Lakoff On Obama-If Only!

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 06:05


I have a great deal of respect for George Lakoff.  More than I do for just about any politician I can think of.  It's not just due to his work related to politics, either.  I first read Metaphors We Live By in 1989, and I helped produce a lecture/discussion series on cognitive linguistics as Midnight Special Bookstore in Santa Monica with him as the lead attraction back in 1994.  Moral Politics did not come out until 1996, and when it did, I reviewed it for the Christian Science Monitor.  But I also reviewed Philosophy in the Flesh and Where Mathematics Comes From, as well later books on politics.   So I'm very familiar with his work, not just as it applies to politics, but in terms of how it relates to the larger currents of Western thought.

But I have to say that I'm still a bit puzzled by his recent post, "What Counts as an "Issue" In the Clinton-Obama Race?" at the Huffington Post.  I'm not puzzled by the points he is making-they are quite familiar to me.  But I'm puzzled about the supporting evidence, which is a repeated problem with Obama.  (As I pointed out in a diary yesterday, "Rankism--An Issue Custom-Made For Obama", I think Obama could easily add significant substance to his campaign.) I want to take this opportunity to use Lakoff's piece to clarify my concerns, since this still seems to be something people have a hard time figuring out-not just about me, but about lots of people who remain skeptical, when they'd much rather not. Because, you see, if I saw Obama the way that Lakoff does, I would not be having such doubts.

Paul Rosenberg :: Lakoff On Obama-If Only!
I want to look at Lakoff's piece in discrete sections, the better to clarify points of agreement and difference.

What Counts As An Issue?

First, Lakoff lays out the different approaches of Caroline Kennedy and the NY Times Editorial Board. The Times endorsed Clinton, and did so saying, "On the major issues, there is no real gulf separating the two," and while Caroline Kennedy basically agrees, Lakoff points out that for her, "policy is not the real issue."  Instead, she cites "qualities of leadership, character and judgment," and says,

"I want a president who understands that his responsibility is to articulate a vision and encourage others to achieve it; who holds himself, and those around him, to the highest ethical standards; who appeals to the hopes of those who still believe in the American Dream, and those around the world who still believe in the American ideal; and who can lift our spirits, and make us believe again that our country needs every one of us to get involved."

Now, there is every reason to believe these things important-including a way Lakoff does not explain, in terms of his own work.  Perhaps he knows better-it would take a seminar to do properly, and Huffington Post is not best forum for that.  But I want to at least indicate it. Lakoff's work is deeply rooted in a perspective that sees it as fundamental that we are physical creatures, who understand the world in terms of our most basic orientations and activities, building up from the simple to the complex. This is quite different from the dominant strain of Western thought, which sees us as disembodied consciousness-whether spirit or abstract mind.

This matters for the issue at hand for a very simple reason: if we are simply disembodied consciousness, then matters of leadership style, character, and judgement, really are quite distinct from policy positions, and even if one does not devalue them, one sees them quite separately. But if we are embodied consciousness, then nothing we think, no act of cognition, no decision, no analystical conclusion, however abstract, even purely mathematical ones, can be fully separated from how we live our lives.  We can draw distinctions, and make separations-such as those between style and substance-but these are always, on some level, a form of make-believe.  The reality is that they are all connected.

This provdes us good reason to take Kennedy's argument seriously as having real, tangible consequences.  She may not be talking about policy, but she is still talking about matters of substance. But it is also cause for concern, because it means that the disconnects I see in Obama's conduct clearly are matters of substance as well.

Comaring the two postions-Kennedy's and the Times-Lakoff puts it like this:

The difference is striking. To the editors of the New York Times, the quality of leadership seems not to be an "issue." The ability to unite the country is not an "issue." What Obama calls the empathy deficit -- attunement to the experience and needs of real people -- is not an "issue." Honesty is not an "issue." Trust is not an "issue." Moral judgment is not an "issue." Values are not "issues." Adherence to democratic ideals -- rather than political positioning, triangulation, and incrementalism -- are not "issues." Inspiration, a call to a higher purpose, and a transcendence of interest-based politics are not "issues."

What we can say, simply, is that the Times only sees policies as issues.  But Kennedy sees acheiving them as the larger issue, along with imbuing them with meaning and significance.

The Reagan Thing

Next, Lakoff takes up the issue of Ronald Reagan and his significance.  Lakoff says:

In Thinking Points, the handbook for progressives that the Rockridge Institute staff and I wrote last year, we began by analyzing Ronald Reagan's strengths as a politician. According to his chief strategist, Richard Wirthlin, Reagan realized that most voters do not vote primarily on the basis of policies, but rather on (1) values, (2) connection, (3) authenticity, (4) trust, and (5) identity. That is, Reagan spoke about his values, and policies for him just exemplified values. He connected viscerally with people. He was perceived as authentic, as really believing what he said. As a result, people trusted him and identified with him. Even if they had different positions on issues, they knew where he stood. Even when his economic policies did not produce a "Morning in America," voters still felt a connection to him because he spoke to what they wanted America to be. That was what allowed Reagan to gain the votes of so many independents and Democrats.

As I've written before, I think that this view of Reagan is at least partly jumbled.  Reagan's election in 1980 was primarily a rejection of Jimmy Carter, rather than an embrace of Reagan, and it was motivated more by uncertainty and fear over a changing world than it was by trust in Reagan.  John Anderson and other third party candidates got nearly 9 percent of the vote, and Reagan barely topped 50%--not much better than Gerald Ford had done four years before.  Furthermore, the American people didn't just reject Reagan on the issues of slashing social spending, for example.  They rejected the values behind those policies as well.  Even many conservatives who might agree "in principle" did not agree with the principle of putting principle above people in need.  Finally, his 1984 win, which really did draw significant Democratic, as well as independent support, came in part because Walter Mondale lost his nerve.  Instead of campaigning as the liberal he had always been, he tried to campaign as a fiscal conservative, promising to raise people's taxes.  Thus, a very large part of Reagan's success came from his opponent's failures.

Nonetheless, Lakoff has done a much better job than most presenting what it was that Reagan was up to.  And pointing out how it doesn't fully fit is not a good reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.  After all, his opponents did fail, and there are clearly lessons to be learned.

One thing that's important to recognize is that Lakoff's discussion of Reagan cannot be taken as a play for sympathy from wistful Reagan supporters.  This makes the issue of differences in analysis much more straightforward than when Obama speaks similarly of Reagan to a conservative editorial board.

The Heart of The Matter

We now come to what I consider the heart of Lakoff's essay, in terms of the issues I see as unresolved.  This spans parts of three paragraphs:

There is a reason that Obama recently spoke of Reagan. Reagan understood that you win elections by drawing support from independents and the opposite side. He understood what unified the country so that he could lead it according to his vision. His vision was a radical conservative one, a vision devastating for the country and contradicted by his economic policies.

Obama understands the importance of values, connection, authenticity, trust, and identity.

But his vision is deeply progressive. He proposes to lead in a very different direction than Reagan.

The problem is, one cannot doubt how conservative Reagan was-even though conservatives today are far more rabid.  Still, his allegiences were clear, as were his enemies.  Neither is fully the case with Obama, whose policy positions Lakoff admits are close to Clinton's, and who goes out of his way to charm and disarm conservatives, whereas Reagan loved to demonize-"welfare queens," student radicals, Black Panthers, etc.   Indeed, Reagan thrived on demonization, even as he flashed his Hollywood grin.

In part this is quite understandable-demonizing the other is a core conservative principle, while reaching out to the other is a core liberal principle.  This follows quite directly from Lakoff's own work on the contrasting family models that structure liberal and conservative beliefs-the Nurturant Parent and the Strict Father.

Yet, Obama has shown himself capable of taking swipes at people from time to time-but the people he swipes at tend to be other progressives, which is one reason why there are lingering doubts.  This has been particularly apparent in his periodic distancing of himself from anti-war advocates*, whose early support was crucial for distinguishing himself before he was elected to the U.S. Senate.  He has also taken unfair jabs at secular humanists*.  These are, some might argue, relatively minor concerns.  But they are not the sorts of thing that Reagan would ever do.  Reagan was a leading proponent of the eleventh commandment-"Thou shalt not speak ill of another Republican."  And he certainly didn't speak ill of conservatives!

    * NOTE: For some unfathomable reason, OpenLeft's upgrade utterly rejected my links to these diaries.  Please google "Obama vs. ISG: Yes Blood For Oil!" (at DKos) and "Barack Obama Steps In It" at talk2action.org.

Lakoff's Three Major "Issues" Dividing Democrats

Lakoff then goes on to identify three "issues"-not policy issues, to be sure, but legitimate issues, nonetheless.  The distinctions Lakoff draws are critically important ones-my only problem is that I don't see Obama clearly embodying a sharp alternative.  He does embody an alternative-but it's fuzzy, in part because his speeches say so little about the underlying policy issues, and in part because-as even Caroline Kennedy admits-there's really not so much difference between the candidates on policy matters.  And if there's not that much difference, then how can Obama be "deeply progressive" if Hillary is not?  So I read the following as Lakoff's description of "ideal types" and I fully agree with everything he's saying about these ideal types-I just continue to have my doubts about Obama fullfilling his supposed role:

First, triangulation: moving to the right -- adopting right-wing positions -- to get more votes. Bill Clinton did it and Hillary believes in it. It is what she means by "bipartisanship." Obama means the opposite by "bipartisanship." To Obama, it is a recognition that central progressive moral principles are fundamental American principles. For him, bipartisanship means finding people who call themselves "conservatives" or "independents," but who share those central American values with progressives. Obama thus doesn't have to surrender or dilute his principles for the sake of "bipartisanship."

But if Obama doesn't have to surrender or dilute his principles for the sake of "bipartisanship," then why has he seldom been on the frontlines of any significant battle since joining the Senate?  Why did he miss the vote supporting MoveOn when Clinton did not?  Why did he buy into and repeat Bush's frame about Democrats cutting off funding while soldiers were in the field in Iraq?  Why does he regularly use rightwing language such as "tax relief"?

The second is incrementalism: Hillary believes in getting lots of small carefully crafted policies through, one at a time, step by small step, real but almost unnoticed. Obama believes in bold moves and the building of a movement in which the bold moves are demanded by the people and celebrated when they happen. This is the reason why Hillary talks about "I," I," "I" (the crafter of the policy) and Obama talks about "you" and "we" (the people who demand it and who jointly carry it out).

But if Obama believes in bold moves, how can his policy positions be nearly identical to Clinton's? Surely, the bold moves alone would set the two apart, and there would be no need for such an article by Lakoff in the first place.  Moreover, if Obama believes in bold moves, why have they been so hard to find in his Senate record? And why has he rejected such bold moves in general and especially on the signature issue of health care, where bold leadership is precisely what's needed to bring single-payer front and center?  David Sirota's June 2006 article in The Nation, "Mr. Obama Goes to Washington", made Obama's incrimentalism quite clear:

This theme had been reiterated all day: Obama is all about the art of the possible within the system. "This is a classic conflict within the left: Are you a revolutionary or are you a reformist?" Obama said. "I am less concerned with the labels that are placed on me in terms of what kind of leader I am, and I am more interested in results.... I think within the institutional structures we have, we can significantly improve the life chances of ordinary Americans." I asked him to give me some specific examples of what he meant. Is a proposal to convert America's healthcare system to one in which the government is the single payer for all services revolutionary or reformist? "Anything that Canada does can't be entirely revolutionary--it's Canada," Obama joked. "When I drive through Toronto, it doesn't look like a bunch of Maoists." Even so, Obama said that although he "would not shy away from a debate about single-payer," right now he is "not convinced that it is the best way to achieve universal healthcare."

In short, I would be happy to support George Lakoff's Barack Obama.  My problem is, I just can't find him?

The third is interest group politics: Hillary looks at politics through interests and interest groups, seeking policies that satisfy the interests of such groups. Obama's thinking emphasizes empathy over interest groups. He also sees empathy as central to the very idea of America. The result is a positive politics grounded in empathy and caring that is also patriotic and uplifting.

Two words: Donnie McClurkin. Check out Pam's House Blend if you need it explained.

My diary yesterday, "Rankism--An Issue Custom-Made For Obama", did show a way that Obama could clearly demonstrate what Lakoff claims to already see in him.  I believe that it is clearly a good fit for Obama to adopt an explicitly dignitarian platform, and, consequently,  I remain deeply troubled and confused by the whole McClurkin incident.  So long as McClurkin remains a bitter taste in my mouth, and so long as Obama puts no flesh on the bones of his empathic approach, I simply do not see the same Obama that Lakoff does.

Nonetheless, despite my significantly different view of Obama, I cannot but agree with the spirit, if not the letter, of Lakoff's closing statement:

For a great many Democrats, these are the real issues. These real differences between the candidates reflect real differences within the party. Whoever gets the nomination, these differences will remain.

It is time for the press, the pundits, the pollsters, and the political scientists to take these issues seriously.

I would only add, it's time for Barack Obama to take them seriously as well.


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As compared to Clinton? (0.00 / 0)
This microscopic analysis of points that might indicate a failure to (either campaign left enough, or a warning that Obama might disappoint after getting elected) is well written and well researched.

But I fail to understand what it has to do with choosing between Hillary Clinton, whose policies we have seen, whose votes we can see, and who does nothing to separate herself from the Clinton legacy, and Barack Obama.

Are supposed to be angry that he didn't campaign further left, or are we supposed to be afraid that his Presidency will be further right that B. Clinton's?

Because we know HRC won't govern further left than Bill Clinton. So it's female Clinton or black Clinton you warn, except yopu don't add HRC in.

I think Barak Obama want's to govern from further left than Bill, and wants a to put together a coalition that can stay in office till 2050. The first based on his voting in Illiois, the second from his campaign now.

I would be surprised in Obama governed from further right than Bill Clinton did, I wouldn't be surprised if HRC did.

So it comes to me to decide which one will put together a winning coalition, not just for the General, but for a long time. A complete re-arrangement realignment of American voters.

Which one will inspire a generation?

Which one will drive young people into into involvement in democracy, involved with the Democratic Party.

Which one will drive former non-voters to the electoral process?

I think it's Barack Obama.

I hope he picks an exciting VP.

Off topic heres a great writers strike video.
One Big Union

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


Why Not READ The Diary??? (4.00 / 3)
You are all about arguments carried on elsewhere that have been beaten to death long ago.

But those of us who worked damn hard to win a Dem majority in 2006, and succeeded, only to get more of the same rightwing governance can be excused if we use a few neurons considering the questions if "just win, baby!" is enough.

Once burned, twice shy.

Fool me once, yadda-yadda-yadda...

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Im not sure you are wrong Paul (4.00 / 1)
And I admire your skills, this article is a good example of your writing skills and progressive analysis. But after reading your article again, I can't say that I got my criticism wrong.

But those of us who worked damn hard to win a Dem majority in 2006, and succeeded, only to get more of the same rightwing governance can be excused if we use a few neurons considering the questions if "just win, baby!" is enough.

Once burned, twice shy.

Fool me once, yadda-yadda-yadda

The 2006 victory pushed congress, well, just a tiny barley mentionable bit left. It terms of real outcome, beyond the first exciting 100 days, congress is still far far right of where we want it to be. It terms of outcome.

Don't get me wrong, I cried when the Senate fell to us in 2006, and we had taken two houses!

But again what are saying about choosing between Clinton and Obama?

Is HRC going to govern further right or left than Obama?

left           Obama Clinton                     right

That's my analysis.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
I Think Understasnding Matters Most Of All (4.00 / 1)
I think that the policy differences between them are slight.  And the differences right/left are overshadowed by the variance, and prospects for success.

Of these three, I think there's only one we can know for certain now: Obama is clearly the more high risk/high reward choice.  If Lakoff and others turn out to be right, then we could certainly end up a lot better off.

But, contrariwise, if they're not, then we could lose more as well.  Obama really hasn't been tested in the kind of fight that Clinton has not been free of since 1992.

So, in short, either way I think it's going be very important for us to have our wits about us, and really understand what's happening, and find ways to effectively respond--or even (gasp!) lead.  And I think it's much more important for us to focus on doing that than it is to plunge in on one side or the other right now.

And, no.  That is not a non-denial denial.  I deny that emphatically!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Tested? (0.00 / 0)
Although supportive of Obama generally, I'm agnostic on the issue of which candidate is "higher risk."  Having said that, I hear a lot of people repeating that Sen. Clinton is more "tested" than her opponent, where my position is that it's not clear that either has been.

Being attacked and being tested are not the same thing.  Testing involves a challenge and a response, both faced alone so that the individual candidate's skills are put to the test.   I honestly can't think of that many attacks that Sen. Clinton faced and answered individually during the Bill years(except, of course, for her own campaigns - one more Senate race than her opponent, though several less overall.  But that Senate race counts, of course.)

Are you thinking of something I've overlooked in suggesting that she's more "tested"?  Again, this isn't meant as a provocative question - just curious.


[ Parent ]
Seriously? (4.00 / 1)
Being attacked once or twice may not be the same as being tested, but being attacked for 16 years certainly is.

Women Clinton's age seem to be particularly clear on this.  Gee, I wonder why?

However, that wasn't what I was arguing about at all.

I simply think its obvious that Clinton has a much longer national record (when a First Lady sneezes, that's part of the record, if her enemies insist on it), a lot denser set of longtime relationships, and significantly clearer substantive positions.

All of which means that there will probably be fewer surprises--for good or will.  And that's what I mean in saying that Obama is more high risk/high reward.  I'm not saying which way it will go.  I'm just saying that those are the odds.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
This pretty much defines "concern troll" (0.00 / 0)
Pointing out all the ways that every thing can fail.

Not that concern is not important - but it does get old.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Absolutely NOT! (0.00 / 0)
What defines a concern troll is bad faith and intellectual dishonesty.

Look in the mirror, dude, before you look at me.

Concern only gets old if it's selectively biased and repetitious.

Otherwise, it's what's known as "due diligence".

Due diligence is your friend.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I'm OK with what's in my mirror - dude (0.00 / 0)
You've been repeating the same stories about how much Obama concerns you for weeks now....

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Answer: Policies, Rhetoric (0.00 / 0)
Obama will definitely govern to the right of Clinton on domestic issues, especially Social Security, health care, economic stimulus plans (Obama's economic advisors are reactionaries).  How you can think otherwise is beyond me  (Perhaps you're confusing Bill Clinton with Hillary.)

What will it take for people to realize that Clinton--no matter how much one hates to admit it--is actually more progressive than Obama on domestic policies?  My God.


[ Parent ]
Cheap shot. (0.00 / 0)
First of all, because Obama is less socialist doesn't mean he's less progressive, which is debatable to begin with.

Second of all, you're clearly taking cheap shots without backing anything up -- tax cuts for the middle and poor class, and tax exemption for seniors isn't progressive?


[ Parent ]
Woah, Dude! (0.00 / 0)
Calling a cheap shot, and then saying:

because Obama is less socialist doesn't mean he's less progressive

in the very next breath?

That's chutzpah, baby!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Obama to the right on SS? (0.00 / 0)
I don't see how raising the cap on SS taxation is to the right of anything. That is solidly and refreshingly progressive position - one Hillary refuses to embrace. People may take exception to Obama's frame of SS - but I welcome it if he uses it to push for more progressive SS taxation. It just makes sense and is a vital step towards fixing our pro-rich tax regime.


"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
Raising Social Security tax (4.00 / 1)
=== I don't see how raising the cap on SS taxation is to the right of anything. That is solidly and refreshingly progressive position ===
Social Security is on fairly good ground until at least 2042 according to its own actuaries - and that is after Cheney has had 7 years to work said actuaries over with a sandbag and lead pipe.  Resources and taxes needed in 2042 are going to have to be generated/collected some time around 2042 - we can't collect them now and we don't know what will happen in 2042.

However, we DO know what happens when Social Security taxes are raised over and above the requirement for ongoing funding, because we just finished trying it:  the Radical Right waits as long as necessary to get a Unitary Executive and Fourth Branch Vice-President into office and then takes the "surplus" and transfers it to their friends.

That is why talking about raising Social Security taxes now to create some sort of larger "trust fund" is a very bad idea:  the Radical Right just steals the "trust fund".  As they did from 2000 to, well, now.

sPh


[ Parent ]
If these criticisms have truth to them (4.00 / 1)
and Clinton and Obama are very, very close to each other in terms of policy (and assuming that Obama isn't doing some sort of secret plan, hoping for some sea change in the composition of congress, as BooMan seems to believe, or whatever), then doesn't the experience meme really take hold?  Certainly, if they have similar policy goals, isn't Clinton more capapble of advancing those policy goals through Congress?

Because if Obama falters during his first couple of years in the same way that Clinton did in his first couple of years (while enjoying a trifecta, too!), then he'll get big pushback, and how he'll handle that pushback is yet another mystery about Barack Obama.


[ Parent ]
I agree that the Democratic congress may have (0.00 / 0)
been overly cautious.  But I think you must admit that they haven't always had the best hands to play.  Between a president whose base jumps for joy every time he uses the veto, and a senate minority who have used the filibuster in record numbers, I honestly don't think you can say the Congress has done all that badly.  The House for instance has been much more progressive than the Senate.  Personally, I'm coming around to the  view that the GOP was right about the filibuster--it keeps the status quo in place, which over time creates a more and more regressive situation.    

The Politics of Bruno S.


[ Parent ]
They Shot Themselves In The Foot (4.00 / 5)
The failure to mount an impeachment effort was a blunder of epic proportions.  Glenn Greenwald's recent posts on Mukasey--particularly the threat to jail James Risen--clearly show that Bush has not backed off one iota from trying to destroy our Constitutional system, and Congress is doing nothing to fight back but whine like babies.

Pathetic does not even begin to cover it.

The Dems control Congress. That means, at a minimum, the power to control the agenda--not just of what happens on the floor, but what sorts of hearings are held, and thus what sorts of stories come our of Washington.  Sure, the media is still heavily stacked against them, but there are ways to be much smarter about this than they have been.

Bottom line: It doesn't matter how good or bad the hand you're dealt is, when everyone knows that all you're going to do is throw it in.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I agree they should have impeached Bush, (0.00 / 0)
with the assumption the Cheaney goes too.  They were too cautious.  But still, its not clear how it would have turned out in end.  Personally, though, I'd have traded the White House in '08 to impeach those assholes any day.  Hillary is still the likely nominee, and I don't see her beating McCain, anyway.

The Politics of Bruno S.


[ Parent ]
The Point Is, They Didn't Have To Win (4.00 / 1)
It's all about being on offense, and setting the agenda.

You fight because of the benefits of fighting--not merely the benefits of winning.

It's only by fighting for the benefits of fighting that you even have a chance to really win.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Not to mention that, (4.00 / 3)
on half of this stuff, they just needed to do nothng---ending the Iraq war and winning on FISA could have been done without a bill.  If Congress did nothing on either of these things, they would have won.  Instead, they decided to play a stupid game of chicken with the republicans.

[ Parent ]
Bit Of A Redundency, No? (0.00 / 0)
Instead, they decided to play a stupid game of chicken with the republicans.

Can't really think of how you could have a smart game of chicken, other than as an author, employing it as a narrative device.

"Let's you and him fight" might seem smart at the time.  But the blowback's a bitch.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The failure to mount an impeachment effort was a blunder of epic proportions (4.00 / 1)
here is my reason.  I had dinner with my niece one evening while she was in town attending a weekend seminar.  She is a physical therapist and her husband is a small dairy farmer.  They are fundamentalist Christians.  While we talked she said she supported McCain for president.  I said what about "bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" haven't we killed enough innocent people?  She looked puzzled and I said further "We killed hundred of thousands of innocent men women and children in Iraq".  And she said "but Auntie Betty, you have to balance that with what they did to us on 9/11".

All these years later and the lie is still embedded and my just enable McCain to kill thousands more.  

Then just a few days ago tried to get me to see the light by sending me the nastiest, most hate filled war mongering short video I have ever seen.  


[ Parent ]
Thanks For That Little Reality Bite (0.00 / 0)
I appreciate this slice of life--though I'd hardly say I enjoy it.

Folks online can be as out-of-touch as anyone else.  We need to be reminded of these things more often.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Badly would be a very kind description of (0.00 / 0)
how the Democratic Congress has performed.  IF they had any core Democratic values, framing skills, leadership qualities, or a clue about life outside the beltway, they wouldn't be the laughing stock they are.  The approval rating for Congress is lower than that of the "worst President in history". We Democratic voters need to quit making excuses for them and settling for the crumbs they throw our way. I, for one, do have somewhere else to go.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
on Mondale (0.00 / 0)
For those of us who were too young to fully understand what happened in the 1984 election, it would be helpful if you discussed Mondale's failings more.  Or if you have -- and if the new openleft lets you link -- maybe you could point me to it.


New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.

I'm Not Sure About Online Resources, But There's A GREAT Book (0.00 / 0)
It's not exclusive about Mondale's campaign, but it places it superbly in context.  It's Right Turn: The Decline of the Democrats and the Future of American Politics [link to library search page].  The book explains how elites turned to the right in the late 1970s, and pulled a reluctant public with them.

Mondale's campaign was heavily influenced by the very same folks who went on to found the DLC, and they very much convinced Mondale not to run on his life-long record and values, but to run a "smart strategic campaign" blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.

However, that was not all Mondale had going against him.  The wikipedia entry on the 1984 Presidential election is a pretty good place to start, especially the section on the Democratic nomination process.  Mondale first faced a strong moderate challenge from former astronaut John Glenn--who was expected to rocket past Mondale, propelled by the timely release of the movie, The Right Stuff.  Then when Glenn flamed out, up popped Gary Hart, with a blurry sort of "new ideas" campaign with some strong similarities to Obama's, that also echoed rightwing criticisms of Mondale's liberalism.

So there were all sorts of "friends" helping Mondale lose.  There was no sense at all of the need for an organized response to the right.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Mondale was a good liberal (0.00 / 0)
But he was also pretty boring.  He was reserved (Norweigian) and not the kind of happy warrior that Hubert Humphrey was until he was swallowed whole by LBJ and Vietnam.  He certainly didn't represent anything new, except in the choice of Geraldine Ferraro as VP.  But she wasn't really qualified (or no more so than Goldwater's VP choice William Miller) and seemed to represent his last foray into glam.  Hart was much more exciting, and much more flawed, as was later seen in 1988 with his dare to the press about Donna Rice, the model he was cavorting with, the exposure of which ended his candidacy and gave us Michael Dukakis.  Sigh.  Competence in and of itself doesn't sell.  You need some charisma or some novelty factor.

Reagan just overwhelmed him.    

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
You Forget The First Debate (0.00 / 0)
It's a much easier narrative to write after the fact, Mimi.  But "boxy, but good" can be a winning combination--even though it's Swedish, not Norweigan.

Mondale's problem was that he didn't even go with his strengths, so it's impossible to judge whether there were hidden depths there that could have prevailed.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I, too, was too young to remember that election very well at all (4.00 / 2)
but hearing it described, the Mondale side of the election sounds a lot like the campaign Al Gore ran in 2000--weird, mixed language, constantly going back and forth from the candidate's instincts and what the advisors were whispering in the candidate's ear.

Only Reagan was a lot better at speaking and being charismatic than George W. Bush ever was.


[ Parent ]
I was just about to say (0.00 / 0)
that Mondale's flaws were very similar to Gore's-- many of them, not all.  But the main beef against him was that he was dull, dull, dull.  He was often stiff and cold-seeming and awkward, something press took to calling (and you'll still hear it now and then from veteran journalists) "the full Norwegian."

It was pretty devastating up against Reagan's folksy charm.



[ Parent ]
It's the Economy, Stupid! (0.00 / 0)
Paul, I think you exaggerate the significance of the back-and-forth of Democratic campaigning in 1984. I think it is misleading, perhaps seriously misleading, to refer to the history of a campaign like 1984 in trying to understand what strategies make sense for 2008.

Reagan was an incumbent running for re-election with an economy that was steadily recovering from a nasty recession (1981-82) that had followed several years of "stag-flation."

Incumbent U.S. presidents have been a shoo-in for re-election except when the public is galvanized by an unpopular war or by anxiety over the economy.  Since 2006, opinion polls have shown that a majority of voters rank the Iraq war or concerns about the state of the economy as the # 1 issue for them in the next election.  In primary exit polls in January, 2008, over 80% of voters have consistently rated the state of the economy as "not good" or "poor." (About 90+% of voters in the Democratic primaries and about two thirds of voters in the Republican primaries.)

The economy would certainly be the death-knell of a Bush-Cheney re-election campaign in 2008.  It should be the death knell of any Republican campaign this year.  We can win in 2008.

But when an incumbent president has some economic growth buoying up his bid for re-election, it is extraordinarily hard to beat him.  Even if Mondale had run the best challenger campaign of the 20th century, only a miracle could have stopped Reagan's re-election. Mondale's and Hart's campaign strategies were, in the end, virtually irrelevant to the result.


[ Parent ]
Wait A Second! (0.00 / 0)
I wasn't touting 1984 as a guide to 2008.  Whatever gave you the idea that I was?  I did mention it as part of my commentary on how Reagan has been mis-remembered, but that's as far as my comments were intended to go.

Incumbent U.S. presidents have been a shoo-in for re-election except when the public is galvanized by an unpopular war or by anxiety over the economy.

You're certainly right about this, and it wouldn't have hurt if I had said so.  But my primary concern was to address the magnitude of Mondale's loss--which had a traumatizing effect--not merely the fact of it.  The very fact that we're even having this discussion now indicates that was mistaken to have rushed past the latter to get to the former.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Paul, (0.00 / 0)
Can we get Chris or Matt to post a bio on you?  I love your work, and I am so impressed by your scope of knowledge.  I'd love to know more about you.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
Significant battles (4.00 / 3)
I scanned Lakoff's article and I don't agree with everything he said either.  However...

I'm mystified by this:

But if Obama doesn't have to surrender or dilute his principles for the sake of "bipartisanship," then why has he seldom been on the frontlines of any significant battle since joining the Senate?  Why did he miss the vote supporting MoveOn when Clinton did not?

A resolution about a newspaper ad does not make a significant battle in my book.  Obama's abstention was based on solid principle.  Some people condemning the resolutions as silly still condemned Obama for not participating in the silliness it generated.  Dodd said at the time:

It is a sad day in the Senate when we spend hours debating an ad while our young people are dying in Iraq. Now that the Senate has twice voted on this ad, it is time to move on and vote to end the war.

In Illinois: Healthcare coverage and videotaping of confessions to police are hardly conservative positions.
In US Senate: transparency of federal contractor money (www.usaspending.gov) and lobbyist reform are core progressive issues.


This Shouldn't Even Be Close (4.00 / 1)
Look, we've all heard these arguments a gazillion times.  My point is, no one ever had these sorts of argument over Reagan.  And that alone is enough to tell you that he's no progressive Reagan.

Why does it have to get any more complicated than that?

Why do I have to point out that US Senate is not the Illionois Senate?

Why do I have to point out that friends defence friends when the chips are down and it doesn't matter how "trivial" it supposedly is.

Why do I have to rehash any of these arguments, when the arguments themselves are the evidence that's needed in this case?

There should be no doubt or confusion about what his principles are, but clearly this is not the case.  And it is nothing like Reagan.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Chips (0.00 / 0)
What chips were down, exactly? It seems to me that having the vote was the attack, not the possible Senate condemnation. One could argue that the best option would have been for the entire Democratic caucus to not vote (it would have still failed) and deride the Republicans for wasting Senate time with the matter.

[ Parent ]
how about comparitive reality here (4.00 / 1)
Because if there was one defining characteristic of the Clinton administration it was the discarding of friends and allies at the slightest sign of danger. From Lani Gunier to Peter Edelman to Susan McDougal, the Clinton's walked away from every fight, every chance to defend an ally, every opportunity to use the bully pulpit or the powers of the presidency to assist anyone except the richest and most well connected.

You read so much significance into Obama's vote on this idiotic resolution, but apparently pay no attention to his tireless efforts to fund-raise for Democratic candidates around the country - something that Hillary has not deigned to do. Winning politicians pick fights that they can win on. The do not either abandon their allies or make every triviality a do-or-die battle.


[ Parent ]
Take Your Blinders Off (0.00 / 0)
I am not writing a comparative candidate diary.  I've written reams of criticism about Bill Clinton on precisely this point.  But that's not remotely related to the basic question here, which is whether Lakoff's description of Obama is grounded in reality.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Yeah... Well I'm actually waiting for that one... (0.00 / 0)
comparative candidate diary

When it comes to reams of criticism == I've only seen you attack Obama?


[ Parent ]
Because Criticizing Clinton Is BORING! (4.00 / 1)
Boring as hell, in fact.

Look, you'll just have to get used to it.  There are a few of us wierdos out here who do not think that that's the most interesting or fruitful thing we can do with our lives.

Sixteen years ago, the Clintons were the new flavor, and it took a lot more concentrated effort to figure out where they were really coming from.  That's no longer the case anymore.  And hence it's not a priority with me.  If you want that stuff, you can find it elsewhere in abundance, and no one's stopping you from reading it till the cows come home.

But what I'm engaged in is critical inquiry, and if you pay close attention to what's going on here, you will see that there are some Obama supporters--such as Mimikatz and Mark Matson, for example--with whom I have a qualitatively different sort of conversation.  These are precisely the sorts of relationships I prize most, because we see things differently, but listen closely enough to one another to engage in mutuallty enlightening exchanges.  Such relationships actually tend--on average--to be more more valuable than those with folks who share more in common with me.

So, if you could simply accept my explanation--even if it still doesn't make sense to you--there's a chance that that act of generosity on your part might yield some unexpected dividends for you in insights gained.

At least, I think, it's worth considering.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
How can 'they' possibly be BORING...? (2.00 / 2)
..Some of us just happen to be younger than you!  And wouldn't think it at all boring...

With your amazing arrogance shining through -- I'm truly wondering if you have even the capacity to actually compare -- especially when you have such difficulty understanding why the young people of today are flocking to Obama -- and no it's not his hairstyle...  or totally the American Idol mentality we have today.

Really Paul, your arrogance and frustration is coming through (whether you agree or not) as some rabid old political dinosaur that when presented with a phenomenon that doesn't quite fit into your rigid forms of critical inquiry... it turns you into a spitting arrogant twit...

Of course, on a blog/website such as this -- which I thought was "inclusive" and not "elitist/exclusive" a comparison of Hillary is completely relevant, especially when you are so obviously being so one-sided and having the intent to deride the opposing candidate.

It's quite sad actually... But it's ok I really won't be offended if you ignore me in future...  geez...


[ Parent ]
and I meant that in the nicest possible way... (0.00 / 1)
... to drive a point as to how you are (to me anyways) coming across... You plaster attack one-liners (ok I do that too sometimes, but last time I check this wasn't your board Paul...  

[ Parent ]
But here's the thing (4.00 / 1)
And I think this is the key reason why the older gen Xers are going to Clinton, while the younger Gen Xers are going for Obama--this youngish person remembers getting burned, horribly, by Bill Clinton, who was making the exact same types of arguments.

We are extremely leery of watching Obama piss a mandate away trying to negotiate with Republicans


[ Parent ]
I meant younger gen xers (0.00 / 0)
and the millenials, not the older gen xers and younger gen xers

[ Parent ]
OK... but (being younger) (0.00 / 0)
...until you show me examples, even comparisons -- I find it extremely difficult to just accept he is using the exact the same arguments.

I've tried to research both Obama and Clinton in today's context...

I want relevant comparisons between Clinton vs. Obama ... not Obama vs. Reagan?  


[ Parent ]
You Are Welcome To Go Find Them (0.00 / 0)
But to demand them from me, as if I'm your personal servant is, well, what's the word now?  Oh yes.... arrogant!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
LOL (0.00 / 0)
...someone even thinking you would be someone's personal service...  Oh really!@

Now put me on ignore Paul....


[ Parent ]
Submitted without comment: (0.00 / 0)
[ Parent ]
THANK YOU! (0.00 / 1)
... a start... hmmm....  makes me immediately think -- who are Obama's speech writers :-)

Hey but there's no Perot in this election (unless Nader === Nah!)...  Edwards was just a squeak...  although I did notice with the Green and Huffington segment on AA this morning that Clinton is desperately 'last minute' picking up on the soundbites of -- "those nasty people in Washington..."

Seriously, this type of context is what many of us really need...

I'm not totally naive... we've got two candidates that in many ways are similiar (unfortunately) -- the real difference, I believe, in today's politics is ME foreign policy...

Those who are ever so slightly pushing Clinton are for the 'hawkish' Clinton... the protective interest Clinton...

...and for me ... Clinton is NOT me... that's my bias.


[ Parent ]
Are You Totally HELPLESS??? (4.00 / 1)
Look, no one is stopping you from going elsewhere to find what you want.  We're not running a prison camp here.  Nor are we telling you that you can't publish your own diaries presenting your synthesis of what you've found.

Consequently, when you rail like this, you come across like a spoiled child that can't simply go out and play, but instead demands that it's parent entertain him, because he's too bored to entertain himself.

My so-called arrogance consists solely of the fact that I chose to write about what matters to me--which is, in case you hadn't noticed, the fundamental logic and inspiration of the entire fricken blogosphere!  (Not to mention Facebook and all the rest of the social networking world, too.)

So, my advice to you: Get a life!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Prison camp...? (0.00 / 1)
I really wish some of those other diaries would get to see the light of day...

But instead we get your long-winded openers that a small number of people feel compelled to response.  Take over the board.

All that seems to interest you is to attack Obama.

In the beginning I thought you were being intellectually honest, but now with way you jump around the other diaries and posts slamming anyone who tries to pull you out of your blinkered mindset it's obvious you have huge bias and an extraordinary Obama fixation problem...


[ Parent ]
none so blind as those who will not see (0.00 / 0)
But Lakoff is describing Obama as a progressive candidate in the context of actual existing politics, not in the context of some imagined world of perfection.

[ Parent ]
Fair Enough (0.00 / 0)
But this immediately takes him out of the realm of being a transformative leader.

After all, the thing that Reagan is credited with (overly so, but with some germ of truth) is changing the political environment, not responding to it.

You can't have it both ways.  He's either a transformative leader, or else he's constrained by the times, and it's unrealistic to expect anything more.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
he's a transformative leader within the contraints of the times (0.00 / 0)
Men make their own history, but the make it within the constraints of their times - Karl Marx (paraphrased).

[ Parent ]
A Marxist Defense of Depoliticized Politics (0.00 / 0)
how positively dialectical of you!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
there is a spectre haunting America, dude. n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
his tireless efforts to fund-raise for Democratic candidates (0.00 / 0)
You can't be talking about Lamont vs Lieberman.  

Obama is a pig in a poke.  Nobody has a clue what he plans to do or who he thinks he represents and is accountable to.  Yet, crowds follow behind him like the Pied Piper.  

Hillary is as "bad" as I'm willing to settle for; and I do think she could be more "liberal" than Bill.  If Obama is going to be worse than Hillary, I'd rather vote Republican at the top and straight Democratic down the ticket.  If the President is going to be worse (more right and corporate) than a Clinton, then I want him/her to be a "real" Republican so the Democrats have a "real" enemy and wage a "real" fight instead of lock step supporting the Democrat- no matter how bad s/he might be.  

There isn't a dime's worth of policy difference between Hillary and Barack, but I know who Clinton is beholden to while I don't have a clue about Barack. And even more disturbing is the bandwagon of faith and hope that is following his parade without any question as to where they are going.  Bush "told" everybody he was a uniter and not a nation builder.  His followers believed him and couldn't wait to have a beer with this down to earth kind of guy.  We all know how that turned out.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  


[ Parent ]
OK, then (0.00 / 0)
if resolutions on newspaper ads are significant battles, should we control the congressional agenda by finding more ads that we can fight over and pour more resources into winning those fights for progressives?

No, we don't do that because we have to choose our battles and they need to be about legislation that matters.

You picked a weak example to put at the top of a list of "significant battles".  That is all I was saying in the front of my response.

I threw in some legislation at the tail end of my comment to demonstrate decisions where I think Sen. Obama has been progressive  (by the way, I don't think of him as the progressive Reagan either).

I am delighted with some of the work he has done to build transparency into the flow of money and influence in government.  And he has a history of working to restrain lobbyists that undermine the power of citizens' votes.  I admit it is just a start but the work is there.  It seems to me that these are high priority core progressive issues.  Do you agree with that or not?


[ Parent ]
Symbolic Battles Are Important For Leadership (0.00 / 0)
The condemnation of MoveOn was the effective end of Democratic criticism of The Surge(TM).

Consequently, Obama's failure to vote against it was just a minimal requirement for displaying leadership on Mideast policy, and he failed it miserably.

The Dems were playing checkers. BushCo was playing chess. And Obama played hookey.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
And, also (4.00 / 1)
if that was Obama's reason for missing the vote,

Then why didn't he loudly make this complaint before the vote, and try to get the entire Democratic caucus to leave the floor during this petty, divisive vote?


[ Parent ]
Precisely!--It's The LEADERSHIP, Stupid! (0.00 / 0)
Can't find it with an electron microscope on this one.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Agreed (4.00 / 1)
While I take Obama's side on the basic principle of this non-vote, I can't argue about the lack of leadership on this.  To me, the perfect response would have been for none of the Democrats to show up at all and just let the Republicans masturbate away.

[ Parent ]
Leadership...? (0.00 / 0)
On a 'stupid' ad -- that should never have gone ahead == without MoveOn having the smarts to know what the cconsequences would be...  

I blame MoveON for that fiasco...

I'm with Obama on that... It would have been perfect for 'none' of the Democrats to turn up -- but they didn't have the nerve....


[ Parent ]
Leadership...? (0.00 / 0)
OK Blame Move-On, but I agree with Paul that there was a leadership opportunity here, and Obama ducked, from my perspective...

And you seem to discount that since 1992, Clinton has been ATTACKED by unscrupulous movement conservatives.

If you want to know more about movement conservatives, check out Paul Krugman's book "Conscience of a Liberal"  It gives you 150 years of American Political history in a small, thin, action packed narrative, and you may then understand what happened in 1994, 1996, 1998, etc...,

What Lakoff said in his piece seemed to not have the backup necessary for me to believe in Obama yet, and since Kucinich was my horse, I have yet to decide, but if you are typical of the Obama supporters, then your posting is not going to do your side much good??


[ Parent ]
Leadership opportunity... (0.00 / 0)
I can't believe you're serious...

This is NOT 1992...  


[ Parent ]
OK, so MoveOn started the stupidity. (0.00 / 0)
How does that absolve Obama walking away.  He walked away from Lamont, and he walked away from Roberts/Alito.  If he was too Jr. to lead on these, maybe he's too Jr. to be President. Or, maybe he simply doesn't share our values; and unlike Hillary, he isn't being honest eough to say so.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
...No he didn't walk away (0.00 / 0)
I commend him for not getting involved in a petty Senate catfight...

Also ...it was Hillary that walked away from Lamont by giving him Wolfeson (noting who the guy had worked for in the past -- That was Lamont's death knell right then and there) -- It was Hillary who walked away... and it was Bill that bolstered Lieberman... Those are certainly not my values, nor I believe THE PARTY's (or what's left of it).

The Clintons are 'worst' elements of the Democratic Party and to think for a moment that they are going to put in charge -- makes me sick...

With regards to Roberts/Alito nomniations -- again it was the DLC faction (Clinton being on of the leaders) who made it abundantly clear what was going to happen -- and Obama - the new guy warned us...  The DLC had the numbers and Hillary and the DLC said in no uncertain they liked the guys --

DLC | New Dem Dispatch | January 24, 2006
A Principled Stand On Alito

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm...

So, from your logic to become the next President, you have to be old, republican, and corrupt...

Great...


[ Parent ]
Seems to have been (0.00 / 0)
the template for the last 30 years. :)  If the Clintons lose to Obama, it should drive the last nail in the DLC coffin.

Obama doesn't have clean hands on Roberts/Alito either.  He voted no on the appointments but his votes copped out on the fight.

http://www.dailykos.com/search...

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  


[ Parent ]
Agreed (0.00 / 0)
That's my point.

Asserting the noblest principles, or the most sophisticated logic when you ought to be organizing effective political theatre.

Not the smartest move.

Believe me, I really do appreciate the fact that Obama entertains those sorts of thoughts.

It's just they're more wide-reciever thinking that QB thinking. Know what I mean?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
But... (0.00 / 0)
I was thinking more about this during the game.  Sometimes further contemplation leads me recognizing another mistake Obama made, but not in this case.  The more I think about it the more I believe this is the perfect example of the "partisan bickering" he runs against.  Giving this vote the time of day would be counter to his message and theme.

He still should have given his speech before the vote, not after; no argument there.  But I believe a "No" vote would not only been incorrect for him, but actually hypercritical.


[ Parent ]
Strongly disagree (4.00 / 1)
The Move On ad was stupid...it was also dissent, which the resolution was designed to crush, while simultaneously trapping the Dems.  And it suceeded: as Paul noted, debate over The Surge has since fallen off the agenda--this was far from simple partisan bickering! A blistering statement from constitutional scholar Obama before voting no would have shut those fools down by revealing to all their perfidy.  No down side for him at all. The media loves him. He would have both out-maneuvered Hillary and sent an enormously important signal that such dangerous and un-American stunts will no longer be tolerated. Not to mention, the millions of fence sitters like me would be now shouting his praises.

[ Parent ]
EXACTLY! (0.00 / 0)
And he could have made it as bipartisan as all get out by devoting a couple of minutes to how he would vote against any similar such resolution condemning a conservative group.

Not only no downside, but plenty of upside if he does it properly.  Talk about transformational potential!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Or (0.00 / 0)
Same thing, then dramatically clear the chamber.

If the resolution had any meaning or power it would be a different thing.

I'll admit I'm wavering on this a bit since last night, but to use this as a point against Obama, claiming it somehow goes against his message is silly.


[ Parent ]
It's Not ABOUT His Message (0.00 / 0)
It's about the "bold leadership" claim--and, secondarily, about comparing him to Reagan.

Please try to keep my arguments straight.  You're one of the good guys here, and I really appreciate your contribution to making this a productive enterprise in clarifying things for all involved.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Check (4.00 / 1)
There are two points, the leadership and the non-vote itself.  I thought the original post criticized the vote and the subsequent argument got into the leadership, but I could be wrong.  (And now that I'm posting, I can't easily go back and check without opening another tab, etc.  Probably the one thing I don't like about OpenLeft.)

I agreed about the leadership but was still mulling over the non-vote in mind mind.


[ Parent ]
"Partisan bickering" (4.00 / 2)
Forgive me, but honestly, I don't understand, how the "partisan bickering' will end when he is president.   What is this secret weapon?  Is this where I need to make the leap of faith?  Believe that he has the force to melt the conservative barricade?  

I hear the words "inclusion", "transcending" "transforming" "change agent"  how did my politics become a self help book?    This is the big fight against corporatist America to save our democracy, our government and the notion of public purpose.  Don't you dare transcend these things.   We have to tell them what we want, they don't get a seat at our table.  We have to tell them what we want.  Then fight till we get it.  They have not volunteered anything up to now.  


[ Parent ]
He didn't have t o debate it (0.00 / 0)
he just needed to show up and vote against it.

[ Parent ]
Lakoff (4.00 / 4)
Great diary Paul.

I think one of the things going on here is that, almost more than any other prominent academic political analyst, Lakoff has a very personal dog in this fight.  The success of the Obama candidacy and of an Obama presidency are in some ways a crude referendum on his own ideas.

I have always thought that he was quite perceptive when it comes to the politics of winning elections but kind of delusional when it comes to the politics of governing - how the system works and constrains, what kinds of politics and politicians it incentivizes.  I see a lot of that delusional tendency here in the statements that you are critiquing.

I just discovered this site not long ago.  Let me just note that I think you are doing a great job here bringing a lot of complicated ideas into the blogosphere fray in an insightful and accessible way.

John McCain: Health insurance for low income children represents an "unfunded liability."


Bold moves (0.00 / 0)
But if Obama believes in bold moves, how can his policy positions be nearly identical to Clinton's? Surely, the bold moves alone would set the two apart, and there would be no need for such an article by Lakoff in the first place.

The problem isn't that her campaign policies aren't bold, though I believe Obama's foreign policy doctrine is far bolder than Clintons, it is that she has promised this stuff before. Her incrementalism didn't work.  Eight years of Clinton, was a good presidency, but it failed on its bold promises from 1992.  

The other problem is how she has dealt with policy failures.  She failed on health care in '94.  There are many reason it failed, partly because mandates, which surprise are still in their, partly due to her personality, also still a problem, and due to her secrecy, who knows on that point.  What is telling about this though, is that she gave up on it.  there were six more years of Clinton, if it is a moral right, why not try again?    


Yes, But (0.00 / 0)
That's not remotely concerned with what I'm writing about.

I think that Clinton's faults are well understood.  I think Obama's are heavily clouded, and I'm trying to remedy that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
So we are girding ourselves (0.00 / 0)
to organize for progressive action in a post General Election America.

Agreed.

That is what we should always be doing.

Here is an aphorism I hold close:

"Every progressive advance is temporary, every defeat is permanent."

It means get up you lazy head, get to work, they are tearing down our democracy. Unless you build it, and defend it, it will not exist.

I supported Edwards, he grew into being the most progressive candidate the Dem's have seen in generations. He elucidated the problems we face directly and so pointed to the cures.

But.

Right now what democrats need is an analysis of, only between HRC and Obama, which is the better candidate, and which one will win the general, and which will help to realign the nation.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
But... (0.00 / 0)
The sort of analysis you call for is inconclusive, in my mind.

The best I can do is the analysis I provide here, and hope that it helps others in the kind of analysis you call for.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Thanks Paul. (0.00 / 0)
Besides Diaries here, do you have a blog?

Your writing is clear and specific and from the left.

I assume we will all be reading your book soon.


Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
This Is My Online Home (0.00 / 0)
And I wish I had your confidence about the state of my book.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
You are confusing Hillary and Bill (0.00 / 0)
Bill was president then.  She's been telegraphing quite clearly that she has different ideas about how to do things than her husband.  Not to mention she got as vivid a demonstration as it's possible to get about how Bill's approach so often failed.

If health care reform was dropped, it was because Bill wanted it dropped.  In any case, the whole subject had been so poisoned, there was little chance of coming back at it with any hope of success, just further hardening of the opposition.

Most critical difference between Hillary and Bill is that Bill needed-- still needs-- not just approval but love.  Hillary obviously has no such need.  Makes a big difference in the way you govern, IMHO.


[ Parent ]
I'm hearing that Hillary may even garnish wages for her health plan... (0.00 / 0)
AND I thought Bill was too republican...

[ Parent ]
Once You Rule Out Single Payer, ALL The Options Are Bad (4.00 / 2)
It's incredibly simple, really.

Which is why I don't bother pouring tons of energy into the battle of which betrayal is a better betrayal than the other betrayals.

It's because I'm arrogant, partisan, divisive, and committed to the politics of the past.

1776 and all that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Bold Moves (4.00 / 1)
Jgarza,

I don't think either candidate is making enough of Bold Moves right now, with the FISA battle, both candidates are ducking big time...

But I want to reiterate, after 1994, the Republicans attacked the Clinton's right up to pushing a BS impeachment over..., what, a blowjob, when the hypocrites pushing it were divorcing wives who had cancer, etc...

This general is going to be a fight.  To restore our democracy, we are going to have to fight.  Tell me what makes you believe Obama can fight the nastiness that is the current GOP?


[ Parent ]
Obama? (2.00 / 2)
No one is supposed to make historical parallels anymore. But I remember a people defeated after a war with an economy in shambles, humiliated who put their faith on a man who would restore their "(1) values, (2) connection, (3) authenticity, (4) trust, and (5) identity".

I remember those same people demonizing others and sanctifying without question their choice. In the hunger to win on behalf of the so called "progressive" movement, we have adopted the means of corruption, delusion and opportunism. The crafting of words, nuance, distortion and demonization.

No matter what you think, a woman like Hillary, has been turned into the most horrible human being. When did the Legal Services Administration and heading that become trivial? When did working on the Watergate Congressional Committee become nothing? When did it become insignificant to try to put a National Healthcare system and face the onslaught of the Conservative become a sham rather than heroic?

Do I question her on the war vote? YES. Do I question so many other of her positions YES.

But please MR. Lakoff, in the effort to out do the conservative machine do not emulate their binary idiocies.

US policies are not gonna change. All I want is a better run government. People are served with small crafted policies, regulations and procedures. People are served with government officials that care about fairness. Change in America is and will be incremental.

I do find disturbing the mob that is willing to place it's faith, it's desire for inspiration, it's trancendency and transformation on a politician. What will the machine that made him do when he starts to crumble, Axelrod carefully created a story to sell to America, that story will face hardships. But will the supporters question the story? Who wants to lose faith? Who wants to feel that the one who inspired them is just another politician? This mob scares me, fueled by the egocentric blogosphere, who moved from dungeons and dragons too being Kingmakers.

Bill's choice of words may have been blunt. Too blunt for the naive faith based media and voter. Obama's anti war stance is a fairy tale. He claims better judgement. It was not judgement it was an opinion. His judgement was when he supported Kerry's vote and now demonizes for gain, Hillary's vote. If he was anti war, inspirational and full of values, why did he not lead an anti war movement? Why did he not speak in the Senate? Obama trivializes the work of government just as the current tenants.

Watch his interview with the Reno Gazette, the full hour not the clip the media and the fanatics pushed. He will delegate. Yet, when he had role in the community he did not notice that one of his funders was pillaging affordable housing. And when asked, he said he did not know and that affordable housing fails because of the 'neighborhood demographics" aka, poor African American people.

Finally, who gave the "torch of leadership" to Kennedy? When did he show leadership in the last twenty years? A few speeches? Why did the establishment white men unite against Hillary? It is a gender issue.
Finally on the progressive tag. This is a coalition that is doomed to the fate of the Conservative revolution. The anti war position unites them. But what beyond feeling good about America? Social and economic justice are not elements. The most this is a libertarian movement.


So your comparing us to Nazis? (0.00 / 0)
Thanks.  

Personally, I would go with Bush voters in '04.  But maybe that would have been too inflamatory. :)

The Politics of Bruno S.


[ Parent ]
Offensive (0.00 / 0)
This mob scares me, fueled by the egocentric blogosphere, who moved from dungeons and dragons too being Kingmakers.

I don't count myself as an Obama supporter, but I find this description of his supporters to be offensive. It seems to me that many of his supporters are new young voters who have the idealism I lost years ago. Injection of idealism every once in a while is a good thing.


[ Parent ]
Apology (4.00 / 1)
I apologize if it offends you and I would not want my experience of that to take away from the issues at hand or to suggest that this is other peoples experience.  But this has been my experience, at least in the various discussions.  So, once again I apologize if I offended you.  

[ Parent ]
I Agree With You (0.00 / 0)
But I can also see how some see it Stellaa's way, too.

I see her point quite clearly, and think that it depends on the very same lack of clarity on Obama's part that his enthusiastic support is based on.

When he speaks of "Unity" he may invoke Martin Luther King as his inspiration.  But historically, we're living in the shadow of Bush right now, and such calls bring Bush to mind much faster than they do King.

"Write the rules
in the sky
but ask your leaders
--why?"
    "Live and Let Live"--Arthur Lee/Love


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Count Me in Stellaa's Camp (0.00 / 0)
I'm pleased to stumble on this thread and see some people actually acknowledging that Obama's campaign is more atmospherics than substance, that if anything he sounds less progressive than Hillary Clinton on domestic policy, that his calls for "unity" also sound like anti-Clinton code more than anything else, more "dis-unity" than "unity."  And there is something jarringly cultish about the feelings that his campaign is inspiring in some of his supporters.  They're acting less like people who are responding to some notion of a greater sense of community and a "new, more thoughtful politics" than like people who swooned at the first glimpse of Paul, John, George, and Ringo when they came stateside.  I think we'd all be better off, now and heading into November, having a more down to earth discussion about the choices facing us.  It's government, folks out there in the states that haven't voted yet, not religion.

[ Parent ]
Some of us voted for LBJ (0.00 / 0)
and have been disappointed ever since.  But have seen a great deal of politics.  Obama draws the MoveOn crown, who are not just young people, but many in their '60s and even older who have ben waiting for a candidate who understands the role of charisma and building a movement.

And anyone who can energize young people and get them to participate has done the US a great service.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
LBJ (4.00 / 1)
I hold LBJ responsible for the war but I also give him credit civil rights ,changing America's Nationality and race based immigration policy and the Great Society (what Obama called the excesses of the 60'and 70)  .  1965 LBJ passed an Immigration Law that was not based on Nationality and Race.  So, lets not forget history.  

In the same way, JFK, Bay of Pigs, so much for lack of experience being a good thing.  Do we choose to forget that tidbit.  So, other than charisma and Camelot what is the legacy?  But we forget Robert Kennedy's children are supporting Hillary.  

Move-on I see as any online Poll.  It's irrelevant.  I used to be member and got bored to tears their methods and their processing.  Except that Move-on takes people's money and does a campaign.  Save your money for the GE.  

My god energizing young people thee days you just need a product, a meme and some online viral campaign.  The Obama girl, the other video that depicted Hillary to the 1984 Apple commercial.  Translating the viral to social change, I am not convinced.  next year?  

Until I see some sacrifice and risk taking it's just words.  


[ Parent ]
Just recommended your comment ... (0.00 / 0)
because I strongly agree that Lakoff can be tone deaf to real world politics -- at the same time that he has given us immensely useful insights into how political allegiances form.

Great diary Paul

Can it happen here?


Excellent analysis (4.00 / 1)
Very well said. I love Lakoff's descriptions, but I also don't see his Obama anywhere. Perhaps Lakoff sees the Clinton vs. Obama race as a test of his ideas. It's only natural for him to be excited by such a possibility, but I think he goes too far when describing Obama as a deep progressive.

I wasn't inspired by any of the candidates, so I'm left with evaluating Obama vs. Clinton. Neither is a solid progressive like Russ Feingold, obviously. I'm left with two more prosaic concerns:

1) Non-political people I talk to have a natural dislike of Clinton, for whatever reason.

2) The Clintons have a much longer history and record. For every item I've disliked about Obama, I can probably name two or three about the Clintons.

So as of today, I'd vote for Obama.


A Test Of Ideas (0.00 / 0)
I think you're absolutely right.

Lakoff is excited by what he thinks he sees in Obama--just like many other people are.  What he sees is a good deal more subtle and complex--and clearly significant--but the basic ink-blot effect is similar, IMHO.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I try to read you (0.00 / 0)
and then I stumble across a rhetorical question like "Why did he miss the vote supporting MoveOn when Clinton did not?" and I just stop because it becomes apparent you are just looking to justify your conclusion rather than looking at Obama with an open mind.  What are we to make of this? Pure ignorance or a rhetorical question?  Why are you either so hesitant to explore Obama's position on its own terms or so lazy to look it up?

I try to read you (0.00 / 0)
and then I stumble across a rhetorical question like "What are we to make of this? Pure ignorance or a rhetorical question?  Why are you either so hesitant to explore Obama's position on its own terms or so lazy to look it up?"

If Obama actually were the Reganeque champion he is claimed to be, then there wouldn't be any need to track down his spin on the matter.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Paul (0.00 / 0)
He was offended that this would be even a subject of discussion in the US Senate which has a lot more serious issues to deal with than a right-wing publicity stunt so he refused to participate.  No spin.  He voted for the Boxer amendment which was correct.  What I do find curious is that in a decision as important as who will be the next President this is even brought into the discussion.  

[ Parent ]
If You Oppose Something You Oppose It (0.00 / 0)
And it's very telling that Obama just doesn't seem to grasp this.

Nor do you.

(God, I wish Booman were here to witness this.  See, I'm framing it as a simple tautology!)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
all about symbolics that most people don't care about (0.00 / 0)
What  

[ Parent ]
Until All The Attack Ads Start (0.00 / 0)
You should read some books on McCarthyism.  Learn what's at stake.

Just because you're ignorant, doesn't mean you're invulnerable.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
that's the core of your confusion (4.00 / 1)
You insist on viewing yourself as a clear-eyed, educated, realist on a mission to explain how the world works to uneducated, dewy-eyed, naifs.

Obama is a hard core Alinsky-type pragmatist. He is the kind of person who thinks the historic failures of the Catholic church are not important when you are organizing a parish against a bad landlord and are looking for vehicles for organizing and getting the message across.  


[ Parent ]
Hard Core Alinsky? (4.00 / 1)
Would a hard core Alinsky type answer the following question:

Q: Many Rezmar government-financed housing deals have ended up in legal battles, including foreclosure. Several Rezmar buildings are now boarded up, and others are in need of major repairs. Taxpayers have lost millions of dollars on these deals. While Senator Obama has called Mr. Rezko a legal client, campaign contributor and a friend, there's ample evidence that Mr. Rezko was a slum landlord. Was the senator aware then that Mr. Rezko's projects were deeply mired in physical and financial problems? Does the senator think it is fair to characterize Mr. Rezko as a slum landlord?

This was Obama's answer:  
: Housing partnerships in which low-income-housing tax credits are syndicated frequently struggle financially. The reasons for the problems such partnerships struggle are complex but frequently include urban crime, demographic changes and social factors outside the control of any developer or owner. Senator Obama was not otherwise aware of financial and physical problems attributable to misconduct by Mr. Rezko

http://www.suntimes.com/news/m...

Excuse me when does an Alinsky organizer blame the "neighborhood demographics" (aka African Americans) for the failure of affordable housing?  
This is where I don't see the core progressivism that is implied in him.  Or has Alinsky been reframed as well in the last few years?  


[ Parent ]
you could ask Obama's ex boss at the IAF (0.00 / 0)
who is endorsing him.


[ Parent ]
Alinsky and Hillary (4.00 / 1)
One of the reasons to hate Hillary by the right, was that her senior thesis at Wellsley was on Saul Alinsky: There Is Only The Fight...": An Analysis of the Alinsky Model.  

[ Parent ]
IAF? (0.00 / 0)
What is that?  

[ Parent ]
Not to mention (0.00 / 0)
"Senator Obama has called Mr. Rezko a legal client, campaign contributor and a friend,"

Obam recently said all he did was "five hours of legal work" for Rezko.


[ Parent ]
Hey, He Makes Friends Easily (0.00 / 0)
What can we say?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Not Quite (0.00 / 0)
that's the core of your confusion

You insist on viewing yourself as a clear-eyed, educated, realist on a mission to explain how the world works to uneducated, dewy-eyed, naifs.

I view myself as a Buffy fan:

"And you know what they say. Those of us who fail history? Doomed to repeat it in summer school."

--Buffy, "After Life," Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
So, he's an incrementalist that works within institutions? (4.00 / 1)
What was thaat criticism of Clinton again?

[ Parent ]
So You Noticed That, Eh? (0.00 / 0)
Some points just need to be made over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Mythologizing Obama (4.00 / 3)
Paul I very much like this post.  Lakoff is a brilliant man and one cannot contradict him on his conjectures about what matters.   Yet he offers very little to suggest that Obama embodies these roles.    It feels like very technical and nuanced mythology support for Obama.  

Your questions are good ones and help to make conscious what some progressives are having a hard time with about Obama.  Especially his tendency to be harsh with progressives and anti war types.  

I am also confused by all the the declarations in the comments where it is asserted that Obama is more progressive than Clinton.   It seems to me the point is that we do not know where Obama is and so one either assumes that HRC is different from her husband and more progressive or she is not and then we project our Obama view onto that spectrum with HRC already in place. A whole variety of perspectives appear to have about equal chance of validity.  But they do generate a lot of heat.  

This seems rather senseless.  I think it is damn near impossible to know what Obama would do.   We are collectively spending tremendous energy projecting our hopes and fears onto Obama and HRC and treating those projected emotions as facts.  

Your post helped me navigate in this woolly mess.  Thanks


Some thoughts (4.00 / 1)
Part of what Lakoff/C. Kennedy are saying is that it is a question of not just of ends but of means as well.  Doi the means chosen to win powewr and advance policies leave the Pres more or less able to enact those polciies?  In addition, as we have seen with GW Bush, how one choses to govern has a big impact on the policies chosen and the tone in the gov't and country as a whole.

Hillary wants generally incremental solutions, and believes in top-downism, as exemplified by her praise of LBJ and her constant talking about what she will do as Pres.  Obama understands that a President can both embody and mobilize the hopes of a public and use this as a counterweight to opposition, thus permitting him/her to enact bolder solutions.  This is what Reagan did for the worse, and what Obama hopes to do for the better.

Hillary practices scorched earth politics, but not scorched earth legislating--name one issue where she has led a progressive fight in her 7 years in the Senate.  Obama has not led on anything but smaller issues, bur he has been a Senator for only 3 years, during the last of which he's been campaigning.  Hillary touts her ability to get along in the Senate, but most of the biggest liberal names have endorsed Obama.

I don't think Obama emphasizes empathy over interest groups.  Rather, I think he emphasizes commonality and individuality, rather than group identity.  He sees people as individuals with unique, not easily pigeonholed identities (like himself) but united by common citizenship and humanity.  This invocation of the common good is necessary to get people to make the changes that are going to be necessary to combat global warming, and achieve more income equality and greater opportunity.  

I thiink Obama is being mostly vague, but that's because 95% of the people vote for a Gestalt, as Richard Wirthlin says, not for the nuances of things like health care policy.  What is clear is that whoever is Pres will have to get health care through the Senate, and it won't be like Bush in 2003-2006; the Pres won't dictate to Congress.  But he would be able to go over the heads of Congress to the people, isolate a Mitch McConnell and work with a Chuck Grassley, for example, and get something much, much better than what we have now.  

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


This Is A Good Comparative Paragraph (0.00 / 0)
Mimi:

Hillary practices scorched earth politics, but not scorched earth legislating--name one issue where she has led a progressive fight in her 7 years in the Senate.  Obama has not led on anything but smaller issues, bur he has been a Senator for only 3 years, during the last of which he's been campaigning.  Hillary touts her ability to get along in the Senate, but most of the biggest liberal names have endorsed Obama.

But it's totally off on a tangent from my point--which itself was directly responding to Lakoff's claim that "Obama believes in bold moves..."

What I'm up to in this diary is promoting clarity, not one candidate vs. another.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
A different take on "bold moves" (4.00 / 1)
To me, the "boldest" and most significant "move" Obama is taking is to focus on, as Lakoff says, "building a movement in which the bold moves are demanded by the people and celebrated when they happen."  

Your arguments about Obama's statements, votes and actions, have yet to convince me that they point clearly to his lack of progressive views and willingness to stand up for them, especially in the face of his record in IL and other things he's said and done.  

What they do convince me is that he hasn't lived up to your standards of what a true progressive should do.  Others, including myself, disagree and, as the increasingly repetitive debate has continued here and in other forums, I don't think those disagreements are resolvable by any irrefutable set of facts.  They are largely a function of intepretations and value judgments, which lead to a focus on different subsets of the "facts" and interpretations thereof.  Given this, I see a lot of talking past each other and very little convincing of those with a different but equally valid point of view.  More importantly, I don't think the focus of these disagreements is the most important thing at issue with regard to Obama's candidacy.

This leads me back to Lakoff's point about "building a movement" that demands bold change and, as Tom Hayden said at HuffPo, one that "leads its leaders."  

I agree with rootless2 that:

Obama is a hard core Alinsky-type pragmatist. He is the kind of person who thinks the historic failures of the Catholic church are not important when you are organizing a parish against a bad landlord and are looking for vehicles for organizing and getting the message across.

I respect this pragmatic priority on helping people today even if it means putting ideological purity on the backburner for the present moment.  

But I also think there's a "bold" strategy married to this political pragmatism--and one that's more important than the appearance (or lack thereof) of ideological purity.

In the age of the Internet, it seems quite possible--and, in view, strategically important--to drive progressive political change via a bottoms-up strategy that educates and inspires citizens to better understand the issues and the options, and to get more politically involved in ways that are increasingly effective (in both the short and long-terms) but also feasible and sustainable given the other demands on their time.  The emergence and growing influence of the netroots, MoveOn and other web-based organizations/movements attests to this, as does their success (admittedly only partial) in some recent battles at the FCC and in Congress.

The other day I saw this quote from Obama early in his political career in an article at prospect.org.

"What if a politician were to see his job as that of an organizer," he asked a local newspaper at the time, "as part teacher and part advocate, one who does not sell voters short but who educates them about the real choices before them?"

He said this years before the netroots, Congresspedia, the Sunlight Foundation and other web-based political activities existed.  From where I sit, his observation--and the strategy it suggests--is even more relevant and feasible today and holds great potential to support a broad and sustainable political realignment.  It also suggests that this strategy has been evolving for a good long time.

Obama's also pointed out that, for such a strategy to really succeed and become sustainable, it requires citizens to feel substantially more trust in their political representatives than they do today. Otherwise cynicism and apathy will overcome inspiration, clarity, focus and hope, all of which are needed in pretty healthy and well-balanced measures for this strategy to succeed.

To succeed, this strategy also requires the kind of empathy Obama and Lakoff refer to, in terms of building a broadened coalition that includes people who don't always agree on everything, but who are able to understand and respect each other enough to 'agree to disagree' on some issues, while working together on others.  

Based on my own experience of life (especially my marriage), this generally requires BOTH sides to back off a bit from their "I'm right and you're wrong" position and try to understand the other's point of view rather than endlessly debate who is "really" more right and less wrong (which almost always leads to escalation without resolution).  

As others have pointed out, this strategy is unlikely to work with the likes of Tom Delay, but it has the potential to leave these folks standing and ranting in a corner with the small minority of citizens that really do share their perspective and are unwilling to let go of it.

When I listen to Obama I hear someone who is both progressive and pragmatic about what can be accomplished in the short term on urgent issues that require attention--i.e., he'd rather make some progress to help people ASAP rather than fight escalating but losing battles. In some cases this appears incrementalist or "ideologically impure", because it is taking into account the practical constraints of existing circumstances and institutions and focusing on achievable results rather than being "right."

To me, Obama's strategy for getting beyond the constraints of current-reality political pragmatism (i.e., where his true "boldness" lies) is not so much based on "fighting (and too often losing) the good fight" on behalf of ideological beliefs.  

Rather, it relies on using the combination of community-organizing principles, 21st century technology, and inspiring and trusted leaders (not just at the top), to pull (and push from the bottom up) the American political system out of the cesspool in which extreme-right hate- and fear-mongers have fundamental advantages and have shown no qualms about exploiting them in extremely damaging ways.

The more I pay attention to him, the more I believe that this is the case, and that this form of "boldness" is the kind we need to create a sustainable and expanding progressive governing majority that can become increasingly effective at addressing our nation's (and the world's) problems, and to do so at an accelerating rate (which I'd argue we need right now).  

And, as I said early on in this comment, after carefully considering critiques of Obama by Paul and others, my general response is these raise some points worth keeping in mind, but also seem to repeatedly ignore facts and interpretations that run counter to their arguments.  

But, more important (to me, at least) is that they seem to fundamentally miss the point regarding the unique value of Obama's candidacy and, in doing so repeatedly, tend to distract attention from efforts to understand that value and how best to leverage it.

Obviously, its not up to me to determine what people discuss on OpenLeft or anywhere else.  But, just as Paul believes its important to criticize Obama for not adhering to standards he feels are important and for acting in ways he sees as unhelpful for building a progressive coalition and winning the "war of position", I feel similarly about much of the critiques I read about Obama.  While they are valid to raise and discuss, a repetitive focus on them seems a little like beating a dead horse when there are some "carbon-neutral flying machines" almost ready to be used for transportation--and that we can get them ready for use a lot faster and more effectively if we put our heads together with that goal in mind.  


[ Parent ]
Clearing The Air (4.00 / 2)
This comment starts off with some fundamental misconeptions that have to be cleared up before I can address anything else, because the fact that they're still hanging around indicates a lack of common understanding on which any sort of productive dialogue depends.

So, running through things as quickly as I can (yeah, I know, not saying much):

To me, the "boldest" and most significant "move" Obama is taking is to focus on, as Lakoff says, "building a movement in which the bold moves are demanded by the people and celebrated when they happen."
 

This may be a good idea, but it hardly qualifies as a bold move to build a movement to produce bold moves that haven't yet been taken.  This is just so much closer to Amway than it is to the Civil Rights Movement that it just isn't funny.  Given that Obama has invested such energy and resources into it, I sinceerely hope it pays off--but even if it does, it will not qualify as bold any more than Richard Vigaurie's pioneering use of direct-mail solicitation.  The best one can say is that Obama may be laying the groundwork for future boldness.  But this seems unlikely, given the fact that even Kennedy and Lakoff are saying his policies aren't much different from Clinton's.

Your arguments about Obama's statements, votes and actions, have yet to convince me that they point clearly to his lack of progressive views and willingness to stand up for them, especially in the face of his record in IL and other things he's said and done.

The argument here (in this diary) isn't that Obama isn't progressive.  For the sake of argumnt here, Lakoff has stipulated, and I've accpeted, that Obama and Clinton aren't noticably diffrent on policy positions.

What they do convince me is that he hasn't lived up to your standards of what a true progressive should do.  Others, including myself, disagree and, as the increasingly repetitive debate has continued here and in other forums, I don't think those disagreements are resolvable by any irrefutable set of facts.  They are largely a function of intepretations and value judgments, which lead to a focus on different subsets of the "facts" and interpretations thereof.  Given this, I see a lot of talking past each other and very little convincing of those with a different but equally valid point of view.  More importantly, I don't think the focus of these disagreements is the most important thing at issue with regard to Obama's candidacy.

Which is actually the whole point of this dairy.  It's not about how progressive Obama is or isn't on the level of policy.  Though the fact that such confusions continue to exist does seem inescapably relevant to claims about the boldness of his leadership, similarity to Reagan, etc.

This leads me back to Lakoff's point about "building a movement" that demands bold change and, as Tom Hayden said at HuffPo, one that "leads its leaders."  

I agree with rootless2 that:

    Obama is a hard core Alinsky-type pragmatist. He is the kind of person who thinks the historic failures of the Catholic church are not important when you are organizing a parish against a bad landlord and are looking for vehicles for organizing and getting the message across.

I respect this pragmatic priority on helping people today even if it means putting ideological purity on the backburner for the present moment.

 

Rootless2 is a habitual trader in strawman arguments and shameless caricatures of anyone who disagrees with him, and this is no exception. As a simple matter of fact, I spent a good deal of time in the 1980s doing Central American solidarity work, which involved a large number of activists from the faith community, including, obviously, a large number of Catholics, both immigrants and American-born.  The Catholic Church's complex internal divisions are inexricably interwoven into every aspect of these struggles, and Rootless2's psuedo-sophistication here is simply laughable compared to the actual complexities navigated by the thousands of activists I worked alongside.

It goes without saying that these peole were incredibly varied in their ideological outlooks.  Because we were concerned with saving people's lives, discussions of ideological diffrences rather naturally took a backseat.  There were some marginal folks very concerned about "ideological purity."  They almost never did much in the way of real hard work, and were bit players at best. The sorts of discussions that are dismissed here under the rubric of "ideological purity" are so broad and forgiving of differences that I just have to laugh to see them so labelled.

Okay, it's clear by now that (a) I can't keep up this pace and expect anyone to read it, and (b) there is so much misunderstanding that I'm never going to get around to points of agreement--even though there are some buried under here.

So let me step back, and ask you, simply, "Do you really think that Lakoff's analysis is a credible way to explain and justify Obama as he actually is [rather than as he might become]?" And if so, will you specifically address the questions I have raised about it?

Because, to be honest, it seems to me that you are trying to cobble together a quite different defense that might actually be much more fruitful to discuss, if it can be successfully extricated from a matrix of mistaken assumptions inhereted from earlier discussions.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Alinsky (0.00 / 0)
You write:ootless2 is a habitual trader in strawman arguments and shameless caricatures of anyone who disagrees with him, and this is no exception. As a simple matter of fact, I spent a good deal of time in the 1980s doing Central American solidarity work, which involved a large number of activists from the faith community, including, obviously, a large number of Catholics, both immigrants and American-born

And it's astounding how insistent you are that the discussion be about you. My point had nothing to do with your political history, about which I know not nor care not, but with an explanation of what Obama is doing. Anyone who has experience with the way the IAF works recognizes it, expressed brilliantly, in Obamas campaign. That's why your history as a leftwing organizer, your suggestions on how Obama could make his campaign less effective by embracing various silly themes, and complaints about his unwillingness to fight on issues that are important to you but not to his target audience, all miss the point.


[ Parent ]
My Point Was NOT About Me (0.00 / 0)
After all, I mentioned that I was but one of thousands.

My point was that progressive activists routinely transcend the cartoonish level of your imaginings, even in benighted places like LA, where only a relatively small minority (though significantly larger now than 20 years ago) are Alinsky-trained.

Curiously missing from your accounts is the central role of confrontation in Alinsky-style organizing, something that I understand Obama never was comfortable with.

I have nothing inherently against a cafeteria-style approach to organizing.  But I do have something against mystification and glorification of a brand name, whose core principles are then so strikingly honored in the breach.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
alinsky proposes confrontation for goal (0.00 / 0)
So digging in on the move-on vote would have served no purpose. First you build an organization. Then you attack. This is not cafeteria organizing at all. It is instead an effort to find basic economic and moral issues that create a popular movement. Thus, symbolic efforts like the move-on vote which in your world would have demonstrated something or another, in Obama's world simply provide the other side with a distraction. Obama, like Alinsky, insists on directing the debate to the issues he believes are important, and does not cooperate in oppositional attempts to divert onto e.g. flag amendments.

[ Parent ]
By skipping the vote (4.00 / 2)
and bringing up this criticism after the fact, though, he failed in redirecting the debate.  

If he wanted to redirect the debate toward something more substantive, he should have complained loudly before the vote, and got more people to walk out alongside him.  Then, at least, it wouldn't look like he was ducking out of a 'dammed if you do..." type situation.


[ Parent ]
Let's take personal responsibility for making it happen the next time... (4.00 / 1)
Obama's response was similar to what progressive bloggers did to Fox News when we demanded that our candidates drop out of the Nevada debate.
Obama, leading other dem sens, could have moved the line of political risk outside the Republican's idiotic frame with a boycott. Criticize them for political skullduggery and wasting time while making the weighty decision for Dems whether to even show up at all.
Whether in the campaign or the congress, if the Repubs lay a no-political-win trap, just boycott. Refuse to step into it.
A tactic simple enough to grasp, easy enough to assert, but let's remember--here in the blogosphere--to demand it is applied the next time.  

[ Parent ]
Nice Try (0.00 / 0)
But Obama is philosophically opposed to confrontation across the board, or so he proclaims.  Yet this goes directly against a core aspect of the entire Alinsky model.

You can try to hide this contradiction behind the single instance of the MoveOn vote, which you've obviously devoted hours to perfecting a defense of.

But--aside from the fact that Valatan has once again shot down your efforts--the contradiction is far more far-reaching than just one single incident; and your desperate attempt to draw attention away from that fact only makes it all the more telling.

There really isn't anything inherently wrong with Obama's pick-and-chose approach.  All that matters is whether his pick-and-chose selections actually work, and my doubts about that have nothing to do with his non-adherence to the purity of Alinsky's model.  (Though, personally, the confrontation aspect was one of the first things that attracted me.)  However, you seem to embrace Alinsky like some sort of talismanic figure (Alinsky would just have hated that) and therefore you can't be upfront about what's going on here.

I am genuinely interested in figuring out what's going on here, where ideas are leading to, on what they depend.  And, fortunately, there are some Obama supporters in the conversation here who seem to share that interest.

So we will hopefully see the unfolding of a more fruitful effort to understand what potentials and pitfalls there are, and we will do our best to do so, regardless of your knee-jerk ejaculatios that do more to obscure matters than to illuminate.

In the end, my sincere hope is that the bond of those who are thoughtful and fairminded will prove stronger for us than any allegiance to one particular candidate or another.  After all, the leaders are here to serve us. Or so they say.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
link? (0.00 / 0)
But Obama is philosophically opposed to confrontation across the board, or so he proclaims.  Yet this goes directly against a core aspect of the entire Alinsky model.

Where does he say that?
He didn't seem to have any problem confronting Hillary and Bill directly in South Carolina.


[ Parent ]
Well, Yeah (0.00 / 0)
You're making my point, dude!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
your narrative keeps your analysis wacky (0.00 / 0)
Your narrative is based on the assumption that Obama is peddling a "let's all get along" weak accomodationism. Since you start with that assumption, you conclude that he is against ever fighting on principle. But that's not what he says:
Hope is not blind optimism. It's not ignoring the enormity of the task before us or the roadblocks that stand in our path. Yes, the lobbyists will fight us. Yes, the Republican attack dogs will go after us in the general election. Yes, the problems of poverty and climate change and failing schools will resist easy repair. I know - I've been on the streets, I've been in the courts. I've watched legislation die because the powerful held sway and good intentions weren't fortified by political will, and I've watched a nation get mislead into war because no one had the judgment or the courage to ask the hard questions before we sent our troops to fight.


[ Parent ]
It's Not My Fault That Obama Is Inconsistent (4.00 / 1)
Nor is it my problem.

But, as a kool-aid drinker, it most definitely is yours.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
that's funny (0.00 / 0)
You claim he argues position A, I ask for a cite and show you that he actually argues the opposite, and you tell me it is not your fault that he is inconsistent! Nice work. Now find me support for your original claim.

[ Parent ]
No, This Started With You Putting Words In My Mouth (4.00 / 2)
You claimed:

Your narrative is based on the assumption that Obama is peddling a "let's all get along" weak accomodationism. Since you start with that assumption, you conclude that he is against ever fighting on principle.

But I never said that.  I said:

But if Obama doesn't have to surrender or dilute his principles for the sake of "bipartisanship," then why has he seldom been on the frontlines of any significant battle since joining the Senate?  Why did he miss the vote supporting MoveOn when Clinton did not?  Why did he buy into and repeat Bush's frame about Democrats cutting off funding while soldiers were in the field in Iraq?  Why does he regularly use rightwing language such as "tax relief"?

There have been numerous opportunities for Obama to show principled leadership, and he has not only passed them by, but often rationalized his behavior in ways that some find even worse than the behavior itself.  And it is from these sorts of situations that we have derived a good number of statements that amount to repudiations of standing on principal and fighting for it, when the chips are down.

There are only so many times you can be told that "this is not the time," or "this is not the right situation" or "the dog ate my statement of conscience" before the obvious inference is drawn: the pattern is the message.  Actions speak louder than words.

Now, instead of your words in my mouth, how about mine?

My actual belief is that I have no idea what Obama is doing, and neither does anyone else, and I've said so repeatedly. Well, maybe that's overstating it a wee bit.  But the general thrust is that I don't pretend to know the "real Obama" if such a creature even exists.  I simply note the inconsistencies, and the various different attempts to make sense of him, how they fall short, and how much they may succeed.

You, quite naturally, as a true believer, find this enormously, existentially threatening to your very identity, and thus must make me into a clearly defined "enemy" since I obviously am not a friend.  And so you trot out all your stereotypes, without any concern whatsoever for how un-credible they may be, because you really aren't even interestd in convincing anyone else.  You are only interested in convincing yourself.  That your identity as an Obama supporter makes you a good person.  And my identity as not an Obama supporter makes me a bad one.

Anyone who cares to look will note that you haven't said anything substantive at all about the diary I've posted here.  Indeed, in the broadest sense you're not alone.  Very little said here bears much relationship to the diary at all.  But that's all right.  I expect others to have their ongoing concerns, just as I have mine.  If the thoughts it engenders others to share seem far removed from mine, I'm still quite willing to meet them where they are.  This is, after all, a two-way street, and they have other sources of input to process and relate to what I share here.

But in your case, there's a crucial difference, since you show no signs whatsoever of an ongoing critical process.  It's all about preserving your imagined identity.  Narcissism to the nth degree.  And so long as that's what you're up to, don't expect me to pretend otherwise.

I will not buy your false premises for one nanosecond.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
thanks for the psychoanalysis, but your quote is at issue (0.00 / 0)
You write:
But Obama is philosophically opposed to confrontation across the board, or so he proclaims.

And I ask you to give me a basis for this claim. When did Obama explain that he was philosophically opposed to confrontation?

Since this is the heart of your argument, you no doubt have a pointer somewhere to a discussion of this "philosophy" on Obamas part. Why don't you enlighten me?


[ Parent ]
And I Said "Actions Speak Louder Than Words" (0.00 / 0)
It's hardly the heart of my argument.  It occured far down in comment thread, not in my diary, which you've utterly ignored.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Dude, either you stand up for that quote or not. n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
I DO Stand Up For It (0.00 / 0)
But more importantly, I refuse to let you mischaracterize it as central to my argument.

After spending several hours writing and putting together links for a diary that you have totally ignored, I simply feel no obligation to track down yet more links to substantiate a point that is common knowledge in the blogosphere to argue with a dishonest twit such as yourself,  who has not only ignored the original diary, but most of the points made in the comment threads as well.

But, since William has posted a couple of relevant links, I will simply refer you to him.

The depth of your dishonesty is plain for everyone to see, and does no credit whatsoever to the candidate you "support."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
BS (0.00 / 0)
You claim Obama is philosophically opposed to confrontation. You have no cite to back it up. After much wriggling, you come up with someone else's post which contains no quotes from Obama at all. And I'm making the dishonest argument?

[ Parent ]
You Might Be More Convincing (0.00 / 0)
If the Jesuits had not perfected your technique of apologetics centuries ago.

You can't build your entire campaign--and your conflict-ducking Senate career--on denouncing the politics of polarization, and then walk away from it by pointing to the fine print--fine print that never passes your lips when you're courting the millions of votes you need to get elected.

It's the duplicity, stupid!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
dodge (0.00 / 0)
My contention is that you misunderstand Obama's pitch - and that, among others, Lakoff understands him correctly. You make the claim that Obama has said he is philosophically opposed to confrontation - and I challenge this. And it turns out that you made it up. You have no basis for this claim except that it fits the storyline. So I'm not impressed by your accusations that I am dishonest or engaging in Jesuitical apologetics - you made up shit and got called on it. Plain and simple.

[ Parent ]
Another Big Lie From The Obamaphiles (0.00 / 0)
My contention is that you misunderstand Obama's pitch - and that, among others, Lakoff understands him correctly.

If that really were your contention, then you would have commented directly about my diary, and critiqued my analysis of Lakoff.  The arguments there are clearly delineated, and I spent a good deal of time choosing my words carefully, and deciding on what links to use.

Instead, you jump on a comment made on the fly deep in the bowels of a discussion thread where any pretense of substantive discussion had clearly already been abandoned.  You then thought you had a perfect Jesuitical openning and you pounced.

But, frankly, I'm not terribly impressed by high school debating techniques (yes, I was on the team, too, back in the day) and I don't think anyone else here that's not already hitting the kool aid is very impressed, either.

You see, clueless one, the very credibility of this sort of manuevering is what's at issue here.  So more of the same doesn't advance your case.  It simply presents more evidence to consider.

The question is, "Is this edifying?  Or is it pseudo-high-minded BS, desinged to distract from the fact that the Obama kool-aid crowd has not said word one about the diary itself?"

I leave it to the judgement of the readers to decide the answer for themselves.

p.s.  And no, I will not close with the "It's in your hands" story.  It was old as the hills when I was on the debate team in the 60s, I can't imagine they've stopped using since.  It couldn't get any hokier than it already was.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
ooh credibility (0.00 / 0)
If that really were your contention, then you would have commented directly about my diary, and critiqued my analysis of Lakoff.  The arguments there are clearly delineated, and I spent a good deal of time choosing my words carefully, and deciding on what links to use.

Ok. I don't contend what I think I contend, and your invention of a fundamentally incorrect "philosophy" for Obama doesn't count because it was deep within comments. All clear.


[ Parent ]
well, we can always go back to Krugman (4.00 / 3)
Krugman 12:17 --

At one extreme, Barack Obama insists that the problem with America is that our politics are so "bitter and partisan," and insists that he can get things done by ushering in a "different kind of politics."

At the opposite extreme, John Edwards blames the power of the wealthy and corporate interests for our problems, and says, in effect, that America needs another F.D.R. - a polarizing figure, the object of much hatred from the right, who nonetheless succeeded in making big changes.

Over the last few days Mr. Obama and Mr. Edwards have been conducting a long-range argument over health care that gets right to this issue. And I have to say that Mr. Obama comes off looking, well, naïve.

...

On Saturday Mr. Obama responded, this time criticizing Mr. Edwards by name. He declared that "We want to reduce the power of drug companies and insurance companies and so forth, but the notion that they will have no say-so at all in anything is just not realistic."

Hmm. Do Obama supporters who celebrate his hoped-for ability to bring us together realize that "us" includes the insurance and drug lobbies?

O.K., more seriously, it's actually Mr. Obama who's being unrealistic here, believing that the insurance and drug industries - which are, in large part, the cause of our health care problems - will be willing to play a constructive role in health reform. The fact is that there's no way to reduce the gross wastefulness of our health system without also reducing the profits of the industries that generate the waste.

As a result, drug and insurance companies - backed by the conservative movement as a whole - will be implacably opposed to any significant reforms. And what would Mr. Obama do then? "I'll get on television and say Harry and Louise are lying," he says. I'm sure the lobbyists are terrified.

As health care goes, so goes the rest of the progressive agenda. Anyone who thinks that the next president can achieve real change without bitter confrontation is living in a fantasy world.

Also, Jonathan Stein at MoJo with details on what "big table" meant (for anyone who missed Obama's recap of it at the last or second-to-last debate):

Obama says that he will initiate health care reform by sitting down at a big table with patients' advocates, health care economists, insurance companies, and other interested parties. Everyone would have the right to state their priorities, but the meeting would be CSPAN and the American people would know who is motivated by greed, who is negotiating in bad faith, and who is working against the interests of everyday Americans. Alter writes, "having triumphed over the drug and insurance companies in the court of public opinion, the legislative victories will follow."

Edwards says it is "a fantasy" to expect insurance companies and drug companies to negotiate their power away at a table such as Obama's. The only real option, Edwards says, is to exclude these corporate interests from the discussion and "take" their power away.

Assuming we don't buy into the Double Secret Theory of Change and Obama's rhetoric has something to do with what he's actually thinking, Obama is positioning himself to do one of two things:

1) The Obama administration will beat the insurance companies over the head with publicity if they decide to be implacable, with the expectation that it will work.  That's been tried arguably in the Clinton administration and definitely by Eliot Spitzer in NY.  Eliot went to Albany figuring that a massive electoral win and mondo free press would produce a little too much glare for the local power brokers, and he (and the rest of us) were sorely disappointed.  I've spent the last year and change banging my head against the wall as I've watched it fail in NY.
2) The Obama administration will seriously include the insurance companies and make an amicable deal with them -- a deal that by definition cannot be worth making, because, if we are to believe Krugman, there is no way we can significantly reduce the gross wastefulness of our system without screwing the insurance industry.

And even if we do buy into the Double Secret Theory of Change, the fact is he's boxing himself into a corner on healthcare -- he's (dishonestly) trashing progressive policy in the course of campaigning against Hillary...shouldn't we actually be boosting the brand of progressive policy?  I mean, honestly, even if he wanted to, how could Obama govern as a progressive after campaigning against Hillary Clinton from the right?  If it's the president's job to lead his party in Washington...how will Obama lead on the progressive agenda after running so far to the right?

I have no idea.


[ Parent ]
OK (0.00 / 0)
I'll try to address more of the specific points you raised  though, in my view, this has been done already in various comments by others and/or in prior threads.  Part of my argument was that one's answer to most of the questions you raise are very much a function of which specific pieces of Obama's documented statements and actions one focuses on, and that spending a lot of energy debating these questions misses the elements of Obama's candidacy that are most important.

If you have the time, it might help if you could list in rough bullet form the specific questions you raised that I (and others) didn't address, so I can be sure to focus on them when I reread your post (I'm not asking you to re-argue them, just to give me a pointer to the key questions you raised that weren't adequately addressed).

Another quick point...while I and others may be misunderstanding some of what you're saying, let me suggest that the misunderstanding goes both ways in this and prior discussion threads.


[ Parent ]
Kyl-Lieberman (0.00 / 0)
But if Obama doesn't have to surrender or dilute his principles for the sake of "bipartisanship," then why has he seldom been on the frontlines of any significant battle since joining the Senate?  Why did he miss the vote supporting MoveOn when Clinton did not?  

As a member of MoveOn, this is where you lost me Paul.  The MoveOn vote is a more important discriminator than Kyl-Lieberman?  Than the Iraq vote?  Than the dogged unwilingness to say, "My Iraq vote was a mistake?"  

 


You Stand By Your Allies (0.00 / 0)
It's really just as simple as that.

Donnie McClurkin much?

Obama was not in the Senate for the Iraq vote.  And that's just my point.  His "progressive leadership" seems highly context-dependent.  And that's not what I call leadership.

It certainly wasn't what Reagan delivered for the right.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Risk (4.00 / 4)
Obama is what we choose to read in Obama.  His campaign has skillfully portrayed him as a vague yet positive force.  The progressives have made a leap that being positive is progressive.  But it seems, time and time again, when it comes down to real evidence of his progressivism there are questions.

I also have doubts of his bringing people together, means bringing them to the progressive side, this is another leap that has been made.  I don't think the other side is gonna let go that easy.  They may be old and out of date, but they have lots to protect.  So, whatever he does, the end result will not be the collective progressive fantasy.    


[ Parent ]
"bold moves" and movement building? Huh? (4.00 / 1)
Things are getting too weird when Lakoff can concoct a sript like this:

Obama believes in bold moves and the building of a movement in which the bold moves are demanded by the people and celebrated when they happen.

Two Camp Obama trained volunteers, the foot soldiers of this   "movement" were at my front door yesterday.  They "loved" Obama and wanted to make sure that I would vote for the man who is transforming politics from all the bitter fighting of the past.  They urged me to read his book but couldn't give me one reason why they thought his positions would be preferable to anyone else's.  In fact, the best they could do is point me to his website if I was really that interested in issues.  

Later, a friend directed me to the following article from the Sacramento Bee last month about the training these movement builders received through Camp Obama.  The woman quoted, a lead organizer, is discussing her Obama conversion with volunteers-in-training:

She describes how (Obama)lit up the room with his wide smile, shook her hand and thanked her for volunteering.

"He looked at me, and the look in his eyes was worth 1,000 words," said Mack, now a regional field organizer. Obama hugged her and whispered something in her ear - she was so thrilled she doesn't remember what it was.

"Did that make more impact on you than if I had talked about his health care plan or his stance on the environment?" she asked.  She urged volunteers to hone their own stories of how they came to Obama - something they could compress into 30 seconds on the phone.

"Work on that, refine that, say it in the mirror," she said. "Get it down."

She told the volunteers that potential voters would no doubt confront them with policy questions. Mack's direction: Don't go there. Refer them to Obama's Web site, which includes enough material to sate any wonk.

Principles, issues, ideas? "Don't go there."  Just focus on that special Obama moment--this is the Obama movement.

This makes sense only in the context that the boldest thing Obama has done, opposing the Iraq War from the beginning (the only thing that still keeps me lingering on the fringes), happened well before he was on the national stage. Since then, essentially nada.  Apparently, for those who see Obama as a movement builder, avoiding bold moves actually translates into believing in bold moves!  

Stellaa is correct, "Obama is what we choose to read in Obama."    Campaigns are about getting the most votes, not creating movements.   This campaign is really good at presenting their guy as a "vague, but positive force."  And why not? He is young and charismatic and different and a great giver of vague, risk averse, but still postive speeches.  

Obama's folks are pushing this nebulous post-partison,  self actualizing, postivity, unity movement thingee because they're convinced it will get them more votes, plain and simple.  I think this time issues, basic principles and a fight the bastards spirit matters more.

They might be right.

But let's not confuse what's going on with the building of a real movement.

 


[ Parent ]
Actually... (0.00 / 0)
I think the country was ripe for the Democratic agenda without distractions of personality.  The issues were clear: economy, health care, stop the war, environment, restoring America's standing in the world, environment and making America competitive.  What the introduction or "Leader" politics has done is distract from turning on the issues.   We  had the people with us.  I think this has diluted the issues.  So many people are inspired but they don't know around what, really.  

Axelrod, Obama's campaign guy, basically worked on the Obama story, issues were secondary.  If elected, the Obama administration will be busy sustaining the story and personality.  What gets lost?  The issues.  So that is why I hold that Lakoff is wrong, we need the incremental, policy driven, technocrat.  Whoever is elected people will want to see transformation right away.  Obama is more likely to disappoint then you go back to the miasma and we don't get health care.  


[ Parent ]
We agree. (0.00 / 0)
The country was and is still ripe, but it won't last.  As I've written before, I fear we are blowing the moment.  Lackoff is indeed wrong here.  
 

[ Parent ]
This Really Is Creepily Cult -Like (4.00 / 1)
"He looked at me, and the look in his eyes was worth 1,000 words," said Mack, now a regional field organizer. Obama hugged her and whispered something in her ear - she was so thrilled she doesn't remember what it was.

"Did that make more impact on you than if I had talked about his health care plan or his stance on the environment?" she asked.  She urged volunteers to hone their own stories of how they came to Obama - something they could compress into 30 seconds on the phone.

"Work on that, refine that, say it in the mirror," she said. "Get it down."

She told the volunteers that potential voters would no doubt confront them with policy questions. Mack's direction: Don't go there. Refer them to Obama's Web site, which includes enough material to sate any wonk.

What? No love-bombing?  No pony?

All I can say is, Gary Hart, eat your heart out!

Once a bug, now a feature!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yes. I couldn't believe I missed this when it ran in the Bee... (0.00 / 0)
...I know quite well one of the volunteers interviewed here.   This Camp Obama training is apparently the brainchild or Marshall Ganz, who says in the piece the idea of the personal narratives is "to reclaim "values" politics from the Republican Party..."

When people tell their stories of how they made choices and what motivates them, they communicate their values, Ganz said in an interview.

"Values are not just concepts, they're feelings," Ganz said. "That's what dropped out of Democratic politics sometime in the '70s or '80s."

Some of us think what dropped out of Democratic politics sometime in the 70s or 80s was the stomach to fight like hell against the government takeover by the conservative corporate elite.  Ganz's journey from Cesar Chavez to this unity pony stuff (hat tip to Lambert) is my Exhibit A.


[ Parent ]
Ganz Has Been On A Downward Spiral For A Long Time Now (0.00 / 0)
but this is truly pathetic.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
The problem is with you and not the stars (0.00 / 0)
Your insistence that Obama take some convoluted stand on some trivial issue to resolve your doubts is peculiar. "Rankism", my God.  

Who Do I Think I Am? A Citizen? (4.00 / 1)
Yeah, democracy would be great, if it weren't for all the pesky voters.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I like your analysis and the questions (4.00 / 2)
it helps to create for me. As an engineer I like questions as a means for further understanding an issue and helping to answer the question I always ask - what problem are we trying to solve.

I've never doubted Obama's ability to inspire and now come to see that as a plus in terms of increasing participation. That leads to so many tangential questions and areas which could quickly lead to several articles. The possibilities include a massive shift in how progressive the rest of the country becomes because his followers are far more progressive than Obama. But this is far beyond the time I can apply to this and any inclination to do so so I'll try to stay on target.

Even if Obama doesn't pan out to be the next FDR and instead becomes a slightly-left version of Clinton we'll be far ahead of any Republican which is obvious. What's not as certain is where he is in relation to Hillary. I don't actually know or feel I know if Hillary will be simply Clinton II because she was the first behind the push for health care reform and I believe based on reports that I've read that she was vehemently opposed to NAFTA. Those are pretty big differentiators.

I keep several things in my mind as I listen to any politician these days - Bush's "I'm a uniter, not a divider" and Obama's venture into and quick exit from dkos. We all know about Bush but some of us are still trying to figure Obama out. I saw a quote from him where he characterized the response from some at dkos as predictable but found that a bit of sour grapes because if it was predictable why didn't he have a plan for dealing with it and finding a way to counteract it. Possibly it was a foray to grow his following and he knew all along that many there would be asking him "where's the beef" but didn't care.

There are just so many questions as there would be of anyone as there are questions other have of even me. It's easy to know what I will do or try to do but I obviously don't have the same level of trust of others who are as clearly ambitious as anyone would need to be to be President.


Many Good Points (4.00 / 1)
As an engineer I like questions as a means for further understanding an issue and helping to answer the question I always ask - what problem are we trying to solve.

An engineer, eh?

Why am I not surprised?

It's so frustating to have so many responses, in effect saying, "But what's the ANSWER?!!!"

It's such a welcome alternative to have someone write, instead, "But there are all these other questions, as well!"

The most telling for me, I think is this:

The possibilities include a massive shift in how progressive the rest of the country becomes because his followers are far more progressive than Obama.

This was Tom Hayden's perspective--also expressed as a possibility.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I hadn't thought about Tom Hayden (4.00 / 1)
in a very long time. It occurs to me how it's only just now that the generation who fought what Viet Nam represented are on the verge of winning. That's a long war for the soul of the America.

I'd been troubled by the unbridled passion of many Obama followers but when I thought about it longer I realized that what's truly scary is further apathy. They are picking up what was started nearly a generation and a half ago and it excites me that it's happening whoever brings it about.

Still, I worry about the many who say they won't vote if Obama loses. I'm not sure how to deal with that except to deal with it directly and remind them over and over of the alternatives. It's discouraging to hear as I have that some Obama supporters don't consider Republican leaders evil or at least less evil than Hillary. But I have to continue to talk and learn from them what they consider important so that I can talk to them from their perspective rather than mine.

Their political horizon is not so far away but they know that something is not right with America and Hillary represents an America that they want to put further behind. It's difficult to get them see this election as possibly a battle and not the end of the war with the forces who are out to change the nature of American ideals.

I don't know where it will all end but I know it's important to me to be a part of the fight.


[ Parent ]
True Enough (0.00 / 0)
What I find troubling about Obama in all this is that he actively encourages this sort of limited time-horizon thinking.

Generational warfare is a rightwing meme, for gosh sakes!

Of course, when I was that age, there were a lot of folks who had a similarly limited outlook.  But political leaders like Tom Hayden always had a lot more respect for and interest in history.

Plus, the fact that a lot more people had been on the hook for the draft meant that knowledge of recent Vietnamese history went a lot further then than knowledge of recent Mideast history goes today.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Makes a lot of sense (4.00 / 2)
I can see what you are saying here, and I agree with it. What Lakoff is saying would be true if it actually applied to Obama and not Clinton, but it isn't clear that it does.

A lot of what is happening is much more based on simple cultural identity with the Democratic Party, I think. That, and Obama appears more like an empty vessel that even people like Lakoff can pour their ideals into.  


Exactly and that is by design. (4.00 / 1)
The empty vessel has much more potential than one you know is filled with milk or in fact any other liquid. Better to make people believe they get to choose how it will be filled or that they know what's already in it.

[ Parent ]
Yep. We're playing 'Let's make a deal' (0.00 / 0)
Do we want Hillary Clinton, or 'what's in the box'?

[ Parent ]
Always take whats behind the other door (0.00 / 0)
You'll win two out of three times.

Just saying.


[ Parent ]
Hey You Two! Your Fogitude Is Showing! (4.00 / 3)
It's like, not doors anymore. It's boxes.

And it's not "Let's Make A Deal." It's "Deal or No Deal."

Why do you insist on fighting the game show wars of yesteryear?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The empty vessel: Continued (4.00 / 1)
If I want milk, I will take the vessel with milk.  If I want a vessel that I don't know what it will be filled with, then I will not choose that.  I want milk.  I don't want the possibility of milk, the hope for milk, or that somehow the vessel will transcend into an everlasting spring of milk.  

[ Parent ]
Empty vessel or Oops he did not know again! (4.00 / 1)
Well when it comes to politics there is one thing about these vessels, they have to fill up with money, so the empty part, is bought and sold.
GALESBURG, Ill. - Maytag workers whose jobs were shipped to Mexico serve as consistent characters in Barack Obama's stump speech. He employs their stories in railing against corporations that use trade pacts to replace well-paid union workers with low-cost foreign ones.
But the union that represented most of those Galesburg workers isn't impressed with Obama's advocacy. It has endorsed his Democratic rival, Hillary Clinton. Its leaders say they wish he had done more about their members' plight.
What rankles some is what Obama didn't do even as he expressed solidarity four years ago with workers mounting a desperate fight to save their jobs.

Obama had a special connection to Maytag: Lester Crown, one of the company's directors and biggest investors whose family, records show, has raised tens of thousands of dollars for Obama's campaigns since 2003. But Crown says Obama never raised the fate of the Galesburg plant with him, and the billionaire industrialist insists any jawboning would have been futile.

Obama's chief political strategist, David Axelrod, said late Thursday that the senator did not know Crown sat on Maytag's board until the Tribune noted it last September in a story about the closing of the Maytag headquarters in Newton, Iowa.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/...


[ Parent ]
Reaching out (4.00 / 1)
Reagan thrived on demonization, even as he flashed his Hollywood grin.

In part this is quite understandable-demonizing the other is a core conservative principle, while reaching out to the other is a core liberal principle.  This follows quite directly from Lakoff's own work on the contrasting family models that structure liberal and conservative beliefs-the Nurturant Parent and the Strict Father.

To me, this gets to the core of both Obama's problem and the problem of those trying to analyze him.  Obama's instinct is always to reach out and be inclusive.  Obama was wrong on Donnie McClurkin, but it was a mistake of inclusion; one I suspect we will see repeated in various forms, though he did handle a similar problem much better recently.  As I've said before, intolerance of intolerance has a built in oxymoron that must always be handled with care, good humor and dignity.

(Note this is the case I most agree with you, which is why I chose this to bring up.  The MoveOn non-vote I actually agree with Obama straight-up, which makes for far less interesting discussion.)

But I certainly agree that Obama can get better.  The good news is he has gotten better as he has gone through this process.  It seems clear to me he has heard many of these criticism and has responded; a good sign for multiple reasons.

I've read enough about Obama that I feel very comfortable that he is who he claims to be.  How well that works out in the White House remains to be seen, but I'm comfortable finding out.  He will disappoint, but less so than any alternative.


Well, Mark (4.00 / 1)
I'm not even sure who Obama claims to be.

But my deeper response here would be that an inclusionary instinct that's not informed by critical judgement is just something you don't want in a leader.  I'm all in favor of an inclusionary orientation--meaning things like a value system that says people should be included as much as possible, and a dedication to strategic planning to make inclusion happen.

But instinct untempered by judgment will get you into trouble every time, regardless of whether the instinct is generally good or evil.  And what I see from Obama is much more on the instinctive side, much less on the strategic planning.

My dignitarian proposal I diaried about yesterday would be an example of taking significant steps toward a more strategic planning approach--to cite a specific example of what I'm talking about.  My diary about the great risk shift also falls into that category, since the multifacted nature of the risk shift means that it is a broadly inclusive policy frame.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Common Cause (0.00 / 0)
He claims to be someone who looks for common cause on issues among people who disagree on other issues.

[ Parent ]
Every politician (4.00 / 1)
in the universe, even Teddy Kennedy, looks for common cause among people who disagree on other issues.


[ Parent ]
Community organizer vs. Politician (0.00 / 0)
Two different creatures.  Two different purposes.  Ok, Obama's proposal of how he will design the health care, get everyone in a room, Congress, insurance, pharmas etc.  on CSPAN and have everyone talk (he wants the biggest chair).

So, what are we going to do, process the nuance of public policy with butcher paper and multi colored  pens?   There is a process of developing programs and policies.  I think Hillary will hit the ground running with this one.  She knows the process, she will not be making up something and get stuck in process.  My god, she learned something.  

Organizers are enamored with process (sorry worked way too many years in local politics).  Process is their life, it's not product oriented, getting a program.  It's about the inclusion.  Well, sorry we don't have time, we need national healthcare and we need it now.  


[ Parent ]
Ted Kennedy (0.00 / 0)
Exactly.  Ted Kennedy is both one of the more liberal members of congress and gets tons of legislation accomplished by working for common cause with others, a great example how this actually works and isn't all about ponies and faerie tales.  Obama takes that basic concept and pushes is further out as his central message to the electorate, looking for common cause with the people as well as (or, perhaps, instead of) fellow law makers.  This puts a very friendly face on progressive ideas.


[ Parent ]
Inclusion (0.00 / 0)
Why is inclusion and absolute virtue in a politician?  Are there times that you have to exclude?  

Do you in any way think that the Obama campaign, maybe directly or indirectly, did not benefit from the demonization of Hillary and the Clintons?  Do you think the is completely innocent in that regard?  And why or how do you give them that absolution?  

If Obama is given the benefit of the doubt with no perceived motive for the negatives, are you willing to give the same benefits to Hillary and Bill Clinton?  


[ Parent ]
"I just can't find him" (4.00 / 1)
If there is such a thing as disembodied policy, there is also such a thing as disembodied inspiration - which is what I think you're describing.
What I'm hearing from some Obamites is "He makes me feel good". Well, that's good, but inspiration usually refers to inspiration to do something. With at least some Obmamites it seems to stop with inspiration. There is no there there. Now we're hearing that the "issues of the 60's" are irrelevant and Democratic partisan bickering is the problem.
What is really scary to me is what seems to be blind faith in following the Inspirational Leader. We are asked to trust that he will be a progressive or will somehow fix problems by inspiring Unity. It is hard to distinguish that from a fascist impulse; I don't think that is the direction it will take, but how do we know what direction it will take? On what is that faith based? I'm very uncomfortable with it. I think we have had enough "trust us" government. Like you, I want Obama to reveal himself.
So while there is much that I dislike in Clinton's policies and actions, there is a lot to like too, and she is at least a known commodity, unlike the Inspirational Leader.
And I agree that Lakoff's points in that article turn to froth as soon as one examines them.
 

Right, Dean. (0.00 / 0)
Lakoff's points turn to froth because they were froth to start with.  Virtually everything he said about Reagan came from the shallow journalism, the commentators, and the apologists of that period.  It is all descriptive, and none of it is analytical.  Lakoff sometimes has valuable insights, but he has completely misunderstood the Reagan Revolution.  He thinks it won because of its inspirational message. I don't think it had an inspirational message.  I think the inspirational message was what superficial observers came up with to explain it, reasoning (or positing) backwards from its success.  Somebody always wants to explain to us why things are the way they are. Then they can claim that those things existence itself proves that their explanations are correct.

Paul provided some insight on the real reasons Reagan won two terms.  Carter had become intolerably frustrating because he focused himself on the Iran hostage problem, but made no progress of any kind in solving it.  The economy was so bad that new terminology had to be invented for it, "stagflation". There were third-party deductions from the usual Democratic vote.  Liberalism had been bitterly criticized from both directions for many years because of its inability to coherently deal with the Vietnam war.

At the other end of the spectrum, Ford's presidency had represented Republicanism as amorphous, blundering, and bewildering.  Repigs turned to Reagan because he was forceful, coherent, and activist.  He was a man who was obviously going to do something even if it was wrong.  Most of it was wrong, but at least we were moving, not stalled in the swamp with no plan of how to get out.

Reagan got a second term because he shook off the bullet someone used to try to kill him, and because he had made himself indispensible to Repigs by providing them a rational for their mean-spiritedness and parsimony.  Among other reasons.  Mondale should have won, but Mondale refused to fight. Reagan never refused to fight.

But Lakoff thinks all the happy-talk which was dreamed up to explain why Reaganism was so wonderful was true, real, or somehow valid.  Horseshit!  It was apologetics, pure and simple.

Lakeoff tries to tell us the reasons why he intuits a mirage of Obama, and why the existence of the mirage is a good thing.  Paul has totally demolished his arguments on this score by showing that Lakoff has no basis for claiming that his mirage has any basis in reality.  It could still be right--- it's just that Lakoff hasn't adduced any evidence that it is, other than his intuition.  Not good enough.

I've lately started to lean more and more to Obama.  One reason is that someone reminded me that Bill Clinton chose to give GHW Bush a pass on Iran Contra. But I still find Obama's vagueness about his plans for implementing his goals very daunting, and I have to say that the mindless devotion of many of his followers, and their willingness to turn vicious towards those who question their faith is repellent.  

I want to say to Paul, you meticulously examined and criticized Lakoff's arguments.  I appreciate your analysis, and the detail of your examination.  They show that your analytical powers are considerable.  But Lakoff's article is a house of cards. I think it could be dismissed as fantasy even without your exacting work.  Cold comfort, huh?  


[ Parent ]
Foreign Perspective (0.00 / 0)
Interesting point made by a Spiegel, German magazine writer:  

How did I forget, I was one of the heartbroken children

Obama is not the first to use this approach. But history shows it can end in disaster. In 1972, the candidacy of Senator George McGovern caught fire among young and educated Democrats united in their opposition to the Vietnam War. To the surprise of the party establishment, the soft-spoken, dovish McGovern began running away with primary victories in such liberal states as Wisconsin. Because of the youthful exuberance of his following -- much like Obama's today -- the press began calling the McGovern juggernaut "the children's crusade." As one who was there, I remember how closely it felt like an extension of the civil rights movement.

In the end, the children won, marginalizing the adults (the party regulars) and giving McGovern the Democratic Party's presidential nomination. But in the general election, McGovern failed disastrously, losing 49 of 50 states to Richard M. Nixon. The movement that could gain control of the Democratic Party, always tilting left during the primary season, was fatally out of touch with the rest of America when it came to a head-to-head battle with the Republicans. It is a lesson that Bill Clinton never forgot during his more centrist campaign in 1992.

http://www.spiegel.de/internat...


Campaign Too Liberal? (0.00 / 0)
Yet, I don't think one can say that Obama has run his campaign too far to the left.

[ Parent ]
thank you (0.00 / 0)
i'm so thankful for smart people like you who don't just gobble up the "hope" bait hook, line, and sinker.  

imho, i don't think it's in obama's interest to clarify and solidify himself regarding the substantive issues.  the breadth of his appeal depends precisely on the amorphousness of his hope/change/unity theme--thereby allowing him the flexibility to govern with whatever policies he wants in the end.  (something which makes me, for one, veeeeery nervous.)  

making his policy stands and his plans more concrete would only burst the bubble that allows each of us to believe he will govern the way we "hope" he will.


From a 23 year old (0.00 / 0)
I received this from my daughter and found it powerful.  Some may call it cynical, but she is no cynic.  

I think to capitalize on people's dreams and wishes, when you are just your average appeasing, compromising, not particularly progressive, politician is almost cruel. Obama's fall from the pedestal will be a hard one to watch because of what he has come to symbolize. But Hilary is not an ideal, she is not a concept, she is a human being with thousands of visible and televised scars, and therefore I think we better know what to expect from her, we can prepare ourselves for her inevitable humanity.



rationalizing (4.00 / 1)
For some reason Obama supporters seem more in need to justify, i.e. rationalize, their choice. This is done either by finding fault with Clinton or imputing some qualities that they admire to Obama.

We understand that people pick their favorites based upon factors which they can't explain clearly (just look at the world of attraction to the opposite sex), so I'm puzzled by the need to explain.

Picking on the basis of ill-understood emotions is perfectly "rational" when the future is unknown and even well-formulated policies may be inadequate to address new challenges.

Anyone who had studied the Bush circle could have predicted the type of response to 9/11 that they adopted. Contrast this with the type of response that Clinton chose in response to the first WTC attack.

In the case of Obama vs Hillary Clinton it is not clear how they view the world abroad. Attempts to demonize Clinton for the Iraq vote are an overreach and Obama has no track record on foreign policy.

So, the best one can do is to pick a person based upon a "faith" that they will do the "right thing". Since the pick is a hunch there is no need to rationalize your choice.

Apparently there is some residual subconscious discomfort among Obama supporters. I wonder what it is?

Policies not Politics


Cognitive Dissonance? (0.00 / 0)
Seems like.

After all, the demographics he appeals to most are not your classic anti-intellectuals.

So they'd be more internally pressured to rationalize than those who are more comfortable with--even proud of--being gut-driven.

Although it is rather striking how similar to "having a beer with" the Camp Obama training seems to be.

Hmmmmm.  I wonder what the Obama drink would be?

Double latte?  New Coke? Kool Aid?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Perfect example (0.00 / 0)
Here's a column from this week's "Nation" by Christopher Hayes on why he is for Obama. It's not clear if he is trying to convince the reader or himself.

The Choice

The question then becomes this: which of the two Democratic candidates is more likely to bring to fruition a new progressive majority? I believe, passionately and deeply, if occasionally waveringly, that it's Barack Obama.

That anyone could believe any viable candidate as able to bring about a progressive majority is amazing. There is no sign that the majority of people in this country have any interest in being "progressive".

What's with all the wishful thinking?

Policies not Politics


[ Parent ]
Actually, I Think Not (0.00 / 0)
He admits to wavering.  I think that shows a higher level of self-reflection.

Have to read the whole thing to be sure, but this doesn't advance your case as I understand it.

Furthermore, I'm totally down with Tom Hayden on this--the people are out ahead of the candidates, from the President on down.  That's where the potential lies, and I think that polling does indeed suggest that a majority of people are interested in being progressive.  They just don't have the framework to explain it to them.

And, thanks partly to Obama, they're not about to get it anytime soon.

He thinks he can deliver the goods without the grocery bag.  But carrying them can by can across the parking lot can get really old, really fast.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Discomfort (4.00 / 1)
Apparently there is some residual subconscious discomfort among Obama supporters. I wonder what it is?

So, if I say something in support of the guy I plan to vote for, I'm just proving I need to justify and rationalize my choice.  So when I say something that agrees with the critics I'm just proving them correct, of course.  But when I disagree with the critics I'm also proving them correct.  Nice trick, that.  Heads you win, tails I lose.

I find it funny that the #1 complaint about Obama (from people other than Paul, who makes actual points) is that many people are excited about an Obama presidency.

That and all the talk of people getting along.  Because, you know, getting along is a conservative talking point... or something.

Look, let's do a Clintonesk reality check.  Obama is a politician who is seeking power, as is everyone else you will ever get to vote for in you life.  His is not perfect, has made mistakes and will continue to make mistakes.

He also has millions of Americans, particularly young people, excited about politics and activism.  A whole slue of new voters are coming into the process and many of them actively being trained.  Even if he proves to just be an average Democratic president, just passing what he can on the margins and following the advice of left of center economists and foreign policy advisers, this new wave of activists remain.  

And they are going to push him and others to do more.  And they will be around long after his presidency.

And should Obama even begin to tap into his potential as president...?  I hope we can all agree there is huge upside here.  Some, including me, have called him high risk, high reward.  But really, I don't think the risk is that high.  The risk is he turns into Clinton.  Given that the other choice is Clinton, that isn't much of a risk, is it?


[ Parent ]
Relax, Mark. This Doesn't Apply To You (4.00 / 1)
Look, you've been honest about your doubts.  That bespeaks a level of self-consciousness about your decision-making process that puts you on a different level.

What's being talked about here is the too-common phenomena of making arguments based on imaginary evidence--which, admittedly plays a part in all campaigns, but seems to be a disproportionately large part of what's happening with Obama supports of a certainly breathless style.

Look, let's do a Clintonesk reality check.  Obama is a politician who is seeking power, as is everyone else you will ever get to vote for in you life.

That's precisely the sort of reality-base grounding that I wish were much more common among Obama supporters.  More skepticism and less hype would actually make a more convincing case, for me.

You can all it old fogitude if you want to, but I've felt this way since about the age of 14 or so, when the first Buddhist monk set himself on fire in Vietnam, and I realized without question that "we" were on the wrong side.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Sure, but (0.00 / 0)
But to push back the other way, I can't watch the the Yes, We Can song or the artsified 2002 speech without getting a tear in my eye.  Even though the man is just human, the effect goes beyond that.

There is a large part of me that solidly believes we'll turn Obama into exactly what we need, whether he is ready, real or not.  Even he claims it is more about empowering people than himself.  I tend to believe him, but ultimately it matters little because it is actually true nonetheless.


[ Parent ]
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