Sound Judgment: Does The War Vote Still Resonate?

by: Chris Bowers

Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 14:59


Obama, like Howard Dean in 2004, has long flogged that his opposition to the war before the invasion is demonstrative of his “better judgment” than virtually every other candidate. For example, last night he “swiped” at Clinton on this matter:

As someone who opposed the war from long before it started, including marching in several pre-war protests against the impending invasion, I think Obama is basically right: he did have better judgment, at least on that issue and at least at that time. However, it is much more difficult to convince me that opposing the Iraq war before it began is clearly demonstrative either of superior judgment on Iraq now, or that that it is demonstrative of better judgment in general. I know that will not be a popular position to take online, especially considering how we repeatedly mock the media for promoting pundits who were flat wrong on Iraq, and demoting those who were right. It is extremely frustrating that bad judgment has been rewarded by most established news outlets, especially since anti-war voices were all but entirely blacked out by those same news outlets before the war. The injustice, not to mention continuing danger to our democracy this implies, seems very real.

However, I would still be lying if I said the continued focus on the AUMF resonated with me. I don’t think it resonates with many Americans, either. Here is why:
Chris Bowers :: Sound Judgment: Does The War Vote Still Resonate?
  • Don’t scold: Currently, between 58% and 64% of the American people think invading Iraq was a bad idea (source). At the time of the authorization for the use of military force, between 58% and 68% of the American people though invading Iraq was a good idea (source). That means that between 16% and 32%, or about one-quarter, of the American public has changed their minds on Iraq since the time of the AUMF. In a real sense, telling Senator Clinton and other candidates they had bad judgment on this issue is very much telling one-quarter of the country they had bad judgment on this issue. People do not like scolding candidates, and that is a large percentage of the electorate to be scolding.

  • What is your judgment on Iraq now? While I was in the 30-40% of the public that opposed the war from the beginning, that does not mean I find the withdrawal plans of everyone in that 30-40% equally acceptable, and always superior to the other 60-70% of the country. Far from it, I have repeatedly made it clear that I think Bill Richardson’s plan is far and away the best plan. For example, here on Open Left, both the Obama and Richardson campaigns responded to my queries on what tasks they would have American troops continue to perform in Iraq once in office. The Richardson campaign said none and none. The Obama campaign said that it was impossible to know how many troops would be required to stay in Iraq. As someone who opposed the war from the beginning, I clearly and vastly prefer Richardson’s plan, which I think shows better judgment on Iraq now.

    It simply does not seem like good judgment to me to argue that you will have American troops in Iraq to quell violence—ethnic or otherwise—when a huge amount of the violence in Iraq is directed against American troops. It also does not strike me as good judgment to say that you will end the war, but keep tens of thousands of American troops in Iraq (which some candidates are also saying). I don’t think I am alone on this, either. Just because I opposed the war before many other people did does not mean I am necessarily more prone to accept the redeployment plans of others who opposed it from the start.

  • Show a Broad Pattern. If a candidate wanted to show that his or her opposition to the Iraq war before the invasion is part of a broad pattern of sound judgment on foreign policy and military matters, then it should be coupled with a statement of general principle on foreign policy and military matters. Just being right on Iraq being wrong does not demonstrate a pattern in and of itself. Arguing against things like “the war on terror,” or against the entire neo-conservative philosophy of pre-emptive military invasion against countries that did not attack you, would demonstrate such a pattern of sound judgment. If you were right on Iraq, but you think pre-emptive military invasion is a good idea in some cases, again that does not strike me as sound judgment. It strikes me mainly as being lucky when it came to Iraq.
I really don’t think the AUMF vote narrative is resonating nationwide, and that the Obama campaign needs to try a different tactic. Specifically, that would include an improved redeployment plan, and coupling discussions of the AUMF vote with discussions of general principles on foreign policy. All of that, taken together, would indeed show a pattern of sound judgment on foreign policy and military matters. Unfortunately, right now, this is not a pattern I see any announced candidate fitting into. Everyone has done at least one of the following: supported / voted for the AUMF, presented a plan that leaves far too many American troops in Iraq, or failed to articulate their opposition to the Iraq war as part of a general philosophy that rejects conservative notions on military matters and foreign policy. OK, maybe Congressman Kucinich is the exception, but I am also not willing to support candidates who don’t support themselves by running full-blown campaigns (Kucinich ran full bore in 2004, but I'm not seeing it in 2008), nor am I willing to support candidates who openly give the finger to the movement by debating on Fox News. He hits both of those categories.

In short, I am not feeling the “superior judgment” argument based on the AUMF, and I don’t think many people are nationwide, either. But, maybe I am wrong. Wouldn’t be the first time. I’d like to hear what you think.

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Good points (0.00 / 0)
I think you are right about why the superior judgment argument on AUMF only gets you so far. It is the reason this freshman senator could even dream of being in this position, but I think he has gotten all of the mileage he can out of it.

Now that he has gained traction on the belief that 'Washington must change' (AUMF vote an obvious reason), he must start putting forth a vision and steps on how he would change Washington. I think his stepped up rhetoric on lobbyists is a hopeful sign.

 


agreed (0.00 / 0)
If you look at the pre-war interview he gave, it looks almost prophetic, but that's not going to be enough.

I'm expecting a sharp left turn from Obama when he realizes that he can put Clinton on the spot for her right-wing economics (also, the flag burning amendment). If he starts to differentiate himself on those economic issues,  Hillary will either have to deny her DLC history or make uncomfortable campaign promises.


[ Parent ]
He voted for the flag amendment. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
No, he didn't (0.00 / 0)
Nor did Clinton. What they supported was a law to ban flagburning, a law that would be only a little less odious than a constitutional amendment.

Both Clinton and Obama are happy to compromise on the Bill of Rights for political gain. How's this for a cringe inducing comment:

And though I have never seen anyone burn a flag, if I did, it would take every ounce of restraint I had not to haul off and hit them.

Obamamania, baby, catch the fever!

http://obama.senate....



[ Parent ]
His rhetoric is imporving, I agree (4.00 / 2)
And I'll write about that at a later date. But watching this video reminds me of Dean's final ad in Iowa back in 2004, once again flogging the "I opposed the war from the start" thing. It just felt worn out at that point.

It does only get you so far, and then you have to start broadening your message to show a real pattern of superior judgment.



[ Parent ]
I agree. For me, Obama was right in (4.00 / 1)
2002 (that was my position then), but when he was elected in 2004, his senate votes were mediocre at best (against Kerry-Feingold, for Gregg Resolution, for all funding bills until May 2007).  I also believe his rhetoric about "playing chicken with the troops" was not useful to ending the war sooner.

Then in May, he and Clinton finally voted correctly, in my view. 

Obama should have been the natural antiwar candidate, and I saw him as that until I got to know his record better, but many anti war folks gravitated to Edwards.

Obama's 2002 position is a plus, but it does seem to be nearly enough.  People look forward, not backward.  He has been unable to use 2002 to show how would act differently in 2009.  His Senate record on foreign policy is closer to Clinton than one would expect based on their respective positions in 2002.  He simply is not getting much traction on the 2002 speech.


[ Parent ]
No Action, No Traction! (0.00 / 0)
He simply is not getting much traction on the 2002 speech.

Because of all the other things you point to.  Since he got to the Senate he hasn't taken actions consistent with that speech.  He simply hasn't.  And that's why I find it so hard to consider supporting him.  He simply isn't the person I mistook him to be.  Fool me once and all that jazz.

The thing is, I can't for life of me understand why he's been so pathetic on Iraq in the Senate.  He had a perfect opportunity to show progressive leadership.  He had run on that background. It was why he won the primary.  He didn't have to do anything other than continue on that course.  Instead, like the Bob Dylan song, he threw it all away.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Obama and the war (0.00 / 0)
Chris:

I agree wholehardily with you. I am an Obama supporter.

I wish he would take Richardson's position on the war especially with the withdrawl of all US  troops including residual forces.

I wrote the Obama campaign about this issue. I am also surprised that Edwards has not taken this position. Both of these candidates are giving Hillary a free ride.

Her position would entail a residual force structure of between 60-70,000 american troops. These troops would get caught up in the secterian civil war and the war would not end.

I believe the american people want all of our troops out of Iraq and no residual force.


[ Parent ]
Judgement (0.00 / 0)
On the whole excellent analysis.  But I think in part you are confusing conclusion with judgement.  Many people were opposed to the War but arrived at that conclusion through different reasoning,  Kucinich and Obama for instance.  The judgement Obama displayed was through his analysis, through being able to look at the situation and weigh the pros and cons and possible consequences which might occur based on our action.  That was a display of good judgement.

The big difference between then and now is then was basically a static situation and now we are in a fluid one.  When I hear proposals like Richardson's I don't believe he is either exercising good judgement or really being straight with us when he says no residual forces.  He doesn't know, none of us knows, how successful we will be at diplomacy, how the Iraqis will react, how much other regions will become involved.  Any plan which doesn't allow for residual troops if necessary is not allowing for the fluid nature of the situation.  We can't guarantee anything right now, we can only offer a new direction with a specific plan of how to reach our goal.  It really comes down to the if necessary part where the person we entrust in that needs to be someone we can actually trust.  Someone with sound reasoning and sound judgement.

And that's where you are absolutely right, we need to hear a broad articulation of principles or broad pattern as you put it.  Because Obama's my guy, I am aware that he has articulated exactly this back in April.  I imagine others have done so as well.  Here's the link to Barack's for you to judge for yourself:

http://www.barackoba...



Kucinich on Iraq (0.00 / 0)
I'm not sure what "reasoning" or "judgment" Obama used, but don't try to pretend that he had some greater knowledge of the lack of threat Iraq posed.

Kucinich, December 2002 (http://kucinich.hous...):

Kucinich: Time For Administration To Show its Evidence

Washington, Dec 19, 2002 - It is time for the Administration to end its war rhetoric and present evidence to justify their claims that Iraq has usable weapons of mass destruction, stated Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH) today.

Kucinich, Ranking Member of the House Government Reform Subcommittee on National Security, Veterans Affairs and International Relations issued the following statement:

"Thus far, the Administration has failed to show any evidence of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs to the U.S. Congress, to the inspectors at the United Nations (UN), or to the American people.

"Any information the Administration has that counters the Iraqi disclosure should be provided to the United Nations immediately. Iraq has made its disclosure and now is the appropriate time for the Administration to present its evidence.

"Any intelligence information that the Administration may have can only assist the United Nation Monitoring Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in filling the 'gaps and omissions' that the Administration claims are in the Iraqi report to the UN. In doing so, the Administration can only assist the UN weapons inspectors disarm Iraq, which it claims it is committed to doing.

"If the Administration plans to preempt the UN weapons inspections process, and begin a war early next year, as recent news reports have indicated, then they owe it to the UN and the American people to present evidence to justify a war. Despite their recent increase in rhetoric and 'war talk', the fact remains that to this date they have not provided evidence for a war."

Did Obama have some other reason for opposing the war than the fact that they didn't appear to have any weapons and weren't the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks?

Those who have had a chance for four years and could not produce peace should not be given another chance. --Richard Nixon, 9 October 1968


[ Parent ]
Obama on Iraq (0.00 / 0)
Perhaps it was presumptuous on my part to assume Dennis's opposition was basically pacifist based.  I had never read the quote you provided.  Thank you.

Barack didn't hang his objection on whether or not they had WMD and as far as 9/11 he called for Bush to "finish the fight with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings."  But his most concise articulation is contained in this paragraph:


But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history. I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of Al Qaeda. I am not opposed to all wars. I'm opposed to dumb wars.

To take it a step farther, without quoting the whole speech, he also made this assessment, which really goes to the judgement of the players involved in the decision making.  In her speech in the Senate when voting, Hillary makes it clear she is voting to go to War only as a last resort, but what I fault her on is her judgement of this particular President and the gang surrounding him.  And this is an important test of judgement since as President she would be called upon to make judgments of other evil men.  Barack nailed it pretty well in his political assessment:


What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income - to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression. That's what I'm opposed to.  A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

http://www.barackoba...


[ Parent ]
Pacifist (0.00 / 0)
That was far from the only statement Kucinich made in the run-up to the war, both on the House floor and off. And most of them were along the same lines.

What boggles my mind is that people are making the claim that Obama or anyone else has more principles reasons for being against the war than Kucinich or -- just for starters -- the 60% of House Democrats who voted against the AUMF. They're not pacifists. They're the majority of Democrats in Congress, yet somehow their voice gets drowned out by people like Clinton, Biden, Edwards, Dodd and others because they're in the "serious" chamber of Congress. Yeah, the one where 60% of the Democrats got it wrong.

So it doesn't surprise me that you assumed Kucinich was opposed to the war on "pacifist" grounds rather than on simple knowledge that anyone with half a brain should have known about Iraq's capability to create WMD or strike the US. It's more irritating than surprising, because people have this image of anyone who opposed the war (Obama excepted) as some sort of airy-fairy freaks. Certainly the Democrats who have to run away from their record of voting for this disaster and trusting George W. Bush with the levers of power in order to gain people's trust for their own shots at the levers have done a great job of making that case.

Those who have had a chance for four years and could not produce peace should not be given another chance. --Richard Nixon, 9 October 1968


[ Parent ]
Disagree, sort of (4.00 / 7)
I don't think it's a real race changer--that is, I don't think Obama will catch Clinton or put away Edwards by talking about his initital opposition to the war--but I think there's a non-trivial number of progressives who can't support Edwards or Clinton because of their intitial support for the war. Not a huge number--say, 3-4 percent of primary voters--but enough to potentially make the difference. It would be more if Obama had been a US Senator, rather than a state senator.

Obama's great political, and policy, failing was not to come out strongly for defunding. He disrupted his own narrative. A year ago, he could've voted for Kerry-Feingold and carried out his campaign calling for passage of Reid-Feingold. He could've become THE voice of antiwar movement. Edwards would've had a hard time finding room on his left, and Clinton would've found it impossible to blur differences with him. Instead, he not only opposed defunding; he argued that defunding would hurt the troops, undermining the push for defunding. Now Kucinich can rightly say he's the only one who opposed the war and defunding, and Edwards can rightly criticize Obama for not leading and Bill Clinton can say there's little difference between Hillary's Iraq record and Obama's without getting laughed out of the room.

Obama compounded his error by coming out with an overly hawkish national security plan that calls for 92,000 troops. To a lot of progressives, he's starting to look less like Michael Moore and more like Brent Snowcroft, a realist, not a critic of militarism.

What's more, his support for the war was the one area, other than the death penalty (which he doesn't seem to discuss anymore) on which he was unmistakably to the left of Edwards. Instead, he let Edwards get to the left of him on defunding. That, combined with JRE's more progressive positions on climate change, nuclear power, health care, taxes, and trade allows Edwards to credibly claim the True-Progressive mantel.

In some progressive circles, the choice is between Edwards and Kucinich; Obama doesn't even register.


Fair enough (4.00 / 1)
"I think there's a non-trivial number of progressives who can't support Edwards or Clinton because of their intitial support for the war. Not a huge number--say, 3-4 percent of primary voters--but enough to potentially make the difference. It would be more if Obama had been a US Senator, rather than a state senator."

Point taken. I guess the question really is--just how large is this block of voters? I'm sure the Obama campaign knows. Antoher question is--doesn't he already have those voters? It seems like he should, because people who take that issue so seriously would already know how people voted. But I'm just asking, because I honestly don't know.

I'd still like to see something broader before deciding to back him.

[ Parent ]
True (4.00 / 2)
Although there are probably some antiwar Gore voters he could still scoop up.

And I don't know what you're waiting for; it seems to me that Obama's made it very clear with his speech on national security and his article in Foreign Affairs that his foreign policy is standard issue neoliberism, with a realist bent. For him to do what you want to do would be to disavow the core ideas expressed in his main policy statements.

On a related note, I missed the discussion about endorsements, but I was surprised to hear that you're neutral. After the Edwards's blogger blowup, you said you were an Edwards supporter. What'd he do to lose your support? What didn't you like? Was it his standing up to Fox News or his support for net neutrality? Or maybe it was his opposition to the GWOT? Or focusing on poverty?


[ Parent ]
Kucinich supporters (0.00 / 0)
1-2% of those pure pacifists are probably Kucinich supporters.

[ Parent ]
Differentiation from Clinton (0.00 / 0)
He needs to differentiate from Clinton and so does Edwards on Iraq.

They both propose withdrawing all combat troops, but leaving a residual force with the same kind s of missions for those troops which would mean the continuation of the war. To me that is the essence of the issue.

They could state a different mission for the residual force or a 2nd stage withdrawl of these forces after the combat troops have left. Put a date certain for such a withdrawl.


[ Parent ]
Where? (0.00 / 0)
You are talking about some pretty rareified air if you are discussing a group that is arguing between Edwards and Kucinich and ignoring everyone else.  I'd love to live in the version of America where that would be the debate, but unfortunately we haven't been there realistically for close to 40 years.

[ Parent ]
Edwards more progressive on Nuclear power? (0.00 / 0)
I'm gonna have to strongly disagree with you on that one.  I think if we want to make any sort of significant dents into carbon emmissions from energy production, nuclear will have to be part of the solution.  It's too big, efficient, and clean of a source of energy to leave it out.  Edwards refuses to use it, Obama says he would consider it as part of an energy plan.

John McCain <3 lobbyists

[ Parent ]
wrong wrong wrong (4.00 / 1)
Nuclear power costs too much in time and money, even if we can develop ways to store the waste (another task that will cost time and money.) Better that we spend our resources on cleaner sources of energy in a distributed network.

Join us at the Missouri community blog Show Me Progress!

[ Parent ]
uh no (0.00 / 0)
Check out this cost comparison of the State of California's different energy sources.  The variable costs (upkeep, fuel, etc) are cheaper than coal, in some cases cheaper than hydro, and way the hell cheaper than solar, wind, and natural gas.  They unfortunately don't have data on the cost of building a plant since it hasn't happened in 30 years in the US, but I think the fact that France has 77% of their power coming from nuclear means it can't be that unreasonable.

Then check out this article from Tree Hugger talking about how nuclear is cheaper than pretty much everything else, and how even they are taking a look at it.

John McCain <3 lobbyists


[ Parent ]
I agree (0.00 / 0)
I think the Obama camp considered all of that and came to a different conclusion.  They probably calculated that a tack left on the war would help him in the primary but hurt him in the general.  Bad move as I think it made the nomination Hillary's to lose. 

Overall though I agree with Chris.  I think Dean may have went a little too far with the "I was right, you were wrong" thing.  Good judgment isn't leadership and it speaks to the larger problem of liberals to think intellect and knowledge is superior to human emotion.


[ Parent ]
The claim is for sound judgment (4.00 / 2)
Certainly my initial enthusiastic feelings about Obama were because of his stance against the AUMF vote.  I thought that showed sound judgment.  However when he spoke up and voted against Kerry-Feingold I had to take another look at him, and over time found more and more of his positions contrary to what I would expect of someone who is progressive and not a DC centrist.  His support of Lieberman last year jarred me.  I put my support behind Clark until February when I realized he wasn't running.  I gradually turned to Edwards because of his populist stance.  The truth be told I wasn't overly impressed with his apology.  However the more I saw him I saw the passion to get our troops out of Iraq.  The more I saw Clinton and Obama the more I felt they were making the political calculation.  At this time when our troops and Iraqis keep dying, political calculation is not what I want.  When Obama voted for the Gregg amendment I really could no longer consider him at all. 

I agree judgment is a fluid thing that is revealed in patterns not in one vote or speech.  Thus counting on a speech from 5 years ago seems pretty stale to me when recent actions seem to be contradictory.

Join other progressives at EENRblog


Why the "War Vote" Matters (0.00 / 0)
The vote by the US Congress to give George W. Bush a "Blank Check" to invade Iraq any time he pleased was a complete and total abication of the Constitutionally directed duty of the US Congress.

Anything short of a declaration of war was far short of that duty.

The resolution that the Congress passed (AUMF?) was an attempt to subvert that duty.  Yes, it MIGHT have worked, IF the US Congress had the spine to call Bush to task after 90 days of his committing US troops to battle - but, of course, they did not because they had no intention of doing so.  They wanted to have it boths ways - so wonderfully summarized by Senator John F. Kerry:

"I voted for the war, before I voted against it."

That half-way stance that could blow either direction, depending upon how the POLITICS of the war were playing out. (rest assured - if the war in Iraq were going well - Kerry, Clinton, Edwards and the rest of them would be lining up to take credit for it.  But, that is one particular miracle that never had much chance of coming true).

The that vote marks those Congress People as political players that have no hesitation placing their own political careers ahead of issue of war and peace.  That vote marks them as untrustworthy.

And - if they are willing to "play politics" with war and committing our fellow citizens to fighting a war, what issue will force them to take a stand for an unpopular position?

The war vote was - and is- important because it speaks directly to the character of the candidates and that judgement is not based on their words (how they explain it, how they apologize for it, etc.) it is based on their ACTIONS.  Given the chance to stop a war BEFORE it began, they chose to wait around, hedging their political bets, until they could argue about how to end the war.

Those are not qualities of a good President.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


Off point (4.00 / 2)
You fail even to make the case that this will work for Obama politically. Speaking of which, I wonder if Obama will do what his supporters do: use his initial opposition to the war to argue for his electability, saying that someone who opposed it from the outset is best suited to against the GOP. I don't buy it, but I often see the argument.

[ Parent ]
The Validity of the War Vote (0.00 / 0)
as a campaign issue was the topic, no?

Any candidate - Barack Obama included - that did not contradict themselves, or abicate Consitutional duties on this issue could, reasonably, use that vote as a way to differentiate themselves from the others.

Personally, I don't think Obama can use it as effectively as someone that actually voted against the resolution, but that's a matter of degrees.

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
That Train Has Already Left The Station (0.00 / 0)
The only way Obama could make Iraq war issue work anymore is to be as dishonest as Richardson and say that if he becomes president all troops will leave Iraq.  I think he showed how inexperienced he is last night in the debate when he started talking about foreign affairs.  To me Obama proved that he is not ready to be president.  He has a long way to go. 

It does get a little ridiculous (0.00 / 0)
On the eve of Iowa, Richardson's gonna be promising to get them out in a week.

[ Parent ]
FOREIGN AFFAIRS (0.00 / 0)
Then you believe in the Bush policy of not talking to the Iran and Syrian leaders for a regional solution to Iraq.

[ Parent ]
We'll never know how Obama (0.00 / 0)
would have voted on that resolution.

But, yes, he should keep pushing that issue because it clearly under-cuts his main opponent's character and judgement. (Clinton, that is).

Yes, I think it is a very valid line of questioning to pursue the issue of why Clinton voted for the resolution without even reading the pertinent NIE.  In what universe it that not an example of poor judgement?


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


Obama's vote (0.00 / 0)
I believe if in the senate he would have voted against the AUF. MY REASONING IS THAT HIS MENTOR THE SENIOR SENATOR FROM iLLINOIS dICK dURBIN VOTED AGAINST THE RESOLUTION.

Most freshmen senators would vote with their collegue especially if they are in the same party and their political philosophy is very similar.


[ Parent ]
Agree that you need to show a pattern (0.00 / 0)
You need to show a pattern of wisdom on international relations before you can claim you're an expert.

There is a pacifist strain among some liberals in this country that is knee-jerk against any war -- Vietnam, Persian Gulf, Kosovo and Iraq.  Just because their opposition to the Iraq War turned out to be right, doesn't mean they will be right every time from now on.

That's what worries me about Obama's pre-war anti-war stance.  It's a lot easier to be anti-war when you represent a liberal part of Chicago, than if you were a US Senator. 

Though, that pre-war video conversation makes me feel a lot better  about him.


Smart (0.00 / 0)
Just Iraq? Vietnam wasn't a war we should have been in either.

Those who have had a chance for four years and could not produce peace should not be given another chance. --Richard Nixon, 9 October 1968

[ Parent ]
AGREED YOU NEED TO SHOW A PATTERN (0.00 / 0)
Twenty three Democratic senators voted against the AUF

[ Parent ]
Majority (0.00 / 0)
60% of the Democratic Representatives voted against the AUMF.

Those who have had a chance for four years and could not produce peace should not be given another chance. --Richard Nixon, 9 October 1968

[ Parent ]
I've seen Michelle Obama speak about this (0.00 / 0)
And she says "I told you so" isn't a good place for a candidate to be, which I totally agree with. And Chris is absolutely right that most people did believe Bush about the war and they don't like being reminded they were misled.

I think that as things get closer and people start paying more attention, Obama's war positioning could make a difference in certain states, like Iowa and California. But certainly how you tell voters about it makes a big difference in their response.

Politics is a strong and slow boring of hard boards.


Iraq and Barack (0.00 / 0)
I totally agree with your analysis.  I think Obama already has those voters who thought his initial opposition to the war was prescient.  His task now is to convince the rest of the Democratic electorate that his initial judgment, as well as his plan for Iraq is the most doable.  If he goes back to emphasizing his initial opposition to the war, then he really isn't participating in the current conversation on Iraq, which is,"What do we do now?".  If all he appears to be contributing(yes I know he has a plan) is the,"I told you so" argument, then I think he will fail to convert some of those American voters who were initially in favor of the war, but thinks it is time for an exit strategy.  I think in addition to emphasizing his initial opposition, he has to convince voters that his current plan for Iraq is best.  That's kind of hard, when his plan for withdrawal really doesn't appear much different than Hillary's.

Is Defunding Wise (0.00 / 0)
Many people want to point to Kerry-Feingold as a point where they can jump off Obama's initial analysis of why not to go to War and place him in the pro-War camp.  I don't understand this.  It's not like there were only two choices - Defunding & Pro-War.  Obama has always been for gradual withdrawal as the way to stop the War, in large part because this is an achievable strategy, far more so then stopping the War by de-funding.  Look at even the last de-funding bill when the scenario changed drastically by having the vetoed bill as the alternative.  It still got very little support.  The fact that the withdrawal bill was able to get to the President's desk shows that the Levin-Reed amendment was the better strategy than Kerry-Feingold, if your ultimate aim is to get the troops home before the next election.  It's not about principles.  It's about strategy to move opposition to the War through Congress.  There is a reason Feingold has praised Obama's work on this eventhough he didn't vote for the amendment. 

And I think it is important to look at a much less quoted portion of Obama's 2002 anti-War speech.  I cannot wrap my head around how people can now support John Edwards who at the time was connecting 9/11 and Iraq, and turn away from Obama who said the following:


What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other armchair, weekend warriors in this administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income - to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression. That's what I'm opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

http://www.barackoba...



War in Iraq will be main issue in General Election (0.00 / 0)
I suppose that some may doubt that statement, but it seems very likely that the situation on the ground will only be worse by the time we cast votes in November 2008.

By that time, the empty rhetoric of folks like Bill Richardson will be obvious for what it is - no matter how seriously he may feel about removing all troops as fast as humanly possible, the Congress will try to block him, and the Pentagon will insist on leaving some folks behind, covertly or otherwise.

Clearly, neither he, Kucinich, or Gravel have the charisma to sell that argument to the general electorate, seeing as they can't even get fellow Democrats to support them.

So, that leaves a bevy of Democratic nominees that offer one, or another, version of slow withdrawl and diplomatic initiatives.  Their plans are all incompletely discussed and detailed - which is understandable as no one can predict the future, and who really knows what hidden information might be revealed to the new President? - so the electorate has little hope of actually using their public statements about the war to differentiate them now.  But, come General Election Day - there will be no doubt where the Democrat stands relative to the Republican on this issue.

But, how to get those disgruntled Republicans and right-leaning swing voters to pull the lever (archaic term, eh?) for the Democrat?  Now, those folks may be considering the Democratic candidate on the basis of other issues - so the key is that the Democratic candidate not have such a stance on the war that they cause the swing voters to re-think their tentative support.

Which Democratic candidate can accomplish this?

I suggest that only those candidates that have a clearly established record of consistency, thoughtfulness, and judgement on this issue.

That means: Barack Obama (at this moment)

While I agree with Jenifer that "I told you so!" is not a winning strategy, I do not agree that former war-supporters will necessarily resent being reminded of their being misled.  Humans are more than happy to transfer blame to their leaders - especially when they feel marginalized by the political system - and that is the proper place for that blame.  The Democratic candidate that can manage to help those former war-supporters transfer their internalized guilt to the elected leaders will "win" the war vote.  Anyone who supported the war in the past will be at a disadvatage in this endeavor.



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


Diplomacy (4.00 / 1)
I sadly agree it is looking more and more like the War might still be raging by the time we vote and the question will become not just who had the best judgement beforehand, or who had the best record during the War, or even who has the best plan for withdrawal.  It will become who has the will to actually get out, who do we believe will actually put the plan in action once elected. Everyone agrees there is no military solution; there is only a diplomatic one.  And in the last debate we saw the difference what diplomacy means to the candidates.  By saying she would not meet face to face with Iran and Syria within her first year, Clinton made clear the pace she is committed to in this crucial Diplomatic Solution. I don't believe this is the type of bold leadership we need to bring any type of peace to the region which would allow us to pull our troops out.  The question was not how you would lay the groundwork for a face to face meeting, it was will you commit to having the meeting in the first year.  It addressed the importance you place on Diplomacy, the speed to which you will address it. 

Katherine van Heuvel writing on the Nation's website points out Clinton's approach is just a continuation of her husband's policy which was very much in keeping with Bush's:


...during his two terms President Clinton did not meet with Fidel Castro or with Hugo Chavez or with the leaders of Iran, Syria, and North Korea --while generally pursuing a policy of trying to isolate these countries. But what did the Clinton approach actually accomplish? The respective regimes of Castro in Cuba and Chavez in Venezuela have only grown stronger, and more influential in Latin America. Although Syria was forced to withdraw its military forces from Lebanon last year, the regime of Bashar Assad is as firmly entrenched in power as was his father's. And in spite of the odious politics and qualities of Ahmadinejad, Iran carries more weight in the Middle East than it did doing the early 1990s while American power and standing has declined considerably.

Indeed, both Clinton and Bush may have missed a historic opportunity to open a new chapter with Iran when reformer Mohamed Khatemi was elected in 1997. Had President Clinton taken the bold step Obama suggested and had met without precondition with President Khatemi in 1998 or '99 instead of pursuing sanctions, might not the democratic reformers be in power in Iran? Might we not have a healthy and growing trading relationship with an economically reformed Iran? Might Iran have capped its nuclear program and cooperated with us in managing regional relations including the peaceful downfall of Saddam Hussein? We do not know because the foreign policy sophisticates thought it was too politically risky for President Clinton to make such a bold move.

Above all, foreign policy is a matter of simultaneously projecting American confidence and American humility. In signaling that he was willing to meet with the leaders of these countries, Obama was signaling that the United States has the confidence in its values to meet with anyone. But he also signaled a certain humility that reflects the understanding that the next president must reach out to the rest of the world and not merely issue conditions from the White House and threaten military force if it does not get its way.



[ Parent ]
I agree and disagree (0.00 / 0)
Agreement: Hilary Clinton's response at the YouTube/CNN debate and subsequent pot-shots at Obama did not help her cause.  Her fear of being "used" as a propaganda object by those she would meet demonstrates her lack of faith in her (and her future administration's) ability to negotiate international politics effectively.  The question is not WHETHER the other world leaders would try to use the meeting as propaganda, but HOW EFFECTIVE they might be - and, importantly, how effective the US President might be at countering those attempts. 

One way the "rogue" nations could be very effective is to make it appear as though they "broke" the US adminstration's will not to meet with them.  Obama has already begun to shut down that avenue of approach to co-opting any eventual meeting with him (should he get elected), while Clinton has pushed that door wide open.

The US President has to get AHEAD of these issues - and LEAD the way, take control of the situation, rather than leaving the ball in their court - which is precisely what the Clinton approach does because it allows the other nations, by their actions, to determine when the talks will take place.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Sometimes there is only one decision that really counts... (0.00 / 0)
The decision to invade Iraq has come with some very real consequences: Probably more then half a million dead, certainly more then half a trillion spent and a long list of more intangible items also of great importance.

Being against the invasion of Iraq does demonstrate superior judgment simply because it was such a singly important decision in the first place, and people in power should not easily get a pass for having been on the wrong side of making such a disastrously bad call.  They should have known better.


Richardson Urged Patience & Diplomacy prior to Invasion (0.00 / 0)
Richardson showed sound judgment on Iraq prior to the invasion, criticizing the Bush Administration's rush to war and accurately predicting the damage to U.S. prestige worldwide if we invaded unilaterally.  See my diary at http://www.openleft....

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