Flame Wars

by: Chris Bowers

Tue Jan 22, 2008 at 13:52


In response to primary season flame wars, Digby has turned off her comments temporarily:

The comment threads have become a problem. Some people have forgotten they are interacting with fellow human beings. So we're going to take a little break. They'll be back in a while.

There is not doubt that there is a decent amount of nastiness surrounding this primary campaign, both online and off. Much of it has been charged with vicious gender and racial idioms, which probably makes things much worse for a female blogger like digby who has been focusing much of her writing of late on the gender-related comments of Chris Matthews.

Of course, there is more to it than just sexism and racism. As Matt wrote last week:

The internet is a reflection of the public's sprawling and diverse views, which are brilliant, disgusting, mediocre, and everything in between.  It's a big country, with lots of different people who talk about stuff in different ways.  Some of them are mean.  This isn't a problem, it's just humanity.

That is certainly true, and I think one of the reasons the Village often recoils at the tone of discourse online is because its inhabitants are so thoroughly distanced from the tones of discourse many Americans use when discussing politics. There is nothing unusual about Americans being extremely harsh in political discussions, as most Americans around the country already know. As a nation, we are not a genial country club. We are, instead, a diverse republic with a once mighty modernist public sphere that has rapidly deteriorated into hundreds of micro-spheres, all of their own norms, tones, and trolls.

However, the flame wars we are seeing online goes even beyond the diversity of American opinion and tone, and even beyond sexism and racism still running rampant through many of our micro-public spheres. It is also connected to how the leading Democratic campaigns themselves are functioning as leaders of the Democratic rank and file. First, the campaigns themselves have always been heavily charged with identity politics, no matter how much they claim otherwise:

Chris Bowers :: Flame Wars
Hillary and Obama -- and their surrogates -- would stop saying they don't want people to consider their race or gender in this election. You simply can't have it both ways. You can't highlight the historic nature of your candidacy in one breath and make jokes about blacks being better dancers or say that a black man named Barack Obama had to have hope to get here or ask voters to "help you make history" in the next.

Now, it is heavily ironic for a member of the media to point this out, even though the Nevada debate clearly showed that the Brian Williams and Chris Matthews of the world are the ones who most salivate over discussions of race and gender. Further, the race and gender cards have always been out there, and every President in history has played identity politics on some level. The age card, the region card, the masculinity card, the patriotism card--those are identity politics too, and everyone running for President has played that game. Still, the author has a point. If a campaign argues that being the first woman or being the first African-American to become President would be historic, then that campaign shouldn't pretend that it doesn't want to talk about gender or race. Granted, the campaign doesn't want to talk about it in the crude ways it has been discussed of late, but it still wants to talk about it none the less.

Further, supporters always take cues from the campaigns that they support. I have marveled at how many commenters in the blogosphere seem to be pretty much parroting talking points coming from campaigns. This isn't restricted to supporters of any one candidate. I have seen dozens of Obama, Edwards and Clinton supporters sound perfectly on message about how us vicious online partisans don't understand the national desire for more unity and less partisanship and / or ideology, about how us bloggers are complicit in the corporate blackout of John Edwards, and about how, unlike the unruly, snot-nosed kids online, rank and file Dems love Clinton because she is an experienced fighter for the middle class. I'm not writing this because I think it is something new or that I am in anyway above parroting campaign arguments. Hell, I saw it--and did this myself--back in 2003-4 when I was a Dean supporter. As though I was taking message lessons directly from Dean campaign HQ, I talked about the need to stand up to Republicans, to build a movement, and to favor pragmatism in government instead of ideology. I think the reason I did it this time is because I just didn't find any of the campaign arguments to be quite as compelling to my current political outlook..

Supporters are following the leads of the campaigns themselves, and the result is that the diversity of American opinion, tone, and micro-spheres are brushing up against each other in particularly nasty ways. It will tone down once the primary is over, but no matter who wins it will be a long healing process as supporters struggle with lingering feelings of voter suppression, corporate blackouts, racism, sexism, and other charges the campaigns have made themselves. Such feelings were unavoidable no matter how the primary went down, but both the national media and the campaigns themselves have functionally presented a form of negative leadership that is accentuating these unavoidable problems.

Now, I don't really know how things could have gone differently or better, but I think an increased focus on ideological and policy differences would have helped. Part of the problem with arguing over concepts like "change" and "experience" is that the terms are so empty and vacuous is that the people arguing have never even really made it clear what the arguing was all about. Then again, the media doesn't really cover ideological and policy differences very much, frontrunners always try to blur differences with the candidates they are leading, and there are some really nasty divisions in this country that we need to face up to.

I'm not really sure what to suggest, since there are a lot of factors at play. One thing I will say, however, is that no matter what some pundits and politicians think, the internet and the blogosphere are not the causes of this situation. What the internet has done is pull back the curtain on the myth of a congenial, bi-partisan, post-identity politics America. That was always a myth created by elite political and media types who operate in a privileged world of very narrow demographics that is wholly unreflective of the broader nation. What we are seeing now is very normal for our country. While the internet is simply revealing the true state of our normalcy to a sheltered elite, the truth is that the campaigns and more established media who claim to decry such politics are actually fueling it. There are some nasty divisions in America, and they aren't going away just because Joe Lieberman changed the seating chart on his Senate committee.


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Flame Wars | 51 comments
There is a nasty aspect to politics on the internet (0.00 / 0)
The nasty comes out becomes people can hide behind anonymous screen names (most people anyway) and say things that they would never say to someone they know in person.  On the left and the right, people can feel free to express their inner rage because their identity is cloaked just as the white hood cloaks the Klansman and we see that even progressives have an inner Michelle Malkin. 

On the one hand, it's nice to see the turmoil unhidden, but at the same time, who wants to hang around with a bunch of poo-flinging chimps?

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


The process is working (4.00 / 4)
I mostly disagree with the opening argument here that "the flame wars we are seeing online goes even beyond the diversity of American opinion and tone"

I don't think there is any reason to believe it reflects anything but the opinion of America (weighting for demographics aside). I would agree that the tone is more brazen, but I think this due to the unaccountability of anonymous comments. But this just means people are more open about sharing their real opinion. I personally think thats great. Here is why. I don't think we generally change deep feelings unless those feelings first are aloud to be given voice. People need to hear themselves being too harsh, they need that opportunity for self reflection. And while some would argue that that does not happen, I would suggest that it probably happens a lot more than we give people credit for. And it certainly has a better chance of happening than if people are only allowed to air opinions which are socially acceptable.

I'm not saying that it can't get out of hand and ruin a site or worse lead to real world mob violence. I stopped reading at all at a top "progressive" blog because the situation had become too annoying. But in the long run, that's probably just part of the process, and blogs aren't that sacred. People will tire of yelling at each other, and in a healthy anonymous community they will receive the feedback they need - and they get it in a safe way in which they can let their id go out and make a fool of itself and then grow from the experience. A timeout from a discussion is also good - Digby's move is just part of the process, giving everyone there a moment to reflect. This is not a sign of some apocalyptic development. Its just a time out, its nice.

I think unfettered online anonymous discussion is one of the most healthy things any human population has ever gone through.

This is to say nothing of the fact that sometimes, the angry ranting people are right.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


and i guess you agree (i just finished RTFA) (0.00 / 0)
"What the internet has done is pull back the curtain on the myth of a congenial, bi-partisan, post-identity politics America."

Chris I'm a little confused how you got that closing position (which I obviously totally agree with) from the earlier quote i cited?

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
Avoided in public (0.00 / 0)
Out in the real world we tend to avoid political conversations with those that we disagree with.  Who wants to get in another argument with you friend/father/sister/etc.?

When we do engage, yea, it sounds kind of the same as it does here.  But those that disengage here just leave, we only see the argument half.


[ Parent ]
At least the people who viscerally don't like it leave (4.00 / 3)
There are plenty of articulate people here who do and don't share my views, and mostly I like the discussions.  But after awhile I just want to go for a walk, garden, tune it all out for a few hours or even days.

Those who keep wanting street fighters and bare-knuckles candidates (as opposed to a few of those in the campaign) should be careful what they wish for.

I'm much more worried what it does to that rather large part of the electorate who doesn't have political debate as a hobby.  We need to distinguish between the politics of standing for something and contrast, versus the politics of karate chops and street brawls.  The one is engaging and arouses interest, but the other shuts people out and turns them off.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
I think technology can solve these problems (4.00 / 1)
to me the problem is not that sites only be clean or only be pie fights. I think its a mistake to think that somehow sites have to become censors just to help make their pages more appealing to the less combative. I think there are a lot of technical solutions that nobody is yet using that could good a long way to making mix content sites be appealing to a variety of reader types.

for example, comment ranking could be very reader relative, taking into account whether you have rated the person before, and/or how others you have rated (good or bad) have rated the comment. More complex formulas would also reduce ranking gaming. I'm suggesting going well beyond what slashdot does with its moderated moderators. You could score other users for "good alternative view points" or for "argumentative" etc. Likewise comment branches which are dominated by just a few users (so trend toward bickering) could have an additional scoring value considered.

The key is to use relative weighting to display stuff that would be good for the user to read. Good being interesting, not necessarily agreeing with their standard view point.

The way comments are displayed could be more meaningful to communicating these rankings too. Naturally the collapsed comment is great for hiding the very unproductive. But even using tones of gray on the text, or color backgrounds on titles for emphasizing worthy reading, or degrees of worthiness, could all go a long way to toward helping the reader have a enlightening experience. And like Tivo (or unlike tivo) the site could learn about you and whats good for you to read as time progresses.

Sites could do other intelligent things too like let you know if you are always replying to the same people, and what their scores are like. Or email you if you were commenting for a while and then seemed to disappear - so invite you back and ask you what went wrong. Etc.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
Yes (0.00 / 0)
The flexibility of technology is a key element of our ability to evolve this still-new and expanding arena for political dialog (and action).

And simply being able to choose a site/community to participate in (or even create a new one) from the comfort of your home is a fundamentally empowering opportunity.

I agree that anonymity allows some extra level of self-indulgence in terms of insults, etc., but the non-realtime nature of most exchanges (or at least having that option) also gives us all the opportunity to take a few deep breaths and think a little before adding to the flame wars.

I'm starting to see it as a useful practice to notice which comments attract me and why.  In some respects its sorta therapeutic, not in the sense of just venting and venting, but actually trying to grow out of the tendency to get sucked into the endless venting mode.

Overall, I think the OL community has done a pretty good job of striking a healthy balance at a time when, as Chris notes, identity-driven and other emotional reactions can get to running pretty hot.  I appreciate everyone who contributes to that, since it really is a community effort.  Without that effort and the inclination to make it, its pretty easy for a community to become a mob.


[ Parent ]
More going on here than even what you say (4.00 / 2)
A few other factors:

1. I was keeping tabs on Hollywood United, the WGA's blog.

One thing that is very clear over there, is that paid for shills and hacks, were constantly posting messages, that were anti-WGA, concern trolls, pro APMTP (whatever it is), and that this was a concerted effort, from top down, but made to LOOK as if from being bottom up. "I'm a writer, and I can't believe the WGA.." etc. 

It got to the point where people were spoofing the obvious shills.

I think the same thing has started to happen in the comment sections of the various big liberal blogs.  Example:

a. Before Digby turned comments off, there was one commentor always badmouthing Obama.  One particular comment, he said some particular caustic phrase "empty as the " something or other. 

I was reading Marc Ambinder, and he was talking about "Hilary's new tack is to portray Obama as "empty as the" something.

It was the EXACT SAME PHRASE. 

In points of time - the commentor on Digby, posted first, then Marc Ambinder said what Hilary was rolling out. 

So the Digby commentor was either reading straight from emails from Hilary's campaign, or was a paid shill.

Bottom line - it's going to be impossible to know if the person you are exchanging comments with, right now, is interested in exchanging views or not.

2.  Supposed "trusted netleaders". 

While some major bloggers have been upfront about their preferences - many - who clearly HAVE preferences - or at least anti-preferences - such as Jerome Armstrong - don't actually a preference when they should, but only strategically post on positives, negatives, of their preferred candidate/not preferred candidate - while remaining uncommitted.

The worst extreme of this, is for example Taylor Marsh, who claims no preference, but has been in the bag for Clinton for months, and has been dishonest in her trashing of other candidates.  She has probably ACTUALLY been bought off. 

My paranoia here is, in addition to the obvious distorting effects of passionately pushing your candidate (while perhaps saying you have a preference), there may actually be a black market of paid midlevel bloggers, who aren't copping to it.

Bottom line - right now, you have to look at the midlevel bloggers askance.

3.  Primaries are destroying (for the moment) what would otherwise be unified reactions to events. 

The MSM, and many bloggers, for example, recognized Obama's MLK speech as the best of his life. 

Like his 2004 speech, it was brilliant, as well as being a deep respecting of King himself, and a continuation. 

It seems impossible to me, that if this speech been without a primary in place had been last year (or if Barack was the anointed candidate), ALL liberal blogs and analysts would have rose up in glorious recognition.

But this year, some people recognized, and some people didn't - because recognizing Barack for that speech might give him a boost, which you don't want, if Barack isn't your candidate.

Digby is a perfect example of this.  No one has been more lyrical, for example, in praising Barack's 2004 speech.  But on this one?  Silence.

It makes sense, of course, this is human nature, for all of us.

Bottom line:  We won't get back to our normal instincts of reacting to events, and our normal unity, until there is a final candidate.

So, comment carefully through these liberal thickets.  We be in swamps.


The Real Deal (0.00 / 0)
Sorry, dude, but that wasn't a great speech. It was a good speech, but you're suffering from grade inflation.

For some perspective, check out the real deal--MLK's "Beyond Vietnam".

If Obama were anywhere within a country mile of King, I'd be working for him 24/7, instead of sitting this one out.

A taste:

Over the past two years, as I have moved to break the betrayal of my own silences and to speak from the burnings of my own heart, as I have called for radical departures from the destruction of Vietnam, many persons have questioned me about the wisdom of my path. At the heart of their concerns this query has often loomed large and loud: "Why are you speaking about the war, Dr. King?" "Why are you joining the voices of dissent?" "Peace and civil rights don't mix," they say. "Aren't you hurting the cause of your people," they ask? And when I hear them, though I often understand the source of their concern, I am nevertheless greatly saddened, for such questions mean that the inquirers have not really known me, my commitment or my calling. Indeed, their questions suggest that they do not know the world in which they live.

In the light of such tragic misunderstanding, I deem it of signal importance to try to state clearly, and I trust concisely, why I believe that the path from Dexter Avenue Baptist Church -- the church in Montgomery, Alabama, where I began my pastorate -- leads clearly to this sanctuary tonight.



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Paul (4.00 / 2)
I'm not comparing Obama's speech to King's.  I've only heard a couple of King's speeches, and I'm too young to have heard any of them live.

I'm saying it's the best speech I've heard FROM OBAMA, and the best speech of this cycle, and the best speech I've been moved by, myself.

Don't disagree with MY OWN REACTION, my own INSPIRATION, to a speech I hear, ok?  That's just being petty.

And, even to have a GOOD speech, by a black presidential candidate, that's very worthy of celebration, isn't it?

What do you think of the other points of what I have posted? 


[ Parent ]
My Point Is, That's A VERY Low Standard (4.00 / 1)
You say:

I'm saying it's the best speech I've heard FROM OBAMA, and the best speech of this cycle, and the best speech I've been moved by, myself.

And I'm saying that, unfortunately, that's a very low standard.  It's not your fault; but it's in your power to change.

Obama wants to claim cred from having been a community organizer.  But that cred comes from a place he has yet to touch in the mainstream political speeches he's given--even this one.

I wanted to remind folks of that, not by telling them, but by showing them where to look, to see--to hear--for themselves.

I didn't respond to anything else you wrote because I don't think it's nearly as important.  I think you have generally sound points, but they are secondary in importance to the vast gap between what the Dems are talking about, versus what they need to be taking about.

And I think folks can get in touch with that vast gap if they take the time to listen to King's speech--or even just read it carefully to themselves.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
no, no (0.00 / 0)
It wasn't Obama's best speech because MLK was better! 

or

I'm glad to know Paul finally came around to realizing Obama has been better than MLK.  You know, that one time that was better than this time.  If I follow the logic.

Which way to take the snark...  which way...  ?

:-)

The reality is MLK himself wouldn't be as good as MLK.  He wasn't just a great speaker, he was at a crucial point in history leading a truly noble cause.  Even if Obama lived up to Paul's every dream, it wouldn't compare.  It can't.


[ Parent ]
I'm Not Saying Obama Has To BE MLK (4.00 / 1)
Obviously, MLK wasn't always MLK, even in the midst of those extraordinary times, so I'd gladly go even farther than you have, Mark.

But my point here is not to attack Obama.  It's to attack this whole way of seeing politics, seeing it through the lens of electoral politics, rather than the much broader scope of historical struggle, in which electoral politics is but one small--though no doubt very important--part.

And if I don't get all excited over this speech, it's because:

(1) As a speech, per se, it's not that extraordinary.
(2) As a political act in a presidential campaign, it pales in comparison to actions--one line condemning homophobia in the black community vs. the prolonged nightmare of how he handled the McLurkin affair, for example.

My overall stance toward Obama is not that he's evil, but that he's lacking--and that that lack is unfortnunately quite contagious.  So I strive to illuminate it, in hopes that this will motivate people to fill in what's lacking--not least, Obama himself.  And, since I'm not talking to Obama directly, I also think that if Obama supporters could more honestly confront that lack, they could help move the campaign from within.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I get it (4.00 / 2)
Yep, my days of not getting your point are over.  We still partially disagree, but we've been around that block a few times.

I would love it if Obama brought you in as a political consultant.  It would drive you mad since he still wouldn't do what you really want him to, but the end result would be much better.  The good news is he does seem to be getting better at working more policy into his speeches, but he'll never be what you want.

My hope is, if Obama wins the nomination, the dramatically larger differences between Democratic and Republican positions will naturally drive him to speak more of policy.  The fear of some is the effect will be the opposite.

Hillary, on the other hand, will keep on being Hillary.  No enigma there.


[ Parent ]
Good point (0.00 / 0)
Thanks.

There's also - "I am saying that, if on the MLK scale, MLK himself is 10 out of 10, OBAMA is ELEVEN.

But the scale only goes to 10.

But Obama is 11 - so it sounds louder!

(A little Spinal Tap to lighten the day...) 


[ Parent ]
More like (0.00 / 0)
A 6/10, really.

[ Parent ]
Right (0.00 / 0)
I wouldn't disagree - maybe a 7 - was just more trying to get the joke across.


[ Parent ]
For someone who is "neutral", why are all of your candidate posts Obama negative? (0.00 / 0)
Rather than Obama negative, Hilary negative, Obama negative, Hilary negative, Obama negative, Hilary negative?

Your last 4 candidate diaries are Obama negative, and then one "Hilary - unlikely populist" - which is analystic, and not negative.

You seem to be suffering from the same disease as Jerome Armstrong - claiming "neutrality", while focusing all of your negative comments - of course, helping to "improve", or "bring a better focus" to Obama.

Your acts of posting are not neutral, in candidate specific diaries, despite your claims. 

Now, why is that, of the possible reasons I have listed above.

At any rate, for myself, until you spread your "neutral negative analysis" equally to all candidates, your diaries on Obama, I am viewing as skewed.


[ Parent ]
Clinton's Negatives Are Quite Clear (4.00 / 1)
and her online supporters few and far between, particularly in these parts.

There is nothing terribly complex, interesting or deep that needs to be said in criticism of her.

Obama, however, for better or worse, touches on messing with some of the fundamental pressure points where more radical, more populist, and more morally clear and grounded political tendencies intersect with and potentially impact both the Democratic Party as a whole and the mainstream of American political discourse.

Cinton is not nearly so potentially destructive of progressive potential.  Both her more limited progressive tendencies, and her more establishment tendencies are far more obvious, clear-cut, and well-understood.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Clinton's Negatives Are Quite Clear (4.00 / 1)
No they are NOT...

Pretty diagrams and academic-style navel gazing on Obama negatives aren't dealing with what her negatives are... and how they are going to affect the Democratic PARTY in 2008.

Over at Judical Watch is the start of a dirt campaign on her character, and more importantly style of governance that will, I believe, push her negatives well over the 50 point mark...

http://www.judicialw...

"Cinton is not nearly so potentially destructive of progressive potential."

I have seen no evidence of this... For pete's sake she is the leader of the DLC -- regardless of her voting record that was well and truly protected from the other members of her clan and being in a safe minority for the whole of her senate career.

I used to respect your posts...


[ Parent ]
We ALREADY Know The DLC Is The Enemy (0.00 / 0)
That's my point.

We don't really get the pitfals in Obama's approach.  So there's a lot greater need to explore them.

They can, potentially, go much deeper into the heart of progressive resistence.  And it doesn't even need Obama to be overtly anti-progressive for this to happen.  It's enough for him simply to be deeply--and seductively--mistaken in his worldview.

Now, if I had a half-hour cable show, would I talk a lot more about Clinton's negatives?  Absolutely.

But I don't.  I have a totally different audience here.  One that can get all the Hillary criticism they want or need at hundreds, if not thousands, nay tens of thousands of other outlets.

It's just not the kind of redundancy I'm interested in.

I prefer Steve Reich.  Terry Riley.  Philip Glass.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Case for Clinton (4.00 / 1)
Just to play the contrarian, I think there can be a progressive case made for Clinton.  Let's start with Obama's statement that Reagan changed things in a way that Clinton did not.  Bill Clinton responded very negatively and personally to that in a way that other commentators, obviously, did not.

I believe the Clintons are well aware they didn't leave behind a real legacy.  (Not that they would ever say it.)  That budget surplus took two seconds to destroy and at the end of the day there was nothing else.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Hillary and Bill's number one priority after gaining power again is to leave some lasting legacy that they think the history books will swoon over.

Should Clinton win, that is certainly my hope.


[ Parent ]
That would be cool (0.00 / 0)
Don't know if there is a possibility of it being true, but it would be very very cool!

[ Parent ]
Well, It's Certainly POSSIBLE (0.00 / 0)
But for me, it's right back in there in the same murky territory of trying to figure out what Obama' going to do, only with even less solid leads to theorize about.

Ouiji Board, anyone???

(I concur, however, that if Clinton's to win, and there's to be surprises, let this be the Big One!)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
"That budget surplus took two seconds to destroy" (0.00 / 0)
The point is they had A SURPLUS! Bring me back to the 90s in this case.

Banned for posting five straight diaries.

[ Parent ]
the legacy of a dysfunctional and addictive family. (0.00 / 0)
the bimbo eruptions will rise again (real and imagined and false) and Bill's sex life will be reported on more than Britney's.

the legacy of a dysfunctional and addictive family.


[ Parent ]
If I understand you correctly, then you have a built-in double standard (0.00 / 0)
Mainly, Hilary is so beneath your standard as a progressive candidate, why even speak about her, while Obama, who is running as a progressive candidate, has some "progressive" flaws, but at least is worth talking about.

Is that correct?

I think what that means is, whatever negative analysis you make about Obama, in not meeting your progressive standards, you aren't interested in whether the other candidate meets those standards.

(For example, critizing Obama vague semi-association with black religious leaders with anti-homosexual views, while ignoring Clinton's connection with Rick Warren, who has similar anti-homosexual views.)

This seems to me to fail in two ways.

a.  On a practical level, you need to be saying, you aren't much interested in the primary race (even though discussing the topic de jour that has come up, and impacts the primary).  Because really, the "pure progressive" doesn't exist, and won't win electorally, at least yet.
b.  On an analytic level, it seems to me that part of good analysis, IS to treat the current crops of candidates to the same spectrum view.  This also helps insulate you from favoritism charges, if you are attempting to be strictly neutral. 

Example with homosexuality - an analytic treatise on where ALL THREE CANDIDATES STAND in regards to:

a. Own personal policies towards homosexuals.
b. Major backers policies towards homosexuals.
c. Major religous backers policies towards homosexuals.
d. Analysis of all three candidates failings, regarding any events and locations they may have stayed.

Otherwise, again, it's simply bad, flawed, and incomplete analysis.


[ Parent ]
So, When Do I See Your 45-Page Treatise On Lyndon LaRouche??? (0.00 / 0)
Cause I'm just dyin to read it, don'cha know!

Or, if you have your own good implicit reasons for ignoring Lyndon LaRouche, then why is it a thoughtcrime for my to ignore Clinton?

After all, there are many more people out there bashing Clinton in my place than there are out bashing Lyndon LaRouche.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Is LaRouche running in the Democratic Primaries? (0.00 / 0)


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
A couple of reasons. Also, strange example. (4.00 / 1)
a. As spitball has said, to do this in the primaries, means that you pay attention to the people in the primaries.
b. Your effect.  I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, that what you say is true, regarding building an effective progressive majority.  But, in the MIDST of a primary, and all one gets is diaries of "Obama isn't a good progressive", only focused on Obama, then it begins to look like the other candidates are FINE with you, re: Progressivism.  It looks like you ARE playing favorites, as,  per Josh Marshall, everything IS going to be interpreted in the light of the horserace.  So effectively, you muddy the waters.
c. Doing "purity progressive" posts during the primaries, is simply impractical, isn't it?

Lyndon Larouche? 

Um, a couple of more paragraphs on the active candidate running, on the same issue?  No 45 page treatise required, just broaden your posts a bit.


[ Parent ]
The Moment You Start Paying My Paycheck (0.00 / 0)
Is the moment I start explaining to you why you're wrong.

Until then, I don't even owe you an explanation.

I do what I do, because I see the need for it.

And it ain't about purity.  Not within a country mile. 

And the fact that you could misread it that badly?

Now, that's what I'm writing about.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
At an impasse (0.00 / 0)
Which is fine.  Let the exchange end here.

Others can judge the valid or flawed points, as they see fit.


[ Parent ]
There are negatives and negatives (4.00 / 1)
Hillary has negatives in terms of her politics, which folks can and have discussed.  But she also, for a variety of reasons, inspires a great deal of venom in a significant portion of the public, to say nothing of the punditocrisy.  How that will play out, and its effect on the electorate generally and on down-ticket races, for example, is not something we have discussed much. 

My feeling is that we have seen only the tip of the iceberg in terms of Hillary's negatives of the second kind, should she become the nominee.  As a woman who is even older than Hillary, I think that is grossly unfair to her.  But she does seem to make a great many men and some women feel very inadequate, or unsure of their place in some very deep level, or something, and that, along with the high school mentality of so many, results in all the venom.  I do fear that that will swamp her candidacy in the end.

Plus, I'm a little tired of politics as combat-to-the-death and am yet again becoming very pessimistic whether we will be able to make progress on our very serious problems in the next 25-30 years, in short, in what remains of my lifetime.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
HRC might compensate with women (4.00 / 1)
The upside of Hillary is that the backlash effect of the "tears" (if that indeed was causal) is replicated.....I think women might come out of the woodwork for her.  Maybe.  I'd rather not gamble on her, but I'm not pessimistic. 

[ Parent ]
Destructive (0.00 / 0)
Obama, however, for better or worse, touches on messing with some of the fundamental pressure points where more radical, more populist, and more morally clear and grounded political tendencies intersect with and potentially impact both the Democratic Party as a whole and the mainstream of American political discourse.

Cinton is not nearly so potentially destructive of progressive potential.

I'd like to hear more on what you mean by Obama being "potentially destructive of progressive potential".

I assume you mean that Obama is redefining 'progressive' as having nothing to do with policy and everything to do with process and temperament.

The divide between liberalism and conservatism is often one of cooperation versus competition.  (Ideally, ignoring the interests of big money who've co-opted the libertarian message.)  I assume you are most worried about the cooperative philosophy dominating the political arena while being trounced in the policy arena.

Or, perhaps, you mean something completely different.


[ Parent ]
That's A Good Enough First Approximation For Me! (0.00 / 0)
I assume you mean that Obama is redefining 'progressive' as having nothing to do with policy and everything to do with process and temperament.

The divide between liberalism and conservatism is often one of cooperation versus competition.  (Ideally, ignoring the interests of big money who've co-opted the libertarian message.)  I assume you are most worried about the cooperative philosophy dominating the political arena while being trounced in the policy arena.

Though I hope to have more to say this weekend.  For now, though, that will do nicely.

Thanks.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The blogosphere (0.00 / 0)
already hates Clinton because of the DLC and her hawkishness. The rest is a man or panderer thing (Edwards vs. Obama).

Banned for posting five straight diaries.

[ Parent ]
I attribute a lot of the heat to the fact that many of us (4.00 / 2)
are approaching this election as a battle between personality cults. People are very invested in this and they take things very personally. Issues are pretty much beside the point. Perhaps it's in part because people who are new to politics are over-represented online. I lay a lot of the blame for that at the feet of the candidates. I think narcissism has led some candidates to make this hugely important election about them. Their supporters followed their cue and took it and ran. A solid grounding in sports fandom and reality TV informs their actions more than any sense of the value of civic discourse. That's what you get in a society that considers it "rude" to talk face to face about politics, to people with whom you disagree.

That's the (0.00 / 0)
Identity politics he's referring to, IMO. And narcissism among presidential candidates?! Say it ain't so! How dare someone who thinks they should be president say so assertively! Sorry but it just seems a little obvious that such things are not in any way unusual. Look at the Republicans, in fact, to see how different factions campaigning against one another can make the campaign look real, real dirty. (Mitt helped with that, too)

[ Parent ]
You're conflating EGOTISM with NARCISSISM. (0.00 / 0)
Narcissism is characterized by (among other criteria):

a grandiose sense of your importance (e.g. exaggerating your achievements and talents, and/or expecting to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

a sense of entitlement,

a need for excessive adulation,

a delusional belief in your own singular specialness

interpersonal exploitation

With the fate of the Constitution and the federal courts in the balance, global warming edging toward its tipping point, worldwide depression looming, and of course Iraq stinking up the middle east, these two want to "make history".

Sure, neither one of them has much experience running in contsted elections or running anything for that matter. But it's their turn, damn it! Just because no woman or non-white person has ever won before, doesn't mean it can't happen for someone as unique and special as they are. After all, all those adoring fans can't be wrong. If their candidacies means that our party risks losing, so be it. Besides, They're so very very special there're really no risk involved. Did I mention it's their  turn?


[ Parent ]
Agree, (0.00 / 0)
and it has also become a sign of weakness (if not impending senility) to be able to hear anything of any value in what the opposition is saying, whether it is the other (Dem) candidate or, worse, any Republican living or dead.  That isn't a particularly enlightened or generous approach.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
Not even if we hope really, really hard? (4.00 / 1)
There are some nasty divisions in America, and they aren't going away just because Joe Lieberman changed the seating chart on his Senate committee.

There is a debt to be settled, and I don't want any effin unity with anybody I'd rather see in jail.  Next comes the aiders and abetters,  keep your powder dry and impeachment is off the table, Reid and Pelosi.  I don't wany unity with them either.  This country is in a huge mess, and it isn't politics as usual.  I want someone to kick ass and take no prisoners. 

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  


Hope is weak (0.00 / 0)
Toughness is strong! Must hate other side...must hate...

[ Parent ]
It's not so much weak as it is (0.00 / 0)
beside the point and with regard to finding ground with the republicans, unwarranted to the point of being delusional. The healing and transformative properties of HOPE. Please. Am I the only one who's reminded of Patrick Swayze's character in Donnie Darko?

[ Parent ]
It isn't hate, it is righteous anger (4.00 / 1)
for people who use and abuse power for personal gain at the expense of others.  I don't want to sit down with Bush, Cheney, their voters, or any of the Democrats in DC who allowed and facilitated the destruction they wrought on others.

We have criminals in the WH, and some are asking others to forget and unify with them.  No way, not now, not until they have been held accountable.  Justice is not just for poor people.

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  


[ Parent ]
The MSM and campaigns (0.00 / 0)
are behind the blogosphere in this sense. These issues are hashed out on the internet before they hit the MSM and the campaigns.

Identity politics is integral to each candidate while they promote their values and policies. The MSM, campaigns and blogosphere should focus on the issues and progressive values and have substantive discussions about sexism, racism, classism and homophobia.

Early on in the Clinton administration, Clinton held town hall meetings to talk about race but Republicans and the corporate media put an end to that immediately. Remember that? Here we are 15 years later doing it on the web.



Banned for posting five straight diaries.


Oddly enough, I came into this thread so that I could say exactly the opposite thing. (4.00 / 2)
It occurred to me yesterday that the blogosphere still does a really really bad job at not following the media/campaign narrative.  We just spent a year online talking about the same stupid shit the campaigns talk about, and they talk about that stupid shit because that's what the media is willing to cover.

Experience vs change.

"Honesty."

"He said trial lawyers!"  "She said drivers' licenses!"  "He took lobbyist money, while I only took money from lobbyists' wives and children!!!"

This has been a really petty, vapid year online, in a lot of ways.  We've mostly been arguing about the same meaningless narratives that the campaigns created to woo the press and the low-info voters.  There have been a few exceptions, most of which came from this blog's frontpage, but really the blogosphere has been lost in the same swill that has been out there all along.

We need to find a way to change that.  We need to heighten our ability to choose our own issues to talk and think about, and force others to deal with them publicly (FISA is probably the shining example of that this year).  We really need to create our own subject material, a la the talk-radio-sphere, rather than just react to the subjects and arguments that the MSM-sphere chooses to "frontpage."


[ Parent ]
Identity politics (0.00 / 0)
Sexism, racism, classism and homophobia are discussed in the blogosphere and not in the MSM or campaigns.

re: narratives. Matt, Chris et al have been great at creating narratives too. Actually, the campaigns get all their talking points from blogs now.

Banned for posting five straight diaries.


[ Parent ]
FWIW (4.00 / 4)
I think the tone is much more civil here then on several other sites, which I appreciate very much.

I completely agree (0.00 / 0)
I can't even read MYDD right now. 

People really don't get nasty here.  People at MYDD are awful - worse than DKOS.


[ Parent ]
Flame Wars | 51 comments
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