Open Thread

by: Matt Stoller

Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 12:05


Last night I saw Bill Clinton speak at George Mason University, and it was an hour of policy to massive applause.  I took two things away from the event; the Clinton's are fighters and are not depressed at all, and the public is interested in policy and not the crap they see on TV.

At any rate, I'm heading out to Maryland to canvass.  Talk amongst yourselves.

...I should note that I'm also heading to the polls to vote in the DC primary, and I'm voting for Obama even though I have serious reservations.  I can't vote for Clinton because she voted for the war and doesn't think it was a mistake.

So that's my choice.
Matt Stoller :: Open Thread

Tags: , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Open Thread | 24 comments
McCain No You Can't (0.00 / 0)
I think this is a great video hitting McCain building on Obama's Yes You Can campaign:

http://openleft.com/showDiary....

someone emailed me this morning. searching it looks like it hit DKos yesterday, but did not get much attention.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

When Bill gets going, he is awesome (0.00 / 0)
And I mean that in the best way.  Really.  Guess what?  He'd make a good President!

The thing is, Hillary is not Bill.  Not as awesome a candidate. (A good candidate, don't get me wrong, but not awesome.)

Barack Obama is an awesome candidate, both in style and substance.

I'm voting for the awesome!

No one doubts their policy credentials (0.00 / 0)
which are second to none--wonks to the core. It's their character, judgement and honesty that people have problems with--quite rightfully, I believe.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton
[ Parent ]
well, they're interested (0.00 / 0)
in policy yes. but they're only crazy like that for policy when they're addressed by the most brilliant policy wonk of the past 30 years. Hillary's very good too, and she'd get the same response--but only because she's running. Bill and Al Gore would get that response at any given time.
New Wisconsin poll (0.00 / 0)
Today's FISA vote will help Obama in Wisconsin (0.00 / 0)
He voted against immunity, she didn't show up--the only senator, other than Graham, who didn't. Considering Wisconsin's long history of supporting civil liberties and their champions--e.g. Feingold (although, of course, there's always McCarthy)--I can't imagine that this won't help him and hurt her. I'm sure that they're putting together the attack ads even now.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton
[ Parent ]
Some thoughts on Hillary's Iraq vote (0.00 / 0)
My husband had the same problem about her Iraq vote.  This is what I told him.  There are strategic reasons why she can't and shouldn't apologize.

In my old college days I used to ref the frat boys intramural volleyball games (I was on the college women's team). When you are a ref and you call a play, you stick to your call.  You can't apologize for it or allow the players to threaten you into changing your call. Otherwise you lose power and authority. If Hillary were to apologze for her vote, she would lose some of her power and authority and would be targeted as a flip-flopper by the Republicans.

Lots of generally good Democrats got caught up in the rush for war at the time based on what they thought was going on. I never needed them apologize to me, any more than I expect my husband to apologize when he's done something he thinks is right but I don't.  What I want to see anyone say to me after making what I think is a "bad call" is that they will pay more attention next time and look more closely at what is going on and possible future consequences and make a better decision.

Personally I always thought the Iraq war was a bad idea.  But I am not a professional politican that has to worry about my political future if I decide to run for president, or worry about my relationships with other memebers of congress because of other legislation, so it's not a fair comparison. And Obama has supported the war with his votes ever since he went to congress.  When did he ever get up and make a stand against the war once he got into the Senate?  He gets alot of credit for being against the war when he was in a lesser power position, but once he arrived in the senate he voted to go along with the mainstream on stuff.  Has Obama apologized for voting continuously supporting the war once he got into the senate?

Obama and Hillary are both good candidate for different reasons.  They both have strengths and weaknesses. I will vote for whomever the candidate is.  But I think it's too bad so many in the netroots "need an apology." How well does a significant other react if one says to them "I really need an apology from you about XXX right now or YYY"?

How about an apology for this one? (0.00 / 0)

Hillary couldn't even be bothered to show up and vote on Telecom Immunity?

The Bush administration illegally spies on Americans, the telecom companies help and Hillary couldn't show up to do the "hard work" of getting the amendment passed that would stop the immunity?

Anyone who cares about civil rights should think long and hard about that before they vote for Hillary.  I've had 3 friends email me already saying they were undecided and that sealed it for Obama.

[ Parent ]
P.S. The GUILTY, a list. (4.00 / 1)
Jay Rockefeller (D-WV)
Evan Bayh (D-IA)
Daniel Inouye (D-HI)
Tim Johnson (D-SD)
Herb Kohl (D-WI)
Mary Landrieu (D-LA)
Claire McCaskill (D-MO)
Mark Pryor (D-AR)
Blanche Lincoln (D-AR)
Dianne Feinstein (D-CA)
Ken Salazar (D-CO)
Tom Carper (D-DE)
Barbara Mikulski (D-MD)
Jim Webb (D-VA)
Ben Nelson (D-NE)
Bill Nelson(D-FL)
Kent Conrad (D-ND)
Debbie Stabenow (D-MI)

I don't care what good they've done.  This issue was black & white.  Illegal spying. On Americans.  Every single one of these democrats needs to be removed from office.  Yes, this Obama supporter is calling for the removal of McCaskill.

[ Parent ]
Oh my god, really? (0.00 / 0)
Thanks for sharing the latest gossip about your social circle!  I know how important it is for every single vote every Democratic candidate makes to be approved of by the netroots.  Because us non-politicans know best. We know exactly how their schedule should be managed and what their strategy should be even though we're really not in their shoes.

The whole FISA thing is pathetic but I lay that on Reid and the Bush dogs.  Obama and Hillary have both missed votes here and there on a number of issues, but neither has missed votes where there vote wouyld have made a difference in the result.

Not worth wasting my emotional energy when one of them does something I don't like.  But then I'm an old fart now and pretty jaded about politics in general.  Both Hillary and Obama do stuff I don't like and they both have voted in ways that I disagree with.  They're politicans, ya know.  They're not activists with axes to grind. They are both the establishment and both play the political game to win based on their advisers and such.

[ Parent ]
"Because us non-politicans know best." (0.00 / 0)

Yes, actually - we do.  And if you don't agree, perhaps you would like to find yourself an autocracy to live in?

This isn't about winning.

[ Parent ]
it is important (0.00 / 0)
It is easy to talk about strategy, or ridicule the netroots for being critical of "every single vote", but that is minimizing what the votes are about.

Clinton's war vote had real life implications for a hell of a lot of Iraqis, not to mention our soldiers and their families.  Death, destruction, homelessness, cannot be dismissed by just focusing on strategy and them being politicians who want to win.  

Same goes for telecom immunity.  It has a huge effect on our lives and our children's future.  I don't see it as a waste of emotional energy to hold them accountable for their actions.

Perhaps I have an axe to grind, but it is not a trivial situation.

If they are merely playing a political game to win, then we so need to show them the real life consequences of their games and strategy.

I am sick of cynicism.  I understand the forces working against compassion, equality, and justice are huge but I am not ready to give up.  

Plus I really think the internets have the potential for making activism and politics a whole different ballgame compared to past generations - you know with the spreading of gossip and such sigh

[ Parent ]
So that's what activists are--people with axes to grind? (0.00 / 0)
Not people who actually believe in and fight for matters of principle?

Thanks for sharing.

Enjoy your cynicism.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
Nice try--totally unconvincing (0.00 / 0)
First, that you'd compare a war in which thousands of lives have been lost, millions hurt and displaced, trillions wasted, and with who knows what future consequences that might dwarf these, to a freaking college football game, indicates to me how seriously you take these issues, and how little you understand or care about them. Football=war, for Christ's sakes?!?

Second, he HAS taken stands against the war, voting for a number of bills to end the war and against a number of bills intended to extend it, and making speeches on the floor of the senate and elsewhere against the war.

Third, that you'd cynically explain cowardly political maneuvering as an excuse for voting for the war further shows how unserious you are about these issues.

And fourth, considering that Clinton voted for Kyl-Lieberam, I think it's obvious that she's not learned from, regretted, or changed her foreign policy stance, since her Iraq vote. She's only found new ways of reframing and explaining it. She is a foreign policy, trigger-happy hawk, operating out of fear, not wisdom, confidence or I think principle.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

[ Parent ]
I voted today (4.00 / 3)
...forgot all the other candidates would still be on the ballot. I saw "John Edwards" and nearly voted for him. I checked and then unchecked his name just to make myself feel better. Hopefully Obama doesn't disappoint.
word (0.00 / 0)
i hear you.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare
[ Parent ]
Seconded n/t (0.00 / 0)


Former Edwards Supporter, Obama Supporter since January 30, 2008
[ Parent ]
Not buying it (0.00 / 0)
The voters I talk to aren't interested in policy plans, because they know they are just plans. They are tired of looking at the same old faces on the tv promising the same old promises and they see the same results every single day. The mood of AMerica is sour and they will buy what Obama is selling whether it turns out to be a mirage or not.

Unless they're white - says Hillary's Surrogate (0.00 / 0)
"You've got conservative whites here, and I think there are some whites who are probably not ready to vote for an African-American candidate."

Gov. Ed Rendell (D-PA), who has endorsed Sen. Clinton and is campaigning on her behalf...

[ Parent ]
The reason I'm waiting (0.00 / 0)
In 1996, Barack Obama let a number of his constituents virtually freeze, and he did absolutely nothing about it. Tony Rezko, had taken 43 million in government loans to rehab a number of government assisted apartments in South Chicago, and   when he couldn't turn on the heat for 5 weeks in February, Obama, as the elected official of eleven of those buildings, did absolutely nothing to get the heat turned on. Now either he didn't know what to do, or he simply didn't care, I don't know, but until that situation is explored in greater depth I can't get behind him.
Hillary is no better. Her cozying up to lobbyists to sell her votes is as despicable as one can get in Washington. The nearly 1 million dollars she has accepted from health care lobbyists, while looking us straight in the eye to tell us what she is going to do to rein them in is laughable.
We have six months until the convention. I'm going to wait to see who really develops as the best candidate. Then I'll be happy to get in line.
Do you have evidence (0.00 / 0)
that he was even aware of their situation, and yet did nothing to help them? I suppose that one could argue that as a politician, he should have kept on top of such things. But as a state senator, as opposed to an assemblyman or councilman, I'm not sure that this sort of thing was in his official purview. So I remain unconvinced of the allegedly damning nature of this matter. I need to see something more solid than what you've presented.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton
[ Parent ]
I don't want to damn Obama, but I do feel entitled to answers (0.00 / 0)
Below is a link to an article about the incident. I think you may agree that more discovery needs to be done about this.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/m...
[ Parent ]
Oh, you can count on more "discovery" on this (0.00 / 0)
The only question is who'll be behind it--legitimate media outlets, or some Sciafe-funded hit group (which they'll probably call the "Madrassah/Slumlord Project")?

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton
[ Parent ]
Count her no-show in today's FISA vote as yet another reason (0.00 / 0)
to not vote for her. And Kyl-Lieberman of course. And her dishonest prevarication about having read all of the available intel before the war vote (she did not read the classified NIE, only the predigested summary that left out all the conflicting evidence and doubts about Iraq's WMD). Oh, and all the dogwhistling, which continues even today (Rendell).

She might be good on lots of domestic policy issues--even better than Obama on some--but there are serious character, judgement and honesty issues here that to me nullify this.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton

Open Thread | 24 comments
Donate to Open Left







QUICK HITS

Friends of the Earth thanks the OpenLeft community for the ideas you generate and your contributions to the progressive movement.
As an anti-spam measure, there is a 24-hour waiting period after registering before new users can comment.
blog advertising is good for you
blog advertising is good for you
LIBERAL INSTITUTIONS
STATE BLOGS
SEARCH

   

Advanced Search

Home | RSS/XML Feed | Register | Contact

  © OpenLeft 2007-2009, Powered by SoapBlox