Why The DNC Credentials Committee Should, In June, Uphold The Florida Primary

by: Chris Bowers

Tue Feb 12, 2008 at 15:34


In yesterday's article, Delegate Arguments Are Based On Values, Not Rules, I argued both that there was no rule preventing super delegates from upholding democratic principles by voting en masse for the popular vote / pledged delegate winner, and that there was no rule preventing the DNC credentials committee from upholding democratic values by seating a Florida delegation based on the results of the January 29th Democratic primary. In response, many, many people have argued that the Florida primary was undemocratic because of voter expectations in the primary. Consider, for example, the following comment from Open Left user Spectatus, which was recommended by no less than nine other users (which is a lot for Open Left):

This plays into your democratic/non-democratic binary, but one of the reasons that MI and FL were seriously flawed is that in addition to not campaigning, many voters could have -- perhaps correctly -- believed that there was no point in voting since the DNC had stated that the states would not have delegates.

On this theory, the two states were not democratic, even if everyone was on the ballot:  a basic precondition of a fair vote, i.e., the wide expectation that it would be followed, was missing.

Now, I hate calling out individual commenters, but I am only doing so here as an example of an argument I have heard many times before. Specifically, the argument is that the Florida Democratic primary was undemocratic because many Floridians thought their votes would not count, and thus did not turn out. It is true that many Floridians did not turnout, since Florida is one of only four states so far in 2008 to have lower Democratic turnout than Republican turnout (Michigan, Utah and Arizona are the other three). However, this argument is still an utterly insufficient reason for voiding the election altogether. In the extended entry, I provide four rebuttals:  

Chris Bowers :: Why The DNC Credentials Committee Should, In June, Uphold The Florida Primary
  • First, it is a fool's game to try and enter the heads of voters, and assume that most of them thought their votes would not count. Among the 1.7 million Floridians who did vote in the Democratic primary, quite a few of them probably thought that their votes did matter and would count. In fact, it would not be a stretch to argue that most of them thought that their votes would matter. At best, there were conflicting expectations among the Florida Democratic electorate.

  • Second, there is no evidence to indicate that the voters who did not turnout to vote favored one candidate more than another. None whatsoever. In fact, According to both Pollster.com, Obama over-performed pre-election, post-South Carolina polls, although only because Obama received all of the undecideds. According to Real Clear Politics, pre-election polls were precisely on target. If anything, the lower turnout hurt Clinton, not Obama. Truthfully, it probably didn't change the outcome at all.

  • Third, those who expected their votes not to matter were misinformed. While I think I am just about the only person pointing this out, all along the Florida Democratic Party vowed to send a delegation to the convention based on the results of the primary, and all along, sometime in June or July the DNC credentials committee would determine if that delegation would be partially or entirely accepted or rejected. These were always the rules, and nothing has changed. Further, odds have always been heavily in favor of the delegation being entirely accepted by the credentials committee, both because there will probably be a presumptive nominee by mid-June and because it is difficult for the Obama campaign to develop a compelling enough reason to piss off such a huge swing state. Even though it was not explained very well to the voters, by far the most likely scenario was always that results the primary would stand. Sure, some will complain about the inaccurate expectations created for some voters based on the DNC's decision to temporarily strip Florida's pledged delegates, but I would counter that if inaccurate media narratives disqualified an election from being democratic, then this country has never had a democratic election, ever.

  • Fourth, with the expectations argument answered, exactly what was undemocratic about the Florida Democratic primary, anyway? All candidates were on the ballot, and all of the voters were exposed to an entire year of national campaigning. Personally, I don't see paid media, field operations, direct mail, or local campaign rallies as necessary pre-requisites for democracy to take place. Yes, the media was not doing a good job informing voters about the campaign, and Florida voters were not exposed to quite as much campaigning as were voters in other states, but those are extremely flimsy and selective grounds to throw out an election altogether. What other elections should be disqualified because Obama and Clinton did not spend enough campaign resources there? What other elections should be disqualified because voters did not fully understand the Byzantine delegate selection rules to the national convention? What other elections should be disqualified because the news media did not do a good job of informing voters? If these are the criteria to be used, then I would have to say all of them.

Now, I am not arguing that the DNC should convene some sort of special session to give Florida it's pledged delegates back. Instead, it should follow the process that was laid down at the start of the campaign: let the credentials committee deal with it once it takes control over the process in mid-June. I also don't think that Florida's projected pledged delegates should be included in the running delegate totals. The fact is that right now Florida does not have any pledged delegates, and until they do those delegates should not be included. Further, the ultimate purpose of the DNC's original decision was not for Florida to be denied a full delegation at the convention, but rather for Florida to have as little impact on the course of the nomination campaign as possible. Specifically, the DNC sought to for Florida to have no impact on either media / momentum narratives, or in the running delegate count. So far, with minimal coverage of the Democratic Florida results in the week following January 29th, and with no news organization including Florida's delegate counts in their running totals, the DNC's punishment has held firm.

What I am saying is that when the DNC credentials committee takes authority over the matter in mid-June, they should, at that time, approve Florida's delegation as determined by the results of the January 29th primary (and then, at that time, those delegates should be included in the running delegate totals). There is no compelling reason to void the results of Florida's primary that does not also apply to the primaries and caucuses of dozens of other states nationwide. Virtually no voters understand their local delegate selection process. Almost every voter has been exposed to inaccurate media narratives. After a year of national coverage, the different amounts of exposure to the campaigns among Floridians and non-Floridians is minimal. Also, the DNC's punishment has achieved its goal, as Florida has been denied a major role in the horserace to date. The sentence for changing the primary date has been served.

Sometime in June or July, the DNC credentials committee should, and probably will, seat a Florida delegation that is based on the results of the Florida Democratic primary. This is the most democratic thing to do within the rules that were set down before the start of the campaign. Michigan is another matter, but as far as Florida is concerned, there is no compelling reason to separate their delegation from the results of the January 29th primary.  


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What really needs to happen is for one candidate (4.00 / 5)
To get enough delegates for this not to matter.

I think/hope we are on our way to that.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


Indeed (0.00 / 0)
I am hoping for that one, too.  

[ Parent ]
All what you say is true, BUT (4.00 / 2)
at the same time, I seriously doubt that the margin (and the delegate count) wouldn't have been narrowed between Hillary and Obama, had Obama been campaigning.  

That's not enough reason to discount the decision, given the multiplicity of reasons to COUNT Florida's votes (that you describe ably).  

But that doesn't mean that Obama campaigning, wouldn't have made a difference in Florida, if clearly unquantifiable at this time.


Clinton didn't campaign either (4.00 / 2)
She could have done well in Florida had she been allowed to campaign there. In fact, I think it could be argued that if Florida took place on Super Tuesday, the narrative coming out of Super Tuesday would have been a Clinton victory, not a draw.

Something to consider...


[ Parent ]
Clearly (4.00 / 2)
Clinton would have run away with the election if no campaigning was allowed in every state.  You have a point about narrative (even a narrow Florida win would've helped Clinton), but I just don't see how there can be any doubt that the Florida race would've been at least closer if Obama (and Clinton) had been allowed to campaign.

[ Parent ]
She threw events that generated positive press. (0.00 / 0)
The events and announcements Hillary made prior to the primary were indirectly campaigning in Florida.  Obama honored the pledge both in letter and spirit.  Hillary showed, once again, her lack of honor by honoring only the letter but not the spirit of the pledge.

Some might feel that shows that she does what it takes to win.  But at what cost?  As in the previous Clinton Presidency, will she throw progressives under the bus time and time again because it is expedient?  Will she truly champion progressive causes or will she just champion herself and do whatever it takes to remain in power no matter what promises and pledges she breaks?


[ Parent ]
Anarchy! (4.00 / 6)
If the DNC doesn't stand its ground here, there is no reason for any state to abide by any future DNC primary calendar.  You don't address that point in your post.

sure I did (4.00 / 2)
Further, the ultimate purpose of the DNC's original decision was not for Florida to be denied a full delegation at the convention, but rather for Florida to have as little impact on the course of the nomination campaign as possible. Specifically, the DNC sought to for Florida to have no impact on either media / momentum narratives, or in the running delegate count. So far, with minimal coverage of the Democratic Florida results in the week following January 29th, and with no news organization including Florida's delegate counts in their running totals, the DNC's punishment has held firm.


[ Parent ]
Come on (4.00 / 3)
If next election, everybody knows they'll end up counting anyways, then the narrative will be affected next time and the DNC is rendered completely irrelevant.  

[ Parent ]
Though (0.00 / 0)
even as a Hawkeye, the current system works for me, I hope we can come to some agreement on a fair system next time so this doesn't come up...

[ Parent ]
your state moved up too (0.00 / 0)
maybe we should nuke Iowa's delegates so as to guarantee the sanctity of the election process. Such a punishment for Florida would strike me as both excessive and selective.

Besides, no matter what the DNC does to Florida now, it doesn't matter. Florida was the decisive primary for Republicans. Even if they don't get seated at the Democratic convention, the all-Republican state government will undoubtedly consider deciding the Republican nominee worth it anyway.  


[ Parent ]
The justice or wisdom (0.00 / 0)
of the DNC's original punishment is a separate matter (as is your proposed punishment of Iowa).  As far as I can tell, you still haven't answered Whoppo's original comment.  If it's known in advance that any sanction by the DNC is just a bluff then every state will feel free to ignore it.  

[ Parent ]
Chris has now pointed out twice (0.00 / 0)
that the sanction was to deprive FL of the income and attention the campaigns bring in-- which is the only reason they all want to move their primaries/caucuses up early to begin with.

The sanction was not a bluff.  All the candidates honored it and nobody campaigned there (except for the airing of Obama's national ads).

I agree whole-heartedly that somebody needs to figure out how to get this whole business of primary scheduling under control.  But to say the sanction was a bluff is simply wrong.  



[ Parent ]
Please read (0.00 / 0)
the discussion more closely.  It was not treated as a bluff this time.

If the delegates are seated and decide the Democratic race, then a similar sanction in the future WILL be treated by both states and media as a likely bluff.  That is the issue that hasn't been seriously addressed.

Everybody understands the points you raise.  


[ Parent ]
Doesn't Work (4.00 / 6)
If they seat the delegation now, all future states that move up will be covered under the presumption that those delegates are going to be seated, since the DNC will just cave like it did for Florida.

I agree with you about what the DNC's purpose actually was, but seating them will fundamentally undermine that purpose for future elections unless there is no possibility of a floor fight for the nomination, in which case who cares.


[ Parent ]
well not *all* (0.00 / 0)
Few states are as big, influential and swingable as Florida.  Michigan is big too and has voted Republican in recent memory (Reagan and Bush Sr I think...).

If Rhode Island or Hawaii tries this, they'll get stomped.

What we might see is the biggest or most decisive electoral states have impunity to primary whenever they damn well please with smaller and more solidly red or blue states stuck in a second tier of obeying DNC rules.



[ Parent ]
I just don't see how it matters (0.00 / 0)
So Florida is a big, republican-leaning swing state.  How many swing voters care about this?  My guess would be practically none, although I'd be interested in seeing some polling on it if you have any.

[ Parent ]
That future purpose already has been undermined (4.00 / 2)
No matter what the DNC does now, Florida was the decisive Republican primary. I think that the all-Republican state government there probably considers that worth it. They also probably like screwing around with Democrats, too.  

[ Parent ]
Dems Could Caucus (4.00 / 1)
Nothing stopped the Democrats there from holding a caucus of some kind - the DNC even offered to pay for it.  You can't blame this completely on the Republicans.

[ Parent ]
But that's only because the RNC allowed Florida half its delegates... (0.00 / 0)


One Million Strong --- Join up!

[ Parent ]
not so sure (4.00 / 1)
If in the end, the Florida delegation is seated, but it isn't a factor in the outcome (in the sense that one candidate already has the nomination wrapped up by June or July, when the credentials committee meets), then it seems to me that the DNC's purpose was met.

After all, that would mean that:
-no Dems campaigned in Florida
-no adds were run specifically in Florida markets by Dems
-the media didn't treat Florida as important for the Dems, and thus didn't cover the Flordia Dem race as anything other than a strawpoll.

Yes, it is true that the delegates didn't end up disappearing, so technically the Florida vote "counted". But no more than a primary that occurs in May or June of a typical year, after the nomination has long been decided. So the whole thing ends up being effectively equivalent to Florida voting after the nomination was determined.  


[ Parent ]
I agree with this (0.00 / 0)
That's what I meant when I talked about there being no floor fight.  As long as the nomination is not actually decided at convention, no one cares if the Florida delegation is seated.

[ Parent ]
cite please (0.00 / 0)
Hi Chris, could you please provide a citation for this particular assertion?

The truth about Saxby Chambliss

[ Parent ]
One Problem with that Argument (4.00 / 1)
Clinton supporters were being egged on by Clinton BEFORE the Florida primary, told their votes would count and that voting mattered.

Obama supporters were being told their vote would not count, and that it was a meaningless election.  

So Clinton supporters went out to the polls with the mindset that their votes would give Clinton at least a symbolic win and that she'd fight for their delegation to be seated.  

Obama supporters figured their vote would be worth nothing, that the media wouldn't pay attention, etc.

How can you call that a fair election?


Obama overperformed pre-election polls (0.00 / 0)
According to both Pollster.com, Obama overperformed pre-election, post-South Carolina polls. According to Real Clear Politics, pre-election polls were precisely on target. So, I see no evidence of the trend you suggest.  

[ Parent ]
That kind of analysis would've worked out great for you in New Hampshire (4.00 / 1)
You do realize that to decide who's considered a likely voter, they ask you if you actually plan to vote, so if you said no cause you thought it wouldn't count, you'd be out of the screen, right?

Come on Chris, you know better than that...


[ Parent ]
This won't suffice (4.00 / 1)
You can't simply point at New Hampshire as a sole reason for throwing out all polls forever and leaving this kind of analysis in the realm of pure speculation.

New Hampshire polling was "wrong" in predicting the winner, but were the polls actually inaccurate or did people change their minds late in the game?  Who knows!

Besides, however wrong NH was, that's not evidence for what you claim above, that somehow Obama would have done even better in Florida or even won the primary there.  


[ Parent ]
I hadn't heard that (0.00 / 0)
the Obama campaign told people in FL their vote wouldn't count. Is that really true?  I can't believe they could have been that naive, since even a "beauty contest" win would have been worth a lot.  Unless, of course, they were deliberately sabotaging the vote so they could later insist, as you have, that the vote was unfair.  But I sure hadn't heard anything about it until your post, so I'm dubious that there was really a far-reaching overall campaign strategy to do that.

If it is true, then I'd say the Obama campaign guessed wrong about how this would turn out, shot themselves in the foot and betrayed their own voters there, and they get to take the consequences of that.



[ Parent ]
Impressive piece (0.00 / 0)
You wrote a piece on why Florida should count, and you only mentioned the candidates' names three times. Most arguments about Florida center around "It'll help Clinton!" or "It'll hurt Obama!"

I agree with you here. In a perfect world, Florida would have never broken the rules and we'd have a contested primary later in the year. But they did break the rules, so the 1/29 results are the best we're going to get.

Seating Florida will be an important issue in November, so it's in our electoral best interest to appease them.

At the rate the races are going now, Florida's not going to change anything anyway. If Obama's up by 100 delegates, another +38 for Clinton isn't going to steal the nomination from him. If it has no impact on the nominee as chosen by the other states and territories, why not give them some seats in Denver?


FL and MI should have a redo. (4.00 / 2)
The only true fair way to seat delegates from Michigan and Florida is to set a date a month or so from now to vote in a primary or caucus that both Obama and Hillary are on the ballot and both can campaign for.  The DNC stripped their delegates because they violated both the letter and the spirit of the rules that they had agreed to earlier.  Part of Democracy is to accept the ruling of the majority when decisions are made.  You can, and should if you disagree, fight to overturn rules and laws but until the rule/law is changed they should be followed or accept the consequences of not following them in civil disobedience.

As it stands in Michigan, Hillary was the only name on the ballot and people had to write in undecided (which they did at extremely high numbers.)  In Florida, Obama honored the pledge to not campaign while Hillary threw closed events to give the excuse that she wasn't campaigning when it generated press equal to her campaigning there.  Neither primary allowed for an even playing field to determine the true will of the Democrats in those states.  

The only fair way to have their voices heard is to set up a new election and then accept the decision of that election no matter the outcome.  Considering current trends and past statements by both, it would be a fair assessment to believe that Florida might elect more delegates for Hillary than the previous count.  Though Michigan would likely swing to Obama.


I'm not so sure that Michigan wants a redo. (0.00 / 0)
The reason MI did what it did was to challenge a system that allows the same two states to (generally) pick the parties nominee based on issues that are not transferrable.  Michigan might have lost its vote (very democratic of the Democratic Party to strip we the people of Michigan of our right to vote), but MI made its point; and if things keep on the way they are going, it will only get continue to be underscored.  If I were king, I would have closed, regional primaries scheduled on a rotating basis.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
Does anybody but me have problems with this site? (0.00 / 0)
My screen jumps.  I sit and spin.  The good news is that it has a memory, and as I flounder I am often lucky enough to recapture what I typed and lost.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
What is "undemocratic" is the ploy... (0.00 / 0)
that Hillary, Florida and Michigan tried to pull.  The time to voice opposition was almost 2 years ago when the rules committee with delegates from both Michigan and Florida set up the schedule.  When the "democratic" decision process did not have the out come that Michigan or Florida desired they "undemocratically" decided to take unilateral action against the "democratic" decision of the schedule.  Once they declared themselves to be outside of the rules and bylaws of the Democratic Party (again decided upon and ratified by "democratic" processes that both Florida and Michigan were part of) they declared themselves to be outside of the Democratic Party.


[ Parent ]
MI was content until............ (0.00 / 0)
http://www.dailykos.com/commen...

So tell me.  What voice or authority do I have over the MDP; and if I have no authority, why did they take MY vote?  

Civil disobedience is what changes the world, not asking for permission.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  


[ Parent ]
I'm not sure (4.00 / 5)
this argument: "there is no evidence to indicate that the voters who did not turnout to vote favored one candidate more than another" makes much sense.

The question isn't whether the sequence events supressed one set on candidate supporters more than another.  Rather, the question is whether a campaign, plus knowledge that the election would count, would have shifted the result.

Frankly, I don't see how it is possible to rule out that Obama would have performed significantly better had he been able to campaign in Florida. In fact, it seems more likely to be true than not given how he has turned around initial polling in essentially every single state during this campaign.

If the folks in Washington were told their votes didn't matter back in October, there would not have been the extraordinary amount of organizing I saw first hand from enthusiastic Obama volunteers. Add to that a lack of campaigning, and the result of the election would have been far closer to the 20 point lead Clinton had back in October than to the 68-32 blowout Obama just won.

There is nothing legitimate whatsoever about the "results" in Florida. They might as well have just allocated delegates based on telephone calls polls from the week before.


turnout (0.00 / 0)
Chris' own arguments come back to haunt him: "Florida is one of only four states so far in 2008 to have lower Democratic turnout than Republican turnout (Michigan, Utah and Arizona are the other three). "

Let's see, Utah is overwhelmingly Republican with a Republican contest that was a forgone conclusion (unless you think that the question of whether Mitt's totals would be in the high 80s or low 90s made it a race), and Arizona had a favorite son to vote for on the GOP side.  That leaves the two states that the DNC punished-- Michigan and Florida-- as half of the lower Democratic turnout states.  

Clearly, many people did stay home because they were told by the local media and party bosses that the meanies at the DNC wouldn't count their vote.  Moreover, Hillary voiced support for Florida counting shortly before their primary--and got the support/news of Sen. Nelson's endorsement because of it.  

Awarding delegates based on Florida's results on the 29th distorts what likely would have happened (i.e. Obama would have closed the gap somewhat ala CA and NJ) had there been a real campaign.  

I don't think it is necessarily fair to give Obama all of Edwards'/Uncommitted's delegates from MI and FL either.  

Only Al Gore has the credibility to settle this one, and not the credentials committee, should the race drag on past PA.  

Truth over balance, progress over ideology


[ Parent ]
This strikes me as slightly disingenuous (0.00 / 0)
It's clear from election performance that Obama performs markedly better in states once he has had a chance to campaign in them. And for us political junkies, it may not mean much to see a candidate in-person; for the average American, though, it means a hell of a lot more. Retail politicking is a much different ballgame than mass media politics.

While it's hard to say what would have happened, it's become evidently clear that Clinton's lead in the polls was largely built upon name recognition only. Once they campaign in the same states, Obama always comes out better than when he went in.


Except for "disingenuous" (0.00 / 0)
I agree completely.  The fact that one candidate is helped more than the other by extensive campaigning has to be part of the argument, I would think.

[ Parent ]
disingenuous (4.00 / 3)
so, you think I am not saying what I really believe in this piece, or what I know to be false? That strikes me as slightly offensive.  

[ Parent ]
Florida is way too big (4.00 / 1)
For retail politics to make much difference.  Giuliani spent 6 months there and what did it get him?

That was the whole (wrong IMO) defence of why Iowa and NH are so ideal to go first, that they're small enough that a little guy candidate can ascend to the national stage by winning an upset there by shaking enough hands and kissing enough babies.

Also, lots of people who are not clinton fans have said she is very likeable in person, and surprisingly warm compared to her TV persona.  Kos remarked on this after meeting her.  So it's also possible she would have increased her margin by retail politics.

Anyway, it's way to "what if" speculative to be a good argument for a revote.  What if Obama fell flat on his face in Florida?  What if the time he spent there meant he lost a couple other Super Tuesday states that provided his margin of draw/victory?  McCain winning florida crushed Romney and he never recovered, and that was with the RNC's "half the delegates" punishment.  Florida still proved decisive on the Republican side.

There's simply no way to know, and the evidence we do have points to a Clinton win of Florida whether it had delegates or not.    


[ Parent ]
I agree, for slightly different reasons (0.00 / 0)
FL needs to have their pledged delegates seated.  Because the democratic party cannot afford to have any florida voters think that their vote was thrown away.

The supers from FL/MI should be barred from attending the convention.  I think that will be sufficient penalty to prevent rules violations in the future - because the people who violated the rules are the supers.

My best case scenario.  Seat pledged delegates from MI/FL.  Bar all supers from MI/FL.  Give half of the uncommitted MI delegates to Obama.

And finally, have Obama lead by enough pledged delegates that even if no uncommitted MI went to him he would still lead.

This scenario leaves every voter in one of two positions:
- every vote for Clinton was included but it wasn't enough to overcome Obama's lead
- some votes for Obama were not included but he won anyway

I think having Obama widen his lead to where this scenario can play out gives us the best hope of having a nominee that is universally accepted as legitimate.

And in the end, that's the key thing for me.  I was a Edwards supporter and now support Obama, but if there was a strategy for Hillary to be universally accepted as legitimate that would be fine with me as well.


Lockout the Florida supers (0.00 / 0)
I'm interested in this if we don't get a revote.

[ Parent ]
Speaking as a Florida voter... (4.00 / 1)
I think the only truly fair thing to do (and the only way a Clinton candidacy made possible by the inclusion of the Florida delegates would have any legitimacy) would be for the state party to hold a caucus if the winner isn't clear in mid- to late- March or April. Clinton's own supporters have said she has to blow out Ohio and Texas (although a blowout in one would suffice to carry her through to Penn.) to remain viable. If that happens, the Florida Democratic party, the DNC and the campaigns should organize a caucus (goodness knows they have enough money). There is no reason for  Clinton to oppose this. If her win in Florida was legitimate (i.e. people voted for her because they agree with her positions) she will win again. If she won because Obama did not campaign and she thus had better name recognition, than the delegates will be apportioned based on who Florida voters actually want, rather than whose name they recognize.
The loser here is clearly the DNC, and I suppose that this is ultimately good (it shows what fealty to a ridiculously outdated and arbitrary primary system gets you).Clinton only championed the Florida delegation once it became clear she was going to lose South Carolina. She waited until the primaries she made a promise to were over. That is shocking cowardice and confirms the worst things everyone ever said about the Clinton's (they'll win no matter what, the rules be damned).
But it cannot be said enough; if the Florida delegation, which flagrantly broke the rules (however ridiculous they may have been) is seated at the convention, and ends up swinging the nomination to Clinton, don't expect anything less than open revolt from the other delegations, who played by the rules. Hillary Clinton needs to win fairly, or not at all.

Hmmm? (0.00 / 0)
I'm not buying this on several levels.  Much like polling, or any other data gathering, when the process becomes so confounded you do not need to get into anyones head to know that the data is unreliable.  It does not matter which way it might be skewed, or even that it possibly might not be skewed.  You always throw out bad data. No way around it that is what both Michigan and Florida are.  Bad data.

And exactly why is Michigan another matter?  How is not getting your name on the ballot any different than not getting to the polls.  The candidates that did not file where following the spirit of what was being asked of them.  So lets go ahead and reward the one candidate who did not go as far as others in supporting the will of the party.

The integrity of the voting system is hugely important.  Seating these delegates brings that into question even more than casting them out does.  


There is no integrity left in our voting system (4.00 / 3)
Caucuses, delegates, super-delegates, electoral college, black box voting, voter rolls, etc.

This is but a tiny corner of a huge problem.


[ Parent ]
Michegan (0.00 / 0)
I think it is reasonable to believe that a significant chunk of voters would not go to the polls when they know the candidate they prefer (Edwards or Obama) is not on the ballot.

That creates a skew where more Clinton voters are going to be inclined to show up, and for undecided voters, a statistically greater likelihood they'll pick her (as she and gravel are the only names on the MI ballot I believe).

It may still be right to seat MI's delegation because one can argue Obama and Edwards chose to remove their names, and perhaps avoid the media narrative of losing the state, but at least I can see the argument behind saying MI's result is not very fair.


[ Parent ]
Your second point does not stand (0.00 / 0)
The polling results reflect voter preference knowing the current situation (that their delegates won't count). You can argue that the polls were an accurate reflection of the outcome given the situation. You can argue that both the polls and the vote were skewed by the situation or that neither were skewed by the situation. But you can't say, "Because the polls weren't wrong, that indicates that the vote wasn't skewed."

Does that make sense?


I don't follow (0.00 / 0)
Why would your preference change based on whether or not your state's primary would count?  You still prefer one candidate or another.  

Yes there are reasons people lie to pollsters, but the motive here doesn't line up.  Hiding personal racism via the Bradley effect is at least plausible.  


[ Parent ]
Why is Michigan different? (0.00 / 0)
There were multiple candidates on the ballot, and their primary produced actual results that can be measured in delegates. Your argument is in no way based on the Obama campaign choosing to stay on the ballot in Florida -- so why should Michigan's results be invalid?

I actually think neither should be counted: these are states that bet they could have more influence by going early (since the nominee is almost always in place by Super Tuesday) -- influence that they were completely willing to trade for their delegates.

We don't have an election system where the tenor of media coverage is divorced from the results of elections: the media is something that is the object of strategy, timing, and careful relationship building (just like field operations, or a mail program, or ad buys.) The Clinton campaign and the Obama campaign differed in how they approached the two states: Clinton angling to get a media bump from them, Obama trying to keep his absence and blowout loss quiet. Regardless, Florida and Michigan successfully played the roles they sought.

There could have been a meaningful debate about seating those delegates before the primary occurred – which I argued here last month – but now that we know the outcome of the results, we can't have that meaningful debate anymore. Imagine if, in the 2000 election, the Supreme Court was able to actually count the sequestered ballots themselves before declaring a winner. Does that strike you as "more democratic"?  


The primary system is totally broken (4.00 / 1)
   If Florida and Michigan are rewarded for breaking the DNC rules, the primary system will become even more chaotic. We need to change to a rotating schedule, but what incentive will the states have if there's no enforcement?  

There is a Rule! (0.00 / 0)
The (Temporary) Standing Committe on Credentials reports one way, a minority report reports the other way on both MI and FL (four reports).

The delegates previously seated permanently vote to adopt one or the other report on each delegation.

The dispute between the camps is over how the campaign was conducted. The matter of seating some delegates is up to the other delegates. It is a matter of powers, -- the plenary power of the convention -- then values, not rules.

The convention can change the rules. It is the highest authority in the party.

Got that?


::JRBehrman


That is a depressing view (0.00 / 0)
I like to think that we stand for something more than just power.  

[ Parent ]
What voters were told, part XVII (4.00 / 3)
From the Miami Herald 1/27/08

Florida will hold the earliest presidential primary in state history on Jan. 29, triggering full-court campaigns by the Republican candidates and a full-on boycott by the Democratic field. Some voters are understandably confused, so here are some answers to common questions about the primary.

Why is Florida voting on the last Tuesday in January instead of the traditional second Tuesday in March? State lawmakers changed the date to increase Florida's influence in picking the nominees. ...
....
Why are voters seeing such a one-sided campaign in Florida? The Republican candidates have been campaigning and running television commercials, but there's no sign of the Democratic candidates. The major Democratic candidates pledged not to make public appearances or run any advertising in Florida because the early primary date violates national party rules. The Democratic National Committee made Florida forfeit all of its delegates to the nominating convention.
....
So does this mean Democratic votes won't count? Yes and no. More than one million people are expected to go to the polls. The results will be tallied and reported by the national media. The top Florida vote-getter could have an advantage going into the pivotal contests one week later in roughly 20 states around the country.

However, the results will not translate into delegates to the nominating convention. So on paper, Florida's results won't put the top vote-getter any closer to the nomination.

http://www.miamiherald.com/540...

John McCain doesn't care about Vets.



Coda: Florida Amendment #1 (0.00 / 0)
One thing I rarely see discussed when talking about the Florida  Democratic primary is the other item on the ballot, Florida Amendment #1, which doubled the property tax exemption for homeowners in FL and made it portable (you keep it when you move withing FL). I'm a Florida voter and my mindset when going to the vote was A) the Amendment #1 vote is valid, B) the primary has no delegates per the DNC sanction as upheld by a federal court, and C) I'm voting for Obama just in case.

As Florida columnist Mark Lane wrote,

"Political blogs are already abuzz with speculation that the Clinton camp will try to seat banned Florida and Michigan delegates, throw in some super delegates and win the nomination without needing to win the final primaries.

And I enjoy contemplating the slender possibility that seating Florida's delegation could turn into an old-fashioned, backroom-slug-out, convention-floor fight.

It would cement our reputation as the state that is a danger to the orderly workings of the republic."

I'm not sure why the other 48 state delegations are going to be eager to endorse the actions of a state that is a "danger to the orderly workings of the republic" because they value fairness more than say...Florida.  

John McCain


On Punishment (0.00 / 0)
Also, the DNC's punishment has achieved its goal, as Florida has been denied a major role in the horserace to date.

You're kidding, right? Here's what Hilary Clinton had to say yesterday, quoted by the Washington Post, without qualification or comment:

We had a great night on Super Tuesday; I'm still ahead in popular votes . . ..


The problem is that all of the current candidates agreed MI and FL would not count (4.00 / 3)
Chris-

The problem is more the changing of the rules after the game has been played.  In law, it is called estoppel--once you take a certain position and obtain a benefit, you cannot thereafter be heard to deny such position.  In this case, all candidates agreed that MI and FL would get no delegates, if those states insisted upon cutting in line.  Indeed, all of the candidates made pledges that were intended to curry favor with voters in IA and NH.  Hillary was one of those candidates, but after reaping the benefit of her pledge from NH voters, she suddenly advocates that MI and FL should count after all.  Is there any doubt, given the view of NH voters that it is their god-given right to be "first in the nation," that had Hillary advocated before the votes were cast in NH that MI and FL should count, she would not have won NH.  And I think we all know where her candidacy would be now if she had not won NH.  It all just strikes me as though she (and her advocates and supporters) want their cake and to eat it, too.  In addition, it would set a horrible precedent, as no state will ever take the rules seriously if MI and FL can get away with having flouted them this year.  I'm all in favor of finding some way to allow MI and FL to get back their delegates, either through a new primary or a caucus (which ironically could give them the final say in the nomination, if matters remain essentially tied), but the original votes are just too tainted.

Darberic


While... (0.00 / 0)
While the Florida count is a real result (as opposed to Michigan, which is worthless), I think it's difficult to plausibly argue that it doesn't have a much larger margin of error in terms of measuring voter preference as a fully contested primary that is understood from the start to produce real results.

Primaries and caucuses are nothing but measuring tools, after all.  They ostensibly measure a rather nebulous concept called "the will of the people".  As measuring tools, they unfortunately all have margins of error.  Unlike polling, their standard margins of error tend to involve systemic issues (poor message communication, identity politics, sleaze machines...) rather than insufficient sample sizes.

On a systemic level, the Florida primary obviously has more sources of error than the "real" primaries in other states.  Now, some level of the preferences expressed in it would no doubt hold up, but given how much races can be swung over the course of active campaigning I think that it's nearly impossible to figure out how inaccurate the Florida result was - aside from a relative assessment that it was less accurate than the other primaries.

As such, I think there are real issues with seating the full Florida delegation in a situation where it would change the overall pledged result by only a small amount.

As an example, let's suppose that the actual FL result in a net 30 delegate shift for Hillary.

I think there's a BIG difference between seating Florida if Obama has a 1 pledged delegate lead and a 29 pledged delegate lead.  

In the first case, even taking the margin of error in Florida into account, it would likely have swung to Hillary by enough to overcome that 1 delegate margin.

In the second, we have a very ambiguous case where the lack of campaigning and expectation that the contest wouldn't count on their own could easily have caused enough error to turn the entire result.

I want this not to matter at all.  The first hope is that Obama builds up enough of a lead to render it irrelevant (I don't honestly think that Hillary has any chance to take the pledged delegate lead anymore.)   The second is that if that doesn't occur, new contests are held.  While FL may be more legitimate than Michigan, it isn't legitimate enough that I'd be comfortable with it deciding the nomination.


Florida's delegates will not count (4.00 / 1)
I hope we will not have a close enough delegate margin to make this count.

Florida's (and Michigan's) delegates will not be allowed to shift the final nominee.  Whoever wins the pledged delegates (without FL and MI's rule-breaking delegations) will be the nominee.

Even if FL and MI had gone entirely to Obama, Clinton would take the nomination with a majority of pledged delegates. Superdelegates are party insiders who strongly prefer Clinton as insiders are wont to do for their own careerist goals.  They will give the race to Clinton if they plausibly can.

But if Obama wins the pledged delegates, even by one single delegate, then the nominee will be Obama.  Convention delegates won't riot and they probably won't walk out in significant numbers.  But Obama has the best single voting bloc in the country fully behind him and they will walk out of the party if they are obviously cheated.

African American voters are legendarily jealous of their franchise (and rightly so).  If Obama is cheated African American voters will not back Clinton strongly enough for her to have any chance to win in November.  It is a question of values to say Obama will be cheated if pledged delegates are not enough to nominate him.  And African Americans have seen enough times when  the rules were changed exactly when a black man learned how to win to know what happened.  No arguments over higher democracy in Florida will supercede that.

There will be eight digits of Republican 527 money to spread the message, Cynthia McKinney will be on the ballot for the Green party, and McCain might even choose Condoleeza for veep.  Losing even one fifth of the African American vote will lose MI, OH, VA, MO, PA, and FL for certain in November and there just isn't a map for Clinton that gets to 270 after that.

So the only thing that will determine this nomination is pledged delegates.  


FOOL'S GAME (0.00 / 0)
Chris Bowers wrote '...it is a fool's game to try and enter the heads of voters, and assume that most of them thought their votes would not count.' Wow, I guess I'm most certainly a fool. The DNC said the vote wouldn't count and the candidates agreed not to campaign there. But this should not have influenced the voters?  Chris, you certainly have a mind set that I can't understand. Agreed, we can't conclude which voters would stay at home, but that is not the point. Again, as pointed out by many readers, you also don't address the consequences of changing the rules. If the Florida primary is now valid, states can do what they like.

If, indeed, states can hold their primaries at any time, the natural consequence of the ensuing chaos would be a single national primary date. This would mean any front runner, like Clinton, would almost automatically be elected, and there would be little direct vetting of candidates like in Iowa and New Hampshire. Instead we would have a media campaign like in California. Changing the rules has serious consequences behond this election. It is irresponsible to suggest changing the rules now.

Finally, I would remind people that Clinton was asked on New Hamphire radio why she didn't remove herself from the Michigan ballot (Edwards and Obama tried to remove themselves from the Florida ballot, but were not allowed). She replied (from my memory), 'why does it matter, the votes won't count anyway.'  


"Bad faith" DNC (0.00 / 0)
Further, the ultimate purpose of the DNC's original decision was not for Florida to be denied a full delegation at the convention, but rather for Florida to have as little impact on the course of the nomination campaign as possible. Specifically, the DNC sought to for Florida to have no impact on either media / momentum narratives, or in the running delegate count.

As they say in the journalism business, "Do you have a source on this?" or is this informed speculation? Actually in the journalism business, you would be expected to have two or three independent sources for an assertion of this magnitude, which is either 1) That the DNC hide the limited intent of its punishment even as it was telling the world it would not seat the delegates, or 2) That the DNC said it but the media didn't report it.  


Some Thoughts (0.00 / 0)
Chris, I am new to this site.  So far I've found the general quality of posts to be very high, including this one.  You have made a regular out of me.  That being said, I must respectfully disagree with you that the FL and MI delegates should be seated at the Democratic Convention.

Your argument that voters in other states are affected by inaccurate media narratives has some merit.  However, the belief that many MI and FL democratic primary voters held, that their delegates would not be seated, was not simply a result of inaccurate or unbalanced media coverage.  The DNC itself has made it seem like these delegates would not be seated, no matter what.  Further, and most importantly, the democratic candidates themselves, including Hillary Clinton, pledged not to campaign in MI and FL.  If democratic primary voters in both of these states basically heard from all major media outlets that their delegates wouldn't be seated, the candidates wouldn't campaign in their states, and Obama and Edwards wouldn't even be on the ballot in Michigan, then why cast a vote?  I understand there may be a technical way to seat these delegates, or that a political insider might have seen this coming all along, but ordinary people wouldn't have known that.  This is why we make voting as easy as possible for people.

At any rate, even assuming arguendo that people in MI and FL should have known that their delegates would be seated, the fact is many, many people did not, and if you had polled primary voters in those two states on the day of the primary, almost none of them would have said that their delegates were being seated.  This broadly held belief has created a widespread sense that the results of the presidential primary vote in these states is not a valid expression of the will of the people.  What we have to deal with now is this political reality, not just in MI and FL, but in the rest of the country as well.  Perhaps you're right, and a whole country full of Democrats should have known better.  But we didn't, and now most of us are under the impression that the DNC would be changing the rules by seating these delegates.  If that happens AND it swings the election from Obama to Hillary, there will be an absolute mutiny from at least half of the party base.  It will not only lead to a McCain presidency, it will kill Democrats all the way down the ticket, as many Obama Dems will either stay home or turn out to cast a spiteful vote for Republicans and third party candidates.  This should be a great year for Democrats - we absolutely cannot jeopardize gaining ground at all levels of government by engaging in anything that will piss off a big chunk of the base.

The bottom line here is that once a widely-held perception is created, it becomes reality, even if it was created mistakenly(which I don't think it was).  It is that reality  we must deal with now - that the vast majority of Democrats expect that the MI and FL delegates will not be seated.  Frankly, even though you're right about the technicalities of the credentials committee, most people just don't give a hoot about that stuff.  

This is not to say that your post was not very interesting and illuminating to a political junkie like me - it certainly was.  But I think if these delegates got seated, the nomination was swung from Obama to Hillary, and the party base went into full revolt, you would probably change your mind on this issue.


florida should have a caucus (4.00 / 2)
Chris:
I am a democratic delegate from Ft Lauderdale and I am telling you first hand - the primary should NOT count.
Was not a fair "fight" with no campaigning allowed.

Factor in over 1 million early voters and if you look at the results from Broward (my county) and Palm Beach - those two counties alone provided HUGE margins for Senator Clinton - and I can factually tell you why this would not be the same if campaigning was allowed:
(a) mostly elderly - mostly jewish - voting population (inc my mother!) who vote early (and ALWAYS vote) from these counties
(b) smear campaign in jewish community against Sen Obama - and with no campaigning in Florida no chance to address
(not just the muslim smear - stuff from israel newspapers and jewish organizations - now refuted)
Not saying this came from any campaign - but was intense and constant for weeks
(c) Rep Robert Wexler (aka "god" to this voter base) is Obama co chair in Florida and NONE of these people knew that (this alone changed my mothers mind - albeit too late)
(d) Kennedy endorsement Jan 28th (over 1 million early voters and early voting started Dec 29th - Iowa caucus was Jan 3rd!)
(e) the two major newspapers in the area both endorsed Sen Obama - the week before the primary
(f) many younger voters did not vote as DNC was not certifying election -- know this from my daughters democratic club at school and evident when looking at results from counties with large colleges (Obama won where UF is but slight margin and not where other major colleges are)
(g) turnout was less proportionately to other states and even with that was HIGH as there was an amendment to Fl Constructtion to lower property taxes on ballot - that accounted for larger than usual turnout (so that was the inflation and even with that was lower than would have been if the pres primary was valid)
(h) Sen Clinton was in Florida for "fund raising" (although $1 was enough) the weekend before the primary (left SC to some to Fl)
(i) "Friends for Hillary" targeted these voters actively and "invited" them to the "celebration" party -- everything kicked in BIG time as SC was looking bad for Clinton campaign

and yes, obviously, I am an Obama supporter and no, there were no Obama TV commercials in Florida - there were some cable commercials on MSNBC and CNN as part of Natl ad buy and the proof of that is that these commercials ran until Feb 5th and Fl primary was Jan 29th--

I think Sen Clinton would prevail again in Florida - but the vote should be fair --

Have lots more info if you need further convincing
An April caucus would do a few things:
(1) as caucuses have to be paid by the party and not the state would serve the hubris of the Fl party chair and her cohorts - to have to pay (you know that after the DNC told them not to move the date - the state part went to court and lost and still moved the date)
(2) in April of this particular election year - Florida's voice really would matter and really would be heard

Plenty of states had their democratic and republican primary on different days so there was no reason the Dem primary had to be Jan 29th (plus this would have helped defeat Gov Crist's sham amendment - which passed)

As a woman I am telling you there is a female cabal down here pushing this agenda and it starts with the head of the State Dem Party --

Democracy in action --


Blame (0.00 / 0)
...it is difficult for the Obama campaign to develop a compelling enough reason to piss off such a huge swing state.

Why would Florida Democrats hold Obama responsible if the DNC follows through on what it said it was going to do?


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