The Clinton Campaign on Delegates

by: Chris Bowers

Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 11:31


Because of the issues I raised in today's earlier article on super delegates determining the nominee, like Matt I jumped on a conference call with the Clinton campaign. I prepared myself by typing out the following question:

Do you think there is a meaningful difference in the democratic, lower d, quality of super delegates and pledged delegates, or that there could be a crisis of legitimacy in the Democratic nominee if he or she wins the nomination without the support of the majority of pledged delegates?

To my surprise, the campaign actually took my question, along with those from he likes of Ron Brownstein and Judy Woodruff (that was pretty cool--my zero years of journalist training are finally paying off). Although I lack sophisticated recording techniques, I did manage to take down most of their response. The basic gist of their response was as follows:

The rules the party has put in place to choose its nominee are not the rules of the Clinton campaign and, just like the Obama campaign, we are doing what we can under those rules to secure the requisite number of delegates for the nomination. One way to avoid the situation described above is to figure out some way to honor the votes of Michigan and Florida, where there was record turnout. Counting the delegates in Florida and Michigan is a civil rights issue, and a solution needs to be figured out before the convention. (Note: italicized text should not be considered a direct quote, just my quick transcription.)

Fascinating stuff. If Florida was counted, a crude estimate from Florida results would indicate that Clinton would receive about 111 delegates to Obama's 74, minus some from both totals based on Edwards receiving 14% (and thus more than 15% in many congressional districts). In Michigan, the situation is a lot trickier, since neither Obama nor Edwards were on the ballot. Still, based on the Michigan results and using the same crude math, Michigan pledged delegate seating would break 74 for Clinton, and 54 for uncommitted. Overall, between the two states, Clinton nets a delegate advantage of 57, plus or minus how support breaks among Edwards delegates.

Personally, after Super Tuesday, I think the Obama campaign should agree to some sort of compromise solution, where they agree to seat the Michigan and Florida delegations as listed above, but with two caveats. First, Obama receives all of the uncommitted delegates in Michigan (although that could be a negotiating point). Second, both campaigns agree that whoever wins the most pledged delegates after the final primaries and caucuses on June 3rd will receive the endorsement of the other candidate at the convention. It is an equitable solution that would not really alter the state of the campaign while solving a whole range of potential disputes. It would preserving voting rights, preventing a brokered convention, avoiding strained relations with two large swing states, and guaranteeing the nominee is the popular choice of the primary electorate. Simply the process, and just get it done before we have a real disaster on our hands.

Also, the Clinton campaign promised to be ahead in total delegates after Super Tuesday, but did not make the same guarantee about being ahead in pledged delegates. Further, the talk among the press corps was entirely about delegates, not winning states. As such, it seems that delegates are going to be the main storyline coming out of Super Tuesday, not who won what state. That makes coming to an agreement such as the one outlined above all the more important.

Update: Yeah, wiping out 2.3 million votes because they didn't follow the strictures of the almighty DNC rules and bylaws committee sounds really fair and democratic to me. It sounds about as fair and democratic as allowing 796 people to have 20% of the vote in determining the presidential nominee of a political party with fifty million members.

Denying the partisan franchise to Michigan and Florida voters is just as undemocratic as elevating super delegates. As per my suggested compromise agreement above, I say seat Florida and Michigan, but also take super delegates out of the equation.

Chris Bowers :: The Clinton Campaign on Delegates

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I've been thinking for a while (0.00 / 0)
Why not follow the Republicans and just count half of the delegates from FL and MI? This could be done following some variation of the rules you are suggesting. I hate to say the Republicans are right about anything, but in this case they seem to have found a fairer solution.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

I find the Clinton reponse (4.00 / 6)
lacking in any sort of genuineness. on one hand they suggest the rules are the rules, on the other they want to break the rules in a situation that clearly benefits them. they trot out "civil rights" as an argument even though MI and FL had ample warning not to host their elections when they did, and they ignore that the civil rights of Mr. Obama and Mr. Edwards were violated by their names not being on the ballot.

The "deal" you outline for the Obama camp does not sound very good to me. I think Obama does better to encourage MI and FL to hold new elections, and to battle this in the media, make the case that he has won the popular delegates (if he does in fact do so). I think the strongest angle for him is to make a direct correlation between this nomination and the general election of 2000.  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


FYI - typo (0.00 / 0)
"In Michigan, the situation is a lot trickier, since neither Obama nor Clinton were on the ballot"

that should read "Obama nor Edwards".

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


You're Kidding Right? (4.00 / 6)
So, we tell everyone in Michigan and Florida that their delegates won't count, and then after the fact we say, "Ah ha! Fooled you! They do count!"

And we do this just to compromise with Hillary? What about all the people who stayed home because they knew that the election was a waste of time? Screw them! All for the sake of making Hillary shut her mouth?


Agreed. (4.00 / 3)
Totally nuts.

Let Florida and Michigan have another round primary, or maybe caucuses.

Heck, if the other states have all voted and there's not a winner, all eyes will be on them.

But for the Dem. party to put in rules, then not only renege on those rules but reward the person who didn't listen would be the most pathetic outcome I could imagine.


[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 3)
I agree. I'm all for having a re-do in Michigan and Florida. But you can't tell the people that an event is merely a non-binding poll and then change your mind after the fact. That's what would make the result seem illegitimate, because it would be illegitimate.

We have all kinds of processes to establish the rules of an election a full year or more before the polling takes place, so that no one can suddenly change the rules a few weeks beforehand. It's doubly ridiculous to let someone change the rules of an election after the polling happens.


[ Parent ]
It would be kind of like (4.00 / 2)
Rewarding an accomplice in violations of the Constitution with a job as the chief law enforcement officer in the country.

Really, if they let the rulebreakers in, no one is going to obey the rules the next time we have a contested campaign because they can point to this year as a precedent.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
This is a mess!! (4.00 / 3)
But I can't see the Obama camp giving Hillary 50+ delegates from primaries that the DNC said did not count and that Obama did not campaign in.  If he does that, he might as well withdraw from the race immediately.  

In exchange for wiping out her 50+ advantage in superdelegates? (0.00 / 0)
I dunno, it's not as crazy as it sounds.  

[ Parent ]
Hundreds of superdelegates (0.00 / 0)
Have not yet endorsed.  There's absolutely no reason to think that if Obama has a majority of pledged delegates, he won't also end up with enough superdelegates to secure him the nomination.  Remember - nobody wants a fiasco, and the ones who haven't endorsed already are presumably more keen to avoid a fiasco than to support one candidate or the other.

[ Parent ]
the MI + FL compromise (4.00 / 3)
you propose is exactly the end result Clinton was going for when she made seating the delegates such a big issue. She didn't care about them--she wanted the +57 delegates NOW. They make a huge difference on her scorecard now, and in the wake of Super Tuesday, and moving through February.

There is no logical reason for Obama to support that now. He can and probably will support it further down the road (unless the states hold new caucuses).

But an +57 for Clinton might not even be enough to put her over the top down the road. If the MI and FL delegates count, that means the nominating threshold has to rise too, from 2025 to 2208.


Ain't gonna me no deal (4.00 / 1)
This ain't going to happen. Never, ever. There's no need for it and there's no, absolutely no reason to believe the Obama campaign would agree to a 'compromise' designed to benefit HRC in the zero sum calculation.

It's absolutely NOT a civil rights issue (4.00 / 4)
The Florida Democratic Party failed to follow the rules set by the DNC (and agreed to by FL delegates to the DNC) and were sanctioned by the loss of their delegates. The Michigan Democratic Party failed to follow the rules set by the DNC (and agreed to by MI delegates to the DNC) and were sanctioned with the loss of their delegates.

The issue is the right of political parties to determine their own process for selecting a nominee and a federal judge ruled based on well-established precedent that the DNC was fully within their rights to sanction Florida and Michigan.

What Wolfson is doing is no different than what Republicans did during Bush v. Gore -- trying to create a narrative in the press where votes that were legally ruled out of order are somehow ruled back in -- all according to what is more favorable to his client, Hillary Clinton.

Florida and Michigan Democrats have recourse in this process --- throw the bums out of their party apparatus who made such boneheaded, risky moves that disenfranchised their own voters and then had the balls to lie about it their constituents. What isn't fair is to award ANY delegates based on Michigan or Florida's beauty pagaents.

If the FL and MI Democratic Parties decide to hold binding caucuses in FL and MI after Pennsylvania as I believe would be possible under the sanctions issued by the DNC then that is one thing -- but to parse out votes based on exit polls or some other method is pure bunk.

The Obama campaign is an organizing campaign. To award delegates in Florida based on a beauty contest where voters only contact with the candidates was national media is a farce. Are campaigns about voter contact or national media?

John McCain


A piece of advice (0.00 / 0)
Your argument would be a lot more compelling if you weren't so confused about some pretty basic facts.  The Florida democratic party did not decide to move the date of the primary.  The Republican-controlled state legislature made that decision.  Some Dems went along with it, largely because it was popular and they knew they couldn't stop the legislation anyway.  Either way, it had nothing to do with the state party leadership.

I don't know if that makes it a "civil rights" issue, but Florida democrats got a raw deal.  

Sometimes a little research goes a long way...

John McCain: Health insurance for low income children represents an "unfunded liability."


[ Parent ]
Except of course it doesn't change his argument... (0.00 / 0)
He isn't arguing that the DNC was right, he is arguing it is within their power to enforce the sanctions as they have and now that it is done FL and MI Democrats need to demand their local party apparatus abide by the sanctions and hold binding elections after Pennsylvania.  At this point it is a moot point who is to blame for moving up the dates.  I imagine if the local Democrats in either state moved proactively to try and stop the date changes, the DNC would have been more willing to compromise, but I believe (at least in Florida) they waited until the writing was on the wall and then tried to undo it in a last second appeal to amend the legislation that they had already helped to push through.  Either way the damage is done and it is up to the Democratic citizens in those states to demand the local party give them a binding result.

[ Parent ]
I have a different suggestion (0.00 / 0)
Seat Florida, and allow Michigan to vote again.  It would be unfair to Michiganders to just assume that the uncommitted delegates should go to Obama; some of those who voted for Clinton as the only name on the ballot might have preferred Obama or Edwards.

Floridians had the opportunity to choose any of the three (at the time) leading candidates.  Michiganders did not.

One option is to have Michigan vote again in early August, when they have their primary election for House and Senate seats.  That would be August 5.  That's still almost three weeks before the national convention.

Another option would be for the people of Michigan to choose an earlier date.  I would think that 2-3 months lead time would suffice, so maybe it could be in May.


bad suggestion (4.00 / 3)
I am a Florida voter for Obama who didnt bother to vote because over and over.. all we heard was that the vote was worthless because no delegates would be awarded.  

If the rules suddenly change, I'm gonna have to insist that I be given an opportunity to vote.  


[ Parent ]
As a Michigander (4.00 / 5)
I can't tell you how frigging aggravating it is for non-Michiganders to come up with really clever rules that effectively take what we did on February 15 and tell us--screw the rules in place when you actually voted, we're going to change the rules after the fact and we will DICTATE to you what your votes mean after we've changed the rules.

We had a clusterfuck. As joejoejoe has said, that's a matter between us and our elected officials who gambled and gave us a clusterfuck. But that is not an open invitation for you or Hillary--neither of whom were elected in a binding election here in MI--to tell us how you're going to reinterpret our clusterfuck votes in the way that suits you.  


... (0.00 / 0)
So you think the rules should stand and MI and Fl should not count? Or do you think a do-over would be a better idea? Just curious. I think if I was in your situation I would want a do-over - though that sound expensive and, therefore, unlikely.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
Unless a do-over is just combined wiht the normal MI primary (0.00 / 0)
Then the extra cost is essentially the cost of printing another ballot line, and counting one more ballot punch, plus more turnout, the latter of which is considered to be good, generally.

[ Parent ]
I completely forgot (0.00 / 0)
That's right, the regular primary date! I would say deus ex machina, but I'm probably the only idiot who didn't realize this.
This is a good solution and I hope that the involved parties work towards making it happen.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
Ahem, regular primary date is in AUGUST (0.00 / 0)
The deux-et-machina arrives too late to do any good.

That would actually make a good play.  Which means it must have been done before...


[ Parent ]
Why don't we do this in the first place? (0.00 / 0)
Having all the Congressional and presidential primaries on the same day within each state sounds like it would save time and money.  Plus, it would stop the ridiculously early votes.

Michigan has an open primary.   Would Democrats who followed Kos's call and voted for Romney be ineligible to vote in the Democratic primary?

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
So, what would you suggest? (0.00 / 0)
Just leave it as a clusterfuck then, and do nothing?

You don't offer any solutions here. You just say it was a clusterfuck, and that non-Michiganders should stay out of it.

Sorry to irritate you by trying to seat your delegation, and for others to try and not seat your delegation. But seriously, what would you suggest?


[ Parent ]
That Word Does Not Mean What You Think It means (4.00 / 2)
"Sorry to irritate you by trying to seat your delegation..."

That's just the thing. The "delegation" you're talking about is not his delegation, nor the delegation selected by his state in an election. It's a made-up delegation.


[ Parent ]
A do-over seems fairest, and suggested by several here (0.00 / 0)
n/t

[ Parent ]
I suggest we wait two months (4.00 / 1)
To see whether this is really going to the convention or not. I'm not convinced that it will be--particularly if the dollars are what they appear.

If, in two month's time, we have a candidate without either MI or FL (though frankly, if FL wants to count, let them, but to count MI would be absurd for anyone claiming to believe in democracy), then we SEAT the MI delegates, with the understanding that they will support the nominee (which is how it often works anyway).

If, after two months, after all the states which didn't jump the gun, which believed they would have no say but actually might, have voted. If, after two months, the MI and FL delegates would be decisive, then you do a caucus with jsut the two candidates (note, MI's caucuses aren't really caucuses, but anyway, a party-run election).

But it is WAY too premature to be having this discussion. And having it plays right into Hillary's ploy.


[ Parent ]
I hear you, but it isn't too early (4.00 / 1)
The problem is approaching very fast. After March 11th, 85% of pledged delegates will have been selected. If we don't have a solution in place by then, it will be too late.

We have five weeks to figure this out. It can't be put on the backburner.  


[ Parent ]
Chris (4.00 / 1)
Sorry, we in MI didn't know we WEREN'T doing a caucus until less than 45 days before the date in question. If we wait 2 months, we still have plenty of time to schedule a caucus. It   may be too late for you to be able to pundit. But frankly, your unilaterally deciding this disenfranchises Texas and a bunch of other states just as badly as iif you suddently award illegal delegates before they get to cast their vote. What happened to your generous civil rights stance?

[ Parent ]
Time (4.00 / 1)
Moreover, why can't we say what I just did. We make the decision after all the states that played by the rules vote, so they get some reward for following the rules.

If, after they vote, there still is not a clear winner (don't think it will happen, but it's possible), only THEN does that trigger the caucus for MI and FL.


[ Parent ]
Re: (0.00 / 0)
Do you mean New Hampshire won't get to help determine the nomination?  Because they quite clearly violated the rules, both by going ahead of their assigned date and by leapfrogging Nevada in the assigned order; the only difference is that the DNC decided not to announce any penalty for NH.

[ Parent ]
Also (4.00 / 1)
It would be nice if people would stop propagating the fiction that there is any doubt we'll be seated--there is no doubt. The question is whether or not the votes from a clusterfuck get counted in a way that is decisive for the election. I can tell you, if they are it will be DEVASTATING for the MI party; as it is a LOT of really committed volunteers are just fed up with the larger party.

Nothing you do will affect whether our delegation gets seated or not. Nothing. And the only thing Hillary is doing with her ploy is risking incredibly dire damage to the party--more than a contested convention would involve.  


[ Parent ]
Just curious (0.00 / 0)
How are you so certain these delegates will be seated? And do you think they may be seated but not allowed to vote? Is it possible to be seated but not allowed to vote?

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
I have heard it (4.00 / 1)
From a number of trusted sources, both at the national level and the state level.

We will be seated in such a way as to ensure our clusterfuck is not counted in a way that would have any influence on the election.


[ Parent ]
Sounds fair enough (0.00 / 0)
However, I lack these same trusted sources, so I find it hard to share your confidence that this will be the definite solution.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
Maybe doing nothing is the best course (0.00 / 0)
Like Iraq, it may not be fixable in the short run and any attempt at a solution will just make the problem worse.  I'm not saying that is definitely the case, but it is an option that we have to consider as possibly the least worst.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
I'm from Michigan (4.00 / 1)
   and I blame the state legislature and the state Democratic party leaders for this problem. They fucked up - period. Since the first primary was against established rules, we should have a caucus or just not be counted. I voted for Romney to screw McCain, and my wife decided not to vote at all since it wouldn't count. If Clinton wants to change the rules, then Michigan needs a caucus. This wouldn't be a "do-over" since by the rules, the first primary doesn't count. I'm against any rules changes without a new vote!    

[ Parent ]
also mccain and huck should give romney some delegates... (0.00 / 0)
...since romney won the iowa straw poll.

sorry, when someone suggests breaking the rules you don't "compromise" with them by letting them break the rules a little bit.

and the point about not wanting to alienate two swing states is bogus. those voters who turned out in record numbers for a non-binding vote are not going to turn around and vote republican just because the DNC stripped their delegates.


The update to this post is just stupid (4.00 / 2)
I think what the DNC did is idiotic. But acting like the MI and FL primaries were not impacted by the rules is equally moronic. These were not valid elections. So counting them doesn't work. Yesterday, it was posted that Obama's margin of error was was about 100 delegates (100 delegates behind after Feb 5 was ok, 200 was not) and now he is just supposed give up 50 delegates. Come on. Let us see where the super delegates are after Feb 5 than trading 50 FL and MI delegates for a straight up and down using voted for delegates might be a decent trade. It is only a decent trade if he knows he is going to lose on superdelegates which I am not sure is a given.

It's not DNC rules, it's Federal Law (4.00 / 2)
PBS, 2004: "One concrete power the national party does have over state parties is the seating of delegates at the national convention, where the party candidate is nominated for the presidential race. If a state party selects its delegates in a way the national party feels is inappropriate, then the national party will simply not recognize that state's delegates -- for example, the DNC refused to acknowledge the Mississippi Democratic Party delegation that had been elected through racially exclusionary rules at the 1964 Democratic National Convention.

There is also legal precedent that favors national parties over state parties when election rules conflict. According to Mayer, several clashes between state and national parties, notably between the DNC and the Wisconsin Democratic Party, as well as the Supreme Court ruling on Cousins v. Wigoda (1975), favored the national party over the state parties. In Cousins v. Wigoda, two sets of delegates claimed they had been elected to represent Illinois at the Democratic National Convention -- one group according to state law, the other group backed by the DNC but not according to state law. Illinois courts found the DNC delegates in violation, but the Supreme Court ultimately ruled in favor of the DNC.

"But that's just a matter of legality -- nobody doubted that the national party has it within their rights," Mayer said. "It's more about political power."

St. Petersberg Times, 12/7/07: "U.S. District Judge Robert Hinkle threw out a lawsuit that aimed to force the national party to seat Florida delegates at the national convention and command presidential candidates to campaign in Florida.

"We're pleased that the court respected the necessity of the Democratic National Committee to enforce its rules about the selection of delegates to the convention and to treat all of the state Democratic parties across the country in a fair and consistent and equitable way," said Joe Sandler, the DNC's attorney.[..]

[Judge Hinkle] ruled that forcing the national party to break its own primary schedule rules by seating Florida delegates would violate the party's First Amendment right to assemble.

"There can be a schedule, there need not be a free-for-all and the entity that can set the schedule is the national party," said Hinkle while pronouncing his ruling. "Florida has to comply with the same rules and procedures as everybody else and does not get to have its own way."

Forgive me if as a Florida voter I don't wilt under the searing brilliance of the Bowers/Wolfson plan. I'm comfortable that living under the rule of law and established precedent is a better outcome than an ex-post facto hash made by insiders. The judiciary is about the only branch that has even come close to working these past 7 years and I'm content to live with the rulings of a federal court. If I'm undemocratic for abiding by rules and not a scheme cooked up on a conference call -- so be it.

John McCain


[ Parent ]
Why Now? (4.00 / 6)
The bottom line here is simple.  Where were all these concerns  about disenfranchisement--both from the Clinton campaign, the media, and the blogosphere--before the votes actually took place?

If anyone had actually cared, they would have been pointing out that not having Edwards and Obama on the ticket was disenfranchising Michigan voters in and of itself.

This? This is just a dirty trick in every sense of the word.


Good point (4.00 / 1)
I agree with Justin. If there was a civil rights issue in Florida or Michigan, then why did all of the candidates sign a pledge not to campaign in those states? The Clintons should have made these arguments before Iowa, then they would have more moral force. Now it just appears to be scrapping for an advantage, regardless of how ignobly attained.

Moreover, if the delegates are seated, then what will stop states in the next presidential election from moving their primaries up to January 15? Once they know that the DNC will not enforce consequences to rule violations, then there are no rules.


[ Parent ]
OK, let all agree that none of us (0.00 / 0)
are going to campaign.  OK. Agreed! Good deal!  Wait a minute, I won!  I've changed my mind.  This is a serious civil rights matter.  Let's all agree to count the votes of the states we all agreed not to campaign in.  Votes in states where there wasn't a campaign should count just as much as voted in states where there was a campaign.  Hell, there's plenty of countries that have votes like that all the time. O.K. Agreed!  Good deal!  It's time for California to move its primary up to September 1.  If the DNC doesn't like it they can stick it!  nobody's gonna mess with California.

Chris, I disagree. (4.00 / 1)
You cannot divine what the vote would have been in those states had they played by the rules. If you want to seat their delegates, split them 50/50. Manufacturing an outcome by which one candidate gets more delegates than the other is even less democratic than following the Democratic Party's inane rule. No one is wiping out the votes. It was understood going in that they were, in effect, a straw vote.

I do agree that your suggestion that  "both campaigns agree that whoever wins the most pledged delegates after the final primaries and caucuses on June 3rd will receive the endorsement of the other candidate at the convention" is a fair one.

I think the quote (if accurate) from the Clinton campaign is totally disingenuous and, frankly, telling about their modus operandi.  

John McCain doesn't care about Vets.



Pigs is Pigs! (0.00 / 0)
Delegates is delegates.  Where were you on this issue before it became someone's possible path to the nomination?  The time to struggle to change rules is before the games begin! Sounds sour grapey at this point.  Fight it in a couple of years or is there a hidden agenda here?

MIchigan and Florida (0.00 / 0)
I am feeling really bugged by these arguments that Michigan's and Florida's delegates should be seated. At MyDD people are jumping on this issue like rabid dogs.

Could someone please respond directly to these arguments:

  1. The Michigan and Florida results are of seriously questionable validity, considering the circumstances.
  2. If Michigan and Florida get their seats, then the DNC completely loses control over the primary calendar in future elections.

For those who cede these points but say that democracy (little "d") trumps these concerns.... who said that the nomination process was supposed to be democratic? If it were truly democratic, then we would hold a national primary on one day. But for a variety of reasons, some quite valid, the party has decided not to do it that way.

If you don't like that, then start your own party.


The truth about Saxby Chambliss


Re: (0.00 / 0)
No one can trump the DNC except the DNC.  The delegates in Denver will be more than able to evaluate the arguments with the best interests of the party in mind, if it comes down to that.

Michigan and Florida lost huge amounts of revenue and publicity as a result of holding elections that "didn't count."  Even if the delegates are totally reinstated, in no way will other states be encouraged to repeat the feat in four years.  


[ Parent ]
future nominations (0.00 / 0)

Michigan and Florida lost huge amounts of revenue and publicity as a result of holding elections that "didn't count."  Even if the delegates are totally reinstated, in no way will other states be encouraged to repeat the feat in four years.

The states would very much be encouraged, because they would know that the DNC had lost credibility and would probably be bluffing next time around.

I guess the bottom line is that the DNC chose its position early on, and now it must know that it has to take a pretty hard line to enforce that decision. Otherwise it and the party is scrod.

The truth about Saxby Chambliss


[ Parent ]
Re: (0.00 / 0)
It doesn't matter if people think the DNC is bluffing next time.  You still don't get any revenues or publicity from running an election that doesn't count, even if you think it's going to be retroactively counted later on.  You don't get the candidate appearances and the party-building exercises.

Michigan and Florida got virtually nothing out of their early primaries.  The only thing they might get, at the end of the day, is to have their delegates counted - something they could have gotten anyway if they had simply kept to the schedule.

The fact that MI and FL did what they did should be the best evidence that they were looking to get something out of the process beyond just having their delegates counted.  Regardless of the final ruling, no state is going to be eager to repeat the experience.

Finally, there's a general legal principle that's applicable here: penalties that appear draconian are less effective than reasonable penalties.  If the penalty had been the loss of half the delegates, it would be much easier to make it stick.  Making the penalty this severe just makes everyone eager to find a way to work around the penalty.


[ Parent ]
dysfunctional (0.00 / 0)
So you're saying that if the DNC backs down this time around, and states move their primaries up again next time, then the DNC would bluff and then back down again? Now that's what I call dysfunctional.


Finally, there's a general legal principle that's applicable here: penalties that appear draconian are less effective than reasonable penalties.  If the penalty had been the loss of half the delegates, it would be much easier to make it stick.  Making the penalty this severe just makes everyone eager to find a way to work around the penalty.

Never heard of that "legal" principle. Sounds more political than legal. And as a political principle, Machiavelli would surely disagree.

The truth about Saxby Chambliss

[ Parent ]
Re: (0.00 / 0)
Okay, at this point it's obviously you're just arguing to argue.  I've made my case.

[ Parent ]
But when everyone ignores the DNC... (0.00 / 0)
If they seat the delegates this time based on these results, the candidates will just ignore the DNC themselves and so will the media and it will just be business as usual, except the state might actually get more revenue by having moved up to a more prominent position in the primary calendar.  No future candidate will want to be the next Obama and lose delegates because they didn't contest a primary, even if the DNC declared it non-binding.  And no one but a front runner will agree to not campaign in a state, since they know they will likely concede delegates to the person with the most name-recognition going in. No, the DNC can't compromise, once this bridge is burned they will have to be even more draconian and stick to their guns even more firmly to ever get control back.

[ Parent ]
There will be no compromise on FL and MI (0.00 / 0)
and I really wish you guys would stop suggesting there will be. Over and over and over again - you are wrong about this. There cannot be a compromise when there was NO fair election. Period.  

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