Jeez (0.00 / 0)

What is not a right-wing talking point to these guys?

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by: Korha @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 15:03:24 PM CST

"I support Hillary Clinton" (0.00 / 0)

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."

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by: SpitBall @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 15:08:20 PM CST

[ Parent ]

"right-wing talking point" as a talking point (0.00 / 0)

I think this also highlights that the "right-wing" talking point meme is being stretched past its usefulness.  As a charge thrown at Democrats, it has the potential to chill debate and unduly emphasize political conformity.  And here, it's being used completely for tactical advantage and not to illuminate any truth about enforcing certain messages and downplaying others.

There has to be a distinction between using a malicious "right-wing" talking point-- i.e., one that is itself untrue and misleading -- from raising or debating the merits of perspectives that, god forbid, originated from non-Democrats. 

Clearly, there are some "frames" about government that are themselves malicious, and are used maliciously, but throwing around the charge loosely makes nuance an enemy.

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by: spectatus @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 17:56:35 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Bill Clinton has turned into a really nasty character. (4.00 / 3)

I didn't like his centrism but always defended him.  Even after he sold-out the entire country with all that "free" trade nonsense.

No more.  He only cares about the Clintons.  Period.

For some reason, it seems that Obama has some pathological and deep-seated psychological need for Republicans to like him.  Seriously.  It's weird.

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by: avenged savant @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 15:03:46 PM CST

They're really alll selfish (4.00 / 1)

Sure, but when I read a comment like yours I always fall back on this one fact (I think it's a fact) - nearly all politicians/leaders are more about "themselves" than anything else.  We get lucky when a large enough part of these people happens to believe in enough of the same things we do.

True, sometimes for me the egomania tips past a line, and in this case it did.  But generally, I expect selfish behavior and actions.

Would *you* ever run for office?  I wouldn't. 

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by: Crab Nebula @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 15:11:21 PM CST

[ Parent ]

If Hillary can't control Bill in a campaign (0.00 / 0)

How will she control him when she is President (if -) By control I simply mean get him to subordinate his ego to hers and his interests to hers,  After all, she's the candidate.  And if she can't, do we really want her and all this drama for 4 years?

He has become an embarrassment and a detriment to her campaign.  Their desire to get back to the WH is palpable.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

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by: Mimikatz @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 16:28:50 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Just don't attack, Bill (0.00 / 0)

I think it's fine he's campaigning.  But I don't think he or any ex President should be in the attack dog role against Democrats.

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by: Crab Nebula @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 15:07:28 PM CST

Ridiculous (4.00 / 1)

Matt,
I'm black and I do not resent what Bill Clinton is doing for his wife - even against Obama. My wife even feels more strongly. Because - as we regretted from John Kerry and Al Gore - anyone who is not willing to fight for himself (swiftboated) surely can not be trusted to fight for me.

We had great admiration for Bill's willingness to get down and dirty to fight. The elites think he's demeaning himsels but we view it differently. After seeing him in Nevada reminded us why we voted for him.

We feel MLK's legacy allowed Obama to be in the game but not to guarantee an outcome. If Hillary has a better plan than Obama (as I believe) then it does not matter whether my president is a white woman or a black man. Symbolism will NOT provide the best economy and jobs to put food on my table.

It may be generational because one of my college daughters is for Obama though my wife and I and my high-school senior daughter is for Hillary - probably because she's still at home with us...

We are also not high on John Edwards because he has no past record of fighting for 'the cause'. He has listed his achievements from his 'ambulance chasing' law suits which are to some degree self-serving.

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by: melious2 @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 15:11:32 PM CST

you had me until "ambulance chasing." (4.00 / 3)

That's offensive.  You wouldn't be saying that if it was YOUR daughter whose intestines were sucked out of her body by a faulty designed pool drain.

The tort system, increasingly, is the only safeguard to keep the country safe.  God knows the federal government has taken a walk on enforcing safety regulations.

It's obvious by your comment you know nothing about tort law.  And, as such, you ought to refrain from commenting on shit you know nothing about.

For some reason, it seems that Obama has some pathological and deep-seated psychological need for Republicans to like him.  Seriously.  It's weird.

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by: avenged savant @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 15:26:25 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Want to know (0.00 / 0)

What John Edwards did (passed into law) while he was a senator?

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by: melious2 @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 15:43:50 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Not much ,,, (0.00 / 0)

since The Decider was in the White House for most of his time in the Senate ... but then the same could be asked for Hillary

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by: Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 16:19:32 PM CST

[ Parent ]

My dilema (0.00 / 0)

There lies my problem as a voter. I do not have relevant data on John Edwards to at least extrapolate from - just his words and his mutually rewarding (financially speaking) work as an 'injury' lawyer. His record in the senate that I know of (picked up from the debates) are things he now feels he was wrong in voting for, i.e. the bankruptcy bill, the trade bill, the war, etc.

At least with Hillary I have something to go with - SCHIP, voted against the finally passed bankruptcy bill... and an attempt at universal healthcare which she was villified for.

Do you see my dilema as an informed voter?

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by: melious2 @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 18:08:48 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm so sick of the pro-Obama camp (4.00 / 1)

making crap up. Bill Clinton never said that Obama did not oppose the war! he said that he funded it afterwards and removed his speech from his website...

Open Left, if you're gonna endorse a candidate just come out and say it

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by: Jack Frost @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 15:26:55 PM CST

Took the words right out of my, umm, keyboard (4.00 / 1)

Clinton never said any such thing as "Obama did not oppose the war."  He made a series of factual statements calling the consistency of Obama's opposition to the war into doubt.

His point was well taken from my point of view, and I DON'T mean to say that Obama didn't oppose the war while Hillary was voting for the AUMF in '02, nor do I mean to say that Obama doesn't deserve some credit for that distinction.  He does, and she deserves criticism for her decision.

On the other hand, at least until fairly recently, Obama was droning on about having always been against the war to an extent that was reminiscent of Kerry's droning repetition of his medals in Vietnam mantra.  Something that is the basis of a campaign deserves scrutiny, and I think Clinton raised legitimate questions about the continuity of Obama's position.

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by: Trickster @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 15:43:02 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Stoller endorse Obama?? (0.00 / 0)

You've got to be kidding!?!

I can't even believe he wrote this piece.  I came to see how he was going to SUPPORT Wolfson.

Geez, I gotta see what Krugman writes next.

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by: converse @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 17:46:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

A question (4.00 / 1)

I hate to go all Bob Somerby on you, but when did Bill Clinton "claim that Obama didn't oppose the war"?

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by: Upstate Dem @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 15:36:34 PM CST

Obama going after bigdog again (0.00 / 0)

I see it is on now. My take Obama is gonna make the case that Bill is Hill's running mate.....I think it is going to work;

http://tpmelectionce...

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by: gaiilonfong @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 16:10:19 PM CST

If he does that (4.00 / 1)

he'll get his ass handed to him in Feb.

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by: RalphB @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 16:25:02 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Depends on the age group (0.00 / 0)

To many younger people, the Clintons are old fogeys--the age of their parents or even older.  Watching Bill light out against Obama (and watching all of the attack campaigning) feels to them like their parents fighting, and sends them back into their shells.

Middle-aged people like Bill socking it to their political opponents, even the dead Ronald Reagan.  They love all the combat.  At least many seem to.

What price victory?

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

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by: Mimikatz @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 16:35:21 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Obama: The Clinton's Are Meanies! (0.00 / 0)

So Obama went on GMA today to whine about how the Clinton's are being too mean to him?

Pass the smelling salts!

Someone needs to inform the Obama's that this is Presidential politics. Further, if this is how Obama is going to over-react to what has been a very, very, mild and civil campaign, it gives me no confidence in his ability to withstand the the ruthless GOP attack machine.

All of the candidates have spouses who are strongly advocating for their respective spouses. Bill Clinton has every right to make his case as he sees fit.

Further, whatever the media thinks about Bill Clinton is irrelevant. Ultimately, it's for the voters to decide.

And if the the election results and exit polls from NH, MI, and NV are any indication, the voters seem to support the notion that Bill Clinton is OK by them.

Today, Greg Sargent asked Howard Wolfson if Bill Clinton was a liability. He replied, "A few more liabilities like New Hampshire and Nevada, and we'll win the nomination!".

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by: JoeCHI @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 16:51:17 PM CST

Wait (0.00 / 0)

Now, while I don't think criticizing candidates is wrong, but when one does and you want to respond to the charge, then you're being too sensitive? Really? Is that the best you can come up with? Oh, you couldn't, so you just used hyperbole...I see.

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by: BlueLake @ Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 05:57:26 AM CST

[ Parent ]

In your face, Bill (0.00 / 0)

Atlanta mayor takes political shot at Bill Clinton
During the MLK service, Franklin addresses Clinton's reference to Barack Obama's rise as a 'fairy tale'

By AARON GOULD SHEININ
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 01/21/08

With former President Bill Clinton standing not 20 feet in front of her, Atlanta mayor Shirley Franklin took what appeared to be a political shot at the former president's comments about Barack Obama's candidacy.
Speaking at the 40th annual MLK commemorative service at Ebenezer Baptist Church, Franklin said the country is on the "cusp of turning the impossible into reality. Yes this is reality, not fantasy or fairy tales."
Clinton, in supporting his wife Hillary's bid for the Democratic nomination, recently took heat for using the term "fairy tale" to describe Obama's depiction of his stance on the war.
Franklin has endorsed Obama, who spoke from the same pulpit at Ebenezer on Sunday.
Today, after Franklin's remarks, the crowd of more than 2000 rose to its feet - except for Bill Clinton, who sat in his front pew seat and clapped politely.

http://www.ajc.com/m...

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by: converse @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 17:53:48 PM CST

Eh (0.00 / 0)

Obama would have a lot more ground for complaining about Bill if he weren't making misleading statements his own self. According to TPM, one of his complaints is that Clinton is misrepresenting Obama's comments about Reagan.  Here's how Obama described his comments about Reagan to the State:

The State account specifies that Obama told the paper he wasn't praising Reagan's policies. "Obama said was making a point that Reagan reached across party lines in order to snare a large majority of American voters that made it easier for him to push his agenda," the paper reports.

That's pretty clearly not what Obama said about Reagan or certainly not the only thing.  While I agree he wasn't praising Reagan's policies, he did not make that clear at the time and was much more generous to Reagan than this characterization would suggest.

Also, I'm pretty sure Bill Clinton has never said that Obama didn't oppose the Iraq war at its start.  I think what he said was the idea that he'd been some great war opponent was a fairy tale given that his voting record in the Senate on funding.  Now, obviously folks can disagree about that, but I think its an opinion and not a lie.

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by: BDB @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 at 19:18:44 PM CST