The Internal Logic Of Barack Obama's Campaign

by: Chris Bowers

Sun Jan 27, 2008 at 07:55


Here is Obama's victory speech from last night:



It is a pretty good speech. It hits on all of his major campaign ideas, arguments, slogans, and talking points, with an overarching focus is on a changed, unified, more diverse America. Two points from the speech really stuck out to me, both of which provide important insights into the fundamental core of Obama's campaign.

More in the extended entry.
Chris Bowers :: The Internal Logic Of Barack Obama's Campaign
First, just like during his Iowa victory speech, at one point the crowd broke out into chants of "U-S-A! U-S-A!" I didn't watch Clinton's Nevada victory speech (had to clean because me parents were coming into town), but I don't remember that happening during her victory speech in New Hampshire. It seems as though Obama's broad, sloganeering, focus on a changed America is something that his activist supporters have really taken to heart. There is a very strong patriotic element to Obama's campaign that isn't being commented upon much.

Second, Obama puts forth one of his central arguments that change has not happened because we are bitterly divided:

[about 5:10 in] We are looking to fundamentally change the status quo in Washington. It's a status quo that extends beyond any particular party. And right now, that status quo is fighting back with everything it's got, with the same old tactics that divide and district us from solving the problems that people face, whether those problems are health care that folks cannot afford or mortgage they can not pay.(…)

[about 6:40 in] We are up against decades of bitter partisanship that cause politicians to demonize their opponents instead of coming together to make college affordable or energy cleaner.

The lack of affordable health care, the ongoing mortgage crisis, the lack of renewable energy, and the cost of college were caused by bitter partisanship? That just doesn't make any sense to me. The failure to pass progressive solutions on all of those areas of policy might be due to partisanship, but it is due to Republicans in the Senate and the White House staunchly opposing solutions to all of these problems. Unless one believes that Republicans oppose solutions on these issues simply out of spite and resentment from the vicious attacks we Democrats have sent their way, I have a difficult time seeing how partisanship that goes beyond one party is responsible for the lack of positive legislation on these issues.

Now, Obama supporters will claim that what he is really saying is that in order to pass solutions to these problems, it takes a much larger, working progressive majority in Washington, D.C. According to this theory, Obama isn't talking about being nicer to Republicans. Instead, he is talking about removing conservatives from both the Democratic and Republican parties in order to create a majority in Washington that won't oppose progressive solutions. This is a possible reading of Obama's argument, and one that is reasonably in line with the arguments made on this blog (remove Republicans and Bush Dogs) and with speeches I have heard form, say, Russ Feingold (who never ceases to remind people that Democrats were in charge of the Senate in 2002 when the AUMF against Iraq was passed). However, given Obama's unwillingness to talk in ideological terms (Obama rarely uses the word progressive, and never used it in either his Iowa or South Carolina victory speeches, from what I could tell), that is a difficult reading to swallow. Then again, to continue the tit for tat, Obama supporters would argue that by positioning his policies as common sense, common ground, or moderate that, since his policies are progressive, Obama is redefining the center as progressive.

Personally, I don't think it is as complicated as the arguments in the above paragraph indicate. Instead, I simply think that when he presents his argument on how he would change Washington, Obama is trapped in the larger logic of his campaign. Fundamentally, the rhetoric of Obama campaign is about the possibility of a more diverse America that ultimately only he is able to bring into being because of his diverse background. Since he is constantly talking about a broad coalition that crosses racial, ethnic, generational, partisan, regional, ideological and other such boundaries, he more or less forced to blame the lack of solutions in Washington on the lack of this coalition.  To put it one way, a campaign can't have two central arguments. If Obama is staking his main appeal on the possibility of a broad, diverse coalition, then he can't blame the lack of progress in Washington on, say, big corporations. There is only room for so many ideas in a successful electoral campaign, and Obama is right that his main appeal to voters is an identity politics appeal of a changed America. Young voters, highly educated voters, African-Americans and non-Democrats all like him for this reason. As such, he doesn't really have any choice but to blame the lack of progress on the lack of a broad, diverse, coalition that "unifies" currently disparate parts of America. He knows what his main appeal is, and whatever your main appeal is needs to become the central argument of your campaign.

Obama came from academia, but a campaign isn't a format where nuanced, intellectual arguments can be made. He has to blame national division for the lack of solid legislative solutions in Washington, because fundamental he appeals to voters is as a figure who can end, or at least soften, many of our existing national divisions. One of the end results of this campaign seems to be a large, dedicated group of activist supporters who have taken a vision of a diverse, forward looking America as central to our national fortunes. While it does not place enough understanding on the role of the conservative movement in creating many of the major national problems we face (health care, Iraq, mortgage crisis, global warming), it is still a pretty positive outcome nonetheless. It should also be noted that when Obama said the status quo "extends beyond any particular party," no one applauded. So, while his campaign might be trapped in a certain logic, even his most ardent supporters are freer and a lot more partisan than the rhetoric coming from the stump.


Tags: , , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
He's talking over people's heads... (0.00 / 0)

.............I have a blogmate who has reams of info on how financial interests control everything. Possible true, sort of an Illuminati for the 21st Century, but of little use and  a possible negative when it comes to getting people to believe that change is possible. Especially since to most people 'change' means more money in their pocket not more efficient cars, solar power, universal not-for-profit healthcare although that is slowly beginning to change, heh...lots of Senator O's favorite word here, but Obama isnt' even talking about my points.

Let him get in a fight with McCain/HuckaBee and they'll define his 'change' as something, I have no idea what, that no one would want. Obama doesn't seem to understand that he has to be specific about what he is proposing, still a mystery even to us in the 'sphere, and he has to name names and not allude to vague 'opposition'.

Conclusion: He ain't gonna make it with this lukewarm b.s.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


why be bipartisan with a criminal organization? (4.00 / 7)
The sudden calls for bipartisanship once the democrats took over congress (which digby had predicted) always amount to "democrats need to concede to republicans/big business". It's a myth that bipartisanship in these times is something to glorify----why should anyone try to negociate with these blood thirsty war profiteers who have torn the country to shreds?

I hate the fact that Obama has made bipartisanship so central to his campaign, but this post does help explain the necesstiy for it. However, I fear that all this talk from both Obama and Clinton is really a dog whistle to the big money donors that as President they'll be there for them when it counts. So when large numbers of residual forces and private contractors happen to stay in Iraq until the oil is gone, it'll because of the need to be bipartisan.


Also, By Definition, Those Not With Him Are "Cynics" (4.00 / 5)
He decries the politics of division, but he ends up glibly dismissing folks who saw his campaign falter as "cynics."  Also "cynics" were those who believed in someone else.  This sort of language in a Republican would trouble us.  But in Obama, not so much.

It's entirely possible that my memory is playing tricks on me--it's been 20 years, after all--but for all of Jesse Jackson's supposed militancy and extremism that Obama doesn't have, I can't ever remember Jackson resorting to such cheap, ill-focused jabs.  He had very specific objections to very specific examples of objectional policies, practices and behaviours.  He was fighting against blurring, fighting for clarity. And when he did complain about the media and/or pundits, he had plenty to complain about.  He was not an insider darling, running against someone the establishment hated.

This may, as you say, all reduce down to the fact that a campaign needs one basic argument, and this is simply the fallout from Obama's.

But, in my mind, that simply goes to show that there's a never-ending flow of questionable consequences that flow from that basic choice.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


I honestly think the core issue is that he and those (4.00 / 3)
support his message think they are smarter than everyone else, and therefore, everyone will simply wait for his to fill in the blanks rather than the GOP will simply eventually do it for him.

[ Parent ]
I Think There's An Element of That, Too Be Sure (0.00 / 0)
And it probably explains a lot.

But I'm usually loathe to ascribe single causes for any social phenomena.

Multiple regression analysis is always the order of the day.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I am only referring to those who follow this sort of stuff (0.00 / 0)
as to their reasoning. There all sorts of reasons why people support Obama, Clinton etc. I have a friend support CLinton point blank because she's a woman, and I 've got friends support Obama because he's black, and as they say "yeah he's full of shit but so are the others, and at least he's black." So when I am talking about this I am referencing the portion of the population that follows politics beyond specator sport and think about it as something more than they need to make up their mind a couple of days before elections etc. Most of my frineds in the later category- ie, they figure it out a few days before hand. but, those aren't the people who are going to even know what obama has said in a speech much less knowing how he parsed it etc.

[ Parent ]
Not so far off the mark (4.00 / 10)
This am I had an interesting conversation about cynicism with my partner, prompted by my choking up when I read Caroline Kennedy's endorsement of Obama.  I'm notorious here for supporting Obama and seeing in him echoes of the JFK who so energized those of us who were in college when he was President.  My partner is more reluctantly supporting Obama but afraid to get her hopes up.  She was born in 1951, I in 1942.  My generation was the last to come of age in a time of hope like that.  She was a teenager when JFK was shot, and King and RFK.  Then came Nixon and the Vietnam War dragging on.  She had liked Carter because he seemed genuinely to care about social justice, but he was so ridiculed by the DC establishment.  Then Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush.  No wonder so many people under 62 are cynical!  How awful to always think that anything good in politics will be snatched from you, so better not to care too much except about ideas and concrete policies.

We agree, however, that cynicism is extremely corrosive, and is a major factor turning young people away from politics.  And the kind of too-good-to-care-too-much, above it all theorizing is its own kind of escape.

All of which is by way of saying that I do think Obama means what he says, but that he is really inviting the GOPer followers (not their leaders and paymasters) into his coalition, and does not demand of them as a prerequisite that they confess their sins in having been taken in by Reagan and the Bushes. 

The People on the whole aren't stupid--they know conservatism has failed.  They saw it with Schiavo and Katrina and Iraq in 2005 and the country has not been the same since, as seen in the 2006 election, even if the DC Dems haven't caught up to this.  They don't really need to be hit over the head with it--what do you think the 75% wrong track numbers are about?  As Paul keeps pointing out, a large majority support Democratic programs and policies.  Obama is giving people a chance to vote for these policies and programs now that they see the failure of conservatism without making them feel stupid or evil if they voted GOP in the past.  He is giving them the room to come over. 

It is the GOP leadership he is marginalizing (and the Clintons now too, to some extent).  He is trying to build a coalition that can make them irrelevant.  This would be a real realignment, bigger even than what Reagan did.  Based upon nominal Republicans I know, I think this is something real and significant.

And I did hear him say "progressive" last night.


John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
As a (0.00 / 0)
cynical 36 yr old, I needed to hear this (even if half of me is going - yeah right).  Thanks & I "hope" you are right.

[ Parent ]
Progressive politics (4.00 / 1)
Obama didn't use the word "progressive" I'll grant that.  But he did twice very clearly say that lobbyists and big money were a large part of the problem, and his message is progress toward health care for all, cleaner energy, better education with adequate resources, better wages, help with foreclosures, shared sacrifice and shared prosperity, ending the war and ending the culture of distraction that keeps us diverted from seeing and solving problems.  If those aren't progressive goals, we aren't on the same page.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
what you call cynacism (4.00 / 3)
I call skepticism. You can hope all you want. So can I. That's not what accountability and good government is about. It's about skepticism and making sure that every idea, every person, every strategy, eveything is tested beyond just hoping. Hope is the begining, not the end of what we need.

[ Parent ]
I Hope You Are Right Mimi (0.00 / 0)
About what Obama is up to.  But I just keep seeing things that don't fit, and it's not cynical to point them out.  It's simply honest and prudent.

Furthermore, as I've pointed out before, realignments result from massive historical forces, and we've been heading for one for some time now, regardless of who heads the ticket.  The question is, "What will whoever do with the potential handed to them?"

Reagan, btw, did not produce a realignment.  The realignment--or de-alignment, more properly--came with Nixon's election in 1968 (again, not that he caused it), which kicked off the only era in US history characterized by a predominance of divided government.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Reagan (0.00 / 0)
No, but Reagan solidified and personified the realignment.  The realignment was complete by the 1984 reelection.

Obama also does not claim to be one to produce a realignment, but one who can solidify and personify the realignment.  What is why we compares the two electorates as both being ready for change in historically unique terms.

You, of course, are being more historically specific and accurate, but the central points of the realignments are not that far off.


[ Parent ]
No, This Simply Isn't True (0.00 / 0)
Reagan was deified by the media, following the rightwing lead.  But the basic de-alingment--the switch to divided government--wss present from the beginning under Nixon.  Other ways of thinking about political alignment point to other significant points--such as 1994 or 2000.  There is nothing singular about Reagan in this process. Nothing.

For example, Some will point to the fact that the GOP won control of the Senate in 1980.  But they lost it back in 1986, so that can't count as a realignment.  (In fact, it was Jesse Jackson who played a key role in that, by registering so many black voters in the South that he gave Dem challengers the edge they needed in several Southern Senate races.)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Reagan did realign the country (0.00 / 0)
Before Reagan there were two parties not far apart in ideology. There was little room for bible-thumping tax-cut obsessed antiunion antiregulatory types. Reagan converted the Republican party to movement conservatives and then got them in control of the country. That's quite a realignment.

[ Parent ]
Sources of cynicism (4.00 / 1)
Perhaps the most cynical force in our politics, and the one that most clearly practices the "too smart to be fooled" kind of knowing above-it-allness is the Press.  The kind of knowing, insidery snark personified by Mark Halperin and others.  They seem to really not care about what happens to individuals or to the country as a whole so long as they get their scoop and get to look clever.  That's really who I had in my mind. 

It was kind of funny to watch them on MSNBC last night try not to be moved, or show that they were moved, by Obama's speech. 

Of course he isn't going to magically unite the country or wave a wand and give us health care.  But think of the Congress we are likely to see in Jan, and the possibilities that are opened up when Bush is gone.  Always assuming, of course, that he does go.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
Hey! That's what I said! (0.00 / 0)
"The People on the whole aren't stupid--they know conservatism has failed.  They saw it with Schiavo and Katrina and Iraq in 2005 and the country has not been the same since, as seen in the 2006 election, even if the DC Dems haven't caught up to this.  They don't really need to be hit over the head with it--what do you think the 75% wrong track numbers are about?  As Paul keeps pointing out, a large majority support Democratic programs and policies.  Obama is giving people a chance to vote for these policies and programs now that they see the failure of conservatism without making them feel stupid or evil if they voted GOP in the past.  He is giving them the room to come over."

Nice post.


The everyday people of the whole earth are ready to run the sphere in peace.


[ Parent ]
Agreed on the fight for clarity (4.00 / 4)
Great point about clarity as opposed to blurring Paul. Obama talks often about the cynics and partisans that are dividing this country, but he never names names or suggests specific policies to change this.

I wish Obama would go after blatant racists like Rush Limbaugh instead of suggesting that we should forget our divisive politics and try negotiating with these sort of people. In more general terms, I wish Obama would care much more about what the far left thinks about him than the far right.


[ Parent ]
Why reveal all your cards... (0.00 / 0)
until you have too...

There's still a long ways to go...

He's running high on presentation and narrative... He's playing it right...  His, confidence, wit and composure is getting better too.

If he can get some real heavy hitters behind him to "boost" the experience mantra -- I think he could carry it to the next level.

I just hope he doesn't bring more Bob Casey's into the party like the Clintons and DLC want to do!!!!



[ Parent ]
Experience (0.00 / 0)
Obama is older than Bill Clinton was in 1992, and he has much more experience in foreign affairs, with 4 years in the Senate and much travel abroad.  He has about the same number of years of governmental service as Bill Clinton, but in a much bigger state than Arkansas.

Hillary basically has experience in Arkansas politics, and 16 years in DC.  Neither has been an executive.  Obama's point is that "experience" doesn't only come from DC, because (the DC Dems are the prime example) too much time in Washington narrows your thinking and excludes too much from what is "possible."

Ted Kennedy has endorsed him (in addition to Caroline's Times op-ed), and he also got the SF Chronicle this morning.  They were very impressed with him during his sit-down with them.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
Yeah, that sounds about right (4.00 / 1)
We need to unite this country, and all those who don't support me are against uniting!

At the same time, I still don't think he has any alternative. The logic of his campaign does mesh up with why many people support him.
 

[ Parent ]
vmackey Does Make A Very Telling Point, However (0.00 / 0)
To wit:

I wish Obama would go after blatant racists like Rush Limbaugh instead of suggesting that we should forget our divisive politics and try negotiating with these sort of people.

There are powerful racist voices on the right, and they all get to blur together with the respectable sorts.  In fact, in many cases they are the respectable sorts.  And Obama could still maintain a unity theme while calling out particular bad actors for particular bad acts.  He needs to show some toughness sooner or later, and this would be an excellent way to do that, set the terms of engagement.

This would, in turn, cause wider divisions on the right, disrupt the solidarity that allows different forms of racism to blend together, and fringe racist ideas to repeatedly move into the mainstream, as David at Orcinus has been demonstrating for so long.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Things will be different after the nomination (0.00 / 0)
Right now Obama has to beat Hillary and Bill.  His tactic is to expand the Democratic electorate, flooding the zone as it were and diminishing the influence of the Dem-establishment (Hill's people.)  It's a longshot, but he's doing pretty well.

The everyday people of the whole earth are ready to run the sphere in peace.

[ Parent ]
Exactly How Will It Be Different After The Nomination? (0.00 / 0)
To date, he has been running to the right of Clinton. There is no reason to believe he will not run even further to the right during the GE.

[ Parent ]
Particularly When The Village Turns Against Him (4.00 / 1)
Hey, I forgot to leave anything to say in the comment itself!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
the rhetoric coming from the stump. (0.00 / 0)
Obama and the rhetoric coming from the stump are scaring the hell out of me.  What is he talking about?  Who knows.  He's a Rosack test for the admiring faithful to find whatever they please.  His faithful and believing followers hang on his every word as if he and it have just come down from the mountain top.  This whole thing is OT.

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
Dividing the Left (4.00 / 3)
Yes, by use of "cynics" and now "false hope," he continues his pattern of dividing the left.  That's my ultimate fear with Obama: he's a Trojan horse.  It's one thing to rally around a progressive issue and fight the right (e.g. Social Security), it's another thing to fight Obama himself, his movement, and the GOP on progressive issues.  Instead of fighting against a common enemy, we'll be divided.  This is especially true since he fails to blame the actual source of all this: movement conservatism and corporate interests.  Since we're the hope, we're also going to be to blame.  Hell, Obama supporters already blame me for not "believing" enough in him.

Movements only have power when they're built on ideological grounds.  "Partisan" and "ideology" seem to be four-letter words to his movement; one is to have faith in Obama not necessarily progressivism (i.e. Obama defines what we stand for).  How this Obama movement will be truly successful is beyond me.


[ Parent ]
I Hope Mimi's Right And Your Ultimate Fear Is Wrong (4.00 / 1)
But "Hope is not a plan" and I shouldn't need to consult a Ouji board to know what the heck I'm voting for.

Why is this such a controversial notion?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Because you are not a part of the cult... (0.00 / 0)
Believe, hope, change, unity with no facts is another bridge to nowhere - if we are lucky.  If we aren't so lucky, god knows where this messiah is going to take this country.  I'm not buying him or his religiosity on the issue of him. 

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
Cult (0.00 / 0)
Funny how there are some people out there that cannot accept someone else has a different opinion based on the same data.  They cannot accept that reasonable people can disagree.  They cannot accept that people can be both passionate and reasonable at the the same time, despite being quite passionate themselves.

Some must come up with excuses for other's conclusions and claim they are in a cult.

Sad.


[ Parent ]
without definitions to define what is meant (4.00 / 2)
its pretty much is faith that you are asking people to run on. you simply in the real world can't have it both ways. eventually peo will call you on it.

[ Parent ]
Nope (0.00 / 0)
I understand you complaint about Obama.  I think they are largely reasonable but ultimately incorrect.  I don't need to make up strange theories to explain your disagreement.

[ Parent ]
To take him on faith is cult like. (4.00 / 1)
Obama has mesmerized impressionable youth, and he has provided black minorities with an opportunity to seize a dream.  These two demographics are enamoured, and their passion is overwhelming all attempts to reason.  Looking at Obama's patterns in government, it is noted that he often negotiates and seeks unity with Republicans and corportions.  If his past behavior is any indicator of our future with Obama, and I believe it is, he will simply be another status quo Democrat like Pelosi and Reid, which isn't my idea of change. 

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
Oh talking about having a 'messiah' complex... (0.00 / 0)
Check Hills and her Prayer Group(s)

That creeps the hell out of me~!

Hillary Clinton: The Faith Angle
http://hotlineblog.n...

Oh yeah and Kenneth Starr is giving her campaign $$$ now.//

That too creeps me out

Kenneth Starr's Law Firm Gives More Money to Clinton
http://www.bloomberg...


[ Parent ]
Cults, mesiahs, passionate faith, (4.00 / 1)
it is all scarier than hell whether it is Bush, Hillary or Obama. 

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
Say, Didn't They Call The Wind Messiah??? (0.00 / 0)
Oops!  Never mind!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I know, I know,,, (0.00 / 0)
I nedd to ediit befor eye poste. :) When I write, I just write. Grammar, spelling, punctuating, pfft!  Along the way, I clean it up.  On blogs, the cleaning up part never seems to get done. I keep vowing to stop, but that never seems to happen either.

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
Edwards (0.00 / 0)
Don't forget Edwards!  Sheesh, he's still in the race you know.  And his supporters are just as passionate as the others.

And yes, passion can be scary.


[ Parent ]
It's been my exerience that Edwards supporters (4.00 / 1)
are often passionate, but I've never witnessed the kind of messianic devotion that attends Obama (and GW Bush) and to a much lesser degree, Clinton.

[ Parent ]
The only current candidate with "rock star" (4.00 / 1)
as one of his claims to fame is Obama.  Edwards is a non-entity.  Clinton is another corporate Clinton.  Obama is like the Pope. He has lots of inspiring (to some) speeches and large crowds of admiring and devout followers.  Obama is the current messiah.  GW is last cycle's model.

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
I think I get your point (0.00 / 0)
You would prefer a more substantive basis for Obama's candidacy than he has been willing, or able, to provide.

Even when his apparent position seems to disagree with your analyses that are based on tables, charts, and a deep understanding of the political history of the US - if he would offer a fact-based retort to your positions, you might take him a bit more seriously.

You don't think that hope and faith are a solid foundation upon which to base a candicacy, or a presidency.

(Did I get that approximately right?)

But, ain't HOPE and FAITH at the root of any candidacy?

Is Obama the only candidate that is asking us to have faith that he will do good things for our nation if he is elected?

Isn't the insider and potential dynastic president, Hillary Clinton, also asking us to have faith that she will change the very system that gave her political power?

Isn't the born-again populist/progressive, John Edwards, asking us all to have faith that he has truly taken this message to heart and isn't going to revert to his more bi-partisan persona that he displayed in the Senate?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
You've Got Me Pretty Much Right (0.00 / 0)
I don't have to have Obama agree with me.  Just give me a reasonable "fact-based retort," like you said.

But then you make a slightly disingenuous argument. Sure, all candidacies are founded on hope and faith. But they also have some substance you can point to.  And this is what I'm finding damn hard to make sense of where Obama is concerned.  Not because there is no substance, I'm not saying that.  But because it's found in pdfs rather than flowing out of his mouth when the spotlight's on him, when and where it could really count.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
That sounds like a tactical critique (0.00 / 0)
"this is what I'm finding damn hard to make sense of where Obama is concerned.  Not because there is no substance, I'm not saying that.  But because it's found in pdfs rather than flowing out of his mouth when the spotlight's on him, when and where it could really count."

I mean - you're finding fault with his tactics, not his substance.  Of course, I may simply be giving him credit for actually having a strategy, rather than simply missing opportunities.  It may well be that these tactics are setting him up for major trouble in the GE (if he can make it that far), but I don't see that either of his major opponents in the primaries can promise a GE campaign that is not fraught with troubles from the GOP - much along the lines of those I alluded to in my previous post.

Given the general sense of the electorate, low-info or otherwise, I think (I hope?) that Obama's relative "freshness" and "youth" (he's my age, so its hard to call him a "youth") can provide an intangible boost to his candidacy in the GE that Clinton or Edwards cannot seem to muster.  I know, I know, its a sad state of affairs when the selection of the US president comes down to intangibles, rather than facts and figures.  Call me a cynic, but I think this is the reality of our current political system - it is fact adverse.  Style DOES trump substance.  I'm not saying this is right, or good - just that it appears to be the case.  Case in point: the invasion of Iraq was quite popular in the beginning.  Nothing Bush said was based in fact, and his cowboy/flyboy style - along with Cheney's stern, matter-of-"fact", staunchness - made the case. 

To paraphrase Rummy: You don't go into a campaign with the electorate you WANT, you go in with the electorate you HAVE.  As much sense and critical thought that your diaries display - I don't think that the bulk of voters put as much thought into their choices as do you.

More importantly - I don't think that any one of the Democratic Party candidates is going to change that by November 2008.



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Not Really (0.00 / 0)
I have a fundamentally different view of the substantive/strategic relationship.

Put bluntly, in my view, if you've got a substantive commitment that you're not willing to lead with, it's a questionable claim to say that you have that substantive position at all.

Put in a more refined manner, I think that substantive commitments have to be judged in terms of actions, not words.

A dynamic model of what we are willing to do is far more appropriate than a static model of what we are willing to put onto a to-do list.  This actually has very deep roots in a philosophical model of human nature as embodied mind, rather than immitation god, with abstract intellegence.  If we accept our creatureliness, we realize that we are always engaged in some action cycle (even if the action is avoiding some other action) and our thought has to be evaluated in terms of that in order to be properly understood.  We are never godlike outside observers who can comment without being involved.

And thus, the degree of our commitment is never a secondary afterthought.  It is always an integral part of our thinking from soup to nuts.  It is always part of the substance of our thinking.

See Lakoff & Johnson, Philosophy in the Flesh: The Embodied Mind and Its Challenge to Western Thought for more.

As for the rest, I think the style-over-substance argument is similarly confused. Style is substance.  And style that divorces the two is diametrically opposed to style that unites them.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Your Trojan horse... How so...? (0.00 / 0)
Cmmn on -- What your secret fear of him...? Really

A man that actually got his hands dirty and started a 'grassroot' movement to get 'people' involved in politics against the corporate interests, at a time Clintons were actively courting corporate interests (and you think they have stopped?)

"...In 1992 Obama took time off to direct Project Vote, the most successful grass-roots voter-registration campaign in recent city history. Credited with helping elect Carol Moseley-Braun to the U.S. Senate, the registration drive, aimed primarily at African-Americans, added an estimated 125,000 voters to the voter rolls--even more than were registered during Harold Washington's mayoral campaigns..."http://www.prospect....

Clinton won't even talk to progressives -- shutting people out of her 'popular' town hall meetings depending on what t-shirt you wear...



[ Parent ]
The "Bi-Partisan" Device (4.00 / 1)
Chris,

I've seen you express confusion (or frustration) about this rhetorical device of Obama's again and again. 

But isn't this message simply a peace-offering, a "welcome back, we don't hate you", to the great numbers of swing voters that identified with the Reagan movement of the 80's (or conservative talk radio of the 90's) but have been turned off by various qualities of the Bush/Cheney administration? 

My point is that I hear this device as a personal message to individual voters, not necessarily a policy plan for the institutional apparatus of either party.  In this way, I think it "makes sense".  Essentially he's saying, "You can keep the cultural identity you developed as a ditto-head, at least in name, and yet join a broad national coalition that will, in fact, ultimately serve your economic and security interests." 

My hunch is there are some (many?) semi-reformed ditto-heads out there who could come along with this gesture of Obama's while still finding it difficult to make peace with their former opponents, Hill & Bill.

The everyday people of the whole earth are ready to run the sphere in peace.


I don't remember (4.00 / 1)
Telling those voters that I hated them, or really any other Democrat doing the same. Rather, we have been obsessed with catering to them for two decades.

[ Parent ]
Of course, (0.00 / 0)
I didn't say that you did. 

But again, my point is that there could be a "cultural" message that goes to voter psychology that isn't necessarily linked to policy.

It's the obsessive 'tri-angulation' of policy that has done the damage, from the DLC-led Clinton administration to the present.

Policy-wise, for example, I hear Obama opposes the further occupation of Iraq.

The everyday people of the whole earth are ready to run the sphere in peace.


[ Parent ]
He's using the plural 'you' (4.00 / 3)
Meaning it hasn't been us who have been unwilling to compromise. This would all make sense if this were a conflict in which both sides had shown unwillingness to compromise, but it isn't. It's one in which one side has consistent given into the right even when it doens't make sense. For recent concrete examples, FISA, the stimulus package, Iraq, the selection of justices to the S Ct, the bankruptcy bill, and on and on. Even before that with a Democratic President, and GOP Congress- it was the same. We gave them what theywanted, and they never met us in the middle. In stead they dragged the country further right.  THe cultural message you are referring to is reinforced by Obama that it has indeed been both sides rather than one. The basic problem here is that its al ie that its both. Because its a lie, it will be hard not to triangulate because what other options are left on the table. It's triangulation by another name. Wheras the Clintons do it for themselves, Obama seems to be arguing that he's doing it for us. The outcome remains the same.

[ Parent ]
I Think You've Got Your Pronouns Confused (4.00 / 2)
They hate us.
They hate us.

If they want to stop, fine. 

But let's be clear.  This was all going on inside their heads.

Bill Clinton bent over backwards trying to make nice to these people, and they still hate Hillary for it!

Pardon me, but that's their problem.  They are part of Bush's base.  Seventy percent of the country is not.  Let's not worry about the 30% we'll never get.  That's like, pathetic junior high school behavior.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Exactly (0.00 / 0)
this is about a bunch of people who all want to be liked rather than effective. If you got 70 percent of the country or 70 percent of thing with you, you don't spend time trying to convince the other 30 that you will never convince based on their on set of behaviors. It simply doesn't make any sense.

[ Parent ]
I seem to remember... (0.00 / 0)

......,bad habit I know in today's history free political environment, a lot of 'these people...' Obama seems to want to reach out to hating me, a dirty fucking hippie who opposed the war (Vietnam) and folks that looked remarkable like Senator 'Hope' they called 'em 'niggers' then and still do as far as I know. Okay....

Get euphemistic and call 'these people..' Reagan Democrats; doesn't change who they are and how they think. And....

I don't think I want them in my party 'cause then I'd have to give consideration to their views, would I not, and to be frank....

Winning isn't that gotdamn important if I've got to do that.

It really wouldn't be winning at all; more like what's going on now with 'Sellout' Reid and the rest trying oh, oh, oh so hard not to make the nice bi-partisan Republicans mad at them. Bleah....

Now, I understand from polling and personal experience that the younger cohorts don't 'see' this because racism and sexism appear to be dwindling in their ranks. Great news that.

But not reason enough to welcome the likes of those who've supported every murderous un-Christian thing George W. Bush, his 'Pappy', St. Ronnie, Nixon and all their henchmen have been doing while at the same time they....

Determined that I was not a 'real' American.

Rude, uncivil asshole that I am I look forward to the day that an American mom will wash her offspring's mouth out with soap should said child utter the words, I want  to be 'Conservative', mom.

And I'd be grateful to tell this to Senator 'Hope's' face.

Guess I'll just have to vote for someone else as a poor substitute. I can still do that can't I?


Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
very astute post (4.00 / 2)
I think you're dead on about the logic that's trapped the Obama campaign.  That said, I also think there's a difference between the rhetoric of that campaign and what's driving Obama's electoral success.

It's really become about 'newness'--about the ability of the electorate to see one candidate, as opposed to another, as a symbol of departure from the norm.  It's one of those moments where we have a very fuzzy category that, despite its vagueness and lack of logic, is structuring a very sharp contrast for voters. 

Obama is symbolizing newness--and he's doing it in new ways each week.  It's very interesting to watch this unfold.

For me, the key moment is the Kennedy endorsement(s).  The Kennedy's endorse Obama and this is interpreted as evidence of newness.  Think about that for a moment. It's backwards.  But that doesn't matter, because it's not about what makes sense in a linear or logical manner.  It's about the structure of a symbol taking shape and how people are orienting themselves to it.

Fascinating stuff.


Two cheers for Obama's SC speech (4.00 / 3)
I'm too jaded to get "inspired" by "oratory", but I have to give mad props to Obama's speech last night on two specific points:

1) The "future versus the past" riff sounded encouragingly like a dress rehearsal for the kind of rhetoric he will have to use against McCain; and

2) The "war that should never have been authorized and never should have been waged" line is a clear marker for the general election campaign.

The Republicans have all nailed their colors to the mast, on Iraq. If Obama is willing to equate "the politics of common sense" with repudiation of that insane adventure, I am willing to put up with vacuous verses about "coming together" and "transcending divisions".

-- TP


Your comment has nothing to do with what was written here (0.00 / 0)
As I say above. many of you think you are too smart, and that's not a good thing because no one is that smart.

[ Parent ]
I'm not smart enough to ... (4.00 / 1)

... understand your comment.  Who is the "you" that you're addressing?  As best I can tell, it's Obama worshipers.  But I'm not one of those.

I am still undecided, in the primary.  I am already committed to voting for the Democrat in November.  My worry about Obama has always been that his "bringing people together" rhetoric ignores the fact that elections are about DISagreements between voters.  I gave him "two cheers" for saying a couple of specific things.  I withheld the third cheer, because I'm still waiting for him to acknowledge that the whole point of this exercise is to BEAT the Republicans.

-- TP


[ Parent ]
Good Answers (0.00 / 0)
I only wish I understood Obama as clearly.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
thats fine but i dont see how your first comment (0.00 / 0)
fits in as a response to what chris wrote. now that you have provided more meat i do, but not the first comment.

[ Parent ]
Obama's strategy (4.00 / 3)
The lack of affordable health care, the ongoing mortgage crisis, the lack of renewable energy, and the cost of college were caused by bitter partisanship? That just doesn't make any sense to me. The failure to pass progressive solutions on all of those areas of policy might be due to partisanship, but it is due to Republicans in the Senate and the White House staunchly opposing solutions to all of these problems.

Precisely. Obama uses bipartisanship as a Trojan Horse. Moderates and Republicans really have no trouble signing on to the idea that it's "evil partisanship" getting in the way. But then, when the Republicans oppose Obama's proposal *they* are the evil partisans, and their own supporters turn against them. That's how he got unanimous approval for an initially highly controversial plan to videotape police interrogations.

The vagueness about who's responsible is an essential part of the tactic. If he said "Republican partisanship is killing America" the Republican voters who actually support his proposals wouldn't listen and the Independents would listen a lot less. Tribal affiliations are critical to the Republican political system. Without tribalism they are on the wrong end of 70-30 divides and get crushed.


Again, do you think the GOP is stupid? (0.00 / 0)
Or that you are that smart?

[ Parent ]
Neither (4.00 / 2)
The GOP leadership doesn't have much they can do about this.  Decrying Obama as a partisan won't fly before he's gone to the mat for controversial proposals. The targeted GOP voters don't mind. They *want* to be "conservative Republicans" supporting universal healthcare and withdrawal from Iraq. Obama gives them that option - not that they think about it that way, they're casual about politics.

The whole strategy is typical of Obama. He's a student of Alinsky and very much into understanding and manipulating power structures.To some extent the Republicans don't recognize his strategies and their power because the core of the Republican strategy is the Big Lie, a very different system. It's not really stupid. Obama combines ruthless power plays with genuine goodwill. It's an unusual combination and they're not familiar with it. They're not really able to fight it anyway so right now they're just playing their usual games and hoping.


[ Parent ]
Me Too! (4.00 / 1)
But, as they say in the trade, "Hope is not a plan."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Agreed (0.00 / 0)
But Obama has a plan too. The plan is to wedge a few percent of voters away from the Republicans and/or turn out a few percent more blacks and young Democrats. It would take very little to make the Republican coalition inviable. The bipartisanship is to sneak some wedge issues into the Republican coalition. The "politics of hope" is to pump up the turnout.

One of the things I liked about the South Carolina speech is that he's putting it all together in one place. Start with the bipartisan appeal to open people up, hammer in some wedges where we are solidly correct and in the majority, and close with the appeal to racial unity.

Obama's not softy. As always, he's picked out the people he needs on his side (in this case some voters) and is giving them what they want to bring them over. Voters primarly respond to social affiliation and rhetoric, so that's what they're getting.


[ Parent ]
But We've Alreeady GOT That Majority--Remember 2006??? (0.00 / 0)
But Obama has a plan too. The plan is to wedge a few percent of voters away from the Republicans and/or turn out a few percent more blacks and young Democrats. It would take very little to make the Republican coalition inviable.

Obama doesn't have a secrete formula here.  The Democratic majority in 2006 heralds a significant shift that later polling confirms has only continued in effect, despite the Dems disappointing performance.

The GOP has always been a minority party in need of constant shenanigans to keep itself afloat, and they've been amazingly good at it. But once they actually had to govern all by themselves, they're no better at it today than they were in 1929.  And now a whole new generation of voters has see the emperors undies, and there's no going back.

In short--Obama doesn't have any special magic in this regard.  He's got a narrative about his specifial magic.

Big difference.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The reason (0.00 / 0)
I'm for Obama is, to me, deeply pragmatic; I believe that he, more so than any other candidate, can mobilize and empower more voters (Democrats, independents, everyone) for a progressive cause than anyone else. I simply disagree that he doesn't have special magic, or really, I believe he can do something that other candidates cannot. 

My background is in economics, and a basic lesson from that subject applies here as well - two or three different policies or actions can lead to a similar result but through different means.  Some policies or actions are not able to capture their own full net welfare benefit, i.e. some policies are more efficient and thus better able to do more for less, minimizing deadweight loss. 

As you point out, the fundamental nature of the electorate is in our favor, but the question (to me) is who can capture the most of that net welfare benefit (votes for durable progressive policy) at the lowest deadweight loss (minimal mandate, existing political frictions, etc. etc. that cost political capital or votes) To me, Obama does this best, special magic or no, and that is the reason I support him. People of all backgrounds who know him, like him (as evidenced by the SurveyUSA general election polls out of Iowa that had him in the high 50s against all the Republicans, most of whom were in the low 30s), and I don't feel like we give up an inch of progressive policy for those additional votes; thus, in my opinion, Barack Obama is the most efficient candidate for the implementation of durable progressive policy. But I also like the whole hope thing. Haha


[ Parent ]
which is the problem in a nutshell (4.00 / 4)
he 's making a lot of assumptions here without much more to back it up. he certainly can't point to history to indicate he's right since bill clinton tried the exact same thing in 1993. the einstein statement keeps coming to mind reading some of these brilliant posters who know so much, but then so little. i had a law professor who used to say that about lawyers- just becaue you can think it up doesn't mean its probable or true. too many confused their own ability to come up with a scenario with whether that scenario is a guide for what will happen.

this isn't at the end of the day about either/or. the problem here is that it is presented as iether or by obama, and that's his straight jacket. the better argument by him is that i will work across the aisle where i cana, but i will lead without regard to it as well. no one could quesiton such tactic. it would in fact for me be refreshing. instead, again we are given a false choice, and then we have the supporters tryin to convince everyone that the false choice is indeed brilliant. in the real world, to suceed one works with mulitple strategies and if he were offering us this rather than this simple minded stuff about unity i would be on board. instead we are suppose to beleive this triangulation is something new.


[ Parent ]
I don't 'think' Obama is Clinton either Ver 1 or Ver 2 (0.00 / 0)
I've tried to look behind who Obama is -- not basing his candidancy via the media controlled crap...

I believe -- GIVEN THE LIMITED CHOICE WE HAVE -- he has substance, good judgment and seems legit...

Who is Obama's Brain?
http://www.thewashin...

Steve Clemons: "...Karen Kornbluh about something she said to me about Obama and that I think is important, she said "Barack listens to all of the options, hears them all, and then he does what is right -- not just what is expedient or makes the most political sense."

I'm not as worried about Obama as some of you guys are...


[ Parent ]
this isn't about the media (4.00 / 2)
it's about honestly listening to him and trying to be fair. as i say above i am a skeptic so i am not looking for someone to believe  in. which is why when i listen to h im- i am asking what is he saying? then i look at his record and at what he's done and its lackluster. so i am asking strategically what he means- again it leaves me feeling clinton 1992. ive been saying this for a few months now and nothing has yet to change my mind and i do want to change my mind or be proven wrong.

[ Parent ]
That's fair enough as it goes (0.00 / 0)
Not trying to be dismissive, but there's a record there of what he's done, where he's worked, how he's voted, and what he's thought that gives me, at least, a pretty good idea of who this guy is. If you want to discount all that evidence, if you think it's not enough to trust, then that's your prerogative -- but you can't just say there's no track record.

I mean, he spoke out against starting this war when it was most difficult and important to do so, and while the other two major Democrats running for office were busy succumbing to hawkish groupthink to give President Shock and Awe the authority to go bombs away. That's a clear difference. It shows judgment, clarity of thinking, and character. It was the clear progressive position, before, I'd imagine, he knew he was running for President.

[I know the next refrain -- yes, he hasn't done enough to stop the war in the Senate. People make this argument about Jim Webb, as well. There is no contradiction -- none -- in being against starting a war, but, having been elected after said war was started, voting against resolutions that you think improperly tie the hands of the generals commanding the troops in the field. From a moral and game theory perspective, I completely disagree -- but I sure as hell don't fault Barack and Jim for this atrocity, nor for being unable to find 60 rational people in that grotesque body that is the US Senate.]

This is a guy that organized on the streets of Chicago in the Saul Alinsky tradition, trying to better the lives of those that are never spoken for, or usually even given a thought to, in the halls of power.

When he got to the Illinois Senate, he advocated for criminal justice and death penalty reforms, he advocated for legislation to help the working poor and single mothers. He was a constant advocate for pro-choice positions.

In the Senate, he's on the right side of the immigration debate, he's working for ethics reforms.

I mean, there's a background here. You keep talking like everyone that supports him is supporting some complete tabula rasa. It's just not true. You also keep saying that those that advocate for him are somehow acting like we're smarter than the rest of you. How so? This is his background. If, in spite of all this, you don't believe in the man, that's a rational position, but just say it. I strongly disagree, but that's your right. I mean, if this type of background doesn't show a willingness to fight for progressive causes, then I don't know exactly who or what you're waiting for.

Nothing wrong with skepticism, and I don't think those that don't see the world like I do are cynics. But I look at his record, and I hear his oratory, and -- MAN, does it feel good to hope for a better tomorrow again. I am the ultimate realist about this -- change will only really come when we have about 65 or 70 solid votes in the Senate, and 250+ in the House. But he's the only guy that I think is capable of bringing us nearer that goal, and faster, in this election. Everyone else, frankly, (minus maybe JRE) puts us in the other direction. So I hear hope, and I see great possibility, and I see young people excited about getting engaged, and MY cynicism washes away -- and as a card carrying Gen Xer, that's tough to do. So I look forward to pulling the lever for the man on 2/12, and I hope he's the next President of the United States.

And there it is. I wish you could see it, and I guess I understand why you don't -- but to say you see another triangulation machine from his background and record is a step I cannot even begin to fathom.


[ Parent ]
I am comparing his background to others (4.00 / 3)
He has an okay background with a lot of soaring speeches. But an okay background. Even his community work compared to others isn't all that impressive. As for his record in the Senate- its again pretty thin. You make the wrong assumption to assume that just because someone looks at the same record as you do, and doesn't find it impressive, that means they haven't looked properly. I don't doubt he's progressive. I doubt whether his background provides him with a frame work for knowing enough about playing politics on a national scale-- which is important in a debate in which we are discussing national strategy, not what he did as a state representative. Certainly not his lack luster Senate record- he's never really lead on any significant- bruising legislation where his name was on the line, and the GOP was about to destroy him. He need not have that experience, but if you are going to preach that we should follow strategy x, y or z- at the very least you need to be able to point to where its worked. This again is skepticism. Its asking him to prove his position rather than simply read his biography. Because even reading it- it doesn't convey he knows anything more than the simple localisms that he knows about politics. What I mean by this is what Paul has written as a front page diary about strategy.

[ Parent ]
Comparing his Background to others -- What Others??? (0.00 / 0)
Even his community work compared to others isn't all that impressive.

Compared to whom...?

We are talking about a Presidential race...?  You've got two choices here... Hello...

Plus, we don't know his grand strategy for sure... if he's has some new style or stragegy -- great@!  It's working what's the problem?  Neither Clinton or Obama have achieved bruising legislation -- so what are we going to do about it... Nothing -- we have no choice!

Broaden your horizons... we need a person who is competent... Obama is competent... Clintons are competent but for whose interests...?  Two choices what are going to do...?


[ Parent ]
That's what I've read as well. (4.00 / 1)
He really is inviting them in and will marginalize the GOP.  Their leaders are very afraid of that.  That's what I've been saying.  Running on a common purpose and shared vision instead of a laundry list of intertest group demands is the something the GOP will have big trouble with.  Plus, it's energizing.

The GOP leaders aren't stupid, but they are supporting positions that the vast majority dislikes and are in the interests of only a narrow few.  Their brand is tarnished and their leader is so unpopular that people can't wait for him to be done.  They are scrambling behind candidates no one is enthusiastic about.  Liz Cheney signed on with Mitt Romney, f'gawd sakes.  Who do you think will be Mitt's VP???  Just because the DC Dem leadership is scared of its shadow doesn't mean that things will be different in Jan with both houses, the Pres and a "bipartisan" mandate to bring about significant change and broader prosperity.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
But Obama has already shown he can deliver. (4.00 / 1)
Iowa and New Hampshire have shown how independents and Republicans are drawn to his candidacy.  Try taking a look at his general election head-to-heads in Iowa.

One Million Strong --- Join up!

[ Parent ]
those aren't teh states we need to win (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
But the people are the same (4.00 / 1)
People don't go through a mind control device when they move to or from Iowa/NH. What draws independents in NH will also draw them in Ohio or New Mexico. And the surge in young and African-American turnout in SC is actually larger than Bush's 2004 margin there. Obama could even flip some southern states.

[ Parent ]
thats not true (0.00 / 0)
politics as they say is local.

[ Parent ]
Kerry lost Iowa in 2004. (4.00 / 1)
Gore lost New Hampshire in 2000.

Of course we need to win them.  But Obama has proven his appeal to independents and Republicans there that he can take elsewhere.

One Million Strong --- Join up!


[ Parent ]
do you think this will be teh case this term? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
We won NH and those House seats in 2006 (0.00 / 0)
because independents swung our way.  We need to keep them to prove it wasn't a fluke.

And Iowa will almost certainly be contested this fall.

One Million Strong --- Join up!


[ Parent ]
They swung your way because of fighting against the GOP (4.00 / 1)
It seems some of you are turning things on their head- what do you think happened in 2006? We won not because we were post partisan but because we were.

[ Parent ]
I Would Like To Believe This (0.00 / 0)
But then there are all sorts of counter-indications that don't fit the picture.

See, for example, the diary I've just posted, "Obama's Surrender to Hegemony--How "Common Sense" Can Lead Us Astray."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Voters v. Politicians (4.00 / 1)
When I hear Obama's speeches about all of us working together, unifying, and opposing bitter partisanship...I don't think of coming together with the idiot politicians in Washington.  I think of my in-laws who are intelligent, good-hearted people who are severly misguided by their political party and FOX News. 

I think he speaks to a lot of younger people who are sick of continually *avoiding* politics with their neighbors, parents, co-workers, etc.  It is more personal than the image of working together with the status quo, republician, political players.  I want to be able to have a civilized conversation with people I love without spin or ignorance. 

Its a great message.  I just think the republican, conservative propaganda machine is waaaay too entrenched to give up without a nasty fight, so I don't think it will work.  But voters who aren't political wonks might find a lot of hope in the message.


Who on the left is advocating for division and strife (4.00 / 1)
among average citizens? I think the point of this post is that by repeatedly (and futileley) killing that strawman, Obama manages to avoid addressing real problems. Problems which, by the way, persist in the face of a broad consensus that strongly opposes much of what goes on, both procedurally and substantively, in Washington.

[ Parent ]
Your in-laws (4.00 / 1)
Count me with Paul as somebody who is mystified by Obama and finds his campaign and his rhetoric incoherent.

But if what he's doing, which many of you think he is, is campaigning now for the general election and not the Dem. nomination, it makes him a wee bit less incoherent, in my mind.  I'd question the strategy both for getting the nomination and for governing if he's elected, but at least there's some kind of logic to it.

Your point about your Fox-loving in-laws and all the folks (it's not just young'uns, by the way) who are sick of having to avoid even a glancing reference to politics in social situations, strikes me as an awfully good one.

But what about your in-laws?  Are they really paying any attention at all to the Dem. nomination fight right now?  What do they think?  Do you really have a sense that Obama's non-specific inspirational clarion calls to "unity" speak to them?  Serious question!  Fox at this point hasn't devoted much attention to Obama since they're Hillary-fixated like the rest of the right wing, so there may be an opening to reach people like your in-laws.  Is that happening?

(First comment by a new member here, btw.)


[ Parent ]
Oh Hell No (0.00 / 0)
they wouldn't vote for a Dem in 2008 (and I never expected them to), but they are listening to my husband more concerning facts and information, economic theories, and politics in general.  There is a more respectful tone between them (I have trouble with their religious beliefs - so I stay away).

It also helps that they hate all the Repub nominees, except Paul who they don't see having a chance in hell. 

I just think the Obama rhetoric helps us take a breathe and start talking from a calmer starting point.  It reminds us that they are not the enemy (the Repub. idiot leaders are).  They are actually intelligent, experienced people who we can debate with in respectful manner. 

The Republican party does not want this to happen.  The more my husband & his dad talk, the more his dad says "you're right". 

I am suspicious that this will work because the Republican party is not going to let their base go bye-bye, but for now it makes our lives easier.  (I am an Edwards supporter, btw)


[ Parent ]
After 2004, Democrats realized (4.00 / 4)
that poll after poll showed that Americans agreed with us on policy, but voted for the other side.  And there was a lot of talk about how progressives lacked an overarching moral framework in which to place their policy proposals.

And so, to my understanding, there were two responses:

1.) To represent progressive values as traditionally American, as the principles on which the country was founded --- the recognition that we are all in this together.  An American tradition of sharing, etc. 

2.) To represent progressive values as Christian values --- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper.

Obama makes use of a blend of both these strands.  In a nutshell, that was his 2004 DNC keynote address, and it's been at the core of every major Obama speech since.

As you put it:

[B]y positioning his policies as common sense, common ground, or moderate that, since his policies are progressive, Obama is redefining the center as progressive.

That doesn't strike me as particularly nuanced or intellectual.  On the contrary.

One Million Strong --- Join up!

The "unity" frame strikes me as morality-neutral (4.00 / 2)
I don't hear Obama, for example, promoting notions of a commonwealth or of collective responsibility. All he talks about is ending partisanship and discord "to get things done".

I do differ from Chris' judgment that Obama's goal is redefining the center as progressive. His stump speeches not only de-emphasizes policy specifics, but he rarely self-identifies as  "progressive". Nor does he call attention to the fact that most Americans favor progressive solutions. My sense is that he is selling himself as the sole elected occupier of The Center;  party and ideology be damned. And that scares me.


[ Parent ]
He talks about collective responsibility all the time. (4.00 / 1)
'I am my brother's keeper' is a good example. 

And he's delivered dozens of policy speeches on ethics reform, foreign policy, health care, etc.  And he's proposed dozens of progressive policies.

He's also made clear that he doesn't view unity as an end in itself, but rather as a vehicle for passing better policy.

One Million Strong --- Join up!


[ Parent ]
For a moment there I thought you were serious (0.00 / 0)
"We know that we've been called in churches and mosques, synagogues and Sunday schools to love our neighbors as ourselves; to be our brother's keeper; to be our sister's keeper. That we have individual responsibility, but we also have collective responsibility to each other.

That's what America is."

so I followed your link. You are kidding, right?


[ Parent ]
This Is A Persistent Problem (4.00 / 1)
The fans are ecstatic over crumbs, while qeustioners are looking for a full meal.

We'd actually be satisfied with a snack, just for starters, so we could have something to discuss.

But, no.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It breaks my heart that we seem poised to nominate (4.00 / 1)
someone who has promised progressives so little and delivered even less. That he also smugly dismisses as cynics, those who fail to fall under his spell is even more distressing; even frightening.

[ Parent ]
its breaks ours that you think you are advocating something better (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Who's advocating? (0.00 / 0)
and for what?

[ Parent ]
How is collective responsibility not at the heart of every single Obama speech? (0.00 / 0)
Watch either of the Take Back America speeches.  Or the 2004 DNC speech.

One Million Strong --- Join up!

[ Parent ]
I avoid watching Obama's speeches for fear of being (0.00 / 0)
drawn in and consequently losing my critical thinking skills, along with my knowledge of how the GOP has behaved for the past 14 years.

[ Parent ]
If he were campaigning (4.00 / 3)
on those two themes, I would whole-heartedly endorse them and him.

"1.) To represent progressive values as traditionally American, as the principles on which the country was founded --- the recognition that we are all in this together.  An American tradition of sharing, etc.

2.) To represent progressive values as Christian values --- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper."

But he just isn't!  He's said those kinds of things now and again, but as far as I can tell, not all that often and not in his most visible public speeches (after primary wins, etc.)  If he doesn't make those themes the most prominent things in his campaign, his "talking points," he won't have any kind of mandate for them if he's elected.


[ Parent ]
You're talking about "political capital" (4.00 / 2)

And you're right to do so.  To my mind, a president who gets elected by hammering home the message "I will do X, Y, and Z" earns useful political capital.  A president who gets elected by promising to be the best Barack Obama he can be might get more votes, but he will come into office with less leverage over opponents of his unspoken policy aims.

As I said elsewhere in this thread, Obama does occasionally make his policy views clear.  The Iraq war was a blunder as well as a crime; there are people like McCain who think it was neither; and Obama does think those people are nuts.  But he needs to shout it, not whisper it.

Obama often speaks of "shared sacrifice", but so does McCain.  Now, the very smallest "sacrifice" wealthy Americans could make would be to pay a bit more in taxes.  McCain shouts that "the Bush tax cuts should be made permanent. With his rhetorical gifts, Obama ought to be able to make a big deal of that inconsistency.  Instead, he merely whispers that the Bush tax cuts should be "allowed to expire".  Maybe Obama thinks it would be too "divisive" to do any more than that, but it would be even more divisive to roll back the Bush tax cuts without having made a big point of it in the campaign, first.

-- TP


[ Parent ]
Re: (4.00 / 3)
It also occurs to me why Obama hasn't taken the lead on any big things in the Senate.  If he tried to show leadership on something controversial, it would necessarily become a test of whether he can really work the bipartisan miracle he promises.

I'd feel much better if I could actually see some tangible evidence that it's more than just happy talk.  But when I bring it up they always point to some random thing from the Illinois legislature where I have no idea how politics operate.  I know how partisan the Republicans in Washington have been since 1993 and I really don't think they'll stop because hey, this new guy sounds so reasonable.  If that were going to happen, he would have shown us some results in the Senate.


Illionis Republicans Are Far More Reasonable (0.00 / 0)
Particularly on matters of race.  They aren't Abraham Lincoln or Frederick Douglas, or anything like that.  But they aren't Rush Limbaugh, either.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Which is why they nominated Alan Keyes I suppose (0.00 / 0)


One Million Strong --- Join up!

[ Parent ]
I'm Speaking Of The State Legislature (4.00 / 1)
Obviously.

We all know what a meltdown they suffered in the 2004 Senate race. And that has no bearing whatsoever on the nature of Obama's previous legislative experience.

Guess I'm going to have to do a diary on it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Guy covering his record (4.00 / 2)
on NPR made exact same comments. That much of what Obama talks about he has never tested at the national level. It's solely based on his experience in the IL legislature which isn't applicable to the national level. I fear we will lose several years for his learning curve on the reality that what he thinks might work is in fact all theory against which reality will force him down the same pathat that clinton went because they both seem to want to be liked.

[ Parent ]
It's Really Quite Simple (4.00 / 3)
If you were running for president would you rather have Carolyn and Ted's endorsement or those of Paul, bruhrabbit, and vmackey's?  Obama isn't going to be any more specific than he absolutely has to be because he's a very talented politician, and very talented politicians are more successful than those less talented in being all things to all people.  His way of operating has its limits (particularly when he has to try to explain inconsistencies) and also stymies a real push to create progressive frames, but I doubt if he is going to change his spiel this far into the campaign.  Lincoln once jumped out of a window to avoid a vote in the Illinois legislature, so risk-adverse behavior is not new to Illinois politicians.  I think we all wish he would more forcefully embrace and advocate programs that would bring people the kind of security outlined by Paul in his "Great Risk Shift" post, but it ain't gonna happen.  He and Hillary are both risk adverse.  The question for primary voters is: at the end of the day which of the two will be most likely to get elected against an even worse Republican alternative and which is most likely to push forward an incremental progressive agenda?  Some think Obama's smoke and mirrors inspirational message will do it.  Some think Hillary's savvy  political skills ( knowing where the bodies are buried) will do it.  Those who are expecting a sudden transformation of either into something they are not will be disappointed. I have come down of the side of Obama, but I don't see him as a savior, only the most likely to kick the progressive can down the road a little farther than Hillary.  Others see him as more dangerous.  Take your pick.

The Only Problem Is (4.00 / 4)
Risk averse doesn't win elections.  It only avoids losing them--if it works. If it's lucky.

There's no point in taking risks you don't need.  But "if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything," and voters actually like candidate who stand for something, and will vote for them, even if they disagree on the issue.

This was the real secret to Regan's success, and the fact that Obama is still misrepresenting it almost 30 years later tells me he isn't quite as smart as some folks think he is.  He may be clever.  But it could be too clever for his own good.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
example one being Russ Feingold .. (4.00 / 1)
in Wisconsin  .. and Paul is right

[ Parent ]
its really quite simple too (0.00 / 0)
if your concern is that, then like the bush supporters in 2004, you miss the point entirely. Popularity now isn't a sign that someone is right. If it were- then Bush would be right by our logic.

[ Parent ]
I'm not sure what you are saying, (0.00 / 0)
but I never said Obama was right, or showed a lot of courage, or even advocates forcefully enough for the kind of progressive programs I would like to see.  I simply said I didn't think he was going to change his campaign rhetoric because I think he sees it as a way to win.  He may well be wrong (and I agree with Paul that voters do admire politicians who stand for something), and I don't give him much of a chance on February 5th, but I think he's locked into an approach that he thinks will work for him and I don't see him discarding it.

[ Parent ]
and all i am saying is that this isn't an argument (4.00 / 1)
against people bringing this up here. this isn't a short term discussion. just like bush wasn't. i had gop friends gloat to me in 2004, and all they got was the destruction of their party. i guess my point is i dont think this converation should be turned on what kennedy anyone else thinks or endorse. if they knew so damn the last 30 years would have happened as it did.

[ Parent ]
let me rewrite the last sentence (4.00 / 1)
if they knew so damn much, the last 30 years would not have happened as it did.

[ Parent ]
Remember--the other guys really suck (4.00 / 3)
The Republican Party has been running the country for at least eight years.  They have failed at literally everything.  Conservatism is completely bankrupt.  The public supports progressive solutions on most issues.  The economy is deteriorating by the day.  The incumbent president is at best a laughingstock.  Now is not the time to get fuzzy about what you stand for.  It's completely unnecessary and it puts you in a bad initial negotiating position.  We should be preparing to ram as much through the fist session of the next Congress as possible and not waste time talking like Mr. Congeniality.  Because a lot of it won't be pretty.

Trojan horse? (0.00 / 0)
I just don't the 'trojan horse' line of people on this forum. What, do you think he's secretly plotting to reappoint John Ashcroft and go to war with Russia over Caspain oil? How could he possibly be more conservative than DLC Democrats?

the trojan horse (0.00 / 0)
argument as far as i understand it is something his supporters say. they claim that really obama has do sound like this to get the nomination and become president. once in office, the real obama (that they think exist in his biography) will show up. this is all a well thought out ploy using political ju jitsu to trick to usurp the GOP language but win with progressive values. that really when the time comes he will spring into action and take on the GOP rather than seek compromise for the sake of compromise. so the trojan horse in the appearance of bipartisanship when he knows that he will have to act partisan after he's in office even while continuing to pretend to be bi partisan.

[ Parent ]
Always hated this argument (0.00 / 0)
I always hated it when Obama supporters (and I am one) start talking about Trojan Horses and secret plans.  Both Obama's track record and rhetoric are in synch.  He will try to build a large majority of support to push his plans through congress, compromising where he has to but common cause where possible.  He has been reasonably successful doing this in the past, more in Illinois than DC, and believes he can make this work as the president.  In particular, he thinks he can get the people behind him, which will make pushing legislation through easier.  Some call this naive.  My hope is we get to find out.

No tricks.  No secret plan.  Plenty of reasons for doubters to doubt.  Personally, I think it will work.


[ Parent ]
If people would say what you just said (4.00 / 1)
and indeed if Obama didn't dismiss his doubters he might fight that he would receive a different reception. As I say above I am skeptical of policians. So when one tells me there is something wrong with my skepticism that raises the red flag.

[ Parent ]
Nothing wrong with being Skeptical - Skeptism is Good... (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Haven't we learned (4.00 / 2)
through both Bush and Clinton that success with state legislatures has zero correlation to success with the national Congress?  This has always struck me as the very weakest of the pro-Obama arguments.


[ Parent ]
You Just Won Yourself A Ceeegar! (0.00 / 0)
We all know that our pundit class is insane.  But on this one the netroots are absolutely no better.

If anything, state legislatures can provide a highly misleading framework for thinking about Congress.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Clinton's 'experienced' framework in Congress... (0.00 / 0)
...didn't seem to work either...?

Just look what happened to their long-standing relationship with 'Lieberman'...

How to Win Friends and Influence People in a Political Cesspool

That should be the next TV Reality Show.


[ Parent ]
look I am all for pointing out how bad clinton is (0.00 / 0)
but that doesn't answer how obama maybe bad in his own way. it's not a response to clinton is bad because she will throw us under the bus to say well that means obama isn't as bad when the concern is that he may inadvertantly do the exact same thing.

[ Parent ]
OK /// (0.00 / 0)
...but we are now whether we like it or not down to two candidates... (sorry Edwards is toast unless a mircle happens)

You say 'maybe' that Obama could be bad, or just as bad as the Clintons ...  ?

Well, I just haven't seen the smoking gun that all you guys are frightened of.  The guy is not perfect, but considering I have two candidates to look at -- I think Clinton has far more a concrete record that she will screw the life out of us.

From what I've seen by those who have endorsed him (i.e. Leahy, now Edwards), I believe Obama has the capacity to learn quickly from his mistakes, to realize that there are those that you should not so readily trust when you are so new into the Senate.

As opposed to the other candidate's maybe reliance on loyality or maybe threats(?) to barter influence etc...

Anyways, IMHO you can't sit on the fence for much longer.


[ Parent ]
Thank you for this post, because it proves something I said yesterday (0.00 / 0)
of Obama's supporters. See, that's the problem. in real life, you don't get smoking guns. You get circumstantial evidence. If anything he has shown an inflexibility to change strategy not an ability to change. But the fact you are seeking a smoking gun is why this conversation is ultimately fruitless. Simply not political reality. Never will be.

[ Parent ]
Well... you haven't got much longer (0.00 / 0)
to find that "circumstantial evidence"!

"...inflexibility to change strategy..." huh? explain?

Also, you put me as an Obama supporter == so where are you -- ?  You are telling me you are not leaning to either Clinton or Obama...  wow!  If there are more Democrats like you -- the party really is in trouble -- prime for a McCain win.



[ Parent ]
I am voting Edwards in the prmary (4.00 / 3)
I was flirting between Clinton or Obama because I was being sheepish, but frankly I don't see much difference based on the available evidence regarding how Obama's strategies would affect outcomes different from Clinton's crassness. Their polices aren't all that different, and in some cases Obama's are to the right of Clinton. His strategy would leave him more vulnerable to outcome. More importantly, I believe in accountablity. My calculus is that even is Clinton wins this means people will hold her feet closer to the fire than the will Obama's. Most of what some of you supporters here- your faith- is anathema to how I view leadership. It's not to be trusted. It's to be held accountable all times. So I will vote  the values that I hold.  I have no illusion that Edwards is perfect or will win but he shapes the debate, he holds them accountable, and therefore, if my vote can keep him around longer, it's his.

[ Parent ]
". Obama's strategies ..Obama's are to the right of Clinton" (0.00 / 0)
...linkie poos please!?

"acountablity" linkie poos please?

"leadership" linkie poos please?

"...have no illusion that Edwards is perfect or will win but he shapes the debate, he holds them accountable, and therefore, if my vote can keep him around longer, it's his..."

how... looking at his obvious 'history' record...? that  would indeed be used in the campaign?



[ Parent ]
Look I am not going to play these games with you (0.00 / 0)
there are two choices here:

a) either you don't know the policies, in which case I suggest you look them up

or

b) You do know the policied, in which case you are wasting my time.

Neither situation is of interest to me. I don't come here to deal with the nomral crap I get off line with people circling the wagons


[ Parent ]
Stop blowing air... (0.00 / 0)
I've heard what Edwards has had to say -- I applaud 'his' speeches, I've said so in other posts -- I would luv it if people would wake up and force us to have a debate over corporate control, health care etc --  but for some reason it's not pushing peoples buttons.

Also, his record esp. in the Senate does not match his current rhetoric... Now, he may well have seen the light -- but his record is a huge liability in a campaign against the GOP and MIC Media.

So, he is not imo because of the reasons above a viable 'presidential candidate' -- VP slot -- great... his policies great -- but he's just not the front man...

It sucks I know...


[ Parent ]
Someone is going to be president (0.00 / 0)
Just to point out the incredibly obvious, someone is going to be president, hopefully a Democrat.  No matter what, there will be real difficulty implementing any plan.  But at first there will be a "honeymoon" and the president will spend "political capital" to accomplish the first priorities.  Quickly, though, things will get much harder.

So, yea, Obama will find the presidency difficult, as will Clinton or Edwards.  I believe Obama is to push for change than Clinton and more likely to succeed than Edwards.

Obama seems to have to different, but related skills.  Based on his organizing successes, he seem good at working with people one-on-one and finding mutual areas of agreement he can use to push his agenda.  I suspect that will be helpful when working with those on capital hill.  Clinton also has this ability.  I don't think Edwards does.

His other skill most all of us see, the ability to deliver speeches that unite people around a common cause.  (Currently, that would be electing Obama, a point of much despair in these parts.)  If Obama can use this talent to promote his agenda from the White House his chance of success goes up.  I don't see Clinton being as good at this, nor Edwards.  (Some will disagree about Edwards, I suspect.)

So yea, he might fail.  He might not even try that hard.  Those are risks when electing an actual, imperfect human being to the presidency.  But I suspect he'll do pretty well.


[ Parent ]
yes someone is going to be president (0.00 / 0)
and whoever is we must hold them ACCOUNTABLE. thats the discussion not who someone is supporting or not supporting, but holding them accountable in the ways we aren't doing right now for the Democratic Congress, for example. Why do yo uthink that is the case? Because like with these candidates people circled the wagon and said just vote for them because at least they arebetter than teh GOP. that can not be the long term standard by which we judge these people and it sure as hell shouldn't be the standard by which we pick them.

[ Parent ]
Beg to differ. How do you square Obama's progressive (4.00 / 1)
community organizer, good government image with his interventions on behalf of a man who later helped him buy his 2.2 million dollar house? His rides on ADM's corporate jet? His vote on the so-called class action reform bill, the PATRIOT act, or the bankruptcy substitute allowing 30% APR for consumer credit accounts?

Given his rhetorical skills and the benevolent media spotlight he lives in, he could easily have justified a progressive stance on any of those issues.  Instead of using his political capital to advance prgressive priinciples, he chose to quietly support a corporatist agenda and to court big-money power players.

I'm sorry, but he does not get a pass on these issues just because he's pro-choice, or because he initially opposed the Iraq invasion.


[ Parent ]
Oh well -- why not vote for McCain then? (0.00 / 0)
because ... some democrats have a wider range of analysis... 

Always we can play 'two can play at that game'

Chelsea god rest her soul -- has got a wonderful job at a hedge fund company -- why? maybe because of her parent connections?

So because of the Clinton connections Chelsea has got one 'fabulous' job that also allows her to have 'free'? vacation time campaigning for her parents... how nice!

See how it works...

To stay in politics you need money and connections... so you need to LOOK at those connections -- where they lead --
e.g. like possibly interests that want another war in the middle east for Israel by happen chance?


[ Parent ]
So your response again is (4.00 / 1)
lookat the other guy? This sums up why you are probably going to lose. I don't want him to lose, but it does sum up why. If you can't answer why vote for him over Clinton without saying that Clinton is worse without showing how she's worse in strategy terms, then you lose half the voters right there. It is simply the case that such language isn't sustainable. Even Obama knows that.

[ Parent ]
That's as nonsensical (4.00 / 1)
because ... some democrats have a wider range of analysis...
Always we can play 'two can play at that game'

as it is illogical and ungrammatical. But you get extra points for the Jewish conspiracy reference. Seig heil! You idiot . . .


[ Parent ]
It's simply his market niche. (0.00 / 0)
In our initial crowded primary field you have to differentiate yourself while appealing to the largest number of voters.  Obama does this by talking about unity and attacking partisanship.  It's an approach that has been used successfully by several presidential candidates including Bush in 2000.  Remember, I'm a "uniter and not a divider"?  It plays well against Hillary Clinton who is projected by the media as a divisive partisan figure.

Edwards has run a pretty strong partisan campaign. While his rhetoric appeals to most partisan liberal Democrats, he's never caught on with a substantial majority.  It seems that primary voters like the non-partisan approach.

The media also loves this narrative and gives Obama a lot of air time because of this approach.  It appeals to independents who feel the blame for inaction lies in partisan gridlock in congress. It obviously appeals to younger voters who Obama has brought out in amazing numbers. 

The "bipartisan" approach in a campaign also helps a minority candidate.  It softens fears among those with a racist bent that Obama represents a "black" agenda.  As a son of the South, I know that racism is real and still very  strong in some areas.  His approach mutes some of those fears and helps him pick up some support that previous minority candidates didn't garner.

His approach seems to be working in getting him votes and will help him in the general election.  It'll also help him in governing, if he's elected president.  He'll be able to paint Republicans who oppose his policies as partisan hacks, a similar approach to the club they've used against us under Bush.

I used to think that Hillary Clinton was our best campaigner in the primary but after seeing Obama in action, I'm convinced he's better.  He's used this rhetoric along with an amazing speaking ability to gather huge support.  While I do have some problems with Obama, he's now my choice out of the three left. 


John McCain wants to put SS in hedge funds.


How is this not the trojan horse theory? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
How is this not the trojan horse theory? (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
It's not neccessarily different but more a perspective (0.00 / 0)
IMHO, his campaign is not considering Obama a Trojan Horse but are looking at in what way they can best package their candidate from a marketing perspective.  They have to differentiate Obama from the rest of the candidates in a way that appeals to the most voters. I don't think they're thinking that they'll run as a nonpartisan then suddenly govern in a partisan manner.  I think it's more a marketing approach.

I have no doubt that they'll continue to use the unity rhetoric once he gets the nomination and try to cast the Republican as a partisan hack.

The first thing I heard from folks about Obama is that he has the ability to put progressive ideas in language that makes it appealing to even moderate conservatives.  If they're smart,  they'll cast our platform as mainstream while putting the Republican platform as partisan and appealing to a narrow group.  The danger with this approach is that you have to make something cast as mainstream still about change which is another one of Obama's campaign themes.

John McCain wants to put SS in hedge funds.


[ Parent ]
Head-to-head matchups with Republicans seem to indicate (0.00 / 0)
It seems that primary voters like the non-partisan approach.

that general election voters don't mind partisan rhetoric so long as it's coming from the correct party. In fact Edwards does far better in general election matchups than he has in the primaries. It is a testament to the power of media exposure (paid or unpaid) and to how bass ackward the Democratic party's primary electorate is.


[ Parent ]
From the Cheney VP debate/// (0.00 / 0)
Edwards will be slaughtered...  A setup to be sure...  Better to aim for VP slot...

[ Parent ]
I missed the Cheney debate but I do recall that (4.00 / 2)
most uncommitted viewers said that Edwards won that debate. This in spite of the fact that he didn't bring enough red meat for most partisan Dems' taste. Come to think of it, aren't you supposed to be the one advocating for less partisan discourse?

And even if Edwards had performed poorly, from last week's SC debate I'd say he's improved enough to handily beat your guy; reducing him to awkward stuttering and lame equivocation on more than one occaision.



[ Parent ]
Sorry.. Edwards 'gulping' was more than evident... (0.00 / 0)
in that debate...

Me... "Less partisan discourse" -- sh*t no --

I like Edwards... but no --- pausing for thought isn't the same as shuffling feet... 

Brevity and effectiveness...  Obama is raising in that department.  obviously imvho.


[ Parent ]
I don't know anyone (4.00 / 3)
including fellow Obama supporters who thinks Obama or Clinton did well in that debate.  I don't know anyone again same groupds of people who thinks Edwards has been doing poorly. Most like Edwards as their second choice.  So the construction that he did poorly is inaccurate. indeed, in the chenney debate, the actual polls had him at I believe 60 percent that felt he wont he debate. Where he lost was that he was with Kerry who failed in the post debate spin wars. Remember Kerry? The guy who couldn't defend himself agaisnt swiftboating. This is my fear with regard to Obama. Why he's talking why can't we all just get along they will be going into places like my hometown down south putting up flyers that will make Clinton's bit of racial nastiness seem like a Sunday stroll in the park. The thing is- he has to have the cajones to address it. He can't do that being Clinton 1992.

[ Parent ]
? (0.00 / 0)
Edwards... both with Cheney and when he was on MTP talking about health care was 'edgy' for whatever reason...

and I do wonder....

However, he has got huge inconsistency issues... that could be played out... You'll have to give the Cheney debate polls because all I remember is Cheney giving full frontal that he didn't meet Edwards when he did and Edward blanked... \\\

I wish I could give Edwards credit but I can't/


[ Parent ]
Maybe Obama's bullshitting us? (0.00 / 0)
You know, talking the talk about bipartisanship because it dovetails nicely with his unity theme.  And then if/when he's president, he just sets out on a progressive agenda and tells the GOP they're either with him or against him.  I'd like to think that's what is happening here. 

I'd Like To Think That, Too (4.00 / 1)
Too bad I'm still with the reality-based part of "the reality-based community."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Donate to Open Left








Friends of the Earth thanks the OpenLeft community for the ideas you generate and your contributions to the progressive movement.

As an anti-spam measure, there is a 24-hour waiting period after registering before new users can comment.
blog advertising is good for you
blog advertising is good for you
SEARCH

   

Advanced Search