Bush Light: Obama Wades Into Progressive Dog-Whistle Politics

by: Chris Bowers

Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 13:00


Two days ago, Obama said the following (emphasis mine):

"Look, one thing I'm very confident about is my judgment in foreign policy is, I believe, better than anyone else in this race, Republican or Democrat.

"And I don't base that simply on the fact that I was right on the war in Iraq. But if you look at how I approached the problem. What I was drawing on was a set of experiences that come from a life of living overseas, having family overseas, being able to see the world through the eyes of people outside our borders.

"The notion that somehow from Washington you get this vast foreign policy experience is illusory."

This passage form Obama is worth revisiting given the campaign events of the past day. Not only is Clinton attacking Obama for stating that he would meet with certain national leaders, but oddly enough Romney and McCain have both actually jumped to Clinton's defense, and attacked Obama for this, too. When have Republicans ever defended Clinton?  Romney's response is worth noting in particular, as he has remarkably has managed to squeeze the Nazis and Communism into major public references to Democrats in one week.

"It's absolutely extraordinary that someone could be so out of touch with the nature of our world," Romney said of Obama. Romney scathingly added that Obama's philosophy mirrors that of Neville Chamberlain, the British Prime Minister who promoted a policy of "appeasement" towards Nazi Germany in the years before World War II.

Now, my friend Peter Daou at the Clinton campaign understands the impact of both Democrats and Republicans attacking Obama for his position on meetings with foreign leaders as well as anyone in the country. As Daou noted in his seminal essay, The Triangle, this will cause conventional wisdom to close against Obama in the national media, pretty much no matter what we say online. And so it has! Check out this rather straightforward comment on the matter from the Washington Post:

Chris Bowers :: Bush Light: Obama Wades Into Progressive Dog-Whistle Politics
The tussle could be a turning point in the Democratic race, which has seen little direct engagement between the top two candidates until now, and highlights how the competition between them has been framed: Clinton's experience vs. Obama's freshness.

For Obama, it also marked a plunge into charge-countercharge politics after a promise to run "a different kind of campaign."

Wow-it is very hard to imagine how a report on this incident could be written more to the liking of the Clinton campaign.  First, with only slightly different wording, the Clinton campaign's general frame on the campaign--experience vs. not--is used as the baseline, "objective" description of the campaign itself, and then this latest "Fight!" is used as an example to reinforce that narrative. Some may argue that the first sentence comes equally close to Obama's framing of the campaign--same old vs. new voice--but I think the next sentence, which states that Obama is not "fresh" after all, makes such a reading difficult, at best. The story is clearly siding with the Clinton campaign's framing.

Now, I agree with Obama on meeting with foreign leaders as a means of trying to reduce tensions.  I also have no doubt that Obama's views on meeting with foreign leaders who have, to put it one way, a "hostile" relationship with the United States, are derived from his formative experiences of living overseas. Obama might understand, better than most, that the, um, "unproductive" United States policy under Bush of not talking to leaders we don't like can easily be viewed around the world as a continuation of not working with pretty much any other nations at all on issues of major international importance at all. It is not difficult to see how this would cause us to appear aloof and exceptionalist in the eyes of many people around the world, and not just those who live under dictatorships. This does indeed strike me as an example of Obama's different perspective, and his framing on experience.

However, at the same time, I also think that this incident will almost certainly damage Obama, simply because he ran up against conservative conventional wisdom on an issue where progressives have made little headway in the national discourse. DLC-nexus conventional wisdom on meeting with certain foreign leaders is, in fact, identical to that of most Republicans and the Bush administration: don't meet with them as some strange form of "punishment." This will be a resource the Clinton campaign can draw upon, if it so chooses, virtually anytime she is attacked from the left, especially by Obama: Republican and Democratic surrogates closing the triangle against the progressive position. I think it also makes Obama's reaction more understandable, if still a little surprising. When the national political discourse has closed the triangle of conventional wisdom against progressives, virtually the only remaining option in a campaign is to make a direct appeal to progressives in their own language. And thus, Obama uses language we denizens of the progressive blogosphere have read repeatedly for over half a decade (emphasis mine):

"I'm not going to hide behind a bunch of rhetoric. I don't want a continuation with Bush-Cheney. I don't want Bush-Cheney light. I want a fundamental change."

It isn't exactly a state secret that describing centrist, DLC-nexus, or Clintonesque Democrats candidates as "Bush-Cheney light," or some variation thereof, is a longstanding practice in many progressive activist circles. If I had a dollar for every time I saw some variation on this line written in the blogosphere, I would  have at least $18,300. I'm sure Obama has seen it written or heard it spoken many times, as well. Given this, just like Bush's odd comment about the Dred Scott case in the final debate with Kerry that actually meant he would only appoint anti-choice judges, I think the best way to read his comments are as a direct appeal to those progressives in their own language: aka, progressive dog whistle politics. Any commentary on whether or not it was a good move for Obama to say what he did should probably take that appeal into account. If he ends up receiving more of a boost from progressives on this than he was hurt among other voters, it will end up being a net gain for him. It will also be interesting to see if this is a use of language he will continue in the future.

Now, I don't think either of those last two scenarios are particularly likely to happen, especially the first one,  but it will be worth watching.


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Isn't it really about Iraq? (0.00 / 0)
I don't know why more hasn't been written about this in regards to Iraq.  What I heard was an admission by Clinton that she wouldn't get out of Iraq in her first year.  Does anyone believe the way out of Iraq in any lasting way does not involve direct conversations with Iran and Syria among others in the Middle East?

talks w/Iran and Syria (0.00 / 0)
As she said in the debate, and has consistently maintained for years: "I will promise a very vigorous diplomatic effort." She would immediately start talks with Iran, Syria and the rest of the bordering powers.

From her speech in Iowa on Iraq:


So in my first days in office, I'll begin work to convene a regional stabilization group composed of key allies, other global powers, and all of the states bordering Iraq.


[ Parent ]
Is this a contradiction on HRC's behalf? (0.00 / 0)
I'm not sure.

I guess I read this as she will 'begin work' on working with those in question, but does not promise to meet with them. I think HRC must lay out her preconditions to really get a sense of where she stands. I don't see Kim or Assad or Iran's President as super willing to meet U.S. demands, so if her preconditions are not met, where does that get us?


[ Parent ]
Will Clinton get us out of Iraq? (0.00 / 0)
Or will Clinton turn into the LBJ of Iraq? Has she already made her mind up to stay and just won't tell us?

Need to know (0.00 / 0)
I have the same concern. Based on her advisers, I can't imagine them telling her that withdrawing from Iraq is a good first move for the first female president. So then we relabel combat troops "trainers" who are on a humanitarian mission. Yet when the "trainers" start dying, do we pull back completely, or reengage? I think this takes us back to residual forces and guarding the embassies, and illustrates why we need concrete answers now.

[ Parent ]
whether or not (0.00 / 0)
The campaign is about Iraq, this post is more focused on Obama's use of dog whistle politics.

[ Parent ]
Obama is (0.00 / 0)
doing more than appealing to the more progressive elements of the electorate using coded messages. He is taking a stand. The coded message from Clinton regarding war policy is a message of omission, of "don't ask, don't tell" policy politics, of business as usual. The coded message from Obama is overt, not business as usual. The result is a classic insider versus outsider face-off. With these tactics, Obama is successfully framing Clinton as the insider. And America is furious with insider Washington, Democrats and Republicans.

I don't hear a dog-whistle at all. I hear a bullhorn.


[ Parent ]
the comment strengthened (4.00 / 2)
my support for Obama, though I've generally been pro-Obama for a while now, with Edwards as my second choice.

It was clear to me, at least, that Obama was pledging to dump neo-con foreign policy, and that is of prime importance to me.  It would be bold, and perhaps even productive, if Obama met with Ahmedinejad or Kim or someone in his first year of office to hash out differences.  Why are so many so-called experts and Washington insiders diametrically opposed to trying something new in regards to foreign policy?

We need a drastic change in our approach to foreign policy.  Too much of the world sees us as arrogant and full of hubris.  We need to show a little humility.  Who wants to be told what to do by the big guy at the end of the block? 


so-called experts .. (0.00 / 0)
Who are the so-called experts?  All those neocons?  HoJo?  Most of them want more war.

[ Parent ]
Not going to hurt Obama (4.00 / 2)
Clinton's camp are professionals when it comes to getting the media to buy into her framing. This whole conflict has been manufactured by the Clinton camp, yet does little to sway Obama supporters and does more to cast Clinton as a cynical politician.

Obama gave a straightforward answer, and Clinton found a way to parse it so she could then call Obama naive. Then when they hit back she called it silly and stated it contradicted his policy of hope. Great political move on its face, but it is strange for a front runner to attack someone beneath them in the polls, and I believe shows just how worried the Clinton camp is about Obama.

I believe your post is right on, but I do think Obama, having stalled in the polls, knows he has to go all in, and is doing so. Since Romney and McCain have supported Hillary, he can call this diplomatic strategy Bush Lite, if not the Hillary McRomney position of diplomacy. Obama can then reinforce, hone, and specify his message of change, which he desperately needs to do since Edwards is making his message about change as well (and doing very well at it)

And I agree with DD2, judging by her comments, I do not believe that HRC will get us out of Iraq in her first year, if her first term.


Latest Rasmussen poll on this matter (4.00 / 2)
Forty-two percent (42%) of Americans say that the next President should meet with the heads of nations such as Iran, Syria, and North Korea without setting any preconditions. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 34% disagree while 24% are not sure.

That question came up during last Mondayâ??s Presidential Debate with Illinois Senator Barack Obama saying he would commit to such meetings and New York Senator Hillary Clinton offering a more cautious response. Democrats, by a 55% to 22% margin, agree with Obama. Clinton and Obama continue to dominate the race for the Democratic Presidential nomination.

I think this helps Obama with the rank and file democrats.


[ Parent ]
I agree (0.00 / 0)
A question for the thread - Did anyone disapprove of Obama's answer when they first heard it?

I thought it was a great response,  but Clinton found a way to parse it to make it seem that Obama implied something he didn't mean (willing to be used for propaganda purposes). And while the media pundits thought this was so serious, was it?  Couldn't Clinton have said, "no I won't meet with these leaders until I get dressed. You don't want these dictators using this as an opportunity to take pictures of you nude and embarrassing you!" and thus Obama is naive for not getting dressed for these important meetings.

Clinton showed she is "politics as usual". Obama showed how he is the agent of change and will stand against the status quo, even if that means squaring off with Sen. Clinton. Obama must push this, this is not a fight Clinton wants, knowing that Edwards and Richardson, 2 strong candidates, are waiting in the wings and should battling Obama drain her of energy and resources, either of the 2 could come in at the 12th round fresh and knock her out.


[ Parent ]
It May Help Obama With Rank And File Dems (0.00 / 0)
But he has to do more.  He has to use this opportunity to decisively break with the DC establishment, and define the battle as more of Bush vs. not just him, but an embrace of America's foreign policy at its most confident:

"We should never negotiate from fear, but we should never fear to negotiate"-- John F. Kennedy

See my comment below for how I think he should do it.  But my point here is that this is the ideal moment for him to break out of the Democratic Primary frame and into the General Election frame.  He doesn't have to say a damn thing about Clinton.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Right on (4.00 / 2)
I have told many that they were being impatient when they have previously said Obama needs to do something drastic. But now is the time. The gloves are off, and the battleground is foreign policy (especially Conventional Wisdom Foreign Policy) where Obama has an opening. And, fairly or not, Clinton has found herself in line with McCain and Romney, Obama should exploit that.

[ Parent ]
"The Hillary McRomney position of diplomacy" (0.00 / 0)
That would certainly be wading even deeper into dog whistle politics if he used that term. I wonder if he will pull out the bush-Cheney Lite line again on any other issues.

[ Parent ]
I Think It's Much More Effective To Show Than Tell (4.00 / 2)
At this point, I think Obama's got an excellent opening to turn his fire on McCain and Romney, tying both of them to Bush.  This is precisely what he would want to do in the general election, and by doing it now--and ignoring Clinton--he defines the debate precisely the way he would most want to do it.

By ignoring Clinton, he sends a much more powerful message than be attacking her.  This is the strongest possible way to make his point that she is just Bush lite.  Just take her position for granted as irrelevant for the choice America has to make.  The longer he ignores her, the more her attacks on him register as supporting Romney and McCain.

Obama has a golden opportunity to define himself directly vs. Romney and McCain while they tie themselves to Bush's failed policies.  If he just sticks with his guns--and quotes JFK as I suggest elesewhere--Romney, McCain and Clinton will all do most of the work for him, identifying themselves more and more strongly to Bush's failed pig-headed approach to policy.

This could be the turning point his campaign has been waiting for.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Obama has a huge megaphone; he can win this battle (4.00 / 3)
I think that Obama can win this battle, if only because he has a big enough megaphone to get his message across despite the media's opposition to his position. If he starts pointing out how not talking to Kim Jung Il gave North Korea the bomb; how not talking to Saddam led to the conclusion that he had WMD; how not talking enough with Abbas made him weak in Gaza; if Obama makes these cases out in public and argues for a more engaged foreign policy, I think he can win over Democratic primary voters. Remember, he doesn't need to win over independents or Republicans yet.

(Also, of course, Obama should say that we don't need a Guiliani-Romney-Clinton foreign policy. We need a new foreign policy. The fact that those guys (and David Brooks, the Weekly Standard, and all the rest of the blow-hards) are supporting Clinton's position points out exactly how wrong-headed it is.


This is exactly the type of discourse that needs to be stated... (0.00 / 0)
Obama is losing the primary battle so who cares  if he would beat the republicans in a face off. He needs to win the primary. This was a perfect move politically and made Clinton seem pompous and arrogant. I am a Richardson guy but this has brought Obama ahead of Clinton and John Edwards to a strong second place in my mind. And if I were Obama I would make the Bush comparison stick by using a bush tactic "rinse and repeat." 

Dare to ask THE QUESTION!

[ Parent ]
Obama looks Inexperienced (4.00 / 1)
Obama has lost this battle already and has given the repugs enough ammunition to use against him in the GE.  I don't think Obama can now win a GE with this stance.  It might work with some democrats, but you have to beleve that meeting with dicatators without pre-conditions is a disaster waiting to happen.  Even Richardson did not just go over to North Korea without setting the stage and he also had pre-conditions before sitting at the table.  If he says he did not he is fooling himself and the rest of the country.

Obama Should Quote JFK, And Come Back Strong--At The Republicans (4.00 / 3)
I think Obama is 100 precent right, and Clinton is dead wrong.  And while I agree with this Chris's basic assessment here:

However, a the same time, I also now that this incident will almost certainly damage Obama, simply because he ran up against conservative conventional wisdom on an issue where progressives have made little headway in the national discourse.

I don't think it has to be that way.

In fact, Obama could really turn this around by going on the offensive--and not against, but against the Republicans defending her (thus putting it back in the frame he wants for the general election.)

How does he do this?  Simple.  He quotes JFK:

"We should never negotiate from fear, but we should never fear to negotiate."

Then he says:

If I'm going to chose Presidents who inspire me, Presidents to model myself on,  I an proudly and surely going to choose President John F. Kennedy, just as surely as Mitt Romney and John McCain are going to choose Goerge W. Bush.  And that's a choice of direction for our nation I am proud to present to the American people.

What's more, he doesn't just do this once in a speech somewhere.  He's got a ton of money he's sitting on.  He ought to spend a chunk of it to get this message out there far and wide--and to shove it down the DC establishment's throat.

If Obama does this--responding to the Republicans, rather than Clinton--he doesn't just say that she is GOP-lite.  He shows that she is.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


National support (0.00 / 0)
Seems to be with him, but only a plurality. Still, you might be right. If his position is the more popular one, especially among Dems, continuing to attack on this front could pay dividends, even with conventional wisdom against him.

[ Parent ]
It's Only A Plurality--But No Leader Has Pushed It (0.00 / 0)
What this reminds me of was the Gallup International poll just after 9/11.  Of 35 countries around the world, only 3 had majorities who favored a military, rather than a criminal justice response.  India and Israel--which have enjoyed such wonderful success with military responses--favored a military response by overwhelming majorities.  Everyone else in the world opposed a military response by overwhelming majorities...except for the US, when a bare majority of 54 percent favored a military response, while 30 percent favored a criminal justice response, and 16 percent were undecided.

But the thing is, virtually no public figures at all had expressed a clear alternative to a military response.  This was an amazingly large percentage of Americans who were not sold on a military response without any significant public articulartion of another point of view.

Right now, I see this situation as much the same.  Except for two things:  (1) Obama has the spotlight on him, and won't have any trouble getting heard.  (He'll get slimed and distorted, but he will get heard.) (2) If he leads by quoting Kennedy, he instantly turns the tables on the establishment.  Both Kennedy's words themselves and his symbolic stature provide a direct connection between Obama's position and that which is latent in most Americans--not just the plurality who were uncovered by the initial polling, without any priming from the political discourse.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Clinton already used the JFK quote (0.00 / 0)
Obama should use it, but Clinton already did when explaining her foreign policy approach in a speech to the Council on Foreign Relations. lovingj included the quote in her inadvertently pro-Clinton video at MyDD, about halfway through.

[ Parent ]
Well It's One Thing To USE The Quote (0.00 / 0)
It's quite another to actually believe it.

That fact that Clinton has used it recently herself is going to make it even harder for her, if Obama goes on the offensive the way I have suggested.  This is yet another benefit of him focusing his attack on McCain and Romney.  It puts her in an even more compromised position while Obama is drawing clear bright lines between himself and them.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
JFK (0.00 / 0)
I'm not sure if it was Axelrod or Matthews making the JFK comparisons but that  JFK quote was being attached to Obama last night on Hardball.  I'm pretty sure it was Matthews who was making the connection which is even more interesting because it means the media already is getting hold of it, and especially since once Matthews gets hold of something he doesn't let go.  He seems to be leaning more to Obama these days, perhaps his kids are finally getting through to him.

[ Parent ]
Everyone In DC Knows The Quote--That's The Beauty Part (0.00 / 0)
The neocons represent a radical break with everything that went before them (yes, despite the fact that we've been invading and overthrowing other regimes since the shores of Tripoli), but Versailles clings desperately to the myth that there's nothing really new here, it's all part of a coherent historical narrative.

The Kennedy quote is like a magical phrase that can break the spell, because its such a central part of the American foreign policy narrative, and it is so blatantly at odds with everything Versailles has come to embrace under Bush.

Obama better move quickly, IMHO.  If he doesn't jump on the quote quickly and strenghen his identification with it--and Kennedy--he will miss a tremendous opportunity.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Obama as Eisenhower (4.00 / 1)
Eisenhower Doctrine, 1957: "There is no nation, great or small, with which we would refuse to negotiate, in mutual good faith, with patience and in the determination to secure a better understanding between us. Out of such understandings must, and eventually will, grow confidence and trust, indispensable ingredients to a program of peace and to plans for lifting from us all the burdens of expensive armaments. To promote these objectives, our government works tirelessly, day by day, month by month, year by year. But until a degree of success crowns our efforts that will assure to all nations peaceful existence, we must, in the interests of peace itself, remain vigilant, alert and strong."

You can't meet in "mutual good faith" if the meeting has preconditions. You meet and if the other side are a bunch of manipulating liars then you agree that the ice tea served with lunch was delicious and nothing else, then schedule another meeting. Repeat as necessary. As Churchill said it's better to jaw-jaw then war-war.

John McCain


Excellent Point (4.00 / 1)
I still think that Obama has to lead with quoting Kennedy.  It's much sharper, and Kennedy's image is one that Obama wants to invoke for its freshness, yet maturity.  Not to mention the fact that Kennedy was a Democrat.  He wants all those lines drawn sharp and clear as day.

But the Eisenhower quote is just perfect for phase two, not just to reinforce the message, and add Eisenhower's gravitas, but also to demonstrate Obama's bipartisan side, and to stress that the sharp difference with today's GOP leadership does not equate to a wholesale rejection of the Republican roots that many Republicans still cling to, even though their party is nothing like that anymore.

Having a one-two presidential precendent punch like this is a tremendous advantage for Obama.  Let's hope he realizes what he's got.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
All the Presidents (0.00 / 0)
He can grab JFK for the Primary, Eisenhower and the best of Reagan for the Primary.  But I thought it very funny that Daschle last night on Ed Schultz was bringing up Nixon opening relations with China - which by implication makes Clinton worse than Nixon in foreign affairs.

[ Parent ]
I HATE The Whole Nixon-China Thing (0.00 / 0)
The reason only Nixon could go to China was that Nixon would have personally assasinated anyone else if they had gone to China.

This is fundamentally different from the meaning that is usually given--the one Nixon himself wanted--that it was a great and defining act of statesmanship.

No statesmanship whatever was required.  All he had to do was refrain from attacking himself in public.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Living overseas (0.00 / 0)
As an American who has spent five years abroad, I very much appreciate that it gives you a perspective that a century in Washington D.C. cannot match.  Personally, I would very much prefer a president who has heard with his own ears how foreign nationals see America.

Obama is right on this issue and needs to make that argument to the American people.

My job is not to represent Washington to you, but to represent you to Washington- Obama
Philly for Obama


dog whistle, but not for progressives (0.00 / 0)
Obama is whistling for an audience, but it is not progressives. It is his standard pox-on-both houses call applied to foreign policy, it is designed to appeal to independents. Like Ross Perot's change the system, sit down with them, talk it out and fix it approach.

Obama rejects the progressive approach, embodied in the UN and professional diplomacy through international institutions, as "Bush-Cheney lite".


If That's True, Then He Goes Down In Flames (4.00 / 2)
Obama rejects the progressive approach, embodied in the UN and professional diplomacy through international institutions, as "Bush-Cheney lite".

Fortunately, I think you're crazy.  But Obama certianly has been vague and careless enough to invite such a misguided interpretation.  It's time for him to put all that behind him, and make it clear what he is for.

A large part of why negotiation works is precisely because there is such a strong international consensus behind it.  The UN is a huge part of that.  And the American people--not just progressives--have longstanding supermajority support for working through the UN.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Since when has the U.N. been the progressive stance? (0.00 / 0)
Think for a second what under Bill's reign the U.N. gave us? Somalia? Rwanda? Or how about Prince George? Oil for food and no action in Dar fur? I don't think the U.N. is a progressive stance at all! The U.N. teaches us that we must listen to view points that differ from our own. That is it... And as such it is good... But don't fool yourself into believing that the U.N. is a perfect progressive embodiment of good will towards all nations. Because it's not...

Dare to ask THE QUESTION!

[ Parent ]
When Did I Ever Say That??? (0.00 / 0)
But don't fool yourself into believing that the U.N. is a perfect progressive embodiment of good will towards all nations. Because it's not...

Seriously?  (In a Grey's Anatomy, not a Joe Klein way.)

Conservatives hate the UN.  And Clinton was notoriously bad at standing up to conservative pressure, except when it came to his zipper.  So Clinton (a) went along with a lot of UN-sabotaging and (b) often tried to use the UN in quite narrow ways.  He was nowhere near as bad as Bush, of course.  But he helped to siginificantly undermine the UN's progressive potential. 

Nonetheless, that potential is huge.  And it is clearly reflected in the fact of how intensely the Bushies hate it.

They actually thought they were going to bully the Security Council into giving them the OK to invade Iraq, which would have made it legal under International Law.  But the Security Council was going to say, "No!" so Bush just dropped it, and invaded on his own.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It actually was in response to the comment just above yours... (0.00 / 0)
Apologies for the confusion... However I put it onto yours because you in your post seemed to ignore the assertion that the UN is a progressive institution, and rather premised your argument as if that assertion was a legitimate claim. I take issue with the concept that any institution that brings together both conservative, moderate, and progressive voices together will truly be progressive. Now that's not to say that it isn't necessary because it is as I described in the afore mentioned post.

The U.N. teaches us that we must listen to view points that differ from our own. That is it... And as such it is good...

I however, did give you a four on your post if for no other reason than your opening line... I did have other reasons like the fact that you are right even while utilizing souvarine's flawed political model. Make better sense now? 

Dare to ask THE QUESTION!

[ Parent ]
It Makes Better Sense, But... (0.00 / 0)
One of the enduring differences between conservatives and progressives is that progressives have generally recognized the importance of creating non-exclusive institutions.

Thus, the progressive answer to monarchy was not--for most--the dictatorship of the proletariat (and even Marx intended that term more in the sense of agenda-defining than authoritarian rule). Rather, it was liberal democracy, in which certain liberal values were constitutionally protected, but a vast range of political policy was left open for political struggle, in which conservatives could participate as fully as anyone else.

The UN is a progressive institution in the same inherently imperfect sense as liberal democracy is.  It's important--vitally so--for progressives to also build institutions of their own that are more selective.  But progressives will always support governance structures that allow for views deeply at odds with progressive values, simply because inclusiveness is such a fundamental progressive value.

It's a contradiction, all right.  No doubt about it.  But it's the ability to live with contradiction, rather than living in denial, that is one of things that distinguishes progressives from conservatives.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
re: If That's True, Then He Goes Down In Flames (0.00 / 0)
He has been less vague than I thought. I had the impression that Obama had a fairly standard Democratic take on the role of international institutions and negotiation. But in light of his responses to the summit issue I went back and took a closer look at his foreign policy speech The American Moment. I was always uncomfortable with his emphasis on American exceptionalism and the use military force in that speech, but on re-reading it I realized that he only mentions the UN in the context of reforming the institution. On almost every issue he stresses using American power to directly address global problems, never through the framework of international institutions.

I think Obama is closer to Sean Gallegos's position, and that he does not see the UN as an essential player in his foreign policy. As you note international institutions and the UN are the cornerstone of the progressive foreign policy FDR laid down in the '40s, so I think I can make a case that Obama is not advocating for the progressive position on foreign policy. Obama is not hostile to the UN, he is no Republican, but as he says: "I still believe that America is the last, best hope of Earth. We just have to show the world why this is so."


[ Parent ]
Defining Moment (4.00 / 1)
E.J. Dionne Jr. agrees:

The most intriguing aspect of this controversy is that both campaigns were operating from their respective positions of strength. Clinton has successfully cast herself as the toughest candidate of the Democratic bunch and has Washington experience that Obama can't match. Obama, precisely because he exudes newness in so many ways, promises the most obvious break with the past.

If Obama wins the nomination, Republicans will try to make him pay a price for his negotiation-friendly attitude. But this week, at least, Clinton started a battle about experience and Obama turned it into a debate about change.

This dynamic, over a stray comment in a single debate, could be remembered as the moment that defined the Democratic presidential contest. Clinton faces trouble if she allows Obama a monopoly on the future.



Politics is a strong and slow boring of hard boards.

I Think The Openning Is Definitely There (0.00 / 0)
But I don't know how well Obama will sieze it.  It's not just about skill in defining the narrative.  It really is about how deep and genuine Obama's vision is, plus how well it is integrated into how he conducts his campaign.

This really is a test of leadership.  It's not a dress rehearsal.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
How deep? Deep. (0.00 / 0)
The politics of engagement and clearly articulating what we stand for as a people is a core ingredient of Obama's grand narrative - we've been talking about this for a few days now.  And I think this debate which has suddenly emerged around direct talks with other countries highlights the symbolic difference between the two candidates.  Purely in terms of symbols, we as a people say something to the world if we elect Obama President.  We say whatever you may think of America,  we take to heart, more seriously perhaps than what our former leaders have led you to believe, the foundations of freedom and equality on which this country was formed.  It is a rare opportunity to speak to the world, and sending that message out there without preconditions is a more powerful tool than any propaganda framing a dictator might try. 

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Walking The Walk (0.00 / 0)
The politics of engagement and clearly articulating what we stand for as a people is a core ingredient of Obama's grand narrative

So Obama says.  The problem for many of us who remain unconvinced is the question of whether he can not just talk the talk, but also walk the walk.  And that's what this is all about.

In short: Don't tell me, show me.

In the primaries, we're all from Missouri.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
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