Michigan Needs To Hold a Caucus

by: Chris Bowers

Thu Mar 06, 2008 at 16:26


As Mike noted below, there is a lot of talk today about Michigan and Florida holding new elections. However, I'm not sure if I buy the new openness from Florida, considering the caveat they have attached to a new primary:

Crist told reporters at a news conference that he would be open to another primary, but not if Florida has to foot the bill, estimated by the Florida Democratic Party to be $25 million. He said he discussed the option with Sen. Bill Nelson, the state's senior Democrat. "He said the only way to consider the possibility of that is to have the Democratic National Committee pay for it," Crist said.

This is absurd. A new primary in Florida would generate more than $25M in revenue for the state, and Crist both and Nelson know it. It just wouldn't generate more than $25M in tax revenue. The state of Florida would lose money, but overall it would be a net gain for the population.

Clearly, Crist is just trying to appear as though he is open to a new primary, but does not really mean it. Forcing the DNC to shell out $25M would cripple it for the general election against John McCain, who Crist endorsed. This is not an attempt to have a new vote--it is an attempt to hand the election to John McCain. Of course Howard Dean would refuse this "offer," and of course Crist knows Dean would refuse that "offer." As such, Crist can appear open to a revote, because he knows it will never happen.

What does need to happen is for Michigan to hold a new primary or caucus. My delegate counter shows just what an abomination of democracy it would be for the current Michigan delegation to determine the nomination:

Open Left Democratic Delegate Count
Type Obama Clinton Other 50% +1
Pledged 1,381.5 1,234.5 26 1,627
Super 202 241 353 NA
Total 1,583.5 1,475.5 379 2,025
Florida 71 113 26 NA
Total 1,654.5 1,588.5 405 2,130
Michigan 1 80 76 NA
Total 1,655.5 1,668.5 481 2,208.5

For Clinton to narrowly eek out a victory by means of the current 80-1 Michigan delegation would be horrendous. Fortunately, it looks like a new Michigan caucus could go forward:

Michigan Democrats are discussing holding a "firehouse" contest in May or June that would be an alternative to a traditional primary or caucus and run by the state party, said a Democratic Party official who has been part of the discussions. "Firehouse" contests usually have fewer polling places and shorter voting hours than traditional state-run primary elections.

The party official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the discussions are private, said there was general consensus that it could not be held at taxpayers' expense and would attempt to generate participation from about 1 million state Democrats.

I think seating Florida's delegation as is (105 Clinton, 67 Obama, 13 Edwards) and holding a new Michigan caucus (with 128 pledged delegates at stake) would be an acceptable compromise (more on my Florida position here). Clinton's advantages from the lack of campaigning in Florida would be cancelled out by Obama's advantage in caucuses. Hold the caucus on Saturday, June 7th, the same day as Puerto Rico, and just be done with the whole thing. This way, we can avoid the credentials committee, and probably have a nominee by June 8th, at the latest.

I know that two less-than-democratic contests don't make the overall nomination campaign an exercise in pure democracy, but consider the other options we face. There won't be a new vote in Florida, and all this new posturing for one is pretty much bullshit. Instead, from mid-June through late August, the nomination could be decided at the credentials committee, with none of the following outcomes against the rules:

There are a number of ways this could play out, and they are all "within the rules"

  • Status Quo. No delegates from Florida or Michigan.
  • The Credentials Committee seats one or both delegations as is. Totally within the rules. The Credentials Committee has the total power within the rules to seat or not seat any delegate as they choose, regardless of any previous DNC rules.
  • The Credentials Committee seats the delegates, but makes each delegate worth half a vote, essentially restoring the originally proposed 50% penalty. Totally within the rules.
  • The Credentials Committee seats the delegations, but makes sure they are split 50-50 between Obama and Clinton. Totally within the rules
  • Either state submits a new delegate selection plan to the DNC. It is approved, and new delegates are selected. Totally within the rules. (And Delaware supposedly did this in a previous election year).

Seating Florida's delegation and holding an early June, cost-effective, party-run Michigan caucus would be a lot better than having the national party twist in the wind for three months without a nominee while the obscure DNC credentials committee becomes the sole arbiter of democracy. This is hardly a perfect solution, but it would give us a nominee by mid-June (which isn't too bad), and also force the Clinton and Obama campaigns to organize everywhere (which is great). Not everyone, or even most people, will agree with this proposal, but it is the best, and most realistic, compromise solution I can think of.

Update: Ben Smith suggests it is possible to hold a new Florida primary for only $5 million. If that is the case, there should be sufficient money to pull it off if several groups all chip in.

Update 2: TNR reports that Michigan is very likely to hold a new caucus:

A member of the DNC's Rules And Bylaws Committee--the committee that stripped Florida and Michigan of its delegates for moving their primaries before February 5th--told me that Michigan plans to get out of its uncounted delegate problem by announcing a new caucus in the next few days.

"They want to play. They know how to do caucuses," the DNC source said. "That was their plan all along, before they got cute with the primary."

So, it looks like if we can come up with $5 million for a Florida mail-in primary, the problem will be solved. Good.  

Chris Bowers :: Michigan Needs To Hold a Caucus

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If we have redos in Michigan and Florida, this is probably what happens: (0.00 / 0)
1.  Obama wins Michigan big because of the large black vote.

2.  Hillary wins Florida because of old white people.  

I do think if they are both redone, Obama wins more delegates because I think he wins Michigan by a larger margin than she wins FL.

I they hold revotes or not, either way it's gonna get really fucking ugly.  This thing is gonna be ugly.  

The ways things are headed, we lose in November because there will be either butthurt white women out there or butthurt blacks and younger voters.  There's no way we can win in either case.

For some reason, it seems that Obama has some pathological and deep-seated psychological need for Republicans to like him.  Seriously.  It's weird.


butthurt? (0.00 / 0)
Not to focus on a side issue in your comment, but I've never heard the word "butthurt" before. I think I get it's meaning, but is it a new slang term or something?  

[ Parent ]
yeah, it's like totally emo, bro. (4.00 / 1)


For some reason, it seems that Obama has some pathological and deep-seated psychological need for Republicans to like him.  Seriously.  It's weird.

[ Parent ]
I've seen it before. (0.00 / 0)
It's a 4chan term.  4chan didn't even exist before 2003 AFAIK, when it was founded by someone from the somethingawful.com forums, and now it's probably the center of internet stupidity.  It's where the lolcats came from as well.  

[ Parent ]
you kids (0.00 / 0)
get off my lawn!!

[ Parent ]
For the record (0.00 / 0)
I recall using the word 'butthurt' many times in my early high school years. That was circa 1995.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
I point this out because... (0.00 / 0)
...it was before the Internet had an influence on popular vocabulary, and before emo came along and ruined youth culture (and music). It may have been a Beavis and Butthead term??

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
Butthurt (0.00 / 0)
An inappropriately strong negative emotional response from a perceived personal insult. Characterized by strong feelings of shame. Frequently associated with a cessation of communication and overt hostility towards the "aggressor."

[ Parent ]
I know the answers, but have to ask... (0.00 / 0)
There are millions of voters in late primary states who, because of frontloading, have never had a voice in choosing the party's presidential nominee. Do the "disenfranchisement" arguments we here from some quarters about Michigan and Florida mean we are gaining support for a national primary?

Does the answer that we are dealing with a unique circumstance of the 2008 cycle resemble the logic of Bush v. Gore, that is, let's agree we're not setting a precedent, we're just solving an isolated problem in a unique context?


better system needed (0.00 / 0)
I agree that a national primary or counting the popular vote from state primaries instead of assigning delegates would be a much better system. Hopefully there will be a change in the nomination rules for 2012. It's mindboggling we didn't ditch the electoral college after 2000.

[ Parent ]
The delegate allocation system needs to be trashed (4.00 / 1)
allocating delegates at the CD level makes absolutely no sense.  That so much hinges on a district having an odd number of delegates allocated to it makes even less sense.  When I explain the system to people, they are uniformly flabbergasted.

[ Parent ]
Sequenced primaries make little sense either (0.00 / 0)
A system that is designed to pick a nominee before millions have voted is, at the least, odd. Now, there could be an argument that a national primary will heavily favor incumbents, those with a lot of early money, etc.

But I'm hard-pressed to justify the existing system. I asked the questions because the arguments for Florida and Michigan all carry a critique of sequenced primaries, whether the MI/FL advocates know it or not.


[ Parent ]
That's the argument in fact for the current system (0.00 / 0)
The Democratic Party had a plan of four early states (Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, and Nevada) which taken as a whole were more geographically and demographically balanced than any one state could be, while at the same time being small enough that a grassroots candidate has a theoretical chance without having to pay for ads in huge media markets.

I lean toward opposing a national primary on purely practical grounds, since it requires coordination of 50 state legislatures and Michigan and Florida have shown us that the individual states are capable of breaking with pre-approved calendars.  I'd look upon efforts to create a national primary much more favorably if the DNC could show the ability to hold the line and punish Michigan and Florida, making enforcement of a national primary date seem more plausible.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
I disagree (4.00 / 1)
I don't like the idea of one, big, national primary.  I like the idea of starting small and building from there, primarily because of money.  This gives the small guy some chance to do well and build from it.  In the age of internet donations I think this is actually more true then in past generations.

[ Parent ]
One Other Thing That a National Primary Day Would Do (0.00 / 0)
In a contested presidential nomination race with 7-10 contenders, how often is someone going to get even 40%?  Rules like a 15% viability threshold for delegates are intended under the current system to prevent a couple of dopes from hanging around at 8-10% and preventing a clear winner.  If you think this is a fun campaign season, just wait until you have candidates with vote percentages of 27-26-21-16-7-2-1.

Yeah, I know you're going to say IRV, but it's not going to be implemented, at least not any of the first few go arounds.


Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both


[ Parent ]
I wouldn't mind the sequenced primaries (0.00 / 0)
if you didn't have IA and NH first, every single time.  I like the idea of a couple of small states getting th vet the candidates, retail-style, before they hit a national audience.  I just don't see why it has to be two very white, very rural states every time.  


[ Parent ]
odd delegate districts and two-person races (0.00 / 0)
It's worth remembering that in a three (or more) person race -- like we had before Edwards drops out -- the effect changes dramatically.  Then as long as three can hit 15%, three-delegate districts split equally, and it's the four-delegate districts than can split 2-1-1.  


New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.

[ Parent ]
Yes. (0.00 / 0)
and it's probably possible, in a scenario where the candidates have specialized regional bases of support, to have it work out that the weakest candidate of the three gets the most delegates.  This system is stupid.

[ Parent ]
The problem and the opportunity (0.00 / 0)
The problem is the same that plagues us in redistricting and campaign reform:  those who might vote for change are the ones who are in office under mechanisms that should be changed. What's in any of it for an incumbent?

This opportunity this year will come from mobilizing voters who, one way or the other, are going to be angry as hell at the outcome.


[ Parent ]
consistency needed (0.00 / 0)
If Michigan holds a revote, doesn't that eliminate any rationale for seating Florida's fake delegates? They have the same chance to hold a new vote that complies with the rules after all. Or to put it another way, if we're going to seat Florida's delegates anyway, why should Michigan bother holding a revote? I'm hoping and expecting the superdelegates will make this all academic after Pennsylvania when regardless of the popular vote Hillary will again fail to make significant inroads into Obama's large pledged delegate lead.

I know it isn't consistent (4.00 / 1)
But Florida and Michigan were not consistent anyway. In particular, Obama was not on the ballot in Michigan, but he was on the ballot in Florida.

I would be fine with a new caucus in Florida, I just don't think that is going to happen.  


[ Parent ]
Better idea (0.00 / 0)
Michigan holds a caucus or firehouse primary and gets all its delegates seated.  Florida doesn't and is penalized 50%.  They save money, they are heard, they just don;t count as much.  

That seems fair to me.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
See my comment below on vote-by-mail (0.00 / 0)
Vote-by-mail, despite its problems, is a much less expensive alternative and would be a decent patch in this situation.  It would tend to favor Hillary, as her people go through retirement homes making sure everyone has voted, but they can already do that as absentees.  Do this and you save enough money that you don't need to penalize them at all.

I speak only for myself, not for those voices in the next room that won't leave me alone.

[ Parent ]
A few reasons: (0.00 / 0)
1) A MI revote is possible, a FL revote is not

2) Every major candidate was on the ballot in FL, and not in MI.  No candidate campaigned in FL, so there was at least an approximately level playing field there

3) The argument that the no-campaigning bias cancelling out the caucus advantage above is something I hadn't thought of, but makes sense.

It's the best thing you can do, unless, of course, you can get the FL Dem party to pay for a firehouse caucus, almost along the lines of the LA Republican caucus.  But if the argument was that the original results were an abrogation of democracy, well.... I don't know if that's much better.


[ Parent ]
so there was at least an approximately level playing field there (0.00 / 0)
I would have to say Hillary Clinton has a decade or more of name recognition so it doesn't appear to me that the playing field was level at all. IMO

[ Parent ]
Obama had already had a bunch of very approving national coverage (4.00 / 1)
including pretty extensive coverage of his Iowa bounce as well as his South Carolina blowout and his name rec was nearly 100% by the time the Florida primary happened.  I said approximately equal, not equal.  And all I'm saying is that Florida was much, much less antidemocratic than Michigan was.    Not that it was completely fair.  

[ Parent ]
Agree (with redwards) (0.00 / 0)
If Michigan does a re-do in accord with Howie's rules, they get seated.  Same for Florida, which means they foot the bill.

If Florida does not pay for the mulligan, no seating.  Hard cheese, Florida.

Interesting how Nelson (Hillary surrogate) has joined Crist in supporting a do-over IF Howie pays for it.  Either a negotiating position or intentionally doomed set up for Hillary to lay claim to the delegates from previous vote.  Either way, skullduggery.


[ Parent ]
Or Florida is docked 50% (4.00 / 1)
As per one of the original plans.  i think that's what the GOP is doing, not that it matters.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
I think about 90% (0.00 / 0)
of the Michigan netroots agrees there ought to be a real election for our delegates.  The nation needs it and we need it to heal wounds and mobilize Democrats in the ways the rest of hte country has been mobilized by all the campaigns.

Oh, but HRC would stand a very good chance in Michigan in a caucus, esp after Obama's econ chief's comments on NAFTA and since Kwame hates Barack.  I'd say, about Ohio numbers 55-45 with HRC getting about 50 of the caucus-determined delegates and Obama 40.

West Michigan Rising: Progressives On the West-End of the Third Coast


Why does the Detroit Mayor hate Obama??? (0.00 / 0)
Maybe Kwame will be too busy fending off aligators biting his butt over sex, perjury and murder to be bothered with this election.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
well I suppose (0.00 / 0)
Obama would have a chance to clear the record up and of the reports showing that it was Clinton not Obama contacting Canada about NAFTA would gain traction by then.  Clearly, not everybody has heard of that yet...

[ Parent ]
She got 56% to no one - that can (4.00 / 1)
only go down with Obama on the ballot.

[ Parent ]
Credentials Committee (0.00 / 0)
CB:
New user, and love your analysis.  But I have one problem with it.  You keep presenting the Credentials Committee as if it makes the final decision on seating.  But I heard someone (and I believe it was Dean, who should know) state that the credentials committee only presents a report (or reports) to the entire convention to vote on.  And that if there's a difference of opinion in the committee (seems likely, no?), then the committee presents a majority report and a minority report, with the entire convention (at least those seated at the time) voting on it.

Can you comment on that?


In rare circumstances (0.00 / 0)
A minority report from the CC can be put to a floor vote at the convention. However, if we get to that point, then are are pretty much screwed no matter who is the nominee. So, it's not something I like to think about.  

[ Parent ]
Floor vote req'd on credential committee vote (4.00 / 1)
CB:
You say in "rare circumstances," a minority report gets put to a floor vote, but that's not what a commenter by the name of anonymous reports at Ambinder's site.  He says a 20% minority vote is sufficient.  And there's bound to be at least 20% die-hard HRC supporters on the Cred. Comm.

Not thinking about things you don't like to think about is rarely a good idea, especially if they seem likely.  Now, a revote (or 2) would avoid that scenario.  And if the idea of floor fight over seating Fla. and Mich. is unappetizing (which it is), it's time to make sure revotes happen.

BTW, BO would be at some disadvantage with revotes in June, given the large student populations in both states.


[ Parent ]
Who's in charge here? (0.00 / 0)
Chris, you have managed to come up with a few different solutions to various issues.  And yesterday the discussion about the unity ticket really got me thinking.  These are very well thought out compromises - that's what grown ups do when confronted with dilemmas.  They compromise.  But who is running this show?  I am starting to despair because I feel like there is no referee or ambassador who is working all these issues.  We, as a party, have got to figure out a way to seat MI and FL.  I think even more importantly, we need to figure out a way not to destroy ourselves while this all plays out.  John McSame is just loving it.

BTW, I advocate Obama do a few days worth of rallies in MI and FL just to get out in front of this thing and endear himself to the people a bit.

BTW, what happens with Edward's delegates in the case of FL?  in the case of Iowa?


The refs (0.00 / 0)
The crendtials committee and the superdelegates are supposed to act as refs. Overall, Nancy Pelosi (chair of the convention) and Howard Dean (chair of the DNC) are the two most powerful refs, with an emphasis on Pelosi.

Edwards delegates get to go to the convention, too. Just because their candidate dropped out does not void their legally and electorally earned right to attend as full voting members.  


[ Parent ]
That doesn't make me feel much better (0.00 / 0)
Dean and Pelosi have both been pretty quiet about all of this.  Maybe not quiet, but not specific about any solutions.  I'd like to believe they are doing a lot behind the scenes.

But let's just pretend that the unity ticket could be brokered.  It would be a be a very tough sell.  But we redo or compromise our way out FL and MI and agree that the winner of pledged delegages gets the top of the ticket.  I guess it would take an Al Gore type to broker the whole deal, eh?  I've just really become obsessed with the idea.  As much as I don't like Clinton, there seems to be a certain contstituencey that she has that Obama may not be able to garner.  And certainly as time goes on and more blows are exchanged, the likelihood of alienating people beyond repair goes up.


[ Parent ]
I Get the Sense that Dean Won't Compromise (0.00 / 0)
He seems to be threatening Michigan and Florida with the idea that the Credentials Committee will vote against the two rogue states.  It's an implied threat, but it's one with teeth, since Dean appointed a large enough percentage of the committee that, if it votes as a bloc, will control the outcome if the Obamamaniacs and the Clintonistas are split.  I think that Dean has made it pretty clear that he doesn't want those delegations seated, since he signed on to the plan to penalize the states with a loss of all and not just half of their delegates.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

[ Parent ]
One issue... (0.00 / 0)
I see is with this compromise is it's a compromise between two candidates, to try and save the party, when the ones who broke the rules are the states, and the ones who arguably suffered are the voters.  I'm not quite sure how you can say "okay Florida, we'll accept your election, but only if Michigan does a revote."  The two matter as a package for Obama and Hillary,  but the DNC is really bargaining two deals with two totally unconnected parties.  

The other thing is, while fair, this is probably the worst deal for Clinton imaginable.  Obama would stand a real chance of winning Michigan, since at at least 30% of likely voters would be black, and he'd only need around 38% of the non-black vote to eke out a win.   Regardless, her margin shrinks dramatically.  On the other hand, she'd still win a Florida re-vote.  She'd probably lose ten to twenty net delegates on Obama, but it would help her "big state winner" narrative, but she'd get the news cycle for a day, and she'd potentially get some MO if there were any contests left, or a convincing argument to make to superdelegates if it the pledged delegate count is close.  


Clinton thinks she owns MI.... (0.00 / 0)
NAFTA can and should be a huge deal in MI - particularly on the heels of the gazillion dollar deal the pentagon just gave to air bus.  There is hay to be made on trade.  

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  

[ Parent ]
Obama will have had (0.00 / 0)
a chance to clear up the NAFTA issue and the whole Canada thing before then as reports are now out showing that it was probably the Clinton campaign who contacted Canada in the first place.  It appears that story has not circulated widely enough yet.

[ Parent ]
Do I hear a second? (0.00 / 0)
Second!

I have relatives in both Michigan and Florida, and they're all steaming mad at their apparent disenfranchisement.  Waiting to settle this issue is not an option...

Join the California Nurses Association and National Nurses Organizing Committee in the fight for guaranteed healthcare on the single-payer model at www.GuaranteedHealthcare.org/blog


Suspect Obama would support and pay for this (0.00 / 0)
Obama would much rather have the Florida delegates seated as it stands than have a re-vote there, as simply seating the delegates provides no emotional momentum.  And given all the money he has, I wouldn't be surprised if he have enough to the  DNC to pay for this, as a win in MI would help him a great deal.

Clinton would have a hard time complaining, as seating the Flordia delegates as is would technically help her more than a re-vote there, probably, in terms of delegate count.

Note that since superdelegates are going to ultimately determine the winner, the Florida win already "counts" in some way, whether they are seated or not.  They are simply part of the moral and practical debate.


What? No. (0.00 / 0)
Why would Obama permit the seating of a net 40+ delegate gain for Hillary, when, as things stand, Dean has made it pretty clear what has to be done in order for either Florida or Michigan to take part in the convention?  

Michigan is already apparently making progress in that direction, so if Florida wants an invitation to the party, it can do the same.  If it intends to, it better get moving, since it's possible the whole thing is going to be over by the end of April (PA, NC, IN) anyway, if not sooner (superdelegate landslide). Even assuming that they're able to get their stuff together in time, a Florida do-over with anything more than a 5-10 delegate net for Hillary is invonceivable.  Which explains why Hillary and her surrogates are pushing to seat the delegates as-is (unnacceptable) or have the party pay for it (also unacceptable).  Problem with what's "acceptable" is that little by little, one can whittle away at that stuff and next thing you know, it's okay -- such as with Chris's position on Florida, above.


[ Parent ]
Michigan Caucus Won't Work (0.00 / 0)
A Michigan caucus won't work because caucuses are undemocratic; to wit, voters standing outside precincts in TX as late as midnight TX time.

My gut is that this argument will be bandied about for so long  that the MI delegation will be seated as-is.


Cancel all caucuses! (0.00 / 0)
If we are going to void caucuses, let's void all undemocratic aspects of the nomination campaign: superdelegates, Florida, the staggered primary calendar, fundraising, the different partisan resigistration guidelines, etc.

Sure it ain't perfectly democratic, but seating an 80-1 Clinton delegation in Michigan is way, way less democratic.  


[ Parent ]
And Take all Delegates awarded to Clinton Pre-Feb 5 (0.00 / 0)
Since they were based on a pledge (read: contract) that was violated (read: breached).  

[ Parent ]
it concerns me (4.00 / 1)
when I see people arguing that Michigan should be seated as it stands.  Since really only banana republics and scary dictatorships would consider an election where only one candidate was on the ballot fair.

I don't see how people used to living in a democracy would ever suggest such a thing.


[ Parent ]
You are kidding, right? (0.00 / 0)
Award 80 delegates to the candidate who broke the pledge?

[ Parent ]
This is not that kind of caucus (0.00 / 0)
A "caucus" means that the party rather than the state pays for it.  The firehouse caucus feels just like a primary and is no more burdensome on voters.

I speak only for myself, not for those voices in the next room that won't leave me alone.

[ Parent ]
From what I understand... (0.00 / 0)
A firehouse caucus is a caucus in name only, and is virtually indistinguishable from a primary to the average voter.  

Further Reading

Dems Paying for Republicans (4.00 / 1)
It was Republicans in Florida, the Governor and Legislature, that created this situation.  Now they want Democrats to fix it.  I would be seriously upset if Democrats had to spend money right before a presidential election to fix a problem solely caused by Republicans.  I don't care if it's $1, $5 million, or $20M.  I agree this needs to be fixed, but I don't think Democrats should have to pay for it.

Saxby Chambliss, worse than disgraceful; he's reprehensible.  

I agree, and it's obvious that (0.00 / 0)
the party has lawyers available to sue the Florida State Legislature for setting the primary date in such a way as to disqualify Democratic delegates.  However, supposing the party wins in court and forces Florida to pay for a re-vote, what does that do to the party's prospects in Florida in the general election?  Nothing good, I suspect.

[ Parent ]
Prediction (0.00 / 0)
Here's my prediction....

Obama will hold onto pledged delegate lead.
Clinton will be on top of the popular vote.
War over whether Super Delegates should go with who wins the popular vote or for who wins the delegates.


FIrehouse (0.00 / 0)
Can anyone explain what a "Firehouse Caucus" means? Do people gather around fireplaces, cook smores, and cast votes? Is it more like a primary or caucus? And has it ever been done before in any election?

I voted in a Michigan firehouse caucus in 1988 (0.00 / 0)
and it felt exactly like a primary.  You show up and you vote.  The hours may have been more limited -- something that can be cured with early voting -- but other than that it felt the same.

I speak only for myself, not for those voices in the next room that won't leave me alone.

[ Parent ]
Firehouse Primaries (0.00 / 0)
Firehouse caucuses or firehouse primaries are used all the time in deciding nominations for local offices. Running them statewide is a little more complicated, but there are plenty of people with experience in running them. (I presume the name comes from "everybody come to the firehouse and vote," but I don't know specifically.)

[ Parent ]
Puerto Rico (0.00 / 0)
I live in PR.  Our primary is June 1.  Not June 7.  Apparently June 7 was a typo that got out in the press because either the DNC or the PR Dems didn't edit correctly.

http://www.elnuevodia.com/XSta...


Florida needs to talk to Oregon (0.00 / 0)
about the inexpensive alternative: holding a mail-in ballot primary.  One additional advantage of this is that it might preclude some of the "culling legitimate voters from the rolls" problem that we've seen there in previous elections.

I don't know how much a mail-in ballot primary would cost, but my guess is: much, much less than one requiring polling stations.  In this instance, it's a good experiment for Florida to run.

I speak only for myself, not for those voices in the next room that won't leave me alone.


it's about fairness, NOT democracy (0.00 / 0)
Chris, I agree with most of this, except:


I think seating Florida's delegation as is (105 Clinton, 67 Obama, 13 Edwards) and holding a new Michigan caucus (with 128 pledged delegates at stake) would be an acceptable compromise (more on my Florida position here). Clinton's advantages from the lack of campaigning in Florida would be cancelled out by Obama's advantage in caucuses.

That is completely ridiculous. This idea of balancing out is completely wrong-headed. From a simple perspective of fairness to the candidates, the Florida result is patently unfair, since neither of the candidates campaigned there. A theoretical caucus in Michigan would be fair. Some people might not call it 100% democratic, but the important thing is that it treats the candidates equally. The fact that Obama has beaten Clinton in most of the caucuses is testament to his success among activists, and he has earned that success. To now use that as some kind of a bargaining tool, to say that it balances out Clinton's unearned advantage in Florida is simply bullshit. Clinton's advantage in Florida was unearned because it was based in large part on Clinton's superior name ID on January 29.

Obama's earned advantage in caucuses versus Clinton's unearned advantage due to name ID. Fair versus unfair. You can't compromise between fair and unfair. That's like saying, "We'll accept this incorrect vote tally that gives Bush the advantage in Dade if you'll accept this correct vote tally that gives Kerry the advantage in Broward." That's simply unacceptable. Either Florida has a redo (primary or caucus, I don't care), or they don't get seated.

The truth about Saxby Chambliss


But Clinton did campaign in FL, (0.00 / 0)
albeit briefly, IIRC.

[ Parent ]
But Obama didn't. (0.00 / 0)
The fact that Clinton campaigned makes it even less fair.

Both candidates have to campaign to make it fair.

The truth about Saxby Chambliss


[ Parent ]
A Penalty Is Still Necessary (0.00 / 0)
I think seating Florida's delegation as is (105 Clinton, 67 Obama, 13 Edwards) and holding a new Michigan caucus (with 128 pledged delegates at stake) would be an acceptable compromise ...
Agreed. But I believe a penalty is still necessary to discourage bad behavior. We want the rank and file Democrats to be heard. The DNC could strip the SD's from both states because it is the state party leadership that was responsible for this mess. Then we have the appropriate folks paying a penalty.  

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