Back To Residual Forces

by: Chris Bowers

Fri Apr 04, 2008 at 11:50


In a sign of how seriously the Obama campaign is taking Pennsylvania, last night at my ward endorsement meeting, the Obama campaign actually sent three surrogates to speak to, and take questions from, the committee people. One of those surrogates was iMark Alexander, the national policy director! And this is just one of 66 wards in Philadelphia, which itself only represents 23-25% of the statewide primary electorate in the state. Despite my large platform, I could not pass up the chance to ask a question about residual forces in Iraq to the national policy director.

The answer was pretty much as expected. There will be residual troops, carrying out a variety of possible missions: protecting the embassy, participating in an international peacekeeping force, conducting counter-terrorism, and training Iraqi troops. All of those missions, except embassy protection, were listed as possible missions, not definite ones. No estimate on troop levels were provided. Basically, it was all of the same answers I kept receiving from campaigns back in 2007, and which eventually led to the following television commercial:


I actually wrote that ad, but since it had limited visibility, and since I have a beard now, it is possible that Mark Alexander did not recognize me. The ad was a culmination of months of research, strategizing and placing questions to campaigns, after which I concluded that Biden, Clinton, Dodd, and Obama were all proposing Iraq residual force plans that would leave around 60,000 troops in Iraq. The residual forces campaign eventually became the first question in a late September debate, and even ended up on Jay Leno.

Unfortunately, it appears that nothing has changed over the past six months:

A key adviser to Senator Obama's campaign is recommending in a confidential paper that America keep between 60,000 and 80,000 troops in Iraq as of late 2010, a plan at odds with the public pledge of the Illinois senator to withdraw combat forces from Iraq within 16 months of taking office.

The paper, obtained by The New York Sun, was written by Colin Kahl for the center-left Center for a New American Security. In "Stay on Success: A Policy of Conditional Engagement," Mr. Kahl writes that through negotiations with the Iraqi government "the U.S. should aim to transition to a sustainable over-watch posture (of perhaps 60,000-80,000 forces) by the end of 2010 (although the specific timelines should be the byproduct of negotiations and conditions on the ground)."

This is not surprising at all, given that Kahl wrote the paper for the Center for a New American Security (which is not "center-left"). That was the think tank that finally allowed us to put a solid figure on the size of residual forces back in September. Second, it has been clear for literally a year now that both Obama and Clinton (and Biden and Dodd) were proposing residual forces in Iraq of this size. This is publicly available information, and it has been around for some time. While both Kahl and the Obama campaign deny that the plan represents the position of the Obama campaign, the fact is that the answer I received last night on residual forces, just like the answers I had been receiving on residual forces during 2007, is exactly the same as the Center for a New American Security plan. It is exactly the same list of troop missions, only without the estimate on the number of troops.

This isn't something that the Clinton campaign should crow about, because the 60,000-troop plan is also exactly the same as their residual force plan. If anything, unless their proposals have changed, the Clinton campaign's plan is worse, since their residual force missions are listed as definite rather than as possible, and also listed as happening in Iraq, instead of some possibly happening in a neighboring country. The simple fact is that once Edwards dropped out, there was no longer any meaningful difference between the remaining Democratic candidates on residual forces. As such, residual did not play a role in determining who I would support in the primary.

It is increasingly clear that, even in a Democratic administration, in order to reduce the size of, or do away with entirely, residual forces in Iraq, several things will have to happen. First, it will be important for a no residual force supporter, such as Bill Richardson, to hold either Secretary of State or Secretary of Defense. Second, it will require congressional leadership, such as that found in the Responsible Plan for Iraq, to pass legislation requiring even a Democratic President to reduce the size of, or do away with entirely, residual forces in Iraq. Third, it will require continuing pressure of Democrats, progressives and anti-war activists who will support the nominee this year to influence and hold the new President accountable on completing withdrawal from Iraq. The simple, and depressing, fact is that we will not end our military participation in the war in Iraq just by winning a big trifecta in the 2008 elections. In order to build a truly progressive governing majority in this and other areas, we will have to keep fighting long afterwards. To put it one way, progressives will need our own residual troops in a Democratic administration.

Chris Bowers :: Back To Residual Forces

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Congress (4.00 / 2)
I think it's going to be up to congress, Chris. And that's not entirely a bad thing. There's no meaningful way that any president can play "Commander in Chief" for an occupation. I don't know if we'll win the debate or not, but this is precisely the reason why we're not supposed to have an imperial president...

Me | My Work | Future Majority

This is one of those all too common moments (4.00 / 1)
when the right thing to do, and the popular thing to do, are the same, and yet the Democrats still aren't sure what to do.  The new Democracy Corps memo on national security (http://www.democracycorps.com/wp-content/files/nationalsecuritymemo040308.pdf) shows that this can be an area for strength for the Democrats, and the Plan deals with the weaknesses identified in the memo.     Vague words about timelines and such that litter the campaign websites for our leadership-challenged candidates, like Mark Warner and Jeanne Shaheen, won't do the trick. These people need to be pushed to take a stand.

Support a Pennsylvania Progressive for Governor - Joe Hoeffel

There are no antiwar (0.00 / 0)
candidates for President left.

Clinton and Obama keep the war going, but few will complain.  If there were a draft, Obama's college student supporters would be screaming, but someone else will die in his residual force.  

Thanks for at least caring enough to bring this up.  It won't matter. though, because its' okay to leave 80,000 two years later if Barack Obama says so.  


[ Parent ]
It's sad that we don't get more honesty on this from campaigns (4.00 / 1)
Back when I was rooting for Richardson, I was talking with a Clinton supporter who gave the war as one of her top issues.  I asked her what Clinton's plan for Iraq was - the supporter didn't know.  I told her her plan was to leave 60,000 troops.  The supporter was surprised.

Voters just don't demand the kind of candor that they should.  Or else Obama would be in trouble over this.

What can progressives do to actually convince our less-engaged friends to give a flying fuck about this sort of thing?


It doesn't matter if Richardson is there (4.00 / 2)
The policy will be the President's policy.  So even if Richardson is at State or Defense he will not carry out his policy.....but the president's policy.

Excuse me if I am bit annoyed as I kept saying that they had the same policy all along.  But the one who was criticized was Clinton, not Obama.  Obama...was indefinite about the one item that would draw attention...the number...and so as usual his blank slate quality once more protected him from scrutiny and criticism.  Clinton was honest.  I think you will find that this will happen over and over.  



"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


Progressives not criticizing Obama, (4.00 / 1)
and instead backing him with big majorities despite his Iraq policy going forward, made the long-term 'residual forces' occupation of Iraq the policy 'progressives' (de facto) are backing. Sad if not tragic, but more tragi-comic than anything else.

[ Parent ]
How Right You Are (0.00 / 0)
Obama's vagueness on troop levels goes hand in hand with his voting to fund the war. This guy is the sleaziest of politicians by always ducking the hard questions and double talking when getting in trouble when he does answer the questions. How people can put blinders on and not see the truth is amazing.

At least with Clinton you know what you are getting and it isn't all bad. In fact after a double talking Bush candor is refreshing even if one doesn't like the whole package.

In my life I have learned that it is the double talkers and avoiders that will hurt you more than those who bare their soul. Good luck to us all should Obama get the nomination, we'll need all the luck we can get.

And for those who say they will hold his feet to the fire - good luck. He has distanced himself from the Left this entire campaign so why would he listen to you after being elected? He won't.


[ Parent ]
progressive policy (4.00 / 2)
I'm unclear on who gets to define the progressive policy positions.  Why are "no residual troops" and "no contract security forces" automatically assumed to be "progressive" here?  There seem to be a lot of people who call themselves progressive that disagree with these ideas.

Don't we have responsibility to ensure that the region remain as stable as possible?  If we can bring in more international support and make it clear that we are only there to ensure that terrorists don't gain a stronghold and that potential violence doesn't spill outside of Iraq, why is this so bad?


Because that's not why we would be there (0.00 / 0)
But even if those ostensible reasons were in fact true, Iraq should freely invite in international forces to do whatever jobs it feels, as a sovereign state, need doing. Right now Iraq is a militarily occupied state rather than a sovereign one. Proof: huge majorities of Iraqis simply want us to leave, but we don't.

[ Parent ]
I agree (0.00 / 0)
Iraq must want us to stay.  However, this is a more nuanced position than "all troops out now".  There is a huge difference between doing what we're doing now, only with fewer troops, and maintaining a strategic force in the region.  I think it's a mistake to blur that line.

[ Parent ]
Terrorists have a presence mostly because we are there (0.00 / 0)
There were no terrorists in Iraq under Saddam.

Not that I'm saying he was great, but the fact is that there were no terrorists in Iraq and things were pretty secure for ordinary people, as secure as it can be under a police state, and with decent services and lots of jobs for women.

"Defeating the terrorists" in Iraq, who are there because that's where they can kill Americans and/or because they want more power in their own country, has become the rationale for staying in Iraq.  We can't win, period, because to the extent the insurgency is against us, we could end it by leaving but can't by staying, and to the extent the insurgency is against the Maliki government and current power arrangements, there is nothing we can do to "win" it because it is an Iraqi fight.

Just as in Vietnam under Nixon, we can't leave because that would be "losing" but we can't win either. So we stay and more people die to ensure that those who died before didn't die in vain.  

You'd think McCain could see it, but he's too much of a war lover.  Obama probably really does see it, but there is just such a strong consensus in DC for the view you and his adviser espouse that he can't come out against it as long as his cred as Commander-in-Chief is under assault.  I just hope that once in power he would have more leeway, but to me this (plus the constitutional issues) are why Congress is so important.

 

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
Terrorists in Iraq (0.00 / 0)
is not the only current problem in Iraq in case you haven't noticed.

[ Parent ]
Lots of problems in Iraq (0.00 / 0)
But I was responding to Bobby Wallace's comment, asking whether preventing terrorists from getting a stringhold in Iraq wasn't a reasonable war aim.

It is hard to think of a problem in Iraq that is not traceable to our invasion and occupation, however.


John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
good point (0.00 / 0)
It's absolutely correct that the terrorists weren't there before we invaded.  Also, I'm of the opinion that as we draw down our troops we also take away a key recruiting pitch for new terrorists.  But, I also recognize that there are some terrorists that are likely to remain as well pull out and we should guard against their strengthening.  The last thing we want to do is leave a politically destabilized Iraq that allows terrorists to set up camps like in Afghanistan.  

[ Parent ]
i'm sorry, but who gives a f@#k about terrorists? (0.00 / 0)
the united states government along with private corporation and ratified by the u.s. electorate in 2004 has destroyed an entire society (more than one, but let's stick to Iraq here).  

Right now Iraq doesn't EXIST, Iraqi society doesn't EXIST, and it's the U.S. fault.  There isn't anyone to ask whether or not the U.S. should remain there, and frankly, that's not how these things will work under this international order, pretty much ever, with rare exceptions.  More imperialist arguments about "strategic" this and that and "terrorism" are just that -- imperialism-- and have no place in any "progressive" discussion of politics.

So if you want to have a "progressive" argument about why the United States should maintain forces in Iraq, then it should start with this premise: The ONLY reason that American troops should be in Iraq is if it's absolutley necessary to prevent something even worse from happening (e.g. genocide, massive violence, etc.).

And if you want to make a "progressive" argument that the the United States should withdraw its troops, it has to realistically take into account what will happen not just to American soldiers and mercenaries and American society and oil, but to the people who live in Iraq, refugees, etc.  And not just lip service--it has to really take those factors into account.

Which of course it won't,  because there's no primary for iraqis for obama and clinton to squabble over ;)


[ Parent ]
well pull out = we pull out (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Agreed (0.00 / 0)
I for one see the need for security forces in Iraq because it and the region are very volatile. And keeping a cap on a volatile Middle East is in our National Security interest.

None of us wanted to be there. And the entire blame is on Bush as he made the unilateral decision to kick the inspectors out. But now that we are there and having created the mess that Iraq is we have a duty to ourselves and our National Security and to the rest of the world to fix this seemingly unfixable mess that Bush created.


[ Parent ]
This is a problem for Obama (0.00 / 0)
Samatha Power got fired for using the word "monster" and Kahl hasn't been fired for talking nonsense that conveniently was leaked to the press? That is a values problem.

And for the record, Power was right.


*sigh* (0.00 / 0)
I miss John Edwards...

Edwards left more in (0.00 / 0)
According to Richardson, Edwards was to leave up to 90,000 residue troops in Iraq instead of the 60,000 estimated for the others.  According to this chart, at least, Edwards is worst, not best.

[ Parent ]
Or, I could click (0.00 / 0)
Clicking through Richardson's site to Edwards' site where they supposedly got the 90,000 all I see is:

We should leave behind in Iraq only a brigade of 3,500 to 5,000 troops to protect the embassy and possibly a few hundred troops to guard humanitarian workers.

I'm not sure how that equals 90,000.


[ Parent ]
Edwards has a lower number (4.00 / 1)
It was 3,500-5,000 for Edwards. He was better than Obama and Clinton.  

[ Parent ]
Edwards would have had (0.00 / 0)
to ramp up his number and we all know that.

3,500-5,000 is not enough to patrol a city little on deal with the mess Iraq is.

5000 divided into 3 shifts is only 1666 troops. What are 1666 troops supposed to accomplish? And then if out of the total 5000 troops that number includes 'support' staff with combat troops then the 1666 becomes more like 1000 combat troops which is hardly enough to protect the embassy little on accomplish anything else. I never bought into Edwards' 5000 number because it was easy to see it was not a realistic number and was more a pander to the Out of Iraq vote.


[ Parent ]
Read the above quote! (4.00 / 1)
HIs mission for the troops was to defend the embassy and 'perhaps' some humanitarian workers: i.e., protect the embassy and accomplish little else.

What the hell do you expect US troops to accomplish in Iraq?  Their presence there is indendiary and does little but lead to more violence.


[ Parent ]
We have already (0.00 / 0)
had mass genocide and the uprooting of Iraqi's from their homes thus creating millions of refugees. And that was with our presence. Do yo think that it would have been better without our presence? I don't think so as both of those things did not target US troops but were instead were Iraqi against Iraqi. I think without a doubt the killing would have been worse without our presence and that our leaving would lead to more of the same but on a bigger scale. I don't think Edwards or any President could just stand by and just watch that happen under the circumstances.

There was a time when Progressives didn't stand for Genocide or the mass uprooting of Indigenous people from their homes. Now it appears the Left just doesn't care. When it comes to Iraq there is no forward thinking on the part of the Left as to what we leave behind. It's seems OK that we leave the majority Shiia to slaughter any remaining Sunni who do not head for Jordan.


[ Parent ]
OUR PRESENCE EXACERBATED THE ETHNIC CLEANSING (0.00 / 0)
Every element of how Bush/Rumsfeld implemented the stupid occupation marginalized US troops and fanned the flames of sectarianism.  Do you think it helped racial tensions when, barely a few months after going into Iraq, the US just declared the country read for elections?  Or, how about the way that they turned Saddam's hanging into a Shi'ite revenge ritual?  To claim that the presence of US troops and the influence of US policy didn't make things worse is to just be turning a blind eye to the whole situation.  

And under what conditions would you propose removing US troops?  And how do you expect them to be able to usher in a permanent peace?  Because it seems to me that the only stable domestic solution for Iraq would be to split it in three, which would totally upset the Middle Eastern regional balance of power.  

Also, without our presence, there would have been no ethnic cleansing, because Saddam would not have allowed it.  Dictators aren't fond of mass uprisings along ethnic lines, whether their name is Hussein or Tito.  


[ Parent ]
Yeah you are right (0.00 / 0)
"Bush/Rumsfeld implemented the stupid occupation marginalized US troops and fanned the flames of sectarianism."

And now the cat is now out of the bag and us leaving won't change anything but make it worse which is my point.

In your post above you speak of the past. Fine you are right. But what you and others don't speak of or even think about is the future which I see as the folly in your argument.

You are so stuck in what you wanted last year and the year before and the year before that you resist looking at the situation and the bad ramifications of us just pulling out. You refuse to adjust your thinking to the situation today and what it means to the Iraqis or to the region or to our own National Security.

Just getting out won't solve a thing because it is my belief that we will just have to go back in to stop a Genocide which may not happen if we stay until a solution can be found. And if you are going to say a solution cannot be found because so far it hasn't then you are basing that assumption on that Bush has done everything possible to find a solution but of course we should all know that he hasn't.


[ Parent ]
can you provide anything to back up the empirical bases of your claims? (0.00 / 0)
i want to know exactly how genocide is going to happen, who is going to commit it, and what the u.s. troop role will be in preventing it.

Because, like your rhetoric, this is a concern I also have, but unlike you, I don't implicitly accuse other people of not caring about genocide.  So I put the ball in your court--tell us exactly what the situation is in Iraq, what you base that on, and why it's necessary to maintain what is currently a (half-ass) imperial occupying force there in order to prevent something worse from happening.

let us have a real discussion here.


[ Parent ]
Careful with your metrics (0.00 / 0)
As I recall, Edwards advocated leaving soldiers behind for basically embassy defense, which is why the number was so small.  I can see why you'd get behind that approach.

I would be cautious about automatically calling lower numbers better policy; that leaves out the possibility of one 60,000 troop policy being better than another 60,000 troop policy.


[ Parent ]
Ok, I'm going to be the bad guy... (4.00 / 1)
I do believe we need to get out of Iraq; however, it is important that we get out in a way that does not contribute to a worsening of the situation.  You know, sometimes, doing what should/ought to be done, and doing it in the way that is most beneficial, isn't what we really want to do.  This is one of those cases: we do want to get out, and we want to get out now.  I, for one, think we would be abdicating our responsibility to the Iraqi people if we did that, and we would be committing ourselves to a policy that is not consistent with what should be part of our core belief: peace, friendship, cooperation.  We cannot just abandon the Iraqi people.  We do have a responsibility.  This doesn't mean we should leave combat troops, but it may mean we have to leave 'residual' troops to help keep/maintain/preserve the peace and provide Iraqi's the opportunity to really develop their government.

Like I said, I'm sure this won't go over well.  


Being there (0.00 / 0)
makes the situation worse.  Our responsibility to the Iraqis included listening to them, and not operating under the assumption that if we call troops "non-combat" that matters to anyone but us.  Ending the occupation does not mean abandonment.  There is no peace to "keep/maintain/preserve."  

 

Support a Pennsylvania Progressive for Governor - Joe Hoeffel


[ Parent ]
Probably (0.00 / 0)
I think this is largely correct, but when a line of reasoning leads to the conclusion I want it to, I get suspicious.  I'd love it if cutting taxes actually increased revenue, for example, but we know better.  I'd love it if pulling out completely and quickly was actually the best thing for us and Iraqis, but... is it really?

As you can tell, I'm a bit wishy-washy on this issue.  We need to get out, that is for certain, but the details, including longer term residue force, is much murkier in my mind.


[ Parent ]
Iraqi's want us out (0.00 / 0)
But they are also afraid of us leaving.  There is something to be said for hesitating at a low level, seeing what the reaction is and going from there.

The counter argument, of course, is any troop level will still give terrorists a target and recruiting tool.

But the reality is we don't actually know.  I think I'm closer to your side than conventional wisdom of the left blogosphere.

I also worry a great deal about protecting the Iraqis that helped us, such as the translators we hired.  We need to give them a choice of immunity and immigration to America.

Doing the right thing is not trivial or obvious.  As long as our motivations are legitimately good and not just excuses for empire I think we'll be ok.


[ Parent ]
Let's face it (0.00 / 0)
There is no quick and asy way out.  Logistically, I've heard it would take a year to extricate most of our troops.  Of course, we could just leave all the weapons and machinery etc behind and rush out, but no one is talking about that.

If I were the new Pres I'd meet with my Sec Def and the heads of the services and regional commander and say ok, we're going to start leaving.  You figure out the safest way to get your people out and just get started.  Let the Iraqis know too.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
Rational Iraq Policy (0.00 / 0)
Yes, most rational people, including the overwhelming majority of the population, would support precisely the policy you outline.

Alas, there is effectively zero probability that an incoming Democratic administration would enact anything of the kind, as should be apparent from the comments above.  

The question for those truly committed to reversing the half century long bipartisan commitment to military aggression in support of global mulitnational capital is whether we find the likely cost of an open ended commitment in Iraq acceptable.  

That will mean-to be blunt-hundred of thousands of additional Iraqi dead, likely thousand more U.S. soldiers, more hundreds of billions of good money thrown after bad as our domestic infrastructure continues to rot at the foundations.

If you regard these costs as acceptable, the Democrats are your party.

Those who do not will begin to seriously consider other alternatives.


[ Parent ]
Of course there is a quick way out of Iraq (0.00 / 0)
John Kerry said it thirty-some years ago when he was asked how we could get the troops out of Vietnam --- a place we simply "could not" just leave.  His two word answer was "in ships."

We can do it.  We just don't want to.  We want to lie, and believe the lies that we don't want the oil, that we can impose "democracy" or "stability" under bombs and foreign guns, that the Marines are really the Peace Corps or whatever.

But John Kerry knew the way out thirty-some years ago, just like we all know it now.  We, and the politicians we support are just too craven to make it happen.

"If you want that good feeling that comes from doing things for other people, then you have to pay for it in abuse and misunderstanding..."
Zora Neale Hurston


[ Parent ]
I wish things could be so simple. (0.00 / 0)
The fact is, Kerry was right--all we needed to do was board the ships and take us home.  And still, it is also fact that what was needed to bring us home was a great deal more complicated, and not just due to politics.  There is no such thing as a simple solution to foreign/international affairs, especially in war zones.  

It really doesn't matter that we want something--that is usually the reason we find ourselves in these predicaments.  We have to take the time and exercise patience for sound judgment in grappling with the issues to find a solution that is in everyone's interest (Iraqi and American).  The idea that we can quickly extricate ourselves from the quagmire of Iraq is no more different than the idea that got us in there in the first place: OUR SELF INTERESTS!

When we leave--Not if we leave, but when we leave we have a responsibility to leave Iraq better off than when we went in.  This means we have to invest in it-----even with our lives.  

On this point, it really doesn't matter that we don't like it.  It IS our responsibility.


[ Parent ]
i agree with you (0.00 / 0)
but my concern is that the united states government is never going to do this.  it is fundamentally an imperialist force in the world, and expecting it to act benevolently is a mistake.

I think the choice is basically between two really bad options: total withdrawal; and a minimum requisite force that will serve the u.s. imperialist interest in a way that allows some of what you're talking about to happen.  I don't know which one is necessary because, unfortunately, these conversations don't happen enough and I don't know what the current situation is there.  Frankly, the American political discussion on Iraq has simply forgotten that there are the remnants of a society there and a lot of people whose interests need to be taken account of.


[ Parent ]
Cruise Missile Democrats (4.00 / 1)
"The simple, and depressing, fact is that we will not end our military participation in the war in Iraq just by winning a big trifecta in the 2008 elections."

Indeed.

Nice to see the Democrats reveal their true face as the junior pro war party.

Sooner or later, with a couple million Iraqi corpses, ten thousand dead American soldiers, and a bankrupt treasury in its wake, Stoller and Bowers and the left blogosphere will wake up to the reality that the DP has played them for suckers, as it has generations of bright eyed and bushy tailed young lefties.

Then we can begin the real work of developing a serious alternative.


No Democratic President will leave Iraq (0.00 / 0)
as I have been arguing repeatedly, no Democratic President will leave Iraq. This is just further evidence.

and, frankly, I think "conditional engagement" is valid and that a total withdrawal of all combat forces would be foolish to our self interest as well as Iraq's. Withdrawal and stay the course need not be the only options. Staying the course as McCain would have us do is of course untenable, but there is a blood cost to total withdrawal as well.

A good question for Obama would be, does he support the Euston Manifesto? Where does he disagree, if at all?


There is a way around this problem (4.00 / 1)
Rasmussen has asked the same polling question weekly since August: Do you support the withdrawal of U.S. troops within one year? I assume that people hear "all U.S. troops" in that question. The percentage answering yes has ranged from 57 percent to 64 percent, and currently is at 59 percent overall, and 81 percent of Democrats.

Why then do not Democratic presidential candidates support a one-year withdrawal of all U.S. troops? The main reason is that they are afraid of being accused of "cutting and running," of abandoning Iraq to greater violence if the U.S. leaves, of giving a victory to terrorists. All these propositions are debateable, but they are real political considerations.

There is a way out of this dilemma, which is for the United States to support a national referendum in Iraq on whether the U.S. occupation should continue. Since we know that at least two thirds of Iraqis want the United States to withdraw within one year, such a referendum would pass. That's something that could happen under an Obama administration. We would have been voted out of Iraq, not driven out by violence, and thus all the fears that limit withdrawal would not be operational.

The Iraq Initiatives Project, of which I am co-founder, is advocating a referendum in Iraq on the occupation as well as ballot masures here supporting a referendum and a one-year withdrawal of all U.S. troops.

An earlier version of this idea was posted on Open Left in September (promoted by Mike Lux), and Paul Rosenberg called it "brilliant." More recently, Tom Hayden had this to say: "I have read your materials, and the thinking is really brilliant. The value of the initiatives here is to eduate and engage more Americans in the peace movement's agena and build a gerater mandate for withdrawal. The value of a referendum in Iraaq is much greater. If it passed (as it would), it would undermine the occupation."

Detailed articles on the whole proposal will be available the middle of next week at www.epicalc.org. Chris, I appreciate your highlghting the problem of residual forces and your activism to make it into an issue. If you would like to post an article on the referendum proposal at Open Left, please contact me at jraymond@ojai.net.
   


Cynical (0.00 / 0)
You may be right that this all has to do with politics and cynical calculations, but I sure hope not.  Getting out of Iraq smoothly and setting her down as gently as possible will not be trivial.

[ Parent ]
And a Little Democracy Too (0.00 / 0)
It also has to do with democracy. The US invaded Iraq without consulting the Iraqi people and has occupied the country without consulting them. It is not clear that any kind of meaningful election can be held under the current conditions, but at least trying to determine their desires would be a good gesture.

[ Parent ]
"In Iraq" (0.00 / 0)
I read your original post too quickly and missed the whole "in Iraq" part.  I was thinking of a vote in the US, which didn't make a whole lot of sense.

If this is feasible, it makes sense.  It would be awkward if they voted for us to stay, though, wouldn't it?


[ Parent ]
Apologies for the Typos (0.00 / 0)
Here's what Tom Hayden actually said: "I have read your materials, and the thinking is really brilliant. The value of the initiatives here is to educate and engage more Americans in the peace movement's agenda and build a greater mandate for withdrawal. The value of a referendum in Iraq is much greater. If it passed (as it would), it would undermine the occupation."  

President Obama withdraw? Why would he do that? (4.00 / 1)
Uhhh Chris, there was this guy in the race from Cleveland, wasn't  there, who also wanted full withdrawal?  Dennis Kucinich?  Remember?

The problem with supporting Obama and expecting him to do a full withdawal is that once in office, the presidency is pretty much people-proof.  Look at Bush and Cheney who have governed much of the second term, in spite of war crimes, crimes against the constitutio and apparoval ratings occasionally below 30%.  

Under the current system as we understand it now, the ONLY Democratic test, the only enforceable "accountability moment" in a presidency is election day.  If Obama fans who want full withdrawal support him while he is NOT promising full withdrawal and he gets into office that way, where the heck is his motivation for fully withdrawing?  

Once elected, he's got what he needed in the only test that counted.  

I humbly suggest that the only reason Obama started pledging "16 months" is to allay or forestall grassroots pressure.  The way to ratchet that pressure up, it seems to me, is  to threaten to stay home or threaten to vote for somebody who DOES promise full withdrawal.  

His advisors know his REAL plan in a way that the rest of us do not, and the fact that even now one of the main ones is still stuck, effectively on a near-indefinite occupation by tens of thousands of US troops is a big warning sign that Obama fans may choose to ignore.  After all, fans are fans, no matter what, right?

Do you think Harry Truman in 1948 would have desegregated the armed forces if Henry Wallace had not been a third party candidate that year, stumping the country with Paul Robeson in tow, breaking local segregation ordinances in every town they stopped?

And here is a question for Obama fans:  Is there a line at all which Obama cannot cross without losing your support?  If so, what is it.  And if there is no such line, what does that say?

"If you want that good feeling that comes from doing things for other people, then you have to pay for it in abuse and misunderstanding..."
Zora Neale Hurston


Kucinich (4.00 / 1)
For myself I never supported Kucinich's plan in the first place.  There is certainly a line Obama could cross that would lose my support, but I can imagine scenarios where we get out too quickly, leaving behind Iraqi allies and equipment, for example, that would lose my support as well as staying in too long.

Our troops are causing more harm than good -- that much is clear.  But there is both a "harm" and "good" side to the ledger.  We need to leave in a way that promotes the good and lessons the harm.


[ Parent ]
presence (4.00 / 1)
In case I ever run for office some day I should correct the sentence to say "our troops presence is causing more harm than good".  I'm not dissing the troops, themselves, only the strategy.

[ Parent ]
OK, so where IS that line, pray tell? (0.00 / 0)
Question goes out to all the Obama fans.  Where is it?  Surely it must exist, right?

I fear that if nobody can name where it is, then it does not.

Is that the difference between a "movement" and a fan club?  That a movement acknowledges in advance the possibility of betrayal, and can even define what it might constitute?  But a fan cannot face it, even as a possibility, let alone define it.

"If you want that good feeling that comes from doing things for other people, then you have to pay for it in abuse and misunderstanding..."
Zora Neale Hurston


[ Parent ]
QED (4.00 / 1)
It is quite significant that Mr. Dixon's challenge has gone unanswered.


[ Parent ]
I ask it in every forum (0.00 / 0)
Nobody ever answers.

"If you want that good feeling that comes from doing things for other people, then you have to pay for it in abuse and misunderstanding..."
Zora Neale Hurston


[ Parent ]
WTF? (0.00 / 0)
Primarily it isn't answered because it is a stupid question.  There are a bunch of things that Obama will do as president that will disappoint me.  I'll do what I can to change those.  There are a bunch of things that he'll do that I'll like. I'll go "yea".

But this idea of having my support or or not, as some kind of boolean on/off switch is lame.  It only makes sense in an election and only in comparison to those the election is against.  

What would it take for me to pull the lever for a Republican or Green party candidate?  I'll admit I have no idea because that line is so far away from view it is hard to imagine.  But the same would be true for Clinton or any other Democrat; it has nothing to do with Obama.

Why is it that only Obama supporters are asked this type of question?  Where is the line for Clinton supporters?

Besides, you'll note I actually drew a line for you; one on the other side of the questions, but I gave an example.

So according to you I must know that if Obama leaves in, say, 50,499 troops by Jan. 1, 2010 then he has my support but if the number is 50,500 then he loses my support.  ??  And the fact I can't answer the question makes me a "just a fan" or in some kind of cult.

Am I understanding you complaint correctly?  I don't want to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand.


[ Parent ]
how's this: (0.00 / 0)
i don't support obama in terms of a black and white understanding of support (npi).  But, if and when his accumulated actions make me question whether or not he is actually improving the internal and external responsibility of the U.S. government (i.e. the bureaucracies, the actions of u.s. armed forces, etc.), then I will actively oppose him.  There is no single action, aside from an act of gross barbarism (e.g. invading another society for no particular reason, resulting in the deaths of 1,000,000 people or so and god kjnows what else), because having such single-issue lines is useless in my opinion unless it involves an egregious violation.  For now, I wait and see, because I know that regardless of what he believes and what he thinks, until he is in power, you won't really know with him, though I don't expect much in the way of policy but I do expect some, though not a lot, in terms of a change in the tone of American politics.

The reason why I DO show more positive feelings towards his candidacy than any other one since 1988 aside from race and generational reasons is because he will talk to me almost as if I'm an adult, which is dangerous in politics.  Not fully, of course, because that would be suicide in politics ;)

If I had a line such as yours, however, i would oppose all of the candidates.  Which I sort of do, except I have to live in the world.


[ Parent ]
No no no (0.00 / 0)
That doesn't work.  You must put hard numbers to every possible position and policy and send it out to everyone.  Then, each week, compare President Obama you your will documented numbers.  The moment he crosses a line, then you are honer bound to drop your support.

Don't you get it?  How else can you PROVE you aren't in a fan club or part of a cult.  Those who support other candidates deserve to know!  After all, everyone who ever supports any other candidate always does this.  Only Obama supporters forget to fill out this vital paperwork for democracy.


[ Parent ]
and yes, a candidacy is not a "movement" (0.00 / 0)
though it can be part of one, stoke one, help promote a dozen, etc.

and now a question for you--what underlying suspicion or doubt makes you ask this provocative question?


[ Parent ]
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