A Hidden McCain Advantage?

by: Chris Bowers

Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 15:40


It is with growing concern that I have been following the Rasmussen daily tracking poll over the past two weeks. Starting on March 15th, a survey that included interviews from March 11-14, John McCain broke out of a tight contest and took a 47%-42% lead over Barack Obama. From that day forward, McCain's lead has been a minimum of 6% over Obama, a lead that he replicates over Hillary Clinton and which has also been reflected in Rasmussen statewide polls.

Now, while Rasmussen was terribly wrong in 2000, and while it is headed by a Republican, its track record in both 2004 and 2006 was pretty solid. Also, while the other seven Obama vs. McCain non-tracking polls conducted entirely since March 11th show Obama ahead by an average of 1.3%, there is an important difference between Rasmussen and those seven polls. Specifically, Rasmussen is an automated, IVR style poll that does not use live interviewers, while the other seven non-tracking polls all utilize the more traditional, live-interview survey methodology. As such, I am worried that we are seeing a "Bradley effect" or "Wilder effect" between the IVR polls, and the live-interview polls. Perhaps people are telling an automated survey something that they would not tell a real life person.

Is there a hidden McCain advantage, based on a Bradley effect, where he is actually ahead by 5-8%? It is one possibility, and I find it quite worrying. It is also entirely possible that Rasmussen simply is wrong, given that their national polls have almost always been out of step with other national polls this year. For example, on the even of Super Tuesday, Rasmussen showed Mitt Romney tied with John McCain nationally, although the actual voting bore out very difficult results. It might also be possible that Rasmussen is using far too tight of a "likely voter" screen, especially given that the general election is so far away and that the Democratic campaign in 2008 has consistently demonstrated an ability to bring out some less than likely voters.

It is very, very difficult for me to believe that John McCain can win this election, given the enormous structural advantages Democrats have this year (fundraising, partisan self-identification, the general mood for change). My gut tells me that once Obama emerges as the presumptive nominee in the minds of the electorate, that he will gradually start to pull away from McCain and win comfortably. However, another part of me also worries that what Matthew Yglesias wrote today is true, and that in terms of electability, we were always deluding ourselves that either a woman or an African-American were ever really all that "electable" nationwide:

I heard a liberal Obama skeptic remark a couple of months ago that it would be a strange day in America when the correct answer to the question "who's the most electable" was "the black guy." I think that's right, and it's a reminder that though the cliché is to say that Democrats are torn between two very strong candidates, in some ways we're torn between two very weak ones.(...)

Given the extreme strong underlying pro-Democrat fundamentals, it's very hard for me to imagine how a "generic Democratic white dude" like Chris Dodd or John Edwards or, indeed, John Kerry would lose in this environment.

I don't know how likely it is, but the Rasmussen poll suggest that it is indeed possible that Obama does not hold a small lead over McCain, and instead actually faces a decently sized, 5-8% deficit at this point in the campaign. Might a live-interview "Bradley effect" be inflating Obama's (and Clinton's) numbers outside of IVR polls? Might Obama and Clinton always have been further behind McCain than live-interview polls would suggest? It is certainly a possibility, and a worrying one to consider.

Chris Bowers :: A Hidden McCain Advantage?

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Survey USA also uses IVR (4.00 / 1)
and their state-by-state matchup data has been pretty favorable in the big picture.  I agree that Dems need to be worried and that the possibility of a landslide that some envisioned with Obama now seems remote, but I think we are still in good shape.

This is a little dated by now (it used the first wave of 50 state SUSA data) but for those of you interested, a guy at Harvard did some more in depth statistical analysis on those results and estimated an 88% chance of an Obama win, solely based on that data.  Obviously much can change or may have changed in the last few weeks and this polling data is only worth so much, but that is a pretty high and comforting figure for what its worth.

You can see the description of what he did, laden with much stats speak, at the following url.  In simple terms, he just took the results for each state, made some assumptions in order to calculate probability distributions of outcomes for each state based on that data, and then ran simulations based on those distributions to see the likelihood of Obama getting over 270 EV.

http://www.iq.harvard.edu/blog...

John McCain: Health insurance for low income children represents an "unfunded liability."


Pollster.com - Rasmussen uses doubtful party ID rates to weight results (0.00 / 0)
Fuzzy:

Your point is echoed in a very pertinent discussion at Pollster.com.  The link is
http://www.pollster.com/blogs/...

Rasmussen itself reports that its poll reports are weighted for a party ID distribution that gives the Democrats a slight edge, but an edge much lower than the edge reported by Pew Research Center and other pollsters.  This evidence suggests   that Rasmussen (intentionally or due to inertia) is distorting its poll results by using seriously flawed party ID statistics to "correct" the numbers it actually collects. Rasmussen's current reported weights are based on +5.6% edge for the Democrats, whereas Pew reports +9% for the Democrats.  I think this translates to a difference of 6.8% (difference of 3.4% higher for Rs and 3.4% lower for Ds = 6.8%) in the reported poll results.

At the end of the linked thread there are also comments indicating that any "likely voter" models that are in use this year are totally off because Obama's candidacy has transformed the turnout statistics for the 18-29 age group.  


[ Parent ]
Could we not call it the "Bradley effect"? (4.00 / 1)
Lets call it what it is, racism.  Giving it a polite label only makes it more likely.  Any time we see this kind of discrepancy we need to point out the racism and hopefully shame those who can be shamed into more productive actions.

I think there's a distinction (0.00 / 0)
You know, one of the problems with discussions about race in this country is the lack of subtlety with which it's engaged. When some people say "racist!" certain people think that implies explicit KKK-supporting racism, when what is really meant is a more subtle prejudice. Usually, the prejudice is unconscious. But the person at the receiving end of the epithet doesn't see themselves as being racist, and calling them "racist" just has the effect of polarization of the discussion about race - because if they're just gonna be called racist when they know in their hearts that they aren't (though they might, in a sense, be wrong), then why should they engage? I think the Bradley effect is such a subtle form of prejudice that it can probably be accounted for by these sorts of unconscious processes. So, though I see where you're coming from - the BE does reflect a certain form of racism - it's not helpful, nor particularly accurate, to simply call it "racism."

Ah yes! Subtle debate about race! Obama's speech has me in the mood.


[ Parent ]
That is why I say call it racism (0.00 / 0)
We all practice racism, whether black white or other and to blacks whites and others, that is different than being racist.  I think the saying deplore the action not the actor is a paraphrasing of the idea I want to convey.  I don't claim to know when our acts of racism make us racist, I suspect it lies much in the intent and that underscores my point.  It is those without intent that can be induced to change their behavior especially when the label for there actions is not prettied up.  Now it is not a given whether our public discourse can handle such distinctions, but they exist.

[ Parent ]
it's copacetic, blog friend! (0.00 / 0)
I remember Bill Clinton in 2000 saying that polls that showed an early Bush lead over Gore in the double digits didn't mean anything, and the polls generally didn't mean anything until at least Labor Day. He was right - the polls closed to rough parity after the conventions and stayed that way the rest of the campaign, pretty much. And that point should be all the more true when we don't even have a nominee yet. I really really really wouldn't worry about this head-to-head number at this point.

As for the Bradley effect concern: Obama certainly hasn't underperformed polling in the Democratic primaries. So presumably the only issue is whether a Bradley effect applies to Republican and independent voters. But haven't way more independents voted for Obama than Clinton? And why would a Republican lie to a pollster about supporting the Republican candidate? I don't see it.


I think it's something else (4.00 / 1)
    I don't doubt that the McCain edge is real, but I'll bet a  good chunk of it comes from having one of the Democratic candidates for president repeatedly praising him to the skies, especially in comparison with the other Democrat in the race. McCain is getting off scot-free in the media for gaffe after gaffe -- in part because only one of the Democrats is calling him on them, and the media tends to ignore said Democrat on those occasions. And, of course, the media is about as critical of John McCain as a thirteen-year-old girl is of her first boyfriend.

  Once the nomination situation is resolved, I trust that the one Democrat who actually sees John McCain as a serious political opponent, and not as a "respected friend", will have a wider national forum in which to disseminate criticism of McCain -- and the polls should move accordingly.  

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


Not just one of the candidates--her former POTUS husband also (0.00 / 0)
[ Parent ]
Polls (0.00 / 0)
To be honest I rarely will stand still long enough to take a poll from a human, and a machine has no chance.

On the other hand it is still to early to be worrying about that too much IMHO, since we have yet to really turn our attention on McBush, and there are going to be a lot of developements in events between now and then, some of which could radically flip the polls from any previous week.


Be patient (4.00 / 1)
If we can settle on our candidate in 3-5 weeks, the Dem machine, suchg as it is, can start to work on McCain.  He is extremely vulnerable, despite the good will he has built up with the press.  His message can be summed up as endless war, no government help with the economy and taxes only for the middle class.  Plus he doesn't represent change.  Obama has been wounded by Hillary and has been fighting a two-front war.  When he can take Mccain head on, and has a bunch of surrogates, unions, 527s and downticket candidates in his corner, things will trun around.

This post must mean you have stopped worrying about a brokered convention.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


I agree (0.00 / 0)
Like I said in the comment below, I think Dean is already laying out a devastating argument: "McCain is basically four more years of Bush."  Replay the convention speech for Bush along with some footage of the Bush's greatest hits over the last eight years in a couple of campaign ads, that's your election.  Its really almost too easy.  Obama probably won't even need all the money he'll raise: maybe he could send it to down ticket races.

The Politics of Bruno S.


[ Parent ]
I second Survey USA (0.00 / 0)
Survey USA has by far the best record thus far this primary season, and it has had Obama doing consistently well in lots of important states (like the purple Iowa and the newly blue Virginia). Survey USA is IVR and has been dead on. So let's choose the right IVR before we worry about general election problems.

Personally, I'm not too concerned (0.00 / 0)
I don't think we've ever conclusively proven any sort of Wilder effect took place in NH.  Jay Coast at RCP I thought gave a great explanation of why it was not the case.  And besides, even if there was a slight wilder effect, I would mainly chulk that up to a more generalized uneasiness in the Democratic electorate to choose someone so new to them over a couple of legendary politicians like the Clintons.  

I definitely trust people like Gallup, SUSA the most anyway.

But I definitely think once Clinton is gone, Obama should cruise to something like a 2-3 point victory: there will not be any huge mandates in an open election in such a polarized time period as now.  The conservatives have their knives out and they will do their work with their typical precision and dispatch.  

They will still lose though.  Just today, I was impressed by how devastating I found a quote by Dean on McCain: "this would basically mean four more years of Bush."  Whatever the truth to that statement, it is extremely potent.  If they don't find some way to get his numbers back up above at least 40%, I just can't picture McCain pulling it out against a politician like Obama, who I think we can now conclusively say is the most talented we've seen in the party since Clinton.  


The Politics of Bruno S.


It is indeed a potent statement (0.00 / 0)
 
this would basically mean four more years of Bush."

But it'll only be effective if we nominate the one candidate who will actually make it a part of the campaign message.

And that would be the candidate who's refrained from praising him so far.  

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


[ Parent ]
I agree--its going to be hard for the Clinton campaign to go to work (0.00 / 0)
on McCain if the press and McCain can pull out 5 separate statements by both Bill and Hillary praising him as a "moderate" (i.e. not like Bush) and as competent on foreign policy (i.e. not like Bush).

The Politics of Bruno S.


[ Parent ]
I hope the supers understand this (0.00 / 0)

 A Clinton candidacy would literally force the Democrats to campaign with one hand tied behind their backs.  

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn

[ Parent ]
Poll bias? (0.00 / 0)
While polls have some value, we've seen increasingly that they can fail us when the rubber hits the road.  I suspect that is in part due to the nature of those who write the polls.  Partisan polls are written to obtain a desired result.  In the Rasmussen poll, is it likely that the questions were structured to obtain the eventual result?  I would like to know what the questions were and how they relate to the questions in other polls with different results.

In general, when I see an out-lier from the other polls, I tend to think it is the out-lier that is wrong.  On the other hand, it is obvious that there are many who are not willing to say they will not vote for someone who is black or a woman.  Perhaps is is time someone conducted a poll stating the obvious, is the American public willing to elect a black man or a woman as President?


Cue the Al Gore fanaticals (0.00 / 0)
asdf

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

If Obama loses to McCain... (4.00 / 3)
Then Jeremiah Wright will have been completely vindicated.  If McCain wins without some real, major Obama scandal it will be because we are in a country with a racist majority.

I don't think it will happen.  I think most of the racists already have a party that caters to them and wouldn't have voted anything other than GOP.  I know there are some racists Democrats, but I think they are more than counterbalanced by Independents who are motivated more by change than by race.


This statement is total b.s. (0.00 / 0)
and tells me a great deal about your elitist attitude towards the average U.S. working family.

If McCain wins without some real, major Obama scandal it will be because we are in a country with a racist majority
.  

Clinton in '08. Or give Carter a 2nd term. Vote for Obama!

[ Parent ]
This is a stupid comment and makes no sense whatsoever (0.00 / 0)
[ Parent ]
Obama's Wright problem (0.00 / 0)
isn't about racism.  It's about patriotism.  The "God Damn America" clips combined with Michelle Obama's "pride" statement are going to make very powerful ads.  The Obama campaign should have taken care of this a year ago. They knew it was a problem.  The Republicans in my family--who aren't racist--are sick of Bushism but won't vote for Obama.

[ Parent ]
I'm sure they won't--their Republicans (0.00 / 0)
I'm sorry but I really wish the HRC people would give us a break on the wright BS.  At this point, its only them and talk radio who actually think the Wright issue is that big a deal.  No one who was going to end up voting for Obama seriously believes he agrees with those statements, and his handling of the situation has been brillant.  Moreover, the radicalism of the Black community was always going to be something the first AA president was eventually going to have to deal with.  This gets it out early, and as today's polls show, its effects are more or less negligible.  The only people I have talked to who care about this are the racists I know who weren't going to vote democratic anyway.

Get over it, that dog won't hunt.

Obama's going to be the nominee.  Accept it or move over to redstate and support McBush.

The Politics of Bruno S.


[ Parent ]
who knows? (0.00 / 0)
But I will say that when I follow politics closely, a few poor polls with a bad news story, and it's easy to talk myself into not just foreseeing a disaster, but feeling it.  A lot of Obama people felt bad in October, for example.

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.

I dunno. (0.00 / 0)
   Rasmussen is the only pollster to show McCain beating Obama and Clinton by a significant margin.  The Pew poll saw Obama at 50 against McCain.  I'm not much of a believer in the Wilder effect.

John McCain lets lobbyists shape his economic policy

too early to get worried about general election polls (0.00 / 0)
Yes there is a Bradley effect. McCain will win Southern states by larger margins than the polls show. Obama won't be within 15 points in Texas for instance despite the seeming closeness of current general election polls. But so what? He doesn't need those states and for every former Confederate state he loses by 25% he'll win a purple state like Iowa or Colorado due to the recession, the Iraq occupation, and the fact that his opponent is an old, angry crazy person. See also: President Dukakis and any number of other candidates who had a lead at this point in the election cycle in previous years.

Obama is NOT Bradley or Wilder (4.00 / 2)
He is of far higher talent level, surpassing Bill Clinton, IMO.

This is also 2008, and while racism is still here, this is not 1980 or even 1992.    


No problem: voter registration (4.00 / 1)
I honestly believe that once Obama's the nominee, we can launch the biggest voter registration drive in recent history, and probably add a hidden 5-10% to Obama's totals that way.

I'd like to call it "Project Vote: 50 states. 1000 cities."


Why doesn't somebody get scientific (0.00 / 0)
and conduct two polls?  Using controls keep everything the same but just have one be conducted Live Person and the other automated and see what happens.

Advantages (0.00 / 0)

I give it to you, you've got balls raising the subject. I myself am allways afraid to raise the subject directly: Nobody likes to be called a racist.

The is a real risk of the republican winning the white house and this due to the combination to TWO advantages:
1) Hidden McCain Advantage - In general
That's what the post is about

2) Not so Hidden Obama Advantage - In primary
a little math explains why Obama is doing so well. AA comunity is 15% of the population and since they pretty much all vote democrat, 30% of the democratic party: One third, on average.
He has demonstrated that he gets pretty much all of it, whatever he does. So all he need to to do some regular campaining, with a fairly generic message, and on average he allways wins.

Number #2 opens up a credible possibility of having the first AA president.
Number #1+2 however opens up a credible possibility of having a republican president at a time where republican ideas are at their lowest.

Interesting isn't it?



What if we doubled AA turnout? (0.00 / 0)
Let's say we doubled the AA turnout for the general, and assume that roughly 50% turn out in general.  That could mean up to a 7.5% bump for Obama just via higher turnout among AA voters.  (And you know there's going to be an unprecedented drive to make this happen if Obama's the nominee.)

[ Parent ]
Districting matters: (0.00 / 0)

The sad truth is that with the republican redistricting, the turnout among AA doesn't have a great effect.

But hey, I'm not saying that Obama doesn't have shot as it is.


[ Parent ]
You mean for congressional races, right? (0.00 / 0)
Because most states do winner-takes-all for the general (for the electoral college)...

[ Parent ]
I believe you are right (0.00 / 0)
I stand corrected

[ Parent ]
DNC focus group provides plenty of poll busters (0.00 / 0)
Great job, Chris! (0.00 / 0)
I enjoyed the debate between Chis, the confident, and Chris, the cautious. Thank you.

Clinton in '08. Or give Carter a 2nd term. Vote for Obama!

Yes, there are lots of racists in America (4.00 / 1)
Yes, there are Democratic voters who will vote for McCain for racist reasons and not be able to admit that to themselves.

This election must be won in spite of racism, and will be a victory over racism.

Because shame over prejudiced feelings, things one doesn't say in public, is known to influence how people respond to polls, I think that our strategy generally should be to downgrade the importance of polls in how we think of this election.

It will come down to turnout, voter registration, organizing, and the strength of ideas.  If we spend all our time pondering polls, we are playing to our own disadvantage.

And can we please take a minute to remember the South Carolina primary and remind ourselves how unhelpful polls have been thus far?  Let's play to our strengths, and not hand-wring over other people's racism.


Clinton (4.00 / 1)
The same poll has McCain beating Clinton by 8%, meaning Rasmussen has about a 7.5% bias over the average in both match-ups.  If it a result of automated polling, it would seem the racist and sexist elements are exactly the same.  That seems doubtful to me.

I highly doubt it (0.00 / 0)
If there was a big Bradley effect, we'd have seen it borne out during the primaries.  Some thought that the NH result was an example of this.  But as we've seen since then, Obama is MUCH more likely to outperform his polling numbers than Hillary.  When Edwards was still in the race, in South Carolina, Obama once again outperformed.

Now there is a real possibility that there are more racist voters in a general election...actually, check that, it is undeniable that there are more racists in a general election.  But I don't think they would have any hesitation telling the pollster they are voting for McCain if that is their true desire.

Any underperformance by Obama in election results will probably be chalked up to the Bradley effect, but as we've seen in this primary it has not been apparent. In fact, I think it has been vastly outweighed by the "Obama effect", in which he energizes more voters than these pollsters except, thus throwing their models out the door.


General vs Primary (0.00 / 0)
While I don't think we have much evidence of the 'Bradly Effect' based on this poll, as I stated above, I don't think you can use the primary results as evidence.  For one, if there is an effect it is apparently the same for both Obama and Clinton, so the two would cancel out in the primary.  But even more importantly, the people voting in the general is twice the number of people voting in the primary (at least) and includes most of those we suspect would fall prey to the 'Bradly Effect'.  You just can't use one as evidence for the other.

[ Parent ]
This could also be "the opportunity" (0.00 / 0)
". . .that in terms of electability, we were always deluding ourselves that either a woman or an African-American were ever really all that "electable" nationwide"

But if this is a sea-change then there can't be any better opportunity to break some entrenched barriers than this election.  Stodgy, Iraq war cheerleader, McCain is the perfect aging out of touch candidate to run against.  The country has had a decade of "conservative" government and now have first hand experience of how foolish it is to expect people who hate government to run it efficiently.  If Obama is the Democratic nominee, he has proven that he can start out behind and close the gap in a short period of time.  We should expect it to be exceedingly difficult to break through the structural prejudices that still exist in our country but if we are so ashamed of our progressive values that we are "afraid" to nominate a black or woman because "they" can't win then we suck at being agents of change.  Nobody expects the brain dead zombies in the Republican Party to voluntarily walk away from power.  We have to go to the people and win it.  Playing it safe because you are worried about "winning and losing" is like the prevent defense in football.  It never works.  Be bold and change society for the better.


generic white dude (0.00 / 0)
Of course, that 'generic white dude' John Edwards was also the most progressive of the three and would have really moved this country to the left like a new FDR. But, unfortunately progressives weren't so concerned about that and had other priorities.

I liked him enough... (0.00 / 0)
and his policies were the most progressive of the "big three" (but definitely not compared to Kucinich).

The thing was, his track record was most definitely not the most progressive, and that's something I never was able to reconcile.


[ Parent ]
sorry, but, well, "duh" (0.00 / 0)


Not buying it (0.00 / 0)
Shouldn't McCain have an even bigger advantage with Obama and Clinton beating each other up.  I know there has been a lot of talk about some dems not voting for the other candidate, but seriously are women really going to vote for McCain or are upscale whites?  One would think that if McCain was a real strong candidate that he would be up double digits on either dem, but he is not.  Iraq is going to be back on the map (unfortunately for our troups and their families), the economy isn't going to correct itself by November, by Labor Day McCain will be down 5 or 10.  There are just too many things that would have to happen to make McCain an acceptable President.  

If Dodd or John Edwards had been such great candidates.. (0.00 / 0)
they would have won the primary.

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