Delegate Arguments Are Based On Values, Not Rules

by: Chris Bowers

Mon Feb 11, 2008 at 15:01


In the ongoing arguments over super delegates and Michigan / Florida, it is important that we all realize that these arguments are over values and morals, not rules. This is because the arguments from supporters of both Obama and Clinton concerning super delegates and Michigan / Florida are not against the rules.
  • Super Delegates. There is nothing in the DNC rules and bylaws that indicate how super delegates should vote. If super delegates wanted to form a block where they decided, en masse, to support the popular vote winner, that would not be against the rules. Conversely, if super delegates decided, en masse, to reject the popular vote winner and side with a different candidate, that would also not be against the rules. Both of these scenarios, and everything in between, are not against the rules of the nomination contest as set down by the DNC in 2007.

  • Florida / Michigan. While the DNC voted to strip Florida and Michigan of their pledged delegates back in 2007, that was never the final say in the process. Rather, all along the final say in the process would go to the DNC Credentials Committee, which will assume authority over the matter in mid-June. This entire time, the process has been as follows:

    1. The DNC has ruled that Michigan and Florida have no pledged delegates. That ruling still stands.
    2. Michigan and Florida state parties held primaries anyway.
    3. Michigan and Florida state parties are creating delegations based on the results of those primaries.
    4. Those delegations will be accepted or rejected, entirely or partially, by the DNC credentials committee from June through August.

    Those are, and always were, the actual rules. If the DNC credentials committee accepts the delegations sent by the state parties, then the rules will have been followed. If the DNC credentials committee rejects the delegations, then the rules will have been followed. If the DNC credentials committee partially accepts and partially rejects the delegations, then the rules will have been followed. In other words, the positions from both campaigns, that Michigan and Florida delegations should be seated as they currently stand, and that the Michigan and Florida delegations should not be seated as they currently stand, both fall within the rules as set down before the start of the process.

Neither campaign's position on either of these issues is in violation of the rules as they were set down before the convention. This is an important point that I think is being missed during all of these arguments. Neither the Clinton nor the Obama campaigns are suggesting courses of action that violate the rules.

The arguments over delegates are not about rules. The arguments are, instead, about values. Specifically, they are over these values:

  • Super delegates: On one side, there are those who argue that super delegates should respect the will of primary voters and caucus goers above all else. As such, super delegates should ratify the popular choice of the voters--perhaps best measured as the pledged delegate leader--at the convention. On the other side, there are those who think it is perfectly acceptable for super delegates to act as free agents, and they should not feel obligated to take the will of primary voters and caucus goers into account when decideding who to vote for at the convention.

    I strongly fall into the former camp. Democratic leaders have made it clear on numerous occasions that they don't care what the Democratic and progressive rank and file think about any number of things. If they also demonstrate that they don't care about our votes, then I am outta here. I refuse to be a member of a party where its leaders don't even care about how its members vote. Respect your sisters and your brothers, or stop claiming to represent them.

  • Florida / Michigan. Unlike the super delegate issue, this is not a clear binary. Rather there are two binaries that combine in different ways, and even have internal subdivisions. The first binary pits those who consider the Michigan and Florida primaries to be democratic processes that must be respected, versus those who think that Florida and Michigan primaries were not democratic processes and thus should not be respected. There are also those who think that Florida was democratic, but Michigan was not. Personally, I fall into that camp. Michigan and Florida voters were exposed to more than a year of national campaigning, and were hardly making an uninformed choice just because no one campaigned explicitly in either state via paid media, direct mail, field operations, or rallies. However, because all names were not on the Michigan ballot, the situation in Michigan is different than in Florida.

    The second binary is between those who think that Michigan and Florida should have a say in who determines the Democratic presidential nominee in 2008, and those who think that Michigan and Florida forfeited those rights by changing their primary dates. In this case, I fall into the former camp. First, the Democratic nominee should be the choice of Democratic primary and caucus participants no matter where those voters and caucus goers live. Second, if Michigan and Florida are not allowed a say, then their voters are punished for the actions of their state legislatures. Third, both Iowa and New Hampshire also moved their dates in violation of DNC rules, so I would consider that selective enforcement. For all of these reasons, the higher moral ground rests with giving Michigan and Florida a say.

    In short, I think the results of the Florida primary should stand. In Michigan, I do not know what the best alternative would be, but I do have ideas. A revote via a caucus is not very democratic, but neither is a vote when the names of several major candidates were not on the ballot. One alternative would be to allocate between 42 and 55 of Michigan's 55 uncommitted delegates to Barack Obama since, according to exit polls, he had more than three times the support of Edwards in Michigan. I would be in favor of that alternative, or of a revote via a caucus. While neither is a perfect solution, both are superior to giving Hillary Clinton a 73-0 advantage in delegates from Michigan at the convention, which would be an absurd and offensive interpretation of the will of Michigan voters.

This is not an argument over rules, but over values. Party leaders, also known as super delegates, should respect the wishes of party voters and caucus goers and ratify the pledged delegate leader as the nominee. Further, as part of America, Michigan and Florida voters should have a say in how our nominee is determined. Voters in those states should also not be selectively punished for the actions of their state legislatures. This means that the credentials committee should accept the delegation as sent by the Florida Democratic Party. It also means that the credentials committee should ratify a delegation from Michigan that accepts the will of voters in that state. Specifically, either a delegation of 73 Clinton nad 55 Obama, or a new delegation, determined by new caucuses, would accomplish that goal.

This isn't about rules. All of the arguments we have seen fall within the rules. This is instead about the values we want our party to uphold. The will of the voters should be observed. Everyone should get an equal say. The best available means in 2008 to make the latter two principles happen should be respected. That is where I stand, and those are the values I want my party to uphold. I urge all Democratic primary voters and caucus participants to uphold these values as well.

And let me add one final point: if your "values" in these delegate arguments are simply to get your favorite candidate elected, or simply to nominate the candidate you think is most electable, then you suck.  

Chris Bowers :: Delegate Arguments Are Based On Values, Not Rules

Tags: , , , , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
The MI problem (4.00 / 1)
"There are also those who think that Florida was democratic, but Michigan was not."

I understand the ethical problems that would arise when seating the delegates of a primary where one candidate wasn't on the ballot. But it should be noted it was Obama's decision to withdraw, out of his own strateguc reasons, nobody did force him to do so. This makes it even more difficult to solve the Michigan problem.

Personally, I think a repitition of those primaries would be the best solution. Is anything on the way to make this happen?  


Remedy is revote, not revolt (0.00 / 0)
"Personally, I think a repetition of those primaries would be the best solution."

Here, here! The original bad actors were the state parties and their leaders. They can also provide the remedy for their bad actions: repeat the primaries. The compromise position would be for the DNC to fund the cost of the revote, if that makes it any easier.
If MI and Fl party leaders just sit there and refuse to hold new primaries, well, it's like they're holding their voters hostage and forcing an ugly situation on the national party.
I don't feel like you can allow the responsibility for this to be forced up to the national.


[ Parent ]
Obama's choice (0.00 / 0)
Why should that matter.  It presents it as the interested parties being Obama and Clinton, and voters/citizens are the background.  This is the voters being punished for a decision they had no say in (Obama and Edwards name off the ballot) just like being punished for the decision made by the state party.

How can one argue that it is unfair to punish the voters for the decisions of the state party and then turn around and say well the delegation should all for Clinton (even though many voters chose not to vote for her) becaue Obama decided to take his name of the ballot.  Doesn't that punish voters who didn't vote for her?

I do think its a messed up situation, and having a horse in the race, I tend to doubt my objectivity in the situation.  But something I have been annoyed about for awhile is the over emphasis on the candidates(I think 2000 was when I first noticed it) .  It really places the voters, who will be affected by the policy, as just slighter higher than spectators at a sporting event.


[ Parent ]
Now this is a good post! (4.00 / 3)
Clear, factual and to the point.

Plus I learned a lot.

Thanks for this Chris.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


Agreed (0.00 / 0)
Very clearly written and argued.  Personally I came into it more inclined to allow Super's some leeway, but Chris has made me rethink that.

[ Parent ]
One More Value (0.00 / 0)
Absolutely fantastic post!

I'd just add one other value in terms of superdelegates. I want to see whoever the nominee is do it without too much damage from this. So while I come down on the follow the popular vote side in principle, I that they should do otherwise if that is the only way to avoid a floor fight (I'm not sure if this scenario is possible, but it sort of seems like anything is possible this year)


But don't just give it to the one (0.00 / 0)
Who threatens to throw the biggest tantrum.

I think we'll know more in mid March.  I doubt it comes to this.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
Another value: voter expectations (4.00 / 10)
This plays into your democratic/non-democratic binary, but one of the reasons that MI and FL were seriously flawed is that in addition to not campaigning, many voters could have -- perhaps correctly -- believed that there was no point in voting since the DNC had stated that the states would not have delegates.

On this theory, the two states were not democratic, even if everyone was on the ballot:  a basic precondition of a fair vote, i.e., the wide expectation that it would be followed, was missing.

This has nothing to do with whether you "think that Michigan and Florida should have a say in who determines the Democratic presidential nominee in 2008, [or] that Michigan and Florida forfeited those rights by changing their primary dates."  It is about whether, even if you think they SHOULD have a say, there has been an expression of what their Democratic party members have in fact said.

In that sense, the second one is something of a false binary that only piggybacks on whether you think the process was democratic.


Precisely (0.00 / 0)
Chris, you can't convince me the votes in FL and MI were expressions of democracy until you can refute Spectatus's point here.

Again, Gray' got it right. Just give us a revote.


[ Parent ]
They weren't democratic... (0.00 / 0)
But I can probably reluctantly accept Florida - Michigan is indeed a much tougher sell.

From a practical standpoint, I know that it's simply a huge mess and that the only fair approach is likely impossible in practicality - rerunning the two primaries.

Complicating matters, I am most certainly an Obama partisan, and I can't deny that that is going to affect my read on the situation.

In reality, I think I'd be willing to accept Florida and a Michigan delegation that sent all currently unpledged delegates for Obama - IF I knew that the superdelegates would fall in line behind the resulting pledged delegate count.  I'd be a lot happier with new caucuses or primaries, though.

The one thing that can't happen is for the MI delegation to be seated as-is (73-0 or whichever it is...)  That would be just as destructive to the Democratic Party as allowing superdelegates to decide the contest.


[ Parent ]
Voter expectations (0.00 / 0)
While this may be what some expected, others may have expected their votes to count.

Either way, I detailed the actual process in this post. Based on that process, it would have been prudent for all voters in those states to assume that their votes would count. Ignorance of the rules does not absolve someone from having to follow them.

Of course, I am aware of more abstract arguments about the nature of democracy, and whether disinformation campaigns are compatible with democracy. However, the idea that their votes won't count was only one of the disinformation, or partial information, campaigns taking place at the time. To single out that disinformation campaign does not seem right to me.

In other words, I do not accept the voter expectations argument in this case.  


[ Parent ]
But... (0.00 / 0)
what about the MI voters who voted for Romney in the primary, knowing that there would be a huge dispute over their votes, and  that all of the candidates weren't on the ballot anyway?  That is a completely rational decision based on the structural options offered to them, and certainly distorts the MI outcome.  

Perhaps you could say that gaming  the rules doesn't absolve you from the fact that the rules exist, but it still seems somewhat unfair.  But then again, everything about MI seems unfair.


[ Parent ]
Best post I've seen on this issue anywhere to date (4.00 / 1)
Really, really good post - I'll be spreading the link to this post far and wide.

Good to know I'm getting my money's worth for what I'm "paying" you.  You get to keep your job for another month!

:)


I agree, very good post (4.00 / 1)
And the bias happens to match mine.

I think FL/MI should get their pledged delegates seated.  With some fraction of the MI uncommitted given to Obama.  My choice would be 100% but my candidate bias may be playing there.  It should be at least 50%.

As for FL/MI super-delegates.  No way.  Don't even let them attend.  The insiders in FL/MI are essentially represented by the super-delegates, and those insiders caused the mess.

The voters deserve delegates regardless of the stupid actions done by their "representatives".  The party elite doesn't.


[ Parent ]
Isn't it undemocratic (0.00 / 0)
and unfair to the supporters of Obama in all the other states, to change the rules and seat delegates from a state where Obama did not campaign because he was following the agreed upon rules?

We just don't know how well Obama could have or would have done in those primaries. No one campaigned. There were zero delegates at stake.

That should be pretty obvious but people don't point out.

You disenfranchise and devalue the hard work of all the voters and volunteers in the states that played by the rules and where both candidates did campaign when you change the rules midstream and do seat delegates from FL and MI after telling everyone that those primaries would yield zero delegates.

It's pretty simple, but few say it.

We have rules for a reason. We respect rules because they express values.

What about all those voters and caucus goers in the other states?

You expect Obama supporters to roll over? What message would that send to the nation?



[ Parent ]
No I don't expect them to roll over (4.00 / 2)
I am an Obama supporter.  And I think the best case solution for Obama is to get enough pledged delegates that he can seat FL/MI and still lead in pledged delegates.

If that happens, he should have an uncontested position of legitimacy.  Hopefully the supers fall in line.

If he takes the nomination and FL/MI delegates are not seated, I fear for November.  There will be Hillary supporters in those key states that feel she lost the nomination because they threw away the votes in that state.

I'm not arguing rules or values.  I'm praying for a best case scenario where Obama takes the nomination without having a single "people's delegate" barred from the convention.

Hope, that's all.  Just hope.


[ Parent ]
And work like hell (0.00 / 0)
Early voting in Ohio and Texas is a big deal.

Let's hit the phones.


[ Parent ]
I agree with you (0.00 / 0)
I am hoping Obama gets enough, so that he can gracefully get a solution like the above.

You are still correct, in that, especially Michigan, is unfair.

I believe the primary value here that Chris is trying to craft a solution from, is honoring votes.  And looking for solutions that do that, without unnecessarily penalizing Obama (thus the uncommitted to Obama in Michigan).


[ Parent ]
right on sd's (0.00 / 0)
they screwed it up and they should not be allowed a vote.

[ Parent ]
All superdelegates vs. some superdelegates (0.00 / 0)
In WA, where I live, both of our Senators are pledged for Clinton despite a blowout 2-1 Obama victory.

I agree that that will of the voters should be ratified by superdelegates and not overturned.  But what exactly does that mean?

Option 1: Voters choose Obama on a national level.  All superdelegates then vote Obama, across the nation.

Option 2: My two Senators, as well as every superdelegate from my state, vote Obama in a reflection of the will of their consitutuents.

Option 3: Superdelegates somehow choose to parse themselves out proportionally to the popular vote.  This seems unlikely.

what do you all think is the most appropriate / realistic choice?  I'm leaning toward #2 right now.


I lean #1 (0.00 / 0)
Popular vote nationwide should be respected above all else.

However, #2 and #3 come close to achieving the outcomes and values we must uphold. I do not have huge problems with those plans.


[ Parent ]
I think #2 is more realistic (0.00 / 0)
It seems unlikely that, say, Charles Schumer would flip to Obama or Durbin to Clinton.  Or that elected officials would give a rat's ass about voters in other states.

[ Parent ]
Shouldn't... (0.00 / 0)
congressmen vote with their district, rather than the state as a whole?  For instance, Clinton won California as a whole, but Obama won (I'm assuming from his solid win in San Francisco County) Pelosi's district.  Who should Pelosi vote for?

My basic position is that the superdelegates who have not endorsed yet should agree among themselves to vote for whoever ends up with the national lead.  I wouldn't think it particularly wrong if they were to endorse whoever won their state/district, but I wouldn't expect superdelegates who've already endorsed to change on that basis.

Personally, I tend to think that this is what most of them are doing (although stories about 21 year old superdelegates don't inspire much confidence).

I'm going to also say that while it strikes me as perfectly appropriate for elected officials like governors, senators, and congressmen, and for elder party statesmen, like Carter, Bill Clinton, Mondale, George Mitchell, and the like, to be delegates, the fact that hundreds of virtually anonymous members of the Democratic National Committee get to be superdelegates is outrageous.  This was supposed to be abolished, or at least greatly reduced, after 1988, when Jesse Jackson insisted on it, but after it was agreed to the DNC went back on the deal and voted to reinstate themselves.  This is ridiculous and absurd.  The DNC leadership and the state party chairs should be the only DNC superdelegates.  The rest of them can fight to be elected as delegates in the pledged PLEO category or as normal pledged delegates like everybody else.


[ Parent ]
Another brialliant post. (4.00 / 1)
That I feel a little lectured too is all to the better. I also learned a lot from this, and not just PoV.

Thanks Chris. A great start to resolution.






Tsunami is the solution.


Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


Great Post (4.00 / 1)
I'd either support a revote, or, allocating MI and FL delegates in proportion to the national delegate count - thus, allowing them to be seated.

I do think it is extremely unfair to

A. Count Michigan with the uncommitted for Obama.  It is extremely difficult to get voters to make a confusing choice and still Clinton only received 56% of the vote.  There is a large amount of evidence that Obama would have likely won MI.

B. Likewise, to not allow Obama to campaign in Florida, to not allow his vastly superior GOTV effort to run is undemocratic.

If Florida and Mi are sat, and that results in a Clinton win...that is she would not have won without their seating and  superdelegates.  I will supporter, and fully expect, a walkout especially of African American delegates from across the country.


I strongly disagree (4.00 / 2)
I think you are arguing from a pro-Obama point of view, and it is not based on sound data. I do NOT think there is any particular evidence for your contention that Obama would "likely have won MI" had his name been on the ballot. In fact, the exit polls asked that precise question, and Clinton won by high single digits. It was a primary in a northern state with loads of blue collar workers. That's really Clinton territory, and there's a very good reason Obama decided to organize that candidate boycott, as there was a good reason for Clinton not to go along. Similarly, Florida has all the demographics and characteristics of a Clinton state: Big population, lots of Latino voters, lots of sun refugees from NY and the northeast.

Nonetheless, I think it's pretty obvious that, unless Obama now starts winning everything (including most importantly Ohio, Wisconsin, and Texas) thus rendering MI and FL moot, we're going to have to do them over. "Buy in" for our eventual nominee probably demands it. So the big big BIG question then becomes: caucus or primary? That decision could decide who wins.

I don't think superdelegates are an issue at all. Enough are unpledged to all go en masse for the eventual pledged delegate winner. That's what will happen.  


[ Parent ]
What was bizarre (0.00 / 0)
was Edwards pulling out of MI.  Failing Iowa, that was his best chance for an early win.

[ Parent ]
Caucus or Primary would not decide who wins (0.00 / 0)
If Obama continues to gain control of the race, it is at least as likely that he will win or at least virtually tie in the delegate count.  And since Hillary is unlikely to amass strong victories in the upcoming big states, they are unlikely to make the difference in his big wins in february.  FL and MI will at least be just as tight.  That's the problem.  Either way, caucus or primary, is a win for Obama, since he will be better positioned in these states than he was in January.  The only good outcome for Clinton is to have the current delegates seated at the convention.

The Politics of Bruno S.


[ Parent ]
I'll admit it is Pro-Obama (0.00 / 0)
but Obama is the win getting the shaft for obeying the rules if the do stand... It is not really debatable that he would have at least done marginally better had he been allowed to campaign.

I also do not think Superdelegates can go against the will of the people.


[ Parent ]
I don't agree (4.00 / 1)
A. There is no evidence that Obama would have won Michigan if he were on the ballot. The exit poll indicated it would have been 45% Clinton, 37% Obama.

B. Allowing a superior field operation a chance to work is not a pre-requiste for a democratic vote. It just isn't.  


[ Parent ]
Having Talked to a friend (4.00 / 3)
in Mi. who was canvassing for Obama until the delegates were stripped, she states that they were still having huge name-id problems.  Especially in the AA community.

I think allowing a candidate to reach out to his/her voters directly is a pre-rec for an election.  After all, we hold other nations to that standard when establishing democracy, or working for fair elections.  


[ Parent ]
Precisely (0.00 / 0)
I think Chris's talk about exit polls is fundamentally in contrast to the values he is advocating for in this piece. It's glaring.

It is not a fair election if a candidate does not have a chance to campaign.

Exit polls are not elections, Chris.

Many people did not participate in both MI and FL because Obama was not on the ballot. We simply can't and don't know.

The lack of campaigning is a crucial issue.


[ Parent ]
Ouch (0.00 / 0)
Chris,

Exit polls aren't votes.

It's not about 'campainging' so much ... but when you tell people an election won't count, many of them won't bother to vote. Changing this after the fact is antidemocratic.


[ Parent ]
A Complication (0.00 / 0)
Barbara Boxer announced in advance that she would vote to support whoever won the California primary, because she owed her superdelegate status to the voters of the state, and felt that she should abide by their decision.

But, what if Obama gets more pledged delegates? Boxer is supporting the will of the voters, just not the will of the voters outside her constituency.

I think this is morally principled decision on her part, but it clearly muddies the waters.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


If they announce that that's what they're doing beforehand (0.00 / 0)
it's not much of a problem, I think--they're respecting a democratic principle.

If they do it after the primaries are over, then they're just weaseling an argument to support who they were going to anyway.


[ Parent ]
I would prefer (0.00 / 0)
If everyone just voted along with the national popular vote winner. However, we don't know who that is yet, so I have no problem with what Boxer is doing.

I will also have no problem with what Boxer is doing at the convention, as long as it doesn't flip the outcome. There is nothing wrong with voting your constituents, unless it flips the election, ala the Electoral College in 2000.  


[ Parent ]
Amen (0.00 / 0)
The Delegates should not trump the people...Boxer's deal is also fine.  For now all Superdelegates should not sign on to vote for a candidate.  Frankly, it would be stupid of any of them to.  Endorsements can be different than being a delegate of the party.

[ Parent ]
Good post... (0.00 / 0)
I think this is a good distinction to make when laying out the particular dynamics of the two situations, but where the rubber hits the road, in the voters' minds, its the value issues that will reign supreme should disaster occur and one or both of these issues turns the nomination. If all the rules are followed, but a lot of voters feel the results are unfair the party will potentially pay the cost in the general election.

I imagine if the seating of the MI and FL delegations turns the outcome in favor of Clinton, it would have less impact on the overall tenor of the electorate than if the superdelegates are the ones to sway the nomination.  The media will spin a superdelegate crowning as a sort of coup, while the arguments over the seating of the corrupted FL and MI delegations is easy to ignore in the intricacies of why they shouldn't count.

I have to admit I find the seating of the MI and FL delegations as the bigger slap in the face of my values (I think TValley expresses my issues with those primaries quite nicely).  The superdelegates, by rule, can do what they want and while it would be a shame if they did so, that was the point of their existence.


Superdelegates (4.00 / 1)
This issue isn't binary.

Should superdelegates reflect the popular will?  If so, how?  Should they vote for the candidate the majority of voters in their state chose?  Their CD if they are a congressperson?  If either of these, they become "winner take all", in effect.

Or should they support the overall popular vote getter, or the one with the most pledged delegates in order to have a decisive win for the eventual nominee?  Especially if their state didn't have a primary or caucus?

I think the latter is ok, and probably closer to what the superdelegates were designed to do.  But really, given the realities, any of these are justifiable.  This is why I think it is much too early (still) to be issuing ultimatums and burning bridges.  None of us know what the state of play will be in June or July or August.  Look at 1968.  Lots can happen, so be flexible and nimble and stay principled, but there's no need to be dogmatic now.  

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


Right, exactly (0.00 / 0)
See my comment above.  Right now I'm leaning toward a state-by-state winner-take-all pledge for superdelegates.  That seems to most closely adhere to the way that our nation is set up, generally.

[ Parent ]
National popular vote (0.00 / 0)
As I wrote in response to Paul above, I believe they should all reflect the national popular vote. If they only vote based on their constituents, then we could run into an Electoral College problem where the popular vote winner does not become the nominee.

However, since we don't know who the popular vote winner is, right now I have no problem with what Boxer is doing. Further, I have no problem with what Boxer is doing as long as it doesn't flip the nomination to the person who won fewer votes nationwide. Still further, it is possible that there will be no clear popular vote winner, in which case I think all super delegates should do what Boxer does.  


[ Parent ]
Right. We don't know yet. (0.00 / 0)
I'm still optimistic that there will be a person with the most pledged delegates and votes, and the majority of the supers will support him.  We'll know more on March 5.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
I think any assessment of moral judgment in the case of FL and MI (0.00 / 0)
is going to be extremely contestable.  What exact values are in play here and which ones are preimmanent?  It appears that what is at stake here are our liberal democratic values, but how is that defined?  Is any voting system ever completely fair?  Is any institutional arrangment ever democratic enough, or too much?  How does one truly gauge the will of the people when it has changed so much from one month to the next?  The fact is that there will never be consensus on what the values are or on how they should be applied, nor still on which value is preimmanent.  

For my part, I think we have work under the understanding that the voters voted under and that candidates compaigned under at the time, which must mean that the delegates are not seated in FL or MI.  I agree that this can be seen as disenfranchisement, but it can just as easily be seen as maintaining the rule-based legitimacy of the process.  Since it was the agreed upon rules at the time it is, in my mind, the only possible legitimate outcome.  Seating them will be seen as favoring Clinton and rerunning them as caucuses will favor Obama.  In the former case, our participatory value is favored, while our procedural values are undermined.  In the later, it is vice versa.  In either case, the winner's legitimacy will be undermined.  

There is never a time in which we are not forced to choose among competing and at times conflicting values.  
 

The Politics of Bruno S.


Chris (0.00 / 0)
I think you miss something critical.

This is a contest for pledged delegates by agreed upon rules.

That meant that all the candidates knew ahead of time that they would compete for Pledged Delegates in the Congressional Districts of all the states and in territories minus Florida and Michigan. They agreed NOT to campaign in MI and FL and that there would be no pledged delegates from the primaries held in those states.

If the contest were to run up the popular vote, you would run your campaign completely differently.

If the contest were to persuade Super Delegates using the popular vote in MI and FL factored in, you would run your campaign differently.

Clinton, Edwards and Obama (as well as all the other candidates) knew the rules.

Rules like the 15% rule. Rules like those granting delegates based primarily on CD and not overall popular vote in a state. Rules like those handing out MORE delegates to states who went later in the process, and MORE delegates to states that went Blue in 2000 and 2004.

These rules were set up for the good of the party and to provide clarity, stability, transparency and predictability to the nomination process. They are not perfect, but have the singular advantage that they were KNOWN and AGREED to ahead of time.

Your metrics are flexible and moving.

Super Delegates need to understand that hundreds of thousands of volunteers and donors have participated in this process according to those rules. We've gone to where the campaigns told us, called those who we were asked, knocked on doors of those who would be most impactful.

We did this according to the rules.

These volunteers and donors are CRUCIAL components of Democratic victories in ALL of our races this fall.

You don't change the rules on the candidates. You don't invent metrics after the fact. And above all, the party should not alienate the millions who participated according to the rules set up ahead of time.

I know for a fact that if this were a contest for the popular vote or for "Super Delegates" that the campaigns would have looked completely different.

It is significant that there is one metric where EITHER campaign might win with the mantle of legitimacy and that is the contest for Pledged Delegates.

That contest and the rules it is conducted under should be respected by everyone.  


But the rules say that the superdelegates (0.00 / 0)
can do whatever they want.  There are more pledged delegates than superdelegates, and it's easier to knock people out of the campign by going after pledged delegates, so the candidates gunned mostly for the pledged delegates (though they both relished announcing big endorsements, too, which seems as much targed at getting more supers to endorse as it is targeted at the popular vote).  

Voters are obviously critically, critically important, their will should be respected, but those two statements have nothing to do with what the candidates agreed to before the fact, which was that MI and FL aren't seated, and that the superdelegates do whatever the hell they want to.


[ Parent ]
The Super Delegates (0.00 / 0)
The Super Delegates don't just "do whatever they want to."

They sit with their state delegations at the convention.
They cast a public vote.
They only vote AFTER the primaries are completed.

That is on purpose and has real political consequences. There's some accountability here.

By making your blithe comments about the Supers, you are implying something that isn't the case. The Super Delegates take the process very seriously. They understand the rules the candidates are competing by. They understand their role is not to form a "star chamber" but to do what is for the good of the party AFTER the Pledged Delegates are chosen and while they are SITTING IN THE MIDDLE of the thousands of Pledged Delegates who represent the will of the voters at the convention.

Super Delegates do have some rules and those rules shape how they see their repsonsibilities. To suggest otherwise is counter factual.



[ Parent ]
And they can vote in whatever way they want (0.00 / 0)
and for whatever reason they want.  This isn't to say that they don't take their vote seriously, or that their vote has no consequence, just that their vote is guided by moral and ethical and tactical reasons, not legalistic reasoning relating to rules.  They are not bound, particularly by 'the rules agreed upon by the candidates before the election' do do anything.  Clinton has been courting supers all along.  

I believe taht they should take democratic principles into account, and I believe that they are morally obliged to do so, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with rules.  You can't argue that MI and FL shouldn't be seated because those are the DNC rules, and then turn around and argue that the supers should support the pledged delegate leader, no matter how close the pledged delegate total is, and be consistent.  


[ Parent ]
What rules am I missing? (4.00 / 2)
This is a contest for pledged delegates by agreed upon rules.

What rules am I missing? I made it perfectly clear that none of these arguments are against any of the agreed upon rules. Not a single one of them.

Perhaps people were not clear on what the rules were, but that doesn't change them. This was not a contest based upon what people thought the rules were, even if they were wrong in their thinking.

I am not changing any rules here. I am simply elucidating what those rules actually were.  


[ Parent ]
The morality of rules (4.00 / 1)
There is a morality to playing by the rules that needs to be included as well.  Kidoakland makes a reasonable case that playing by the pre-agreed upon rules has moral weight.  This is a completely different argument than those who just say the rules are super delegates can vote for whomever they want.

[ Parent ]
What I'm saying (0.00 / 0)
is that there were values inherent in the rules.

Values sending the campaigns out to compete in Congressional Districts all over the USA. Values saying that voters in Nebraska and Louisiana and Maine and Washington are just as important as those who reside in Manhattan or Santa Monica or Boston's South Side.

Senator Clinton today said that these voters from last week-end "Don't represent the electorate." I disagree.

I don't think there's a moral or a value equivalence between the two campaigns on that front. One campaign has played by the rules and marshalled its resources to compete and win across the USA. That expresses a core value of mine: that Democrats are equal whatever their skin color. That Democrats are equal no matter if it's the first or fiftieth time they've taken up the ballot of our party or caucused in one of our primaries. (And as a pragmatic measure, the delegates won in Idaho and Nebraska and Colorado are a large part of Senator Obama's current margin. They count.)

I respect your plea for the expression of values within the rules, Chris...where I disagree is in according an equivalence to the two campaigns where there is a clear distinction.

One campaign runs nationwide according to the rules and expressing the values of our party; the other demeans whole states and caucuses, dismisses voters as "activists" and divisively re-injects the politics of identity into this contest for delegates in which they are not competing nation wide despite clearly having had the means to do so.

I respect your call to values, but would insist that there is one campaign were our "values" have expressed themselves cearly and unmistakeably. (Photos of Obama supporters in Omaha.)

Are those caucus goers merely "activists"; can we in good faith dismiss them as Senator Clinton has done today?

I don't think so. There is no equivalence between the campaigns on that front.

The values of our party were expressed in the rules. One campaign is singing with added participation and expansion of our party across the USA. The other is not.


[ Parent ]
I don't think there is moral equivalnce either (4.00 / 1)
And I'm not arguing that here. In fact, I think that the Obama campaign has the moral high ground overall on this issue, and that is pushing me further into his camp. I have written that on several occasions. I am cheering for Obama to build up a string of big wins because of it.

What I am saying is that, according to the rules, this would always be decided by the DNC credentials committee. And those were the agreed upon rules. These were not:

Values sending the campaigns out to compete in Congressional Districts all over the USA. Values saying that voters in Nebraska and Louisiana and Maine and Washington are just as important as those who reside in Manhattan or Santa Monica or Boston's South Side.

Campaigning as hard as possible everywhere is not in the rules. The rules were that the DNC credentials committee would determine the Michigan and Florida delegations. Whether or not many people knew it, those were in fact the agreed upon rules beforehand.

I respect your values. And that is what we should argue on--values, not rules. No one is advocating breaking the rules, not even Clinton, no matter how distasteful some of her recent statements have been.  


[ Parent ]
Very well said (0.00 / 0)
Not much more to add than that.

[ Parent ]
But - what are the supers for? (0.00 / 0)
If they automatically support the popular choice, they might as well not exist.

My understanding (very much subject to correction) is that the Dems introduced supers after the McGovern snafu - ie, for insiders to override the popular choice made (in the view of said insiders) by Dem voters with their heads up their asses.

If Dem voters's tulipmania goes beyond 60:40, the supers are powerless; but, where the margin in favor of the (sez them) erroneous popular choice is tighter than that - insider sense trumps popular will.


I though it was as much, if not more, about Eagleton (0.00 / 0)
as it was about McGovern himself.  

[ Parent ]
That Didn't Exists until Teddy (0.00 / 0)
got to close to actually winning.

[ Parent ]
Actually (0.00 / 0)
The purpose of super delegates is to make sure that Democratic elected officials bother to show up at the convention.  

[ Parent ]
Wisdom of crowds (0.00 / 0)
It's not just to get them to show up, but to participate in the choosing as well.  It is an ultimate check, but that can present its own problmes, as you have thoroughly set out.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
Rules and Values (0.00 / 0)
The problem I have with this post is the suggestion that rules and values are perfectly distinct.  Ronald Dworkin famously argued that all rules are undergirded by values, that the two concepts cannot always so easily be separated.  

I agree with Bowers that in the case of super-delegates, an argument that the superdelegates should follow the earned delegates leader is essentially a values argument.  By making this argument, I am asking superdelegates not to abide by any rule, but instead to follow democratic principles.  But here, you will notice, the democratic principle is not in any way embodied in the rule--the rule is specifically and purposefully undemocratic (i.e., let's make sure the public does not screw up by giving a ton of power to this small population of important people).  So I obviously cannot appeal to the rule or its underlying values to argue for the democratic outcome.

The argument I would make against including Florida and Michigan as it stands is, however, a rules argument.  First, and most fundamentally, just because you can retroactively change the rules through a committee does not mean the rules are not being broken.  See the ongoing Fisa debate, where in my opinion, the Congress is on the verge of breaking all kinds of rules, even while making their actions and those of the telecoms in some perverse way legally valid after the fact.  Second, and related, people create rules through private actions.  As a lawyer, most legal obligations I encounter are not those imposed by the state, rather they are those agreed upon between private parties--contracts and such.  Here, Clinton agreed that Florida and Michigan would not count.  There are all kinds of indications and public pronouncements to that effect.  It is breaking a rule, not to mention a value, to renege on that agreement.  

Perhaps you believe that the only rules are those that are legally enforceable.  However, I believe rules are a little more powerful than that.  When the credentials committee gets together, there will be arguments among them that they have to include/not include the Florida and Michigan delegates.  Many of the people voting will feel an obligation to go one way or the other--they will not feel as though they can just go with their gut.  In my opinion, they do have an obligation, not just something ephemeral such as their own policy views or, worse, the candidate they support, but a right and wrong choice.  Here the question as I would frame it is do we go with the plan that we all agreed on, or do we change the rules after the fact.  

A final note:  it's never impossible to change the rules after the fact; under the Bowers argument that would mean there are no rules--we can only appeal to values.  


Party first (4.00 / 1)
I think the super delegates know their role is to support the party first.  Since most agree it would be disastrous for the supers to go against the will of the people, I don't think it will happen.

But if neither can show a clear victory then it will be up to the supers, and quite honestly I don't think that is a bad thing.  If the general perception is Clinton and Obama basically tied, it probably makes more sense for the supers to make the determination than, say, voters is Puerto Rico.

If it is that close, I see little choice but to go with Clinton/Obama.  If I were a super, that is what I would push for.  (Personally, I'd prefer Obama/Clinton, but I think the reverse makes a better ticket due to age.  It gives the impression Obama gets next.)


How close is close? (0.00 / 0)
I just wonder what margin of parity will be necessary for the media not to crucify the party over the decision?  To me it comes down to how the media portrays the results as to whether it really damages our GE potential.  

I believe 40 delegates represents 1% of the total. I think if it is anything more than 3 or 4% the media goes apesh*t crazy and tries to delegitimize the nominee.


[ Parent ]
I don't know (0.00 / 0)
Even the gray area has a gray border.  I think even one delegate is enough for a victory as long as the method used to make the calculation is one that pushes the other the most.  For example, if Obama wins by one delegate including Florida and Michigan and including those super delegates that formally pledged support early on, then I think the win is decisive.  But one vote excluding Florida and Michigan and ignoring all early endorsements is clearly in the gray.

My real hope is voters will catch on to this and vote for Obama in greater numbers to save the party from itself.  We'll see.


[ Parent ]
Why should early endorsements matter? (0.00 / 0)
An endorsement coming early or late does not make the superdelegate more or less representative of Democratic voters.

The only gray area to me is MI and FL - I want the superdelegates to stay out of it unless the MI/FL margin becomes the determining factor (In which case they act as the tiebreaker).


[ Parent ]
It shouldn't (0.00 / 0)
I was just going for the cleanest line I could without even a hint of gray.  Unfortunately, there is already a perception reality that the initial super delegates count, as they show up on most news organizations tabulations.  But I agree they shouldn't.

[ Parent ]
3 or 4% is far too much. (0.00 / 0)
If Obama had a 40 pledged delegate margin - some form of FL and MI representation included - and the Supers overturn it, I'm out.

Hell, I'd have major problems if it ran the other way too.  I want Obama to win and think that he'd be the better nominee...  but the Democratic nominee should be the candidate who got more support from Democratic voters - not Democratic politicians.

The problem area is if an Obama margin of victory in pledged delegates comes withing a reasonable FL+MI margin (I tend to think of FL+MI being worth +60 delegates in a generous scenario for Clinton - if we reran both primaries, she would undoubtable have netted fewer delegates).  And that's the sort of tie I wouldn't have an issue with the superdelegates breaking.


[ Parent ]
40 pledged delegats (0.00 / 0)
is easily swung by all of the distortions in how the states assign delegates.  Hell, you can probably swing ten delegates just by the odd/even delegates in a state thing.  The 15% rule and the John Edwards delegates included, and that's already of the order of magnitude of 30 or 40 delegates.  

[ Parent ]
Sample Size (0.00 / 0)
Over more than 50+ states and territories, that's going to balance out due to sample size.

If it's 40 delegates and popular vote projections say that the popular vote went the other way, there may be an argument there - but over a larger sample size I think that the popular vote is probably going to agree with the delegate allocation.


[ Parent ]
Great yet sad (4.00 / 1)
I should also point out this was a great post, yet kinda sad you had to spell it out so formally.  I'm not sure why people have been arguing from a rules prospective.  Of course this is about values.  Duh.

There are actually some rules that apply (4.00 / 2)
First, superdelegates can caucus as a bloc and decide whatever they decide, but they cannot instruct delegates without changing the "Unit Rule" or without extracting pledges from individual superdelegates that they have some way of enforcing.

Second, whatever the Standing Committee on Credentials decides about FL/MI, the convention has plenary power to accept or reject what is, strictly speaking, an amendment to the Temporary Roll of the Convention. Indeed, a majority and minority report is the usual way to handle what would be two contested delegations.

The Democratic National (and all the state conventions) are not single-purpose side-shows. They are actually the very highest authorities in the parties with plenary power to do just about anything. Moreover, those state delegations and parties are not local chapters of the DNC. They are still closer to the people, hence, more nearly sovereign than the DNC.

The conventions are rule-driven but, in fact, can change what are only Temporary Rules and adopt just about anything by way of a Permanent Rule.

The Convention is conventional. It need not not reflect judicial opinions or statutes respecting the conduct of its proper business. At the end of the day, it can do pretty much whatever a majority of delegates want. The test of the party's soul, really, is whether a majority of delegates can intimidate a majority of superdelegates, or visa versa.  

::JRBehrman


[ Parent ]
Farther Clarification: contesting the notion of "rules" (0.00 / 0)
Obviously, that we follow the "rules" is a value we are all embracing.  

Why do we follow the rules?  

Because in a democratic context, the winner is only considered legitimate if he has won according to preestablished rules, in the context of which the electorate votes within.  Legitimacy is essentially the fundemental reason we have democratic procedures in the first place.  

But what are the rules in this case?  

Is it the convention by-laws?  Those of the states' legislatures?  The determinations of the DNC to strip these delegates?  There are a lot of competing versions of the "rules."  That's what is fundementally in question here.  

So I would argue that the rules have to be essentially intuited based on the assumptions of the candidates at the time and the voters at the time.  If the voters understood that a choice to stay home or vote for a particular candidate was occurring in a context in which delegates would not be allocated, than that should stand.  If the candidates did not campaign because of these assumptions, that should stand.

The option to rerun will favor Obama, because he is now better positioned in those states.  Thus, if his closer margins result in his victory in the nomination, his legitimacy will be undermined.  

If the option to seat the delegates results in Clinton's nomination, she will be seen as illegitimate.  

Best choice is to work under the "rules" as they were understood by everyone at the time the controversy occurred.

The Politics of Bruno S.


Delegate allocation from FL & MI (0.00 / 0)
What would the delegate allocation be for Florida, based on the vote?  I was trying to find it, but I was unable to.

I was also curious what the delegate allocation would be for Michigan, both assuming Uncommitted are Obama's and not.


See footnotes to "Pledged Delegate Count (+) " (0.00 / 0)
MI 73 Clinton and 55 uncommitted
FL 95 Clinton, 63 Obama, 27 Edwards

So it's a swing of somewhere between 105 and 50 depending on what they do about MI uncommitted.


[ Parent ]
Don't forget the goalposts would also move (0.00 / 0)
If MI/FL are seated, then that increases the total number of delegates by 366 and the number needed for nomination by 183.

[ Parent ]
About those rules: (0.00 / 0)
This is as good a place as any to ask, whether Chris or anyone else who may know, on what party rule or regulation did the DNC rely as its basis to deny Michigan and Florida all of their Convention Delegates?

I've been through the 2008 Call (adopted August 2006), the Delegate Selection Rules (also adopted August 2006), and the Regulations for the 2008 Convention (adopted by the Rules/Bylaws Committee in November, 2006, and amended in February, 2007).  The only relevant guidance that I can find is in the Selection Rules, at Rule 20.C.1.a, which provides that:

Violation of timing: In the event the Delegate Selection Plan of a state party provides or permits a meeting, caucus, convention or primary which constitutes the first determining stage in the presidential nominating process to be held prior to or after the dates for the state as provided in Rule 11 of these rules, or in the event a state holds such a meeting, caucus, convention or primary prior to or after such dates, the number of pledged delegates elected in each category allocated to the state pursuant to the Call for the National Convention shall be reduced by fifty (50%) percent, and the number of alternates shall also be reduced by fifty (50%) percent. In addition, none of the members of the Democratic National Committee and no other unpledged delegate allocated pursuant to Rule 8.A. from that state shall be permitted to vote as members of the state's delegation.

How did we go from cutting those states by 50 percent to zeroing them entirely?  Is it solely on the basis of Rule 20.C.5, which is a catchall that says, in effect, that the DNC can impose "additional sanctions" in its discretion?


My Way or Bush Three? (0.00 / 0)
"If they also demonstrate that they don't care about our votes, then I am outta here."  

And I ask again how one determines that they don't care, not that they do?  If they don't pick your candidate?  Are you 'outta here' if Clinton has more total votes nationwide than Obama, or only the other way?  

You're 'outta here' and you'll let the neo-con coup d'etat come to complete fruition with the complete remaking of the Supreme Court?

Then pick up your marbles and get 'outta here' until you grow up and figure out that instead of 20 years to undo the damage the Cheney-Bush regime has done, it may take a 100!  

Grow up!

I will support the candidate of the Democratic Party whoever it is period, I pledge!


I'm not sure the second binary is real (0.00 / 0)
The second binary is between those who think that Michigan and Florida should have a say in who determines the Democratic presidential nominee in 2008, and those who think that Michigan and Florida forfeited those rights by changing their primary dates.

I don't come across many people who think MI and FL "forfeited their rights" by holding their primaries early.  Most people I know who think their early primaries shouldn't count, would be perfectly satisfied with a do-over of some sort.  (Which really means only the first binary is real.)

And this political season affords a great opportunity for such a do-over, that would increase the impact of MI and FL on the process.

If each state party, with $$ help from the DNC, held primary-style caucuses during the six-week gap between Mississippi (March 11) and Pennsylvania (April 22), they'd each get the full attention of the candidates for a couple of weeks, would get tons of press, and would get to (if you don't mind the analogy) step to the plate with the game tied up and runners aboard in the late innings.

Seems to me that it would be in the best interests of both state parties to make such a deal with the national party.  This is an opportunity, not a problem.


I pretty much agree (0.00 / 0)
with What Digby's saying here.  It just isn't clear to me how you can insist on hard and fast rules with this stuff.  There's no magical way to extract 'the popular will' or 'democracy' out of this disaster.

I hope she's right that the tie's going to get broken.


here, here! (0.00 / 0)
A thoughtful and sensible solution, though not a simple one. The Democratic Party would be shooting itself in the foot (regarding the General Election) by denying the voters of FL and MI their voices. It would also do serious harm to its long-term standing among the voters of those states. That is not something the Democratic Party should do, and it needs to take the long as well as a short-term, 2008 view. Moreover it would be simply unethical and unfair to completely reject the results of their primaries.  

I'm down with the Florida results for the reasons you say, and hope MI can redo its primary, or by having a New Mexico style (i.e. primary-like) caucus. If so, it would need to be a closed vote, otherwise the potential for Republican ratfucking and double-voting is too great.

Your suggestion for allocating MI delegates to Obama sounds good to me, though I think it should be on the high end. Some supporters, who knows how many, simply didn't vote, or crossed over to serve the great patriotic cause of Mittmentum. Then again, Edwards would likely have won a number of delegates that might now be apportioned to Obama. So allocating all 55 works for me. It would certainly save a great deal of money. Overall though, a revote in MI of some sort seems like the fairest solution of all, and ensuring the process is fair--and, importantly, perceived as such--is crucial.


Donate to Open Left








Friends of the Earth thanks the OpenLeft community for the ideas you generate and your contributions to the progressive movement.

As an anti-spam measure, there is a 24-hour waiting period after registering before new users can comment.
blog advertising is good for you
blog advertising is good for you
SEARCH

   

Advanced Search