Obama On Fox Tomorrow--Who's Outfoxing Who???

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 18:29


For a very long time now, I've been extremely skeptical of Barack Obama as a progressive leader--except in the early 20th-Century meaning of the word "progressive," as I wrote some time back.  The problem I had was simple: since 2006, I've been looking forward to 2008 as a high-potential realigning election, characterized by a sea-change in politics, which necessarily means a wholesale rejection of the conservative Republican worldview.

It's not just that realigning elections require such an overthrow.  They don't, necessarily.  But the last 40 years has been an eerie twilight era, in which a substantial majority of people have been center-left on a substantial majority of the issues, but the elected leadeship--and the predominant political discourse--has been just the opposite.

I've looked at this disconnect in terms of Gramsci's concept of hegemony--an acculturated understanding of the world determined by those who control the dominant instutions of society.  I like to refer to it as "ideology in drag as common sense."  A similar hegemony prevailed in the 1920s, before first the Great Depression and then the New Deal washed it utterly away.  Something similar was needed now, I believed--and was possible, given the collosal failures of the Bush regime--failures on a scale not seen since Herbert Hoover's presidency.

But instead of any of this, Barck Obama offered an eager embrace of the very Versailles media that stood as one of the key enforcers of this decrepit status quo.  People gave all sorts of explanations and justifications for this, but everything offered seemed utterly inadequate or beside the point.  Obama might be modestly, or even solidly liberal, but he was no progressive leader.  And what's worse, he could not even be a successful modestly liberal president, so long as he continued to identify with and echo the hollow shiboleths of Versailles media.

I put this argument out various different times, and got a wide variety of responses, none of them, generally anywhere close to a satisfactory answer--because, it seemed to me, virtually no Obama defender or apologist really understood the problem.  There was, I thought, one possible way out, though I never offered it myself.  I was waiting for Obama's supporters to offer it.  They never did.  And so now, circumstances have forced me to name it myself, because--for a moment, at least, it appeared altogether possible that Obama himself was about to take that way out: choosing his own way, time and place to break with that Versailles media consensus, doing so in such a way that the consensus itself is sufficiently shattered to give him vastly more room in which to manuever.  

Paul Rosenberg :: Obama On Fox Tomorrow--Who's Outfoxing Who???
Now, I'm not saying that this is what will happen when Obama goes on Fox.  The Fox preview spin is that he does nothing of the sort.  But there was at least some possibility--as an Obama staffer tried to spin TPM.

The essential point here is that Fox News is not all that different from anyone else when it comes to the avalanche of baseless frivolous accusations hurled at Obama in recent weeks--ones that perfectly reflect Glenn Greenwald's observations in Great American Hypocrites about how all Democratic politicians are attacked.  But Fox News is different when it comes to the extremity of its self-indulgence.  Face it, if Chris Matthews were on  Fox News, he'd be stuck on the nigh shift... forever.

This is why Obama could--potentially--go on Fox News, and counterattack the very essence of the Versaille narratives deployed against him, and yet gain a fair amount of Versailles support, because his supporters could act as if he's only attacking Fox News, and not their own identical behavior.  After all, the time has long since passed when the Versailles narrative should have flipped.  If nothing else, Katrina should have done it.  There should have been the recognition then that this "President" is as dangerous to America as Nero was to Rome.  The problem holding people back is fear--fear, and humiliation.  For to admit that Bush's America is all a house of cards is to admit two things for the Versailles media: first, to admit that they had a hand in it, and second, even worse, to admit that they, too, were conned.

This can be seen quite clearly in the mass denial of the New York Times story about the Pentagon's infiltration of all the major news outlets--including the Times itself.  It is simply unthinkable, and unacceptable to face the fact, not just that one has conned others out of their very being as Americans, but that one has been conned, and, indeed, been a willing and eager participant in conning oneself.

By going on Fox News, and challenging them, and them alone, Obama could break out of this deadlock of humiliation.  He could open the door for others in the media to embrace him and reject Fox--recalling, for example, his success in disarming most conservatives with his speech on race.  In doing so, of course, Obama would be facilitating the same sort of willing self-deception that got the Versailles media into this fix in the first place.  Only the direction of their willing self-decption would have changed.

But, then, that's the way it was in the Emperor's New Clothes, now wasn't it?

We'll know soon enough if this is how it all plays out.  But I just wanted to go on record ahead of time--for all those who still believe in Obama as a bold, visionary leader, and a shrewd tactician, to boot--this is what he could have done by going on Fox News at this time.


Tags: , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
unfortunately this blog's software (0.00 / 0)
doesn't recognize proper dashes, so for reading clarity perhaps you could use two hyphens to set off your appositives.

Done! (0.00 / 0)
I usually try to do that.  But having been in a hell dimension most of this week--and especially since yesterday morning--just getting them darn thing up took priority over everything else.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
helps so much! n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
for a browser-proof proper dash (0.00 / 0)
use html: —

example:

this — is a proper dash

this — is a proper dash


i'm glad you asked

[ Parent ]
And before the fact (4.00 / 2)
I want to state that refusing to go on Fox for so long was a a bold progressive move but that I am quite aware he is in the midst of strong campaign turbulences right now and I doubt he wants to make further waves.
Neither Hillary nor Obama - not even Edwards (as his Senate record proves) - were and are genuine progressive leaders anyway. We all have to deal with that fact and move on and push them in the right direction as hard and often as we can.

Missing My Point--AGAIN! (4.00 / 7)
This is so utterly typical of the Obama Defense.

What it entirely misses is that (a) there's an historical moment here much larger than any of the candidates, (b) Obama is actually diminishing himself by calculating in terms of other candidates, rather than orienting himself toward the historical moment, and (c) it's not a choice about being progressive, or liberal, or any other bogey-man term, it's a choice about being effective on the scale that's needed at this historical moment.

Sure, it's a turbulent point in the campaign.  But Clinton has virtually no shot at winning it, and indeed her best shot right now is to make Obama look less electable.  So by disregarding her and orienting himself more powerfully toward the general election, he actually helps himself significantly on both fronts.  And by splitting the media now--leaving Fox by itself as the far smaller piece--he swipes the agenda-setting moment away from John McCain, who's been taking advantage of the ongoing Dem campaign the last two weeks or so.

My point here is that Obama repeatedly demonstrtes a lack of stragetic vision and tactical finese, not just a lack of progressive vision.  And I think we're about to see that played out once again.  I want to see people learn this lesson, not because I want to rub Obama's nose in it, but because if enough people come to see what he's failing to do, they may be able to bring pressure on him to get him to change, to a much more potentially powerful, truly pro-active approach.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Strategery (0.00 / 0)
There is more than one possible strategy. Just because he is not following the particular strategy you prefer does not mean that he has a lack of strategic vision. His strategy is different from yours (and mine!), but he has a vision.  

[ Parent ]
What A Vision! (2.67 / 3)
Wallace said the interview touched on topics ranging from his struggles attracting working-class voters to his criticism of John McCain to the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr., Obama's controversial former pastor.
...
Wallace said that if Obama had won Pennsylvania he may not have accepted the FOX News Sunday invitation. But he said that once Obama met him for the interview, the Illinois senator was "friendly" and discussed several moderate-to-Republican viewpoints, making an apparent effort to broaden his appeal.

"*He made it very clear he was not some left ... liberal and he had been mischaracterized as such*," Wallace said. "I think this was an effort to sort of restore or regain the brand that he had some months ago, when he was saying there wasn't a Republican solution, or a Democratic solution. It was a new politics and it needed to be a coalition."

Obama: Republican Lite.

Face it he is going on Fox to suck up to Republican voters just like he did in his Pennsylvania concession speech.

In addition he is showing he can't fight mano y mano:

Clinton challenged him again Saturday in Indiana, saying the two should meet for a one-on-one debate without moderators, Lincoln-Douglas-style.
...
Speaking in South Bend, Ind., Clinton taunted him a little, then proposed a compromise.

"You know, after the last debate in Philadelphia, Senator Obama's supporters complained a little bit about the tough questions. And you know, tough questions in the debate are nothing compared to the tough questions you get asked when you're president and you have to answer them to make tough decisions," she said.

"So here's my proposal: I'm offering Senator Obama the chance to debate me one-on-one, no moderators. Just the two of us, going for 90 minutes, asking and answering questions. We'll set whatever rules seem fair."

Wow! No Mods. One on One. Fair rules. And he runs. What will McCain do to this guy?

http://elections.foxnews.com/2...


[ Parent ]
Wow, what an indictment! (4.00 / 5)
"He discussed moderate-to-republican viewpoints."  First of all, we should take this with a shaker-full of salt considering it came from Wilson.  Let's wait and see what the interview is like.  Also, this could mean any number of things -- from, 'he endorsed charter school funding' to 'he said some people say we should promote charter schools.'  

But even if he tried to appeal to conservatives with his rhetoric, would that necessarily be a problem?  This is often how he works, rhetorically -- he dresses progressive platforms up in ways that make conservatives (and progressives) perk up their ears.  He talks about the importance of parenting before he makes the case for investing in early childhood public education.  He says that poverty can't be solved by government action alone right before he makes the case for government action.  In general, he refuses to buy into the either/or frames that the GOP has pushed for so long -- frames that make progressive policy initiatives seem wrongheaded to many people.    

And yes, I'm looking forward to him eviscerating McCain in the fall debates.    


[ Parent ]
It IS An Indictment (3.50 / 8)
And that fact that you can't see that speaks volumes.

He goes on Fox to validate Fox.

What more could Fox possibly want?

And he destroys anti-Fox solidarity among Dems.

Pure gravy for Fox!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Troll Rating Someone Just Because You Disagree Is Just Another Way of Saying (4.00 / 2)
"I got nothin'."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Prejudge (0.00 / 0)
He goes on Fox to validate Fox.

How did you come to that conclusion before seeing the interview?


[ Parent ]
Seriously ? (0.00 / 0)
Are you seriously attacking OBAMA for his coziness to Fox ?
Seriously ? Of the two remaining candidates, you feel OBAMA is the one who has been sucking up to Fox ?
The joke never ends

[ Parent ]
So Two Wrongs Make A Right (0.00 / 0)
Say, wasn't that how we got into Iraq in the first place?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
No (4.00 / 2)
I dont get the Iraq comparison at all.

In any case.
I dont like Obama going on Fox. I would rather he had not.
But you cannot be seriously arguing that the fact he is doing an interview with them after boycotting them for months is the same "wrong" as the long list of Hillary surrogate calling Fox "the fairest network" and so on.
Come on now.

Why the bile ? I really don't get it. You guys are ANGRY today.


[ Parent ]
No Bile (4.00 / 1)
I get that folks can misread tone fairly easily online.  So let me assure you that if there was bile, you'd know it.  This is just plain old rejection of lame, warmed-over arguments we've all heard a hundred times before.

What you're hearing from me, at least, is annoyance that once again my attempts to add something a little bit new have drawn such a blank from the true believers.  And I express that annoyance via snark, since I find that preferrable to following the lead of others and repeating lengthy, serious arguments that I've made a dozen times before to no avail.

There is also, I think, a more general frustration shared by others that Obama and his supporters are simply repeating the same mistakes they've made before over and over and over again.  Which leads us all to the Memphis Blues Again:

And here I sit so patiently,
Waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of
Going through all these things twice.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Nope (0.00 / 0)
Criticizing him for making moderate-to-Republican viewpoints and running from both the Liberal label and running from a mano y mano debate with Clinton. You only run from that you cannot win.

Personally I don't care that he is going on Fox. It is what he is saying on fox and what he says everywhere that bothers me. I don't like Republican-Lite and he is that.

Heck if any member of congress was saying what he does about hugging Republicans and running from the Liberal label you and everyone else would be calling for their head. But kool-aide boy gets a pass from you. It doesn't wash.


[ Parent ]
"Republican Lite" (0.00 / 0)
Sort of like FDR was "Republican Lite" in the 1932 presidential campaign. Look, if Obama is the nominee, his job will be to persuade people who might not have voted for him to do so. The idea of persuasion always pisses off the zealots no matter who they are, but of course zealots thrive on being pissed off.

[ Parent ]
Oh god. (4.00 / 3)
If you had not felt the need to insult us with your first line, I would tell you I understand and largely share your points, although I would argue he has been pretty good at the strategic vision of the campaign (see how he got his lead in delegates) but I tend to agree on the tactical finesse thing for sure and on the idea his strategy for long-term progressive goals is also lacking (while I am not for the mandate, his using it as a talking point is a my biggest gripe with his campaign so far)

Your first line was out of line though. Why attack when we can just disagree and exchange ideas ? This is very much unhelpful.


[ Parent ]
Look At What I Was Responding To, Please (4.00 / 2)
As with Jeremiah Wright, I think you need to look at the full context.

One thing I am continually struck by is how Obama supporters often get livid with my for using a larger yardstick to measure him than they do.  He talks about transformational change, and I take him at his word, and this makes me the bad guy... how, exactly?

Please note, that I have elsewhere offered my own suggestions about what he might do, so I'm not just being purely negative here.  In fact, I am doing the same thing again here--making a suggestion for bold leadership, in order to break out of his own inadvertantly (one hopes) constructed limitations.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You're missing the point: (4.00 / 1)
the point is that you are being patronizing towards "Obama supporters."  This is unnecessary.  As the poster said, we should simply be debating the merits of the arguments, without having a conversation about the relative simple-mindedness of "Obama supporters."  

[ Parent ]
He isn't being patronizing ... (4.00 / 2)
he is saying Obama should be helping move the Overton window(if I am understanding it right) .. and Obama at this stage ... is not helping move the Overton window

[ Parent ]
That is a fine argument to make. (0.00 / 0)
It's the throw-away Obama-supporter bashing that I'm taking issue with.  

[ Parent ]
Snark Isn't Bashing (0.00 / 0)
first off all.

But more to the point, what I'm attacking here is knee-jerk responses that don't address my arguments.  When you offer me pre-fab ideas, I offer you snark in return.

But that's the same deal I offer everyone.  There's nothing special about Obama supporters in that regard.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Their definitions are the problem (4.00 / 4)
bashing, for example, is anything that's not absolute agreement or anything that doesn't make them feel good even when they are wrong. See, you can't merely joke with them to point out they are wrong, you must tiptoe around their feelings. We are the Oprah generation.  

[ Parent ]
Touche! (0.00 / 0)
I got's too much Merry Prankster, too much Lenny Bruce, too much Richard Prior in mys blood for all that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
exactly (4.00 / 1)
rather than the individual and how it affects him- the question becomes how does this affect the environment in which all must work.

[ Parent ]
How will he do that strategic vision? .. (0.00 / 0)
Do you mean(just as an example) .. him hiring Rick Perlstein  .. so to help Obama reframe the narrative? ... Like the PA debate on ABC .. where neither candidate called out Charlie or Georgie .. meaning .. told both of them that we(meaning he and Hillary) were there to talk about the problems that mattered to the electorate ... and not stupid shit like Bitter-gate and Rev. Wright?  .. name me one DC Democrat who does that? ... very few if any .. also .. why can't Obama have Phil Ochs(old timers should know what I allude to) like balls? .. I saw yesterday .. that he was poo-poo'ing the National Journal labeling him as the most liberal Senator .. why can't candidates for national office embrace being a Democrat?

[ Parent ]
Hope (4.00 / 4)
Did FDR explain what was meant by the New Deal before he was elected, or only after?

since 2006, I've been looking forward to 2008 as a high-potential realigning election, characterized by a sea-change in politics, which necessarily means a wholesale rejection of the conservative Republican worldview

Me, too. But we have to face the reality that Democratic primary voters did not vote on this basis, otherwise a progressive candidate would be remaining. Obama and Clinton know this, too, so it doesn't seem realistic to expect either of them to suddenly start talking in revolutionary terms.

My hope for change is based on the reality that Obama's voters are younger and more progressive than the Old Guard in the Democratic Party. So the very fact of Obama's victory, assuming it happens, puts progressive political pressure on him.


No, he didn't explain the new deal (4.00 / 1)
Because I don't think he or anyone knew what it would be exactly.

He did say in his nomination acceptance that "I pledge you, I pledge myself, to a new deal for the American people."

So he set the groundwork for substantial changes.  Obama needs to at least do that (in a way this is better than making specific policy pledges because it actually widened the scope of what FDR could do).



[ Parent ]
Deals (4.00 / 2)
When FDR used the term "New Deal" in his acceptance speech at the 32 Convention, he was referencing something his audience would have been familiar with, Teddy Roosevelt's reference to his platform as a "Square Deal"  FDR was already absorbing into his coalition the remains of TR's old Bull Moose Party, and the Progressive Republicans such as LaFollette and George Norris who held office on Progressive Party identity, though thought of as Republicans -- and New Deal term was intended largely for their ears -- as a promise to follow at least some of TR's Progressive Programs. "Square Deal" included TR's anti-trust program, the Pure Food and Drug Laws that depended on inspection and regulation, and a general rejection of corruption and machine politics government.  Given that people listening in 1932 would probably remember, or at least have heard about TR who was just 22 years out of office, and who died less than 15 years earlier, the term meant something fairly specific.

Truman tried the same thing, calling his post war programs, the "Fair Deal" -- and in a sense JFK reprised it again with "New Frontier".  

New Deal came to mean much more than any of these others, largely because it got filled in over time with a host of programs that one way or another are still recalled. Be it Social Security or CCC camps, or knowledge that one's grandfather was in WPA, or an appreciation of Lady Justice in the Grand Hall at DOJ (sans drapes) knowing that it was the PWA program that commissioned her, and given the laws, makes it impossible for an AG to remove her -- the New Deal became much more than a political platform, it is part of the culture.  But FDR didn't intend this -- for him in 1932 it was just a reference term that invited his 5th Cousin's supporters into the fold.

Should Obama invent such a term?  I think it could work, and while I am not bound to the term, I like "New Pragmatism"      


[ Parent ]
I have a bone to pick .. (0.00 / 0)
But we have to face the reality that Democratic primary voters did not vote on this basis, otherwise a progressive candidate would be remaining.

What progressive even ran in this race? ... I know Dennis did .. but he barely campaigned .. for the most part .. all we ever get are centrist Democrats ... what will it take for someone like a Feingold(who I even asked to run at a Moveon function in Philly back in 2006) .. or Wellstone to run in the future .. I don't know ... but we need to find someone .. and that someone has to be charismatic .. cause people vote on personalities .. or name recognition  


[ Parent ]
While you have a point (4.00 / 4)
that Obama's base will put pressure on him (although it's unclear what the result or intensity will be), the expansion of his base requires a different approach.

I'm not an expert on public opinion or voting behavior, but it appears to me that Paul is saying that it would be advantageous to the progressive movement for Obama to frame the terms of the election as one of a historical moment for real, substantive changes in the way society is organized.  This is the most conducive strategy to a true realignment.  

Contrast a sweeping vision of change (even if it is just conceptual and thematic rather than a 12 point plan) with how the Clinton campaign views the world.  To Clinton supporters, it is about how good a president Hillary would be.  It is about her, and what she can do.  Once they frame their arguments in that individualistic way, if they gain traction Obama has to do something about it.  

This is where Paul's analysis comes in.  Instead of appealing to the historical moment and offering a vision that transcends the petty arguments that the media and the Clinton campaign offer, he addresses the challenge she is posing on her terms.  Paul is arguing that instead of going on Fox and talking about all those petty issues, he should either not be at all or be denouncing Fox so the mainstream media has cover to alter the narrative.  

But the question is really bigger than that.  It is about a candidate that some choose to regard as a progressive leader, but when given the opportunity to define the parameters of the race on terms that are not only progressive, but would be extremely beneficial to him and his post-inauguration agenda, he has shown a propensity to play it soft, and validate the media narrative indirectly.  

While I have high hopes for an Obama administration, based on campaign and message choices like this and others before it, I think it is safe to say that Obama is not a great progressive savior.  But hey, at least he knows that.  It's about what we can do, remember?  He tells us that all the time.

At the end of the day, while he is not what I would call a progressive leader, Obama is at least a man that is thoughtful, articulate and is ideologically predisposed to our side of the argument.  He's not perfect, but he is a really good start.


[ Parent ]
Expansion of support through QA../...what we can do (0.00 / 0)
...the expansion of his base requires a different approach...
(even if it is just conceptual and thematic rather than a 12 point plan)...

Kinda off topic here, sorry, but i did just note in reviewing Mr. Obama's website and subsequently his nice blueprint for change pdf that it is kinda outdated (and the margins vary!), specifically as noted below.  I only reviewed the first couple pages but i think this kind of document is great and if it is going to be promoted on the front page of his site it should be updated.

Page4:

"The Democratic Party has always made the biggest difference in the lives of the American people when
we've led not by polls, but by principle; not by calculation, but by conviction; when we summoned the entire
nation to a common purpose - a higher purpose. And I run for the presidency because that's the party
America needs us to be right now. I run to offer this country change that we can believe in."

Could say:

The great leaders of America have always made the biggest difference in the lives of the American people when
they have led not by polls, but by principle; not by calculation, but by conviction; when they have summoned the entire nation to a common purpose - a higher purpose. And I run for the presidency because that's the kind of leader
America needs right now. I run to offer this country change that we can believe in.

This would imo be more conducive to increasing his appeal to a larger base.

Page5:

"So thank you for taking the time to read this booklet, which lays out very clearly how I will achieve these goals for the people of Iowa. And if you have any questions or want to get involved or want to offer your ideas about how we can make our policies stronger, I hope you'll visit http://iowa.barackobama.com, call 515-
883-2008 or drop into one of our more than 37 offices across the state."

Needs obvious updates to be more nationally appealing.

I submitted my comments on his site already, sorry again for going off-topic, I think you make good points in your post.


[ Parent ]
What's missing, here: (4.00 / 7)
1) A recognition of the limitations that Obama faces as a progressive black candidate, who is supposedly "having trouble winning amongst conservative white voters," and who has been embroiled in a controversy about his "angry black preacher" and his "1960s terrorist friend."  He's not going to fold when he goes on Fox news (i.e. buy into right-wing frames), but he also isn't going to repeat Bill Clinton's (admirable) performance re: "Road to 9/11."  Re-watch Clinton in that segment and imagine how Obama would read at the local PA Elks club or the DC press club if he were acting the same as Bill.  He just can't be too aggressive -- instead of flipping the Versailles media or exposing this media, were he to go after Wilson, he would simply be providing more fodder for their emerging narrative.

2) A recognition of the power of the corporate media and the static nature of their messaging. Gramsci's analysis cannot be applied directly to the current context, as the mediascape today is fundamentally different than the mode of opinion-formation that existed in early 20th century western Europe.  What you are advocating in terms of a restructuring of the Versailles media-narrative is basically wishful thinking at this point -- what is more realistic is the emergence of a well-funded, effective, progressive television media source, that could push the media to the left over time.  This would constitute an effective move in a war of position.  Obama taking on Fox news at this stage in the campaign would not, for the reasons indicated in point one.  

3) A recognition of the fact that -- as an earlier poster noted -- realignments in American politics are larger than an individual candidate, and that they do not happen primarily because a candidate pushes the envelope in an election campaign, but instead because of the nature of the coalition that forms around them, the durability of that coalition, the size of the majority that their party enjoys when they are elected, and the restructuring of the political landscape that follows upon their election.  In a strange way Clinton is right about Obama -- what he is saying now is "just words."  There is nothing durable about what he does at this stage -- this fact is true, however, not in the way Clinton meant it, but rather insofar as the progressive majority coalition that seems to be emerging around Obama could be shattered at any minute.      


No He Can't! (2.67 / 3)
That's a compelling argument.  It must be, since I've heard it repeated so many countless times by Obama supporters, at least since late 2006.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Very compelling argument. (4.00 / 3)
The snarky ad hominems are really effective in responding to my arguments about the mediascape and the nature of political transformations.  Well done.  

[ Parent ]
Your arguments are silly (4.00 / 2)
Let me address of them alone.

I am a black guy. If he can't be a progressive because he's black- then he's of no use to black people. It's that simple.


[ Parent ]
I said he was a "progressive black candidate..." (0.00 / 0)
the question isn't whether he can or can't be progressive, the question is about strategy w/rt Fox News, at this moment in the campaign.  Of course, if I thought for some reason that he "couldn't be progressive," I wouldn't support him.  

[ Parent ]
Again silly (4.00 / 3)
It depends on a notion that there is some future date that he will spring onto the public as the progressive black candidate. That he's a Trojan Horse. Do you think you are being original here? Your thinking as usual is about you. I've had this conversation with environmental friends, gay friends, etc. This is why the call your thinking projection. Look at what choices he's had to made. Look at the environment in which he plans to govern. Look at the man's own temperment as to how he's shown he handles these situations. None of it agrees with your personal feelings that he will some day, one day become something other than what we can see before us. Were you empirically based in your analysis, this wouldn't even be in doubt.

And, yes, of course, every Democrat who goes on Fox is thinking of short term gains for themselves rather than the damage to all Democrats. What exactly is your point with that? Do you think it answers the concern just because you happen to support this particular candidates or have feelings for him ? I don't think your feelings matter. I don't think my feelings, for that matter, matters. What I do think is important is being hard nose in the reality of who people are. Or, as my mentor always say to me " when people show you who they are, trust it."  


[ Parent ]
Again, I think we are talking past each other... (0.00 / 0)
I don't see Obama as "hiding" his progressive commitment at the moment, so I'm not waiting for him to suddenly morph into Leon Trotsky and lead the revolution when he is elected.  He seems to me to be a pragmatic progressive who is pretty clear-sighted about the possibility that the US might descend rightward (and that we would witness calamitous climate change) if certain reforms aren't made in the near future.  He realizes that these reforms will not happen if the democrats don't win larger majorities in congress, and/or if the majority of republican voters are passionately opposed to him and his agenda.  Hence, his apparently relatively non-antagonistic appearance on Fox, and his apparently "moderate" rhetoric.      

The true test of whether a candidate is more-or-less progressive is whether or not they attack their opponent from the right, or in ways that disable the formation of a progressive majority.  

There should be no doubt at this point in the campaign which candidate is attacking the other from the Right and forestalling the formation of a progressive majority coalition....      


[ Parent ]
logical analysis (3.20 / 5)
There are so many holes logicaly speaking in what you write that it would require writing a really long reply. It's Saturday, and I am not up for arguing will illogical analysis.  To keep it simple of the many issues (and its only one of many) is how you use the negative to prove the positive. "Not X" is true, therefore, Y.  You don't prove "not X." For example, how one can claim going on Fox without enabling the right wing frame by lending it legitimacy.  But certainly for the sake of argumen let's assume you've proven "not x."  Not x doesn't prove y.  Or to put it in clear terms, as definitions go, the whole he's not Right, therefore he's left isn't a definition of progressive and isn't a response to what I wrote.  I don't argue with illogical analysis. I expect you to now attack me for being rude or whatever. I don't care. I just want you to know that you use the outward appearance of reason, but the core has to be based on logic. Your analysis fails on the level of logic. I am, therefore, under interested in continuing this exchange. I can get this sort of discourse offline.  

[ Parent ]
Again, To The Loser Who Is Troll-Rating In Place Of Saying Anything Themselves (0.00 / 0)
Your practice is tantamount to the admission, "I got nothing."

It's self-refuting.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
People who call people losers are the real losers (2.00 / 4)
In life, and in blogs.

[ Parent ]
Your First Comment After 5 Weeks Registered (0.00 / 0)
I think I win some kind of prize for getting you to finally speak up and say something, however inane it may be.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
This is undignified (4.00 / 2)
I am not pleased to see these darts getting thrown back and forth.

They distract attention from the important points and diverging views you are expressing that need to be sorted out.  


[ Parent ]
I won't call him or her loser (4.00 / 2)
but certainly illocical. Since you are fan of talking about real life, in real life their analysis doesn't pass the basic level of logic. I note someone gave me a zero for saying that. I am sorry that you can't handle my pointing out that an argument is illogical, and more to the point- I explained how. The only rudeness was that I said I didn't want to continue the conversation with illogical analysis. I get that sort of behavior offiline. "I support Clintonb ecause she's a woman, and I am a woman." Yes, several of my friends said that. I support Obama because he's black, and you should too, becuase you are black. Or here, the poster whom you are defending is essentially saying implicitly (without saying it becuase he knows he would be stepping in it) that it's okay because its Obama. He never says this. But he also never gives me a logical analysis of his position other than to say "No x" thefore "y." One of the biggest mistakes I think in public discourse is where it became more important to make people feel Oprah good about themselves rather than tell them the truth. The truth is- his assertion was illogical. It's not required and nor should I have to worry about making him or her feel good about it.

[ Parent ]
All Or Nothingism Doesn't Work (0.00 / 0)
Come on, in the real world his being black both imposes constraints and liberates him from some constraints. It's a classic double-edged sword. For instance, he pretty much has to play it cool, because his Republican opponents (Clinton and McCain) would love nothing more than to run against "the angry black man."

On the other hand, at a symbolic level, Obama offers a real break from the past, both the Bush administration and all that Clinton baggage. He is more credible than anyone else when he offers "Change."

Can he be progressive and black? Hell yes. Just by being black he injects a progressive spirit into the country if he gets elected. It would be a truly momentous event to have a black president in America. That, by itself, would open other doors to change.


[ Parent ]
You Ignored My Argument In Making Yours (4.00 / 1)
So why shouldn't I return the favor?

Anyone who's been following the campaign even casually the last 2-3 weeks knows that the media is starting to notice and at times be embarrased by its pro-McCain bias, and its cheap shots at Obama.  The backlash at ABC after their debate was most noticeable example, but hardly the only one.

Now, I'm not an advocate of him going on Fox.  But since he chose to go on at this time, then this would seem to be an excellent strategic reason to do so.  He could revive the close relationships he had previously solicited from most of the media, while facilitating them in putting some distance between themselves and "a few bad apples" (and we all know how much the M$M loves "a few bad apples").

This is not a "best case scenario" argument.  This is a "what's the smartest thing he could do now, given that he's chosen to do something like X" argument.

It is, in a word, sensitive to the swirling dynamics of the moment.

And you're accusing me of clinging to static old geezer Gramsci.

Right!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
If by ignore you mean make a counter-argument, then ok... (4.00 / 1)
I'm not accusing you of clinging to Gramsci, but of misapplying his theory to the contemporary world.  

Just because you see yourself as "sensitive" to the dynamics of the moment, doesn't mean that you are.  I was putting forward an analysis of the moment -- both the immediate moment, and the underlying, structural conditions that give shape to the immediate moment -- that contravened yours.  

Clearly, we don't agree about what the effects of Obama confronting Wallace would be -- we are both speculating here (hopefully, we can agree on that much).  But when I say that I don't agree with your speculative claim because of X, Y, and Z factors that I don't think you adequately address, I am not "ignoring" your argument.  I am challenging it.  

I guess I am just less sanguine about the mediascape than you are.  I don't think that Obama can win "room to maneuver" by attacking Wallace.  I think that the anchors on other COM stations would be strongly encouraged by their bosses to retain the emerging storylines about Obama: He is in hot water and losing his footing/mojo; He is a little bit too radical (notice the red-baiting that has been popping up in the last 3 weeks).... We would be subject to endless loops of the following question: Who is the real Barack Obama? Is he the reserved, thoughtful man who appears on Oprah and The View.  Or is he, beneath it all, an angry left-wing radical who secretly agrees with everything Ayers and Wright say and do, and simply can't say so because -- as Wright says -- he is "a politician, and is speaking to different audiences."

As I hope this little excursus reveals, I'm paying attention to what is going on in the media as well.              


[ Parent ]
How exactly will all of those dynamics (0.00 / 0)
change if he's elected?  

[ Parent ]
Obama doesn't need to make Wallace look like a fool to... (0.00 / 0)
get things done when he is elected.  These are apples and oranges....

This is what I was trying to say above when I talked about how, at this point, what Obama does and says is, truly, "just words."  He hasn't won an election; he doesn't have a mandate; he doesn't have the ability to change the Iraq war policy, appoint a cabinet, give a state of the union address, or any other thing that a president can do.... Moreover, and more importantly, we haven't shown that the coalition that Obama promises to help usher in will actually materialize.  We haven't won a bigger majority in Congress.  We haven't demonstrated that a majority of Americans agree with us that Bush was a disaster and we need to move the country in a fundamentally new, more progressive, direction.  As Bush says: elections have consequences.  We haven't had our election yet.  


[ Parent ]
You didn't answer my question (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
So Showing He's Easily Rolled Helps Him How, Exactly? (4.00 / 2)
Inquring minds want to know.

Clinton tried that already.  They impeached him for his troubles, and damn near drove him from office, if folks hadn't come together and formed MoveOn to stop them.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I addressed this in my first post. (0.00 / 0)
He will not be "rolled."  There is a difference between "being rolled" and "not being aggressive."  The space between these two modes is the space that I think Obama will occupy, to (moderately) positive effect.  

The burden is on you to argue that his appearance on Fox could be a game-changer.    


[ Parent ]
No, The Burden Is On Obama (4.00 / 2)
to explain why he should go on Fox at all if it's not.

My long-standing argument has been that Obama refuses to deliver what's necessary.  He plays kissy-face with the Versailles media, and scorns the progressives who enabled him to get this far in the first place.  I think that speaks volumes about him.  And I think he's once again ready, willing and able to do more of the same.  All I'm saying in this diary is that I could be wrong.  He could have had something up his sleave.

But, interestingly enough, this is cause for all the Obama supporters to attack me as insufficiently reverent.

Sorry, I already established that back in late 2006.  That shipped has not just sailed, it's been around the world 10 or 12 times.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I addressed this below. (0.00 / 0)
I never defended him for going on Fox.  The whole time in this thread, I've been arguing against the premise of your post, that -- were he to take on Fox news -- it would be a game-changer.  

I think he shouldn't be going on Fox news.  I'm not defending his doing so.  However, I also don't think it indicates that he is somehow throwing progressives under the bus.  (He might do so in the interview, in which case I would be pissed... but it hasn't aired yet, so I can't say).  He is making a tactical decision in the midst of a pretty rough primary/general campaign to try and reconfigure, in a small way, the view that Fox viewers have of him.  At least that is my take.  

It might work; it might not.  I don't really know.  But I don't think it will have a huge effect either way.... If anything, it will show that he isn't "cowering."  Which is kind of a silly and more-or-less inconsequential thing to show... And certainly not worth the trade-off of legitimizing Fox news.  

 


[ Parent ]
this is the sort of thing where Obama's intent (4.00 / 2)
doesn't matter. There is the old saying that I think applies- the road to hell can be paved with the best of intentions. He can go on thinking he is doing one thing, and the right will use it for another. That's why some things are per se off limits. Now, if he goes on and used it to attack their frame- that's one thing. But to go on, not saying anything other than his normal appeal, -- well, not so great. That implies Fox is legitimate.

[ Parent ]
Obama Hasn't Scorned Anyone (0.00 / 0)
As for "playing kissy face" with the media, well, he's gotta do what he's gotta do. I detest Fox News as much as anyone, but people watch them. A Democratic nominee or nominee-apparent would be idiotic not to give them an interview.

Unlike you, Paul, I'd care a whole lot more about having a Democrat elected this year than I do about theoretical purity. We're Americans, not the French. For better or for worse, in this country theory takes a back seat to experience. It royally pisses off the academics, often for good reason too. But it keeps 'em on their toes.


[ Parent ]
Going on Fox is just stupid (4.00 / 4)


Antagonizing (4.00 / 5)
Personally as an Obama supporter when I feel insulted like how you insult me in posts like this there is always a part of me that hopes he does the opposite of whatever you want him to do.  Sure it isn't rational, but on a scale of persuasiveness you are about a negative 10.  Why should anyone think you have intelligent positions if they are filled with insults?

That being said it will be interesting to see him going on fox news.  I don't necessarily think this is a good time to do so as he seems to have developed a cautiousness or fearfulness typical of most people savaged by the media in the past few weeks.

Though I think he does a lot better when he is prepared and presumably he will be prepared for this.

The liberal wiki
Send an email to terra@liberalwiki.com


The problem is that you are insulted (4.00 / 4)
because of criticism per se, not because of how or for what the criticism is about. You being Obama supporters as a group, not you personally. For instance, what exactly in your mind makes Obama so special over other Democrats that he's allowed to go on Fox when people have been trying to say that Fox is unfair to all Democrats. Because you think it will be a temporary advantage for Obama? It was a temporary advantage for other Democrats who went on their for their own interest too.  

[ Parent ]
Precisely! (4.00 / 1)
It's a maxim that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

In parallel, extraordinary exceptions require extraordinary justifications.

I've suggested one.  Rather than condemning Obama outright for going on Fox, I've suggested how he might well be justified in doing so, how he could prove all the naysayers wrong.

This is an indication of my own open-mindedness--despite my deep reservations about Obama, I am still willing to be proven wrong, still willing to be pleasantly surprised by him.

When Obama supporters respond by telling me that I'm not being realistic, then they are the ones who lack faith in him, not me!

If you have that little faith in him, then you should simply say that he shouldn't go on Fox at all, in solidarity with all other Dems who now play by those rules.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
They have no faith in values or ideas (4.00 / 1)
If they did, they would be much harsher on him.

[ Parent ]
I never said I thought he should go on Fox.... (0.00 / 0)
look it up.  I didn't think that was what we were arguing about.  

I agree -- he shouldn't go on Fox.  I don't agree, however, with your analysis of what he could do while there to change the dynamics of the race...


[ Parent ]
Yes, But You're Not The Only One Here (0.00 / 0)
And look to what most draws your energy and attention.

Frankly, I think it's highly unlikely that things will ever be as fluid among the media as they are right now, which is why Obama ought to make the most of it, if he goes on Fox.

Don't forget, however much of a pack they are, they are also in competititon with one another.  They can be broken apart.  It's part of the inherent logic of the market system.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Obama's Fox Appearance Is A Sign of Confidence (0.00 / 0)
It's essentially his declaration of victory in the Democratic nomination contest. He's saying, in effect, that the general election campaign has started and in the general election he's going to talk to everyone.

Now, whether this gambit works out for him is another matter. But you can bet that, whoever wins the nomination, they'll be bowing to the gods of Rupert. Whether they want to or not.


[ Parent ]
It's Interesting That You Feel Insulted (4.00 / 1)
It's also interesting how many more Obama supporters respond to feeling insulted, as opposed to responding to the substance of what I say.  They fequently tell me that I would do better if I weren't so insulting, but their own actions seem to send the opposite message.  The only thing they're really interested in doing is telling me off, and pretending otherwise--"If only you were more sensitive!"--is how they preserve their own "sensitive" self-image.

But, truth be told, there's a lot of Obama's policies that aren't all that sensitive to folks on the bottom.  And I'm with Jesus on this one--"Whatsoever you do to the least of these, you do it also to me."

That's where I hope my sensitivities lie, and that's where I worry about falling short.  Not when it comes to critiquing presidential candidates.  They're big boys and girls.  They can take care of themselves.  (Well, at least one would hope.)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
It's the supporters that you are attacking,... (0.00 / 0)
and it is these attacks that we are taking issue with.  By all means, critique Obama from the left -- we will probably defend him sometimes and critique him other times, depending on whether we agree with your critique.  Not all of us will always agree on whether or not what he did was defensible.  We are thinking human beings, not robots.    

You are smart enough to realize that talking about "Obama supporters" doing X is ridiculous.  Are you talking about Chris Bowers when you say "Obama supporters?"  What about my mom, who never posts on open left?  Or the 11 year old girl who spent the last two weeks worth of her afternoons making phone calls for Obama in PA?  Obviously you are not talking about all of these people.  You are talking about a very very small range of supporters (such as myself) that you encounter in online (and possibly sometimes non-virtual) settings.  Probably these people are relatively homogenous, and support Obama primarily for ideological reasons (i.e. we think he is more progressive than Clinton, and therefore support him).  This is not why many people support Obama, and so your arguments about "what Obama supporters say" when you criticize Obama for not being progressive enough are fallacious (you are substituting a part for a whole).  It would be less of an overgeneralizing attack if you criticized the "obama fans on open left, such as seabrook..."  It wouldn't, however, be any more relevant to your argument about Obama and progressive strategy....

Incidentally, if my initial response to your post was not a substantive response, then I don't know what a substantive response would look like.    


[ Parent ]
I still have hope (4.00 / 4)
that Obama will be a progressive leader, but I wouldn't put it at better than 20-1 odds. I suspect he has the knowledge and the vision but I doubt he has the courage. He's been shifting to the center for years, seemingly in response to his national exposure and ambitions. I understand the points his defenders raise - that he has to get elected and that his race is a serious hindrance to moving leftward on anything - but even if he wins pressures like these are not going to disappear.

If Obama did anything other than eviscerate Wallace, he took another step backward to the right. This would also be an ominous sign for his general election campaign. But I'll wait and see. Regardless, at least with Obama there is some chance of a progressive leader. There's no chance with the DLC candidate.


exactly (4.00 / 1)
they don't get that the same arguments they are making regarding the campaign will be used when he tries to govern.

[ Parent ]
Walking into the middle of the enemy camp (4.00 / 6)
Obama is walking right into the middle of the enemy camp by going on Fox.

Maybe he is going to annoy the heck out of us progressives with more statements about how great Reagan was, how Social Security needs "fixing", which is code for slashing it into smithereens, and how his awful health care plan will solve the health care mess.

What I prefer to believe is that he is shrewd and cunning enough to use it as an opportunity to talk through the conservative mindset that dominates Fox in order to dialog with the folks who listen to Fox clap-trap day in and day out in the hope that a portion of them will vote for him.

For me, the first main challenge is to keep Billary from retaking the White House and the second main challenge is to keep McCain and the Swiftboat machine from snatching victory out of the jaws of defeat that awaits the GOP as things now stand.

By going on Fox and hopefully improving his standing nationwide as judged by electability polls he can address both challenges simultaneously.

I have always disagreed with those who say that Democrats should refuse to go on conservative talk shows. They should take every opportunity to go right into their dens of iniquity and challenge them on every premise and every distortion.

Where Obama stands on the major issues we progressives care about is not worth debating at this point because what we are talking about is strategy and tactics for winning the nomination and the presidency. He is the only shot we have at this point and he is calling the shots from where he sits.

Walking into the middle of the enemy camp seems to me a fine idea, in fact a bold idea and a courageous one at that. He may disappoint us and he may get burned. But it is  far more preferable than watching Billary claw at him day after day because he may succeed in reaching out to audiences of conservative voters with whom he really needs to connect in order to win the presidency.


[ Parent ]
I like this post (0.00 / 0)
Normally I wouldn't say so, but since there's the discussion of Obama supporters' reactions above, you can put one positive vote in.  I actually thought of how George H.W. Bush fought his perception of being a wimp by confronting Dan Rather.  That served him, but also the larger right-wing anti-media movement.

Though I'm not sure how he would get the other media to change "the direction of their willing self-decption."  



New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


Good Question--Obama Would Have To Plant The Seed (4.00 / 7)
To answer the question about how Obama could get the media to change "the direction of their willing self-decption", I don't think that we can count on a silver bullet, but there are some things he could say on Fox to get the ball rolling.

One would be to attack them for their longstanding smears of him. For example, he might say:

"You know, once this gets beyond a certain point, everyone thinks it's part of the campaign, and they have to talk about it.  I question that assumption, but I understand it.  But at Fox, you're different.  At Fox, you take it upon yourselves to repeat the smears over and over and over again, until other people decide to start covering them too.  You are what's known on the streets and playgrounds where I've worked as an "instigator."  And what you instigate is not just bad for America, it can be downright deadly.  And I think that others who have been influenced by you in the past, who have been drawn into competing with you on your terms have started to realize where this is all leading, and they're starting to rethink.  You ought to rethink as well, because America doesn't want to go down that road anymore.  America wants a new direction, and regardless of whether I'm the candidate or not, I am devoting myself to help find that direction.

That's just off the top of my head, but you get the drift.  A lot of it is stuff he's already saying, but there are a few important dots that he's not connecting yet.  And those could prove to be very important ones in determining what sort of future we have.

Note that this would set him up for further discussions with other media outlets, where he could press them to change as well, but from a position of much greater sympathy and respect for them.  He could even say things like, "Look, I understand why you feel you had to ask those questions.  But what about the other questions you weren't asking?  Questions that millions of ordinary American voters are asking, and want to hear more about."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
If he were to do as Paul (0.00 / 0)
discribes this would be a solution, but apaprently he's not doing what Paul describes. The discussion above represents the problem as I see it- namely no one is placing any criteria on his actions or benchmarks for what goals they want from him outside of getting Obama elected. Getting him elected is the means, not the ends. The ends is progressive values.

[ Parent ]
I'm sure Plouffe and Obama undertook this same analysis: (0.00 / 0)
I've looked at this disconnect in terms of Gramsci's concept of hegemony--an acculturated understanding of the world determined by those who control the dominant instutions of society.  I like to refer to it as "ideology in drag as common sense."  A similar hegemony prevailed in the 1920s, before first the Great Depression and then the New Deal washed it utterly away.  Something similar was needed now, I believed--and was possible, given the collosal failures of the Bush regime--failures on a scale not seen since Herbert Hoover's presidency.

when Obama decided to go on Fox. What better way to

counterattack the very essence of the Versaille narratives deployed against him

In fact I can almost hear Plouffe uttering those very words.

Or maybe he thought it was a chance to reach a segment of the population whose support he has struggled to get. Nah.

John McCain doesn't care about Vets.



Paul this is a terrible diary (0.00 / 0)
You are way better than this...really!
Oye!

What's So Terrible About Admitting I May Have Been Wrong? (0.00 / 0)
My long-standing view has been that Obama wants to be the Democratic John McCain, much more than he wants to do anything to piss off the media elites--which is what real change would inevitably do, sooner or later.

In this diary, I'm saying, in effect, "Maybe I was wrong.  Maybe he saw this break as inevitable, but was waiting for an openinng that would give him a shot at turning the media elites toward a realignment as well. And this could be just that moment."

It's really wierd, getting attacked by all these Obama supporters who are arguing, in effect, "No Paul, you were not wrong!"

As Joan Baez would say, "it is very very weird, indeed."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Not a fox viewer so... (0.00 / 0)
when is this on?

QT

Visit the Obama Project


WindOnWater.net




Interview is on at 2:00PM EST (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Wow!! (0.00 / 0)
There's a book you need to read Mr. Rosenberg!!

The Elements of Style, Strunk and White

I am no troll, but reading this easy was painful.

I know your heart is true.

m


lol (0.00 / 0)
...and then in my excitement I misspell essay!!!  

[ Parent ]
I've Read Strunk and White (4.00 / 2)
And I've read Walt Whitman.

I like them both.

But I like Whitman more.

A whole lot more.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
You know what they say about opinions... (4.00 / 1)
I put this argument out various different times, and got a wide variety of responses, none of them, generally anywhere close to a satisfactory answer--because, it seemed to me, virtually no Obama defender or apologist really understood the problem.  There was, I thought, one possible way out, though I never offered it myself.  I was waiting for Obama's supporters to offer it.  They never did.  And so now, circumstances have forced me to name it myself...

I feel that this is an inefficient if not arrogant way to communicate.  So you, the all-knowing, have been giving us a flash of the carrot, but we never took it, so now you need to get your stick out?  I really don't understand the logic behind operating this way.

...for a moment, at least, it appeared altogether possible that Obama himself was about to take that way out: choosing his own way, time and place to break with that Versailles media consensus...

So you are saying that he should go on faux news and call out the entire media, and you think that would be a good way to get elected?  Do you think he doesn't do it out of fear, or fear of humiliation, or out of the wisdom that comes with experience?

I don't disagree with a lot of your thoughts, although I think they can be hard to parse and that at times are posed with a mindset that everyone has read all of your posts/thoughts/and same books you've read.  What exactly is your definition of "the Versailles media"?  Maybe someone could write a wikipedia entry on it?

We'll know soon enough if this is how it all plays out.  But I just wanted to go on record ahead of time--for all those who still believe in Obama as a bold, visionary leader, and a shrewd tactician, to boot--this is what he could have done by going on Fox News at this time.

This sentence seems contradictory to me, you wanna go on record ahead of time saying that 'this is what he coulda done', but we'll know soon enough if this is how it all plays out?  I respectfully suggest that you could learn something about tact from listening to him speak.


so you have a problem (0.00 / 0)
with calling someone a loser, but apparently not with calling them as ass? Interesting. Says a lot about you and what this is really about for you.

[ Parent ]
No i wasn't calling anyone an 'arse' (0.00 / 0)
I apologize if it was interpreted that way, I was trying to make a funny about blogging in general, which i'm new to. What it is about for me is ending preventable human suffering.

[ Parent ]
Paul is right- I was being rude (0.00 / 0)
It's find to disagree and even call people names. Well at least to me, so long as you are consistent, and it's not about a sacred cow. My issues are people with sacred cows.  My sacred cow is honesty and forthrightness and logical analysis. Those are my big ones.

[ Parent ]
Give Him A Chance (4.00 / 1)
He seems to be sort of finding his way.  You and I are veterans. We should cut him some slack.  He's been here 5 weeks, and never commented before.

We shoudn't make him feel too unwelcome. Just uncomfortable enough to keep him talking.  Not so much that he shuts up again.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Better Reading, Please! (4.00 / 3)
I'm glad to see you've decided to join the conversation.  Of course you're entitled to your opinions, whatever they may be. And I can certainly see where you might interpret what I wrote as condescending.

However, I've done a lot of book reviewing in my day, and I'm quite used to the fact that good ideas are quite plentiful, outside of the mainstream media.  Therefore, I do not think myself extraordinary or unusual.  If anything, I take comfort in the fact that there are scads of others just like me.  Looking back, I can see that it probably would have been helpful to say this right up front.  It would have seemed like a distraction had I thouhgt of doing it at the time, but I can see it would have made a difference for some readers, so I should have said something about it.

However, what really gets my goat about your comments is this:

So you are saying that he should go on faux news and call out the entire media, and you think that would be a good way to get elected?

That's exactly not what I am saying, and I was very clear about it.  Rather, I see this as an opportune time for splitting the media, and getting the far larger part to dis-identify with Fox, and disown their past tendencies to emulate them.  Of course it would not be that simple.  Of course there would be backsliding.  Of course it would be messy.  But there's an opening now, in which the seeds for a fundamental shift can possibly be sown.

I'm not talking about turning the media into Democratic Party cheerleaders.  That's not going to happen.  But they could become several orders of magnitude more skeptical of the GOP, and more even-handed towad the Dems.  If this were to happen at the same time that other decentralizing power shifts continue, and even grow stornger, then we will have a much brighter future than now seems possible.  And I think that the only good reason that Obama should even consider going on Faux News is to accomplish the start of such a shift.

You may disagree with this viewpoint, of course.  But please don't misrepresent it.  I'm ambitious, not delusional.

As for the meaning of the Versailles media.  Well, "Versailles" is my term for the metastesized Beltway mentality.  They're the "let them eat cake" crowd.  The folks who delude themselves into thinking they are the country, when they are the most isolated of outsideres.  That's how it was before the French Revolution, and it's how things are today.  Versailles includes all the policians and all their hangers on, down to the most humble Hot Military Stud.  The media subset are the Versailles media.  

Finally, I'm not sure what you find contradictory.  But I wasn't trying to be tactful.  To the contrary, I was trying to be blunt.  So I guess I succeeded on that score, at least.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Reality (0.00 / 0)
I'm not sure why, but you don't seem to have noticed that there are no candidates remaining in the Democratic primary that wish to take on the media as you'd like (and as I'd like). Why are you taking those frustrations out on Obama? The voters have spoken.

[ Parent ]
It's Not A Quesiton Of What I'd Like (0.00 / 0)
It's a question of political survival.  Of necessity.  Particularly given how in love the media is with McSame.

Of course it's entirely possible that Obama is utterly clueless on the subject.  In fact, this is what I've long believed.  In this particular sense, sadly, it's 100% correct to call Obama an elitist.  

The whole point of this diary, however, is that I could be wrong.  It's possible that he could be quite aware of what a Devil's bargain he's struck, and he's been laying in wait for the chance to renogiate it.  If so, this could be the ideal time to strike, because there's signs of cracks in the media consensus, because there's a way to take advantage of those cracks, and because fortune favors the brave.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Still confused (0.00 / 0)
I'm still confused. I'd love to have a candidate that tells the corporate press to go to hell, that calls for the FCC to strip licenses unless they act more reasonably, that forces networks like Fox News to openly label themselves as a Republican network, that calls for a return to the fairness doctrine or something similar, and that calls for the government to break up the media conglomerates and return these businesses to local control.

But there is no such candidate remaining in the Democratic primary. Clinton sat down to have a nice chat with freakin' Richard Mellon Scaife in my home town of Pittsburgh, and Obama is going on Fox News.

It's fine for us to keep complaining about this, but at this point, why are you expecting anything different?


[ Parent ]
I'm NOT Expecting Anything Different (4.00 / 2)
I'm beginning to realize how hard it is for people to get to this, so I'm going to say it three times:

(1)

I don't expect Obama to do anything remarkable on Fox.  I expect to be frustrated and disappointed by his pandering.  I am simply saying, what if I'm wrong? What if he's been laying in wait, aware of the contradictions and the fix he's gotten himself in?  What could that look like, if I've misjudged him?

(2) Get it?  I'm saying, "Hey, if I've been wrong, then look what could happen!"

(3) I'm not a pundit. So I'm not allergic to saying, "I could be wrong." Or even "I was wrong."  So what if my disappointment with Obama has been due to a mis-apprehension.  What if I've misjudged him?  What could he do tomorrow, if he's well aware of the traps I see him getting himself into?

Get it?  I said three times, and said it three  different ways.  I can't make it much clearer than that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
muddle-headed (0.00 / 0)
perhaps I am a bit foggy tonight, but this is the first time I understood what you were trying to get at.

But it does come off as snarky and condescending.  What's wrong with that, you may ask?  Not a lot usually.  I loves me some witty snark.  

But then I start thinking about how this isn't just wonky games and discourse for me.  I am incredibly frightened for my daughter's future.  The thought of her generation being worse off then mine makes me touchy, defensive, and scared shitless (I can understand how faux viewers react to fear so strongly - mine just happens to be based in reality).  

There is so much at stake this election/time period, I really don't think we should mock supporters of either candidate for being really (almost blindly) intense.  We should point it out, of course, and with facts and dialogue try to help them understand the entire picture.

I suppose my sacred cows are respect and compassion.  I am surrounded by faux news devotees where I live so I understand how hard it is to try and make points without name calling and overt disgust.....but with all the problems we have now as a country, it seems tired and stale.

but hey it was an interesting thread Paul :)


[ Parent ]
Here's the thing for me (4.00 / 1)
If people were as concerned as they say about the issues that will affect not just now but also the future, they would do more to hold the candidates' feet to the fire.

I am not referring to you specifically. It's just your post reminded me of this point. People say all the time "these are serious issues or serous times" and yet, in their actions, in how they gloss over candidate's weaknesses, in how they choose to vote, etc- they treat them as one poster said over at TalkLeft like American Idol. It's about who charms them. They aren't skeptical enough. I am very skeptical of everyone. I think that's my job as an American voter. To be skeptical. To not believe. To require that they prove everything they say to me. To make them sweat for it. Others seem to take the view that if they feel like a leader they are. I take the view- prove it. That's how I think your daughters life will be better and that of my nephew and hopefully of the children I one day hope to have.


[ Parent ]
I agree with you (4.00 / 3)
we need to hold each candidate accountable....but that is actually why I like Obama better because with the grassroot organizing and activism I have personally seen in his campaign (ie bottom-up) there is much more potential for people to hold his feet to the fire and demand more.  His organizing of his supporters to talk with each other and reach out to their communities - to become activists - is not only smart and effective, but also encourages dissent and organizing a strong voice for him to listen too.  

If Obama can't prove he is a leader then there will be some organized folks demanding answers.  So far I think he has shown leadership in getting more delegates, his speech on race, and yes even his motivational skills.

I understand you are frustrated with people being charmed, fuck I am skeptical as hell myself, but why assume everyone is "american idol" vapid.....especially at Open left? Even though the media ignores it, there actually is some substance to make a decision and support a candidate.  After that, the urgency does make it intense.


[ Parent ]
agreed (0.00 / 0)
well said, sisterfish.  i see the creation of activists that's the core of the Obama campaign's potential transformative power.  

[ Parent ]
Because its easier to remain skeptical until they prove it (4.00 / 1)
rather than become certain merely because they promise it. So far he's all talk. His Senate record isn't all that appealing. His state Senate regard is equally unimpressive. I am not sure what's convince many of you to support him other than he's the anti-Clinton. I don't see much difference between Obama and Clinton other than he lacks her baggage. Certainly, going on Fox or his many other misteps have done nothing to allay my concerns. He will have to prove himself to me. Period. No more talk. No more believing without proof. It's really that simple.

[ Parent ]
Not Snarky At All, sisterfish (0.00 / 0)
In fact, the whole dialogue you had with bruhrabbit in response to your post is perfectly in tune with the point of my diary.  I deeply believe that we not only need deep, dramatic, New Deal-scope change, but that the political moment is ripe for it--something I have not felt in decades of political activism.

But Barack Obama seems fanatically dedicated to compromise and incrimentalism--the exact opposite of what the moment calls for.  Hence, I keep on thinking about how we might "get what we need" even if we "can't always get what we want."  And yes, that phraseology may be a bit snarky, but the underlying point is not.  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I am also frightened for my (0.00 / 0)
children's future.

That's why I don't think we can afford another "go along to get along" Democrat in the White House. Unfortunately it looks like that's exactly what we're headed for.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Thank you for your respectful discourse (0.00 / 0)
I see this as an opportune time for splitting the media

I'm not sure we can or should rely on Mr. Obama to split the media in this one interview, nor that the media is very interested in being split.  I think they are more interested in keeping this up as long as possible, right through to the general, so that they make as much money as possible.  I certainly wouldn't complain if the networks starting attacking each other though over their (dis?:)respective failures to report facts and issues that are important.

And I think that the only good reason that Obama should even consider going on Faux News is to accomplish the start of such a shift.

I think Mr. Obama might have additional reasons, but of course i would be digressing into specualtion.  Maybe he is attempting to 'know the enemy', and respect the enemy (or at least the enemy's reach and resources, i don't really like the word enemy though, how about competition?:).  In my experience it is wise to respect your opponent no matter how much more 'right' or 'better' you feel your positions are/game is.

I wasn't trying to be tactful.  To the contrary, I was trying to be blunt.

And that you are! :P  I was just saying that you may be judging the interview before anyone's seen it.  Maybe i'm missing some info here though, wouldn't be the first time!

And thank you for your elaboration on your definition of the versailles media.


[ Parent ]
No one is expecting things to change in one interview (0.00 / 0)
it's a deeper question of a pattern. It's not just Obama by the way. This is a criticism of Democrats in general.

[ Parent ]
And Obama is only getting picked on .. (0.00 / 0)
because he's gonna be the Presidential nominee!!

[ Parent ]
Actually, Paul is. nt. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Unfortunately I'm Fading Fast (0.00 / 0)
I've been up, more or less, since 2:30 this morning (West Coast time), and I find myself too unfocused to give you the reply you deserve. So I promise to follow up tomorrow.

One thing I can say, however, is that I was not trying to prognosticate.  The premise was not "this is what he's going to say."  It was "If I've misjudged him, what could he say or do that would be genuinely game-changing?"  It was about rethinking some of my assumptions about Obama, trying to imagine what that would look like.

More tomorrow.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Okay, Now Where Was I... (0.00 / 0)
To pick up where I left off last night....

(1) I'm not expecting that Obama could "split the media in this one interview."  I am, however, pointing out that the potential exists to begin this process with a bang, and that it would be highly advantageous--if not utterly necessary--to do so.

(2) "nor that the media is very interested in being split."  Fuck what they're interested in.  You pick your shots, and aim to change the landscape, so that they end up doing what we're interested in. It's not about asking "pretty please."  They can either all compete in trying to be more alike, or they can compete in trying take different approaches.  Alter the landscape in the right way, and we'll get more of the latter, and it will open up more space for us.  Let the vast majority gain some advantage from consistently dissing Fox News, and that could happen, not because we want it, but because that potential is always there in a capitalist marketplace.

(3) How does going on Fox help him to "know the enemy"?  This makes absolutely no sense to me.

(4) Worse yet is your talk about respect.  The fact is, rightwing leadership routinely disrespects the people it leads.  I am all for reaching out to people on the individual, grassroots level.  There is abundant evidence that many of these people--sometimes majorities--share our values and policies positions, without even knowing it.  But their leaders constantly deceive them.  By "respecting" their leadership, we only tighten the hold they have.  We need to go around them, not kowtow to them.

Hope this helps.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yes, although ... (4.00 / 3)
I agree with you about the potential for using this appearance on Fox to help transform the dynamic.  Challenging Fox head-on creates the opportunity for at least one major network to set themselves up in opposition -- or, if that doesn't happen for the reasons Seabrook describes in his point #2 [and the vested interest that the networks have in supporting the status quo], provide more ammunition for those working to start progressive alternatives.  I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Unlike you, I've been consistently impressed with Obama's strategic thinking.  One thing I've noticed is that some of the kinds of techniques he employs -- transparency, precise wording to convey nuance and complexity, his campaign's interactions with the online world -- are very different and so hard to evaluate.  However I think you have to take them in the context of the intense racism in the campaign and coverage: Seabrook makes an excellent point that you're underestimating the additional challenges to Obama due both to the "angry black man" stereotype and the racially charged nature of most of the coverage and discussions.  In any case, his strategy's certainly been working effectively so far: he's gone from being an intriguing possibility to the overwhelming favorite for the nomination and the election.

jon

PS: As to why people aren't staying on the subject you want to discuss, when I look at the structure of your essay it seems to me that the topic sentence is "For a very long time now, I've been extremely skeptical of Barack Obama as a progressive leader".  After a couple of paragraphs explaining how this applies to the media, there's then another paragraph that talks about your frustrations with Obama "defenders and apologists" repeatedly not getting responding to this.  Then you finally get to the possibility of transformation with the Fox appearance.  Given that, it's not surprising how people react.


Funny (0.00 / 0)
I've only skimmed the comment section, but as a strong Obama supporter who also mostly agrees with Paul's analysis (and I don't consider that a contradiction at all), I find the discussion kind of funny.  Paul holds Obama up to some self-identified ideal and most of the rest hold Obama up to the available alternatives.

I do find it strange Paul declared what Obama should do at this interview as if it was some new concept only he thought of, when in fact it was the general consensus on this site from the moment the appearance was discussed.  But the idea this could be used against the other press in a way they would accept was a unique insight (and perhaps this was the only insight Paul intended to take credit for), so I forgive.

As far as more general defense of Obama goes, I think he gets partial credit.  He often mentions he believes we are at a major political turning point, so he gets that much.  And he gets a share of the other stuff as well.  Paul sees that and that is partially why he gets frustrated over it.  If it was just Clinton who doesn't get any of it he wouldn't even bother to bring it up.

But you know how Newton is thought of as the first modern scientist?  Did you know he was also into alchemy?  Turns out Newton was also the last of the physical philosophers as well.  Einstein is thought of as the first post Newtonian scientist, but he never did believe in quantum mechanics.

My hope is Obama will be the first modern progressive leader in this new era Paul discusses.  But we already know that even if this is true, he is also the last of the old style that still believe much of the conservative spin and critique.


Excellent Point Re Newton And Einstein! (0.00 / 0)
Which I'm especially receptive to, given a long-standing interest in history and philosophy of science.

In fact, the whole comment is pretty damn good.  Just one clarification, right here:

I do find it strange Paul declared what Obama should do at this interview as if it was some new concept only he thought of, when in fact it was the general consensus on this site from the moment the appearance was discussed.

It wasn't the idea of what he should do that I took as my subject here.  Rather, it was the larger gestalt I've been hammering at off and on for months and months and months, and how that idea fits into that gestalt.

Obviously, I didn't get this across.  It's not just you that didn't get that.  So, it's on me.  But it is what I was at least trying to say.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I knew there was a chance (0.00 / 0)
I wrote this late at night just as I went to bed.  I knew there was a chance I missed something (which is what I meant by the parenthetic that followed), but it certainly seem to be at the time what was going on.

[ Parent ]
I'm confused... (0.00 / 0)
If it's so easy to put a progressive in the White House, why aren't we doing it? Kucinich would've been good--although he worries me with his previous pro-life stance.  Who are the candidates we should be supporting?  I'll write them in on my ballot in Nov.

I just don' think we can get a progressive in the White House.  I beginning to wonder if we'll even be able to get a black person elected as POTUS in my lifetime.  I'm still pretty depressed that 13% of the people polled in PA said race was a concern for them.  Before this past election, I always assumed a black person could be POTUS if s/he were Republican.  Now I'm questioning that.

I guess my point in this rambling is that, like someone else said, the best we can do right now is elect the least repugnant of the candidates and try to push him/her to more progressive ideas because there's not a lot to choose from, and the American electorate will not vote for someone who's too different.


All That May Be True (0.00 / 0)
But I'm not necessarily making a progressive argument here.  I'm making a pragmatic one.  The best thing Obama can do--for his own sake as a candidate--is bust up the media's tendency toward converging on a narrative that makes him a freak--the same old narrative they always use, as Glenn Greenwald makes clear in Great American Hypocrites.  And the best way to do this, IMHO, is to strike deep, and decisively, and provide an opening for the non-Fox folks to pull back and strike a more reflective pose.

This is not about being more progressive.  It just happens that the way to win involves taking a more progressive approach, because it's a more agressive approach, and being aggressive here is the key to winning.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Good point... (0.00 / 0)
I see what you're saying now.

[ Parent ]
Couple Thoughts (4.00 / 1)
Mostly in reaction to the comments, and not to the piece itself.  Sorry Paul.

Someone (sorry, it's late and I don't feel like going back and looking) pointed out that Obama isn't the only one that does this, it's the whole Democratic Party in general... and the criticism of Obama is mostly because he is held (and should be held, imho) to a higher standard.  Someone else replied that it's also because he's going to be our Presidential nominee and for that he ALSO needs to be held to a higher standard, because he will set the pace for everyone else.  This I think is a really good point.  Obama is going to be our party's leader for the next 6 months (sorry Clinton fans) and, if he's successful, another 4 to 8 years after that.  The party will follow his cues, and because of this he needs to blaze the trail against the media.

Another comment that jumped out at me was the comparison to the progression of science.  Maybe it's just the physics major in me, but it feels right.  Obama-as-Newton (or even Einstein), changing the game for those who follow but still tied to the past.  It's an interesting analogy and I like it.  Still, Newton and Einstein's colleagues held their feet to the fire, and we should do the same with Obama.  Yes we can?


The Reformer's Dilemma (4.00 / 1)
A reformer runs on his saintliness, which then constrains him from doing the unsaintly things one often needs to do to win elections.

[ Parent ]
You May THINK You Were Commenting On The Comments (0.00 / 0)
But I think it was an excellent comment on the diary.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
If '08 Turns Out To Be A "Realigning Election" ... (4.00 / 1)
... we won't know it for quite a while. Certainly not this year, because a realignment requires a massive and sustained shift in power, plus major policy change that endures in spite of future partisan fluctuations.

Even more importantly, the build-up to a "realigning election," or to put it more accurately, the leading edge of realignment, a la the 1932 landslide that gave us FDR and shifted more than 100 seats to the Democrats, has not been marked by anything close to a complete departure from the political forms and discourse that are subsequently realigned.

Go look at FDR's 1932 presidential campaign, for instance, during which he emphasized a balanced budget. Did FDR refuse to speak to reporters from the Hearst papers, etc., in that election?

You are demanding that Obama radically break from the current discourse before winning what you hope will be a realigning election. In doing so, you are setting an impossibly high bar, one that has never being achieved in advance of the three previous realignments in U.S. history.


what is the goal (4.00 / 1)
If the goal is to produce incremental change and to start to build some democracy, then supporting Obama is an obvious choice. If the goal is explain how smart you are and to throw about concepts like "hegemony", then you can spent 8 months lambasting Obama for failing to live up to your feckless ideas of what a political candidate should do.

[ Parent ]
A Lot Of Smart People Have Lost The Presidency (0.00 / 0)
Often to people dumber than them.

So being smart on either side is really not the issue.

Recognizing stubborn truths, however, that's a whole different ballgame.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
stubborn truths (0.00 / 0)
You have made a little construct in which you posit that (a) Obama is or should be a "progressive" and (b) that it is up to the progressive candidate to win you over by declaring himself in the camp. Both are false.

[ Parent ]
No, That's YOUR Construct (0.00 / 0)
Which you repeatedly insist on projecting onto me.

Willow: "Bored now."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
First Win The Election (0.00 / 0)
Then, and only then, decide what sort of election it was.

[ Parent ]
I"m Constantly Amazed (0.00 / 0)
by the sharp contrast between your pithy clear-sightedness evident in your "Reformer's Dilemma" comment above, and the tangle of lies, delusions and false premises you repeat ad mauseum any time the topic of relignment comes up.

Suffice it to say, every word you wrote in this comment is false, including "and" and "the" (to paraphrase Mary McCarthy).

Realigning elections are immediately recognizable.  They do not depend on what comes after.  The policy followup may be bungled, or confused (as 1896 certainly was, for a variety of reasons, among them McKinnley's assasination, and the rise of Teddy Roosevelt in his stead), but that doesn't undo the status of the realigning election, it merely addresses the issue of its conceptual coherence and overall effectiveness.  

You know it's a realigning election because of the vote totals on election night. Period.  End of story.  All else goes to the issue of what kind of realignment it brings about.

In fact, the whole point of my argument is to clarify the fact that we are headed for a potential realigning election, and that we ought to be thinking about the very things that you mention in light of that fact.  What you take to be an antagonistic relationships is, in fact, a synergistic one.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Is That A Knee Jerking? (0.00 / 0)
Geez.

[ Parent ]
By The Way ... (0.00 / 0)
... this just doesn't look like a realigning election, even by your standard, which is lower than mine.

[ Parent ]
Why the US left is powerless and laughable (4.00 / 1)
For a very long time now, I've been extremely skeptical of Barack Obama as a progressive leader--except in the early 20th-Century meaning of the word "progressive," as I wrote some time back.  The problem I had was simple: since 2006, I've been looking forward to 2008 as a high-potential realigning election, characterized by a sea-change in politics, which necessarily means a wholesale rejection of the conservative Republican worldview.

Barack Obama is not a progressive leader: he is a centrist candidate to run for President of the United States. Actual political movements go out and try to gain adherents and allies. Therapeutic cults, which is what the US left has become, rationalize their powerlessness by explaining that nobody lives up to their standards. Your fantasy that somehow, without media, organization, or a popularized message, the public would reject the entire basis of the Gramcian "hegemony" that you talk about, is essentially an excuse for feeling betrayed and superior.

Obama is an interesting centrist because of his community organizing roots, his smart attempt to transcend the Republican rhetorical framework, and the sea change his internet fueled funding represents. However, he is not leading the socialist revolution and makes no pretense of doing so. Instead of attempting to understand this interesting phenomenon, you've spent months lecturing about how if only he would submit to the guidance of wise vanguard elements like yourself, he could make something of himself.  


Obama is a centrist (0.00 / 0)
Barack Obama is not a progressive leader: he is a centrist candidate to run for President of the United States. Actual political movements go out and try to gain adherents and allies. Therapeutic cults, which is what the US left has become, rationalize their powerlessness by explaining that nobody lives up to their standards. Your fantasy that somehow, without media, organization, or a popularized message, the public would reject the entire basis of the Gramcian "hegemony" that you talk about, is essentially an excuse for feeling betrayed and superior.

I wholeheartedly agree that Obama is a centrist. Gramci's concept of hegemony is relevant but not in the way that has been discussed so far.
Hegemony runs silent and it runs deep. It does it's work without leaving any obvious signs since it is pervasive in the society.
In this case hegemony has already done it's dirty work. Hegemony is why an even somewhat progressive candidate like Dennis Kucinich is dismissed by the MSM as beyond the pale.

Everyone interested in this discussion should take a closer look at Gramci, but be prepared to come out of it pretty depressed about the possibility of gradualist, progressive reform.


[ Parent ]
It's Fascinating (0.00 / 0)
how big a role projection plays in your "analysis."  Had I but world enough and time, I might go into it in detail. But alas, no.

Suffice it to say that realignment has didly squat to do with vanguards, and quite a lot to do with the exhaustion of political bargains.  Which is why calling this election as a probable realigning one is not exactly an act of genius on my part.

(It's also why Mark Matson's comment above, drawing the parallels to Newton and Einstein was so incredibly insightful.  Obama really is a creature of the old bargain, which is part of why he resists realignment so vehemently.  Thus, ironically, at one level or another, he's the very embodiment of everything he's running against.  And thus, he struggles against himself.  It's all quite literary.)

The marvels of Obama's campaign have been talked to death at dozens--no hundreds, if not thousands--of other political blogs.  I'm sure they really don't miss my voice being part of that conversation.

I find it rather curious that you of all people, feel my absence so keenly.  I never knew you cared.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The usual superficial response (4.00 / 2)
Here's the problem: as even you recognize, the right wing elites in this country have been able to maintain power despite the huge gap between their insane agendas and popular will, or even reality. Obama is the first major Democratic candidate to attempt to attack their marketing and branding. However, he's been enormously hampered in this effort by a US "left" that is deeply invested in being ineffective and that is, as the republicans note, totally out of touch with popular culture. Nothing that you write could have survived participation in a successful campaign, or even a couple of days of canvassing.

[ Parent ]
A progressive argument (4.00 / 2)
Apologies to Paul for not engaging directly with the main point of the diary. Instead, I want to attempt a defense of the "Obama as a progressive" question, albeit on my terms rather than yours. :-)

First off, add my vote to those who are disappointed that Obama is not Paul Wellstone or Russ Feingold. I only recently became an active supporter of Obama, largely because of differences in how Obama and Hillary are running their campaigns and the coalitions they are forming.

Here's just a few ways Obama's campaign, his nomination, and his presidency further liberal and progressive causes:

- The historic first of a bi-racial nominee/President is a progressive act. (As would a woman President.) Just by itself.

- Obama has a liberal voting record (as does Clinton). Both Obama and Clinton are in the more liberal half of Senate Democras.

- Obama supports net neutrality and government transparency. These are important components for building new power structures.

- Most importantly, Obama has a people-powered, bottom-up approach of energizing and expanding the electorate. I might argue that the campaign's major Web 2.0 activities (e.g., my.barackobama.com) and major investments in field are building the base for an independent power center that may eventually obsolete traditional media and other power brokers.

Paul -- If I understand your critique correctly, you're looking for Obama to make a frontal attack on the status quo. Instead, I see potential evidence of a flanking attack -- granted, it's harder to know if flanking is happening, but I do think it's a more effetive strategy in the long run.

They call me Clem, Clem Guttata. Come visit wild, wonderful West Virginia Blue


Almost (0.00 / 0)
I pretty much agree with your assessment of Obama.

Where we differ starts with a quibble--that I'm not really calling for a frontal assault on the media.

What I'm calling for is closer to a flanking movement, too, since it involves letting most of the media off the hook for its past, if it repudiates the Fox News approach that it's been all so willing to enable and reinforce up to now.

Our real difference, however, comes with your last line:

granted, it's harder to know if flanking is happening, but I do think it's a more effetive strategy in the long run.

Here, I simply disagree.  In fact, what I actually advocate for is much more aggressive than anything Obama would ever dream of doing--and that is a frontal assault (although, of course, it would take the kind of advance groundwork that Democrats and progressives have repeatedly refused to engage in).  What I'm talking about, quite simply, is that we actually engage in the Gramscian culture war that the right has been waging against us for the past 30-40 years.

I don't expect Obama to do that, of course.  But it is what I advocate for.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Wishful Thinking (4.00 / 1)
Frontal attacks by Obama on our conservative political culture and the media that supports it will not arouse much if any political support at this point in time, as evidenced by the failure of Kucinich and Edwards to gain any popular traction during their primary bids.

It is just plain wishful thinking to hope that Obama is going to walk our progressive talk at this juncture.

Obama has learned not to pick direct fights he cannot win in the short term but to bide his time and pick up as much support as he can from making reasonable arguments to reasonable people.

Often these arguments drive us progressives crazy because they are so triangulating. But he has become adept at doing this throughout his life, especially during his stint as the first African American editor of the Harvard Law Review where he had to mediate among very divergent views. Right now, he has no choice but to continue this pattern given the political forces and demographics at work.

The fact is that we progressives have no choice but to vote for Obama and he knows that.

His main strategic and tactical challenge is to get a sizable portion of the Independents and unaffiliated to vote for him, since they represent nearly 40% of the electorate and they are going to play king maker in the general election.

I am not very interested in the attention everyone is giving the role of the media propagandists in this race because our criticisms just wash over their backs.

But Obama can use the conservative and centrist media to try to reach reasonable Independents, unaffiliated voters and conservatives.

Lots of people watch Fox and Obama is well-advised to get in there and pitch himself to its viewers as a better choice over McCain.

Walking the talk of a Gramsciesque politician in this milieu, however he presents it, is not likely to fill the bill of getting the Independent votes he needs to get elected in November.


[ Parent ]
See My Response In The New Diary (0.00 / 0)
based on Mark Matson's brilliant comment.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
okay, good, we're mostly in agreement... (4.00 / 1)
Except on perhaps the most important point. :-)

You're calling for political suicide.

Freshen up on Sun Tzu. In the Art of War, he says you only go direct frontal when you have, what, a 6 to 1 advantage of forces. You're suggesting he go frontal with more like a 1 to 6 disadvantage. That's political suicide.

Oh, yes, it would be exciting to watch. It may be liberating to many of us (for the short term). But, it would be ultimately counterproductive.

They call me Clem, Clem Guttata. Come visit wild, wonderful West Virginia Blue


[ Parent ]
But This ISN'T A Full Frontal Assault (4.00 / 1)
Okay, on Fox News, maybe it is.  But Al Franken already beat the tar out of them, and that was years ago.

No, what I'm calling for is very much in the spirit of Sun Tzu--I'm calling for a strategic strike that will use the current opening (the beginings of inter-Versailles criticism, most notably over the ABC debate) to shift the whole nature of the battle, and make Fox the odd man out.

It's very much not about tarring everyone with the same brush--however much many of them might deserve it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Ye dare speak it's name! (0.00 / 0)
This sure is coming too late where many people are piping up to notice that Obama, no, is not a Progressive or a Populist in policy positions.

Thank you.  Believe me, I was incredibly shocked for originally I was one of those anyone but Hillary people, to find her policy positions, economics, trade, labor, read more progressive than Obama.  

It might be too late but for me, I want dramatic policy change, not a personality change for our government.  

NoSlaves.com  


The Economic Populist


Donate to Open Left








Friends of the Earth thanks the OpenLeft community for the ideas you generate and your contributions to the progressive movement.

As an anti-spam measure, there is a 24-hour waiting period after registering before new users can comment.
blog advertising is good for you
blog advertising is good for you
SEARCH

   

Advanced Search