Wright Was Righter Than You Think

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Mar 23, 2008 at 22:06


While Barack Obama's speech on race last Tuesday was widely hailed, even by some conservatives, it was hardly flawless, nor will it put an end to race playing a role in this election.  To the contrary, it will almost certainly come to be seen as an inflection point, a place at which the nature of the racial discourse changed, not where it ended or began.

The right's continued racism has been noted this weekend by both David Neiwart and Glenn Greenwald.  While Greenwald treats it more tentatively, reflecting his lawyerly background and temperament, he sticks to his guns against "balanced" tut-tutting that would characterize what he's doing as "guilt-by-association" no different than that practiced on the right.  Neiwert, however, quite literarly, wrote the book  (Rush, Newspeak and Fascism [PDF]) on the orchestrated transmission of hard right (typically, but not always racist or anti-semetic) memes from the fringes into the mainstream, though that isn't his focus in this weekend's post.  It's just something that everyone should be thoroughly familiar with by now.  Trust me, we're going to need it.

I'll have something to say about both posts on the flip, but first, there's this, from Mel Reeves at Black Agenda Report:

When did Black liberation theology and the prophetic tradition of the black church become "hate speech"?  When did asserting that racism was and remains foundational to the nation's settlement, development and culture become itself "racist" and "anti-American"?  When did advocacy on a wide range of fronts and issues begin to take a back seat to the advancement of political figures who build careers and multiracial electoral coalitions by convincing whites that they have repudiated what Barack Obama famously called the "excesses of the sixties and seventies."

And, indeed, if one looks at the paragraph of Obama's speech in which he distances himself from Wright, it is clearly troubling from a reality-base perspective...

Paul Rosenberg :: Wright Was Righter Than You Think
Here's what Obama said:

But the remarks that have caused this recent firestorm weren't simply controversial. They weren't simply a religious leader's effort to speak out against perceived injustice. Instead, they expressed a profoundly distorted view of this country - a view that sees white racism as endemic, and that elevates what is wrong with America above all that we know is right with America; a view that sees the conflicts in the Middle East as rooted primarily in the actions of stalwart allies like Israel, instead of emanating from the perverse and hateful ideologies of radical Islam.

Setting aside the question of whether Obama's characterizations of Wright's remarks are accurate, are they credible on their own terms?  Is it, indeed, "a profoundly distorted view of this country" to see racism as endemic?

Consider the evidence I presented last weekend in "Two Long Recessions", including this chart of black vs. white unemployment:


and the press release of the study that found employers in the New York City areas were slightly more willing to hire white convicts than blacks with similar backgrounds, but no criminal record.

How can such basic facts possibly be explained without recourse to "endemic racism"?  What other explanation is there?  Evil pixie dust?

Of course we're not talking about old-fashioned KKK-style racism.  That's still around in some parts--as Neiwert and Greenwald help remind us.  But no one is saying that sort of overt racism is the cause of continued discriminatory treatment.  It's much more subtle than that, as described, for example, by Eduardo Bonilla-Silva in Racism without Racists: Color-Blind Racism and the Persistence of Racial Inequality in the United States.  But it's still racism, and it's still endemic.

Is it "a distorted view that elevates what is wrong with America above all that we know is right with America"?  Or is the fact that blacks have experienced an endless recession in itself proof enough that it's not a distorted view, but a reality-base one?

And what of Obama's implicit claims about the Middle East?  This, too, is what he calls "distorted":

a view that sees the conflicts in the Middle East as rooted primarily in the actions of stalwart allies like Israel, instead of emanating from the perverse and hateful ideologies of radical Islam.

But it's a simple matter of historical fact that the emergence of political Islam came decades after Israel drove the Palestinian people off of their ancestral lands.  Indeed, Israel itself promoted the growth of political Islam--specifically, Hamas--among the Palestinian people as a misguided attempt to weaken the PLO.

This is hardly an excuse for suicide bombs and other forms religiously-sanctioned terror.  But it is a simple matter of historical accuracy.  Israel's fearful attitude has its true historical source in Europe, and centuries of persecution there, climaxing in the Holocaust.  The Muslim world had no part in that.

While it's certainly true that Obama generally struck a positive, inspiring tone in talking about race in America, it is undeniably true that he has wrongly accused Jeremiah Wright of being wrong on the above issues.  This is not to say that I agree with Wright in every particular.  i have not made a minute study of everything he has said.  But neither has anyone else that I know of.  I am only speaking of how Obama has characterized him.  And that characterization simply does not hold up.

This is hardly surprising, if one truly understands the basics of black history in America.  Those who speak honestly to and for the black community have always been seen as radical extremists.  That is a simple and direct consequence of how terribly white America has treated black America.  Have we made progress?  Absolutely!  Permanent recession is a definite advance over slavery.  No one denies that.  But is this anything close to equality?  Surely, you jest!

This is the unspeakable reality that Obama's call for openness requires us to deny.  In order to get the "honest" "open" dialogue going, we have to first get rid of the inconvenient truth-teller.

Then, we can get down to business.

Of course, that's not quite how the right sees things, now is it?

David Neiwart writes:

Take, for example, Pat Buchanan's column on the Obama flap, titled "A Brief for Whitey":
    It is the same old con, the same old shakedown that black hustlers have been running since the Kerner Commission blamed the riots in Harlem, Watts, Newark, Detroit and a hundred other cities on, as Nixon put it, "everybody but the rioters themselves."

    Was "white racism" really responsible for those black men looting auto dealerships and liquor stories, and burning down their own communities, as Otto Kerner said -- that liberal icon until the feds put him away for bribery.

    Barack says we need to have a conversation about race in America.

    Fair enough. But this time, it has to be a two-way conversation. White America needs to be heard from, not just lectured to.

Ah yes. Anyone who's been around racial politics for any length has heard all about how black civil-rights advocates are in fact "race hustlers." And it isn't just Buchanan making this kind of remark about Obama: So, for that matter, have those sensitive folks at Powerline. A Townhall blogger even called Michelle Obama a "race pimp."

But really, the richest line in Buchanan's column -- the one that no doubt resonates most with black voters -- was this one:

    We hear the grievances. Where is the gratitude?

Damn, I'm sure most black people forgot to be grateful for segregation, the lynching era, sundown towns, and the continuing discrimination they face both in employment and in residence. Because the institutional conditions created by those decades of bigotry have in fact gone largely unchanged, though to white guys like Buchanan, that simply isn't a factor:

    Is white America really responsible for the fact that the crime and incarceration rates for African-Americans are seven times those of white America? Is it really white America's fault that illegitimacy in the African-American community has hit 70 percent and the black dropout rate from high schools in some cities has reached 50 percent? Is that the fault of white America or, first and foremost, a failure of the black community itself?

Well, I'm sure black voters are convinced by that argument. After all, it's obvious that the matter of continuing discrimination is just an illusion in their heads.

And, of course, I also pointed out last week that more white youth smoke marijuana than black youth, but the arrest statistics are wildly skewed in the opposite direction.

Neiwert goes on to quote from Limbaugh as well, before concluding:

What you'll notice in all this, of course, is that all these folks really aren't concerned about black people at all. They're talking to white people, and basically reinforcing the stereotypical view that there's just something wrong with those black people. Why else can't they see that conservatism is really about their greater good?

Folks like Limbaugh and Buchanan and Bridget Johnson like to complain that when blacks vote for liberals en masse, they're engaging in "identity politics". As always, they forget that "identity politics" in America was in fact created, and deeply institutionalized, by white people.

And there's no small irony when the efforts of the historical victims of identity politics to break down those institutions is denounced as merely members of a racial identity group defending their own narrow interests. That's what we call the "projection strategy."

As always, this means that Republicans are giving us a warning about their own upcoming strategy. So when they begin accusing Democrats of indulging racism, we can be quite certain that the forthcoming election season will be nothing less than a full-on onslaught of Republican racism -- excused, of course, by the claim that "they do it too."

Greenwald strikes a related chord when he writes:

When the Right uses dishonest tactics to demonize a Democratic candidate -- as they just spent the last two weeks doing with Barack Obama -- one has two options and only two options:
    (1) Turn one's nose up and declare oneself to be far above such tactics, way too noble to get anywhere near them, so that one can pat oneself on the back for one's purity and goodness ("I didn't use Paisley and Hagee against McCain because that's not right to do") while spending the next four years complaining about the John McCain administration; or,

    (2) Take whatever standards the Right uses -- no matter how depraved and dishonest those standards are -- and demand that they be applied equally, not only by them, but also to them, to ensure that these distortive tactics are either applied to both sides or not at all.

Both Neiwert and Greenwald are 100% correct.  But what I said above about Obama compromising the discussion of race from the get-go is also correct.  Consider what else Mel Reeves said at Black Agenda Report:

Obama is no longer prepared to be associated with a clergyman who preaches from a very political and unashamedly "Black" perspective - a liberation-motivated worldview that requires criticism of white American political culture and encourages resistance to white supremacy. Rev. Wright's church covenant celebrates positive values and the uplift of the black community - both of which require pro-Black advocacy and support for activism - positions that are generally seen as suspect by tens of millions of white Americans. Obama used to believe - or pretended to believe - that a religion that focuses on "your own house" is not exclusionary, its good common sense.

He and his church have the right to focus on the needs of black folk first and foremost, since blacks are still victimized and oppressed in this country. And they should not have to apologize for a church covenant that celebrates positive values and the uplift of the black community. To focus on your own house is not exclusionary, its good common sense. All religions are based on specific, historical points of origin: Palestine for the Jews, Mecca and Medina for Muslims, Rome for Roman Catholics, the United States for those Protestant denominations that were begun or transformed in America, Salt Lake City for Mormons, India for Hindus, etc. Black American Protestantism is derived from U.S, racist exclusion of Blacks in all arenas of life, including white churches. There is a "liberation" component in all Black-created denominations, not just the Nation of Islam. Yet whites reserve the right to decide what Black faith is "kosher," i.e., acceptable to them.

We still have a very long way to go.


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Paul your posts (0.00 / 0)
are always incredible, well written, provocative, that is a fact.
I don't always agree with them, but they make me think.

But  after this week all I cn say is Oye!


Semantics (0.00 / 0)
Is it, indeed, "a profoundly distorted view of this country" to see racism as endemic?

I think this comes down to a semantic question of what Obama is referring to by "racism" in this context.

But no one is saying that sort of overt racism is the cause of continued discriminatory treatment.

Well you can say that, but Obama's comments make sense if this type of definition (or something near it) is what he imagined when composing that sentence. His theme was about how we are building a more perfect union. He was saying that seeing certain problems, such as racism, as static and unchanging was an incorrect view of the country. And I think that is the context of this quote.


But It's Not Clear That He Is Accurately Describing Wright's Beliefs (0.00 / 0)
After all, it's widely acknowledged that Wright is very warm and welcoming to individual whites.

So he seems, on the face of it, to make this sort of distinction himself, while Obama is implicitly denying it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I'm resisting the temptation (4.00 / 1)
To craft some kind of defence of Obama on these fronts.  It feels too much like apologetics.

I don't know the right approach, I guess it comes down to whether it is better to speak the unvarnished truth and be castigated in your lifetime and maybe acknowledged much later for being ahead of your day, or to water down to the point of being acceptable and try to pull the overton window an inch or two towards where the truth will be morally permissible.

I respect both perspectives, but I feel like it shouldn't be all on Obama to do the former.  I tend to think back to that anecdote of FDR saying to some activists "Ok you convinced me, I want to do it, now go out there and make me do it"

So many debates within progressive circles seem to hinge on incrementalism versus radicalism.  


But You Recognize The Trade-Off (4.00 / 2)
You're not in denial about the situation.

And that's my point.  We're supposed to be the reality-based community.  We should act like it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
An Obama Apologetic (4.00 / 1)
Obama's overarching goal in his speech last week (was it just last week?) was essentially to say, "America has race issues it needs to deal with." This is actually a huge, huge idea for a lot of white Americans. That's just where we're at.

Most white Americans are simply in a state of denial-- Buchanan speech is a prime example. He says that the reason for American society's racial inequalities is a failure of black culture, period. That's the explanation. America doesn't have a problem. THEY have a problem which WE (resentfully) have to deal with. Or self-righteously refuse to deal with.

For Obama to come out and make that point is about as radical as it's going to get when it comes to presidential nominees.  


[ Parent ]
Well, Our Job Is To Do More (4.00 / 1)
For Obama to come out and make that point is about as radical as it's going to get when it comes to presidential nominees.
 

"When the people lead, the leaders will follow."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
true enough (4.00 / 1)
But at the same time, Obama's speech made me realize that despite his "post-racial" campaign, having him as president makes a lot more discussion possible.  

[ Parent ]
True (4.00 / 1)
This is another aspect of Tom Hayden's argument, endorsing Obama's movement.  He stirs things up beyond his own intention.  And I agree that this is the most promising thing about him.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
he was an organizer (4.00 / 1)
what makes you think he doesn't know that that's the effect of what he says? :)

[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 1)
I agree.  I just felt leery of falling into defending a pragmatic compromise as a moral virtue.  Paul's response to my comment sums up my feelings on it.  If we have to make compromises to get things done, just so long as we are clear eyed about what we are doing and do not self-delude.


[ Parent ]
Obama's overarching goal (4.00 / 1)
Obama's overarching goal in his speech last week (was it just last week?) was essentially to say, "America has race issues it needs to deal with."

Obama's goal was to save his political skin. Thus the comment about Israel, quite transparently meant to assuage the fears of Jewish voters.

I don't know if it's possible to be a successful politician and speak truth to power.  


[ Parent ]
You mean Israel supporters? (0.00 / 0)
"Jewish voters" are not a monolithic cabal, and not all supporters of Israel are Jewish.

Anyway, Paul, I'm curious about the narrative you provide for Israel:

But it's a simple matter of historical fact that the emergence of political Islam came decades after Israel drove the Palestinian people off of their ancestral lands.  Indeed, Israel itself promoted the growth of political Islam--specifically, Hamas--among the Palestinian people as a misguided attempt to weaken the PLO.

This is hardly an excuse for suicide bombs and other forms religiously-sanctioned terror.  But it is a simple matter of historical accuracy.  Israel's fearful attitude has its true historical source in Europe, and centuries of persecution there, climaxing in the Holocaust.  The Muslim world had no part in that.

So the U.N. decision in 1948 to create Israel was illegitimate?

Further, it's not OK for us to shirk our agreements with the U.N., but when Arab nations did it in 1948, that was fine?  It's a blot on our history to put Japanese-Americans into internment camps during WWII, but Arab nations expelling all Jews after 1948 is understandable?

Honestly, do you really think right after the Holocaust was the time for NIMBYism?  That's what prevented eventual victims from getting away in the first place.

In any case, how specific did Obama need to be here?  Just because the PLO wasn't religious, do you really think they're not a part of what Obama was getting at?  Again, I refer to the abortion/assassination risk question I put below:  Just because an aggrieved group resorts to asymmetrical warfare doesn't automatically make their cause just.


[ Parent ]
I'm Afraid What We Have Here Is An Example, More Than An Analysis (0.00 / 0)
When you get very picky about the details on one side, and very loose about them on the other ("Just because the PLO wasn't religious, do you really think they're not a part of what Obama was getting at?") then you are using two different sets of standards, and that's always symptomatic of Social Dominance Orientation in action.

Given the longstanding history of US and Israeli contempt for the UN, this sort of argument stands on very shakey ground.  This ground is even shakier, given that the UN Security Council had permanent seats for BOTH parties to the hated Sykes-Picot Agreement, which betrayed all promises made by T.E. Lawrence (aka "Lawrence of Arabia") which motivated the Arab revolt against the Ottoman Empire.

Politically legitimacy is not something that simply can be proclaimed.  It is something that has to be earned.  And perhaps the strongest argument one can make against our Mideast policy is the damage it has done to the legitimacy of the UN and other international institutions.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Strike that, reverse it (0.00 / 0)
Re Obama/PLO:  I ask that question because you have a habit of parsing Obama's words extremely narrowly.

As for the rest, I was actually imputing to you what you're imputing to me:  I claim you're letting Arab neighbors of Israel off the hook on things that you wouldn't allow Israel or the U.S. to get away with (namely, expulsion and internment).


[ Parent ]
Thanks for that, Paul (4.00 / 6)
We at Black Agenda Report, and lots more on our side of the tracks believe that our community's conversation is a legit part of the larger American one.  We are disappointed that Obama chose to try to defend himself without appearing to defend that legitimacy.  Disappointed, but not surprised.

"If you want that good feeling that comes from doing things for other people, then you have to pay for it in abuse and misunderstanding..."
Zora Neale Hurston


Not Just A Legit Part, A Vital Part (4.00 / 2)
And I should be linking to you more often.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Where the Hell Was BAR? (4.00 / 4)
My problem with BAR criticizing Obama is that it holds him to a higher standard than his opponents.  Neither Clinton have ever tried to address racial tensions--and in fact they've benefited from racial strife (from Bill's war on crime in the '90s to Hillary's exploitation of the Wright controversy)--so why is Mel Reeves ripping Obama a new one now?

My other problem is where the hell was BAR when this blow up happened last week?  Why weren't you contacting MSM for fair coverage?  I sent several emails to news organizations.  But besides the new pastor of TUCC, no community leader came out in defense of Rev. Wright.  Why wasn't BAR leading some sort of boycott against FOX, CNN, MSNBC, and ABC News?  I'm still pissed about this because Obama was left defending his church alone.  An now you want to criticize him.


[ Parent ]
I got banned from Mydd by Armstrong (4.00 / 2)
for asking him to give me a concrete explanation describing exactly what was so offensive about what Wright said. I am not an Obama supporter, but  I find all the over the top "I am offended" analysis well, over the top.

Many actually simply repeated along the thread- that I must be stupid not to get why what Wright said was offensive. That I must be blah, blah blah. None of it answereing my questions

In the process, he ended up calling me out by writing an update to his post regarding Wright by saying he answered by question. Basically, he answered by telling me he went to Africa for several years, or so such mess.

As a response, I linked him to "Stuff White People Like", a satire site, dedicated to well what the topic suggests. One of which was a post similar to his response back to me- basicaly a non answer.

My point? Well, basically, you can't even get the left to do what you are saying. I am not seeing how you are going to get the middle and the right to do it. Ironically toward the end of the diary, some bothered to actively engage in the conversation that my question was meant to raise, but by that point I was banned.

I don't see how you are going to have conversation so long as Armstrong represents the mentality of this country. Any attempt to discuss race int the real is seen as a political prop rather than trying to see what our differnces are, and how they can be resolved.


That would make you a race hustler, though (4.00 / 2)
--I've been personally stymied by the scourge of "political correctness", the term, not the concept behind it. The term itself is a strong bulwark against the sorts of talk we should be having on race, ending and discouraging discussion and debate, leading to a large change in the national, even international conversation around racial/ethnic relations. It seems to lead to impossible standards for "proving" racism and makes the idea that America and Americans could be racist itself untenable in public discourse. Basically, it's made "racism" a four-letter word and that to be perfectly honest, has been a nigh-perfect tool to force colorblindness on America and anti-racism underground.

Is this what you mean in your last sentences, "I don't see how you are going to have conversation so long as Armstrong represents the mentality of this country. Any attempt to discuss race int the real is seen as a political prop rather than trying to see what our differences are, and how they can be resolved."?

--Why can't racism and economic inequality be tied together? I would think an adept politician would be able to show that endemic racism and economic inequality are linked, that class is tinged and smeared with the ugly brush of racial bigotry, and that the appeals to race that have worked so well in the past belie the robber baronism that takes from me and you roughly equally. (At least I hope it's close to equal)


[ Parent ]
What I mean is that if the first response is to ban (4.00 / 3)
anyone who questions someone's thinking,t hen nothing changes. He's perfectly fine to deal with this as someone calling him racist. That's how he wanted to respond. That's a well oiled pathway for progressives. I asked him something harder.  He tried to answer.  He was condescending with the whole "I've been to Africa, and, am therefore" what exactly? is what I thought of that answer. It's nto like that told me how Wright's comments were offensive. Just that it somehow meant he prove in his mind, and a few others, his bona fides. A lot of symbolism meaning nothing if the first response to dialogue is to ban. It wasn't an answer to the question of  race when i asked him to explain why Wright's comments were offensive to him. Its after the bare conclusion, "it's offensive," was suppose to end the conversation. You can't get to the economic issues if that's your stance. I refused to do that. he's not a racist. But I think he's very political. He wanted to discuss this as Clinton v. Obama.  But seems to have felt a nerve touched when I refused to play on those terms by asking him to explain his thinking. I didn't ask about his creds, and I didn' ask about what Obama should do politically. I asked about the underlying narrative upon which his analysis was based. To ask what exactly was racist about Wright. My point here to Rosenberg is that its hard to address this issue left, right or center when some many are willing to use it for political gain or are unable to even discuss the issues in terms other than bare assertions.

[ Parent ]
Maybe Jerome is not "the left", and maybe you (0.00 / 0)
sometimes comment to inflame discussion.  I have viewed several comment threads you have been on, and at times, I would agree with banning you.  

You like to stir trouble, and act like you are just asking questions, so I do not exactly think Jerome banning you stifles discussion.

That said, Paul has written another solid post, and he does seem to be willing to teach me (and you) time after time, with patience and tact.  I can't believe how much he provokes thought about topics in ways that I had not even begun before reading his posts.

Paul, who are you to do that so well, so often.  I really appreciate Open Left, and Paul, so Good on ya, mate.  


[ Parent ]
You are blaming me (4.00 / 3)
for asking a question that is exactly along  the lines of the issues Rosenberg raises? You call that "stirring up trouble"? Are you sure you want to find out what different people think? These aren't fake questions. I am trying to understand your response here which mostly seems to be to generally demonize me without discussing the issues I am raising bout whether Democrats are equipped to discuss these issues.

Why did Armstrong find Wright's comments offensive? That's what I asked him. Are you saying that asking him that question is per se offensive? That's what I was told. Why is the question offensive or a reason for banning?

I am not much for precise language on blogs- whether Armstrong is left, progressive, centrist or  Democrat- asking him why Wright is offensive shouldn't cause such a reaction, but it did. The fact it did tells me that Rosenberg is right , but it's broader than the right.

I made it clear I didn't think Armstrong was racist. Let me repeat that- I said he wasn't a racist.

I took pains to indicate I was really looking for him to give me an idea of what he means because, for example, what was so offensive about stating that 09/11 was the result of blow back? Does anyone disagree with this?

One commentator said that it was offensive because Wright said there was a black genocide. I said there was- it was called slavery- do you disagree with that?  It's easy to attack me now, but with the specifics, I think what you call "stirring up trouble" was just me being critical of what I was reading. I think the real issue, as one poster said, was that there nothing wrong with what I wrote- it was because it was the owner of the site not wanting his views challenged. That's fine, but don't pretend like there is anything more provacative with what I asked him than what Rosenberg is writing here. We are saying exactly the same thing. In fact, Rosenberg is being a bit harsher- because I phrased it as a question.

People regularly say things on mydd about Jerome who aren't banned for saying it. He's seen them say it.  I've never called him a name. Others have.  I've never said he was racist.  Others have. I've never attacked him even when I disagree. others have.  I was  disagreeing, and asking  a question. Are you saying questions- as one poster said- now are all loaded? one said my question was like asking someone 'when did they stop beating their wife?" Why is asking someone why they find something offensive a loaded question? Several later posters actually managed to give me some pretty good answers but they actually bothered to answer.  

My question and his failure to answer was the basis of the banning.

You can make up generalized reasons after the fact to state that he did it because you personally don't like me (let's be honest thats what you just wrote)

The truth is that's not what happened or else I would have been banned years ago. I've not changed my style. He's seen it. I am a pretty consistent skeptic.

What you call 'stirring things up' is skepticism. He's never felt the need to ban it. I've said harsher things. The problem was the subject. That's why he felt the need to talk about his biography. It's a common tact when one brings up race, and the person is uncomfortable with it. Hence why several other posters also found his comments about going to Africa bizzare. Their words. Not mine.  Because what did it have to do with why he found Wright's words offensive. He didn't explain. Yes, he's the owner of the site. But as a Democrat one would hope for better reasoning than I dont want to be questioned.

Do you think Armstrong's mentioning going to Africa as an answer to my question about why Wright was offensive to be an answer to a legitimate question?  Those were the circumstances.  The only think that happened after that was my linking to a satire site because of how bizzare his response was.

He also didn't have a problem with anything else I've written in the past or else I would have been banned years ago. I was there since 2004.

This appeal to what you feel to  personality is really a fallacious argument. It doesn't speak to the question. So you make it about the questioner.

b) Rosenberg and I have never had a problem because he actually answers the questions using reasoning. What you call "stirring things up" is called reasoning through arguments rather than simply following because I'm suppose to be on a team. We already have one establishment. Replacing one with another maybe okay with you. But, I ask questions, or "stir" things up in the hopes of finding something better. Many of you-- I am not really sure why you are here other than an echo chamber.  


[ Parent ]
Clearly, you are just causing problems! (4.00 / 3)
For example, you put a "b)" in that comment without an "a)"!  You can't do that!!  Troublemaker.

[ Parent ]
Yeah :) (4.00 / 2)
I need to head to bed. I  found the response to my questions -- you are being a "troublemaker"  , well, ironic given Rosenberg's diary. I also find it frustrating because I keep expecting better out of people who say they are Democrats with certain values because what they really mean is my "team versus yours."  My questions were meant to be about the values rather than the politics. My suspicion, although I can't prove it, is that the problem with the question was that it wasn't about the narrative he was trying to build. I was being a skeptic, and that's not really what people want to see or read. It's easier to dimiss the political operatives calling him a racist than speak to the harder questions of in your own words explain why you find the comments offensive.  

[ Parent ]
Ironic? (0.00 / 0)
I'd say your more guilty of droll understatement than anything else.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
The same mentality that prompts P. Buchanan (0.00 / 0)
to ask Blacks to express a little "gratitude" drives the view of "blow-back" and 9/11:

" I took pains to indicate I was really looking for him to give me an idea of what he means because, for example, what was so offensive about stating that 09/11 was the result of blow back? Does anyone disagree with this? "

While few would disagree that the 9/11 attacks might be in response to long-term US policies - some might simply write-off that motive the same way Buchanan write-off Black anger - "where's the gratitude?".

Personally, I don't see it that way and I did not find anything in Rev. Wright's comments that were racist or anti-American.  In fact, I interpret his "goddamn America!" statements as a kind of patriotism - he wasn't damning the IDEA of America - rather the inability we seem to have in actually becoming the America we idealize.

As for Obama's response (I listened to the whole speech), it was rather good - but very politically intended. He's walking a tight-rope.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
I agree with that analysis (0.00 / 0)
I thought his speech was fairly good for a politician, but it wasn't great by a long shot.

[ Parent ]
Half Right (4.00 / 2)
Jerome is certainly not "the Left."  That much should be obvious to folks who've paid attention to who he's supported over the years.  Having Chris as the main voice at Mydd for several years may have mislead folks as to Jerome's politics.  Jerome deserves a lot of credit for doing that. But it doesn't make "the Left."  He can be an ally of "the Left" sometimes.  And sometimes not so much.

But bruhrabbit commenting to inflame discussion?  Good lord!  Do you carry smelling salts?  You'd ban him?  Look, I'm glad you appreciate my posts.  Very glad.  But overall, I'd say that bruhrabbit is much more reasonable than I am, much more willing to take the approach of "well, remember, these are politicians we're talking about, yadda-yadda-yadda."

He is, however, tenacious.  If you don't answer his question, he will ask it again. And again. And again.

As is entirely proper.

That's only "inflammatory" if other folks are trying to hide the ball.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
If the press were half as committed to not allowing people (4.00 / 1)
to bullshit and spin, then we would be much better as a country. It's amazing how people rely on hiding the ball as their approach to analysis. I admit I take it as a personal afront when someone tries to spin me.  They think that their right to have an opinion is a basis for just making shit up.  I think something different, which is normally what 'stirs" them up. This is the core thing for me-- be honest, be fair, and be reasonable. Oftentimes-- more likely than not- what causes the argument is that I am not accepting the spin and talking points as the final answer. I wasn't suppose to question the basic premise of his argument or anyone else's argument without being a partisan or labeling the speaker with some extreme label like racist. This is the echo chamber quality of blogging that I don't get. Was the point of "Crashing the Gates" to replace one establishment with thier own version of it that's only slighlty better?  

[ Parent ]
This Is Always The Danger (0.00 / 0)
Was the point of "Crashing the Gates" to replace one establishment with thier own version of it that's only slighlty better?

I don't think it was the point, so much as the result of a pernicious process of "maturation" that has hit some places harder than others.  I remember as a kid, the most common adult dodge of dealing with difficult, unanswerable, or simply discomforting questions was "you'll understand when you grow up" (or "when you're older").  The exepectation is that you'll become compromised, conflicted, or corrupted, just like everyone else.  No doubt the fury I felt at hearing such answers over and over and over again is one of the reasons I retained my "sez who?" attitude.

But putting it like that is as good a way as any at puncturing the ballon.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Good post, glad this is out there (4.00 / 2)
Great post, Paul.  I think Obama went about as far as he could in is speech as a presidential candidate in today's window of discourse.  I too cringed at his Israel line, as thought more could have been said as to the reality of racial division, as evidenced by your points above.  However, operating in the current framework of acceptable dialog, he pushed the boundaries about as far as a presidential candidate could in 2008.  His speech was the most realistic one on race in America given by someone of his stature, but it is still not an accurate diagnosis of what is is really happening.

It's a little too much to expect Obama to have done more with his speech given the current climate and the context the speech was given in.  The job of progressives is to continue to push to change that climate, so reality is better represented, which will go a long way toward finding solutions to our most intractable problems.

Glad to see this being raised.


I knew it (4.00 / 1)
There was something about the speech I just didn't like. That was it. Personally, it was a little off-putting to hear Obama have to reject and denounce Rev. Jeremiah Wright's words with explaining WHAT he was rejecting or denouncing. There was no clarification as to which words were bad, the whole thing sucked according to my home state senator. That was politically necessary and yet sad. It verified as "true" in the media that Rev. Wright is an evil, awful, vile, disgusting, 'afro-racist', as Pat Buchanan would say.

SIDENOTE:I for the life of me, though, can't find the racism in the clips of Rev. Wright. Any ideas?

I really liked the speech otherwise. Before this post, though, I guess I had supressed that angst and disappointment in favor of Obamaite fervor. Thanks for bringing me down to Earth again.  


It was a good speech for a politician (4.00 / 2)
The problem is that some hold Obama to a standard that I think is unrealistic. Its why no one could ever get traction on the Iraqi vote issues that he's made. Rather than discuss the actual vote, one was left dealing with arguments about how up is down, right is left, and black is white. Obama's votes made sense, but no one else's did. My thing on the subject was that none of our candidates had entirely clean hands, and we are talking about balancing their mistakes, not whether they all made mistakes. The same conversation occured with healthcare. Now, that conversation is occuring iwth race. The fact is, of all his speeches- this is to me the most risk taking speech he has done. He could have pulled a Clinton and simply tossed Wright under the bus. Certainly the establishment would have preferred he did. That he didn't was a sign of encouraing small changes, although not huge ones.

[ Parent ]
Yes, Precisely (4.00 / 1)
People are saying this is the greatest speech on race in 40 years.  Obviously those folks need to get out more.  They've clearly never heard Randall Robinson, Cornell West, Adolph Reed, Desmond Tutu, Glen Ford, etc., etc., etc.

But, compared to other presidential contenders, well, it's certainly the best speech in 20 years, since Jesse Jackson ran in 1988.  That much is true.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Another great post, Paul! (4.00 / 1)
And I like the fact you reference Eduardo Bonilla-Silva's "Racism without Racists: Color-Blind Racism and the Persistence of Racial Inequality in the United States". One of the best books I've read regarding modern day racism. (I wonder if Stephen Colbert read that book because he does a great parody of color-blind racism when he says to a guest who happens to be a minority: "I don't see race. I don't see color! What I see in front of me is an American."

In a way, I am sympathetic towards Obama because I know as a black man he can not run as a candidate who forcefully lays down the law. As you said, America has a history of not appreciating black truth-tellers. However, I'm just not sure if he becomes president how he'll push through any progressive policies to address black grievance without being met with resistance from people who bought the idea that he's "post-racial". Just look at the exchange between Dick Morris and Alan Colmes last month:

COLMES: But I want to ask you about something that Sean brought up, which has to do with a support from Louis Farrakhan. Are we going to smear Barack Obama because Louis Farrakhan likes him as a candidate? Is that something that's even -- should even be on the radar screen?

MORRIS: It shouldn't be at all. I mean, I think the important thing about Obama is that he ran -- he's been running really like a Republican black candidate, liberal on the issues, but running without any reference to race at all. He doesn't say, "Elect a black man," any more than another guy would say, "Elect a bald man." He simply is a candidate who happens to be black, and I think that's what people find really refreshing about him.

Or Bill Bennett:

I have been watching him. I watched him on Meet the Press. I watched him on your show, watched him on all the CNN shows -- he never brings race into it. He never plays the race card. Talk about the black community -- he has taught the black community you don't have to act like Jesse Jackson; you don't have to act like Al Sharpton. You can talk about the issues. Great dignity. And this is a breakthrough, and good for the people of Iowa.

When I read people say that Obama never "pulls the race card," to me that means he never addresses black inequality.

How does a black president address racial inequality when his entire campaign ran on the notion that he's "above" race?


Those were Republicans and... (4.00 / 2)
Like I believe Chris alluded to in an earlier post, this is part of the problem with Obama's "unity" theme. I am a bit embarrassed to say it, but I'm coming around to see the real flaw in Obama's "Republicans and Independents like me too" idea. Once there's anything from any supporter at any time that FOX could get their hands on, they would pounce and try their best to tear Obama apart, and without building strong left-leaning bridges with Democratic voters of large numbers, Obama loses a huge piece of the pie in a single moment, a moment that I'm starting to realize was coming either way.  

[ Parent ]
Exactly! (4.00 / 1)
In a sense, I understand Obama's strategy, but it's not a winning one long term. He has too much working against him to address economic disparities that cripples minority communities without being tarred as another Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton. Hell, black neo-cons such as Thomas Sowell, Shelby Steele, Larry Elder and Walter Williams are already painting him as such due to the Wright affair. I believe had he ran as a true economic populist, rather than a vague neoliberal candidate that might have made an impact. Then again, I'm not sure if that would have worked, either.

He's really caught between a rock and a hard place.


[ Parent ]
That is how Jesse Jackson ran (4.00 / 1)
his campaigns.  

Black Republican critics, of a certain generation, will never allow for a Black Democrat to be seen as "just a candidate who happens to be Black" -- they can't because it destroys their world view, and how they have sold their integrity/souls for power at the expense of their community.

As for the idea that Obama should have run a more "populous" campaign, all I can say is: John Edwards is home watching UNC BB games.  There are some political realities at play here, and Obama recognizes them.  Furthermore, Obama is not the "populist" you want him to be, and for him to campaign as one would be perceived as phony.  That was John Edwards' problem...true or not, many felt he wasn't authentic.


[ Parent ]
This is why I said early on his supporters are doing him (4.00 / 3)
no favors with their views of how to address race- which was essentially to treat it as food coloring. That Obama was for too many of them the "magic negro" and as such what happens when we come back down to earth, and the realities of America being America comes into play? Hope and unity are wonderful things, but they happen in context and with the hard work of being real each step of the way. This is something that most of my friends have been discussing since mid last year when he first started to rise. We experience these things as a daily part of our lives. People are perfectly willing to accept you as long as you don't remind them that you are black. For some, they thought this was merely skin color, but this is false. It's about understanding the way our society workds, and the forces at play.  He did the best he could last week as a politician to talk about them, but at the end of the day-- as I said to one supporter of his- he still remains a black guy. This isnt' going to change. Going "thank god that's over with' misses that reality.

[ Parent ]
Obama running like a black republican? (4.00 / 2)
Nice quote from Dick Morris
I think the important thing about Obama is that he ran -- he's been running really like a Republican black candidate, liberal on the issues, but running without any reference to race at all. He doesn't say, "Elect a black man," any more than another guy would say, "Elect a bald man." He simply is a candidate who happens to be black, and I think that's what people find really refreshing about him.

In a sense, Obama's current act owes more to, and would not have been possible without the careers of black Repubs like Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice, and yes, even Clarence Thomas than it does to black leaders who stood up in the face of white disapproval and sometimes white terror like Dr. King.    Without the Colins, the Condoleezzas and the Clarences preceding him it would have been impossible to convince nearly as many whites that it was even possible that an "articulate" black person would safeguard establishment interests over those of the despised black minority.  

"If you want that good feeling that comes from doing things for other people, then you have to pay for it in abuse and misunderstanding..."
Zora Neale Hurston


[ Parent ]
But he is a black man (0.00 / 0)
and none of the people you mention ran for office. They were appointed our were activists.  

[ Parent ]
Yes, But They Were Public Models Who Reassured White America (4.00 / 1)
That's Bruce's point and I agree 100%.

In fact, Obama's appeal through biography is precisely identical to Thomas's "Pinpoint strategy" to get himself on the Supreme Court, and it's reflected as well in the training that Obama volunteers get to talk about their Obama conversion experiences, rather than anything to do with policy.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
HIV/AIDS, backlash, and other ramblings (0.00 / 0)
The only thing I found problematic from Wright was his suggestion that the U.S. government created HIV/AIDS to bring down the black man.  I tend to have little tolerance for this kind of conspiracy theory.

But that's it.  I've watched the longer sermons with the "offending" statements and found them perfectly fine.  They are powerful in a way that forces you to think and feel; they certainly are not safe.  I have no problem with that at all.

What bothers, but does not surprise me, is how Obama is associated with Wright's words.  To me, Obama's rejections of Wright's most extreme style is part of the Obama narrative, not in opposition.  In essence, Obama is saying this style is understandable and was once useful, but it's time has past.  Given the stagnation of the black condition since the early 70's it is hard to disagree.  The next step taken is different than the previous one; something new is required.

I'm not sure what the next step is.  I'm not even completely sure Obama knows what the next step is, though his presidency alone will help to some degree (I think).  The backlash to affirmative action seems to be doing enough harm to counter the positive effects, though canceling affirmative action could be even worse.  Wealth-based affirmative action might help more.  But then again, welfare isn't race based and it gets plenty of racist backlash.

Probably the fist step is to fix our racist court system.  Somehow.  The most important thing after that would be for the black community to embrace education as the solution, but I have no idea how to start that or what the obstacles may be.  (Perhaps the female half has already done this and can lead the way??)

Anyway...  at this point I'm just rambling along.  Good post, as always, Paul.


Thank you for this post--now I geek out (0.00 / 0)
I have been waiting for a stronger left critique of Obama's approach for a while.  I think that in terms of political expedience, Obama did the right thing in several instances, but I or others I know who are (sort of) supporters of him and certainly over Hillary Clinton were disturbed by several particular points in the speech and in his rhetoric in general, though still appreciating the vast improvement he represents on contemporary discourse.

How can such basic facts possibly be explained without recourse to "endemic racism"?  What other explanation is there?  Evil pixie dust?

On intuition and all else that I read, I don't disagree that racism is a significant factor here.  However, for the purposes of generating a more rigorous discussion on your chart of unemployment, I have some points.  Your basic argument, as I understand it, is that unemployment statisics correlate to race.  So there's the basic flaw in which you conflate correlation and causation.  Purely on the basis of this chart, you can argue that a) race is a causing unemployment; unemployment is causing race (an explanation let's agree to discount); there is a third variable in play that's not shown; the aggregates you use (i.e. black and white) are not sufficiently nuanced to make the most appropriate judgement about what these statistics mean.  And perhaps I'm leaving something out, since I'm not trained in the social sciences to the extent I would like :)  Moreover, because you do this over a long period of time, if you broke the timeline down into different segments (say before 1970 and after) you might get different results for each of these questions.

So, for example, if you were to create a chart of unemployment by race, gender, income level, class, citizenship status, education level, people who live in communities with low capital stock, and a number of other indiciators, along with unemployment figures, then we would be able to get a better sense of what's going on.  For example, if you came up with a chart that broke out White people who's parents were unemployed for significant numbers of years from the rest of the White population, you would be able to better look at the extent to which lack of social mobility is correlated to these factors.  Similarly, if you added more races, genders, etc., you would be able to offer a more nuanced analysis...where do Latinos fit in?  The undocumented?  The Lao?  A more complicated story would help you better place your point, assuming, as I do, that it has a kernel of truth.

A second question, raised by others, is what "racism" means here.  While you're looking at a macro picture, which I  think makes it less relevant what the factors contributing to Black unemployment are, at the same time, it is important to distinguish the forms it takes.  For example, I would assume that most people would distinguish between the practic of segregation and the current era, even accounting for "de facto" segregation in vast areas of american life through the prison industry, ex-felon laws, etc.

There is the third question, that even if I grant that Blackness is a  significant causal factor in poverty, I would be inclined to look at whether the rate is diverging or coverging with White America--i.e. if you accept that racism against Black people is a significant factor, has it gotten worse or better?  The chart seems to indicate that it's about the same.  This is, however, not a challenge to the basic meaning of the chart but simply more of a "how fast should change work?" argument.  It's often implicit in development analyses of other countries in terms of looking at whether GDP per capita is converging or diverging.

On the question of aggregates, since you're using unemployment figures, I'd also be interested in knowing whether reporting of unemployment (which is a politically motivated statistic) differs among Whites and Blacks in the U.S. or more generally how it was measured in this chart.

So that would be your pixie dust (or part of it anyway) :)

Forgive me for endlessly overcomplicating things--again, intuitively, your basic point, I think, is important for people to drill into their heads--that discrimination (whether structural or personal or both) against Black people still exists, and it makes me mad.


Employment Interview Studies (0.00 / 0)
Employment interview studies, such as the one I cited, are the clearest way of demonstrating that the correlation between race and unemployment is a causal one.

Do others, such as Latinos and Lao suffer as well?  That's what my calculus professor (also Latino) would have called "intuitively obvious."  Do the other factors you allude to play a part?  Again, I would say that they, too, are intutively obvious, but not to the extent that they account for the black/white difference, as the interview studies control for all such factors.

As for questions about income convergence, etc., one needs to take into consideration factors such as the continued wealth gap, even when black incomes do converge.  Thus, simply comparing members of the middle class, blacks remain much poorer than whites.  And the subprime meltdown is disprtoportionately a loss of assets by Blacks and Latinos, precisely because they have been discriminated against in becoming homeowners the old fashioned way.

Then there's the whole "white flight" phenomena, and the systematic de-industrialization of heavily minority cities.  (Someone I interiewed recently informed me that people are now farming in Detroit.)

So, lots of worms in them thar cans.  But none of them change the bottom line.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
What they mean and what they say (0.00 / 0)
Paul, your points are well taken, for the most part, but you are gliding over the problem Obama has here.  The problem is that although the people Obama is defending himself from do generally believe that racism is no longer a problem (all the while espousing various bits of standard racist ideological nuggets), the problem is that Wright is not only decrying this (legitimately), but also all too famously making statements that are completely indefensible, such as the charge of deliberate spreading of AIDS in the Black Community, and others which are matters of opinion not subject to proof or disproof, but still third-rail inflammatory - such as "chickens coming home to roost" -  which incidentally is the same phrase that got Malcolm X disciplined by the Nation of Islam back in the sixties.

So even though I think we can agree that the people who can't put Wright out of their minds are more focused on the first kind of issues than the second, they get around this by hypocritically focusing their attacks on the inflammatory statements, using them as a cover for their real objections.

Since Obama can't defend the indefensible, he is more or less forced to put distance between himself and Wright and hope that people will be smart enough to see through it.  From a left perspective your points are well taken, but one should have no illusion that Obama will or even could handle this any differently than he has.  

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


From the transcript of Wright's sermon (4.00 / 2)
Wright in fact brought up Malcolm X in the sermon itself.

"I heard Ambassador Peck on an interview yesterday - did anybody else see or hear him? He was on FOX News, this is a white man, and he was upsetting the FOX News commentators to no end, he pointed out, a white man, an ambassador, he pointed out that what Malcolm X said when he was silenced by Elijah Mohammad was in fact true, he said Americas chickens, are coming home to roost."

Then Wright talked about a list of inhumane policies the U.S. government has followed. Then,

Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred. And terrorism begets terrorism. A white ambassador said that y'all, not a black militant. Not a reverend who preaches about racism. An ambassador whose eyes are wide open and who is trying to get us to wake up and move away from this dangerous precipice upon which we are now poised. The ambassador said the people we have wounded don't have the military capability we have. But they do have individuals who are willing to die and take thousands with them. And we need to come to grips with that.


[ Parent ]
In the specifics, they're both wrong (0.00 / 0)
As I commented regarding a similar conflation by dday at Hullaloo here.

"Both" meaning the Ambassador and Rev. Wright as pertains to 9/11.  My best interpretation of Oswald's motives is that he felt the need to be a catalyst for history, which you might be able to argue was the result of what he saw of the U.S.'s foreign policy while abroad.  Not that Malcom X knew who assassinated Kennedy when he made his comment, he was projecting his feelings about U.S. policy onto the event.

But seriously, "Chickens coming home to roost" wreaks of schadenfreude, of gloating, no matter who says it.  Trying to use 9/11 as a "teachable moment" requires a surprising lack of empathy, given that the policies usually espoused demand empathy from us.

And yes, Dr. King warned of God removing His favor on us if we didn't change our ways, but he didn't speak of that as redemption, as something to be desired; he spoke of it as a warning.

The use of 9/11 to say "I told you so" by people as far ranging as Wright and Sontag on one side, and Fallwell and Robertson on another is disgusting all around, since none of the motivations given were what the actual terrorists expressed.  We should no more accept projections from the left on the motivations for 9/11 than we accept projections of Saddam Hussein's involvement in it from the Bush Administration, or projections of our "sinful ways" by Fallwell, et al.

Not to mention, "blowback" can happen with policies we agree with as well.  Consider:  Would you ban abortion because it puts medical professionals who perform the procedure at risk of assassination?


[ Parent ]
The long and illustrious history of blowback (0.00 / 0)
"Blowback" was acknowledged by the CIA long before 9/11, Sontag or Malcolm X.

The term "blowback" first appeared in a classified CIA post-action report on the overthrow of the Iranian government in 1953, carried out in the interests of British Petroleum. In 2000, James Risen of the New York Times explained: "When the Central Intelligence Agency helped overthrow Muhammad Mossadegh as Iran's prime minister in 1953, ensuring another 25 years of rule for Shah Muhammad Reza Pahlavi, the CIA was already figuring that its first effort to topple a foreign government would not be its last. The CIA, then just six years old and deeply committed to winning the Cold War, viewed its covert action in Iran as a blueprint for coup plots elsewhere around the world, and so commissioned a secret history to detail for future generations of CIA operatives how it had been done . . . Amid the sometimes curious argot of the spy world -- 'safebases' and 'assets' and the like -- the CIA warns of the possibilities of 'blowback.' The word . . . has since come into use as shorthand for the unintended consequences of covert operations.

"Blowback" does not refer simply to reactions to historical events but more specifically to reactions to operations carried out by the U.S. government that are kept secret from the American public and from most of their representatives in Congress. This means that when civilians become victims of a retaliatory strike, they are at first unable to put it in context or to understand the sequence of events that led up to it.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/pos...

Totally disagree that if one recognizes blowback in action it has to mean gloating or any insensitivity. Now because of the Iraq War we'll be getting even more blowback in the future - all around the world - according to the Council on Foreign Relations. This keeps the military industrial complex very happy and profitable.

The current war in Iraq will generate a ferocious blowback of its own, which -- as a recent classified CIA assessment predicts -- could be longer and more powerful than that from Afghanistan. Foreign volunteers fighting U.S. troops in Iraq today will find new targets around the world after the war ends.

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/...


[ Parent ]
Timing, as they say, is everything (0.00 / 0)
Warning about blowback is very different from bringing up blowback while people are still having funerals.

Moreover, the use of our support of Israel, as Wright and Sontag did, by your own definition, wouldn't be blowback since it's far from covert.

Even using the covert requirement with respect to our support of the Mujadeen in Afghanistan, and the eventual creation of Al Quaeda, it doesn't seem to fit the common use of the term, which seems to apply to operations where we overthrow an indigenous government, not help repel an occupier.  Further, it seems odd to use one of the few covert operations that actually helped accelerate the collapse of the U.S.S.R. as an example of what to avoid.


[ Parent ]
Wait- now I am confused (4.00 / 1)
It's almost 7 years  out from 9/11, and we still can't talk about blowback without people becoming offended? And, look at what you are doing- its fine to say that Rev Wright was wrong- but you are having to argue nuiances of meaning that one didn't get when reading how "offensive" he is. One wouldn't expect this sort of nuiance in offensiveness.

[ Parent ]
Or--To Go With The Nuance Theme, A Little Bit... (0.00 / 0)
we can talk about blowback, just so long as no one pays any attention to us!

If they do, then it's offensive!

Call it the Heisenberg Absolute Certainty Principle.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
And people wonder why our foreign policy is fucked up (4.00 / 1)
I am not a pacifist by any stretch of the imagination. I see this differently. I am more of a Powell Doctrine person. When you can't even admit to the problems you faced in executing foreign policy goals and the mistakes you have made aren't discussed so as to create accountability, you have crippled your ability to have effective strategy. There is no way even if the stars were perfectly aligned that Iraq or Afghanistan could have worked  out differently. To suceed, you had to first admitted it was blowback and understand what happened to get you there. The simple fact is the mentality of the voters and leadership themselves made it an impossibility. The situation itself was impossible to begin with,but with this level of denail, you aren't going to get anything than what we got.  

[ Parent ]
The argument in meaning was imposed, not offered (0.00 / 0)
T Maysle's definitions of "blowback" were the impetus for me to be so nuanced, I don't think my original point requires that level of detail:  The actual causes of 9/11 weren't a result of violence we perpetrated abroad, they were a result of Bin Laden's offense at Infidels having military bases in Saudi Arabia.

I've been thinking about what to write about this for way too long, and I suck at editing, so I'm going to just post what I have below and let the chips fall where they may.  A few different points:

- The more I think about Wright's "Chickens" sermon, the less offended I get.  Kamiya's Salon article put it well:

his "chickens coming home to roost" sermon, when he thundered that America's sins were being revisited upon us, he failed to make the essential distinction between saying U.S. actions were partly responsible for the attacks and saying that we deserved the attacks. At times his aggressive, almost gloating tone and delivery made it seem like that's exactly what he was saying.

And yet, I think the sermon was intended as a warning about what we do next, rather than an analysis of what had just happened.  On that level, while I would quibble with the implication that we shouldn't have even gone into Afghanistan, the larger idea of taking stock of oneself before acting rashly would have been better to heed.

- Unlike Kamiya, I don't think we were "partly responsible" for 9/11, at least not in a way that we could say was avoidable.  One could argue that we could have left Saudi Arabia, but does that really make sense given what we knew at the time?  Here's this nutbag with a small following who's been trying to kill us all over the world, and also trying to get into the U.S. to kill us here, but he's only been successful well outside of the U.S., where we're prone to attacks anyway.  I agree there's things we should do to piss fewer people off, but the causus belli of 9/11 was so far down the list as to be negligible.

- Now that 9/11 happened, however, a lot of the issues raised about our foreign policy "causing" 9/11 could very well "cause" another attack.  For example, Al Quaeda didn't seem to care about the Israel/Palestine situation before 9/11, but now mentions the Palestinians among it's grievances.  Clearly, invading Iraq is at the top of the list, as another example.  Now that people know a terrorist attack on our soil can be done, they're going to be more resillient in trying to do it again.

So when Wright says that we need to take a step back before giving in to a desire for revenge, I have to agree, not because a desire for revenge "caused" 9/11, but because it's the right thing to do.  When Sontag says that we need to consider the effects of our foreign policy with respect to terrorist acts, I have to agree, not because our foreign policy "caused" 9/11, but because the likelihood of future attempts has become too great to not figure into the calculus of future actions.

- So if I think what Wright and Sontag said has value, is useful for future action, why does it bug me that they put it in the context of what actions brought us to 9/11?  While I don't think the analogy is perfect (because the cause and effect is much clearer than with 9/11), it reminds me of groups like PETA using Mad Cow Disease to encourage people to stop eating meat.  There's merit to treating cows more humanely, but that has very little to do with feeding them offal (like with bases in Saudi Arabia, it's not something that's very high on the list when people think about abuses of cattle), and if you stop that practice, you avoid Mad Cow Disease entirely, but that's not what PETA proposes as a solution.  It's just very dishonest, and what's being done here is more viral (I don't think it's as intentional as the stuff PETA does), but it does feel like I've stepped into a bizarro world these last couple of weeks, where people who I otherwise agree with a lot accept the "we're partly responsible for 9/11" meme without question.


[ Parent ]
Let's Get Real (0.00 / 0)
Osama bin Laden was not the brains behind 9/11, and his individual, expressed motivations are not synonmous with "the causes of 9/11."  As has been pointed out already, it was the CIA itself that coined the term "blowback," and it's hardly surprising that blowback, like God, works in mysterious ways.

Your attempt to treat these matters in syllogistic fashion is admirable in intent, at one level, in light of how you're explaining yourself, but it misses the whole point of the concept of blowback--not just the long-standing critiques based on it, but the concept itself, which is not that it will take rational, syllogistically parsable forms, but that it will take us by surprise--and all the moreso because the most offensive things we have done have been kept secret.

Both Sontag and Wright were speaking in this context, and your criticism of them depends on effectively ignoring that context, via your favored forms of rationalization.

The problem was not that we had troops stationed in Saudi Arabia.  The problem was that he helped create monsters like bin Laden in the first place.  That's the real blowback we're talking about here.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Surprise, sure, but non-empirical? (0.00 / 0)
the concept itself, which is not that it will take rational, syllogistically parsable forms, but that it will take us by surprise--and all the moreso because the most offensive things we have done have been kept secret.

First off, something can take you by surprise and still be rational.  It's just a matter of not having enough information beforehand.  That doesn't mean that one can ever become surprise-proof, just that "surprise" and "rational" are not opposites.

So to say that "blowback" isn't rational is incorrect.  Unpredictable, yes, but not irrational.  (At least, the "blowback" that's irrational can't be avoided, so it's not germane to the discussion.)

Secondly, sometimes the risk of "blowback" is acceptable.  Should we not have worked with Stalin for fear of "blowback"?  In a similar fashion, enabling a Bin Laden in exchange for hastening the fall of the Soviet Union seems pretty acceptable to me.  So even the blowback that you cite ("we shouldn't be creating monsters like Bin Laden in the first place") isn't one that would necessarily be traded away in Sontagian reflection of our foreign policy, and it's clear that Sontag was referring to foreign policy that we should have avoided as a cause of 9/11.

If actions far removed from the attack can be considered causes of "blowback" then it seems the context you're using is self-fulfilling:  It's "blowback" if people you agree with say it is.  Even if none of the examples cited have a direct (or even second or third degree) connection to the event, can they still be cited because blowback is "mysterious"?

I'm certain that I'm misunderstanding your standards for what is and isn't evidence of "blowback"; you're very much a "reality based" kind of guy, so I'll just ask:  What kind of evidence is acceptable when discussing "blowback"?

In a related question:  What do you think were the causes of 9/11?  More importantly, what empirical evidence can you bring to bear to establish your argument?


[ Parent ]
Low Hanging Fruit (0.00 / 0)
There's too much to respond to here right now, so I'll just go for the low-hanging fruit.

Comparing collaborating with Stalin to fight Hitler to creating the Mujuhadeen, and thus planting the seeds for al Qaeda and the Taliban is precisely the sort of rationalistic anti-empirical thinking I was writing against.  There are just so many things wrong with this analogy that one hardly knows where to begin.

But here's the place to end: the Cold War was effective over in the mid-70s.  The neocon's greatest single accomplishment (in tandem with one stream of their forbearers) was restarting it through a very naked, transparent act of making up intelligence via "Team B," and disseminating that false intelligence via the reincarnated "Committee On The Present Danger."

The end result was a massive, terribly wasteful resurgence of military-industrial spending as our domestic manufacturing base was decimated, and the short-term empowerment of reactionary forces in the Soviet Union, which effectively precluded the sort of smooth democratic transition that Gorbachev would eventually try to pull off.  Russia has yet to recover--if it ever will--from the damage that came from this, and we will be damn lucky if we aren't hurt every bit as badly as Russia was.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I appreciate the critique, but when you get the time, please answer my question (0.00 / 0)
Or don't.  I'm asking it as a favor, not a demand.

The questions I'm referring to are these:

I'm certain that I'm misunderstanding your standards for what is and isn't evidence of "blowback"; you're very much a "reality based" kind of guy, so I'll just ask:  What kind of evidence is acceptable when discussing "blowback"?

In a related question:  What do you think were the causes of 9/11?  More importantly, what empirical evidence can you bring to bear to establish your argument?



[ Parent ]
The timing of October 2001 (4.00 / 1)
You might have a point that Wright had bad timing in this case. On the other hand I remember October 2001 pretty well and what I remember is an outpouring of revenge bloodlust parading under cover of trite patriotic ditties and badly photoshopped anti-Muslim gags. The job of a pastor is to preach understanding and dignity for all, and so Wright's timing was good. In fact it was courageous of him to stand against the raging tide of bloodlust revenge that was flooding the nation in October 2001.

[ Parent ]
Just Another Premature Anti-Racist (0.00 / 0)
The nerve!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
See the comment immediately below n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
We must run in different circles, then (0.00 / 0)
Two things really stuck out in my mind in October 2001:

- The very first Boondocks that was written after 9/11 essentially said that we were going to devolve into racism and jingoism before anyone had a chance to do or say anything.

I couldn't find the actual strip, but do a search on "9/11" on this New Yorker piece from 2004.  I recall that the Ashcroft "Turban Surveilance Act" was one of the earlier ones as well.

- I ran into a HS classmate of mine, who also lives here in Chicago, right after 9/11, and he was on his way to organize a protest against us going into Afghanistan.

So what I saw at the time was an immediate call to arms by the left, with no opportunity granted to this Administration to do things right.  Would it have made a difference if the response hadn't been as cynical?  Probably not, but we're the "reality based" folks, right?  And doesn't that mean that, in reality, you let people speak before you judge them?

Regarding Wright, I think I've come around to being closer with your sentiment in this comment than before:  I agree that the main thrust of Wright's sermon was to warn us against the impulse to take revenge.


[ Parent ]
Dude STOLE The Presidency (0.00 / 0)
Illegitimiate Presidents don't get the benefit of anything.

It's like, what can he possibly do for an encore?  It's just got to be really, really, really bad.  There is no alternative.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
How did you know he stole it before the NORC recount? (0.00 / 0)
The NORC results came after 9/11.

People really need to stop tying themselves to the "premature anti-fascist" meme.  Sometimes a premature judgement really is premature, even if it turns out later that the judgement happened to be correct.


[ Parent ]
Read Jews For Buchanan (0.00 / 0)
I know because I watched him steal it in plain sight.  He stole it more ways than Carter has little liver pills.  The NORC recount accepted as its baseline an already corrupted starting point.  Two clear examples of large vote totals it ignored: (1) The illegitimate felon purge, worth tens of thousands of votes. (2) The Palm Beach "Butterfly Ballot," worth at least 18K votes.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
You're Twisting All Over The Place To Miss The Point (0.00 / 0)
The use of 9/11 to say "I told you so" by people as far ranging as Wright and Sontag on one side, and Fallwell and Robertson on another is disgusting all around, since none of the motivations given were what the actual terrorists expressed.  We should no more accept projections from the left on the motivations for 9/11 than we accept projections of Saddam Hussein's involvement in it from the Bush Administration, or projections of our "sinful ways" by Fallwell, et al.

What I find disgusting is the mindless, knee-jerk attempt to equate Wright and Sontag with Fallwell and Robertson. In point of fact, NONE of the four mentioned argued that the terrorists acted on the basis of any specific motivations.  They were arguing causes, not motivations, and if you don't understand the difference between these two sorts of arguments, then I suggest you go bone up on them before continuing your participation here.

Once you realize that it's a disagreement over causes, not motivations, the false equivilence argument becomes obviously absurd, since Wright and Sontage are making empirical arguments which can be rationally debated, while Fallwell and Robertson are not.  You may object to those arguments, and I and others may dispute you.  But nothing remotely similar is possible with Fallwell and Robertson, except to note, with Tom Paine, that "Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
To me, and this is what I was getting at elsewhere (4.00 / 1)
this is foregone conclusin to be "offended" masqerading as discussion. Frankly- I have to be honest. One of the reasons I now lean Obama although not by much is that I feel like this is a Sista Soulja moment twice removed. First, the deleiberate obfuscation of what has been said such that people call it offensive. Second, the twice removed is the fact that its not even words attributble to Obama's positions, but instead guilt by association. There is something fundamentally messed up by Democrats, supposedly sharing our values, using this in such a way. I am hard pressed to see the difference as I 've said between the right and left on this. I am not saying that people can't disagree with some of Wrights theories- some fo them were out there, but to call it offensive just becdause he's over the top seems at best  stretch and more likely spin to obtain political advantage.

[ Parent ]
My point is that they're all projections (0.00 / 0)
(This is a bit scattershot, but I have to get back to work, so it will have to do)

Paul,

Next time you feel the impulse to insult me, please reread what I wrote; I do the same with what you write and usually discover that there's more to what you're saying than I originally thought.

The section you're quoting was really an afterthought to the rest of the comment.  It reflects what I see as a pattern in the discussion of 9/11:  Polemecists project what they want to on 9/11 to convince people to change our country's actions:

Wright:  Violence begets violence, as we just saw, so we better stop supporting violence around the world.

Sontag:  Our foreign policy caused this reaction, so we better change our foreign policy to make this type of thing less likely to happen

Neocons:  Islamic Fascism is on the rise, so we better ramp up the war machine to fight WW II, Part Two:  This Time They Have Crescents -- But Don't Eat Them!

Yossi Klein Halevi:  Now you know how it feels -- see, they really are all a bunch of dirty Arabs!

Fallwell/Robertson:  Teh Gay!  Teh Gay!

It's kind of funny you accuse me of a knee-jerk reaction, because what I was trying to say is that all of the comments from the people above were knee-jerk reactions.  I see what you're saying:  there's no way that Fallwell/Robertson's argument can be disproved, so as an argument it shouldn't be compared with the others.  From the perspective of what each of these people wanted to convey about their world views, however, I think they can be compared, because they're all twisting what actually happened to support their world view.

(To be fair to Wright, his analysis was in the context of asking what we do going forward; a warning not to continue the cycle of violence.  In a way, his sermon is the opposite of how I view Marx:  it was wrong historically, but right prophetically)

The best that can be said about Sontag and Wright over the others I've listed above is that their prescriptions for what to do going forward were salient:  Even if our military actions weren't a direct cause of 9/11, people that we've aggrieved around the world will rally to it and to Al Quaeda, and Al Quaeda will take on those same grievances and fly them under its banner, so one way to try and prevent another 9/11 is to reduce the number of grievances.

As far as arguing the causes go (which was the crux of my original comment), it sounds like you want to use the word "cause" in a very diffuse way, outside of its common usage.  Generally, when one says "X caused Y to happen", or "Z caused 9/11", it's assumed that it's a direct cause, or at least a strong connection.  In the specific case of 9/11, the cause of it from our part was being in Saudi Arabia, which offended Bin Laden's Sky Daddy.  The closest any of the above people come to the truth would be Sontag, in that it was a piece of our foreign policy that caused the irritation, but it's clear that that wasn't the kind of foreign policy she was talking about (i.e., she was making a connection to the parts of our foreign policy were we bomb people from planes).

PS:  My apologies for taking so long to respond, but I didn't have time.  On the other hand, it did give me time to reflect on the arguments presented here, which I appreciate, even when I strongly disagree.


[ Parent ]
Of Course He Could Have Handled It Differently (0.00 / 0)
I understand what you're saying, and I understood it even before I wrote this piece.  But Obama's problems--particularly his self-created ones--are not my primary concern here.  Keepin it real is.

Obama certainly could have handled it differently, though he himself narrowed his options in advance by running a "post-racial," "post-partisan," "Post Toasties" campaign.

For one thing, he didn't have to answer those he was defending himself from.  He could have aggressively marginalized them.  That's not something I would expect him to do, of course.  In fact, I would have been genuinely shocked if he'd done that.  He only does that to people like me, who groove out on 1970s-style anti-military love-ins.

He could have said that he disagreed with certain specific things Wright said--about HIV/AIDs, for example.  But instead he chose to mischaracterize Wright in terms that are themselves simply obfuscatory and wrong.

In doing so, he made himself part of the problem. He signed onto the marginalization of his own community, just like Mel Reeves said.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I see your point (0.00 / 0)
but I still don't see how he could have "aggressively marginalized them".  He certainly could have tried to do that; he almost certainly would have failed if he had.  Since this is mostly a media-driven story and since we clearly don't control the media, there's no way he could have succeeded in marginalizing the race-obsessed, any more than we can control how much Teflon they coat John McCain with.

Now if you just see yourself as doing a job of providing a left-of-Obama pole that a liberal centrist like Obama can occasionally point at so as to say that he's NOT actually the most extreme thing out there, that's fine, and that's a perfectly honorable thing for a left to do, and maybe even a necessary one.  But if that's the game, then I suppose you (and me, too, Paul) who "groove out on 1970's style anti-military love-ins" need to get used to it.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]
He! He! He! (0.00 / 0)
Those 1970s style anti-military love-ins were a whole lot groovier than Obama will ever know!

But, seriously, I really do think Obama could have marginalized those who are beyond reason--even though many in the media mindlessly parrot them.  The key to doing this is to not make the media parrots think he's talking about them.  And perhaps the best way to lay this out is in a whole separate post.

One thing he could have done, though, would have been to talk about Michael Dukakis, Lee Atwater and Willie Horton.  It really helps that Lee Atwater is dead, and that he repented on his death bed.  So he can be both the bad guy, and the supporting GOP witness both at the same time, and we don't have to worry about him turning around and doing yet another moral flip-flop on us.

Anyway, Obama would start off talking about that, and how the media got sucked into it.  And he could say that this was a situation that where everyone ended up compromised, everyone ended up cheapened and demeaned. And the memebers of the media today can even look back at the media 20 years ago, and shake their heads, because it's almost entirely a different cast of characters.  So there's some daylight (however illusory) to work with there.  So, anyway, that's how he might go about creating some difference and distinction, so that he could go after the "Lee Atwaters of today" and the challenge for the "media of today" to avoid getting sucked in.

Then he could say, "But it's also the reponsibility of Democrats to respond with integrity, the media expects to hear our side from us, and if we haven't honsetly worked through what we stand for, and why, then we share the responsibility, when media ends up going somewhere that they maybe don't like to go, but somehow feel they have to go."

Anyway, that's just an off-the-top-of-my-head riff.

But the point is, you have to want to find this sort of approach, in order to work hard to find a way to make it work.  And I simply don't think that Obama has that sort of desire in the first place.  So first I had to write about that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
One last thing before I leave this (0.00 / 0)
I agree he might have done what you're suggesting - that is a plausible approach he might have taken and gotten away with it.  However, George Lakoff, in his new post here, points out that he DID sorta take on the media a bit in the speech, not one of its most memorable moments, perhaps, but - he specifically mention the OJ coverage.  This is admittedly a less bold approach than the one you're advocating, but it's definitely in the same direction.  But yes, Obama plays it closer to the vest than you do, for good or for ill.

sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]
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