Defining Obama's Mandate

by: Chris Bowers

Sun Mar 02, 2008 at 15:37


As I wrote in the post below this one, Obama appears to be successfully sending out dog whistles to both progressive activists and to center-right, elite media disciples of High Broderism. The combined effect is a tremendous boon for his campaign, earning him the largest activist army a primary season has ever witnessed (which leads to huge fundraising, crowds and caucus results), and much more favorable media coverage than Hillary Clinton (as demonstrated in his higher number of media endorsements and the more positive content of his campaign coverage). This is no small feat, as typically the candidate who attracts the most progressive activists is dismissed by the center-right, elite media disciples of High Broderism as just another DFH.

However, this dogwhistle Rorschach test, which progressive activists and media elites are interpreting so differently, could create problems for Obama when it comes time to govern. I have been heartened by the comments from many Obama supporters here that they intend to hold Obama accountable when he goes too far off the progressive rails. However, the same media elites that also like Obama intend to hold him accountable unless he becomes the next Joe Lieberman. Take David Igantius today, for example:

But what stands out in his brief Senate career is his liberal voting record, not a history of fighting across party lines to get legislation passed. He wasn't part of the 2005 Gang of 14 bipartisan coalition that sought to break the logjam on judicial nominations, but neither were Clinton or other prominent Democrats. He did support the bipartisan effort to get an immigration bill last year, winning a plaudit from McCain. But he didn't work closely with the White House, as did Sen. Edward Kennedy.

The Obama campaign sent me an eight-page summary of his "bipartisan accomplishments," and it includes some encouraging examples of working across the aisle on issues such as nuclear proliferation, energy, veterans affairs, budget earmarks and ethics reforms. So the cupboard isn't bare. It's just that, unlike McCain, Obama bears no obvious political scars for fighting bipartisan battles that were unpopular with his party's base.

"The authentic Barack Obama? We just don't know. The level of uncertainty is too high," one Democratic senator told me last week. He noted that Obama hasn't been involved in any "transformative battles" where he might anger any of the party's interest groups. "If his voting record in the past is the real Barack Obama, then there isn't going to be any bipartisanship," this senator cautioned.

Obama's message of bipartisanship means different things to different people. Media elites see it as a sign that he will regularly engage in fights that will anger the progressive activist base of the party. By contrast, many progressive activists see it as simply stating that he intends to build a large, "bipartisan" majority in Congress that will pass a progressive agenda. If, when he becomes President, Obama breaks in one direction or the other, one of these groups will probably end up pretty angry at him. Activists might wonder where their progressive governing majority is, while media elites might wonder what happened to the restoration of High Broderism in the federal government. It is in this sense that Obama's dueling dogwhistles leave a huge question mark as to how his governing mandate will be perceived, and indeed to how he will govern at all.

Campaigning is often a sign of how someone will govern. In 2000, the Bush campaign ended up "winning," basically by preventing many people from voting in Florida, and then stopping the recount there altogether. He won through a power grab, foreshadowing the many power grabs to come in his administration. In 2004, Bush won through a base strategy, and then preceded to govern directly to the base without any concern for broader public sentiment. In the 2008 campaign, Obama is winning by appealing to a huge wave of progressive activists, but also by appealing to beltway, center-right conventional wisdom. This is why, over the past week, I keep coming back to who Obama will pick as his Vice-President--not to mention key cabinet positions like Secretary of State and Defense--as a key sign of how he intends to govern. Sending out signals that he might appoint Hagel to one of those positions strongly indicates that the will defer to contemporary center-right CW. However, he has not actually made such a choice yet, and there is still time to convince him to make a different sort of pick.

Obama's Vice-Presidential choice now strikes me as extremely key to defining his governing mandate before he takes office. A progressive fighter like Sherrod Brown, Barbara Boxer, Chris Dodd or Russ Feingold would indicate that he does intend to govern as a progressive. (Now, I know there are quibbles with classifying one or all of those people as progressive fighters, but please don't let the flaws of any of the specific examples take away from the larger point.) By contrast, picking a center-right or Bush Dog type Democrat would send an entirely opposite message. It is in this way that a campaign for a progressive Vice-President under Obama might become one of, if not the, most important fights for progressives between now and August. Obama's running mate could settle this dog whistle discrepancy once and for all, and help define how he will (hopefully) govern over the next four years.

Look to Obama's appointments and advisors as the best indications of how he will govern. And then, put pressure on him to pick progressives for those positions. Defining Obama's mandate as a progressive one could be the biggest fight we face over the next few months, and could make our governing work from 2009 on all easier.  

Chris Bowers :: Defining Obama's Mandate

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I am confused (0.00 / 0)
How exactly do they plan to hold him accountable? Do blogs remember their own rhectoric? Isn't it here where people wrote elections have consequences? Isn't now rather than later where one should require clarity from him because once in office, aren't we stuck with him?

Huh? (0.00 / 0)
I'm trying to point to a location where more clarity can be provided, and urging people to organize on that front. A progressive fighter as a VP would send the sort of indication I am looking for. And there is still time to make this definition, rather than throwing our hands up in the air already.

There might be some Obama supporters who will welcome the choice of a conservative VP, but I don't think that represents "blogs" as a whole.  


[ Parent ]
See my post below as to why I question your logic here (4.00 / 1)
I just don't get why you think progressives will at this late date have an influence over him versus the forces he is trying to win over now in his words and actions. Once he has the nomination, it's seems too late to influence this. It seems counter GE logic.  CW is that Democratic candidates move (according to GE logic) to the right? I don't get why he will change this considering he hasn't even shown this tendency during the primary season-- so why now?

[ Parent ]
I agree with bruh (4.00 / 2)
Many Obama supporters fall into the pattern of "we haven't had a single complaint about Obama during this campaign, but don't worry, we'll be sure to complain if we don't like what he does after the election!"  Their refusal to pressure him from the left during the campaign calls into question whether they would truly do so after the election, or whether they're going to continue to delude themselves into thinking that whatever Barack Obama does is by definition progressive.

Chris, you are one of the few asking these questions at this moment in time.  In the blogosphere I used to know, there wouldn't be any need to wonder if people will be holding Obama's feet to the fire after the election, because the netroots would have been taking the lead on lodging those criticisms all along.


[ Parent ]
What magical netroots are these that you speak of? (0.00 / 0)
As I recall, the same thing happened during the last presidential election. Also, it's just reality that the larger the netroots get, the more centrist and mainstream they will become. There are only so many progressive activists out there, and they can be active on only so many websites.

[ Parent ]
Hmm (4.00 / 1)
I recall that the netroots were hardly unified behind the SYFPH position during the last election.

I don't see any movement of the netroots towards a more "centrist and mainstream" position in any respect other than in support for whatever Barack Obama happens to do.  Except where Obama is involved, the netroots have not been interested in compromise on Iraq, telecom immunity, or any of the other issues that typically come up.  Only when Obama takes a more cautious position than the typical netroots stance do the netroots suddenly arrive at the conclusion that gee, I guess the more centrist position is the correct one after all.


[ Parent ]
So (4.00 / 1)
You seem to think that otherwise partisan progressive netroots warriors suddenly become conciliatory centrists whenever Obama's name comes up and try to excuse his capitulating behavior. Obviously this effect is true to some extent, but I think it's pretty clear that people who happen to be conciliatory centrists in the first place are then more likely to become drawn to Obama's message and become supporters. You have the causation backwards.

The netroots of 2008 are not the same as the netroots of 2004. They've grown and they've changed in a number of ways. This is probably why the main authors on most of the A-list progressive blogs have been significantly more skeptical of Obama than many of the commentators have been, just because they've been around since the beginning.  

And again it's the presidential election season. People are going to close ranks around the nominee, just like they did last time.  


[ Parent ]
You misunderstand the nature of why they accept what he says (0.00 / 0)
The cult like qualities make people do what they woudln't normal do for anyon e else. If what you said were true, they would be centrist with other centrist candidates .

[ Parent ]
Follow up point (0.00 / 0)
My friend who used to work for Gov. Ann Richards used to say to me that "politics is about dancing with the one what brung ya."

It seems to me the message and forces that are bringing Obama to power aren't compatable with you  or progressive having any influence of any future action he takes. That ship has sailed.  


It seems to me (4.00 / 4)
that you are pretty defeatist. Some of the forces working to bring Barack Obama to power are pretty progressive. It remains to be seen how much power those forces will have in an Obama administration.  

[ Parent ]
I am not defeatist. I am paying attention, and, therefore, bearish about outcomes. (4.00 / 1)
Despite all your talk and that of others, we once more have two centrists up for the nomination this year. It hardly matters if those forces are progressive if they have let themselves becomes a part of a campaign that's not.

If he thought he had to placate the progressives, he wouldn't be saying and doing the things he is doing. He obviously believes that it's conservatives he needs.

Let me ask you this-- what in his statements or behaviors indicates to you that he can be so influenced by these progressive forces? My mentor has  a line that I've adopted - when someone shows you who they are, believe it. Obama has been making clear who has his ear for quite a while now. Why do you think this will change once he gets the nomination or Presidency? I don't get it.  


[ Parent ]
Right to the point... (0.00 / 0)

................................pointed though it be for Chris and Kos and the rest who have insisted all along that Obama 'could be the progressive tranformer we need....'

And now, after Obama declares his intention of appointing Republicans to his cabinet we find what?

Denial...

Face facts, we'll be lucky if President Obama, should it come to that, does not appoint Lieberman to SCOTUS.

Lucky.

Gonna be a lot of fried crow eaten in the 'sphere if Obama gets in.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
This is the trojan horse of id politics=progressive (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
What the hell are you talking about? (0.00 / 0)
pointed though it be for Chris and Kos and the rest who have insisted all along that Obama 'could be the progressive tranformer we need....'

You are just making this up. That's total bullshit.  


[ Parent ]
I've seen diaries where you have leaned to Obama (0.00 / 0)
being a progressive transformative candidates. You didn't it that way, but it seemed implicit.

[ Parent ]
What? (4.00 / 3)
When did Kos or Chris EVER declare that? Kos has said that his organizational strategy could help to create a more organized, and hopefully progressive, Democratic Party, but they have both expressed doubts numerous times, and never declared Obama as a candidate a transformational Progressive, as far as policy or shifts of issue framing.

As well, as an Obama supporter, I have to say, I will be VERY pissed if Obama does not put forth some of the major Progressive planks he has been emphasizing (leaving Iraq, reforming Health care, reforming Education, etc.). The reason Obama supporters aren't being so hard on him now that he is a very hard Primary campaign, and criticism from the Left would only benefit Hillary Clinton at this point in the game. Is this fair? No. But, the fact is, and you can't deny this, they are EXTREMELY similar as far as their ideologies (I believe someone else in a previous comment section pointed out that she too has said she will put Republicans in her Cabinet), but the major difference is their organization, and I have to say, if I have to choose between two Centrists using Progressive rhetoric, one who works from the top down and only focuses on Blue and Swing states, and another who works from the bottom up and focuses on all 50 states, I'm going to go with the latter, because even if that candidate proves to be a failure, there will be a strong, powerful, and organized party that can pick up the pieces, which will not happen if the former fails in office.

Former Edwards Supporter, Obama Supporter since January 30, 2008


[ Parent ]
You make a better argument that most (0.00 / 0)
Organizational structure definitely is of great value. However, when discussing Obama in terms of what he will do and what forces can be brought forth, I still believe the arguments have morphed over time (hence my continuing focus on id politics). These discussions but for id politics, should have been discussed months ago when his candidacy was being shaped, and now it will mostly be chipping at the edges for 4 years if he should become president. Presidents, not their organizations, suck up much of the energy for both the party and the rest of the country.

[ Parent ]
Exactly (0.00 / 0)
As I said, the argument is simply that he is doing a good job at organizing the party, and with many Progressives being attracted to his campaign (something you can't reasonably deny), it would make sense that many Progressives would be a party of this new organized Party.

Former Edwards Supporter, Obama Supporter since January 30, 2008

[ Parent ]
Republicans in the Cabinet (4.00 / 2)
is such a totally ridiculous thing to base anything on.

Did anyone notice how George W. Bush had a Democrat in his cabinet for many years (Norm Mineta)?

If Obama appointed Lincoln Chafee to some minor post, or someone like Jim Leach (yes, I know, the antichrist) or Dick Lugar as UN Ambassador, or whatever, is that really such a big deal?

Appointing members of the opposite party into one's cabinet is always about co-option, not about selling out to the other party.  When FDR appointed Henry Stimson and Frank Knox as Secretary of War and Secretary of the Navy, that didn't mean he was kowtowing to the Republicans.  It was a way of co-opting internationalist Republican opposition to his foreign policy.  When Nixon appointed John Connally as Secretary of the Treasury, it was, again, about co-opting conservative southern Democrats.  Those kind of appointments are always about finding members of the opposing party who already support you in whatever area you're appointing them to a position in, and then using their political connections to the other side as a way of getting what you want done.


[ Parent ]
Progressive One (0.00 / 0)
A while back, I was told by a strong Obama supporter - " don't worry he"ll be what you want."  That was it - proof

[ Parent ]
The only way to hold him accountable (0.00 / 0)
is to vote him out in 4 years, which is not a very rosy senario.

I'm actully quite worried that he'll win the GE and then dissappoint everyone, since everyone is projecting on him who they wish him to be and its impossible to live up to all the different things he's expected to do.  Then we'll end up with another Republican and in worse shape than we started.


he'll maintain the suspense (0.00 / 0)
Two VP candidates that would give both wings something to hope for would be Governor Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas or Senator Jim Webb.

How? (0.00 / 0)
Webb has been pretty conservative during his stay in the Senate. I think that would end the discussion right then and there, rather than keeping it open.

I don't know much about Sebelius, but the idea of the governor of Kansas as a progressive fighter strikes me as a stretch. both of your suggestions, I think would settle the debate rather than keeping it open.  


[ Parent ]
Online Autism (4.00 / 1)
One of the characteristics that I observed at Blog for America during the rise of Dean was that the spoken word gets stripped of it's emotional context when transcribed into blog-speak -- even worse, the tendency to highlight a single phrase into a campaign defining gesture is one of the great weaknesses of blogtopia.

The campaign is not about us -- if it were, John Edwards would be taking a victory lap right now. The campaign is about winning the election in a landslide, with coattails that deliver an overwhelming Democratic Majority.

The Reagan issue is a case in point -- Team Obama deliberately adopted the Reagan Model: sunny optimism, aspirational rhetoric, and Rorschach personal identification opportunities. That is not a failure -- that is brilliant politics

The Politico 7/25/07

Obama is touting a new and unconventional brand of grass-roots politics, but his strategy borrows from precedents set by a previous generation of Democrats such as Jimmy Carter and Gary Hart. His advisers also invoke as inspiration a surprising Republican: Ronald Reagan.

"Now, it is blasphemy for Democrats," Obama pollster Cornell Belcher said of Reagan, "but that hope and optimism that was Ronald Reagan" allowed him to "transcend" ideological divisions within his own party and the general electorate. ...
Obama's need to transcend conventional politics is evident by looking at the practical hurdles to his nomination.



[ Parent ]
A response (0.00 / 0)
a) Do you admit that the media shapes which campaigns won and lost this cycle? Or, that ID politics shaped Democratic voting patterns?

b) If primary votes were a sign of who could win in the GE, we would be addressing a Pres Kerry now. One of the greater logical fallacies of Obama and Clinton supporters is to tell us how their ability to convince Democratic voters to vote for them or Obama's ability to win in a Democratic primary in red states means something for the GE. You beat Edwards in a Democratic primary using push buttons that really work on Democrats and independents, but not necessarily argues that will win a GE.

Every Democratic nominee for President wins during the primary in red states- the question is do they win those states in the GE. Obviously they do not or else again we would be saying Pres. Kerry.  Obama will be no different.

c) This diary is discussing how we will achieve a progressive agenda. Not how Obama personally will win. How does what you say differ from the Clinton era?


[ Parent ]
Webb (0.00 / 0)
As much as I would love to see Obama choose someone like Feingold as his VP, I think Webb might be the perfect person to attack McCain (not to mention the possibility of VA being in play).  But the American Prospect story on the Veepstakes states that Webb "expressed very public concern about the ability of women to lead men in combat."  Does anyone know the original text of that comment?  I would like to read his statement for myself.  I dont think that after beating Hillary it would be wise for Obama to turn around and pick a VP who has publicly questioned the full equality of women.

also, any word on who Obama is thinking of for AG (other than JRE's desire for the spot)?


[ Parent ]
Virginian here (0.00 / 0)
I followed and supported Webb's election in '06 very closely. Yes, way back when he said that. He since changed his mind and says that he got that wrong. I don't remember the exact phrasing.

I like him as a Senator but he is crotchety and in some important ways quite conservative. I wouldn't want him near the VP nomination despite the fact that he'd make an effective bulldog, especially on Iraq.  


[ Parent ]
So Obama's going to set Jim Webb up (0.00 / 0)
to be his successor?  The same Jim Webb who promised to take the fight to Bush, and then voted with Bush on all national security/foreign policy issues?  The same Jim Webb who campaigned as a progressive and then voted the opposite way progressives voted after he was elected? Jim Webb is, as Chris rightly says, a conservative.  Obama will not want to establish a conservative as his heir apparent.  

Webb voted in favor of retroactive immunity.  The one issue he has been really good on is veteran's issues. He actually changed his party registration to Democratic primarily because he couldn't see any other path to elective office, since he had made so much noise about the Repig's mistreatment of service members and veterans that he had become persona non grata with Repigs.  And his fury at the Repigs over those issues was what propelled him to seek office.

Webb's a much better senator than Allen, but he is not a party leader, nor is he anywhere near Obama on the political spectrum.  Webb is about as far to the right as you can be and still be a Democrat.  Obama is much further to the left.

Plus, Webb doesn't have a constituency of his own to bring to the table.  His victory over Allen was because of the macaca incident, and the fact that Allen was exposed as barely human in terms of compassion and humility.  In other words, what got Webb elected isn't his to bestow.

Furthermore, since Obama drew over 2.5 times as may votes in the Virginia Democratic primary as McCain did in the Repig primary, it's questionable that Webb has any contribution to make in terms of winning his home state, which Webb did by a much smaller margin.

But the real issue is, why dilute Obama's unapologetic progressive appeal with a Blue Dog?  How would that make political sense?


[ Parent ]
A progressive fighter? I doubt it (0.00 / 0)
Obama needs to win the election before he does anything else. I haven't made up my mind up about who Obama should pick as VP, but it almost certainly isn't going to be anyone as liberal as he is. His best chance against the straight-talking maverick McCain is to steal away enough of the independents and swing voters which would usually gravitate towards McCain against a double ticket of "progressive fighters" (aka. socialist liberals).

Sad to say, but the lefty blogosphere is not the constituency Obama needs to appeal to win the general election. Hell, he isn't even bothering to appeal to us in the primary.


Or we can bolster our base (0.00 / 0)
get high turnout with dems, amongst whom Obama is already popular, and put together a base dem coalition alongside anti-Bush republicans and indies.  

Tie McCain to Bush, and electoral victory is to follow.


[ Parent ]
If that is true (4.00 / 3)
If winning elections and being a progressive fighter are incompatible, we might as well all give up right now. I don't believe that is the country in which we live. If I did, I probably wouldn't be involved in politics at all.  

[ Parent ]
That's not what I said (4.00 / 1)
But there are certain electoral realities progressives need to face on the national level. Those realities can be moved over time, but only slowly, and it can't be done in one election. Obama could be the most progressive person ever in his heart, as could Hillary Clinton, but if they want to get elected and if they want to govern effectively they need to build a majority coalition of diverse interest groups. The question for the progressive blogosphere is how important are we in that coalition and what kind of power we have to influence a President Obama or Clinton. It's an empirical question, and the answer is not much. Even in the democratic primary, where we can claim the most power, neither Obama nor Clinton owe us anything particular--in fact most of the blogosphere was on board with Edwards until he dropped out. We are one of their constituencies but hardly the most vital one; insofar as the blogosphere is biased towards being loyal to the democratic party, then no matter what he/she does a democratic President will always enjoy a core of support there as well.    

I expect Obama or Clinton will govern as pragmatic, technocratic centrists, pushing a somewhat reduced version of their current platforms. That's where the powers and structural dynamics that put them into power lie. Frankly, if this results in an end to Iraq War, universal health care, and a serious green energy initiative--and I'm hopeful it will--that's good enough for me. The more hard-core leftists will no doubt be unsatisfied by these limited reforms, and they will continue to dream of some mythical revolutionary warrior who might perhaps emerge out of the mist somewhere. But such a person will never be elected President in the current electoral reality, and that reality will not change if we do not try to change it. In fact, politicians in a democracy cannot lead the people. They can only tell them where they already want to go. If we want a truly progressive agenda, that means building a broad-based, grassroots movement for change so that we, the progressives, become an influential constituency that cannot be ignored or pushed aside by any democratic leader. We are much farther along in this goal than we are a few years ago. But there is still a long way to go.  

So by all means let's hold Obama or Clinton accountable and push him/her towards progressive governance. But we shouldn't have illusions about how powerful we really are--yet. It took the Republican right decades to build the sort of power that the Democratic left wants to have right now. It's not that easy.


[ Parent ]
I disagree with this. (0.00 / 0)
I think that what you are saying here basically doesn't take into consideration the complexity of the electorate.  Obama won't necessarily appeal to "independents" by picking a Bush Dog as his VP.  A lot of independents don't trust Washington any more than a used car salesman, and are looking for candidates who aren't more of the same.  Incidentally, this is why we need to paint McCain as a reincarnation of Bush rather than a straight talking maverick.  It is also why Chris' suggestion that Obama pick a lefty fighter as his VP is actually not necessarily bad political strategy.  He might lose Bloomberg's support, but if he picks up a chunk of the electorate that he would otherwise not have gotten, it would be a strategic move.

Chris, I absolutely agree that pushing Obama on his VP choice (assuming he is the nominee) is probably the single most important thing the progressive blogosphere can do to move him to the left pre-inauguration.  I've also been talking to some people here in Chicago about organizing a major event on the day of his inauguration (student walk-outs, rallies, etc.), calling on Obama to uphold his commitment to rapidly withdrawing from Iraq.  We're going to have work to do.  


[ Parent ]
VPs are not picked for governing or succession (4.00 / 2)
They are picked to win the general election.  Of course, how a VP would govern is a factor with the electorate and there has to be some basic compatibility.  But, I assure you that the VP pick will be determined by the answer -- will he or she help win the election. So, the pick is not the best indication of how he (or she) will govern, even if it constitutes some evidence of same.

John McCain doesn't care about Vets.



It depends (0.00 / 0)
In 2000, the Cheney selection was the best possible indicator of how Bush would govern--Cheney's record was a far better predictor of Bush's style than Bush's campaign rhetoric, Colin Powell, or his non-record as governor of Texas.  

Clinton choosing Gore as a reinforcing choice is another example where the VP choice was very indicative of how he would govern--Clinton chose another southern, DLC democrat (whose national profile came partially from denouncing the horror of Cyndi Lauper to the public).  It indicated that the vauge, sort of populist style of Clinton's campaign rhetoric would soon come to be replaced with a much more technocratic, bargain-oriented, centrist style of governance.


[ Parent ]
cyndi lauper (0.00 / 0)
can I get background on the cyndi lauper thing? I've never heard that before and it interests me

[ Parent ]
Yom Dude! He Ran For President In 1988 (0.00 / 0)
Not that he did all that well, but he got plenty of press for it.

The PRC stuff reached a lot of music fans that may not have been paying much attention to the Democratic primaries in '88, but that hardly constitutes the sort of name recognition one might be looking for.

Gore was someone with strong Washington connections, which Clinton lacked, who was otherwise politically quite similar.

That's what that picked meant to me, never a fan of either one of them--until Gore underwent his wilderness transformation and came out against the Iraq War.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Fair enough (0.00 / 0)
I was ten at the time.  Those tipper stickers sure stuck in my memory, though.

[ Parent ]
I think the Gore example is valid (0.00 / 0)
Cheney just took over.

John McCain doesn't care about Vets.



[ Parent ]
Do us a favor and pull the Liebercrat.... (0.00 / 0)
........Boxer from your VP list. She's a disaster on energy and the military as Matt has posted here.

I don't buy your theory about how we are going to influence Obama as I believe he'll just, as Lieberman did, tell the low-info folk who voted for him to 'drop dead'. Oh, he'll be polite about it but after all....

What more does he need but teh true awesome of Obama...The One. In short the guy believes his on schtick; a characteristic of your really great con-men.

Here's the real Obama:

Interesting......

Give his recent work as chairman I really don't give a fuck what he thinks he's gonna do. Whatever it is ain't gonna happen for a guy who does not show up for work.

Funny how that clip is of a piece with his voting record....but somehow...I'm not laughing.

But having Boxer on the list just makes you look naive. She's as progressive as Miss Nancy. No more no less...

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


Boxer is hardly perfect (4.00 / 2)
And she clearly is more an old-style intrest group oriented Democrat, but calling her a Liebocrat is somewhat unfair.  She regularly ranks in the top ten voting records according to Progressive Punch, and even higher by most other methodologies.  

Would you really look at Obama taking Boxer as his VP as essentially equivalent to him taking Ben Nelson?


[ Parent ]
Not to metnion (4.00 / 2)
her role in actually contesting the 2004 election in the Senate.  That's clearly not something she had to do.

[ Parent ]
A reasonably fair question... (0.00 / 0)
...and since I'm really into PP lately let's take a look:

Boxer overall: 95.55...pretty damn good. But wait what's that?

Labor Rights 89.71 what's up with that? Digging a little deeper we find:

Outsourcing jobs overseas: 62.50

Pension protections: 66.67

My, that's not so good....

But hey she whips ass on Senator 'Hope' who's chips are down score is.....

76.87

Sheesh.....

I'll take you Ben Nelson comment for snark...giving you the benefit of the doubt there as we are supposedly talking about progressives...heh...yeah....

So....yeah, I guess I'm wrong Boxer, bad as she is, would hopefully pull the really bad Obama administration back onto the progressive path!

What a great idea!

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
ridiculous (0.00 / 0)
Barbara Boxer is about as Progressive as you can get in California, which... although frequently diefied isn't really as liberal as most realize thanks to the central valley and such.

Liebercrat?
please.

For every one time she's wrong she's right 19 times.

Boxer as VP would be incredible.

-C.


[ Parent ]
That video (0.00 / 0)
is BS and you should really stop posting it.  He was discussing how mainstream Donald Rumsfeld was in relation to how mainstream John Ashcroft was -- this clip conveniently leaves that out.  You also fail to mention that Rumsfeld was confirmed by voice vote.

[ Parent ]
He said what he said.... (0.00 / 0)
...seems he also thinks 'judgement' is an important thing to have for a big political dud like himself....right.....

....I notice you've nothing to say about the other video.

What's the reason the citizens should not see that one?

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
Plus (0.00 / 0)
Arnold would put a republican in her place.

(or would there be a special election?)


[ Parent ]
The third way (0.00 / 0)
Obama's message of bipartisanship means different things to different people. Media elites see it as a sign that he will regularly engage in fights that will anger the progressive activist base of the party. By contrast, many progressive activists see it as simply stating that he intends to build a large, "bipartisan" majority in Congress that will pass a progressive agenda. If, when he becomes President, Obama breaks in one direction or the other, one of these groups will probably end up pretty angry at him.

Obama's pattern of voting present, avoiding controversial votes and no real record of legislative accomplishment suggest it is possible Obama may follow a third way. It is called a failure of leadership. He would neither fight the Republicans to pass a progressive agenda nor would he fight progressives to build a Republican-friendly bipartisan agenda. His administration could drift into a rapid irrelavance.


Thanks for bringing your (2.00 / 2)
Larry Johnson / Taylor Marsh talking points into the discussion.

As soon as you bring up the "voting present" issue you lose most political junkies that frequent the blogs.


[ Parent ]
Obama... (4.00 / 1)
...has not demonstrated that he is a fighter for a progessive agenda. I am sorry that disturbs you.  

[ Parent ]
I think that is a strong possibility (0.00 / 0)
Much like Bill Clinton.

[ Parent ]
Bill Clinton... (0.00 / 0)
...isn't the candidate.

[ Parent ]
1992 (0.00 / 0)
I meant like Bill Clinton in 1992.

[ Parent ]
Thanks for the clarification (0.00 / 0)
Just so I am clear, I think Hillary Clinton would be a better president than Bill Clinton. I think she is more disciplined than he is and she is more of a progressive than he was. To be fair to Bill Clinton, he was president while conservatism was still in ascendency. Thanks to George Bush and the Republicans in congress that is no longer true.  

[ Parent ]
Obama has been (4.00 / 1)
very clear that he doesn't believe in partisan politics as it has evolved. He has never made the case that he is a true progressive. On the surface, this is worrisome for progressives seeking as much progressive legislation and leadership as possible.

He has also been very clear that he plans on achieving a mandate by pulling large swaths of people together from various places who do not normally vote Dem. This appeal stems in some significant part to his rhetoric of non-partisanship.

He has a record that is by and large liberal. This is the good news for progressives. When he actually talks about issues, he says very little that doesn't pass liberal muster. He is pro-choice, pro death penalty reform, pro-tax relief for those who need it and tax increases for those who don't, he is anti-imperialist presidency and anti-imperialist foreign policy, etc.

He also has a record of working with the other side to pass common sense legislation, the best example of this being the work he did with Lugar on securing nuclear material.

Governance could be problematic because he has a lot of different groups of people to keep happy. But this is a nice problem to have. It may come down to the honeymoon -- whether or not he gets one, how long it lasts, etc. If he can get a legislative victory or two under his belt, his popularity could by and large hold.


So my point is (0.00 / 0)
that, yeah, his candidacy has been a successful Rorschach test but there's reason his governance won't be the same.  

[ Parent ]
And the Republicans are going to let him do this! (2.00 / 2)

That my friend is really thinking 'outside the box'.

Somewhere near the orbit of Eris which I suppose is appropriate.

No the Republicans are going to destroy Senator 'Kumbaya' if he becomes President. Why not? He's leading with his chin and they are bullies and thugs with their backs against the wall. Everything from his name to his sex-life will be exposed.

Farrakan...you betcha....

Money from the folks who de-industrialized Iowa....hell yes brother...

Homophobic hatahs....yep...

And when Timmeh has his good friend McConnell on Press the Meat Ol' Mitch will get all misty and say, 'Well, Tim as you know we'd love to work with the President but this is one case where his inexperience is hampering his well-intentioned efforts. He should have....yadda....yadda...'

Well maybe Barack can git his good friend Kos to go up the hill and slap them ReThugs around....

Yeah, right......

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
You know (4.00 / 4)
Defeatist comments like these don't help. We get it, you've said, essentially this, several times in this section. Just acting all gloomy doesn't add to the discussion. If you have so little faith in the Obama presidency, that's fine, but why don't you just spend your time constructively and spend time getting more and better Democrats elected to Congress; that at least has a positive purpose.

Former Edwards Supporter, Obama Supporter since January 30, 2008

[ Parent ]
How is pointing out the observed and expected (0.00 / 0)
behavior of GOP representatives a sign of being defeatist? I believe many of you at best border on faith based analysis. You have to be able to respond to the reality of what the GOP will do. If you can't, you will defeat yourself. Not this poster on a random diary.

[ Parent ]
My point is (0.00 / 0)
talking about all of Obama's negatives, which we all already know and have taken into consideration by the way, and then saying that it will be hopeless if he gets the nomination, which he likely will, serves no real purpose, especially when it has been stated several times. Am I saying the person has no right to say this? No. What I am saying is, as Progressive Democrats, we ALL want to elect more and more better Democrats, and so continuously being gloomy about a situation one does not like doesn't help ANYONE, and if you think the Presidency is "doomed" (something with which I don't agree), then you would be helping EVERYONE, including yourself, by shifting your attention to Congress, and getting more and better Democrats elected THERE.

Former Edwards Supporter, Obama Supporter since January 30, 2008

[ Parent ]
Exactly when did you take this in consideration (0.00 / 0)
because I certainly have seen any of you do this either here or in any of the other blogs you are claiming I should have checked out.

Let me be blunt-- what you are saying is you want to feel good about your decision.

What I am saying is I am not interested in how you feel. I am interested in whether policies will be enacted that will help people. Period. End of story.

Toward that end, that's a long term - years in the making process and not something that I think will occur through one leader. Indeed, your problem is that the very way you are trying to convince me is what convinces me that little will change. It's just more the snake oil I've heard inthe past. If you want to convince a skeptic like me, be real. Give facts. Give data. Show how in actual dialogue Obama is upholding principles in a concrete way that will over years make changes happen.  The conservatives didn't change things over night. Nor will we. It certainly won't happen through fantasizing over a savior doing it for me.

You need to stop confusing the fact I don't buy your argument with I don't believe things can change. To me, you are the gloomy one because it's so obvious what you are doing.  I think things can change but only if you are firmly in touch with reality or other wise it results in failure. It's that simple.


[ Parent ]
I never attempted (0.00 / 0)
to convince anyone of anything, other than the fact that if you truly hate Obama, and are doing nothing more than complaining about the imminent and unavoidable failure of Obama (and many people doing this say it is inevitable, and aren't making an argument for Clinton), you are being less constructive than if you were to invest your time working to get more and better Democrats into Congress. If you don't like Obama and don't want to work for his campaign, fine, but at least support Progressive Democrats running for Congress.

Former Edwards Supporter, Obama Supporter since January 30, 2008

[ Parent ]
I don't know (0.00 / 0)
where you're getting this "savior" business.  This is going to be a paradigm shifting election.  Why?  Because Bush and the Repigs have fucked up so many things for so long at such a fundamental level that the public at large has come back out of their TV induced trance and started paying attention to politics again, and they don't like the way things are.  And they are going to have their dislike register at the polls.  

Perhaps coincidentally, Obama arrived on the scene with a message of taking responsibility for our own governance.  He offered an organizational model which is based on the ability of organized and realistic activism to make a difference.  That message's resonance is what has propelled him to the nomination.

You are still talking as though we were still mired in the 49%/49% standoff.  We aren't.  Many political statistics show a large shift.  56%-44% registration favoring the Dems.  Independents showing support of Dem candidates by 70%-30% in the last polls I saw.  Huge margins of turnout in the primaries favoring the Dems.  And a Repig nominee who is known as John MoreBush McCain.

People are just fed up with Repig bullshit.  All we have to do to have a tidal wave election is constantly re-iterate and prove the point that Bush's fuckups were eagerly and enthusiastically supported by the Repig Congress and Senate, Repig party officials, and Repig propagandists everywhere.

This should be easy, because they are still doing it .  And part of the Repig bullshit that is being broadly rejected is their election propaganda. It just doesn't have any sting anymore.  So there's no need to keep obsessing over it.


[ Parent ]
Becauase you offer no explainatin of how (0.00 / 0)
you will address the central reason politics at the national level has been failing- namely the GOP and its tactics. When asked you resort to pointing out Obama is Obama. That's a messianic complex even if you can't see it. In fact, the fact you can't see it is classic behavior of that type and we aren't in the general so when you are saying it's not working any more that seems a strech, and more to the point, why resusitate that leadership since they are the ones returning? See there really is no logical way for your argument to make sense if onc takes what you argue into consideration in  a wider context of who runs the GOP. You simply can't argue your way around the flaw in your analysis. It's premised on support from the very people that ou acknowleged can t be trusted. You claim peopl are feed up and then say lets reach across the ailse anyhow? why? And by the way- Obama in his own book doesn't agree wtih you.  

[ Parent ]
So what's the magical formula (0.00 / 0)
for getting Republicans to sign on to liberal/progressive bills? You've outlined why you think Obama won't get it done -- give us a plausible outline of someone else (or a generic type of approach) who would.

If nobody can do it then, like the Jesse Jackson hosted game show on SNL way back when, the question is moot.  


[ Parent ]
A lot of time and effort (0.00 / 0)
There isn't a magical formula. That's the whole point. It will take a lot of time and effort.

[ Parent ]
You are sounding increasingly incoherent, bruh. (0.00 / 0)
I frankly have only the vaguest idea what you are getting at, other than your unshakable belief that you know better than anyone else.  I am stating that when 70% of poll respondents say Bush is doing a lousy job, that means they have seen through his self-serving avoidance of responsibility for how screwed up things are. The fact that we are past the 49/49 standoff is strongly indicated by the things I cited.  

The explanation of how to address the GOP?  I said, "All we have to do to have a tidal wave election is constantly re-iterate and prove the point that Bush's fuckups were eagerly and enthusiastically supported by the Repig Congress and Senate, Repig party officials, and Repig propagandists everywhere."  Not simple enough for you? Try this. GOP = Bush.  Bush lies.  The GOP lies.

As for the messiah complex, I said clearly that Obama's arrival on the scene was probably co-incidental. You can't possibly know the process by which someone you don't personally know went through to arrive at support for Obama. Therefore, accusing them of being a worshipper without other indications is bogus. It's really just a way of saying you're better than they are.

Why resuscitate what leadership?  Who are returning?

I suppose you mean that the flaw in my argument is that the same people who supported Bush are now not supporting him. Notice that you are the one who said they can't be trusted, not me.  I think they can make good decisions about politics if they are paying attention, and if they have good information.  They are now.  They weren't before. Different situation = different outcome.

As for reaching across the aisle, I certainly am not in favor of anything like that.  Obama talks about that.  I think that is the least attractive thing about him other than the blind devotion some people give him.

You are arguing with some kind of straw-man generic Obama supporter, not with me.  And I have to tell you that puzzling out your inarticulate comments is really too much work.


[ Parent ]
And please explain (0.00 / 0)
how a 'true progressive' placates the jackals?

Either way, a few Repubs are going to have to crossover. With Obama, the number is likely fewer due to his coattails and his broad electoral victory will provide a big boost and/or cover to moderate Repubs (the Hagels, Collins, and Snows of the Senate) for crossover votes.

Again -- how does the True Progressive win these votes?  


[ Parent ]
A response (0.00 / 0)
a) What coattails? You seem to be miss using that word. What evidence do you have of an impending coattail? THe primary turnout in red states? Do you think we will win those states in the GE?

b) What previous behavior by the GOP or the base suggests that they are open to what you are saying? What reason would they have to be open to what you are saying since they know they have everything to gain from our failure?

c) As a corrolary, do you think the American people will accept from a Pres. Obama that the reason why he's unable to be post partisan is an obstructionist GOP when he said that he would move the country beyond that?

The problem you face is that your argument is internally inconsistent when people start to ask the hard questions. You can not simply avoid them. How do we address the GOP as we know from recent example they are going to be? What in their behavior- FISA, SCHIP, etc suggests any reason to think they will change?


[ Parent ]
Speaking of inconsistent (4.00 / 1)
First of all, if we're going to argue this honestly then it has to be at the proper conceptual level. This is not just about Obama, obviously, but about Obama v. Hillary. So every question you are asking must also be asked of Hillary.

So now I'll respond to your arguments in order.

A) No, most of the states we will not win in the general but that is separate from the coattails issue. He is going to help downticket candidates by 1) not being Hillary and 2) increasing turnout. As for evidence, that argument has been made well here and elsewhere hundreds of times. I recommend Poblano's Daily Kos diaries -- you want evidence, just head there.

B)This must be set against the Hillary alternative. After all, she will face just as much intransigence, if not more, from Day One. Let's face it: she's going to face full-throttle, round-the-clock, Dan-Burton-shooting-pumpkins-in-the-backyard intransigence. I find this line of attack, given our current choice of candidates, a tad ironic. And I've already answered your question: the crossover votes will come from the relatively moderate Senators with a history of occasional crossing over.

C)Similar corollary holds for Hillary: why did you bother running if you knew the Repubs would fight you to a standstill? This is less likely to come true under Obama and if there were to be gridlock at some point then, yes, I think people might take his side given that Dem policies tend to be fairly popular.


[ Parent ]
A response (4.00 / 1)
a) No, this is about Obama. Talking about Clinton is  a deflection. It doesn't answer how within the context we can ensure more responsiveness from Obama to say "but he's better than Clinton." It's an irrelevant retort designed mostly to stir emotions in the reader. If your position is valid, it should be valid on its own terms and not just in comparison to the alternative. I am not doing a least of two evils analysis even if you want this to be because ultimately the buck has to stop with  Obama, not with Obama compared to Clinton.

b) Show me polling data that confirms your contentions about coattails. It's not enough to make a bare assertion with me  and expect me to believe it. This sounds more like stuff you tell yourself to justify why you choose one centrist over another. I could just as easily claim there will be less of a coattail due to the race gap. And, if that argument has been made- link to it. I read both Daily Kos and Open left on a daily basis. I've not seen anyone write on this particular discussion. If you are right, then it shold be fairly easy for you to demonstrate your position.

c) As I said above- this is classic Obama supporter thesis: hate Clinton=Obama is a better candidate. sorry, but you aren't talking to a Clinton or Obama supporter so you are going to have to do better than that. Or probably not becuase honestly i dont expect answers to my questions. I just expect to demonstrate that you don't have them. However, I would love for you to prove me wrong. Show me this isn't what I think it is.

d) again, no proof offer for your last post. Just bare assertion. And that's mostly what passes for analysis here with many of you in a nutshell- what yo uwould like to believe by your own self referenc rrather than what you can show to those who don't see it.


[ Parent ]
Geez (4.00 / 1)

I'm sorry but this is NOT just about Obama. You responded to my post, which asked the question, "How does the True Progressive get these votes?"

Here is a link to Poblano's research on coattails:http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/11/1165/53154/247/454354 since you are apparently incapable.

For each of your points I responded not only with responses regarding Clinton but straight up Obama-related ones as well. You're welcome to not believe them.

As for the final paragraph, do I have to look up the votes of the Collins and Snows of the world or are you really that stubborn? And are you asking me to prove my guesses of what will happen in an unprecedented future hypothetical situation?

My bottom line: sure, effective governance by Obama is going to be problematic for reasons that you and others have pointed out. No problem. I got it. It's a good point. I just don't happen to agree. Obama's got a better chance at effective governance than either Hillary or the non-available but pure True Progressive.

And since your rude responses have given me quite a headache, I consider myself done with this matter.


[ Parent ]
It's funny how you and others consider directness (0.00 / 0)
to be rude.

I haven't once been rude to you. I simply am not an Obama supporter so I don't feel the need to spare your feelings in telling I find your arguments to be bunk. Rudeness is calling you names for no good reason or saracasm or any of the number of attacks I have gotten for disagreement.

The irony of course if that if you can't handle my relatively tame disageeement how are you going to handle the GOP?

You linked to a diary, for example, that argues Obama has coattails, but what does the diary use as evidence? You would have a better shot if you didn't post a diary claiming Obama will help us in the GE because he won Democrat primaries in MS, AL, NE, etc.  and, therefore, one can extrapolate what that means for his chances of helping down ticket in the GE in those states. Do you really believe your argument makes any sense? Do you not see the flaw in the correlation?

But, I know, I know. To point this out to you is rude.


[ Parent ]
The answer to your reasonable question about... (0.00 / 1)

....answering you vs. The GOP is gonna be something like,

'Progressives are backstabbers! They won't support Obama against the GOP because they are pissed Hillary/Edward/Dodd/Gavel/Kucinich didn't win!

Obama supporters are masters of the Dolchstoss.

It's always gonna be me or you who are to blame!

As for poblano....

Guy is a true waste of time.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
"Guy is a true waste of time." (0.00 / 0)
Tell us, oh god-like ego.  Why is he a waste of time?  What's wrong with his methodology?  What's wrong with his data? What's wrong with his analysis?  We are awaiting your awsome words, oh god-like ego. Or is it just that you only approve of what you yourself say?

[ Parent ]
Because you can't extrapolate what he's trying to extrapolate (0.00 / 0)
in the diary above if that's what you two are talking about. It's just over the top to claim because someone one won in a democratic primary even one with independents that means they will win the general or affect the general in those states that are solidly red states. you people need to come back down to reality about where Obama has a shot of winning and/or helping down stream.  

[ Parent ]
Right. So look at the turnout numbers. (0.00 / 0)
If more people vote in a given state's Democratic primary than do in the Repig primary by a very large margin, oh, say, 2.5 to 1, is that an indication that the Democrat just might have more support in that state than the Repig?  I sure think it is, and while it may not be conclusive, I think it is a very clear sign of what's to come.  Notice that in the diary we were discussing, the writer says, "What does that mean for the general?  I don't know." He's not extrapolating.  And saying his work is worthless is just snark.

[ Parent ]
Your Farrakhan concern trolling (0.00 / 0)
not to mention anything about his sex life or whatever else, is pathetic.

[ Parent ]
succession (0.00 / 0)
Being President is actually a very dangerous job, with 4 Presidents shot and killed in office, slightly less than 10% of all Presidential officeholders.  The VP pick is important simply because of this possibility.  It's rare, but sometimes the VP becomes the P.

physical appearance as multifunction dogwhistle (4.00 / 2)
I may be dipping my toe into dangerous waters here, but Obama's multi-ethnic physical appearance (which we process subconsciously) functions as a dogwhistle to both progressive voters (who value diversity) and Broderites (who value synthesis). Therefore, it's easy for many progressives to imagine/believe Obama is a progressive (despite the lack of evidence) because, to them, he LOOKS like their idea of what "progressive" is. Same goes for centrist unity types, albeit to a lesser degree. I think they get off more on his bipartisan rhetoric.

I'm not being critical or snarky here (nor am I race-baiting), just trying to help explain one of the more inexplicable occurrences of the primary season season, this "dog whistle discrepancy" as Chris so aptly puts it.


A diarist over at Daily Kos before it went over the deep end (4.00 / 2)
Who like me is African American asked similar questions. She also rephrased it (I believe her name was Shanikka??? Not sure if that was her or someone else). What would be the response of the average supporter to Obama's rhectoric if he were a white candidate? It didn't go over well.  

[ Parent ]
Obama is very consistant about... (0.00 / 0)
wanting to lead like Lincoln, meaning putting your political enemies in the cabinet and such.

Dick Lugar would at least get us a Dem Senate Appointment (unless i'm mistaken).

-C.


Indiana has a Republican Governor (0.00 / 0)
Although Mitch Daniels is up for re-election this year.  

[ Parent ]
Obama's mandate (4.00 / 1)
Look here
http://www.dailykos.com/story/...

That is Obama's mandate.

However also I would hasten to note that the media only cares about one thing.  Ratings.  They don't genuinely care about all of the positions that they argue for and will drop them in a second for something else with higher ratings.

So for them the strongest factor in who they like is who will draw ratings.  The second strongest is who is nicest to them.

The media cares not one whit about Obama's actual record except as far as media consolidation is concerned.  If he turns out to be liberal they wont care in the same way they didn't care that Bush turned out to be a conservative.  That is completely irrelevant to them.

I would also add a cautionary note on Hagel.  The blogosphere didn't come out for the majority whip that Pelosi wanted and as a result we have Steny Hoyer.  So, don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

The liberal wiki
Send an email to terra@liberalwiki.com


I'm not sure what you are saying (4.00 / 1)
What sort of mandate does high turnout give Obama?

I agree on media consolidation, and I imagine huge pushback on Obama if he were to start making that a central point of his campaign.

On the latter point, are you suggesting that if we stop Hagel from becoming Secratary of Defense, that Obama will just pick someone even worse? that seems extremely doubtful.
 


[ Parent ]
Well (0.00 / 0)
If you live in a place that conservative having that high turnout is nice because it means that you will probably actually get to choose between a democrat and a republican instead of a libertarian and a republican.

The point being that Obama is already shifting the center of the country to the left by helping democrats get elected.  

The latter point is not that Obama will pick someone worse.  It is that he will pick someone less effective.  We want Republicans to back ending the war and making ending the war the bipartisan answer will make it easier to end.  

Ending the war will be difficult and messy and it will have problems.  We want those to be bipartisan problems.

The liberal wiki
Send an email to terra@liberalwiki.com


[ Parent ]
Why would you think you will choose between (0.00 / 0)
 a Democrat and Republican simply because more conservatives show up? These comments are increasely bizzare. And yes, I grew up down South in a conservative enclave that last election voted 70 percent for Bush so I am going to need to have more details to understand your thinking. Also, what does "effective" mean to you? Effective for what purpose and to what end?

[ Parent ]
More conservatives? (0.00 / 0)
The extra turnout are not Republicans who just love how conservative Obama is.

As far as effectiveness goes I mean at shifting the country to the left.  Making liberal positions respected again.  I work at a pretty conservative place and I can already see it happening.

The liberal wiki
Send an email to terra@liberalwiki.com


[ Parent ]
So you are thinking there will some kind of extra (0.00 / 0)
turn out that will shift the votes in our favor in what districts? I am just curious which ones you think we are going to win because Obama is on the ticket. I grew up and was raised in the place you are talking about. You are going to have to give me more than "in my work place." that stuff may work on people who grew up or who live in a liberal enclaves but really it's not something I am going to believe because you say so. Show me data in the districts that matter.

[ Parent ]
PS Let me make something clear (0.00 / 0)
I do believe over a period of years that eventually these people can be reached in a substantive way. However the idea that one person is going to do that with what is mostly vague comments that doesn't threaten the world views of conservative leaning voters is just a bunch of feel good isms. You aren't challenging their views so of course they are going to like most people fill in the blank slate with what they want. That's not improving liberalism or progressivism. I remain pessimistic in the short term not only because of Obama, but because many of his supporters such as yourself say the things you say. You honestly think these are things that change over night due to one candidate? These are beliefs people have held for years. It takes time, and I don't see any willness to aknowledge that in all of this things have changed posts. Mostly because things havent' changed. If they had, he wouldn't have to use code words to conservatives to assure them that they are okay with being conservative.

[ Parent ]
You are assuming that it is changing because of (0.00 / 0)
one candidate.  In reality, it is changing because people are sick to death of Bush.  Obama may be tapping into that, but I don't believe he is causing it. He is just not bucking the trend, which Clinton does with her last name.

[ Parent ]
I assuming that you have no way of knowing that and that (0.00 / 0)
these things don't happen over night. I assuming that you are confusing a temporary situation wherein your candidate has gotten mostly positive press with what will happen in the GE. Of course people like what is mostly spun as postitive, but if you looka t the numbers right now out by Rammussen both Obama and Clinton are starting to lose to McCain because Obama is receiving for the first time some serious negative press. I am saying that many of you have been living in a fantasy bubble for over a year now. Its time to come out of it and coome back to reality wherein the GOP won't lie down, the press will attack Obama, race will matter, and any number other things have been taking off hte table due to your own fears and need to feel better about the times in which we live.

[ Parent ]
The polling numbers (0.00 / 0)
have said for a good long while that people are sick of Bush and his administration.  The key is to make them understand that Bush is the apotheosis of conservatism.  If that connection is made, being sick of him translates to being sick of Repigs in general.  

Rasmussen in my opinion is one of the two least reliable polling organizations. Nobody says the GOP will lie down.  The press probably will attack Obama.  I think race matters less now than anytime in my lifetime, but it still matters to some cretins.  Your constant attribution of motives to people you don't know is just vulgar.


[ Parent ]
The trick is to destroy McCain (0.00 / 0)
and build up our nominee. Bush is a part of that. But it can not end there because of McCain's narrative as being set a part from the GOP. Even now, the press and the public eats that shit up. I have friends who are Obama supporters who say they wouldn't be bothered by a McCain presidency because they think McCain isn't like the other Republicans.

The post partisan shtick bothers me because it means Obama will always be held back by his supporters who want him to not attack with both barrels. He's tying one hand behind his back, when I want them both firmly grabbing the seat of the Presidency from McCain.

Your whining about my being 'vulgar' is a waste of your typing. Don't waste my time with it. If you think I am vulgar, then you are not ready for the GOP. It's that simple.


[ Parent ]
Incidentally, in terms of fairness, I've seen (0.00 / 0)
some blog posts by Clinton supporters saying they will support McCain over Obama, and I equally I attack their stupidity. We can't afford another 4 much less 8 years of the GOP. That's my bottom line.  

[ Parent ]
running mate (0.00 / 0)
If Obama picks a centrist running mate, then I'll be a monkey's butt. I just don't see it.

I hold to my prediction that it'll be Edwards.

The truth about Saxby Chambliss


Obamamaniacs (0.00 / 0)
While we're realizing some major problems here in terms of policy, I note the Obamamanics are volunteering, making calls and doing GOTV in Texas.

I don't know about you but because of some other positions I never even considered volunteering for the Hillary campaign so here we are with this cult army going on and policy that people are realizing is not Progressive.

Should everybody jump and run to Texas and get on the phone at this late date?

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


Stop referring to Obama People as "Cultists" (0.00 / 0)
It's rude, untrue, and it sounds like a Rovian talking point. You help no one by doing this. It only placates some, and offends others, leading to a net negative at the end of the day. It is not helpful in any way, shape, or form, so please stop using it.

Former Edwards Supporter, Obama Supporter since January 30, 2008

[ Parent ]
get over yourself (0.00 / 1)
it's what anyone is who ignores positions.

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
Centerpiece of Progressivism (0.00 / 0)
should be Ethics and Transparency in Government coupled with a more participatory and politically active populace.  That is the what the Obama campaign revolves around.  It will transform our country and transform the notion of Progressivism away from partisanship and toward real Progress.

[ Parent ]
transparent (0.00 / 0)
to have a bunch of economic advisers ignoring the impeding economic tsunami is not progressive.  Sorry.  

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
That's all you (0.00 / 0)
gotta do to be a cultist -- 'ignore positions'?

Good gawd, that's the human condition.

Ich bin ein Cultiner!


[ Parent ]
Don't worry Matt, (2.00 / 4)
Robert is using it because it is an easy talking point, filled with connotations which deny him the need to use factual argument. When he is called on it, all he can do is accuse me of being "full of myself" (what that means in the context of myself asking him to stop using a vile and worthless insult is beyond me), and then, once again, give another insult that is so full of negative connotations he doesn't have to use any factual arguments.

Basically, what this implies is that Obama supporters aren't actually basing their views on his positions, but are rather simply following him as a Cult of Personality. Besides tying into the general narrative of Obama support as a "cult," this also has the advantage of generalizing Obama supporters so much, that it is more difficult to refute, more so than factual points anyway. To make this assumption is not only quite elitist (Only THEY know what they're talking about, Obama supporters are simply foolish masses tricked by Obama's charm), it also removes the argument from a constructive debate on positions and tactics, and pushes it instead to a game of name calling, devoid of any fact or rational argument. Once again, this is a very Rovian tactic ("Flip Flopper"), and should not be used by members of the Progressive movement. If you would like to talk about Health care, that's fine (and in fact, I would concede that Hillary has an advantage here, being better versed on the subject after so many years of involvement with it), but this worthless name calling help no one, and so I once again, I ask all who participate in it to stop.

Former Edwards Supporter, Obama Supporter since January 30, 2008


[ Parent ]
you are (0.00 / 0)
because you spam comment anyone who in the least questions Obama and you also troll rate people at nausuem.  I'd say that's pretty programmed.  I love you Jodie, yes I do, we all love you Jodie.

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
Let's take a look (0.00 / 0)
at what you have said. First, that I spam anyone who in the least questions Obama. Well, by definition, I'm not spamming anyone, as I am having a discussion with people. Spamming would be if I just wrote random words up and wasted space. I'm not doing that, as I am actually making arguments. If you don't like that I'm deconstructing your rhetoric, that's fine, but that act is not the definition of spam. Beyond that, I don't even respond to most critiques of Obama, as that would take forever to do (go ahead, look at all of the anti-Obama posts in this comment section. I've only responded to a few), and responded to you not for an attack on Obama, but for a false generalization of Obama supporters as a whole.  

Second, I don't "troll rate at nausuem" (and for the record, it's "ad nauseum"). I simply troll rate when someone is doing just that, being a troll. If I troll rate anyone with whom I disagree, why have none of your posts been troll rated? Because, for example, the only post I troll rated in this thread (and I don't usually troll rate anyway), was one in which a person insulted Matt Stoller's intelligence, which is an ad hominem attack that is irrelevant to the discussion at hand (ACitizen troll rated it as well, and he isn't exactly an "Obama cultist").

In conclusion, think before you accuse people of things, because it might stop you from making false accusations. And, for the third time, stop accusing people who support Obama of being a part of some brainless cult. I don't know why this isn't hitting home, but perhaps the third time will be the charm.

Former Edwards Supporter, Obama Supporter since January 30, 2008


[ Parent ]
Obamamanic (0.00 / 0)
Cult, primitive brain, irrational exuberance, i.e. mass psychology and media manipulation.   I call it as I see it.  Very cult like as noted by your constant comment spam on anyone who challenged anything Obama does...and gets so offended when there are many people noting the cult like effect of the Obamamaniacs, including many main stream press articles.

This isn't your blog if you haven't figured it out and I can state my opinion on some of this if I wish.    Complain to the blog owner if you don't like it so much, but you are the only one constantly whining at me.   Deal with this as my opinion as noted by your complete upset reaction when I posted simply quotes from Obama's economic advisers and his own policy statements.  People who cannot be objective and deal with something as objective/factual as direct quotes I would say are operating in the primitive brain, i.e. the cult brain or the mass psychology brain, i.e. Obamamania.  

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


[ Parent ]
You are assuming (0.00 / 0)
facts not in evidence, namely that your process of evaluation is better than others' because they reach a different conclusion than you . You are name calling people who by and large are on your side, but who have chosen a different candidate than you. Your ego is leading you to assume that you are better, i.e., more rational, better informed, and less subject to a masquerade than others, just because you disagree with them.  This behavior is disagreeable.  I'm with Jake.  You should knock it off.

[ Parent ]
Progressive VP Choice? (0.00 / 0)
Obama has implied several times he'll probably go with a VP who has serious foreign affairs/military experience.  If that's the way he goes, who exactly would be the Progressive choice?

Where has he said that? (0.00 / 0)
I'm genuinely curious. I'd really like to see that comment.

As for who that would be, I'm not sure off hand. Maybe Zinni?


[ Parent ]
I think it was on (0.00 / 0)
Meet The Press with Tim Russert.  

[ Parent ]
As an Obama supporter (0.00 / 0)
I hope not Zinni.  He's expressed a strong disposition towards what he called the "Lugar-Hagel-Powell" foreign policy approach, which doesn't reflect nearly enough upon the change I think Obama could bring to American foreign policy (especially relative to Bush, and a lesser extent HRC).

[ Parent ]
Is this how progressives pick a president???? (4.00 / 1)
Obamabots are just now asking what kind of president Obama will be? LOL. WOW. This is somewhat shocking, perhaps you need to spend more time watching his brainwashing music videos...OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA

Why ask tough questions about the kind of president he will be...wait...wait...just listen "OBAMA OBAMA"!

Obama...good....Obama ...great..HILLARY bad...bad Hillary...must defeat HILLARY...ask questions later...get OBAMA elected....

I hate to say it but i have a feeling buyers remorse might kick in sooner then later....LOL.


Read The Label (0.00 / 0)
If you read "The Audacity of Hope", you find something of considerably more substance than the usual politician's autobiographical whitewash.  To sum up how Obama defines "bi-partisan": Most of the absolutist positions of both wings are not just wrong, but logically indefensible.  They were staked out as bargaining positions long ago, and inherited by people who accept them uncritically as gospel.

Because of this, the contest has become which incredibly boneheaded but ideologically pure course we should follow, rather than what is true, appropriate, or actually effective.

Not all conservatives are dishonest trolls or stupid dupes.  Most of them hold positions out of genuine principle.  But political discourse has become kabuki theater, where both sides pretend the sky will fall if they don't get their way.  The Republicans have just had better stage managing and direction lately, substituting a progressive brand of political stupidity will not be an improvement.  It will merely feed the cycle with positive feedback until one extreme or the other breaks it permanently.


that's nice (0.00 / 0)
ain't got nothing to do with actual politics in the US, but it sure makes you feel like he's even handed even when not.  

[ Parent ]
by the way- give some concrete examples of which (0.00 / 0)
what you just wrote has happened on a consistent basis. that should be an easy task given your claims and that of his book.

[ Parent ]
I do believe we've got some sort of idiotarian.... (0.00 / 0)

....if you check this individual's sig line I think we can see that he belongs to the, 'They all do it party....'

Nice for him because he can always be 'right'....

But really this sort of thing just makes me: Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


[ Parent ]
The funny thing is if he had said (0.00 / 0)
both parties can be corrupted or have officials who are corrupted he wouldn;'thave gotten an argument from me. I think what's really happening is a conflation of issues. Ie, the conflation of corrupted officials with partisanship. otherwise, his post makes no factual sense at all. one problem with face is that people make shit up, and they will fight to the death to believe what they have made up no matter what anyone says or any facts against it. and the fact a mass of people believes it just makes them absolutely certain its true. its the psychology, and no politician can say to them "hey you are just making this stuff up. it aint what happened"

[ Parent ]
absolutist positions??? (0.00 / 0)
Like those who will not vote for anyone who voted for the Iraq war but will vote for someone who voted to fund the war????

Hummm.


[ Parent ]
Please educate me . . . (4.00 / 1)
. . . does anyone doubt that the number one line of attack against Obama in the general election will be that he's too liberal? It's already been telescoped: "He talks a good game about bipartisanship, but he's got the most liberal voting record in the United States Senate. He hasn't split with the base of the Democratic Party on any significant issue."

Do you want Obama to lose to McCain? Is that the progressive solution? Yes, all of us might wish that Obama had run on the Kucinich's platform, and in doing so, had sprinkled his magic dust all over it such that a clear majority of Americans were now demanding Single Payer Health Care, Immediate Withdrawal of all U.S. Troops from the Middle East, etc. But the fact is that Kucinich represents a liberal, congressional district (and will be fighting to even hold on to that) and you are hard pressed to find a true "progressive" who has won statewide office in any but the smallest, and bluest of states.

I don't give a flying f*ck who Obama picks as VP so long as somebody smarter than me has determined that it gives him the best possible chance of winning in November. After 7+ years of the chimp, I would literally be happy with Daffy Duck in the White House, if it meant that McCain doesn't win. That Obama might do something progressive if he wins the election would just be icing on the cake.

In any event, for myself, I do think that, assuming he wins the nomination, he'd be as progressive of a major party nominee for the White House that I've seen in my lifetime. No he does not tow the "progressive party line" whatever that might be. Instead, he's a thinking person, who forms his own judgments based on a honest look at the various alternatives. The Beltway types like him because they appreciate that kind of open-minded thought thought instead of knee-jerk hewing to ideological positions. But he is progressive at his core, in that everything is looked at through a prism of how do we use an active government to address issues faced by regular people in our society. Again, just look at his voting record, his biography, his campaign strategy.

But really, the time for these discussions was months ago when progressives were deciding about whether to go with Obama or Edwards or Clinton, and/or months from now after he gets elected. Sniping at him from the left between now and November seems just silly to me. Like it or not, and whether or not he's throwing us sufficient amounts of "red meat", if we want to win the White House, we're going to have to get behind our candidate 150% and try to push him over the top.  


We had that discussion. (0.00 / 0)
Edwards won.  Unfortunately, the electorate at large didn't see it that way.  So now it's going to be Obama vs. McCain. Easy choice.

[ Parent ]
I find it very hard to get behind Obama (0.00 / 0)
I dont know him and what i do know about him I just cant stand. I dont want a preacher as president...wasn't Bush enough??? I just don't see how Obama represents me! I am not a rich white liberal, and i am not black. I am trying to be successful in a very difficult economy and nothing he has said yet has resonated with me.

Maybe i need to watch more of his fancy celebrity music videos and chant "O- BAAAMMM-AAAAAA"  Is that progressive and liberal? A music video with celebrities???


[ Parent ]
If Zell Miller were the Democratic nominee (0.00 / 0)
(and good god, that's a horrible image,) the number one Republican slur against him would be that he's too liberal. Such an attack is so generic as to be meaningless.

That aside, your arguments are ridiculous in the context of what you're referring to. Chris isn't advocating for a commitment to abolishing the death penalty or anything similarly progressive but unachievable at present. He's arguing that Obama's cabinet choices will reveal how he plans to govern, and that if those picks are people like Ben Nelson and Dick Lugar then progressives are in trouble.

Let's leave aside your bit of High Broderism about being a thinking person, because I'd like to believe you didn't mean to insult me. I agree with you that he's quite progressive.

But unquestioning obedience and service isn't. Reasoned and measured criticism from the left not only takes the sting out of the tired old liberal attack, it also helps to make sure that he governs like he really should, not like David Ignatius wants him to. Working hard for him is fine, but that doesn't mean you should abandon your right to criticise him.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
Chris, I disagree about the meaning of the VP choice. (0.00 / 0)
A moderate versus progressive choice of a running mate doesn't tell us that much about Obama's intentions, and I wouldn't read too much into it if he chooses a moderate.  I, too, tend to be skeptical, but I give Obama credit for knowing how to finesse things.  Once we know more about which side of the fence he comes down on, we might appreciate that.  The vagueness with which he has exploited his "Hope/Change" theme shows, what seems to me, as a high level of political craftiness.

Running mates are often chosen to balance tickets out.  He might choose a moderate or Bush dog just to finesse his way to victory.  Recall Kennedy's choice of LBJ, who, at the time, was not exactly a friend of the Kennedys or civil rights or that whole branch of liberalism.  It was an uneasy fit but it served its purpose.

I just hope he doesn't choose Hillary.  It's not that I hate Hillary.  I just want the Clinton machine hangers-on to seek a new political center, hopefully one that is more progressive and less triangulating.  If they lose their heir-apparent, they might finally discover their unused backbones.


The VP Choice Says Nothing About How He Will Govern (0.00 / 0)
And everything about how he perceives he can get elected.  For this reason, it is more likely to be a Webb than a Feingold or Brown.

[ Parent ]
Assuming Webb had anything to offer, you would be right. (0.00 / 0)
In reality, he doesn't. He is Repig lite, a guaranteed loser against a real Repig.  He might not cause the ticket to crash, but I'm betting he would.  In addition, there is no way message discipline can be imposed on him.  He's a hothead who can't stop himself from mouthing off.  And what's even worse, he doesn't even try to back up his intemperate words.

[ Parent ]
There it is again - (0.00 / 0)
that one sentence that says when we get Obama elected we can hold his feet to the fire and get him to do what we want.  The likes of you are not going to run this guy, he is just using you the same way he used the anti-war crowd to get elected to the senate, then voted to give Bush every penny he wanted.  This is the guy who spent his entire corigraphed life side stepping a commitment to any substantive issue. And please don't tell me about "the speech".  So when he gets the power, he'll be another Geo. Bush, a immature, nasty, arrogant, vindictive decider. There are already rumors of his arrogance and vindictiveness.  
For the sake of this democracy wouldn't your time be better spent discussing the implications of Obama's most recent and blatant "dog whistle" to Canada on NAFTA.  What does that say about your candidate?  And don't tell me Canada retracted the story.  BTW what should you call a dog whistle that everyone can hear, that, in fact is so loud that true believers have to take off their ears and bury them in order not to hear.  
You had better be right about Obama, or you will have a lot to answer for, all the generations of Americans who fought, suffered and sacrificed to get us to this moment.
All the millions of Americans who continue to dread an illness or accident that will put them at the mercy of the health care mafia.  
Oh, Obama will give us a change in our health care system, but it will pale in comparison with what it should be.  Insurance and pharma can smell the wind as well as most of us can and will concede an inch in order to secure their profits for another 100 years.
There is an Irish story about mill workers.  The owner of a mill overheard his workers talking about their wages compared with mill profits and how a union could help them.  So he goes into his office and uses his loud speaker system to blast his radio throughout the factory.  The workers ask him to turn it down and he says "NO", its his radio and his factory and he'll do what he likes.  
So after a few days the workers form a delegation to go to the owner and demand he turn down the radio - again he shouts "NO", this time louder.  Finally after a few weeks the workers can't bare the noise any longer and threaten to walk out if the radio is not turned down.  But still the owner won't budge.  
So the works reluctantly walk out, they have families and responsibilities and need their jobs, so it is a difficult choice.  The owner lets them stand outside for a few hours then goes out and says "alright, I give up, I'll turn the radio down if you will come back to work"  And the workers cheer for each other and shout of their victory and go back to work feeling righteous and satisfied, thinking they really won something.  
The owner goes back into his office and knows who won.  He won't have to face the prospect the workers agitating for a fair share of the profits for another few years, and then there will be a new crop of workers he can fool.


What Does Universal Healthcare Mean? (0.00 / 0)

by Dr. Carolyn
March 2nd, 2008 @ 11:54 pm
A Canadian Physician's Experience of the Current Healthcare System in America

I am near the end of another busy shift in a major Canadian emergency department. The nurse in charge asks me to see two women in the minor care area - a daughter and her elderly mother. Both of them are in tears and pale with fear. I go into the room that they are in and immediately observe the elderly mother is holding her acutely swollen wrist. I am not surprised that she is crying; however, her daughter's tears take me aback. The first words out of her daughter's mouth are that they are American and do not have insurance. They were visiting our city and her mother slipped on the water front pier, badly injuring her wrist.

In Canada, we have the "Canada Health Act" which requires that all residents of a province or territory [Canada] be accepted for health coverage. This means that every Canadian, regardless of the amount of money they have, receives quality healthcare that is within their financial means. Everyone is covered. If someone genuinely cannot afford healthcare, they are covered by the province's social assistance program.

Not fully grasping the extent of what not having health insurance in America means, I begin assessing the mother. Immediately, I offer her something for pain before she heads off for an x-ray. Her response again puzzles me: "How much will that cost"?

I have no idea. I just show up for work and do that best job that I can. I, like many of my colleagues, are oblivious to the costs because cost is not an issue for Canadian patients. Before the patient allows me to do anything, she insists that I find out what she will be charged. In this particular emergency department, foreign patients who visit the hospital are charged up front. In this case, I manage to waive all costs because the thought of contributing to someone's financial ruin in the name of compassionate healthcare is too disturbing for me to comprehend.

I assured the injured mother that our priority in the emergency department is to take care of her - not get paid for rendering emergency care. After accepting medication for pain, I review the x-ray. Fortunately, all this patient will require is a cast. There is no need for surgery or bone setting. Recognizing that the supplies for taking care of her cast and medication are out of financial reach, I provide her with everything that she needs, free of charge. The two women leave the department extremely relieved. When I go home that night, I still feel nauseated by what I observed.

America, "the land of the free", has millions more people similar to the two that I took care of. I remember when I was training in the U.S. during a couple of months of elective time, I witnessed events that continue to disturb me to this day. I witnessed critically ill patients being seen by someone from the hospital's administration before being assessed by a nurse or physician. If the patient did not have the "correct" insurance plan, they would be shipped over to the "community hospital" before receiving any medical care.

I witnessed patients who were too sick to be transferred denied surgery or advanced care because the hospital would not get reimbursed. In another major U.S. hospital, I saw first hand how the administration makes up for patients who cannot pay. If a homeless person gets shot, they are well taken care of. Then, when someone with a sizable insurance plan comes to the hospital, they are over charged in an effort to compensate for the loss of earnings from the previous patient. I was told that sometimes the insurance company pays everything asked of them, while other times they question the extra costs and the bill is subsequently adjusted.

Our healthcare system in Canada is not perfect either. Emergency department over crowding is a major issue. There are waiting lists in several parts of Canada for what are termed "elective" surgeries. Such procedures include hip replacements, knee replacements, back surgery, and certain cancer related surgeries. Having money does not bump anyone to the front of the line. However, people who do have money often opt to go to the U.S., or elsewhere, to have their procedure. Our system is getting better due to Canadians demanding, en mass, for improvements. Emergency department overcrowding was a major national issue during the last national elections.

This begs the question: Why aren't Americans demanding affordable and compassionate quality healthcare for everyone?

The only candidate in the 2008 Presidential Election who has significant experience and expertise in reforming America's healthcare system is Senator Hillary Clinton. Keep in mind that I am a Canadian physician. I have nothing to gain by endorsing anyone. I am writing this here because I never want to see a patient like the elderly woman who broke her wrist in tears because of fear, and not pain, again. No one should be denied quality healthcare. Becoming ill or injured should not become a point of financial sacrifice or ruin.

Instead of advocating for amending the Constitution of the United States to conform to "God's standards" (whatever that means), Americans and their government should demand to amend their Constitution to conform to human rights standards. The only candidate who has shown an ability to do this, again, is Senator Clinton. She has already demonstrated the ability to pass legislation, which provides free healthcare to anyone who became ill or injured as a result of helping at Ground Zero of the World Trade Center, following the September 11th, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Her critics fault her for not making significant gains in reforming the healthcare system during the 1990's. However, every major system over haul, every great invention, takes trial and error. Thomas Edison did not achieve light with his very first prototype. However, thank goodness he did not stop trying. Senator Clinton is a fighter and will not stop either - that we can all be certain of.

In conclusion, Americans must ask themselves what their priority issues are. Nebulous concepts such as "change" or "unity" don't pay the healthcare bills. However, a well laid out healthcare plan, which covers everyone, will


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