We'd Win This Football Game If It Were Basketball

by: Chris Bowers

Mon Apr 21, 2008 at 19:29


This odd statement from Bill Clinton sums up quite a few things about the campaign:

Following a rally for his wife's campaign at Market Square in Pittsburgh, former president Bill Clinton suggested his wife would already be the nominee -- if she were running under Republican party rules.

"If we were under the Republican system, which is more like the Electoral College, she'd have a 300-delegate lead here," he said. "I mean, Senator McCain is already the nominee because they chose a system to produce that result, and we don't have a nominee here, because the Democrats chose a system that prevents that result."

Yes, and Mitt Romney would have been tied with John McCain in delegates if Republicans used the Democratic system. However, Clinton and Obama are not following the Republican system, and McCain and Romney were not following the Democratic system. This is a fact the Obama campaign appeared well aware of, but the Clinton campaign did not. The strange belief that winning eight or nine large primary states by narrow amounts, and ignoring virtually all other post-January states, would lead to victory in a proportional delegate system appears to be the largest strategic mistake of the campaign. Obama's massive caucus victories in Alaska, Colorado, Idaho, Kansas, Nebraska, North Dakota and Washington actually netted him more delegates (+85) as Clinton netted from her victories in California and New York (+84), despite vast population differences and monetary requirements to win the two groups of states. The Obama campaign executed a strategy to grab delegates wherever they were, and often found cost-effective ways of doing so. Their strategy worked, and Clinton's did not.

Whatever arguments someone wants to make about the democratic nature of the smaller state caucuses that Obama maximized, the fact is that in a delegate-based system, Obama's "get delegates wherever they are," strategy has proven superior to Clinton's media-focused strategy of claiming popular vote victories in a few large states. It also demonstrates the nonsensical nature of Clinton's electability argument to superdelegates, which is largely based on her having won popular vote victories in large states. Post-South Carolina, Clinton focused on the larger states, and ended up behind in delegates even though the campaign secured the victories it sought. Why is a campaign more electable because its strategy didn't work? Obama didn't pursue the caucus and small state strategy out of a belief that it was the moral thing to do, just as Clinton did not pursue popular vote victories in the large states because of an obscure ethical argument. Instead, both sides pursued strategies they believed would lead to victory. That Clinton is behind in delegates despite securing the popular vote victories in the large states its campaign sought is demonstrative of weakness the campaign's weakness terms of electoral strategy. If anything, it shows that Clinton is less electable than Obama, not more.

The Clinton campaign successfully executed its campaign strategy--it just didn't work. While is very nice that the strategy might have worked under different rules, it is more likely that if the rules were different, then the Obama campaign would have pursued a different strategy. Further, that the Clinton campaign did not employ a strategy to work under the rules presented to the candidates at the start of the primary season is indicative of strategic myopia that would lead to another bad strategy even if the rules changed. If you can solve the problem presented to you under one set of rules, why should we have any confidence you could solve a different problem under a different set of rules?  

Chris Bowers :: We'd Win This Football Game If It Were Basketball

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Good argument. Also, Obama nets 1.5 more pledged delegates (4.00 / 1)
from final Dems Abroad tally:

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes...


talk about proving the point (0.00 / 0)
Obama went to the ends of the earth to find delegates!

On twitter: @BobBrigham

[ Parent ]
Is that how a leader talks? (0.00 / 0)
What crybabies.  There campaign is reduced to one big argument about why they shouldn't have to quit.  Inspiring stuff Bill, thanks.  

Bill didn't seem to have a problem .. (0.00 / 0)
with it in 1992 .. did he? .. he's just become one WATB .. since Obama kicked Hillary's ass .. they knew the rules .. and  chose not to play by them .. it is obvious that Hillary isn't that great a politician .. because she underestimated Obama big time

[ Parent ]
If they are so impressed with the Republicans... (4.00 / 3)
...they should go ahead and join them. They are beyond pathetic.

Huh? (0.00 / 0)
Bill says "if the system were more like the electoral college, Hilary would be ahead."  That is an argument about electability.  It may be a good argument, or a bad argument.  Most of these electability arguments are weak, on both sides.  But what he says, and what he means, is clear.

Your counter is "Obama played the rules we have better than Clinton," which is beside Bill's point, because obviously he is admitting that the rules are not favoring Hilary - he's arguing that the rules aren't a good way to guage success in the electoral college.  You don't answer this - instead you try to argue that Obama is the better candidate because he strategized the board better, regarding of whether the board is reflective of the board that will be played in the general.  Unless you think that Obama can play Florida in the general just as well as he played Wyoming in the primary, your comment doesn't make a lick of sense.


substitute Colorado and Iowa for Wyoming (3.00 / 4)
Please try to put the states that are relevant in your comment, otherwise we know you are being dishonest.


New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.

[ Parent ]
You and me both. I sure won't miss (0.00 / 0)
the disingenuous arguments.

[ Parent ]
Nah they were caucuses i.e. They don't matter remember. (0.00 / 0)
How about Wisconsin. And Missouri. And Virginia. They are clutching at straws. Let them be if it helps them feel better in their denial.

[ Parent ]
Dishonest? (0.00 / 0)
Put in Colorado, Iowa, or any other state you want to - the observation is the same.  Bill Clinton says the system doesn't reflect the electoral college, and that if it did, Hilary would be ahead.  Chris doesn't address the substance of Clinton's comment.

Why you would think my comment is dishonest is beyond strange, but this board gets weirder by the day.


[ Parent ]
The only thing that gets wierder is the Clinton spin (4.00 / 2)
You do realise he is only saying it because she is behind under this system don't you? He doesn't give a damn how the nominee is chosen. He had no complaints in 1992. Because I'm sure if roles were reversed he would be making the same argument for Obama. He would wouldn't he?

[ Parent ]
That should say... (4.00 / 2)
...He doesn't give a damn how the nominee is chosen just as long as it is Hillary. He had no complaints in 1992.  

[ Parent ]
Welcome to reality, my friend. (0.00 / 0)
I'm glad you come to terms with the fact that politicians (and nearly everyone else) say things that benefit their interests, and avoid saying things that don't.  Perhaps one day you'll stop thinking it's weird, or that it doesn't just apply to people named Clinton.

[ Parent ]
Senator McCain... (0.00 / 1)
...is that you?

[ Parent ]
off the deep end (0.00 / 1)
You're welcoming people to reality?

On twitter: @BobBrigham

[ Parent ]
Obama would have run an entirely different campaign given (4.00 / 4)
different rules. Would he have been doomed by a system that is top-heavy toward coronated candidates? I don't know --  but maybe that's why we changed the rules in the first place. So we wouldn't get stuck when machine bosses.

But this is an apple argument and Obama's viability in the general against McCain is an orange argument.  


[ Parent ]
IF we're going to make the primary reflect the EC (4.00 / 1)
...then maybe we should just let the swing states (states in which the margin of victory was under 5%) determine the nominee while the rest of America shuts up.

I'd rather stick with a system where every vote counts--and that includes votes in states where a candidate is overwhelmingly favored to get a majority.


[ Parent ]
Perhaps he doesn't address it. (0.00 / 0)
Because it's not relevant.

If primary victories equaled general victories, then it would be.  But, since it's not, it's a red herring.


[ Parent ]
Missing the point (4.00 / 6)
Your counter is "Obama played the rules we have better than Clinton," which is beside Bill's point, because obviously he is admitting that the rules are not favoring Hilary - he's arguing that the rules aren't a good way to guage success in the electoral college.

Rules don't favor one candidate or the other. Candidates and campaigns come up with strategies relevant to the rules.

The point isn't that the rules were against Clinton. The point is that her strategy didn't work because it wasn't as relevant to the rules as was Obama's. It is about a bad strategy, not immutable candidate qualities that rules will necessarily favor or harm.  


[ Parent ]
Hardly (0.00 / 0)
Let's say the primary system is football, and the general election is basketball - which is essentially, in your terms, what Clinton is saying.  He is saying that Hilary is a better basketball player, but she's being forced to play football in the primary.  That's Bill's point, good or bad.

If a candidate wins in the primary, at football, it may because he or she is a great all around athelete, or only that he or she is good at football, but not at basketball.  In other words, his or her skills, strategizing, etc., might applicable to both games, but that is hardly a given.  If the candidate who is losing at football is seven feet tall and has a terrific jump, it may be the that candidate who is losing at football is the better candidate for the coming game of basketball.


[ Parent ]
Lovely allegory (4.00 / 1)
Completely meaningless, but a lovely allegory.

If the Clinton campaign wasn't able to tap in to activist networks, to play the caucus games properly and to maintain the advantages in the small states that they certainly had for much of 2007, that's because the campaign did the politics badly. That doesn't make them more electable.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
It doesn't work that way (4.00 / 2)
It's not logical to assume that the winner of a hypothetical winner-take-all Democratic primary would be the candidate who would do better in the Electoral College in the general election. In the hypothetical primary, the focus would be overwhelmingly on California, Texas, and New York -- states that are essentially meaningless in the general because we already know which way they'll go.

If you wanted to design a primary system that would produce someone who would do well in the Electoral College, then swing states should be the only ones that really count. The problem, of course, is that we don't necessarily know what the swing states are going to be (one of the good things about having Obama as the nominee is that maybe we can stop hopelessly kowtowing to Florida every year).

But even that design would be making the assumption that winning the Democratic primary is a good predictor of ability to win the general. And that's far from clear, since the universe of voters is quite different. Almost everyone who votes in the Democratic primary will be voting for the Democratic candidate in the general, whoever it is. The voters who will determine the outcome in the general are people who aren't voting in the primary, so the primary can't tell us much about how they'll react to our candidates.


[ Parent ]
thats what Hillary is saying (0.00 / 0)
we should only count FL and MI. and WV of course, just in case MI changes its mind.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
I agree (0.00 / 0)
I don't think Bill is right, or anyone can make a solid argument on electibility, because the dynamics of the primary and the general are too different.  


[ Parent ]
level playing field (0.00 / 0)
that's why it should have been a bowl off.

THO!

both candidates will be on WWE Smackdown Monday or whatever its called tonight, and its anything goes. Someone spotted this outside the Clinton locker room:

(hot linked, enjoy it while it lasts)

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
To draw a bigger conclusion from this (4.00 / 2)
is that it shows that Sen. Clinton lacks strategic vision to implement big or global ideas.  Given that we need massive corrections for the country, it is very difficult to see how Sen. Clinton would implement any of the changes necessary.

Yes, we need healthcare - but what is the strategy that Clinton proposes to get it?  And if she runs into problems, how will she adjust?  Given how she has run this campaign I have great doubts that she could get anything done.  This applies to all of the things that need doing, from the economy to the war.

Regardless of one's position on Obama, for or against, it is crystal clear that he has run a visionary campaign.  Meaning, that he sets a strategy, then determines his tactics.  The Clinton campaign, imo, determined their tactics and then devised a strategy.    


I can understand what Bill is saying... (2.67 / 3)
   After all, Hillary Clinton has been campaigning as a Republican. Maybe she's internalized it to the point where she feels the Democrats should change the primary rules while she's at it. Heck, let's start using the elephant for our logo as well.

  It's funny. Hillary Clinton has tried everything -- except, you know, running as a Democrat. Helps explain why she's losing, doesn't it?

  And just think -- if Clinton does manage to finagle the nomination, this is the campaign team she's taking to the general! I don't see how she could possibly lose.

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn


Dems Use Proportional delegate Counts (4.00 / 8)
for a reason. If you want establishment candidates totally dependent on name recognition EVERY TIME use a winner take all system that benefits them in the big states. But if you want a more representative system that values all constituents within states and is looking for new blood that is responsive to the electorate - you have a proportional system.

Hillary tried to front load the primary schedule in order to counter the democratic effects of the proportional system. But it didn't give her enough of what she needed. The problem isn't the system - the problem is you have an establishment candidate that is actually very weak and was not able to put away the new guy. Too bad for her - but in the end Democrats will be the big winners.


This is a good point (0.00 / 0)
John McCain was not the clear choice of Republican primary voters.

Prior to February 12th he scored 50% of votes only in Connecticut, New Jersey and New York. His margin of victory was 5% or less in New Hampshire, South Carolina, Florida, Missouri, Oklahoma and Washington, whilst he had lost 18 out of 32 contests where results were released.

That's not an overwhelming victory, it's just that the system is stacked against insurgent candidates.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
Yep. Not a hard concept. Really... not that hard. (4.00 / 1)
A-and remember, after Super Tuesday, when the media kept saying Clinton won because she won California, which is a really neat, shiny big state? And it took them like 5 days to figure out that Obama had actually done incredibly well on Super Tuesday?

And then, everyone decided Clinton got to stay in the race after "winning" Texas by a couple points? But if she'd lost by a couple she might've had to quit?

And in the last couple of days I've heard both Mark Shields and the Philadelphia mayor guy both say that - being very practical people - they regarded a win as a win in PA, no matter the margin. Even the statewide winner doesn't actually win anything for being the statewide winner!

Yeah. That was stupid.


This makes me crazy... (4.00 / 1)
You know, I can't talk to Hillary supporters about this kind of stuff, I don't know if it's because they don't want to believe it (which I understand, because no one likes losing) or because they refuse to hear anything negative.

The primary is not over, and it won't be until one candidate gets the magic number of delegates, or if one candidate concedes to the other. However, all signs point to an Obama victory, and no signs point to a Clinton one. I'm afraid that the Clintons (read: Carville, Penn et al) will try to find a way to ruin Obama's chances in November against McSame.



And I'm afraid that the disingenuous arguments (4.00 / 1)
won't go away. I'm having nightmares about goalposts being moved, apples and oranges being juggled, kids sticking their fingers in the ears, chanting "I can't hear you! I can't hear you!"

[ Parent ]
Yes, but (4.00 / 1)
Chris, you make a good point, but if this were basketball, I think Obama would have the clear advantage.  Did you see the piece on HBO's Real Sports?  No offense to Hillary, but I think Obama would win that basketball game.

John McCain <3 lobbyists

Small ball vs. Home run ball (4.00 / 5)

Obama's people put together a game plan to win over 9 innings with singles, doubles and triples.

Hillary's people tried to swing for the fences and put the game out of reach early.

Unfortunately for Hillary, the stadium was much bigger than she realized.  


Hillary should have run as a Republican (0.00 / 0)
After threatening to nuke Iran on Countdown right now, and defending her Osama bin Laden ad and lecturing that Democrats better damn well be worried about McCain and National Security, she sounded like one!

hate to say it (4.00 / 1)
It certainly is getting harder to argue that she isn't a Neo-Con, at any rate.


[ Parent ]
hate to say I told you so.... (0.00 / 0)
This is the * MINDSET * we need to get away from.  No way do we want * another * trigger mouth neocon like her on the World Stage.  She's bad news for this country.

Also, wondering why she went on KO?  Maybe it was to give the finger to the MoveOn crowd... and Hail to AIPAC.


[ Parent ]
Will the last one to leave the DLC (4.00 / 2)
...turn out the lights?

On twitter: @BobBrigham

AMEN (0.00 / 0)
and Amen and Amen ...

finally it will be ok to be democrat again!


[ Parent ]
Yay for the Electoral College (0.00 / 0)
its like butter, we should use it for everything!

I love the Clinton; if I we're worried that they had a chance I wouldn't be able to enjoy this, but day by day they just sweeten the pot for the day of concession.

When Hillary and Bill finally have to eat their lousy words and snobbish entitlement and finally endorse Obama these words will ring out across the land: Best. Concession. Moment. EVER!

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


I think some people are missing Chris's point: (0.00 / 0)
the point is that Hillary was unsuccessful in a) evaluating the set of rules and guidelines for the game and b) concocting a winning strategy based off of those rules.  

We're talking about a failure of judgement.  To strain the football analogy further:

You don't win in football by choosing an inappropriate play, even if it IS a clever/previously effective play--you win by choosing the right play for the situation.

To be fair, it's impossible to say what this would mean in the GE, because the situations are like apples and oranges.  However, the fact that, despite the campaign's familiarity with how the system works (Bill's knowledge of election trivia, anyone?) they still misjudged the situation and chose an inappropriate strategy--means that there is likely a flaw in strategic thinking in the Clinton campaign.


BTW, what's up with the (0.00 / 0)
"shame on the CNA" ads on this website?  I went to the advertised site, and it was all rambling about how the CNA did something something to squash unions for healthcare workers--but no one seems to be able to offer a motivation for why, and the whole thing feels very one sided, like some information is being left out.

don't pay it no never mind (0.00 / 0)
http://adblockplus.org

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
Shorter Clinton... (0.00 / 0)
If we had some ham, we could have ham and eggs, if we had some eggs.

I don't think the factual claim washes, except under very specific defintions of "under the Republican system" (0.00 / 0)
When I do a quick and dirty count of the events held thus far, and make the (to me, reasonable) assumptions that
 a.  We will count all events as "winner-take-all"
 b.  We will handle the oddity of the Texas contest by awarding 126 delegates to the winner of the primary, and 67 to the winner of the caucus
 c.  We continue to leave MI and FL in limbo, due to the timing of their primaries
 d.  We eliminate super delegates

I come to 1335 delegates to date awarded to Clinton, and 1349 to Obama.

While Bill (and all of the commenters trying to make points about the superiority of proportional delegate allocation) seem to me to be implying that the "winner-take-all" aspect of Republican rules is what makes the difference - I think the only way you can get Clinton's 300 delegate lead requires something like

a.  All events are winner take all
b.  Florida and Michigan have the penalty assigned by the RNC (i.e., their delegations cut in half).  This adds 184 delegates to Clinton's total from above - putting her in the lead by about 170 delegates.
c.  Something more must be done - perhaps a) eliminating the Texas caucus (swinging 67 votes from Obama to Clinton, so a net gain of 134) - perhaps eliminating any penalty for the Florida and Michigan delegations - perhaps counting the Pennsylvania primary before any votes are cast - etc.

There may be other combinations of rule interpretations that can get to a 300 vote margin for Clinton - but to do that does not mainly depend upon the way in which delegates are selected - but on a number of other issues which are either pretty contentious (a resolution to the MI/FL situation) or involve substantial other changes to the events (like eliminating the TX caucus) or allocating delegates before they are actually selected.
 


Mayby by Republican system... (0.00 / 0)
Or maybe Bill just meant that the Supreme Court would step in and give Hillary enough delegates to win the nomination?

[ Parent ]
Baseball?? (0.00 / 0)
The thing is, he can say that he's all for playing basketball (repub-style primaries), but it skirts the real issue: they weren't prepared to play football OR basketball. They thought HRC was going to walk with the nomination. They thought they'd be playing some other game, let's call it "baseball." They didn't have a strategy beyond February 5th. They had a strategy that relied on showing enough strength until everyone else dropped out and bowed down to the inevitability of an HRC win. Iowa kinda fucked that plan up, and they've been scrambling ever since, trying figure out how to play football.

Saying that this system doesn't parallel the electoral college system is fine, point taken. But I don't think there's a compelling argument to be made that our primary system should be like that. Bill's certainly not making it (a compelling argument, that is).  If someone wants to demonstrate some causality between one's ability to win a democratic nomination based on an electoral-college style system and winning the general election against a republican, knock yourself out. And a good argument would include demonstrating that other methods don't do the job as well. Until that point, a simplistic assumption that mapping one process onto the other is better able to predict or determine a win (or even to bring about the "strongest" candidate) just doesn't carry much weight.

Finally, I'm thoroughly swayed by Chris's larger point: Obama outplayed Clinton. Period. The rules as such were stacked for or against neither candidate. Because Obama spent so much time training and working on his strategy and game plan (to stick with the sports metaphor), he's been playing a much better game of football. What better reason to vote for the guy? He looked at the game, got in shape, came up with a way to win, executed the plan, and took down the favorite....against all odds. This taps into the basic David-Goliath mythology that is at the root of so much that is "America." As a nation we LOVE this shit. From Rocky to the Bad News Bears to Doug Flutie's "hail mary" pass.....it's as American as apple pie. We should be celebrating this; instead, we're hearing, from within our ranks, about lapel pins, pastors, neighbors, bitterness. Let's start talking about the remarkable campaign he's run and ask how we can help him do the same against McCain.


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