strangely... (4.00 / 3)

This sort of thing doesn't happen over ideology so much as it does over "label" things like Obama/Clinton, Microsoft/Apple/Linux (hello, Slashdot). I am far less likely to experience homophily [1] or heterophobia [2] when confronted with someone ideologically distant from me than I am with someone who simply differs by "label".

I guess it's because labels are opaque; you can't really see what the person is thinking. So you jump to a conclusion (likes Obama == snotty latte-drinker; likes Hillary == ?? -- not sure what the stereotype is this week.) Whereas it takes time to identify someone's ideological background, and by the time you've done that you've probably gotten half-way to sympathizing with them on some level. And of course, if you want to divide up people by ideology, you start coming up with sharp names that short-circuit things.

If there's a lesson here, it's that you can reduce flocking by going a step back and talking (gasp!) about the issues. I bet you could reduce the anger and troll-rates by requiring every post to discuss things without using either "Clinton" or "Obama" for at least a paragraph. Which, obviously, will start to happen once the nomination is settled -- i.e., I don't see the flocking effect lasting past then.

[1]. "experiencing homophily" is the best euphemism ever.
[2]. actually, I think I am using this word correctly.

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by: sdedeo @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 22:53:34 PM CDT

posters vs readers (4.00 / 4)

I don't think that the patterns of the readers has changed that much.

I saw Jerome do a poll and like 80% of the people who voted were for obama (around there at least).

If you look at the diehard Clinton supporters I don't think they were posting on the net before they went to post on mydd.

Likewise dailykos and everywhere else never really liked edwards that much.  They never endorsed him and always found issues with him.  What dkos liked was his message and even then Obama had a sizable supporter population on there.

Any permanent patterns in my opinion would mostly come the quality of the posts by the people on those sites than any flocking.

The liberal wiki
Send an email to terra@liberalwiki.com

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by: TerraFF @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 22:54:27 PM CDT

Hmmm. (0.00 / 0)

Can you find a link to that MyDD poll?  If I'm not mistaken, Edwards won every straw poll at DKos in 2007 and Obama didn't pull even with him until late January.

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by: tremayne @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 23:05:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And ... (0.00 / 0)

Feingold won the original polls .. before Clinton ... Obama and Edwards had announced .. back when everyone was throwing names around .. in fact .. if Feingold had run .. I bet he would have consistently gotten 60 or 70% .. but alas he didn't run  

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by: Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 23:21:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I expect the following to occur (4.00 / 2)

Denial.  Anger. Bargaining. Depression. Acceptance.

We've seen denial and anger.  The "Unity ticket" stuff strikes me as bargaining.

Now, we can just wait for the depression to kick in and hope it doesn't last too long.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

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by: Anthony de Jesus @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 23:14:09 PM CDT

Depends on the site (4.00 / 3)

I figure that TalkLeft will come back together, but MyDD has been treating anyone who's not a diehard Clinton supporter like Kos treats 9/11 truthers. The admins ripped MyDD apart, and I think it'll be a long time before the "professional" attitude that used to prevail over there returns.

As for DKos, I don't think the most vocal Clinton people will come back there, but I think TerraFF has it right upthread, that most of them came online during the primary season, and most will fade away afterwards whether Hillary wins or loses.

So far as congregating around values (rather than simple candidate preference), most people I've come to know online in the last 5 years view the war in Iraq as the defining line that divides "us" from "them" -- a split as pronounced within the party than between Ds and Rs -- which is why the flood of Clinton people seemed so spurious and out of the blue. Once the 08 election is over and done with, we might all have different causes that attract our attention, and the deck will probably shuffle pretty significantly from where it is now (assuming the Dem nominee wins in the end).

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by: mattw @ Tue Apr 08, 2008 at 23:36:23 PM CDT

This Is Going to Be a Problem in the Future (0.00 / 0)

The Iraq war has been a simple litmus test with widespread agreement.  How is the progressive movement going to function if/when US troops are gone from Iraq and other issues come to the forefront?  Imagine the ferocity of debate if the progressive movement is split between those who favor a Dean/Obama-style health care plan, those who favor something along the lines of Clinton/Edwards, and those who want even more.  Arguably, all of those approaches to health care can be accurately labeled as progressive, but I think that a lot of adherents to those stances are not going to see it that way.

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

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by: Anthony de Jesus @ Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 00:50:43 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

It'll heal (0.00 / 0)

The candidate diaries are awful beyond belief and Jerome really has not tried to raise the level of discourse, but Todd and Jonathan seem generally to have maintained that professional attitude.

Once Obama gets the nomination, he'll be endorsed by all the frontpagers and the Clinton supporters will either follow suit or be kicked off the site. I don't expect Jerome to have good words for him, but there are plenty of other things he can post about and in any case the site has ticked over fine when he's posted much more sparsely than he is at the moment.

I agree that a lot of the candidate supporters will disappear, especially since some of the foremost Clinton partisans appear to be more conservative than most blogosphere denizens, but some will remain and when it stops becoming a cagefight it, like all the other blogs, is likely to regain some of the readership that's taken a break from the site.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

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by: Englishlefty @ Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 07:28:14 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

People Will Come To Their Senses (I Hope) (4.00 / 4)

It's counterintuitive, but perhaps the shortage of really dramatic differences in policy positions between Obama and Clinton has helped foster the bitterness of the division between their supporters, by moving the debate to arguments that are based more in emotion and basic values than in specific policies or issues.

Because many of the most passionate supporters on either side are arguing from emotion or individual (subjective) values, it's harder to articulate objective or precise reasons for liking their candidate or disliking the other candidate. At the very heart, past all the rhetoric and ideological nitpicking, it really for many people comes down to "I can't stand Hillary" versus "I don't trust Obama." Everything else is just rationalization to try to ground emotional positions in some kind of reality, no matter how shaky or petty the argument.

How can a debate like that avoid devolving into irrational polarization and enraged feces-flinging? We can politely disagree about ideas, but we'll beat each other to a pulp over opinions. And the more irrational your rationale, the more insecure you'll feel and the more you'll stick your fingers in your ears rather than permit yourself the vulnerable position of possibly being wrong.

But I think that's also why the conflict will blow over faster than many people fear. Emotions are much more changeable than convictions. When the smoke clears and people have a chance to take a step back and breathe, they'll stop seeing demons on the other side of the gap and just see Democrats. That's when we'll shake our heads and chuckle sheepishly, join hands, and proceed to kick the crap out of John "Colonel Tigh's Less Mentally Stable Older Brother" McCain.

I hope so, anyway.

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by: Hoooey @ Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 00:31:10 AM CDT

It's Like Academia (4.00 / 1)

It's counterintuitive, but perhaps the shortage of really dramatic differences in policy positions between Obama and Clinton has helped foster the bitterness of the division between their supporters

The battles are so vicious because there's so little at stake. A little bit like Eugene, Ore. in the 1980s, when people would actually argue over Nike vs. Adidas vs. New Balance running shoes.

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by: C-Pluckhahn @ Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:09:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Daily Kos's Radical Obama Tilt Doesn't Surprise Me (0.00 / 0)

That site has always been group-think central, not to mention shallow and horrendously over-emoting. Reminds me of the college newspaper I worked for way back when. I haven't spent much time at MyDD, so I wouldn't have a good sense of them. Kind of hard to imagine getting truly enthusiastic about Hillary Clinton; when I supported her, it was a complete party sale.

I think the various blogs will get back to wherever they were before, which means talking to themselves and their 100 closest friends.

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by: C-Pluckhahn @ Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 01:06:58 AM CDT

Plutocracy, Oligarchy, or Fascism? American? Not so much. (4.00 / 1)

This must be an anomaly, because in my state the Clinton and Obama supporters are friends with each other. Whichever candidate is nominated that's the one they'll all support. There is no mess, confusion, fighting, or any other problem described by the news media always in a negative sense. May the best man or woman win. The choices democrats have are historical and would be a dramatic change from the G.O.P. fascist party that is doing its damndest to undermine our democratic republic in a manner much in common with treason or at the very least is anti-American.

The greatest satisfaction in my life will be the end of the blonde ditzes who parrot neocon garbage, and that arrogant and smug look wiped off the faces of the biggest jerks in the world - the leaders of the Republican Party. The manner in which they behave is despicable, and it is not just politics as usual or trivial when a group of power hungry and greedy individuals undermine our system of checks and balances with ludicrous legal arguments that only survive because of the complicity of the news media rather than logic and precedent.

The very worst thing that has happened to our country is governance through public relations. Members of government create a false impression of reality and then market it as if it is the best thing since indoor plumbing. Americans have never been as uninformed as they are today, because there is an aggressive effort to misinform citizens about practically every action the administration takes. There really is only one reason that they are so secretive, ego-centric and dead wrong; they are behaving in a criminal manner.

John McCain wants to be president so badly that he'll play ball with the same miscreants as Bush and Cheney. The anti-American foursome: intelligence/propaganda media/technology/special interest plutocrats will just have a new tool to play with, but in dead earnest. They want it all.

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by: gc_wall @ Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 03:50:09 AM CDT

Patriots? (0.00 / 0)

one more thought... Do not for a minute believe that John McCain will remain broke, because of a lack of real grassroots support. Major corporations are preparing to dump at least 100 million into the McCain war chest, so that McCain will have a fresh start with all the advertising money can buy. Prepare for a blitz unlike any other. The fascists have worked many years to finally declare themselves victorious. They have effectively destroyed our democratic republic, especially the rights and liberties that make a citizen a natural patriot.  

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by: gc_wall @ Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 04:10:42 AM CDT

Homophily, or tribalism? (0.00 / 0)

Is this split entirely candidate driven or are there underlying value differences which could persist long beyond the spring/summer of this year?

To the extent that the political differences are driven by identity politics of race and/or gender, I think they will prove durable. Fortunately, I believe the MSM portrayal of these factors as causes of the split is overblown. Still, they are part of the picture.

You've put your finger on an important element of this issue: the internet, by the nature of its interactivity, is particularly conducive to the "flocking" of like-minded people. More important, I think, is the risk of homophily hardening into tribalism, which may have already happened some places. To the extent that people's identification with a particular candidacy becomes part of their self-image, they may need to be wooed energetically in order to be convinced to re-engage with the process if their preferred candidate isn't the nominee.

Having their chosen candidate energetically support the eventual nominee would go a long way toward solving this problem. Allowing the nomination process to play out in a relatively natural way, rather than forcing an abrupt resolution, will also help.

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by: FearItself @ Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 06:50:41 AM CDT

No permanent split. (0.00 / 0)

The Clinton-Obama tiffs are mostly the product of an anxious Dem base (historically bad prez, frustratingly impotent congressional majority) with a lot of time on its hands due to the labyrinthine primary process.

There are a few who are hardening, but a huge majority of Dems will end up supporting the nominee.

 

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by: Tom Gilpin Jr @ Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 09:17:57 AM CDT

I think it's a bit different (0.00 / 0)

The qualms are not so easy to pin down on the small ideological differences between the two campaigns. I believe the anxiety is and was there but was exploited by the campaigns to a large degree in efforts to break off parts of each other's supposed 'base'. I personally feel as though it's been the Clinton campaign for the most part trying to tear apart the party along identity lines, but in any case, responsibility for the division has to in part lie with the campaigns.

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by: BlueLake @ Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 09:37:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

MYDD is not worth my time to click thru (0.00 / 0)

After wasting too many visits, I have long given up and do not and will not go there. It was sad because I was a MYDD addict but I had to go cold turkey (including a few relapses). But I got it out of my system and I don't look back.  

MyDD is not worth the time or energy it takes to click the mouse. period.

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by: aiko @ Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 09:48:55 AM CDT

On a Unity Ticket (0.00 / 1)

I am an avid Clinton supporter. I support a Unity Ticket.

I just want to clarify, however, that I don't support a Unity Ticket because I believe that either Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama should be Vice President.  I don't.  I think Hillary Clinton should be President or Senate Majority Leader, and Barack Obama should stay the junior senator from Illinois.  It would bother me to see Hillary Clinton be someone's second fiddle, and I can think of 10 other people I'd rather see on Hillary Clinton's ticket before Barack Obama.    

However, the reason I support a Unity Ticket is because I have too many friends who say "I'll vote for McCain if it's not (insert candidate here)"... I'd even be tempted, just a little bit, not to pull the lever (or push the button) for Barack Obama (but I could never vote for McCain).  If Hillary were on the ballot with Obama, it would make it much easier to swallow for Hillary supporters to vote for him, and I assume the same goes for Obama supporters if Hillary is the nominee.  

The party is extremely fractured right now, more than many bloggers think. This isn't limited to the elite set or the hyper-engaged like us on this blog. We need both of these candidates to pull their supporters together for the sake of the country and save us from McCain.      

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by: TurnpikeKid @ Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 10:51:17 AM CDT

Hmm... (0.00 / 0)

interesting question.

I think that to the extent it's encouraged "brand shopping" the effects wil be permanent.

You don't go back to Kools after you get used to smoking Newports, though Kools will do in a pinch.

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by: ek hornbeck @ Wed Apr 09, 2008 at 14:34:46 PM CDT