Things That Can Make Me An Obama Activist

by: Chris Bowers

Thu Feb 07, 2008 at 08:30


Right now, I consider myself an Obama "supporter," which means that I will vote for him in Pennsylvania and cheer for him as the results come in. However, my support is not strong enough that I am willing to become an Obama activist. In terms of policy, Obama has the advantage in ending the causes of the Iraq war, but Clinton has the lead in health care and housing policy. While the Democratic establishment prefers Clinton, the Village prefers Obama. I even voted for Clinton in the MoveOn.org endorsement vote because I wanted to block any endorsement. On several occasions, including the vote to condemn MoveOn.org, I actually thought that Clinton is less likely to throw progressive allies under the bus than Obama. Maybe that just means that I should go attend a 70's-style, anti-military love-in, or something.

Still, overall I think Obama holds a progressive policy advantage, I love the greater activist excitement around Obama, and I simply identify with Obama more. Also, as I explain in the extended entry, the ongoing arguments over super delegates and Michigan / Florida could push me over the edge to actually becoming active for Obama:

Chris Bowers :: Things That Can Make Me An Obama Activist
Here is one example of what I am talking about:

This evening, I went through the superdelegates that have "endorsed" each candidate. According to CNN's latest count, 193 superdelegates have endorsed Hillary Clinton (D), while 106 superdelegates have backed Obama.

But a quick look at the breakdown of the superdelegates shows that 27 of Obama's 106 superdelegates come from states he's already lost (25%), a percentage that is twice as large as the 25 of Clinton's 193 superdelegates (13%) who come from states she has lost.

While Clinton has racked-up considerably more superdelegates than Obama, she's also doing a much better job of the winning the states they come from. Yet, it is Obama who has raised the concern about superdelegates who cross their state's popular vote winner.

Specifically, Obama stated that superdelegates "would have to think long and hard about how they approach the nomination when the people they claim to represent have said, 'Obama's our guy.'"

Seems a little hypocritical to me...

OK, now I am starting to get angry enough to actually throw in a donation to Obama. It isn't just this blog post, either, but rather the entire Clinton campaign argument about delegates that is pissing me off.

Obama and Clinton are virtually tied in terms of the popular vote right now, with Obama holding a slight lead outside of Florida and Michigan because of his performance in South Carolina. While all of the figures are not available, I'm actually pretty sure that if someone were to multiply final delegate percentages in all caucus states with raw caucus participation in those states, that Obama is ahead in terms of popular participation in the campaign even when Michigan and Florida are included. State delegate counts severely undercount popular participation in caucus states.

What irritates me is this: there is no way that Clinton's nearly a 2-1 lead in super delegates should be considered legitimate given how close the popular vote has been. For the Clinton campaign, respecting democracy is the thing to do when it favors the Clinton campaign, while respecting the rules of the DNC is the thing to if democracy doesn't produce the right outcome. On the one hand, the Clinton campaign is arguing they should be considered ahead because of super delegates, but on the other hand arguing that Michigan and Florida primary results should be respected because that is the democratic thing to do. You just can't have it both ways. There is no legitimate means of arguing that Clinton's lead among super delegates should be respected because those are the rules of the process, and that the Michigan and Florida primary results should be heeded because that is the democratic thing to do.

Some may argue that Obama is trying to have it both ways, by claiming that super delegates should respect the will of the voters and that Michigan and Florida should follow the rules. However, before the Michigan and Florida results were known, never once did the Clinton campaign publicly argue that the results of those contests should be respected. Now, they are saying that in about every forum they can possibly find. This does not in anyway compare to a vague statement from Obama that super delegates should vote their districts. Obama didn't name any names, and didn't even say that this would improve his super delegate position. However, the Clinton campaign has pushed super delegate totals and Michigan and Florida as hard as they possibly can.

Without question, the principle that should be respected is popular support. Not only is it the right thing to do, but if the eventual Democratic nominee does not have the most popular support, we will face a major crisis of legitimacy in our party. Right now, it is not entirely clear who has the most popular support, which is why the pledged delegate count is so close. For reasons I outlined yesterday, I do not think that will be the case when the primaries and caucuses have all completed. However, the bottom line is that the Clinton campaign has been far louder and more vociferous in their support for changing the standards of who should be a delegate to earn whatever result most favors them. Further, they are trying to deflect their hypocrisy in this matter by claiming that Obama is just as bad, even though his campaign simply has not been anywhere near as bad. Occasional, vague statements about Nevada and super delegates don't even approach talking about super delegates out of one side of your mouth, and Michigan and Florida out of the other side, in numerous press conferences over the past week. As I found out, the Clinton campaign has even done this in the same answer to numerous questions during those press conferences. There is just no equivalence here at all.

If no candidate ever emerges as the clear leader in terms of popular nomination contest participation, then I am fine with letting the rules take over at the convention, or with some sort of pre-convention deal that will probably necessitate both candidates being on the ticket. Until that time, however, popular nomination contest participation is the only metric that should be respected as a means of determining the state of the campaign. Otherwise, we contradict our own values as progressives and potentially face a crisis of legitimacy in the party. Right now, no clear leader has emerged, but it does appear that Obama has a slight edge (outside of Michigan and Florida). Those who argue otherwise are doing little more than making me angry enough to push me actively into Obama's camp.  


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Please Don't Chase Us Away (4.00 / 2)
I support Hillary. However, I am a Democrat and will vote for whoever the party nominates in August.
But we Hillary supporters are being pushed out of our old haunts. Blogs (like AMERICAblog) where we used to feel comfortable being liberal Dems now make us feel like traitors because we haven't drunk the Obama-ade. He may be the second coming of JFK, RFK, or MLK to some, but when orgs like MoveOn push for one progressive over another at this stage of the election, they only lose much of their support. MoveOn should have stayed neutral. They lost my membership, my financial support, and my respect.
Open Left still seems, unlike so many other progessive blogs, to still be open to all of us. Please keep it that way.

This site should be a welcoming place, but (4.00 / 7)
Chris, Matt et al shouldn't censor themselves or misrepresent themselves in order to make it so.  Chris is making a substantive argument in this post -- it would behoove Clinton supporters to respond to it directly, just as it was incumbent upon Obama supporters to respond substantively to critiques of Obama's position on health care, for instance.  

Sometimes, the right response for supporters of a campaign is to push back against the campaign that they are supporting -- writing a letter asking the campaign to cease and desist when it is doing something objectionable.  


[ Parent ]
No reprimands, thank you (0.00 / 0)
It's not about censorship; it's about shrewd and articulate site-masters using their space to justify their preferences.  To some of us that looks like propoganda masquerading as analysis.

A few days ago, a site-master explained that Senator Clinton's vote on the war would keep him from voting for her.  Fine.

The other day, a site-master explained that because Senator Clinton had accepted an invitation to a Fox News debate, that was it, over and out, she was the betrayer of betrayers and he would vote for Obama.  Fine.

Today we get a lengthy and tortured treatise on what constitutes (a) the popular will; (b) a legitimate super-delegate; and (c) virtue in politics.   You describe the argument as substantive, but it is substantive only if you accept the site-masters' definitions.  Skeptics of those definitions find the argument as airy as angel cake and nowhere near as tasty.

Unhappily for those of us not yet persuaded by Obama's lofty rhetoric, things here seem to be slipping inexorably, if subtly, into Kos and HuffPo territory--that unwelcoming country where all Clinton words and deeds stem from base political calculations and all Obama words and deeds stem from pure and noble aspirations.  Clinton the corrupt pol, Obama the visionary statesman.

It's fine for site-masters to support a candidate, and we all appreciate their frankness in doing so.  But after days of posts explaining why Clinton can never be their candidate, it's not fine to pretend their support is the product of careful scrutiny.  Not fine at all.

 


[ Parent ]
MoveOn (4.00 / 5)
Moveon chose their endorsement by a member vote, and a supermajority was required for them to endorse at all.  I can understand your wanting to cut back on the financial support while they are actively campaigning for Obama, and I maybe even understanding your dropping your membership.  But why drop your respect?  It's a member-driven organization, and the membership has voted overwhelmingly to support Obama.  

[ Parent ]
I'm a Clinton guy - don't chase us away Chris... (4.00 / 2)
I love your analysis, even though we're on opposite sides (for now only) but this is way over the top. You're assuming some kind of purity on the Obama side, and some form of universal perfidy on the Clinton side. Don't do this.

Do you think for a moment that Barack Obama isn't furiously calling super-delegates? C'mon.

And you undercut your own argument with this quote:

"...a quick look at the breakdown of the superdelegates shows that 27 of Obama's 106 superdelegates come from states he's already lost (25%), a percentage that is twice as large as the 25 of Clinton's 193 superdelegates (13%) who come from states she has lost."

So Obama is winning more superdelegates in districts where the voters prefer Clinton - but he's on the side of right and democracy? C'mon, man!


[ Parent ]
How does this make him a hypocrite? (0.00 / 0)
He is not going to reject an endorsement from someone, but at the same time he is asking people who support him to vote as their district votes.  This would cause him to lose superdelegates who have previously endorsed him.  

It seems like he feels, as many of us do, that the superdelegates should not decide the election.  And, he is willing to sacrafice some of his endorsed delegates for that point.

Long term it may benefit him if he ends up winning in more elections, but in the short run, as the quote states, it would hurt him.


[ Parent ]
re: Please Don't Chase Us Away (4.00 / 2)
Loving this blog. Loving Chris' analysis. I'm an Obama supporter, but have a hard time going to Kos because its so shrill over there. Can't go to MyDD because its Hillary central. I'm digging the sober play by play I'm seeing here.

That said, I'll agree with Chris' post that anything that stinks of a backdoor way of getting this nominee will create a crisis of legitimacy...and could even keep me home in November. (A party that disrespects the will of its members/base will suffer some severe punishment.)

But mostly just wanted to say I'm loving the blog and learning a ton about process, strategy and delegate.


[ Parent ]
These are Howard Dean's rules, Chris! (4.00 / 1)
C'mon - get real here. You're the guy who is always, ALWAYS saying don't change the rules in mid-stream (see Bowers: Florida & Michigan, 2008).

Now you're saying Howard Dean's rules are un-Democratic and create a crisis of legitimacy.

It doesn't wash. Next thing, you'll be doing that "I'll support McCain!" dance we see so often elsewhere on sites with less intelligence than this one.


[ Parent ]
Exactly. (0.00 / 0)
If we care about "respecting democracy," shouldn't Florida and Michigan have a say in our process?

[ Parent ]
As a FL voter: "No" (0.00 / 0)
The FL primary was a bastardized election. Let there be another election or caucus perhaps, but the first election was damaged goods.

For example, one factor I have heard not mentioned is whether Democratic voter turnout was suppressd because votes "did not count."  (In fairness, what did help boost turnout was a hotly contested home property tax issue also on the ballot.)

Other factors contributed to the absurdity of it being a valid election but I won't delve into them here.  I do emphatically concur with Chris' comments on the subject. It's simple: The candidates voluntarily agreed to not campaign here with a full understanding of the consequences; they should abide by those consequences.  


[ Parent ]
Fine (0.00 / 0)
and my point is that the candidates fully agreed to run this race understanding the role of superdelegates in the process.

Hillary shouldn't have her "legitimacy" called into question if she is the nominee just because she understood the nominating process better.  If selecting the nominee is just about the popular vote, fine - let's get rid of superdelegates, caucuses, and closed primaries. Open it up. Anyone can vote. And count Florida and Michigan, because those were elections - bastardized or not - certainly more people participated in both than in Iowa.  Hillary certainly got more votes cast for her in Florida than Barack did in South Carolina.

Point being the nominating contest is not just one big election. It is a process, with the rules laid out and agreed upon in advance.  

If it were my rules, I would have 50 state primaries (plus DC and territories) rotated by region over a four month period, all closed - no Republicans, no independents - and the national Democratic Party popular vote winner would be the nominee. Pretty simple. Too bad that's not the way it works.  If it were, Hillary would be the nominee, by the way.  


[ Parent ]
Whose back door (0.00 / 0)
Here's Bowers' post reduced to its essence:

I won't vote for Clinton; I will vote for Obama.

I fear Clinton will game the super-delegate system.  If she does, I'll do more than vote for Obama; I'll become an activist.

The rest of the post is Bowers' personal definition of what constitutes gaming the system, what you call a "backdoor" way.

And nowhere in this post does he raise the question, What will I do if Obama games the super-delegate system?  Why doesn't he raise that question?  Does he believe Obama is too pure to game the system?  Or does he have no comfortable answer to that question?  

If Obama games the system, will Bowers abstain (we know he won't vote for Clinton)?  Or will he give Obama a pass?  

Could that be the fear that's arousing so much hostility to his post--the suspicion that behind the "analysis," an Obama advocate is saying something we've heard before:

When the rules favor Obama (Nevada, Michigan, Florida), the rules are the rules.  When the rules might favor Clinton, let's change them.    


[ Parent ]
My own view is (4.00 / 2)
Any passionate Clinton supporter, who is also fair, is absolutely a member of the conversation.

For example, as an Obama supporter, I can admit freely, I don't like the way he has framed his health care approach.  I prefer Hilary on that.  

Nevertheless, despite that, I am for Obama, for other, more important reasons to me.

What seems to be happening on the nets is, a wholehearted embrace of ALL positions of a candidate that the particular partisan supports.

For example, Bowers has a good point about Clinton wanting it both ways.  Some Clinton supporters defend Clinton in this by saying "Obama does it too", or some other mode.

But an honest Clinton supporter (in my view) would say, "yes, I don't like the way she is doing this, but I still support her for other reasons (more administratively competent, more able to take on the Repug noise machine, etc).

On the nets though, we're getting a lot of dishonest postings from partisans.  

I hope we can avoid that here at Open Left.


[ Parent ]
Clintons never change, (4.00 / 2)
I too grow weary of the underhanded politics of the Clinton camp. This politics as usual has helped mold me into an Obama supporter. I am not saying the Obama folks are perfect but they are sure standing on top of the heap.  

Give me a break. (0.00 / 0)
This is where I get annoyed.  

Time magazine (or was it Newsweek?): "If you can't keep your own house in order, you can't keep the White House in order." - Michelle Obama.

The Obama camp has been playing just as hard and fast as any other campaign. Ask the Edwards people who played dirtiest in Iowa. Answer: Obama.  Same for Hillary in Nevada. Neither's perfect, but Obama is not what he claims to be. I'm so sick of this holier than thou bullshit.

This is a campaign.  Barack said he wanted to change politics in this country. He's playing by the same old rules, just with better rhetoric.  

Look up these names: David Axelrod, David Plouffe, Robert Gibbs, Bill Daley, Tom Daschle.  These are hardcore establishment old school campaigners.  Nothing against these guys, but nothing new to see here.

Gosh, that Kool Aid must taste pretty damn good.


[ Parent ]
Super Delegates (0.00 / 0)
The entire concept of "super" delegates just rubs me the wrong way to begin with.

Rules are rules (0.00 / 0)
If you don't like the rules, work to change the rules.

[ Parent ]
?? (0.00 / 0)
What makes you think I'm not?

[ Parent ]
Good for you. (0.00 / 0)
But nobody changed the rules before the process started, and now these are the rules.  See Florida, Michigan.

Better luck changing the rules for next cycle.  


[ Parent ]
I should think (4.00 / 2)
the Messianic rhetoric surrounding Obama would drive you away from him faster than any Clinton campaign argument about who has more delegates.  Deifying presidential candidates hasn't worked out so well for us....

Reasoned Excitement (4.00 / 1)

You're confusing the packaging with the contents.  There is excitement and passion about Obama because he is standing for transparency in government, participatory mechanisms to being people back into civic involvement (etc.).  These are huge and fundamental issues that could change the very foundation of the way Americans participate in government.

These ideas are exciting people, and the excitement is contagious.  So some are catching the excitement before learning about the ideas, but that doesn't make the ideas behind the fervor invalid.

Really, read these two things and then tell me that there isn't a basis for the excitement:

http://www.lessig.org/blog/200...

http://www.barackobama.com/iss...


[ Parent ]
Irrational exuberance (0.00 / 0)
You're confusing the packaging with the contents.

No, no, I'm quite sure I haven't.  

His campaign is self-reverential.  If you recall, a recent brochure described Obama as "Called to Christ," "Called to Bring Change" and "Called to Serve."  It also suggests that he was called to lead Americans as Moses was called by God to lead the Israelites into the Promised Land.

that's quite a Christianist dog whistle.  No wonder his fans think he's the Second Coming.  Unfortunately, the job of Savior has already been filled.

Really, read these two things and then tell me that there isn't a basis for the excitement

I have read them and no, they're not terribly exciting.

I leave you with James Wolcott (emphasis mine)

Perhaps it's my atheism at work but I found myself increasingly wary of and resistant to the salvational fervor of the Obama campaign, the idealistic zeal divorced from any particular policy or cause and chariot-driven by pure euphoria. I can picture President Hillary in the White House dealing with a recalcitrant Republican faction; I can't picture President Obama in the same role because his summons to history and call to hope seems to transcend legislative maneuvers and horse-trading; his charisma is on a more ethereal plane, and I don't look to politics for transcendence and self-certification.


[ Parent ]
hmmm (0.00 / 0)
I agree with everything you said...


Those who argue otherwise are doing little more than making me angry enough to push me actively into Obama's camp.

...except that. How do you justify it, considering this snark you made the other day:


Why wasn't this clear to me before? If an anonymous, low-level, Clinton or Obama supporter irritates you, then that must in some way reflect on all the supporters of that candidate, and indeed on the candidate her or himself. Truly, defining your opinion of an entire group by the actions of one member of that group is the enlightened, progressive view to take.



The truth about Saxby Chambliss

I'm talking staff (0.00 / 0)
The Clinton campaign staff is making this argument, in public. That is different than Clinton supporters making it. I tried to make it clear in the post that I wasn't just picking on another blogger--I'm irritated because the Clinton campaign itself is pushing that line.  

[ Parent ]
I should add (0.00 / 0)
That I was thinking about what I wrote last week while writing this, which is why I tried to make it clear that I was angry at the campaign, not the supporters. Otherwise, yes, I would be a hypocrite.  

[ Parent ]
Thanks (0.00 / 0)
Thanks for the clarification. It makes more sense now.

The truth about Saxby Chambliss

[ Parent ]
I Like Hillary but Support Obama (0.00 / 0)
I supported Edwards early on, but was never really comfortable with him -- he just wasn't ready for prime time. The haircut and blogger hires were symptomatic of his weak strategic vision.

While I like Hillary, I'm totally sick of Bill. The Bush Clinton Bush Clinton thing is bad for the country, but Bill Clinton is a snake oil salesmen who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the levers of power.

I'm also concerned about Obama, but not as much as Clintonism. Obama's main weakness is his lack of experience -- I chalk up his social security and progressive missteps to his being to enamored of the CW, not an animus to our cause.

The two holy grails for the Democratic Party are women and youth -- Hillary brings out the women, Obama brings out the young.

Two good candidates, each with their own flaws.  


I'm a proud Hillary supporter (0.00 / 0)
and also sick of Bill.  They're not one in the same. Yes she was deeply involved in his administration and deserves some credit/fault for achievements/mistakes in the areas in which she was involved.

I truly believe that she could be an exponentially better president than Bill.


[ Parent ]
Also annoying (0.00 / 0)
is how behind the times CNNs superdelegate count is.

In CT, they have Obama at 3, when he had 5 (2 DNC, 3 Congressional) a week before the primary and received a sixth (+1 DNC) the day after the primary.  


The Clintons and their gurus (0.00 / 0)
have just been at the spin game for so long and perfected it to such a degree that they can't help themselves.  And when it works for them, they are lauded as masters of the game by the Village.  What Obama has managed to do (even though he spins some too) is turn that around and convince a lot of people that playing the game that way is the problem.  I think this post is an example of how successful Obama's strategy has been and one reason he has been so successful to date.

Superdelegate Barabara Boxer (0.00 / 0)
She is a case in point. She has the backing of her backyard, Marin County and San Francisco, but she represents California as one of two of its Senators.  Senator Feinstein, her sister Senator from CA, endorsed Clinton long ago and has actively campaigned for her.  Prior to Super Tuesday, Barabara boxer did not endorse, but did say she would back whichever candidate "lead" California.

But Californians from her own backyard supported Obama, so should she turn her back on them and support Clinton?

Clinton's support ws determined by early voting in the state, those making up their minds early, before Obama was known, and from Los angeles area Latino voters.  Shouldn't the Senators split their vote?


I'm fine with Boxer supporting Clinton (4.00 / 3)
Boxer does not only represent the Bay Area. She represents the entire state of California. As such, her endorsement matches the will of her constituents. As it should.  

[ Parent ]
I think Boxer is included in some counts... (0.00 / 0)
...for clinton, based on her public declaration for the winner of CA.

[ Parent ]
so then every Senator should only look at the (0.00 / 0)
popular vote of the state they represent and vote accordingly?  Then why not just have that as an automatic delegate count, why bother giving the Senator any say in the matter?

[ Parent ]
Here's the superdelegate list (0.00 / 0)
http://demconwatch.blogspot.co...

Assuming this is accurate, I suppose one could take all of the Senators from each state and divy them up to the candidate who won the popular vote.  

I don't think that is what the 'superdelegate" was meant to do, but then I am not an insider to the goings on of the DNC.  It seems to me that taking inot account the nature of this historic campaign, would warrant some judgement.

I guess will have to wait and see how Senator Boxer sees her role in this.


[ Parent ]
that's the idea yes (0.00 / 0)
Or have them committed to voting for whoever wins the overall popular vote, or at minimum overall delegate count (since pop vote is not available for caucus states).

The point is that superdelegates are undemocratic and leaving them to their own devices to pick whom to support is bad.  This problem has escaped notice, much like the electoral college did until 2000 because usually it doesn't matter.  


[ Parent ]
Yep. (0.00 / 0)
That is how they should vote.

The only purpose to super delegates in the first place was to make sure they showed up at the convention. Mission accomplished. Now, ratify the will of your constiuents.  


[ Parent ]
Agreed... (0.00 / 0)
Representation should trump other concerns from the super delegates.

[ Parent ]
Which means Kennedy and Kerry can't count as super delegates (0.00 / 0)
MA went overwhelmingly to Clinton; this analogy just has to be said to the Obama people to see how ridiculous this whole thing is.

[ Parent ]
Would be really interested to hear... (0.00 / 0)
a superdelegate committed against the popular vote in their district/state defend against the argument for following the popular vote.

[ Parent ]
I think (0.00 / 0)
They can indicate their personal endorsement and preference one way, and yet pledge to vote as delegates for whomever their constituents select.

Alternatively they could base it on the national popular vote, rather than just their state/district (district will be hard for House reps, since I don't think results are broken down that way).

I'm comfortable with the former.  Clinton's superdelegates can support her, indicate their preference for her to win, but pledge to vote for Obama if he wins their state or the overall popular vote.


[ Parent ]
Clinton supporter here (0.00 / 0)
Fully comfortable with Kennedy and Kerry backing whomever they please. Its their prerogative as Democratic leaders in the Democratic Party's contest for the Democratic Presidential Nominee.  

Internal party matters should not be conflated with national election procedures. I never got why state governments had say in party primaries anyway.  If the party nominating process was about "respecting democracy" (i.e. the will of the general population) or whatever other loaded term you want to use, then we would not have a such thing as caucuses or closed primaries.    


[ Parent ]
In other words... (0.00 / 0)
We'll see your "Super-delegates are un-democratic" pitch and raise with "Caucuses are the dagger at democracy's throat."

[ Parent ]
Sure (0.00 / 0)
Listen -- I'm no Clinton hack. I see that she has flaws. I see her campaign has flaws (clearly or she would have won already).

I also have always been against open primaries, since I was old enough to understand what they were.  Democrats should choose the Democratic nominee, period.  This cycle, I've come to realize how disenfranchising caucuses can be, and not just because my candidate is behind in caucuses.

I've been involved in pushing legislation to make Election Day a national holiday, make early voting and vote by mail an option in every state, and eliminate unfair voter ID laws.  I believe that the participation levels in this country are disgusting, and I am thankful that the Obama campaign has helped raise those levels, particularly among youth. I have also been involved in youth voter engagement.  Please don't assume my anti-caucus position is because Hillary doesn't do well in caucuses.

All that said, I don't think that anyone but Democrats should have any say over internal party rules, and I respect those rules once they are enacted.

But yeah, I see your "superdelegates are undemocratic" and raise you "caucuses are the dagger at democracy's throat."


[ Parent ]
the WhyTuesday thing? (0.00 / 0)
Yeah I know those guys...

[ Parent ]
Hadn't heard of them actually (0.00 / 0)
Looks like an interesting group.  

[ Parent ]
FYI (0.00 / 0)
Boxer no longer lives in Marin.  She moved south.  

[ Parent ]
Summer of 2006 (0.00 / 0)
she moved out of Marin.  Has a condo in Oakland (not that far south) and a home in Rancho Mirage (way far south).

[ Parent ]
thanks, I believe she also lives in Riverside, near LA) which is where (0.00 / 0)
Clinton got a lot of support, so maybe that is why she will vote for Clinton as well, seeing that is her new backyard, as well as her committment to the popular vote, but really the whole thing is ludicrous, and as the poster above noted, Kerry and Kennedy would be abliged to vote for Clinton as well!

It does however, cast a shadow on Feinstein in the future, since she still has a home in SF, but I think she was pretty set from the start to supporting Clinton, and Boxer never seemed to be, IMHO.


[ Parent ]
Just a reminder (0.00 / 0)
Senators represent entire states. Where they live within that state is irrelevant. (Especially since most of them actually live in Washington, DC.)

Hillary Clinton won California.

What shadow is cast on Dianne Feinstein, exactly?

For the record, I could care less if superdelegates vote with or against the population that voted them into party or public office.

I look forward to January 2009 when the Obama supporters will continue their no superdelegates movement for 2012.  


[ Parent ]
Rancho Mirage is in Riverside County (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Obama vs. Clinton (0.00 / 0)
In my ramblings about the blogosphere, I've noticed that the Obamamites and the Clintonites divide roughly into two philosphical camps.  The Obama people tend not to focus on issues and specific policy positions so much.  They take the broad view that their guy is an extraordinarily gifted politician whose likes we may never see again, thus we ought to leap at the opportunity to employ his unique ability to drive voter turnout and win a smashing victory in November that has a lot of positive impact downticket in the bargain.

The Hillary supporters seem much more inclined to point to her particular positions on health care or the environment or foreign affairs.  They like her managerial skills and administrative competence.  They feel that she would do well in navigating the tricky relationship between the White House and Congress. They tend to believe that her husband is an asset, not a liability.

Obviously, these are broad generalizations, but that's the sense that I get after review of most all of the prominent lefty blogs.  It does tend to make me feel that putting them on the same ticket might have some merit, especially if that's what it takes to get us through the convention without tearing the Party into shreads.  Obama- the Prophet with broad and transformative vision. Hillary- the manager, the nuts-and-bolts mechanic who makes legislation happen.


[ Parent ]
Is There a Downticket Impact? (0.00 / 0)
I haven't seen a Clinton supporter make the case that Hillary has a more positive impact downticket, although I haven't looked very hard.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
IMO neither will accept a VP nomination (0.00 / 0)
Because the job isn't worth a bucket of warm spit. And both know it. Either could do much better as a leading Senator or (in Obama's case) state Governor.

[ Parent ]
Not unless your Fouth Branch, Dick Cheney ;-) n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
California is an interesting case. (0.00 / 0)

A friend who is from the Bay area was at my house last night and she had been speaking to many of her friends and family in CA, they had voted for Hillary weeks ago and have now changed their minds.

I know there isn't an argument here for changing votes or for whom superDs should support.  It's just an interesting trend, and one that I see reflected in NY also -

The fact is, CA and NY are completely irrelevant because as states they will go Democrat in a general election if we put up a PIG for president.

Yippieeeeee!


[ Parent ]
where can i donate to this extraordinary pig? (4.00 / 1)
I can see it now: "In a bold move to unite a deeply-divided party before the convention, Democratic party leaders have put their differences aside and chosen a pig as a compromise candidate."

The Republicans have gone this route since at least 1960, and they've done pretty well with it.


[ Parent ]
Strongly oppose "it's legal if my lawyers say it's legal" (0.00 / 0)
as has been promoted by the
Welcoming to all! (0.00 / 0)
I agree please continue to be as open as possible.

But oin the subject of Obama, it would be very very useful to end this soon. I URGE people to just move to Obama soon, no sooner than that.

Stop the possibility of a delegate crisis by making Obama inevitable. I could send you to places explaining how good the policies are, how similar to much of the progressive wing of the Democratic Party, how much excitement there is among people who haven't voted before, among the young about making a new Democratic generation, but you have heard it all.

It appears a lot are about to declare, want to declare, think you should declare are, excited about this wonderful election year and the signal to the world this sends. Who is America? We are, all of us.

So, the only question is when will your declaration of support be announced. Please consider doing it soon. Very soon. The sooner it becomes obvious that Barack is the choice, becomes our choice, becomes the face of the democratic party, the better for the Party, the better for the country.

Please come forward, for all the best reasons.

If this site wasn't welcoming to all, where would undecideds get moved?

Save the world -endorse Obama.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


"Save the Democratic Party - Endorse Obama Today!" ? (0.00 / 0)
This is a good point.

Now that McCain is the nominee - I think we should suggest to all Democrats that it is time to back a single candidate and move forward.

Every day of in-fighting is one more day that the Republicans have to stand behind their candidate.

On the other hand, if we keep them guessing - they won't know if they'll be running against someone who voted for the war or voted against it.

Since Clinton is so good with the details of legislation and of policy work, why not make her the Secretary of Health and Human Services?  She seems perfect for the job in every way - Health Care is all she talks about, she calls it her "life's work" and she could be THE spokesperson for the health care plan in an Obama administration.

Would any Clinton supporters support this?



[ Parent ]
Save the Democratic Party today - make Obama accept the Dean Deal (0.00 / 0)
that's where this is likeley headed...

[ Parent ]
Nope (0.00 / 0)
She couldn't be the spokesperson for the health care plan in an Obama administration because Obama's health care plan is so damn weak.

Universal insurance coverage is not possible without mandates.  Hillary can deliver universal health care. Obama can't, if he sticks with his current plan.  Ask Paul Krugman.

Either way, if Hillary loses this thing, I hope she'll take out Harry Reid come January.


[ Parent ]
Don't forget the Nevada caucus lawsuit (4.00 / 2)
and the Clinton campaign not so quiet support of closing off the at-large caucus sites.

I'm tired of an administration willing to win at any cost.

What has John McCain done for veterans?


Curious why (0.00 / 0)
you feel that Obama "holds a progressive policy advantage"
in light of the raft of facts regarding his center right positions?

E.g., Progressive Punch's ratings, his IL "present" votes on the right to choose, his Exelon cave, repetition of right-wing memes on Social Security, switch on health care from single-payer to the industry  friendly excluding of mandates,  support of Lieberman after the Lamont win, that he's raised just about as much money from financial interests as HRC, etc.etc.

Is it his position on the war that trumps these in your opinion (despite his lack of leadership in the Senate which gives strong credence to the idea that he would have voted exactly as HRC did)?


Geez (0.00 / 0)
How on earth does that comment your blocked off piss you off?  The post below this one is about a Maine superdelegate saying he will obey the will of the voters in his state.  Does that piss you off?  Or is it just the fact that a greater rate of Obama superdelegates seem to be thwarting the will of their state's electorate than Hillary superdelegates are.

You're pushing this "national popular vote" thing as if we're ever going to really get a consensus as to what the national popular vote is.  People will disagree in good faith.  Further, we've been told repeatedly that this is NOT a national election - it is 50 or 56 or 435 or 485 or so individual elections.  Superdelegates are going to end up making their own mind and then figure out a way to justify their vote and say that they are just expressing the will of the people.


I disagree with your premise. (0.00 / 0)
I don't believe that superdelegates are undemocratic.  These are people who have been elected by their constituencies and local party organizations to have exactly this kind of say in party matters.  Some of these superdelegates, especially from smaller red states, are just regular activists like you and me. In other states, they are the county party chairs, the state chairs, legislative leaders, etc.  

Regardless of any of that, the nomination of the Democratic Party's presidential candidate is not up to, and should not be up to, the country at large.  I am adamantly against open primaries (although a good compromise is allowing unaffiliated voters to declare a party for the first time on election day if they have previously never voted in a primary).  I am also against caucuses, which I believe are just as undemocratic as some of the processes which elect superdelegates (county committees, etc.).  At least many of the superdelegates have been popularly elected in elections.  Caucuses disenfranchise voters, plain and simple.  Elections aren't perfect either, but we should be doing more to open up the voting window, not narrow it.

Simply put, I believe that Democrats (including newly affiliated Democrats who were formerly independents) should choose who the Democratic nominee is.  If you want to vote in a party primary, you should join that party.  If there were no "open" primaries or undemocratic caucuses, Hillary would have a much wider lead right now.  And yes, I believe that Democratic elected officials should have a weighted say in who the nominee is -- but I can reasonable see both sides of that argument.

The larger point here is that this is about party rules and party processes and party participation, not national popular vote of people who could care less about the Democratic (big D) brand.  To say this is about "respecting democracy" seems wrong, inflammatory, and counterproductive.

Disclosure: I'm proudly supporting Hillary Clinton for President.  That doesn't mean this is campaign spin.  


Obama - Superhero (0.00 / 0)
"Obama has the advantage in ending the causes of the Iraq war..."

What is he, Superman? Can he go back in time?

We know he can walk on water...but wow!


it's a reference (0.00 / 0)

to ending the 'mindset that got us into the war'

and it's a good argument.


[ Parent ]
I don't buy it. (0.00 / 0)
The "mindset" was a personal vendetta by Bush and his cronies left over from Poppy Bush.

The mindset that led the congress and the media to fall in line is one with which Obama identifies. He's still going on about Iran.

When the wind is blowing in the direction of hysteria, Obama jumps right in to show how tough he is.

But people who want to get with Obama want to get with Obama.


[ Parent ]
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