Many Caucuses Not Over Yet

by: Chris Bowers

Tue Mar 11, 2008 at 10:20


Josh Marshall points us to this interesting tidbit about caucuses from 1984:

In Nevada, Obama won 13 delegates and Clinton won 12.

But if one side is unable to rally its supporters at any step along the way, it risks losing national delegates, much like Gary Hart did in 1984.

Hart fared well in initial party caucuses when he ran for the Democratic nomination in 1984, only to see some of those delegates go to Walter Mondale at the state conventions, said Tad Devine, a Democratic strategist who counted delegates for Mondale.

This passage is relevant to the current campaign for three reasons, as I explain in the extended entry.

Chris Bowers :: Many Caucuses Not Over Yet
First, the Clinton campaign is publicly making a distinction between caucus delegates and other types of delegates:

Well, that was the pre-March 4 Clinton spin. The new Clinton spin? Create THREE categories of delegates: pledged, caucus and supers. Here's Hillary Clinton in an interview with Newsweek.

Asked how she can win the nomination despite the math, Clinton: "It doesn't look bleak at all. I have a very close race with Senator Obama. There are elected delegates, caucus delegates and superdelegates, all for different reasons, and they're all equal in their ability to cast their vote for whomever they choose.

Some Obama supporters have taken this statement as an indication that the Clinton campaign was going after pledged Obama delegates, rather than simply stating the technical truth that elected delegates are not legally obligated to vote for their candidate at the convention. I think, rather, that Senator Clinton was simply revealing too much about her campaign strategy. Many caucus states, including the delegate-rich contests of Colorado (55), Iowa (45) and Washington (78), have not yet allocated all, or in some cases any, of their pledged delegates. Rather, these are "multi-tiered" contests where the caucuses continues to a second and sometimes third level before the delegates are determined. Three weeks ago, the Clinton campaign confirmed to me that they are still organizing in multi-tiered states:

Because of this, I put a question into both the Obama and Clinton campaigns to see if they had organizers still working on the process in states with multi-tiered delegate process. The Clinton campaign confirmed to me that yes, they do in fact still have organizers in states with multi-tiered delegate selection processes, even if those states have already held primaries or caucuses. The Obama campaign declined to comment, but indicated that information on the subject would be available to the public later this week.

Now, some Obama supporters are screaming bloody murder about this, as the comments to this well-recommended diary at Daily Kos shows. However, why would any well-organized campaign stop organizing in a caucus state if the caucus itself is not over? Strikes me as a really bad idea to declare yourself the winner at halftime and then head home, especially while the other side is still playing:

I was at my Adams County assembly last weekend. Obama won the county on caucus night 55-45, but at the assembly Clinton tied him. The same, I hear, is happening in other counties. Clinton actually still has a paid operation here working these county assemblies. At these county assemblies, delegates are chosen for the state convention, where, finally, the delegation to the national convention is chosen. So Adams county will be sending the same number of votes for Clinton as for Obama to the state convention. If, as anecdotally appears to be the case, Clinton does five points better at county than on caucus night, you could see her gaining several delegates that are currently being given to Obama. Potentially as many as 5-6. Most caucus states have similar systems, btw.

Now, the above diary is wrong on the facts, since Obama only actually won the county 51-46 on Super Tuesday, making a draw from the Clinton campaign on the second round not impossible at all if some Obama supporters didn't show up (or if the 3% of uncommitted delegates switched to a candidate). This is, after all, a caucus, and caucusing continues until the delegates are selected. And no, this is not thwarting the will of the popular caucus electorate, or at least not thwarting it any more than a caucus already thwarts the popular will. There is no will of the electorate in many caucus states--aka, there is no popular vote--only delegates to the next level of the caucus.

Now, I don't think that Obama supporters have too much to worry about here, unless they themselves are caucus delegates who didn't bother to show up to the next level of the caucus. So far, the Clinton campaign has not done a very good job of organizing in caucuses, since by my count Obama leads in projected caucus delegates 326-190. Also, caucus delegates tend to be dedicated activists for one candidate or another, and the Clinton campaign has probably hurt its own chances to win more delegates from these states by openly dissing red-state caucus delegates in the past. So, it seems unlikely that Clinton can improve upon the pledged delegate projection I listed above. However, they are at least giving it a shot, breaking absolutely zero rules and thwarting no popular will along the way.

Among the many different locations that the Clinton campaign can look for pledged delegates right now, second or third level caucus states is one of the most above board, transparent, and fair. It is certainly better than trying to convince superdelegates to ignore the popular will. It is much, much better than trying to seat the abomination that is the current Michigan delegation. Caucuses in some states are simply not over yet, and the Clinton campaign is playing straight through to the end of the game. That is smart, because as the 1984 campaign taught us about caucuses, don't declare yourself the winner at halftime and then go home. Some delegates in caucus states might change hands between now and June.  


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I have to imagine that since Obama'c camp clearly (0.00 / 0)
planned this campaign out to the end they were aware of all of the rules and are prepared for this sort of thing.  

Apparently (4.00 / 1)
Clinton has planned this out to the end also.

The question I would have is if new caucuses - meaning those who did not participate in the original caucuses can participate in the 2nd and third tier caucuses? If so then Clinton could peel off some delegates with a push to have some of her supporters show up while Obama people don't.

As an aside the diary made this statement:

"It is certainly better than trying to convince superdelegates to ignore the popular will."

I disagree with the spirit of that statement in that it appears to be a purely politically motivated view of the role of the supers. Their role was never intended to prop up the popular vote or the delegate vote or anyone else's vote. They are an independent vote by design and any attempt to say other wise is not keeping with the spirit of the rules of the supers.

If we accept the tiered rules of the caucuses then we must accept the rules of the supers. To try to pressure them into holding up a popular vote as if it is how things should be done when that is not part of the rules of their vote is badgering them and misdirecting them at best. We don't get to pick and chose which rules are valid and which are not.


[ Parent ]
Nothing from her campaign (0.00 / 0)
shows me that she has planned beyond Super Tuesday. As far as the Supers go. They're not idiots. The elected ones know that their constituents will be aware of how they voted. The unelected, and therefore unaccountable ones (should be removed from the system in the future), will go with whoever will butter their bread the most.  

[ Parent ]
Honestly (0.00 / 0)
a lot of constituents will not know how their reps votes just like they don't know all votes their reps make now.

And if the reps vote differently it is only because they are following the rules of being able to do so. If a constituent held it against a rep for following the rules of the game then it would only be a vindictive act on their part which would show disregard for the rules and total self-centered regard for their political desires. That is not the way it is set up to be and to try to say it it is, is not being willing to follow the rules. And if you are not willing to follow the rules then your voice should not be heard.


[ Parent ]
Not constituents... (0.00 / 0)
They know they nuke their chances of winning the White House back if they ignore the voters... it's really as simple as that.

[ Parent ]
Why? (4.00 / 1)
I don't really get that. A caucus is the craziest stupidest thing I ever heard of...one word that does not come to my mind is democratic. Yet, somehow, a superdelegate voting for who they want is the most horrible thing on earth! LOL.

My my, someone wants the cake and to eat it too.

Rules, its all about the rules. LOL.


[ Parent ]
I just knew (0.00 / 0)
that one of the vindictive ones I mentioned in my post would reply.

And you even take it a nuke step further in saying that if the supers vote independently as they are supposed to do then we will not win the WH. What is up with that? Obviously it is a not to veiled threat of not voting at all if you don't get your way. Well we are a democracy and you can choose not to vote if you don't want to. Instead you can help put McCain in the WH by staying home if it comes to that.


[ Parent ]
My, my... put words in my mouth will you... (0.00 / 0)
I'll be angry, but I'll be voting for the Democratic nominee (not that my vote will matter much anyway since I'm in IL). I can't speak for all of the young/new voters, or African Americans that may feel like their candidate had the election stolen from them.  It's a dangerous game they're playing if the Super Delegates decide to do that, and yes, I think it looks far worse than caucus results.  At least caucuses use actual voters... no one really complained about them like this until Clinton started losing them.

But I will say that, yes, both should be gotten rid of.  I'm all for more primaries.


[ Parent ]
Correction (0.00 / 0)
"if new caucuses" = if new caucusers

[ Parent ]
Best presidential campaign ever run (0.00 / 0)
and the fact that he refuses to go nuclear makes it even more impressive.  

you're not giving him enough credit (4.00 / 1)
Looking at it objectively, Obama's campaign has been the single greatest achievement by a human being in the history of mankind.

[ Parent ]
Human History? (4.00 / 1)
You really underestimate Obama, limiting his achievement only to the "history of mankind".  Do you really believe any civilization out there in the universe could have possible achieved more than what Obama has achieved?  Of course not.  Only God Himself might have achieved more and Obama isn't yet president, where he will get a chance to really show his stuff!

[ Parent ]
"Only God himself" (0.00 / 0)
I think you may be making some unfair assumptions about Obama's campaign here. God has been known to take human form before* and I wouldn't want you to lead others into thinking that it is out of the question in this case.

*Source: http://www.devotions.net/bible...

I support John McCain because children are too healthy anyway.


[ Parent ]
God is omnipotent (0.00 / 0)
and Obama is a black man in the USA.

Therefore, Obama's accomplishments are much more significant than God's.  

"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
Texas should be up there with Colorado, Iowa and Washington (0.00 / 0)
Precinct delegates elect state delegates at the County/SD convention, and those delegates elect national delegates at the State convention. Things can change depending on turnout, and have in the past. Organization favors Obama, but the Clinton delegates are more likely to have gone through the process before, based on Clinton's lead among Democrats. My precinct went 2-1 Obama, but Clinton supporters elected three times as many delegates who had been to a convention before. The campaigns need to stay on the field for the second half.

"level of the caucus" (0.00 / 0)
I think I understand what you're saying, but it directly contradicts this comment from a long-time pol in Minnesota, which also has a caucus.

It does not matter how many Clinton and Obama supporters make it to the congressional district and state conventions. The number of Obama and Clinton national delegates has already been determined by the precinct caucus vote. If Obama got two-thirds of the vote in a six-delegate congressional district, he gets four of the six delegates, period.

MN Caucuses

Are there different kinds of caucuses?


Life happens (0.00 / 0)
Sometimes delagates get lost, oversleep, get sick, have to be out of town, etc., and they just don't make it to the second level caucus.  Sometimes they don't want to be there too!

[ Parent ]
Minnesota (4.00 / 2)
Rules vary on a state by state basis. In Minnesota, the pledged delegates were fixed after the first event. So, even though it is a caucus, it is not a multi-tiered state.  

[ Parent ]
Two Way vs. Three Way (0.00 / 0)
There is a lot more potential for political intrigue, deals, etc., in a multi-level caucus system in a three way contest than in a two way choice.  1984 was a three way race.

[ Parent ]
No not true (0.00 / 0)
The problem is, there is a long tradition of counties and other sub-state entities making up their own rules, or refusing to enforce rules. You therefore get situations where alternates are allowed to vote at county assemblies on a first come first served basis (campaigns tell their people to show up as much as 3 hours before the assemblies start, to take advantage of this).  

[ Parent ]
We had close shaving in Wisconsin in 1984 (4.00 / 1)
One of the proudest experiences of my political life was shaving two delegates from Mondale to Hart in Wisconsin in 1984 in the 1st & 2nd Congressional districts.  

Iowa County Conventions This Weekend (0.00 / 0)
So I have the double pleasure of being both an Obama alternate to my county convention, as well as serving on the county credential committee in Iowa.

I can attest that all sides are making pitches. I have received an email from the Iowa Attorney General not only reinforcing me as an Obama delegate, but offering me the opportunity to call Dodd, Edwards, Biden, and Richardson delegates to recruit them to come on over.

I also received a robo call from the Clinton campaign telling me they were counting on my vote and asking me to press 1 if Hillary could count on my vote. This was interesting to me becasue I am clearly labeled as an Obama alternate, but as has been already state any delegate can change their minds. I still thought it odd that Hillary was recruiting me via phone...but alas, whatever it takes.

Our convention should be interesting with a large batch of Obama, smaller Clinton, good sized Edwards, and 4 Richardson delegates.


Seems like we need to stop the madness... (0.00 / 0)
Caucuses are one thing, but why does this process drag out for months?  Can we not just have a vote and be done with it?

I kind of like it. (0.00 / 0)
Granted, I don't have to sit through it myself, but I have to admit I have a soft spot for a process that brings the most committed Democratic activists together again and again in the run-up to the convention.

I certainly prefer it in concept to the Everybody Spend Five Minutes With a Scantron Sheet and Then Go Home and Watch TV version.


[ Parent ]
I am the author of the diary Chris references (0.00 / 0)
Sorry I got the Super Tuesday results wrong (my memory isn't what it used to be). I heard yesterday from several folks that the same thing is happening in other big counties. I don't think, as I originally thought, this will lead to a 5-6 delegate swing, but definitely 2-3 delegates. Repeated in multiple states that could matter.

Michigan delegation (0.00 / 0)
The only "abomination" occurred when Obama took his name off the MI ballot.

Blame Edwards... (0.00 / 0)
Blame Edwards, Biden, Richardson, and the rest of the candidates too for removing thier names with the exception of Sen. Dodd.

[ Parent ]
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