Politico Misses The Point On Pledged Delegates

by: Chris Bowers

Tue Feb 19, 2008 at 10:18


( - promoted by Chris Bowers)

Going after pledged delegates at the convention? Bah! That is not the real story on pledged delegates today. Instead, as I explain in the extended entry, at least the Clinton campaign (but probably both campaigns) currently have organizers targeting pledged delegates in states where a caucus or primary has already taken place. In many states, the delegate selection process is multi-tiered and does not end after the first caucus or even once the primary polls have closed. In those states, the Clinton campaign still has organizers working on the delegate selection process, not just on the delegates themselves. Although they refused to comment on the matter, the Obama campaign would be wise to do the same.

Story in the extended entry.

Chris Bowers :: Politico Misses The Point On Pledged Delegates
So, the Politico has a supposedly breaking story about the Clinton campaign going after pledged delegates if the count is still close following the April 22nd Pennsylvania primary. From the story:

Pledged delegates are not really pledged at all, not even on the first ballot. This has been an open secret in the party for years, but it has never really mattered because there has almost always been a clear victor by the time the convention convened.

But not this time. This time, one candidate may enter the convention leading by just a few pledged delegates, and those delegates may find themselves being promised the sun, moon and stars to switch sides.

"I swear it is not happening now, but as we get closer to the convention, if it is a stalemate, everybody will be going after everybody's delegates," a senior Clinton official told me Monday afternoon. "All the rules will be going out the window."

Big whoop. All this story tells us are two things anyone closely following the campaign already knew. First, as I have pointed out on Open Left several times, "pledged" delegates are not really pledged, and are probably more accurately called "elected." Second, if the campaign is undecided heading into the convention both campaigns will lobby these delegates hard to change their minds. No shock there. Anyone who watched the West Wing saw exactly that in the penultimate season finale a couple years ago. It is also exactly what happened at the last brokered convention in 1976:

Although Ford had won more primary delegates than Reagan, as well as plurality in popular vote, he did not have enough to secure the nomination, and as the convention opened both candidates were seen as having a chance to win. Because of this, both Ford and Reagan arrived in Kansas City before the convention opened to woo the remaining uncommitted delegates in an effort to secure the nomination. Reagan benefited from his highly committed delegates, notably "Reagan's Raiders" of the Texas delegation. They and other conservative Western and Southern delegates particularly faulted the Ford Administration's foreign policy of détente towards the Soviet Union, criticizing his signing of the Helsinki Accords and indirectly blaming him for the April 1975 Fall of Saigon. The pro-Reagan Texas delegates worked hard to persuade delegates from other states to support Reagan. Ford, meanwhile, used all of the perks and patronage of the Presidency to win over wavering delegates, including trips aboard Air Force One and personal meetings with the President himself.

There is nothing new in the Politico story. It is a simple fact of politics and process that campaigns will begin to directly lobby delegates once it becomes clear we are going all the way to the convention. Any campaign that did not do just that would be caught flat-footed at a brokered convention, and be in real trouble.

However, let me break a much more salient point about delegates that was first suggested here on Open Left back on Sunday. Many states, including primary states, have multi-tiered delegate selection processes that continue past the first caucus or voting that has already taken place. In these states, it is entirely possible for pledged, or "elected," delegates to change hands after the fact without any lobbying or promises of the sun, the moon and the stars. The most prominent of these is Iowa, where the Clinton and Obama campaigns will compete for the 14 Edwards delegates at the county conventions on March 15th. However, the voters will not even have the final say in who becomes a delegate even in a primary state like Pennsylvania (emphasis mine):

Hillary Clinton's presidential campaign failed to file a full slate of convention delegate candidates for Pennsylvania's April 22 primary.(...)

It appears Clinton came up 10 or 11 candidates short across a number of congressional districts, including two in Philadelphia.

That's close to 10 percent of the 103 delegates to be decided by voters.

It appears the shortage would've been double that if Rendell hadn't extended last week's candidate filing deadline by a day and a half, ostensibly due to bad weather.(...)

But Clinton's faux pas is more of an image problem than a practical one.

Under Democratic Party rules (and does any organization on the planet have more rules or more complex rules?) a presidential candidate winning in a congressional district gets delegates from that district (assigned at a later date) whether he or she files slates delegates or not.

Do you catch that? The delegates are assigned at a later date, and not directly by the voters. This is the case not only in Pennsylvania, but in many other states and jurisdictions around the country. Because of this, I put a question into both the Obama and Clinton campaigns to see if they had organizers still working on the process in states with multi-tiered delegate process. The Clinton campaign confirmed to me that yes, they do in fact still have organizers in states with multi-tiered delegate selection processes, even if those states have already held primaries or caucuses. The Obama campaign declined to comment, but indicated that information on the subject would be available to the public later this week. Still, despite their lack of comment, I would be stunned if they were not organizing in these multi-tiered states while the Clinton campaign continued to do so.

So, there is a real pledged delegate story for you. Of course the campaigns will target pledged delegates in the event of a brokered convention. What is more interesting is that the Clinton campaign, and probably both campaigns, are still competing over pledged delegates in a number of states that have already held primaries or caucuses because the actual delegates themselves have not been selected yet. So, if the campaign continues to grind forward, get ready to start watching county, district and state party conventions where the delegate selection process will continue even after the first votes or delegates are counted. Our return to a 19th century political process continues.  


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an example (4.00 / 1)
But I think in the Pennsylvania context you mention, the delegates -- in the sense of what person it is -- is chosen later but the delegates "belong" to the campaign.  I was curious about this when Edwards failed to file a full slate in NJ.  Here are the NJ rules, which seem to reflect national rules, from njdems.org:

If a presidential candidate has qualified to receive delegates or alternates but has failed to slate a
sufficient number of delegate or alternate candidates, a special post-primary caucus shall occur at
5:00pm on March 12, 2008, which is prior to the selection of un-pledged add-on delegates. At
this caucus, the special district-level delegates and alternates shall be selected by a caucus of
persons from the same delegate district of the Democratic State Committee who sign statements
of support for the same presidential candidate.
Persons wishing to be considered for such
positions must file a Statement of Candidacy form with the New Jersey Democratic Party no
later than 5:00pm on March 6, 2008. (Rule 13.C)

Presidential candidates will return a list of 3 names for every delegate position to which they
are entitled no later than March 7, 2008. The Chairman of the New Jersey Democratic Party
will certify and forward a list of those selected through the special post-primary caucus to the
presidential candidate no later than (3) days. The presidential candidate will have a right of
review period for post-primary caucus selected delegates and alternates.
Upon the end of such
period, the presidential candidate shall submit the final list of names to the Chairman of the
New Jersey Democratic Party. (Rule 13.C)

Certainly it requires some organization, but it's not totally up in the air.

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


Depends on who becomes the delegate (4.00 / 2)
The rules vary from state to state. In some states, changes will not be possible. It is even possible that changes are not really conceivable in Pennsylvania. However, the campaigns do not always get to choose the delegates, as your New Jersey example indicates. I don't know the breakdown of exactly which states have delegates that are not chosen directly by the campaign, but it would be worth research (and also very difficult tor research).  

[ Parent ]
right (4.00 / 1)
HEre is rule 13.c from the national Delegate Selection rules:

A presidential candidate or his/her authorized representative(s) should act in good faith to slate delegate and alternate candidates, however, in any event, if a presidential candidate (including uncommitted status) has qualified to receive delegates and alternates but has failed to slate a sufficient number of delegate and alternate candidates, then additional delegates and alternates for that preference will be selected in a special post-primary procedure. The State Party will administer special post-primary procedures according to rules approved by the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee and such procedures should be set forth in the state's delegate selection plan, where applicable.

So in theory, the national party requires the delegates to reflect the preference, but of course who knows what can happen.  

ps.  I was amused by Rule 13.H, which has obvious relevance to Florida and Michigan (though perhaps written for Washington's event today):

For the purpose of fairly reflecting the division of preferences, the non-binding advisory presidential preference portion of primaries shall not be considered a step in the delegate selection process and is considered detrimental. State parties must take steps to educate the public that a 2008 Delegate Selection Rules for the Democratic National Convention non-binding presidential preference event is meaningless, and state parties and presidential candidates should take all steps possible not to participate.


New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.

[ Parent ]
Depite all this minutiae (0.00 / 0)
it seems to me that any significant deviation in final count from the popularly elected count as it is now would throw the party into divisive turmoil. it also remains interesting that the situation continues to be debated and hashed over because of the Clinton campaign's eagerness to exploit the situation to their benefit in direct defiance of voters. This discussion would not be happening if Clinton were in the lead, and it will become moot if she happens to take the lead in the popular selected count, because the party insiders would de-facto rally behind her. The whole thing is archaic, and that the popularly selected delegate count is not already agreed to as the determiner for this nomination speaks ill of the party establishment as well as the Clintons.  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

I don't think you understood the process Chris outlined (0.00 / 0)
Iowa supposedly "elected" 16 Obama delgates, 15 clinton delegates, 14 Edwards delelgates on Jan 3rd.

owever there are 2 further conventions. The county one, date in March, in which the delegates sent from each caucus vote and reapportion their votes to selelct delegates to go to the State Convention.

The Edwards delelgates are of course at issue....but since it's like the original cuacuses those delegates pledged at the original caucuses not only do not have to stay with their candidate, but if their candiate is no longer viable they have to choose anothe candidate.....

It is possible to gain additional delegates at each one of those stages.....LEGITIMATELY AND DEMOCRATICALLY.  The Iowa Democratic rules are just like the DNC rules... non binding on delegates even on the fIrst vote.

And of course at almost every step the candidate's campaign has to right to approve or disapprove of the delelgate selelcted at every stage.

In every state only 2/3 of the regular delelgates are chosen per Congressional district.  1/3 are chosen in some other fashion later.  NY has 81 such delegates....and that convention is later in the spring....votes can move....legally, legitmately and democratically.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
although the delegates are non-binding (0.00 / 0)
its not democratic if they are reassigned. just because their are rules that say the delegates can be re-assigned does not make the process democratic or representative of how the people voted.  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
I don't agree (0.00 / 0)
In the Iowa situation, there's a process in which the low-level delegates will choose convention delegates who will vote for Obama or Clinton.  At least we know what they will do once they are chosen.

Under your scenario, the process would select delegates who once supported Edwards, who would then randomly vote for Obama or Clinton, based on how they happen to feel, whether they feel they should do what Edwards says (if anything), a strongly held second choice that is not taken into account, etc.  

I don't see that one is more democratic than the other, but there's something to be said for the first one.

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


[ Parent ]
A Modest Proposal (0.00 / 0)
This may not be the most original observation on this matter, but:

This process is fucking insane.

It stands in relation to actual democracy in about the way that pornography stands to the felt reality of human love.

Could we try to change this, please, before the next election?

(h/t David Foster Wallace)


Democracy is always messy (0.00 / 0)
We have a split electorate here. It's really hard to choose between two pretty equally similar candidates. It comes down to a lot of subjectives and often personal ones at that. And not only that but a huge chunk goes back and forth over time.

Any way this goes we're going to have half the electorate solidly behind their candidate who won and a huge chunk of the losers saying, ok I'm sad but I can certainly live and work for this candidate.

So lets get a grip. This process is very democratic on all four levels. The primaries, the caucuses, the super-whatever-delegates and the looseness of the rules. The only problem is that we have two equally ok candidates that we can't decide upon. We might as well flip a coin. We're taking all kinds of votes and everybody has about an equal shot at getting the money they need. It seems crazy and intense because there is no clear favorite here.  

Jeff Wegerson


[ Parent ]
That'd be one way to go (0.00 / 0)
We might as well flip a coin.

Or we could select our candidate through a straightforward popular vote. Whichever.


[ Parent ]
That's the point (0.00 / 0)
There is no such thing as a "straightforward popular vote". Machines and people screw up, people are conflicted and unsure, messengers garble things and on and on. Often it doesn't matter because the vote isn't close. But when it is then all the issues combine to make things muddy and "un-straightforward". In this case it's not only close but the candidates themselves are very similar.

Jeff Wegerson

[ Parent ]
It's a matter of degrees (4.00 / 1)
Of course there's some margin of error in any election - it's a complex system. See Florida 2000, right? But the margin of error gets waaay bigger when you introduce all these further complexities - pledged delegates switching sides, superdelegates, weird systems of apportionment like in TX.

And by the way: note that all these little wrinkles serve to weaken the say of regular voters in the process. To put it another way: obscurity has a conservative bias. The electoral college, for instance, favors rural, low-population states, and that's part of why GWB is now in office. (In fact, I believe - though I might be wrong - that in every case where a candidate lost the popular vote while winning the electoral college, it was the less progressive candidate who ended up in the White House.) We can see this same phenomenon in the case of the superdelegates: they are a way for party insiders to corral the process to serve their own interests. That is an inherently pro-establishment bias. Defend this if you want, but don't say it is a more democratic system than a straightforward popular vote, however imperfect the latter may be.


[ Parent ]
Liberal Bias (0.00 / 0)
To put it another way: obscurity has a conservative bias.

That's one way of putting it.

Isn't it true instead that openness, like reality, has a liberal bias?  Both openness and reality are just plain unfair to Republicans and their conservative partners in our party.


[ Parent ]
I'm not necessarily in disagreement with you (0.00 / 0)
But I can make the argument that all these different localized systems can be more democratic than the imposition of one single size fits all system. Other than that, yes lots of overlapping systems can introduce an increase in errors. However, honest errors will tend to cancel themselves out.

As for party insiders, many of whom I agree with Chris, are simply ordinary elected folks from various places, really only come into play when elections are close enough. They are more like referees. Yes home team referees can be "unfair", but still.

Jeff Wegerson


[ Parent ]
why would party insiders breaking a tie (0.00 / 0)
be more legitimate than a candidate winning the primary by one vote?  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
When I say (0.00 / 0)
"there's no such thing as a straight-forward polular vote," I'm talking about when you are dealing with a lot of votes. Even at the 10s of thousands level it begins to get un-straight-forward. Now we are talking 10s of millions.

Jeff Wegerson

[ Parent ]
Clinton losing PR campaign (4.00 / 4)
The overarching story is that no matter what the facts are, the Clinton campaign is seriously losing in the PR campaign over the delegates. Of course Obama is also targeting pledged delegates - but the Clinton people are the ones talking about it, so the headlines are in the nature of 'Clinton trying to Steal Delegates'.  It is costing her a lot of good will.

To the extent that public communication management is an important presidential skill, I suppose Clinton deserves to lose because of the misperceptions being caused by her spokespeople.  But it sure is frustrating to her supporters.


No hysteria? (0.00 / 0)
Oh geez, Chris, you are much too calm about this.  I'm going elsewhere for my hysteria.  :)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/...


you completely miss the point (0.00 / 0)
The point is, is in an increasingly conflictual situation, that the Clinton campaign would do anything to fuel this line....sure, technically, from an insiders perspective this is what happens, but to reveal to the media, and fuel the idea that Clinton is out to STEAL obama delegates is very poor judgement and will likely backfire terribly on them today.  Aside from the WI and HI primary, this is will be the news today.  I don't think the Clinton campaign wants to have another day of her being protrayed as unfair, calculating or whatever adjectives may come to mind with what was portrayed in the politico.  You really missed the boat on this one.  Its the impression it creates.  The vast majority of people don't understand nor care about the intricate rules of the democratic convention process.

The Four-Ring Circus (4.00 / 2)
The most important thing for "the movement" to remember about the convention overlay on primary elections -- here called the "19th century political process" -- is that conventions are (a) egalitarian, (b) majoritarian, and (c) sovereign. Moreover, in exchange for giving up a "secret ballot", delegates get a voice in a party that is otherwise suffocated by lawyers and other professional talkers -- negotiators rather than leaders usually.

That means there are four, not just two, competitions going on in the Democratic Party:

First, there is high-profile competition between some of potential nominees for what will eventually be -- correct term -- elected delegates to the national convention. And, even that competition features some non-trivial figures in "Kingmaker" roles -- GORE, EDWARDS -- as well as some competition for the VP nomination.

Second, and hardly noticed, there is competition for party offices such as committee member or chair. And, this today features two well-defined national party factions: The "targeted campaign", aka "permanent campaign", faction and the "party-building" faction, which actually includes most of the center-left "blogosphere".

So far, Hillary has aligned herself with the the DLC, the DSCC/DCCC, and most of the hangers-on from Bill's previous campaigns and administrations. That would be the "targeted campaign" faction. This is dragging her down, especially here in Texas, where the cornpone party establishment is aligned with the DLC and the DSCC/DCCC, but discredited by repeated failure of party governance, of party finance, and ... of general election campaigns.    

Now, things like party rules, especially here in Texas, are a kludge that the incumbent party establishment uses to perpetuate itself and, in our case, dominate what little is left of a patronage-chain. This might work here in Texas to Hillary's advantage. But, it might not for these reasons:

The rules tend to break-down and produce chaos that Barack can probably exploit better than Hillary. The party establishment is prone to panic and already looks to be jumping off Hillary's band-wagon, having only jumped on when John Edwards quit.

Actually, the party establishment is really just a very small clique today, and most of the old-hands, like me, are actually aligned with a brace of new hands from the blogosphere, for instance.

We want and Barack will need a "real party" in Texas, not just a cornpone remnant of the old, Jim Crow, party -- a party that only knows how to collaborate with, not stand and compete with, the GOP.

That goes to what Barack OBAMA means by "bi-partisan" or "post-partisan" or whatever. I take it to mean building a broad, popular -- I would say patriotic -- coalition within the Democratic Party. That is what I see going on here today. I think that is necessary if he is not to fall into a pattern of bi-partisan collusion -- a rotten deal-culture where deliberation and strategy should be.

We will certainly see here in Texas. After 4 March, what is called the "coaltion for change" within the Texas Democratic Party and the OBAMA Campaign will have to fight for every delegate all the way to 6 June -- to clinch the nomination but, more importantly, to turn Texas into a "blue state".

That is something the present Democratic Party control clique has not done, not even attempted actually. They have not even developed our "battleground state" potential much less our latent Democratic majority. They were once part of a governing coaltion. But, since 1994, they have just been "out there flapping".

Still, "as Texas goes, so goes the nation". This state is necessary and sufficient for Democratic victory in November. But, popular or progressive -- as I say -- patriotic Democrats in Texas have to win both the nomination and governance battles now underway for there to be a decisive outcome in August or November.

We have to show-up, speak-up, and stand-up in convention. There are powerful new media tools for campaigns. But, there really is not a digital substitute for "19th political process", much less for what that was derived from: the life-changing or life-ending experience of 18th century "black-powder" warfare.

"Civil rights" can trickle-down from a court or, maybe, a legislature. But, "republican democracy" came from a very dangerous battlefield where militia took fire but won decisively by virtue of being egalitarian, majoritarian, and sovereign, unlike mercenaries -- other than Swiss -- of that day.  

::JRBehrman


Great post, great news (0.00 / 0)
And best of luck to y'all.  This is a really good analysis.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
Great Point (0.00 / 0)
The "poaching" story is premature but it does say something about the mindset in Hillaryland.

Almost nothing has been written about the second level delegate selection proceedure.  Funny things can happen at the second level.  It's not just math, it is political human dynamics with a lot of lawyers & donors around.  I sure hope, there's that word again, that the Obama campaign is very active at the second level and does not just leave it to local "pros."  

I really do hope the voters decide the nomination.  The final act of the Primary Season begins tonight in Wisconsin.


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