God vs. America

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Mar 16, 2008 at 10:00

Jeremiah Wright is a bad, bad man.  He said mean things about America, how God should punish America.  Nobody says that.

Nobody except Thomas Jefferson, Frederick Douglass, Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, Jr., Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and John Hagee.

Yup, all sorts of people say God should (or already has) punish(ed) America.  The only difference lies in just what they think we've been doing wrong....

[Quotesville on the flip!]

Paul Rosenberg :: God vs. America
Thomas Jefferson, "Notes On The State of Virginia.":

With the morals of the people, their industry also is destroyed. For in a warm climate, no man will labour for himself who can make another labour for him. This is so true, that of the proprietors of slaves a very small proportion indeed are ever seen to labour. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever: that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation, is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in such a contest.

Frederick Douglass, "The Meaning of July Fourth for the Negro," 1852

This Fourth July is yours, not mine. You may rejoice, I must mourn. To drag a man in fetters into the grand illuminated temple of liberty, and call upon him to join you in joyous anthems, were inhuman mockery and sacrilegious irony. Do you mean, citizens, to mock me, by asking me to speak to-day?


At a time like this, scorching irony, not convincing argument, is needed. O! had I the ability, and could reach the nation's ear, I would, to-day, pour out a fiery stream of biting ridicule, blasting reproach, withering sarcasm, and stern rebuke. For it is not light that is needed, but fire; it is not the gentle shower, but thunder. We need the storm, the whirlwind, and the earthquake. The feeling of the nation must be quickened; the conscience of the nation must be roused; the propriety of the nation must be startled; the hypocrisy of the nation must be exposed; and its crimes against God and man must be proclaimed and denounced.

What, to the American slave, is your 4th of July? I answer; a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciation of tyrants, brass fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are, to Him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy -- a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages.There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States, at this very hour.

Abraham Lincoln, "Second Inagural":

The Almighty has His own purposes. ``Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!'' If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offences which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope---fervently do we pray---that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said ``the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether.''

Martin Luther King Jr.: "Why I Am Opposed to the War in Vietnam" --Sermon at the Ebenezer Baptist Church on April 30, 1967:

And don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine, messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with judgment, and it seems that I can hear God saying to America, "You're too arrogant! And if you don't change your ways, I will rise up and break the backbone of your power, and I'll place it in the hands of a nation that doesn't even know my name. Be still and know that I'm God."

Jeremiah Wright :

"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, God damn America, that's in the Bible for killing innocent people. God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, " 700 Club," September 13, 2001:

JERRY FALWELL: I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil, first time, and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters; the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats, what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact, if in fact God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve.

PAT ROBERTSON: Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population.

JERRY FALWELL: The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this.


JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen'.

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government.

John Hagee, sermon broadcast on TBN, December 19, 2007:

Right now, the State Department is in Israel putting pressure on Israel to give concessions to the terrorist armies that are camped on her borders--to give up more land for peace. Joel 3:2 says, "Any nation that tries to get Israel to divide my land, I will bring it into judgment."

I want those of you in the State Department and in government in Washington to hear this: If America does not stop pressuring Israel to give up land, I believe that God will bring this nation into judgment, because I believe what this book says. And if God brings this nation into judgment, He will very likely release the terrorists that you've already let get here through the ridiculous immigration policy you refuse to stop, and this nation is going to go through a bloodbath that you have permitted because of what you have done. You have disobeyed the law of God, and now, we as a nation are going to pay a price for that.

If America does not stop pressuring Israel to give up land, I believe that God will bring this nation into judgment, because I believe what this book says. And if God brings this nation into judgment, He will very likely release the terrorists that you've already let get here through the ridiculous immigration policy you refuse to stop, and this nation is going to go through a bloodbath that you have permitted because of what you have done. You have disobeyed the law of God, and now, we as a nation are going to pay a price for that.

John Hagee, interview on NPR's "Fresh Air" with Terry Gross, September 18, 2006:

HAGEE: All hurricanes are acts of God, because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they are -- were recipients of the judgment of God for that. The newspaper carried the story in our local area that was not carried nationally that there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came. And the promise of that parade was that it was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other Gay Pride parades. So I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing. I know that there are people who demur from that, but I believe that the Bible teaches that when you violate the law of God, that God brings punishment sometimes before the day of judgment. And I believe that the Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans.

GROSS: So I know you're very opposed to homosexuality, but you think that the whole city was punished because of things like the forthcoming Gay Pride parade.

HAGEE: This is true. All of the city was punished because of the sin that happened there in that city.

I don't know about you, but I think it's high time we put a stop to all this.

Impeach Thomas Jefferson!

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God vs. America | 74 comments
Depressing (0.00 / 0)
The discourse has become impoverished over time... Oh, perhaps I'm being anachronistic.

Can it happen here?

Well done (4.00 / 2)
Unfortunately, Thomas Jefferson would probably be tarred and feathered if he appeared upon the modern American scene, and Frederick Douglas would be pilloried as an America hater. I think Obama's doing the best he can, given the circumstances, but it's going to be tough going with the Faux News crowd on this one. Anyone who thinks that we'll ever have a legitimate black candidate for President who has both a bona fide connection to the black community, and simultaneously has no connection to anyone who ever said anything angry about America is living in a dream world. It would be nice of the Jeremiah Wright's of the country would pipe it down for a bit,  but the anger is out there whether Obama has a connection to it or not.

Pipe It Down For A Bit??? (0.00 / 0)
How long's Obama known him?  And how old is he?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
He's old and Obama's (0.00 / 0)
known him for a long time. But that doesn't mean that he can't understand that righteous black anger and indignation is not particularly helpful to Obama's campaign and maybe he can leave that discussion alone for six or eight months and focus on the task at hand: bringing people together to create a better future for all of us.

[ Parent ]
The Ultimate (0.00 / 0)
I have been waiting for the ultimate coverup for Obama and this seems good enough for now. Well at least it is equal to yesterdays 'silence' on how Obama wants to disenfranchise the voters or Florida and Michigan because it may jeopardize his run for President. Not a  frigging word against Obama from his supporters even when they were asked about it. Nope! Just turn their heads. Move a long, nothing to see here. Voters? What voters? The netroots has been infiltrated by non-believers in democracy. Democracy is now defined by one 2 year Senator. It's scary.

We all remember McCain's Pastor John Hagee's comments and how McCain caught hell for disagreeing with what Haggee said but didn't reject the man himself. Now Obama does the same thing and his supporters give him a total pass. Move a long, nothing to see here.

It scares the hell out of me to have a man possibly become our nominee when supported by deaf, dumb, and blind people. Deaf, dumb, and blind in the sense that it is selective and purposeful deaf, dumb, and blindness.

The fact is people that Wright is the guy who Obama has been listening to for many years now. And this is not the first time Wright has preached this kind of shit. This has been him MO for many many years. But did Obama ever repudiate what Wright said in the past? NO!

Not only did he not repudiate it - he embraced Wright:

Obama told MSNBC television he was not ready to "repudiate the man" who helped him find faith, baptized his two daughters and officiated at his wedding ceremony.

Marriage. Baptisms. Find Faith. On and on.

Obama listened to Wright's radicalism for a lot of his adult life by choice. He was in that church saying "Amen Brother Wright".

But of course now Obama is in the spotlight running for President and has reinvented himself thanks to the selective deaf, dumb, and blindness of many of his supporters.

Deaf, dumb, and blind to who he has chose as his spiritual mentor and preacher to his children. Deaf, dumb, and blind to his rejection of voters of two important states.

Yeah we have reached The Ultimate coverups.

But come the General these types of things are going to help put McCain in the WH.

[ Parent ]
... (4.00 / 1)
But come the General these types of things are going to help put McCain in the WH.

And I imagine you will be working to help put a Democrat in the White House?  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
You know what (0.00 / 0)
the point of my post was. And you chose to ignore it because it is the truth.

[ Parent ]
... (4.00 / 1)
You chose to insult rather than debate. And then you expect us NOT to ignore your points?

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
If you consider (0.00 / 0)
the truth an insult then that is on you. The truth in a post in never an insult - it is just the truth. Given how you can't argue that it isn't the truth then I assume you accept it as the truth.

No supporter of Obama here disputes what I said including you.

[ Parent ]
Just a question (0.00 / 0)
if you had to rank Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and John McCain in terms of your presidential preference, how would you do it?  

[ Parent ]
Not a coincidence (0.00 / 0)
he didn't answer it before. Watch, he'll dodge it again.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
That answer is pretty obvious (0.00 / 0)
I'm a life long Democrat and a Clinton supporter. Can you add that up?

In fact I've been a Democrat longer that some posters here have been alive.

[ Parent ]
Well, so have Joe Lieberman and Jim Marshall (0.00 / 0)
but that doesn't make them better Democrats (or former Democrats), does it? I'm not good at math, but I can handle addition, and yet you've offered me no concrete answer.  So I have one more, even simpler question for you.  So simple that you only have to write five characters (six, at a maximum).  I think you can handle that.

In the 2008 presidential general election, if between the Republican, John McCain, and the Democrat, Barack Obama, will you vote McCain or will you vote Obama?

[ Parent ]
... (0.00 / 0)
This was the insult I refer to, in part...
It scares the hell out of me to have a man possibly become our nominee when supported by deaf, dumb, and blind people.

The next time you try to make a point, I suggest you edit your writing to remove these types of insults. People will take you more seriously.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
Obviously (0.00 / 0)
you don't catch on to metaphors too well. Even when I explained in my post what I meant by the metaphor.

[ Parent ]
I am pretty slow (0.00 / 0)
And I don't catch on to a lot of things. But I know when I feel insulted, and your original post was insulting. I am simply advising you to more carefully choose your words in the future so that others may not feel insulted and therefore will be more likely to consider your argument.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
Well if you (0.00 / 0)
felt insulted by a metaphor - a metaphor that was even explained so it would not be taken as an insult the I agree with you - you are pretty slow.

And no that is not an insult. Let me explain. I'm only agreeing with what you said so unless you were insulting yourself there is no way I could be insulting you by agreeing with you.

[ Parent ]
"The Ultimate Cover-up"??? (0.00 / 0)
I try to keep an open mind about Clinton people around here.  I have to assume its just the victim complex of being outnumbered.  But, comeon.  This beyond absurd.

If one of Hillary's black surrogates was seen making similar statements, I sure all this outrage would be conspicuously absent.  Anyway, I'm pretty sure the only people who actual care about this stuff people from MyDD and Freerepublic.

Honestly, how does someone even show their face in these parts after writing something this stupid?

The Politics of Bruno S.

[ Parent ]
vengefulness and rage (0.00 / 0)
are really ugly, no matter which front they come on.

I don't see them in Senator Obama.

But Jefferson, Lincoln, King... Really Ugly Dudes, Right? (4.00 / 1)
You "Impeach Jefferson" lawn signs are in the mail!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Finally (4.00 / 3)
Thank you.  At least there's still one sane person left in the blogosphere.

The Politics of Bruno S.

Good post (4.00 / 3)
I thought of Lincoln's second inaugural as soon as I heard all the fainting spells from pundits. It's also true that young public school children of all races are taught similar sentiments (voiced a bit more clearly than Wright) in the poems of Langston Hughes. I'm not sure what is says about our country that we can hand posters of Langston Hughes in schoolrooms during Black History Month but anyone talking like this in contemporary America...

What happens to a dream deferred?

Does it dry up
like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore-
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over-
like a syrupy sweet?

Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.

Or does it explode?

...is dismissed as a kook. Why hang the Langston Hughes in schoolrooms if you don't think the man had a point?

It's not like Obama didn't see this coming.

We have been told we cannot do this by a chorus of cynics who will only grow louder and more dissonant in the weeks to come. We've been asked to pause for a reality check. We've been warned against offering the people of this nation false hope.

But in the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope. For when we have faced down impossible odds; when we've been told that we're not ready, or that we shouldn't try, or that we can't, generations of Americans have responded with a simple creed that sums up the spirit of a people.

Yes we can.

Expect to hear more from a chorus of loud, dissonant cynics and know that the way to beat them is with steady, measured hard work.  

John McCain

Only the extreme far left hates America. (2.00 / 2)
I sure hope after reading this comment, you take a really good look at what you are doing and reexamine your motives.
Barack Obama claims to be a uniter, just as Bush before him.
I'm going to tell you exactly why this isn't true.
So far in this campaign, Obama and his campaign have called the following people racists: Bill Shaheen, Mark Penn, Ed Rendell, Geraldine Ferraro and President Clinton. A uniter would have heard these preposterous charges and worked to diffuse them, for the good of race relations and for the good of the country. Obama? He did the opposite. He stoked the charges and used them for his political advantage. A uniter would have said "I know President Clinton and I know all of the good he has done for the Black community. He's certainly no racist". A divider would say "there's seems to be a trend of racist comments coming from Senator Clinton's campaign".

As for Rev Wright's anti-White and anti-American hate speech...by working to downplay and even embrace his words, what you are doing is extremely bad for race relations and bad for America. What you are doing is empowering the Black community to actively hate Whites and America. You are sending the wrong message to the Black community. The message should be that hate speech is unacceptable no matter where and who it comes from, because hatred leads to violence, hatred leads to divisiveness, hatred leads to a divided country. It's time to renounce the behavior of bigots like Rev Wright and to grow together and to love each other. It's time to move forward and not look to the hate filled past.
Don't make excuses for hatred just because you happen to support a certain candidate.

And as I said about the America hating. Only extreme far leftists hate America. This center leftist and the rest of the country loves America...warts and all. And we work hard to try and make this a better country. Not by hating it and tearing it apart.

Room At The Bottom??? (4.00 / 9)
Nope!  I think you've got that covered all by yourself.

And, for the record, I'm not supporting a candidate here--though it's nice to be falsely accused of supporting Obama once in a while to balance out the false accusations of opposing him.

I'm supporting Jeremiah Wright, who I think stands on much, much firmer ground.

Only The "Extreme Left" LOVES America

Only the extreme left really takes America's promises seriously, and thus feels outraged to the core when those promises are routinely, casually, and systematically broken, with the same gleeful cluelessness that a small child might have in breaking its toys.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
This is the silliest (0.00 / 0)
defense of Obama I have ever read. A total stretch!

[ Parent ]
He's not Obama supporter (4.00 / 1)
Do you have reading comprehension problems? Its almost if you started typing once you saw he had posted.

[ Parent ]
Perhaps I do (0.00 / 1)
have comprehension problems. But I don't think so. It's a bit confusing as it seems Paul has posted defenses of Obama before. Ever notice that?

And now we have him providing examples of others who have invoked God's wrath into speeches. Seems that his point is others have done it so what is the big deal now.

His ending "Impeach Thomas Jefferson!" seems more a tongue in cheeks ending than one we are supposed to take serious. And after all Jefferson is long gone you know.

So I am not sure that it is me that has reading comprehension problems in this case give Paul's long string of posts that actually support Obama.

[ Parent ]
I Defend Obama When He's Right And Criticize Him When He's Wrong (4.00 / 2)
What's so hard to understand???

I do have a certain bias, in that I tend to respond to what I see as the greatest danger that is least well-understood.  So, early on, I had more to say about problems that people were overlooking, and lately I've had more to say in response to mounting unfair attacks.

But this is entirely about Wright, since Obama is not defending his words, and I am.

His ending "Impeach Thomas Jefferson!" seems more a tongue in cheeks ending than one we are supposed to take serious. And after all Jefferson is long gone you know.

Anyone can impeach the living.  Real men impeach the dead.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Admittingly (0.00 / 0)
I don't read all of your posts, nor do I often read your entire posts as they are sometimes very lengthy.

That said, your "certain bias" comes through a lot louder than your non-bias. That is if you can have a "certain bias" and a non-bias at the same time which I don't think one can.

[ Parent ]
My Bad! (0.00 / 0)
I should write so that folks who don't read me will understand me.

But at least I'm in good company.  Every writer in history has that same failing.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Man, Paul (4.00 / 1)
One day you should do a post that is solely commenters calling out your "obvious" pro/anti Obama bias.  There must be dozens of them for both sides, right?

The worst thing about candidate supporters is not that they constantly spam for their candidate, it's that they assume everyone else is doing the same thing.

I support John McCain because children are too healthy anyway.

[ Parent ]
he's making a point about how controversial (4.00 / 1)
language can be used to destroy people. He gives example of people, some of whom, you may consider great, and how they by your own standards that you expouse would not meet the standard.  The point is to put you in the context of not pretending that this languuage is so far beyond the American discourse that no one has uttered it that you admire. Its to get you to think a little deeper about what's motivating you. Is it really what he said, or who said it? As the Morpheus says to Matrix: I can show you the door, but you have to enter.  

[ Parent ]
We live today not yesterday (0.00 / 0)
And we judge people by what they do today and by the people they associate with.

Some often use history often to quiet their critics...

As if history changes peoples current actions and associations. It doesn't.

What someone said in the past does not vindicate what someone says in the present because what someone said in the past was not necessarily a good thing to say regardless of what other traits of theirs we admired. Jefferson et al were not saints.

Can I justify slavery today because Jefferson had slaves but we admire him for other things?

Can I justify illegitimate children or having mistresses because other admired men had traits beyond those sins that were righteous?

You see dragging out a phrase in history to justify what someone is saying today is disingenuous because you are assuming that it was OK for that person to say what they did then. Not everyone would agree that it was OK.

In fact in the netroots and the Left for many years now we have rejected the Fire and Brimstone language of many. But today because of the faux New Messiah we are now to embrace Fire and Brimstone? It's laughable. It's hypocritical - which is a point I keep making here. People abandon their past principals as a matter of convenience. Which makes one wonder whether those principles were ever existed at all.  

[ Parent ]
So You're Comparing Lincoln's Second Inaugural To Adultery? (0.00 / 0)

I thought only neo-Confederates did that.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Please (0.00 / 0)
You mentioned Jefferson and that is who I addressed.

I hate it when people like you try to put words in someones mouth to make a point. When you do that it means you can't respond to the post itself and have no point to make at all and are just trying to cover the weakness in your own argument which is what I did.

Again what someone said in the past does not justify what someone says today, nor does it mean what they said in the past was the right thing to say. That is my point and it is a valid one.

[ Parent ]
Sorry, I Forgot! (0.00 / 0)

You mentioned Jefferson and that is who I addressed.

You don't read my whole posts.

I must say, I've run into all sorts of solipsists and narcissists on the internet over the years, but you've actually added a new wrinkle.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Crushing (0.00 / 1)
just crushing. ROTFLMAO!

[ Parent ]
You are making shit up (4.00 / 1)
Look. I've been at this blog long enough -- as in weeks- not months or years- to know that the person to whom you are talking isn't an Obama support. He's making an intellectual, not messianic argument. I don't mind debating you , but you really have to come at me from an honest discourse. By the way, i also don't support Obama. I supported Edwards when he ws in the race. I find the two remaining choices to be primary ID politics gone bad. BUT, this is a discusion about how you view a person's words. Your argumet at its core is that you believe we should judge this persons comments differently. Rosenberg's point at its core is why is that the case? For a second, step outside of yourself , think about it not as what liberals are doing, or thinking, but ask-- why conservatives , where this first broke, would have a problem with fire and brimstone? This really is about the fact you refuse to realize you are in the Matrix.

[ Parent ]
I made a vaild argument (0.00 / 0)
and instead of debating the argument I made using Jefferson as an example you are trying to make this about me. How can yu be against ID politics and then try to make this about me? That is using ID politics to an extent isn't it?

I'm done with the topic. I made my point. What someone said in the past does not justify what someone says today. And what someone said in the past does not mean that it was the right thing to say. And for someone to use it as if it was the right thing to say is disingenuous. That's just the truth that you can't dispute in an easy manner.

Bottomline - None of Paul's quotes justify what Wright said or justify how Obama is still embracing this guy today or how he embraced him as a friend, mentor, and pastor - and how he never said a word about Wright's rhetoric in the past.

I did a post about exactly that in this thread and it got one comment that didn't even address what I said. The reason for that is what I posted is the 'Inconvenient Truth' and people are sticking their fingers in their ears and then their heads in the sand and pretending those facts do not exist.

You read this post and my other posts so you read the post titled " The Ultimate" too so you know exactly what I am saying.


[ Parent ]
You Repeat CW Garbage And Call It "A Valid Argument" (0.00 / 0)
And then you're surprised that folks don't bow down and kiss your ass!

The world is just sooo unfair!

The fact that you have systematically misrepresented or ignored what people are actually saying has nothing to do with it, of course.

Poor you!  You're the one who's really the oppressed minority, no?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Again (0.00 / 0)
you don't address a thing I said. Just insults and smoke and mirrors which seems to be the normal response you give to not only me but anyone else who disagrees with you and doesn't kiss you ass. lol

Next time you post old quotes to try to justify something I suggest you look a little deeper into the people you are quoting to see how impure they may be and also if those quotes were the right thing for them to say in the first place.

Of course if you agree that Fire and Brimstone is something we should now be endorsing even though we have rejected it for a long time in the past then maybe you should write a post on why Fire and Brimstone should be the new mantra of the Left.

[ Parent ]
Get Off Your High Horse, Dude! (0.00 / 0)
Jefferson was a far more complicated figure than you can even begin to imagine.

And as someone who has known about Sally Hemmings for three decades or so, I just find all this new-found "sophisticated" disdain for Jefferson tiresome beyond all belief.

Do you have any idea of the historical context for Jefferson's Notes???

Obviously not.

You are so piss-ignorant you haven't a clue how foolish you are to anyone with a semi-coherent sense of American history.

And your last line betrays, once again, that you have not even read the diary you are commenting on, as Wright's mode of prophecy is perfectly consistent with, and directly connected to Martin Luther King's.

There's nothing the least bit "new" about it.  It's only just now penetrated your cone of ignorance, that's all.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Unamerican (4.00 / 6)
Only extreme far leftists hate America.

Oooo... the scary far left! Better watch out for them!

What is it with this fairy-tale idea that Hate is never ok?
I sure hate George W. Bush, and I offer no apologizes for that hatred. Why should others have to apologize for hating a wealthy, white elite that stack the rules against everyone else? Why shouldn't we hate a criminal justice system that has imprisoned as many people as China and Russia combined? What is wrong with hating a military industrial complex that thrives on the slaughter of brown people? Why shouldn't we hate a government that bails out a major investment firm while allowing the rest of American to be crushed under the weight of a predatory credit system a profit-before-people insurance system?

But the more serious question is - why must you assume anyone who hates those above aspects of America actually hates the entirety of America? You can hate your government and love your country. It is not mutually exclusive.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
It takes love to hate a bad policy (4.00 / 4)
It is not even really hateful to damn American policies of invasion and occupation, sabotage, torture, killing and maiming of innocents, organized theft, corruption, and puppet regimes. It takes a broad minded love of all people to publicly and unashamedly damn policies like those. Damn those American policies that are based on injustice, arrogance and greed. It takes a love of justice to proclaim that.

A lot of people are to damn apathetic to give a damn. Too damned comfortable with their own damned beautiful minds. Reverend Wright aims to wake them up and the more press he gets the more success his mission has. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

[ Parent ]
"leftists hate America" (4.00 / 8)
This type of statement is an absurd caricature of true leftist sentiments. There are two ways to look at "patriotism." One is the Nazi Germany style patriotism in which one cheers on one's country regardless of the morality of the country's actions. Liberals/progressives/leftists generally reject that right-wing brand of patriotism. Then there is the type of patriotism by which one attempts to hold their country to a higher level of principles and moral and ethical behavior. That seems to be Rev. Wright's style of patriotism, and that is the only style that I can personally get on board with.


[ Parent ]
Yeah, all that hateful bile being spewed by those kids who (4.00 / 3)
work at Wholefoods is so disgusting.

The Politics of Bruno S.

[ Parent ]
Silver Lining: The timing of this brouhaha - Improved response (4.00 / 6)
The volume of the twin controversies of Resko and Wright were raised up notch starting around Friday. These occurred on a week where the press is reveling in Spitzer's fall from grace. So the GD America drumbeat is interrupted occasionally to show photos of a young women in a bathing suit. It is also five weeks before the earth transforming Pennsylvania primary and months before the general election.

My point about timing is that if you are going be embroiled in controversies of this sort is it good for them to occur with some media cover and well in advance of a critical election to provide time to heal.

I have Direct TV Newsmix which allows me to witness the smears across six or seven channels of news. I see Barack with his pastor on some channel a few times an hour. I don't see much converage of Rezko. The coverage seems to be diminishing and fading into a background din. Obama has been improving in his response and push back against this frame. It is also reinforcing that he is not a Muslim.

Part of the story here is that people seemed to be shocked that a predominantly black church on the south side of Chicago does not sound or look like a predominantly white church in East Tennessee. Do you mean to tell me that Barack goes to church every Sunday with black people. OMG!

The Wright controversy will probably hurt with people who are looking for an excuse to be afraid of a black man. I don't think it will be the end of the line for Obama.

I would like to see a better defense of Wright from the religious community. If Wright could be defended then it would transfer to Obama.

Great post. I am glad to see Wrights comments in context with these other quotes.

I had not heard this part of the quote:

God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme."

What I couldn't understand about the Wright (4.00 / 5)
brouhaha was -- where did he say anything that wasn't true? I mean really.

And how how messed up is it that saying uncomfortable truths is unpardonable, but outright lying, such as the Republicans have been getting away with for years, is just "the way things are."

No, a prophet is not without honor, save in his own country.

Montani semper liberi

A Stuck Pig Squeals (4.00 / 3)
If it wasn't true, folks wouldn't be so upset.

Outrageous accusations often make folks laugh.

Accurate ones, not so much,

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
i support wright as well, but.... (0.00 / 0)
The problem isn't the content of Wright's sermons, which as a DFH I generally agree with in a big way. It's his extremely close connection to Obama, and the intense visuals. After viewing those videos, it probably becomes very easy for a certain type of voter (your "security moms," your "Reagan Democrats"...ugh) to see Obama as a Manchurian candidate for an ultra-liberal black separatist agenda. Wright pushes racial fear buttons in America that Obama has, until now, skillfully navigated past. Strategery dictates a discussion about whether or not this is enough to successfully swift-boat or Dukakis-tank Obama in the fall.

I hardly need to mention that McCain, as a well-liked regular old white guy, will not suffer from his association with nutball Christians to the extent that Obama, as a black guy, will suffer. Again, I point to the visuals. For a large portion of American, black people are still scary, and those videos of Wright pretty much embody that fear. And I'd bet that a lot of these people are swing voters.

I don't really know what to do, because to deny Obama the nomination because of strategic concerns over Wright could be seen as giving into to racism (or fear of racism), but on a list of priorities, winning the White House is pretty much at the top. So I'm flummoxed.

the facts are there for those who care to see (4.00 / 2)
Where does Wright say anything about separatism? His church site says the opposite - http://www.tucc.org/ -

W.E.B. DuBois indicated that the problem in the 20th century was going to be the problem of the color line. He was absolutely correct. Our job as servants of God is to address that problem and eradicate it in the name of Him who came for the whole world by calling all men, women, boys and girls to Christ.

• Black theology is one of the many theologies in the Americas that became popular during the liberation theology movement. They include Hispanic theology, Native American theology, Asian theology and Womanist theology.

• To have a church whose theological perspective starts from the vantage point of Black liberation theology being its center, is not to say that African or African American people are superior to any one else.

• African-centered thought, unlike Eurocentrism, does not assume superiority and look at everyone else as being inferior.

Find the facts at -


The fact is - the die-hard racists will manage to find a justification for their hatred no matter what any candidate or surrogate or supporter says. We may get to find out whether America in 2008 is still too racist to elect a black man.

[ Parent ]
impressions (4.00 / 1)
I'm not accusing him or his church of separatism. In fact, I'm not accusing him of anything, as I said I agree with most of what I've heard him say. But impressions matter way more than facts in our politics, and it is my contention that those videos will be toxic to swing voters. I'm not talking about die-hard racists, obviously they're a lost cause. I'm talking about basically decent people who have remnants of racial fear. This association might be enough to push them over to the other side, especially since McCain is mythologized as such a moderate and a likeable fellow.

[ Parent ]
United Church of Christ defends Wright and Trinity (4.00 / 2)
Chicago's Trinity UCC is 'great gift to wider church family'

In the wake of misleading attacks on its mission and ministry, Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ is being lauded by United Church of Christ leaders across the nation for the integrity of its worship, the breadth of its community involvement and the depth of its commitment to social justice.

Your commentary is just depressing in (0.00 / 0)
its inability to confront the problems raised by Wright's sermons.

Try, if you can, to find anything from any of these writers which compares with "God DAMN America", OK? Or "US of KKK A". Or, in my view the very worst, "America's chickens are coming home to roost".

The last is the worst simply because of the open satisfaction, even relish, Wright was expressing in his comment - to the point of adopting a mocking, derisive tone. And who can doubt that he was inspired by an infamous remark of Malcolm X's:

When asked for a comment about the assassination of President Kennedy in November 1963, Malcolm said that it was a case of "the chickens coming home to roost." He added that "Chickens coming home to roost never made me sad. It only made me glad." This remark prompted a widespread public outcry. The Nation of Islam publicly censured their former shining star. Although Malcolm retained his post and rank as minister, Elijah Muhammad banned him from public speaking for 90 days.

And it is telling that the essay that established Ward Churchill as a target of great public outrage was entitled "On the Justice of Roosting Chickens".

Even by his own admission, Obama knew about these remarks in 2007, yet kept Wright involved in his campaign on a committee. And it's going to be nearly impossible for people to believe that Obama would not have been aware of Wright's comments soon after their utterance -- this was the first sermon after 9/11, this was as extreme and "provocative" a position as could have been uttered in America at that time, this was the church which Obama and his entire family attended, presumably on a regular basis, and yet he heard nothing whatever about these remarks?

I wonder if any informed and objective person will imagine that these issues won't be used by the right wing in an attack against Obama, should, Heaven forfend, he become the nominee.

You're right (4.00 / 1)
the Republicans are going to attack Obama if he becomes the nominee. I hope it's not to late to just call off the whole primary process, and coronate McCain.

And maybe if we send the GOP a fruitbasket with a nicely written apology, they will forgive us for all the trouble we've caused.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Call the primary off?! (4.00 / 2)
Why do that when we can just also nominate McCain at our convention? The Republicans will never be able to beat us if we run the same candidate as them!

I support John McCain because children are too healthy anyway.

[ Parent ]
The Halo of St John (0.00 / 0)
They already tried this in 2004 when McCain was the top choice for the VP slot.

And the Dems wonder why no one takes them seriously when they  point out the obvious-i.e. he's a thug, warmonger, crook, etc.

Having already welded the halo to his head, it shouldn't come as a surprise that they're having a hell of a time knocking it off.

[ Parent ]
I tried. (4.00 / 3)
I tried so hard, so, so, hard, to find something that compared to those comments. It took me all of thirty seconds, because it's IN THIS FUCKING POST.

I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen'.

President Bush declared a national day of mourning when Falwell died. The only thing that makes Wright's sermon worse is that he's Black.  

I support John McCain because children are too healthy anyway.

[ Parent ]
Irrelevant comparison (0.00 / 0)
Look, it's one thing to point, as does Falwell, to the intervention of God to right supposed moral wrongs, and to see it as Divine punishment for our sins. It is quite another thing to be relishing the events as justice served, on this earth, by mortal man, for things America has done to other people. Religious people often allow that many events which they believe God is responsible for may be acts of Divine Justice, because all events, in their world view, derive from Divine Justice, and yet, if a mortal person had brought them about, they would be considered barbaric and unforgivable. Most religious people understand that distinction very well, and so are far more forgiving of the claim that any particular act might be an act of Divine justice.

But what's clear about what Wright was saying was that he saw 9/11 as an act of human and earthly justice. There was no invocation of God's will. There was nothing more than a litany of injustices the United States supposedly perpetrated against other people to back up his claim that "America's chickens are coming home to roost" -- indeed the very phrase implies that it's not any Divine intervention, but something that America has done on this earth that has brought those consequences, quite justly, back to the US.

Now, you can try all you want to pretend that these differences aren't real -- but virtually any American voter will understand instinctively the difference between what Falwell was saying, and what Wright was saying. The fact that Wright so obviously relished in it, and even mocked the events with the "humor" of chickens coming home to roost (replete with hand gestures to make it "funnier") is only going to seem more outrageous.

And, of course, even what Falwell said, which was not nearly as ugly as what Wright said, brought him widespread condemnation. And Falwell was NOT Bush's pastor of 20 years, his "spiritual adviser" and "sounding board", nor did he marry Bush and baptize his two daughters.

The problem for Obama is that he does have such a relationship to Wright, and that Wright's comments were as vile as anything I can recollect being said after 9/11, with the only possible exception of Ward Churchill's. It won't be too hard to get people to remember how very strongly most Americans felt after 9/11. Emotions ran so high that even a relatively innocuous comment from Bill Maher agreeing with a guest that, no matter what, it really wasn't accurate to call the terrorists cowardly, essentially got him fired.

Most Americans will pose for themselves a simple thought experiment: If I had heard my own pastor come out with such a statement, uttered with that tone and in that manner, in his first sermon after 9/11, would I have stayed with the man, and shown him my full support, and continued to confide in him, or would I have walked out, in utter disgust.

If you don't know that the vast majority of American voters would choose the second without hesitation, you have no credibility when it comes to talking about American politics.  

[ Parent ]
So in other words --IOKIYAR. (4.00 / 1)
Got it. Thanks.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Do you really think (4.00 / 2)
that we live in a world in which the United States has done no wrong, that we have always obligated ourselves to act in accordance with the highest standards of morality, justice and human rights?

Ask the people of Guatemala about Jacobo Arbenz.

Ask the people of Iran about Mohammad Mossadeq.

Ask the people of the DRC about Patrice Lumumba.

Ask the people of Spain about Francisco Franco.

Ask the people of Chile about Salvador Allende.

Ask the people of El Salvador about Oscar Romero and Herbert Anaya.

Ask the people of Indonesia about Suharto.

Ask the people of Argentina about Jorge Videla.

Ask the people of Paraguay about Alfredo Stroessner.

Or just Google "Operation Condor."

Have we completely forgotten about Iran-Contra?

For f'ck's sake, our current Director of National Intelliegnce stood by silently despite human rights abuses in Honduras when he was ambassador to that country.

Take a look at this nice little picture here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi...

We absolutely have done some really bad things in the world - things that ultimately have not helped us, and have not helped the people of these countries.  So really, when you ask yourself, why might Reverend Wright say these things, think about history for a little bit.  I'm inclined to believe that our numerous suspect international actions have much more to do with anything negative that happens to us than the fact that we're a country that supports a woman's right to choose and is getting better and better of LGBT rights.  You better believe the comparison is relevant.

[ Parent ]
so what you're saying (0.00 / 0)
is that Wright was, well, right, that the US has done means we deserved 9/11.

Fine, you go with that.

Just don't have a problem, though, when people wonder whether you have any patriotism, OK?

How different are you from Ward Churchill, after all?

[ Parent ]
Obtuse (0.00 / 0)
Wright was, well, right, that the US has done means we deserved 9/11.

Let's pretend the US had pursued a isolationist foreign policy and a closed economy over the last 50 years. Would adherents to radical Islam have targeted the United States on 9/11/2001? Clearly, no, of course not.

Using charged words like 'deserved' just serves to confuse the issue. The 3,000 victims of 9/11 no more deserved their fate than the hundreds of thousands of victims of the War in Iraq. It is not a matter of 'deserving'.

But are there reasons for the attacks of 9/11? Of course there are reasons - and many of those reason are rooted in US foreign and economic policy, as well as the policies of many other Western, Arab and other nations. Wright was correct in pointing out that 9/11 did not occur in a vacuum. We are an aggressive nation and that is one of the reasons we are the target of aggression.  

"Don't hate the media, become the media" -Jello Biafra

[ Parent ]
Now THAT'S deep. (4.00 / 3)
"People" will call you names if you question government policy. Well I guess we better knock it off, right now, before they get mad.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
You Know The CATO Institute Made This Same Argument (0.00 / 0)
And I don't see anyone drumming them out of the national conversation.  (And the DOD's Defense Science Board made the argument before them: US intervention causes terrorist retaliation.)

The fact is:

(1) US actions have fueled the anger that lead, in part to 9/11, as well as other terrorist attacks.

(2) The CIA even has a term for this: "Blowback."  So now we've got to get rid of the CIA, too, right?

(3) If we actually took these simple facts to heart, we could actually put an end to terrorism.

(4) But it's much more narcissistically satisfying to blame "evildoers," and thus turn hundreds of millions of people against us, doing much more effective recruiting for the terrorists than they could ever do for themselves.

And you're telling us that we're the ones who hate America?

Dude, wake up! You're in bed with bin Laden.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
A pathetically weak reply (0.00 / 0)
You don't get the difference between the neutral assertion that we may have done certain things that have made it more likely that we would experience the terrorism of 9/11, and the obvious relish of Jeremiah Wright in the events of 9/11 literally days after they took place -- to the point that he even turns it into a joke, with "humorous" gestures to make the punch line "funnier"?

Do you really believe that the average voter doesn't see the difference between these two sorts of statements about 9/11?

Really, if you want ot defend the likes of Jeremiah Wright and/or Ward Churchill, go ahead.

Just don't pretend to be offended when people start to question your love for our country, and say that you aren't like normal patriotic Americans, OK?

Because, obviously, those accusations couldn't be fairer.

[ Parent ]
Truth Is Pathetic In Your Eyes (0.00 / 0)
And tone is everything.

Got it!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Really (4.00 / 1)
you're quite full of it.  I didn't say we deserved ANYTHING.  I'm simply making a practical argument - when we interfere in the domestic affairs of other countries, ostensibly under the pretense of helping ourselves rather than helping them, they don't like it.  Thus, they don't benefit, and we don't benefit.  I'm not suggesting we deserved it - I'm simply saying that it could be reasonably expected, and that we have to honestly assess why people are really f'cking pissed at us.

When our troops get suicide car bombed in Iraq, or when pregnant Palestinian women strap themselves with explosive vests and blow themselves up in cafes frequented by Israelis, they're not doing it because of the fact that they're Muslim and we're Judeo-Christian - they're doing it because they feel that multiple acts of intervention have led to their compromised political and socioeconomic status.  If you want to understand just a little bit about terrorists and suicidal acts of violence, I suggest you read some Robert Pape - he offers some really interesting insights into why things are the way they are.  At the least you'd be more informed than you are right now, and not have to fall back on ridiculous personal accusations and slander.

[ Parent ]
Forty years and many reasons why Obama liked Wright (4.00 / 4)
I'm certain the right wing will attack Obama with chains of guilt by association that are even more conjectural and convoluted than the ones you've made right here.

Wright was mocking and derisive? That's your own conjecture. He has the same "gladness" as Malcolm X? That's your own conjecture. Ward Churchill's essay is "telling"? It tells me that the "roosting chickens" metaphor has a long and varied history of being used by many people for many purposes.

Obama knows Wright can be a provocative speaker. A handful inflammatory statements have been cherry picked from a 40 year career, and Obama has denounced those 100%. Why did he stay with the church and give Wright an honorary campaign position?

Because Wright is a nationally respected religious leader. His Trinity United Church of Christ is the largest UCC congregation in the nation. That makes it powerful, and Wright has used that power in the service of a social gospel   for transforming the community. Under Wright, Trinity United organized a drug and alcohol recovery ministry, a prison ministry, a commitment to mothers who have been incarcerated, and a youth ministry. Under Wright, Trinity United welcomed all races. Under Wright, Trinity United espoused "profoundly conservative values of self-reliance and self-help." And along with those values, Wright preached that the more successful members should give back to the church community and help the less fortunate.  

[ Parent ]
mocking and derisive: absolutely (0.00 / 0)
All any objective person has to do is view the video, listen to the content, the tone, and the "humorous" hand gestures.

[ Parent ]
Watched it objectively and don't see it (0.00 / 0)
I've watched the video several times. I see no hint of mockery or humor. I see no implied disrespect for the WTC victims themselves. I see anger at unjust American foreign policies. You might be right that there is some derision in Wright's sermon -- he is derisive of politicians and their sycophants who think we can go on and on invading and bombing, and killing and injuring the innocent, decade after decade and never have any bad consequences or ill will blowback in our faces.

[ Parent ]
Wright and Obama (4.00 / 1)
I've been blogging about this topic on my site: http://swimmingfreestyle.typep...
Excerpt from today's post:

I've blogged about the unbalanced scrutiny the media is devoting to Wright versus it's examination of John McCain's "spiritual advisor" Rod Parsley.  I wonder if we'll see, on a future "This Week", video clips of Parsley calling for a holy war, a new Crusades, to destroy Islam and the panel discussing the implications for McCain's candidacy.  Perhaps a debate of the political implications for McCain of John Hagee's hate filled anti-gay or anti-Catholic screeds.  Or will we just crack them up as crackpot fundamentalist ministers and understand that these dimwitted views don't reflect John McCain's moral base?

politics of belief (0.00 / 0)

Above is a link to David Kuo blog Beliefnet.
He offers some very good insight - and praise - for Sen. Obama's ability to separate the "sin" from the "sinner"

Anyone who bothers to research Sen. Obama's writings, read any of his books understands that when he went to Chicago as a community organizer at 27 years of age - not a as a child -- he was advised to join the Church to understand the plight of the black man. That this would help him do a better job in the community.

Obama came to Chicago with a black face but as a white man.

The multiple culture and as Obama says "little bits of America" in him are what makes him truly unique. He stayed at the Church for the good works they did for the community. This is not in dispute.

That over the course of 20 years Rev Wright said some deplorable things is also not in dispute.

What is most upsetting about this whole episode is that if thinking people are willing to abandon a cause and a movement based on a few minutes of targeted, isolated video - how commited were they in the first place?

Obama is the same man he was before FOX and co started incessantly replaying the same clips over and over again.

Was what Wright said about 9/11 vile? Yes but I hate to tell you what my Rabbi said at the service after 9/11 and am glad for his sake no one videotaped it

Obama is to be commended not derided for being able to separate the messenger from the message --
Maybe if we had people in government who could do this we would not be having the fifth anniversary of a pointless war this week

If we allow ourselves to be manipulated by YOU TUBE then shame on us all

God vs. America | 74 comments

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