Absent Edwards, Clinton and Obama Tack Rightward

by: Chris Bowers

Fri Feb 29, 2008 at 14:16


John Edwards received far fewer votes than Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton when he was still in the campaign, but he did at least keep the other two in line on progressive rhetoric. Now, with Edwards gone, either Obama or Clinton or both are tacking right on a whole range of issues: health care, national security, mercenaries, taxes, and who is more bi-partisan, to name a few.  Attacking the other candidate from the right has been a consistent theme from both the Obama and Clinton camps ever since Edwards left the campaign. And, in the general election, expect a right-ward shift on immigration, too:

Titled "Winning The Immigration Debate," the study was put together by the Coalition for Comprehensive Immigration Reform and the Center for American Progress. Its findings, which have been sent to Capitol Hill and have been part of briefing sessions in both the House and the Senate, are based off of polling conducted by Peter Hart Research Associates.

Taken as a whole, the report presents a new prism through which the Democrats should approach the immigration debate. "It is unacceptable to have 12 million people in our country who are outside the system," it reads. "We must require illegal immigrants to become legal, and reform the laws so this can happen."

Polling for the study revealed that a larger swath of the public was supportive of "requiring" undocumented immigrants already in the country to normalize their status than there was for only offering them legalization as an option. In addition, the report pushes Democrats to argue that immigrants should be required to pay taxes, learn English, and pass criminal background checks to remain in the country. Those who have a criminal record should be deported. All of these policies were included in last year's immigration reform compromise legislation, which ultimately failed.

"Our view is that this argument threads the needle in favor of comprehensive reform in the most effective way," Jen Palmieri, communications chief for the Center for American Progress, told the Huffington Post.(...)

"There has been no consensus around the Democratic rhetoric in regard to immigration," said one party official who had knowledge of the report. "But it has usually been framed around opportunity, and it was less framed around this punishment rhetoric. We are going to require these people to become legal or we are going to deport [them]? It doesn't challenge the immigrant scapegoating direction of the conversation. It plays right into it."

In this campaign, neither Obama nor Clinton are making any attempts to transform American political discourse away from its current, conservative dominated conventional wisdom. Instead, they throw conservative jabs at each other about being too partisan, Harry and Louise, national security fearmongering, supposedly raising middle class taxes and, at some point, probably about coddling illegal immigrants (arguably, Clinton was already skewered on that back in late October at the Philly debate). This just is not transformative progressive politics from either camp. Right-wing frames are consistently being employed to attack Democrats.

Russ Feingold, who yesterday I characterized as the one clearly transformative progressive in the U.S. Senate, harshly criticized John Edwards for talking like a tough, transformative progressive, but not standing up to fight like one in the Senate. While that is a reasonable criticism of John Edwards, at least he was talking like a transformative progressive. In the current debate, I feel as though we are getting neither the talk nor the walk. Instead, apart from a few comments about NAFTA (which are bogus), mandates (when neither health care plan offers much of a progressive solution), and the AUMF vote on Iraq (which, while important, was also in the past), pretty much all we get are Clinton and Obama attacking each other from the right while reinforcing right-wing frames. It really sucks.

Even though I live in Pennsylvania, I kind of want the primary campaign to end on March 4th, mainly because I am sick of the right-wing jabs Obama and Clinton are throwing at each other, and because I'm tired of the Clinton campaign's long litany of states and voters that don't matter. However, maybe it is better that the primary continues on for another seven weeks, because otherwise the nominee might just shift even harder and faster to the right. At least during a Democratic primary there is the hope of having a progressive influence on Obama and Clinton. If the direction of the post-Edwards campaign has shown us anything, it is that progressives will probably have no leverage on Obama and Clinton whatsoever once the general election campaign begins. Once they feel they don't need us anymore, this campaign could get really right-wing and ugly, fast.

Update: To clarify, my thesis is that right-wing attacks in the nomination campaign have outnumbered left-wing attacks since Edwards dropped out, while left-wing attacks in the nomination campaign outnumbered right-wing attacks while Edwards was still around (he dropped out on January 30th). I also believe that there is a good chance this trend will only grow worse over time.  

Chris Bowers :: Absent Edwards, Clinton and Obama Tack Rightward

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this is why Ralpha Nader (4.00 / 1)
being prominent in the race is a good thing. He can call the candidates out when they veer right.

Edwards could also step it up and say a thing or two. However he's prolly going to keep mum to angle for a good role in their administration. Its a reasonable thing to do, if frustrating.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


Nader's incompetent (0.00 / 0)
Is is far too incompetent at electoral campaigns to pull that off. Leaving all other criticisms of Nader aside for the moment, the simple fact is that his attempt to influence the political debate completely failed. His strategy did not work in 1996, 2000 or 2004. He just didn't win enough votes and support to make a difference.

Kucinich has won way more national votes than Nader since 2004.  Nader's influence on the debate is much lower than that of Kucinich.  


[ Parent ]
does he have to win votes to be influential (0.00 / 0)
or is it enough to have him on tv talking about progressive issues and keeping them in the spotlight, or highlighting to progressive voters what they may not be aware of the candidates saying. which might not influence the votes they get, it might be enough to keep the issues hot and make candidates nervous enough not to veer to far right.

Your point about past elections is well taken. However it seems like you are sort of arguing that he is not effect just because he didn't win votes in 2004. That's sort of like saying DKos was not influential in 2004 because Kerry was still a pro war candidate.

If Nader's presence on TV were causing harm to progressive goals (which has been an argument used by Markos on Kucinich) that would be an argument against him, otherwise the more voices the better. No?

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
Nader and media (4.00 / 1)
when is Nader on TV discussing his issues? He is pretty bad at getting media. Might now hear much of anything from him after this week. Also, he actually isn't a very effective public speaker. On the rare occasions when he does get media, I don't think he is able to make much of it.  

[ Parent ]
agreed (0.00 / 0)
I agree that is the test, making the most of your media. I will watch closer this cycle to see if he makes anything of it. His "announcing" is clearly to me a move to get on TV, which I think is smart and good, and good for progressive issues. I'm with you on where he goes from here is the important part. Perhaps I am too hopeful, I'm willing to change my perspective on it. You should check out that movie about him, the video from the parking lot at the Democratic Debate in 2000 should be must see tv for all Dem Party reformers. I think that was a brilliant way in which he brought a problem to light, and I don't think in that case he even expected too.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
Nader is not a Democratic Party reformer (0.00 / 0)
He just isn't. He has less influence on the direction Democratic Party than I do. The only lesson I learned on reforming the Democratic Party from following him in the 1990's  is that what he was doing wasn't working, and was even self-defeating. Howard Dean and Russ Feingold are two leaders who have been far more effective, and demonstrated a better path.  

[ Parent ]
Nader - not very effective as a public speaker? (0.00 / 0)
At least he answered Russert convincingly about the bromide that liberals and some democrats still mindlessly repeat - that Nader is responsible for Bush.

Nader reminded Russert about the 250,000 democrats who voted for Bush.
He reminded Russert about little things like Katherine Harris and the incredible act of the Supreme Court in stopping the vote count.

He reminded Russert that Gore had squandered an enormous lead against a nobody and didn't even carry Tennessee.


[ Parent ]
"probably about coddling illegal immigrants" (0.00 / 0)
Can we at least stick with talking about what has happened, rather than what might theoretically happen?  I mean, they might start going after each other for believing climate change is a problem, or for wanting to repeal don't ask don't tell.... who knows...      

Clinton was already attacked on those grounds (0.00 / 0)
Back in the Philadelphia debate on October 30th, which is already viewed as a turning point in the campaign, Clinton's big "slip-up" was supposedly that she wanted to give driver's licenses to illegal immigrants. So, there is precedent for this  sort of attack in the campaign.

[ Parent ]
except that Obama was to the left of her... (0.00 / 0)
so it is irrelevant to this discussion.  when you start making stuff up about what they might say, it suggests that you are kind of just going through the motions.... it weakens the case.

[ Parent ]
Making stuff up? (0.00 / 0)
I provided five examples of right-wing attacks that either Clinton or Obama has delivered in the past month. Would you suggest that, instead of firing a warning shot and trying to prevent further such attacks on a sixth issue--immigration--that I simply wait until it happens? There are reasons to be worried about such a shift, and once it happens our ability to do anything about it will be limited. If you are purely reactive to such attacks, then we have no hope of stopping them in the future.  

[ Parent ]
Yes, making stuff up. (0.00 / 0)
I don't see it as preemptive.  There is no logical reason to 'preempt' something that you have no reason to think will happen.  If we were to try and 'preempt' everything that a politician might conceivably do, we would get diminishing returns a la 'boy who cried wolf.'  

my point is not that you shouldn't challenge pols (inc., even esp., Obama) for moving to the right; my point is that it weakens the case if you are making stuff up.  that is what you were/are doing, since he has been to the left of Clinton on immigration during the entire campaign, and since Clinton has never attacked him on the issue (bc it would horrible politics for her...).  

i'm surprised this is a controversial point.    


[ Parent ]
What is a logical reason, then? (0.00 / 0)
What classifies as a logical reason to believe that further right-wing attacks on imminent? Does a report from the Center for American Progress, an institution founded largely by Clinton types, that was presented behind closed doors to leading Democrats and urges a right-wing rhetorical shift on immigration count as a reason? If not, why not?  

[ Parent ]
You are mixing and matching. (0.00 / 0)
I said there was no logical reason to preempt something that you had no reason to think was going to happen.  You shifted the conversation to the 'logic' of determining what may happen in the future (w/ respect to immigration).  These are different conversations.

I still say that there is no logical reason to preempt something that you don't have any reason to think will happen.  Preempting in this manner is not logical, because it is counterproductive, as stated above.

In terms of the conversation that you are raising about the CAF report, I think that the GOP nomination battle probably caused a lot of folks who were jittery about immigration to reconsider their advocacy of a rightward tilt.  Romney's attacks on McCain's support for immigration reform didn't get him a whole lot of support.  Since McCain is the GOP nominee, it wouldn't make sense politically for Clinton to swing to the right on immigration, since latino/as might actually vote for McCain.  There is even less reason to think Obama would shift to the right on immigration, considering the way he has approached this issue so far in the campaign, and considering the fact that he too needs to compete with McCain for latino/a votes.

In terms of the broader point: I think that the best way for progressives to 'preempt' rightward shifts is not to say, without reason, that X candidate is likely to shift to the right on X issue, but instead is to build up a counterhegemonic echo-chamber around that issue.  get our talking points out there; change how people think about the issue; mobilize people who care deeply about the issue; etc.  in other words, we can keep our candidates honest by making it clear to them that they will pay a price for dishonesty.      


[ Parent ]
well (0.00 / 0)
Of course it doesn't make sense to start ranting about something that I don't think will happen. The key is that I do think there is a reason to think this will happen. I wouldn't have posted on it if I didn't think there was real cause for concern.

Clearly, we disagree on whether there is sufficient cause for concern on a rightward Democratic shift on immigration rhetoric. I think there is good reason, results of the Republican primary be damned. Many prominent Democrats, including Rahm Emanuel and the Center for American Progress, are urging just such a shift. And that strikes me as cause for concern.

As far as diffusing such a move, and holding Democrats accountable when they make such a move, there are a wide range of tactics that can be used. However, I don't think that staying quiet about it is one of them, and I don't think you believe that either. I think the difference is that you just don't think there is cause for concern on this matter, while I do. And there we are.  


[ Parent ]
No, it's not just that. (0.00 / 0)
I'm also trying to convey a critique of your original post.  When I got to the end of your list of 'attacks from the right,' my initial reaction was: 'wow, he is just going through the motions, here.'  Regardless of whether that was fair or not, it is how I reacted.  

As a general rule, if you are making an argument, and one of your pieces of supporting evidence is a throw-away point (or appears to be a throw-away point), the whole argument is weakened.  It makes it seem like you are more concerned with making a claim, than with whether the claim is true.  

In this case, if you had talked about the CAF report in the post, I might have had a different reaction.  But as it was, it just seemed like you were pulling immigration in from left field, and that any other issue could have filled the slot just as well.  

We do disagree on whether the Dem candidates are likely to move to the right on immigration.  If you are right, and they do, I will be right there with you making noise about it (and I will tip my hat to your predictive abilities).  Until then, though, I think it is probably more effective to make noise in the ways I suggested above (i.e. outside of conversations about the Dem candidates, considering that, so far, there is little if no reason to criticize them on this issue).      


[ Parent ]
Rahm is right (4.00 / 1)
Now only are you going to lose a lot of congressional races on this, but only 23% of the American people were for those disastrous, US Chamber of Commerce written, 600+ pages of wage arbitrage in effect, "comprehensive" immigration bills.

It's in the details that one must understand, not the top layer rhetoric.  

73% of the American people are against illegals for driver's licenses and you have a majority of people in this country so outraged by this they shut down the phone and fax lines of the Senate.  Oregon just changed it's law because in reality, you get massive ID theft, fraud and an underground black market when you do not require proof of legal presence.  Even more ridiculous, anyone who has lived abroad knows perfectly well that not only are other driver's licenses honored in the US (for example, Mexico) there is also a quick, (run down to the AAA and fill out the form, take a quick test) international driver's license that is honored.  You can open up bank accounts, get car insurance, drive legally, take out a car loan, buy a car, all of it with a foreign driver's license, so this argument is ridiculous because you do not need a US driver's license to do all of these things in the US, just as you do not need a Mexican driver's license in Mexico or a European driver's license in Europe and so on.

Some of these positions that are being advocated are so far out there, ignore any realities of immigration law, or having a controlled immigration policy, you get things like the US Chamber of Commerce Corporate written cheap labor lobby agenda being introduced.

It's nuts and if you want a real pathway to citizenship
and so forth, believe me going for these real fringe, not based in any national sovereignty, US nation-state controlled immigration policy (versus the WTO), based on labor economics, reality I'm aware of, positions advocated by these radical "immigrant" advocate groups that often in analysis have an opposite effect on all workers....you're going to get more of the corporate cheap labor lobby agenda in congress.

If you want to get anywhere on this there has to be compromise and the way things are framed now, the only lobbyist group that will win is the corporate cheap labor lobby.  

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
i think that was a little more complex (0.00 / 0)
than suggested here. Clinton really bumbled when she said she was for it and against it back to back. Her hit on that was not that she had a progressive position, but that she is two faced. She suffered so much for it because it was validation of her core weakness.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
Poli Sci 101: solidify the base and move to the center (4.00 / 1)
Its hard to get around the laws democratic politics.

The Politics of Bruno S.


It is even harder (0.00 / 0)
When the nominee doesn't really care about transformative progressive politics.  

[ Parent ]
Chris, you can do better than this. (4.00 / 1)
It really feels like you are going through the motions at this point: if you want to argue that Obama doesn't care about transformative progressive politics, make the case, don't just assert it in a snarky manner.  I think that there is a case to be made, and I also think it is not water-tight (I'm probably not alone in feeling this way... so if you want to move people's opinions, show us, don't tell us).



[ Parent ]
Comeon. Do you really think Edwards was (4.00 / 2)
going provide transformative progressive politics?  He adopted the positions he did that was where he chose to position his campaign.  I don't mean to insult with the above post, but its still more or less a fact of living in two party system.  If you cede the middle, the other side will happily move there--and win.  The key is to sell the transformation.  Obama has the ability to do that better than anyone we've seen recently.  Maybe he will or won't actually do it, but at least there's the option.  

The Politics of Bruno S.


[ Parent ]
No, I don't Edwards would have done so (0.00 / 0)
and I'm not arguing that here. Instead, I'm just arguing that his presence in the campaign tilted its overall rhetorical balance in a more progressive direction.  

[ Parent ]
But (0.00 / 0)
What's true is that there may be more than one way to win the middle. You don't just have to talk like a mealy-mouthed centrist.  

[ Parent ]
dates (4.00 / 1)
Well, the health care link was dated Feb. 1 while Edwards was still in.  Quite honestly, I don't see any switch by Obama since Edwards dropped out and only last-ditch attacks from Clinton as she desperately tries to get something to stick.

Obviously, with Edwards out we see less rhetoric from the left, but what is missing is Edwards himself.

Obama's recently proposed economic plan is liberal; that was post Edwards.  Clinton has shifted "leftwards" on NAFTA post Edwards.  (Quotes because I disagree trade is a left vs right paradigm; see Buchanan, Pat and Dobbs, Lue.)

The Reagan stuff was while Edwards was in.

In other words, I disagree Obama or Clinton has tacked right since Edwards dropped out.  The facts don't support the hypothesis.


Edwards dropped out (0.00 / 0)
On January 30th.

I granted that there were moments they have attacked each other from the left over the past month. I also grant that there are moments when they attacked each other from the right before Edwards dropped out (such as Social Security, for example). However, the thesis is that right-wing attacks have outnumbered left-wing attacks since Edwards dropped out, while left-wing attacks outnumbered right-wing attacks while Edwards was still in the campaign. I think that the facts do support that claim.  


[ Parent ]
Missed by --><-- that much (0.00 / 0)
Good point on the specific date, though I'm fairly certain those pamphlets were in commissioned before Edwards dropped out; those take some time to design and print.

In the case of Obama, he has done a much better job of actually discussing the issues on the stump over the past month or so.  As his position are on the left, this qualifies as moving left from a rhetorical perspective.

It isn't worth going through going through every statement and scientifically looking to see if your thesis is correct, but I'm pretty darn sure you'd be on the losing side of the data.  You've complained plenty about both Clinton and Obama long before Edwards dropped out on just the same issue.

Most people, in fact, have noticed how both Clinton and Obama have tried to take up Edwards' populist rhetoric after he dropped out.  If anything, that is closer to the truth than what you are suggesting.

This isn't to take away anything from Edwards early on.  I do believe he pushed the formally proposed policies of both candidates further to the left than they might have proposed with Edwards out.  (Of course, we'll never really know.)  


[ Parent ]
I see what you're saying, but don't notice a trend (0.00 / 0)
I think Obama was attacking from the right MORE when Edwards was in the race.  That's when the whole mandates explosion began, when he brought up the social security "crisis," and the whole McClurkin fiasco happened.  Lately, I've noticed Obama hitting Clinton from the left more on trade, foreign policy, and now, LGBT issues.  Granted, Obama has been talking bipartisanship, but I don't think that's anything new.  With the trade issue, I'm not sure how much is bluster, and how much is commitment, but at least Obama is bringing it up and hitting Clinton with it from the left.

With Clinton, I think it's fair to say that she's increased her attacks on Obama from the right, particularly on foreign policy.  However, she continues to hammer him from the left on health care and the subprime mortgage crisis.

Edwards in the race definitely gave things a more progressive feel, but in terms of the criticisms leveled between Obama and Clinton, I don't see a big shift to the right since his exit.  Yes, they do criticize each other using right wing framing on a number of issues, but I think that's been consistent throughout the campaign.


[ Parent ]
Hey Chris (0.00 / 0)
Welcome to Democratic Presidential politics.

It's not exactly like this is some new development or something.

It's why progressivism must always be more than simply electoral politics.  In my opinion, electoral politics are a rather small part of progressivism (although I must admit to being an electoral politics junkie, which is why I lurk around here so much).

At this point in this country's history, in my opinion, we cannot expect any politician to lead a progressive political movement.  

We must create that progressive movement ourselves, and bring the politicians kicking and screaming along with us.

Soldiers are required to do their jobs when politicians fail to do theirs.


Agreed (0.00 / 0)
You can run a progressive, ideologically pure campaign, or you can run a winning campaign. Does anyone really think anyone - even Mr. Charisma himself - can do both?

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
So, is what you're saying (0.00 / 0)
that it's impossible for a true progressive to ever get elected?

And you seem to use "ideologically pure" in a pejoritive sense.  So someone who has a strong set of inviolable principles that guides his or her actions is a bad thing, and most certainly can't get elected?

Maybe you're right, but I wouldn't crow about it.

Soldiers are required to do their jobs when politicians fail to do theirs.


[ Parent ]
Crowing about it (0.00 / 0)
No, I don't mean it to sound like I'm proud of the fact that a true progressive faces certain hurdles to elected office. And certainly progressives - even some with fairly extreme viewpoints - do get elected to office (Go Bernie Sanders!). But this is the presidency. I think it is a different ballgame.
An outspoken progressive has different forms of leverage when running for a statewide office. They can play to the nature of their state. Not so in a national election.

But imagine if Obama was talking about poverty reduction, expansion of the welfare state, prison reform, ending the drug war, progressive taxation, single-payer health care, a carbon tax, liberalized immigration policy, and a whole host of other progressive policy positions. Even with his charisma, would he even stand a chance against a more centered politician like Hillary Clinton? I think he would be eaten alive by Hillary, the media and the right.

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra


[ Parent ]
I understand your point (0.00 / 0)
And certainly, history is more or less on your side.

And I would agree that any presidential politician who attempted to run on those issues AS YOU HAVE FRAMED THEM would definitely need a Plan B as far as future employment.

The reality is that on most of the issues you mention -- as well as a host of others-- a majority of the American public are actually IN LINE WITH PROGRESSIVE VALUES.

But as long as you keep framing progressive policies in right wing talking points, the battle is lost before it is even begun.

I would submit that an unabashedly progressive candidate -- with a high level of personal charisma and leadership -- who can unapologetically push a progressive agenda, would be enthusiastically supported by the American public. Of course, our current system for choosing our presidential candidates is pretty much set up to keep any such candidate from serious contention.

Look at the outpouring of support for Obama, even though he seems, at this point, to be more a faux progressive candidate than anything else.  Obama is currently riding on what people WANT him to be rather than what he actually is.  

Soldiers are required to do their jobs when politicians fail to do theirs.


[ Parent ]
Disagree with this bit (0.00 / 0)
...progressives will probably have no leverage on Obama and Clinton whatsoever once the general election campaign begins.

I actually think this is a difference between the two candidates. Elections themselves can be transformative. If Obama wins because of a groundswell of young, idealistic, enthusiastic voters led by a door-to-door grassroots effort, that will put progressive political pressure on him while he governs. If Clinton wins, that would reinforce the DLC consultant-driven top-down approach.


Chris (0.00 / 0)
come on. The only thing that's incompetent in regards to Nader is the blogosphere dismissing his ideas. You want to talk progressive politics and take him out of the picture. As the article indicates, no one else is stepping up. I explain this in my article on isgreaterthan.net (excuse the self-promotion)
This issue really pisses me off, he's the only one that will talk about Israel/Palestine, and REALLY talk about corporate greed, with Edwards out, who Nader endorsed, he is almost obligated to step up if no one else will

Nader (0.00 / 0)
The only thing that's incompetent in regards to Nader is the blogosphere dismissing his ideas.

If I had a dollar for everytime I was told that the only thing preventing X from succeeding was that the almighty progressive blogosphere didn't line up behind it, I'd have at least $75.

Nader's electoral campaigns were ineffective before the progressive blogosphere even existed. Somehow, I don't think that we could push him over the top, even if we wanted to (and I don't know anyone who does).  


[ Parent ]
getting him elected isn't the point (0.00 / 0)
the blogosphere prides itself on pushing the progressive agenda. Donna Edwards, FISA, etc.. wouldnt be brought to light if it werent for progressive blogs. For us not to even take into account what he's saying to push the dialogue to the left would be irresponsible. Instead of kissing Obama's ass as he moves to the center we need to press him on issues that people like NAder bring up.

Yeah, we kiss Obama's ass here (4.00 / 3)
I fail to see exactly how blogs like Open Left have failed to address issues like FISA just because we don't support Ralph Nader.

If getting elected isn't the point, but pushing issues is, exactly why do we have to push these issues in the context of Nader, anyway? We constantly push progressive issues. I fail completely to see how pushing them in the context of Nader would make our arguments more salient. If anything, it would hurt us severely.

And learn to click "reply."  


[ Parent ]
It's Our Job to Move Them to Progressive Agendas (4.00 / 2)
This is why issue organizing is so important, and we cannot focus exclusively on electoral organizing.  We need to create our own national coalitions for the issues we care about, independent of the Presidential race.

On healthcare for example: the RNs of America firmly believe that the public is ready for "Medicare for All." Polling supports this--up to 60 or 70% of respondents affirm--to the extent that polling can really determine complicated issues like that.

However, no Presidential candidate or President will out of the goodness of their heart pick a major fight with the insurance industry, unless we force them too.  We have to make it easier politically for a politician to buck the insurers than to duck the issue.

Yesterday in Ohio the National Nurses Organizing Committee/California Nurses Association--the nation's largest RN union--started a heavy rotation ad campaign to this effect.  It criticizes the despicable idea of individual mandates, which is associated with one of the two remaining D candidates, and encourages both of them to move to the kind of genuine, guaranteed healthcare reform we desperately need, and won't get if we just tinker with the current private insurance-based system.

Have a listen if you're interested: www.CalNurses.org .

Join the California Nurses Association and National Nurses Organizing Committee in the fight for guaranteed healthcare on the single-payer model at www.GuaranteedHealthcare.org/blog


PS-- (4.00 / 2)
Oviously we don't think attacking individual mandates "comes from the right."  We are a proud, progressive, activist union.

On this issue, I don't understand how progressives can decide to make common cause with the insurance industry and pass laws guaranteeing them customers, revenue, profits, and influence.  There's a reason that individual mandates are the top lobbying priority of the insurance industry.

Join the California Nurses Association and National Nurses Organizing Committee in the fight for guaranteed healthcare on the single-payer model at www.GuaranteedHealthcare.org/blog


[ Parent ]
Thank you for those comments (0.00 / 0)
This needs (needed) to be said more clearly and more loudly by the Obama campaign.

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
I had no idea that Obama was proposing UHC (0.00 / 0)
Gosh the things you learn on the Internet.

Just out of curiosity: On what planet does someone get elected promising to abolish an industry that employs several million people.

Just asking.  Some of us have to live on Planet Earth.


[ Parent ]
Chris i like the article - format suggestion (0.00 / 0)
take with a grain of salt since I know how hard it is to put together a story and get it published quickly. but i had some thoughts as a reader how parts of this might have been formatted a little better to make its impact more intense.

I personally happen to like bullet lists, or your tables for delegate scores have been excellent. I think you could have employed something like that here which would have given a lot of power to the story. In the table it would have been handy to have who said it Obama or Clinton, a 6-10 word summary of what was said, with a link to a big story in which they said it, and a date.  maybe use color codes for left and right - black for left, red for right. have them sorted by date. and include the Edwards dropout event as a row in the table.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


"to the right" on immigration? (0.00 / 0)
uh, no, actually much of that is to the left.  Most people in this country do not want massive guest worker Visas, increased immigration and open borders and it's very unwise to do such policy since it will affect, badly, US workers.

Nader has much stronger positions on this, (and from your comments, I guess he would be a right wing nut job then), as do many real Progressives and Populists because they know this really does affect American workers.

So, throwing US workers to the wolves is just not Progressive policy here.  

The key element to look for is who is willing to put tough laws on employers, especially large corporate farms, large meatpacking the ones who actively recruit illegal labor for the purposes of union busting and labor arbitrage.  

And here's another thing, right now in this nation we have outright slavery going on with illegal workers and guest worker Visas.  Now who is going to raise hell about this, start criminal proceedings, investigations, reforms and civil proceedings?  hmmmm, well, to date this fact gets scant attention.  There is a book called Nobodies, which documents a series of cases and shows how globalization is making this systemic and yes, within the United States.  Many of these so called "immigrant advocates" if one enacted what they want, this situation would become much worse.

But to imply some simple sanity of having a controlled immigration policy is right wing, well, I don't know who you are listening to but it cannot be the best labor economists in the nation or even the AFL-CIO on this one.  

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


labels suck (4.00 / 1)
This is where labels suck.  Idiots like Nader and Buchanan have basically the same view on immigration and trade.  Their view is neither left nor right, it is tribal populism.

Personally, I could never understand why Joe's welfare was more important than Jose's; nor the reverse.  People are people.  Trade and immigration effect both Joe and Jose and both matter.


[ Parent ]
when you are Joe (0.00 / 0)
or when you are Jose in another nation, get back to me on the economic realities of globalization.  

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
China (0.00 / 0)
I work at a software company that several years ago opened an office in China.  Several people I worked with couldn't stand the idea they might lose a job over this and found work elsewhere.

Even when I legitimately worried I might lose my job, I still couldn't get myself to think my job and life was more important than those in another country working their butts off to make themselves a better life.

I've traveled to China to show other programmers how to work on an application I largely developed.  So yea, I've been there.  And you know what, those folks in China were awesome!  The really want to prove themselves and make a better life for themselves and their families.  So sorry, I can't get into this tribalism crap, even when it seems to be in my best interest.

As it turned out, no one in this country lost a job overseas at my company.  Currently, I'm glad we have lots of international sales as it provides a buffer as the U.S. economy tanks.

Since then I've interviewed someone in Shanghai who was losing his job because it was being outsourced to a poorer area of China.  We have to take things carefully and sometimes slow down, but things do have a way of balancing themselves out.


[ Parent ]
that is beyond the pale (4.00 / 1)
Presenting some sort of belief that Americans must give up their jobs to help the people of China.

Do you throw yourself into the raging sea to drown yourself because another fell in?

I don't think so, I don't think that's real good advice that Americans should become like a 3rd world nation because other nations should have our jobs.  

Jesus.  

Oh, by the way, your comment is a corporate lobbyist talking point, well documented.

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
Belief?? Must?? (0.00 / 0)
Interesting.

Or, I actually care about people.


[ Parent ]
Its not in keeping with (4.00 / 1)
one's existential interest to be self sacrificing to the point of one's own personal destruction.  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
True (4.00 / 1)
But I never said I was all that self sacrificing.  And after all, the story does have a happy ending, even if it is some kind of corporate talking point.

I'm no expert and I certainly don't know all the ends and outs of trade agreements.  I certainly understand that one story does not prove anything, even when it is one's own story.  You don't demonstrate global warming by noting it is hot outside; it takes much, much more data than that.

My basic understanding and belief is trade and immigration are not zero-sum games; both lead to overall improvement.  The problem is the wealth is not well distributed.  Who cares if wealth 'overall' goes up if all of that extra wealth just goes to a handful of billionaires.

I find when talking to people like Robert I agree with over half of what he says, probably even more than that.  Once one drills down into details, I agree with most of the specific complaints, despite believing strongly in both trade and immigration.

But there is another, emotional element that just pisses me off.  The assumption that one human is more important than another just because of geographical proximity is insane.  I don't believe Robert really believes that, at least not intellectually, but it always comes out in the emotion of the conversation.  I heard it all the time back when we were hiring people in China.  That would be the populist tribalism I mentioned and cannot stand.


[ Parent ]
I read this wrong (0.00 / 0)
actually that's the real issue, now because I am an American, know the global game is not a "win-win", want the US to put first and foremost our national interest, American's interests, US middle class interests, US workers economic interests first.

Now, that said, a common attitude claimed is that America must give their jobs to Mexico because Mexico can't get it together to create jobs for their people.  Now that's ridiculous.  Even more importantly, by the math itself, from economics, it shows this represses labor conditions, wages, on a global scale.  It's the much referred to race to the bottom and there are multiple economic papers which show this conclusion, by the math.  

America should be pressuring, extensively, the Mexican government's policies in order to create a middle class, opportunities in Mexico and it actually can be done but not by having corporations write trade agreements and policy.
Mexico treating their oversupply of labor as some sort of exportable commodity, well, this sort of agenda, trading people as commodities, labor units, the entire thing needs to be stopped.  That's a fundamental issue on trade, in order for free trade theory to work, the means of production are static, immobile.   When one starts trading the means of production, i.e. workers, the entire model flies out the window and it's no longer a "win-win".  Along with this trading of people goes outsourcing of investment in people, social safety nets for people, education (training) for people...i.e. the society of people.

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
Standards (0.00 / 0)
Environmental and labor standards can, if implemented properly (meaning severely), largely alleviate the "race to the bottom". It's a shame we don't have those (thank you Bill Clinton).
As for the movement of people - I actually have read about this before but don't recall the details of the argument. However, it seems to me that people often migrate within countries to pursue better economic conditions. The Eastward march of the Chinese amounted to the greatest human migration in history. People also sometimes move between countries. So..
If I move to Arizona to get a better job and pursue a lower cost-of-living, am I undermining the economy? Or only if I move to Canada?
And aren't countries also capitalist entities in a sense, and shouldn't they move to compete with one another if they are faced with emigration. Russia comes to mine. Not picking a fight here, but am interested in feedback.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
minor (0.00 / 0)
and it depends on whether they are enforceable.  I see no evidence that Obama is talking about the ability to actually enforce them.

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
this is a great summary (4.00 / 1)
of where the popular position is on immigration. Some in progressive circles think guest worker and fast track paths to citizenship are popular positions that Democratic candidates can take. that thinking is wrong. Just because people oppose the great wall of Arizona does not mean they favor big guest working or amnesty. Many in progressive circles, particularly in organized labor and in African American communities, see guest worker and amnesty as threats to US workers. And I am in agreement with Robert that they are. Guest Worker is also a continuation of the illegal slavery that we have going on, and it is perfectly right to label illegal work forces as such.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
Guest Workers (0.00 / 0)
I agree 100% about guest workers.  There must always be a clear path to citizenship.

[ Parent ]
devil in the details (0.00 / 0)
One thing is certain, we need very detailed policy wonks monitoring this and analyzing it.  We do not need name calling, troll rating and inflammatory accusations because that is precisely the technique used by the Corporate cheap labor lobby interests to make this some "either/or" argument (either you are for open borders or you are a racist xenophobic ring-wing KKK member wing-nut) and thus,

One cannot get the details of the actual legislation out there, what it will do, the cost, the effects, the labor implications, what it does to any worker group and so on.

So, all I can hope for is that US policy and legislation wonks who will be so nerdy as to sit down and read a 600+ page bill and analyze these things can have a sane, enlightening discussion on it.

The devil is in the details of these bills and OMG, the secret amendment changes, the gutting of amendments, the deals behind the scenes would make your skin crawl.  Those corporate lobbyists are like snakes, slithering to and fro on the hill and even congressional legislative staffers don't know the latest of what's going on sometimes.  

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
Agreed (0.00 / 0)
Here I agree 100%.

[ Parent ]
Timing (4.00 / 1)
How much of this shift do you think could be attributable to the fact that the race is now focused on Texas and Ohio? That is, tone may change in anticipation to the next primary states, not the presence or absence of John Edwards.

that's possible (0.00 / 0)
and both campaigns are trying to win at least some conservative votes. But it is still disturbing how they are going about that task.  

[ Parent ]
Ok Chris (0.00 / 0)
Fair enough. So what do YOU suggest they do to win in Ohio and Texas? Given the dynamics of the race, how do you suggest they win more votes without offending your progressive sensibilities?
I just don't see a lot of vote-winning strategies either candidate can adopt from the left. Except for bashing NAFTA, which they have both done. And it should be to their credit they have maintained their line on immigration so far.

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
Edwards (0.00 / 0)
That's where I had serious trouble is his actual voting record.  He claimed to be fighting all of his life, yet...
not only did he vote for the China PNTR, the worst trade treaty of them all, but he introduced a massive H-1B guest worker Visa increased, he sponsored it and this positively decimated Professional workers during the early part of this decade because it was so high.  They brought the cap down later which helped Professional workers somewhat, but they never fully recovered, we're down still about 500k
STEM jobs in the aggregate.  We graduate more STEM Bachelors degrees right now than there are jobs available.

and to make matters worse, Edwards promised Silicon valley (as has Hillary and Obama, extensively) to increases these Visas.
This is Bill Gates, NASSCOM, ITAA and other lobbying organizations #1 objective, they are obsessed with it...
and why?  Because it enabled labor arbitrage and also enabled offshore outsourcing.  India especially is making billions by displacing US workers, labor arbitrage, now ~7.5% of their overall GDP and even worse, India with it's new ill gotten labor arbitrage business models is buying up US assets with the profits.

So, I have a very hard time believing anyone who is so intent on ignoring the facts, even their own GAO has released multiple studies proving how this is negatively affecting the US professional workforce and just promising to a bunch of lobbyists that they will get what they want.

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


GATS - health care, environmental = TRADE (0.00 / 0)
This is something that is critical and needs to be asked of both candidates.

Public Citizen (pdf) went through both Obama's and Hillary's policy proposals and point out that they must opt out of many GATS rules, i.e. challenge the WTO itself, in order to enact their policy proposals.

Are they willing to do this?  GATS, which is General Agreement on Trade and Services has numerous rules which can supersede US domestic law and policy.

I strongly suggest reading this document, it's long, dense and you'll have to study the details but it's worth it to realize just how much the WTO can supersede US domestic policy in multiple areas.

I think we need a strong yes or no position statement from them both because if you don't, then you can kiss any sort of real reforms in both health and environmental goodbye.  They would be overruled by the WTO as illegal and barriers to trade.

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


I find all these "when they don't matter" posts (4.00 / 2)
both here and else where  less than useless. Seriously, where were you people when the handwritting was on the wall back in 2007 when it mattered? Let me ask- did either Clinton or Obama in 2007 not make it clear that this would happen? I wish I had the time, but frankly, why bother because didn't you write extensively about progressives and the value of identitity politics. Has it ever occured to you that id politics was just a trojan horse for more of the same?

id politics (0.00 / 0)
Hey at least he's got his "creative class" candidate to identify with right?

[ Parent ]
On immigration I don't think Obama (0.00 / 0)
CAN tack to far to the right without completely contradicting himself.  He's on record as being in favor of driver's licenses for immigrants.  I don't think you'll find many right wingers promoting that.

If you read the "Race" chapter in Audacity of Hope he states:

"We have a right and duty to protect our borders. We can insist to those already here that with citizenship come obligations-to a common language, common loyalties, a common purpose, a common destiny. But ultimately the danger to our way of life is not that we will be overrun by those who do not look like us or do not yet speak our language. The danger will come if we withhold from them the rights and opportunities that we take for granted, and tolerate the hypocrisy of a servant class in our midst; or more broadly, if we stand idly by as America continues to become increasingly unequal, an inequality that tracks racial lines and therefore feeds racial strife and which, as the country becomes more black and brown, neither our democracy nor our economy can long withstand."

If that's his philosophy I don't think we'll have to worry.


Why would "attacking from the right" increase? (0.00 / 0)
Right now, they're in a primary battle in two conservative leaning states.  That's why we're seeing "attacks" from the right.

Once we're in a general election, why would these continue?  McCain will obviously be "attacking from the right", but our nominee will be attacking from the left...  unless you think Obama is somehow to the right of McCain?


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