Quit Acting Like Babies

by: Matt Stoller

Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 23:25


I try to restrict my hectoring, but I've been sitting on some bad feelings for awhile and I think it's time I put words to what I've noticed about the explicitly liberal internet space.  
Matt Stoller :: Quit Acting Like Babies
This recommended diary on Jim Webb is typical at this point of the liberal internet space.  It quotes Webb saying the following:

"There are fundamental differences," McCain told Politico. "[Webb's GI Bill] creates a new bureaucracy and new rules. His bill offers the same benefits whether you stay three years or longer. We want to have a sliding scale to increase retention. I haven't been in Washington, but my staff there said that his has not been eager to negotiate."

"He's so full of it," Webb said in response. "I have personally talked to John three times. I made a personal call to [McCain aide] Mark Salter months ago asking that they look at this."

The diary is titled 'Webb Shreds McCain on GI Bill: "He's So Full of It"' and it is followed by 200 sycophantic comments mewling about how awesome Webb is.  Not one person noted the next few paragraphs of the story from which this is quoted.

"Hell, no," Webb bristled when asked if there had been an implicit message that he would attack McCain if he didn't come on board.

"John McCain has been a longtime friend of mine, and I think if John sat down and examined what was in this bill, he would co-sponsor it," Webb said. "I don't want this to become a political issue. I want to get a bill done."

Indeed, Jim Webb doesn't want anyone to think that he doesn't honor John McCain's service.  And he doesn't want to make the GI Bill a political issue, no way.  That would be so uncouth, after all, Democrats and Republicans agree on stuff, right, and politics is bad, it's not at all the way that a democratic society manages decision-making.  Webb is on the one hand calling McCain a liar and then a friend, and putting his head down so that the GI Bill won't be a political issue.  How the hell does he expect change to happen if he's not willing to make basic questions of values political?  Webb has blown his credibility repeatedly; remember the response to the state of the union, in 2007, when he said Democrats would show the Bush the way if he did not change course on Iraq.  That didn't work so well, did it?  He voted badly on taxes, FISA, and war funding, and he is quite clearly telegraphing his intentions.  Sycophantic star struck media worshipping behavior only shows him that we are cheap dates.

So that's example one, but here are some more.

Let's start with the post-partisan crap, with Senator Daniel Inouye feting Senator Ted Stevens with a lobbyist driven fundraiser out of shared policy goals (drilling in ANWR) and long-term friendship.  I used this example to criticize the argument that post-partisanship and reaching across the aisle is good in and of itself, which led Obama supporters to say that this is not the kind of post-partisanship they mean, they want a different post-partisanship that involves reaching across the aisle but in a good way.  Ok then.  And that's not to mention Chris's sarcastic post-partisan piece gutting the various straw men designed to demean and insult people who want to fight Republicans and have, you know, noticed the last eight years.

And then there are the number of people who take issue with a basic request for competence at the Obama campaign with regards to communications.  People apparently don't want Obama sending out talking points or talking to bloggers, preferring that bloggers stay independent.  Well excuse me, why do you think Obama surrogates suck on TV?  They aren't getting fucking talking points, you idiots.  How do you think this works?

While we're on Obama, consider the ridiculous defenses of Obama going on Fox News and lying about his intent to 'take them on', to which I could refer you to Chris's post once again.  The straw men arguments were just disgusting and out in force.

Finally, we get to the unbelievably vicious attacks on Women's Voices Women's Vote.  Why pretend like they operate in bad faith?  This is a progressive organization that registers voters, something very few of us know anything about doing on a large scale level because there just isn't very much of it happening.  WVWV does it systematically, they do it aggressively, and they did it when no one else would, in 2004 or 2006.  Do you think it's glamorous to register voters or something?  Do you think lots of people come up to you and say 'great job registering millions of voters in 2004', or nice job on that voter registration campaign in Ohio, you really empowered a lot of poor women?  Do you think you get 15% of a multi-million dollar TV budget to register voters?  Of course not.  It's hard, difficult, boring fucking work that no other progressive group would do.  But of course it's easy to go after these people and pretend like there's some nefarious Clinton-spawned plot when several of the board members, including Mike Lux who has posted here for months, are well-known Obama supporters, and the organization relies on academics and data-driven methods.

If I sound frustrated, it's because I am.  The extent to which the progressive movement that came into existence over the past few years has prostituted itself for people who look good on TV while lying to us and stabbed our friends sickens me.  It's just sick.  You don't seem to understand how much contempt people in these Presidential campaigns have for you, how low we rank because we demand nothing of them.  You know when Moveon was censured, they were censuring all of us, and they meant it.  I've seen Senators turn away nastily from Moveon staffers after learning they were from Moveon.

Anyway, I'm tired of sitting on these bitter feelings, and I figured the best thing to do now is to write about it.


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While I don't agree with all of your points, (4.00 / 1)
I understand your frustration.  Keep the faith.

John McCain doesn't care about Vets.



Keep on Hectoring -- (4.00 / 2)
The verb hector is from Hector, defender of Troy; slayer of  Patroclus (Achilles' lover) -- antagonist to Achilles' protagonist in the Iliad.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/...

What is right, and what is wrong -- with the Obama and Clinton campaigns.

Team Obama has THE BEST strategic vision the Democratic Party has seen in years; perhaps they shunned a golden opportunity, by not have a better working relationship with netroots activists.

On the other hand, Napoleon launched his career by turning his cannon on the Paris mob; fat lot of good it did, cultivating the netroots, for the now departed Democratic candidates.

Team Obama is way bad in the War Room Rapid Response dept -- they missed a golden opportunity for a paid media dialog with Rural America on what Obama meant to say, when he offered up the cable squawkfest with his bitter comment.

Team Clinton has THE BEST War Room Rapid Response team the Democrats have seen since Wonder Bread.

Example: Hillary has been the biggest opponent of NAFTA since for-evah -- while the reality of Hillary as NAFTA booster until day before yesterday has disappeared down the memory hole.

Unfortunately for them, Team Clinton has lost the campaign -- they brought no strategic vision other than a sense of entitlement; now that they've lost, the only weapon they have is Rapid Response reinventing the narrative.

Unfortunately for all of us, that also includes reinventing reality . . .

Obama needs a bulldog VP surrogate, and Jim Webb's smoochy face crap with McBush does not help. Obama needs someone like Harold Ickes Sr, who was a very effective enforcer for FDR. With the MSM totally in bed with the GOP, only a VP candidate can do the job -- who on our bench has the right stuff?  


[ Parent ]
Another Clinton Advantage (4.00 / 2)
She goes on Fox -- O'Reilly even.  I am waiting for the outrage.

John McCain doesn't care about Vets.



[ Parent ]
uh, no (3.33 / 6)

As a Clinton supporter, to be blunt about it: Obama's balloon is simply losing air.  The first real signs of it were that he wasn't getting anywhere with undecided Pennsylvania voters, about a week before that debate/charade.  So it's been roughly three weeks of hitting the ceiling and then increasingly obvious shift against him.  

I don't see him capable of reversing the trend.  He's played his good cards, there just isn't much left.  Going negative hasn't worked, Clinton is on a PR winning streak, debates aren't going to help, outspending her 3-1 isn't doing enough, and the Clinton team has gotten better at generating turnout.  Team Obama is back to seeing how much pull the positive 'hope and change' thing has left.

What I see is Obama believers hoping he can run out the clock on Clinton and praying that the publicly committed superdelegates are going to hold.  And that depends a lot on his General Election map versus McCain not breaking down- constructed as it is on slim reeds, e.g. Colorado.

It's easy to blame incidents for it- Wright and all that.  I think it's actually more the background of broad decline and failure- economic recession, global slipping of status/control, and the Bush misgovernance misère in general.  Obama does very well when the question is "what kind of a Party do we want to be?  What kind of country will we be?"  But Clinton wins when the question is "what do we have to do next, as unpalatable as it may be, to get us out of the messes that point backwards in time?  And who can we rely on to get it done?"

This election cycle simply is defined by Hillary Clinton.  It was so more than a year ago, it is so now.  It will be on January 21 of next year.  The People and the media have given her competitors every chance to prove themselves better.  All the while making her prove her claim of being more hardened to disheartenment and abuse than the rest, and more relevant in the long run.

She has now weathered and broken down a lot of anti-Hillaryism.  It's perceptibly thinning in amount and enthusiasm (for the time being) and after a last indulgent surge of credibility is starting to get discounted and tuned out by moderates.  It's very much the same story as toward the end of her 2000 Senate primary campaign in New York.  



[ Parent ]
Dead Wrong (4.00 / 2)
If anything she has pissed more people off.  She will lose the General Election and her purely evil Rovian tactics probably have hurt Obama in the General as well.  She's a piece of garbage and has fucked up our party because of her Rovian type campaigning.  

While only SOME of her policies are Republican like, her tactics are full on Republican.  She should be ashamed of her self but we know she isn't and will continue to act like the filthy piece of garbage she is.  

She won't win the nomination, but she has hurt our party in November.  Thanks Hillary... bang up leadership there.


[ Parent ]
Yes, a "gas tax holiday" is certainly a gutsy call. (4.00 / 1)
But Clinton wins when the question is "what do we have to do next, as unpalatable as it may be, to get us out of the messes that point backwards in time?

[ Parent ]
2000 Senate campaign? ... (0.00 / 0)
did she even have a challenge once Mr. 9/11 wimped out?

[ Parent ]
Hillary's surge (4.00 / 1)
Excellent analysis.

She showed very clearly last night on O'Reilly's show just how strong she will be in the fall.

She will undercut a HUGE part of McCain's moderate and Dem-conservative and independent support and will leave him and the GOP to try and win with just the Bush base, which looks like it has shrunk to about 25% of the electorate.


[ Parent ]
On the money, Matt. (0.00 / 0)
Unfortunately, judging by the above posts, Quit Acting Like Babies flew right over numerous cabezas. Talk throwing a rock into the pond and not getting a ripple! Frustrating, I guess.

[ Parent ]
This is priceless (0.00 / 0)
She showed very clearly last night on O'Reilly's show just how strong she will be in the fall.

I'd respond but I'm too busy reading all of the stories/diaries calling Hillary on the carpet for appearing on Fox.

John McCain doesn't care about Vets.



[ Parent ]
Respectfully disagree... (0.00 / 0)
the "anti-Hillaryism" is growing and becoming more virulent, it's not dissipating but rather becoming deeper.  What the Hillary supporters see as not competent in Obama (due to HRC telling her supporters this), Obama supporters see a willingness to destroy the party and the country in a mad power grab.

HRC's "baggage" hasn't been rummaged through, at least the stuff from the past 7 years and for her team and supporters to think that what comes out should she snatch the nomination won't destroy her candidacy shows that she inhabits the same fantasy-land that GWB does.  


[ Parent ]
well, it's anger phase (0.00 / 0)

You know the first three Kubler-Ross stages of dealing with catastrophic news: denial (pre-Pennsylvania), anger (post-PA/now), bargaining (maybe after NC/IN).

I didn't say Obama is incompetent, and no, I reached my conclusions on my own.  Mostly from the way that his policies are constructed on a point of view that assumes a bunch of conservative mythologies/revisionisms to be valid and a fairly alienated attitude to global affairs to be reasonable.  In them the present final stage of Culture War and the residual Cold War simply aren't taken seriously- they're icky, they're the problems of Other People.  And from Terence Samuel, a black political analyst who knows both campaigns intimately, who says (very quietly, but on TV nonetheless) that the Obama campaign simply is all about race in America and newly ascendent groups- young, black, educated- reaching for power.  Leaving the policy agenda a kind of trappings- not out of design, but because a campaign will have just one true emotional core.  Which is why the Jeremiah Wright thing  causes such an emotional contradiction.

Well, I can live with the Party having a shakeup and illiberals or conservatives leaving.  "I was right and remain righteous about Iraq and I want power, I hate Clinton for not catering to me and my righteousness" is not a liberal attitude or a moderate one.  It's a claim of entitlement.  It has no humility to balance its authority.


[ Parent ]
I have to disagree (0.00 / 0)
I'm sure you believe what you've written here, but it's mere assertion since there is no factual evidence to support it.

The fact is that ever since Super Tuesday, and perhaps before that, Obama has led Hillary in money raised, pledged delegates won, popular votes, and states-won, and consistently widened the gap in every one of those metrics.  The only measure by which Hillary led was superdelegates, and in that measure, her lead has continually shrunk.

So what trend is it, exactly, that Obama needs to reverse?


[ Parent ]
I agree on the first two points, not WVWV (4.00 / 9)
At the very least, WVWV looks extremely naive for not realizing such an organization in such a poisoned environment (thanks Hillary) would end up looking like crap.

I'm all for standing up for the netroots, but I'm not going to defend WVWV when they deserve to be criticized. I mean, the Democratic AG is throwing the book at them and I agree.


But there's a difference (4.00 / 5)
Between saying "WVWV definitely screwed up here, and needs to fix it" and asking 32 razor-edged questions, the first one sounding like, "What did Page Gardner know and when did she know it?" You are certainly in a position to ask the former.

That's what I've heard all day, and being currently employed by Mike Lux and thus having done work with the WVWV folks for 22 months, I can tell you they deserve the benefit of the doubt and being taken at their word, not what's being thrown their way.

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[ Parent ]
I disagree with giving them the benefit of the doubt (3.27 / 11)
I'm also familiar with them from 2004, yet I'm not giving them a get out of jail free card on this. IMO, field people not bothering to pay attention to the political optics is the same as wonks not bothering to care about politics.

In this age, anything involving Clintonistas should be assumed to be nefarious until proven otherwise. In such an environment, if they planned to do what they did, they are idiots. If it was incompetence, it was consistently grand. So yes, I totally understand asking 32 razor-edged questions and I'm going to sleep tonight having more questions than when I work up this morning.

And I don't think anyone working for anyone involved in this should be talking about who is in position to ask what questions. But since you brought it up, when do we get to know what Page Gardner knew and when did she know it?


[ Parent ]
Wow (4.00 / 3)
Politically incompetent does not make enemies out of friends.

Unless, of course, Obama supporters quick to flip out at anything possibly pro-Clinton take it too far. I've seen your kind- they're the ones who snarl at me if I objectively compliment a Clinton ad or note that Obama has trouble among white working class voters, absolutely HAVING to say something nasty about Clinton in return, as if it's warranted. I mentioned early last week that Obama going on FOX News wasn't helpful to progressives, speaking from an objective standpoint on the progressive movement, and my Obama friend felt he HAD TO POINT OUT that Clinton did the same! Clinton did the same! As if I cared. In order for him to feel better about the whole thing, I HAD to note that, yes, Clinton and her surrogates have been on. THEN we could talk about FOX News and the progressive movement. It felt so petty.

It felt like my Republican father, whenever I mentioned Guantanamo or someone breaking the law in the Bush admin, he had to say "But Clinton lied about an intern" as if it all came back to partisan politics for him.

Sorry, it doesn't for me. Please, don't be so hyper-sensitive Obama that you can't see past the end of your nose.

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[ Parent ]
I'm somewhere in the middle (4.00 / 1)
I've made respectful requests to Mike Lux at openleft (ex: http://www.openleft.com/showCo... and haven't rushed to judgment.

However, I have seen 3 responses from WVWV so far and none of them really address the biggest concerns most folks have.  That smells like obfuscation to me.

I sincerely hope this is not intended criminal activity and is just merely incompetence.  But I'm anxiously waiting for someone responsible at WVWV to address the frequently voiced concerns.

However, one of the bottom lines is that WVWV is hurting Dems.  Please don't ask us to sweep that under the rug.


[ Parent ]
Thanks so very much (4.00 / 5)
"In this age, anything involving Clintonistas should be assumed to be nefarious until proven otherwise."

You know, if it weren't for people like Chris and Matt, I'd have decided to assume months ago that anything involving Obama supporters was intellectually dishonest until proven otherwise.


[ Parent ]
I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt (4.00 / 1)
I emailed Mike Lux (politely I think) this afternoon and have been coming back here to find out more.  It felt like for most of the day, information was in short supply.

The email Matt posted from Credo Action was the first thing that seemed to make sense about what could be happening that wasn't nefarious.  Other than that, there were several articles which seemed to show that this was a consistent pattern across several states and each time the spokeswoman for WVWV was quoted saying that they weren't intending to confuse people.

Well that looked mighty suspicious, and a lot of us who care about the primary were concerned that it might still be going on.

The statements from you, Matt, and Mike Lux definitely give me pause and I am certainly willing to accept that this was just a big screw up. But I don't have your knowledge of the organization, so my first thought wasn't "these are the good guys, there has to be some mistake" it was, "this might be one of those organizations that was started for good reasons and is being used for bad things" and when I say Mike Lux was on the board, I thought "Does he know what this organization is doing?".

This primary campaign has worn me down to no end and I have noticed my fuse has shortened on these kinds of things.  


[ Parent ]
Re WVWV (4.00 / 2)
Do you deny they made mistakes, big mistakes, "violated the law" mistakes?

i don't know (4.00 / 4)
Innocent until proven guilty.

Jesus, throw your friends under the bus, much?


[ Parent ]
Haven't you read the NC AG C and D letter? (4.00 / 6)
They flat out tell WVWV's legal counsel that they violated state law.

I can't believe it's all hearsay, and I can't believe they didn't make their own mistakes.

I didn't throw anyone under a bus, BTW - they walked out in front of it themselves.


[ Parent ]
Oh, come on... (4.00 / 5)
If it was a right-wing organization, you'd be all over it.  Don't give me the "I'm partisan" bullshit on this one, either.  What they did was bad, whether it's incompetence bad or evil bad.  We liberals/progressives don't put up with voter suppression.  Period.

[ Parent ]
They have registered 400,000 people (4.00 / 3)
In the last year. Was that voter suppression too?  

[ Parent ]
John Podesta admits mistakes (4.00 / 3)
Podesta in an email to Kossack stefanielaine:

While I believe the calling program there was a mistake of judgment and execution, and not an attempt to disenfranchise voters, as a board member, I have asked for a full accounting of the circumstances of the North Carolina events.

A mistake of judgment, a mistake of execution.

Even Mike Lux said, "it's entirely possible that busy folks were a little bit asleep at the switch."

I am inclined to be satisfied by Podesta's phrasing; also, Podesta and Lux haven't been out all day doing a song and dance for us, and to me, that is good, because it means they are trying to do something about what has happened.

Their acknowledgement of a mistake or problem was good; their promise to ask for a full accounting was also good.

Yes, this group has registered new voters, and that is good, too; what happened with these robocalls and mailers was bad, though.

Was it suppression? The jury is still out. But the more time that passes before  all questions are answered, the more people in general will have a negative impression of events. Evasion usually lends itself to the appearance of guilt.

If WVWV could admit the blunders and attempt to make amends, quickly -- they could turn this lemon into lemonade.  

We could always get stuck sucking on that lemon and puckering, though. It's all on them right now.


[ Parent ]
People can register and vote this week in one step, here (4.00 / 2)
What they did was wrong in many ways, including being illegal.

If this were the first offense, we would all give them the benefit of the doubt. It isn't.

When a multiple offender continues to commit the same offense, I don't call them my friends. If these are political pros I can only conclude, based on the pattern of continuing offenses that it was intentional.

I'm not throwing them under a bus.

They stopped on the train tracks. The train wreck is their own doing.


[ Parent ]
a great post filled with home truths (0.00 / 0)
You once were lost but now your found, was blind but now you see.  

Good points. (4.00 / 3)
I'd glad to see you express your bitterness with a good rant rather than by clinging to guns or religion.

miasmo.com

yeah (0.00 / 0)
the other ten posts this week didn't get it across.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
Frustration born of powerlessness (4.00 / 13)
That's how I see this. It's gotten to the point where I am not reading dKos any more (hence my dramatically increased posting rate here), or gravitating to diaries and posts not on campaign politics whatsoever. It's annoying to see but I totally understand the source.

In the last two weeks, since the game-changing ABC News debate  in Philadelphia, the corporate media has asserted control over the race and its narratives, and the people who are changing their votes based on this are the folks we have never been able to reach (older blue-collar George Wallace Democrats).

Moreover, most liberal netrooters have never really found a way to fight back against the media when they do this, whereas the conservative netroots have had a series of proven successes. Much of that is due to the media's institutional bias toward that conservative netroots, but we have not really spent any effort trying to change that dynamic.

And it's a massive oversight. That media helped swing the 2000 and 2004 elections to Bush through BS smears of the Democratic candidate. Their role in producing the Iraq War is legendary. Path to 9/11, Sinclair Broadcasting, endless attention to the Swiftboaters, or to Kerry's "joke," or flag pins, or Jeremiah Wright - all of this should be a sign that our fire must be concentrated on the media.

It's difficult to know how to attack the media successfully. And in that frustration born of powerlessness, liberal netrooters have turned their fire on Obama or have overcompensated by heaping lavish and undeserved praise as you noted regarding Webb.

Sites like Open Left didn't perform much better - they fell for the diversion that was Obama on Fox News. I didn't support his decision to go on there, but it was insignificant next to the real problems, which are ABC News, CNN, and MSNBC. They've become far more dangerous than Fox News, which remains marginalized even after Obama's appearance (if it wasn't marginalized wouldn't his appearance have arrested Obama's poll decline?).

The real enemy is the media and unless we figure out how to go after them and produce change, they're going to bring us a President McCain. We ignore this 8-year old problem at our collective peril.


Primary fight + internal fighting = lessened influence (0.00 / 0)
What a great point. I totally agree. The media took over and the focus turned to Ayers, Wright, race, flag pins, and patriotism. And the blogs either deliberately ignored the issues or took them on as their own (HRC blogs like talkleft and mydd provided links and commentary on Ayers and Wright) (the Obama blogs acted like it wasn't even happening-they refused to dignify the crap) It has been an interesting couple of weeks. Being divided as a result of the primary has lessened our ability to take on the media full force...on the other hand we like it when the media is making our candidate look good....and around and around we go.

[ Parent ]
yeah well you know what (4.00 / 1)
I don't care what you think about mewling commenters.

all the posts today, not the comments, whining about life and the internet and politics have really lost me. turned me completely off to the one site I admired above the others. see ya, for awhile. hope you guys get it together soon and start doing what you do best again.


Thanks, Matt, but are you surprised? (4.00 / 7)
I agree with you 100%, but at the same time, isn't this to be expected?  I read somewhere (it might have even been here on Open Left) that the progressive movement is heavy on the partisan support, and light on the movement.  That has been the message for the last 6-8 years - support Democrats.

So people are supporting Democrats, even as the Democratic elected officials piss all over them.  There's no Populist movement like the late 19th century.  No Civil Rights movement of the 50's and 60's which operated independently of the Democratic Party, and had a focus including, but not limited to, partisan political success.  What we have today is "The Republicans are horrible evil people, and Democrats are the opposite of them."  The focus has been almost exclusively on partisan political success, to the almost total exclusion of everything else.

Sad to say, but the second half of "more and better Democrats" has been completely glossed over.  For all the talk of primary challenges and getting great Democrats like Darcy Burner, the reality is that we had, what, four credible primary challenger this year?  That's just not a credible threat to the 200+ Democratic members of Congress, much less unelected DLC types.  Because all they really hear from the blogosphere is "Republicans are evil...Democrats are great!"  Again and again and again.  And they hear that because we say it because we are not part of a larger movement.  We're part of a targeted effort to take out Republicans, and not much more right now.

Not good or bad, and no blame, just an observation.


Excellent. Fucking. Post. (4.00 / 2)
Wow Matt, that is one of the most emotional and intense posts I've seen from you in a while, and it also one of the best. I agree aboslutely. I felt the same way when my diary comparing Obama/Fox to Bush/ABC (which, to whomever frontpaged it today, I am humbled and quite thankful that you deemed it good enough to receive such an honor) was posted on Daily Kos, and EVERY response attacked the criticism of Obama, most of the responses completely ignoring the actual historical analysis and comparison. While they were respectful, it felt as though they had ignored the thesis of the actual diary, and merely typed out a generic response to the Obama/Fox event. Even here, many responses were just as negative. It's so weird, because I am one of the biggest Obama supporters in my town, but I just can't understand why so many of my fellow Obama-partisans can't stand the hint of criticism or negative reaction to something he does, even when it is justified.

Former Edwards Supporter, Obama Supporter since January 30, 2008

Ironic Whiny Post (4.00 / 1)
Matt's whines that progressives exposed an organization that has been violating laws in state after state.

Matt's the crybaby.

Kudos to Progressive South.


[ Parent ]
Sargent (4.00 / 1)
Regarding the charge that an Obama aide "lied" about taking Fox on. No lie has been demonstrated. We have Greg Sargent's interpretation of a conversation. I didn't see the aide explain what he meant. As I've pointed out, he may have meant "taking on the false issues raised by Fox", which is what Obama did.

You fail to point out that many of us Obama supporters have said repeatedly that he should not have gone on Fox.

I need more evidence before I agree it was a lie. I think that is a perfectly rational position to have.

And the WVWV behavior is very suspicious. They are going to have to explain why they repeatedly broke laws and why they used a fake person's name. There is nothing wrong with demanding an explanation for behavior that seems fishy.


Here is yor evidence (4.00 / 1)
This is what Obama's adviser said:

We are clear-eyed about Fox?'s role in the dissemination and amplification of Republican talking points this election. They have been the tip of the spear when it comes to repeatedly broadcasting some of the most specious of rumors about Obama. He is going on their Sunday show to take Fox on, not because we have any illusion about their motives or politics in this election.

That is what Sargent printed in his post. There is no "interpretation" here. It says what it says and the adviser is quite clear in the context of the quote.

Either you Semblance are too damned lazy to go read for yourself or you are just jumping around this blog and who knows how many others spreading false information as if you are changing the world.

Did Obama take Fox on? Hell no. He said Republicans have good ideas like Charter Schools and that Democrats have had bad ideas like regulations for companies to curtail emissions to protect the environment and that companies should be able to solve that problem on their own without government interference. That is what you support. Policies that will erode the Public School system and letting corporations decide for themselves whether profits or saving the earth are more important. Go read the Fox transcript for yourself. Oh yeah, you don't do that.


[ Parent ]
Not there (0.00 / 0)
I've read that quote. It can mean that Obama is going to take on the rumors, which he did.

[ Parent ]
He is going on their Sunday show to take Fox on (0.00 / 0)
"He is going on their Sunday show to take Fox on"

Seems pretty clear to me. I'm not sure how that can be read as going on Fox to take the rumors on.  


[ Parent ]
He did (4.00 / 3)
I think the aide would say that Obama DID take Fox on. You and Greg Sargent are insisting on a particular interpretation of those three words. If the aide had said, "Obama is going to tell Chris Wallace that Fox News is a propaganda outfit", then you'd have a point. But he didn't say that. He seems to have meant, "Obama is going to take them on by showing up and answering any questions".

There's no evidence of a lie.


[ Parent ]
It's an interpretation (4.00 / 3)
You have one interpretation of those words.  It may be the most reasonable and accurate one, but that does not mean there can't be another way of understanding those words.

When you're calling someone a liar based on a possible mis-communication about a phrase, I tend to think it's always a good idea to take a step back and ask whether throwing accusations is useful.

I don't agree about the terribleness of going on Fox.  I don't think it was a good idea or anything - it doesn't seem particularly important either way.  But I can totally see why people would disagree, and I get all the reasons why it might be a bad idea.  

On this "lie" thing though, it's hard to see it as anything other than someone spoiling for a fight and going out of their way to interpret events in a manner that makes it justifiable.


[ Parent ]
Took on rumors (0.00 / 0)
Dude you are full of it. Go to the transcript and post here where Obama even talked about Fox rumors. Or where he 'took on' any rumors from anyone at all. He didn't. Why do you go around just making stuff up.

Taking Fox On is what Bill Clinton did when he got in Wallace's face. Obama on the other hand 'played nice' with Wallace during the entire interview and as I pointed out praised Republicans and dissed Democrats. Of course you didn't respond th that part of my post because it is indefensible. Obviously along with Obama you support eroding the Public School System in which case you belong on a righty blog.


[ Parent ]
Charter Schools (0.00 / 0)
Have you ever visited a good charter school?  If not, you should visit for a day.  I'm sure the principal would love for you to observe.  All the ones I've visited are quite used to visitors and, given that they understand the value of innovation, they are open to feedback.  I can even recommend a few, depending on where you live.

Stating that every charter school is contributing to the erosion of the public school system strikes me as an unnecessarily polarizing and simplistic point of view.  Surely you can see the value of having a small number schools which have increased flexibility with regards to curriculum, hiring, etc., especially when that flexibility comes with increased accountability.  It can be extremely difficult to change the culture of a school, but the task becomes easier if you start a school from scratch, put smart people in charge, and have them set a school culture that has the right balance of discipline/warmth to allow children to learn.

The "eroding" public schools have been failing children for a long time now.  Perhaps it is time we stop defending them and instead look for innovative ways to make them better.  Charter schools are one way to discover new ways in which to improve the existing school system.  Not all of them are good.  Some fail.  But the very best ones have already proven that it is possible to close the achievement gap.  That's a good thing, right?


[ Parent ]
And ... (4.00 / 7)
Anyway, I'm tired of sitting on these bitter feelings, and I figured the best thing to do now is to write about it.

Another best thing to do would be to help along the integration of groups with a good ground game with groups that have powerful internet operations.  That's what's happening right now between USAction and True Majority.  It's going to be a very productive alliance.  Blogs could be part of it.

As for WVWV: I was part of their work on the ground in '06.  It was very hard - mostly because volunteers were nearly impossible to find - but b/c of the work, we got something like 1500 likely progressive female voters to the voting booths in a crucial PA swing district, which is now represented by a Democrat.  You're welcome!

If you're really bitter, come to PA.  There's too much work to do to be bitter ;)


You know... (4.00 / 1)
over this last week or so I find myself liking this site more and more.

Heh (4.00 / 1)
Matt's righteous anger really is a unique force.

I support John McCain because children are too healthy anyway.

[ Parent ]
You are not the only one who is frustrated. (4.00 / 3)
A lof of people feel burned out, frustrated and sometimes even paranoid. Cries of betrayal left and right. Crashed hopes and in some cases bruised egos...

You are spot on abuot WVWV. I don't think they operated in bad faith. I give them the benefit of the doubt. But you are incapable of doing the same regarding Obama and FOX. You are still accusing him of lying for an aid's misguided actions. Granted, raising the expectations was stupid. But lying? Not to mention, as Josh Marshall pointed out, it would have been even stupider to go through with it.

Everyone just needs to chill out a little. Most of us (including the candidates) are in this because we care.  


Good point on the double standard (0.00 / 0)
with WVWV and the unnamed Obama source and Fox.

[ Parent ]
This all comes down to (4.00 / 6)
you (and others) realizing that the blogosphere does not pull as much weight as you thought.

Why doesn't somebody (Matt, Chris, Kos) get on a conference call and ask the Obama campaign flat out what they think of the blogosphere and why they feel they should talk to Fox but not us. Say to them that you'd rather communicate through a back channel but they've closed the door on that so you have to confront them in front of the press.

Mention that we've endorsed them but they have made no effort to reach out to us. Make them uncomfortable. The press will write a process story about it and it will get their attention.


I feel conflicted (0.00 / 0)
Because I don't want to do things to hurt Obama and stop him from ending this fucking primary, but I really think something should be done to exert what little power the netroots have, if no other reason than to discover how much power we actually have, so we know where our position stands.

Former Edwards Supporter, Obama Supporter since January 30, 2008

[ Parent ]
I know what your talking about with the confilicted feeling. (0.00 / 0)
I'm just making the point, as I've been making on this blog all week, that the blogosphere is really just talk and academic discussion. There's no action.

It's great and interesting to discuss an issue but that doesn't do anything about it. I've been frustrated at the sphere because of this. There isn't even a googlebomb campaign for McCain yet. One of the easier things to put to together. Everybody's too busy talking about how their frustrated rather then turning that energy into action.


[ Parent ]
Lots of action (4.00 / 4)
There is lots of action. Firedoglake, MoveOn and others regularly have petition campaigns, or campaigns to call representatives on a particular issue, etc. Online social networks are being used to coordinate GOTV.

The real issue, I believe, is that we are a minority in our party. The VAST number of Democratic voters I talk to get ALL of their information from TV news. And they are horribly uninformed because of it.

Not everyone has the money to afford a broadband connection or the time to do much with it if they do.  


[ Parent ]
True. Good points. (0.00 / 0)
Sometimes I forget that a broadband connection and internet savvyness are not the norm throughout America. I guess I'm an elitist. ;)

A lot of this anxiety and frustration will subside if Obama has a good Tuesday next week.


[ Parent ]
And speaking of power (4.00 / 1)
What happened today with Rep. Ben Chandler should show that we can still make some noise.

[ Parent ]
uhhh.... (0.00 / 0)
You DO know where your position stands. Obama embraces the blogosphere when he needed the support in the primaries. But in the general election he sees the blogs as a massive liability and wants to distance himself. You know where you stand- you are just in denial about it.

[ Parent ]
Conference calls (4.00 / 1)
We don't get invited on their conference calls. We do get invited to the Clinton conference calls.

I have been waiting a week to hear back from one of their delegate guys on some questions I asked about their delegate count. Haven't heard a peep.  


[ Parent ]
Well... Then it looks like we need a counter. (0.00 / 0)
It worked for Fox.

Also. Are any of the campaigns going to be attending YearlyKos (or whatever it's being called now) this year like they did last year?


[ Parent ]
"we need to counter?" (0.00 / 0)
Are you kidding?  This is one of the few posts I've seen that hasn't been hijacked by the "Obama can do no wrong" crowd.  How do you counter when there are so few who are willing to admit that he and his campaign might not be perfect?

The left blogosphere has proven itself powerless in this presidential election because they became cheerleaders instead of critics (for both sides).  Digby said it best awhile back.  I hope some lessons have been learned from this experience and that we regain some sense of purpose beyond blind support.  Matt's post is a good beginning.


[ Parent ]
counter (4.00 / 1)
Recusancy didn't write "we need TO counter" but "we need A counter" as in "XXX number of days since Barack Obama posted on Kos". Though you make an excellent (if unrelated) point. This cycle has been much more about "rah rah go team" and less about setting the agenda, and that tendency has increased over time.

[ Parent ]
Oops! Sorry I misunderstood n/t (4.00 / 2)


[ Parent ]
that's exactly the point (0.00 / 0)
There is no conference call to get on. Independent activists are largely frozen out. Loyal organizers are integrated, but don't get to have their own voice. Fanboys get to repeat what's on tv and help raise money.

Suxxors for us. Still might win though, which would be cool.

Me | My Work | Future Majority


[ Parent ]
Funny (4.00 / 7)
You would entitle the post "quit acting like babies," then proceed to throw a tantrum.

Sorry everyone didn't chime in with universal attaboys on Inouye, Webb, or WVWV, but instead had the temerity to disagree with you guys.

Not that it's your fault.  Open Left is (or was) to my understanding, formed on the premise of hard-line, take no prisoners, brook no dissent progressivism.  We were all forewarned.

Today, the reaction to the Webb and Inouye posts tested that core philosophy with comments that actually embraced moderation.

With the WVWV thing, on the other hand, it was you guys making excuses and exceptions for friends.  

Bad day all around around here.


This post isn't take no prisoners progressivism (0.00 / 0)
It's a mockery of itself.

It's shoddy analysis (The Stevens Innoye connection is personal) combined with juvenile outrage.

Stoller needs to grow up.


[ Parent ]
Insiderism is contagious (4.00 / 4)
So Senator Webb should be condemned for giving his friend John McCain the benefit of the doubt on a piece of legislation, but WVWV should be given the benefit of the doubt because you know the people who work there and know them to be good people.  I don't know.  I think politics doesn't stop at the party's edge.  There are at least a few honest Republicans and at least a few dishonest Democrats.  And we should be at least as harsh with people who are supposed to be on our side (even if, or even more so, if they're our friends) as we are with those who have a different view of what is best for the country.

Voter Genome Project

yes (4.00 / 1)
So Senator Webb should be condemned for giving his friend John McCain the benefit of the doubt on a piece of legislation, but WVWV should be given the benefit of the doubt because you know the people who work there and know them to be good people.

Yes, because McCain is a demonstrated liar and WVWV is a demonstrated voter registration group.


[ Parent ]
I hate having to point that out (4.00 / 3)
But to me acting like a baby is throwing a tantrum because a candidate cannot always agree with you 100%.
You have been very cranky since Obama decided to go on Fox and while I understand where you are coming from, you have certainly versed into a very depressing cynicism.

The whole thing is ironic because I actually agree with all your points individually (well not WVWV. I am not saying it is a conspiracy but to deny there is something smacking of incompetence at the very least here is wrong).
I just don't understand how you can wrap them all up in a big bowl of resentment like that. I don't get it.
But I understand you are sharing your personal feelings and I hope you can go back to a more positive view of politics and politicians.
Pressure and criticism of them - including of Obama of whom I am a fan - is welcome and important. Considering everybody corrupt, elitist, despicable because he made a choice you disagree with is overreacting.

And there are some  fundamental contradictions in your post. You blame the Obama campaign for not talking to bloggers to keep them independent but then in the same breath you remind us how politicians are a different despicable kind of people and you don't want to be in the bag for any one of them.
I am confused.
In the same vein Obama is not an angel that can do no wrong and no presidential candidate is, it is not because WVWV is a progressive organization from the grassroots that it does not screw up or that it could not have mendacious intentions (not saying it does but pointing out the parallel).
I am confused there too.  


For the record (4.00 / 1)
I understand part of your crankiness is the knee-jerk and short-sighted reaction of some Obama supporters who attacked you when you criticized him instead of acknowledging his flawed decision or respectfully disagreeing.

Still. Not a justification for the overreaction


[ Parent ]
Disagree (4.00 / 1)
I interpreted the "crankiness" as being a reaction to a lot of things that have been happening for a long time, and the examples given were just the most current instances.

[ Parent ]
I must admit (0.00 / 0)
I am uninformed in regards to the WVWV controversy. I haven't seen the original criticism. Could someone link me, so I may educate myself?

Former Edwards Supporter, Obama Supporter since January 30, 2008

We've lost sight of our original mission (4.00 / 15)
The hour is late, so I'll be succinct.

OpenLeft was set up as a think-tank where progressives both Democrat and independent could hammer out how progressives could organize themselves into a serious force.  We did a decent job of it.

Now that the campaign has heated up, we've started seeing ourselves as players in the presidential race.  That's a trap.

Long ago, I said we had to quit thinking we were going to seriously impact the 2008 race, and focus on getting our shit together for 2010.  This generally met with dead silence, but I'll say it again.  We need to work out how we are going to become a force in 2010, when we'll still be hampered by right-wing Democrats who'll keep the impending Democratic president from being able to move a progressive agenda.

How we approach the current presidential race is significant, but it has turned into a treadmill.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


Agreed.on all points (4.00 / 5)
While having impact in 2008, and at this point mostly at the House level, 2010 and then 2012 and beyond will be the real test... and not just at the level of elections, but at the wider political and societal level. It's about changing the terms of the debate, not about coming out ahead -- or aheader -- in a given electoral cycle. (Of course, the longer it takes the likelier we may all implode due to a gambler's ruin scenario.) The "conservative" movement took decades to become the force that it became. It will take a while for progressive ideas, tactics and strategies to become mainstream in the same sense. I've become terribly used to Democrats playing it one election at a time pretty much in a vacuum. I've seen it locally and I've seen it nationally. It is a trap.

[ Parent ]
Frankly (4.00 / 4)
It's 5-10% of the people who comment who stoke the worst fires.  There is a huge amount of people who would be happy to have good debates here, but it often gets totally drowned out in the noise of people trolling for their candidate.

I don't know if there's a way around it while the primary is still going on, apart from changing the comment policy to massively ramp up troll-rating of people who are here for no other purpose than to support their candidate and knock down the other.  


I know this frustration... (4.00 / 2)
I've had it pretty bad when Obama didn't do what I wanted him to do.  Most of the time it boiled down to the fact that he wasn't ME.  What kind of asshole tries to do what he thinks is best, when instead he could be ME?

Sure he isn't as progressive as you or Chris (or me), but if he gets elected and moves us toward more open and ethical government, I still believe the sunshine on the facts will breed a more progressive agenda, and move the ball in our direction.  

My only disappointment with the timing of this bitter frustration, is that an Obama defeat next week will do more damage toward potential progressive movement than any Fox news appearance or "nice-talk" about John McCain.

But I shouldn't complain, unfortunately you and Chris aren't ME either!


misunderstanding (0.00 / 0)
Sure he isn't as progressive as you or Chris (or me), but if he gets elected and moves us toward more open and ethical government, I still believe the sunshine on the facts will breed a more progressive agenda, and move the ball in our direction.  

Where is the evidence this is what he'll do?


[ Parent ]
It's one of the few things (4.00 / 3)
he's passed legislation on repeatedly.  Ethics reform in Illinois, death-penalty interrogation transparency in Illinois, ethics reform in Washington, transparency/open government in Washington.  If there's one thing I know he at least seems to care about, it's open government and ethics reform!

[ Parent ]
That's my impression as well (4.00 / 2)
And my understanding is that he's invested political capital in these efforts as well.

Matt, what's your basis for believing that he won't?  


[ Parent ]
dear Matt: take yr own advice (4.00 / 2)
Please, sit down, take a deep breath, and stop reading your frustrations into all of our voices.  It ain't fair to generalize Obama supporters.  People who were critical of WVWV are not neccessarily the same folks who rationalize any mistake or crappy thing Obama does.  And they don't all just have one reason for being irritated and/or up in arms.  

And you guys need to be more patient.  That has nothing to do with giving Obama too much slack, or more slack than someone else.  There are perfectly good reasons for trusting Obama -- albeit with reservations.  We need to see what happens.  I think for a lot of people, having a President Obama is a cause for which we will de-prioritize (but not forget) some (but not all) of the causes we fight for day-to-day, every day.  That means we accept a little compromise and give our boy the support it takes to wade through a crocodile-filled swamp to retrieve the Decider's Hat.  That does not mean we have prostituted ourselves.  Please... calm down.


I'm tired, too (4.00 / 8)
I'm tired of good progressive bloggers acting like babies.  Emotional, unhelpful posts are written by front-pagers and site founders, tearing down the Democratic candidate they don't like and propping up the one they do.  Ad hominem attacks in comments are (somewhat) selectively regulated, based on the candidate/candidate supporter they attack. Polls are picked over endlessly to identify trends ("momentum") within margins of error.  Real issues, like Net Neutrality, the Farm bill and the upcoming Democratic-led Iraq funding bill, are given short shrift.  Who cares if one  or two of the major progressive platforms is about to be knocked down by the Democratically controlled Congress?  There's a new poll showing the candidates beating McCain by different pitifully low numbers!  

And now, Mr. Stoller, you are yelling at us, the people who read your site, the members of your community.  You say we act like babies, and are too quick to fawn over politicians who don't want our support, and don't even respect us. There are certainly "over the top" campaign supporters and trolls on the progressive blogs, but the founders and moderators of these sites have set the tone and encourage just that sort of toxic environment.  They started this vicious, ridiculous fight to protect their preferred Democrat, without asking anything of the campaigns.  

You know who's not commenting much on the blogs anymore?  People like me, who pledged on day one to support the eventual Democratic nominee, and who still feel that way.  I support Obama in the primary, but wish them both the best and just want a Democratic president.  Clinton and Obama are just politicians, and neither are perfect or even really progressive.  But sentiments like these are pretty much ignored in the progressive blogs.  

I feel let down.  The de facto leaders of this movement started this vicious primary flame war, and continue to fan the flames even as they protest to support the Democratic nominee.  How do you think this primary could have gone, if you guys, who are some of the best minds in the movement, had all banded together and spent this time pushing campaigns for more concessions to progressives in the party?  Or worked to brand (progressive) Democrats positively in the national press?  What kind of narratives about a powerful, progressive Democratic Party united against Republic greed and corruption might we have seen?  Instead, we are subject to stupid pie fights, leaving the DNC to be the only one running ads against McCain.  Why couldn't we do that, too?  Aren't we the "creative class"?

Now that you've attacked your readers, when are you going to call out the de facto leaders of the progressive community for the incredible damage they have done? Or better yet, kick their butts into action!  Let's make some ads, get some fax/phone/op-ed campaigns into gear.  We don't have to wait until we have a nominee to do some good.   There's still time, but where's the will from the progressive leadership to lead, at least by example?


Dailykos wouldn't run a front page analysis of top Dem candidates (0.00 / 0)
during the entire early stages of the primary season. instead they left analysis and discussion of the candidates and their records and proposals to the festering cesspool called dairies. when it was suggested that the front page writers should show leadership and get into who the candidates are, they repeatedly said to go write a diary. Markos has no fucking clue how formulate a large scale long lasting national influence. rather than harness and consolidate the energy of his readership he let it turn in on itself until people of quality and reason started leaving the site. when the editors were criticized for neglecting the degradation of the site they sneered back at their readers and critics. this post troubles me in its familiarity of those times.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
Your "festering cesspool" is the people (0.00 / 0)
The "intelligent serious people" didn't recommend intelligent serious diaries so they left.

That's smart leadership. (snark)

The problem Markos has is that he's a decent but middling writer himself. His front pagers are mostly decent but middling writers too, with several notable exceptions.

What's he going to do?

Matt's a WATB.

What's he going to do?


[ Parent ]
Re: (4.00 / 4)
The fundamental error the blogosphere has made this election season is getting caught up in individuals and their foibles rather than the goals of the movement.

I used to be an Edwards supporter and it very little to do with the guy as an individual, although I like him.  It was based on my belief that he was the most electable candidate (debatable) running the most progressive campaign (not really debatable) and that the best way for progressives to accomplish progressives goals is to win the Presidency with a message like Edwards'.

None of this had anything to do with his qualities as a person, whether he's deeply sincere on these issues or just a slick trial lawyer, whether he spends too much on houses and haircuts.  From my perspective, the important part was the message, not whether I could find the perfect candidate to fall in love with.  A lot of Edwards supporters felt the same way which is why you didn't see us wasting a lot of time trying to defend his war vote and all that.

But in this Clinton-Obama thing, we've lost sight of the message and the overarching goals of the movement.  We've lost our ability to put aside our love or hate for specific individuals and simply call bullshit when it's warranted.  Matt's criticism of Obama for the Fox News thing is striking because it's precisely what the blogosphere used to do and never does any more.  It used to be that if Russ Feingold cast a bad vote, we called it a bad vote.  It used to be that if Barbara Boxer sponsored a bad bill, we called it a bad bill.  Well, actually, we still do those things with regard to Feingold and Boxer - just not with our likely nominee for President of the United States.  Instead, when Matt criticizes Obama for a bit of gameplaying on the Fox issue - and really, that's all this is about, this is not a big issue in the scheme of things - there's all this circling the wagons, defending Obama to the death, flat-out refusal to admit that Obama could ever do wrong.  And this wouldn't be happening if we kept our eye on the ball and focused on the progressive movement instead of investing all our hopes in Sen. Obama to be the progressive President we all dream of.

And it goes without saying that the converse applies to Sen. Clinton, who can never get a fair shake even when she does something beneficial for the progressive movement, which she's done any number of times throughout this campaign.  If Ben Nelson did something great for the progressive cause we'd thank him for it.  That's how it ought to work.  


[ Parent ]
is it possible (4.00 / 4)
to actually NOT believe the Fox issue mattered (my position) without being accused of having a blind love fest with Obama and having betrayed the entire left wing blogosphere?

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
boo hoo hoo (0.00 / 0)


Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

you just don't get it (0.00 / 0)
Obama is saying you don't matter.

[ Parent ]
I feel so hurt (4.00 / 1)
Obama hurts my feelings. He said it last night on CNN, I just don't matter to him. I've done sooooooo much for him over the years to ingratiate myself and now he's betrayed me.

If I want to matter to Obama more so than other average American's matter to Obama at this moment in time I guess I have to do something to warrant that. I bet harping on silly squabbles like an imaginary Fox network boycott in the middle of a Presidential Race Death Match is not going to qualify.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
right (4.00 / 2)
Delegitimizing Fox News, which all of us did, is important and has been helpful to Obama.  Moveon's $600k was helpful.  It doesn't matter, we'll get knee-capped because we don't show due deference.

[ Parent ]
Y'all are taking a beating today, it's true (4.00 / 1)
Yeah, it's hard being out of step w/the community. I'm with you (though I also think the WVWV thing is still a little stinky) but I think the answer is to realize when you've lost and move on.

Until the general anti-mccain campaign can kick in, we're effectively out of this except as a math resource. This campaign is being run via the mass media now, and there's not much we can do about it.

So that's life. I had a strong feeling back in January of last year that this presidential cycle would be boring -- not un-dramatic or without consequence, but without real opportunities for people like us to get meaningfully involved -- and so it has been.

Now's a good time to take a vacation, or else to start working on something local, or niche, or longer-term. The presidential stuff is going to get swept up into a big mass organization, and a small cabal of elitists will be at the controls, same as it ever was. Don't let the bastards grind you down.

Me | My Work | Future Majority


IMHO, the biggest problems this cycle for the blogosphere: (4.00 / 7)
1. The failure of the most vociferous partisans of both Clinton and Obama to recognize and accept the fact that good, liberal, and reasonable Democrats can come to different conclusions on the question of who to support for President.   These vociferous supporters then foment tribalism, since the resulting attacks, especially as the campaign went on, only strengthen what readers already believed when they came into the "discussion."

2.  The resulting tribalism then increases the chances of isolation as the campaign inevitably degenerates into attacks that one side genuinely sees as reasonable, while the other side genuinely sees as beyond the pale.  Most of the "discussions" about race, sexism, and Rev. Wright would fall into this category.  Additionally, as the "discussions" degenerate, people who are not ardent Clinton or Obama supporters get more frustrated and in many cases tune out the blogosphere altogether.

3.  Ultimately as a result of all the anger, energy, and screenspace (?) taken up by the presidential primary, worthy causes and local candidates, where the blogosphere could make a real difference, get ignored.  The fanatics are too busy fighting the presidential primary battle using nearly every available space, leaving the non-fanatics no where left to turn.  


Stop having so much contempt for us (0.00 / 0)
I know you just consider us stupid sheeple idiot sycophantic babies, but I don't think that is constructive.

The liberal wiki
Send an email to terra@liberalwiki.com


Obama (0.00 / 0)
I don't have contempt for you, Obama does.  That's why I talk with you every single day, and he won't deign to talk to you ever.

That I tell you things you don't like is why you think I have contempt for you, but that actually shows that I respect you far more.


[ Parent ]
He does talk to me. (4.00 / 2)
I get emails everday, and I bitch and moan and give advice via email/his website/and calling his campaign. Remember liquid coal?  He took our advice on that one.  It's just that I didn't have the expectation that he would give out and take advice using the vehicle of our websites.  Maybe they'd be smart to do that, but I don't think they have to, they've done pretty well without using that medium.  So it's not that he's not talking to me, he's just not doing it through openleft. If you think that's the same thing as contempt you've got a pretty big chip on your shoulder.

[ Parent ]
Bullshit (0.00 / 0)
Obama's events are open to everyone.

All leading campaigns are carefully scripted because every word is inspected with a microscope.

Both Obama and Clinton are running as centrists.

They aren't coming here.

Get over it.

Crybaby.


[ Parent ]
Your hypocrisy is astonishing here, Matt. (0.00 / 0)
From what my brother in law Franz M. has told me (but we're a family of idiots, so take it w. a grain of salt), you were a raging conservative YOURSELF at one time.
   Yet Obama's not allowed to reap potential votes out of Fox news audience, because only geniuses such as yourself are allowed to change political course?  

[ Parent ]
Franz? (0.00 / 0)
Franz M. was misinformed.

[ Parent ]
Certainly, it's demonstrably true of Arianna Huffington. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Wrap it up in bubble gum (3.64 / 11)
And send it to the navy.

You offer a reflexive defense of WVWV but don't mention that the story came out in Facing South, a strong institutional left resource published by the Institute for Southern Studies. Some people reflexively believe Facing South. You reflexively believe WVWV. That's reacting, not thinking. Calling the group of people who reflexively believe ISS "babies" while you state you reflexively believe WVWV doesn't seem very consistent. The lefties YOU know are all ethical but the lefties other people know are all wrong?

You go bananas over the 83-year old Inouye headlining a fundraiser for the 84-year old Stevens, suggesting it's some kind of telling signal and symptomatic of a larger problem of the Democratic Party. The signature event of both men's political lives was the state they represent being admitted to the union. In 1959. It's not a telling example of the perils of post-partisanship in 2008. You reposted your same "post-partisanship sucks" post we see twice a week using the Inouye-Stevens example and then sat there proudly like you'd just pulled a plumb out of a pie. When people pointed out that maybe Inouye-Stevens isn't really an example of 1970s bipartisanship (more like post-WWII era 48-state American politics) you go ballistic. Two octagenarian pols representing the only two states outside the continental US, who were older than you are now when there were only 48 states, are the very definition of outliers. You make good points about post-partisanship but Inouye & Stevens are not the droids you are looking for.

As for Obama and your blunderbuss attack on his communications shop, why do you care? You've said yourself Obama's got the best internet and tech policies to help you do your job. If you want to be bestest buddies with his communictions team, you probably shouldn't have called the guy names for 18 months. Rev. Wright called him "a politician doing what a politician does" and got kicked to the curb. You called him a hell of a lot worse than that and now act suprised that you're not invited in on his conference calls? Hold President Obama accountable for enacting his tech and net neutrality promises and I'm sure he'll support your right to call him and every other politician every name in the book using those same tools. Net neutrality and Obama's cold shoulder seem like the best combo available to you at the moment but feel free to hold out for the pony candidate of your dreams.

The entire concept message discipline and catapulting the propaganda is bullshit anyway and most left blogs have been railing against it for years. Now left blogs are somehow upset that they are not being asked to man the catapults? I don't get it. It's a GOOD thing that Obama isn't sending out talking points to bloggers. It hurts your credibility to be spewing talking points for any candidate. Speak to the issues, use your brain, and have a consistent set of ethics and you don't need talking points.

If you're pissed off at the contempt blogs get shown from institutions then send Congress more like people like Donna Edwards. Everything else in your post sounds like it was written after you dropped your binky noo noo in the dirt. Suck it up man.

John McCain


right on joejoejoe (4.00 / 1)
You get the prize....I agree after what they did to Obama at the beginning because of the Joe Trippi/Edwards connection was outrageous. on the other hand....This is a great site and Matt and Chris are brilliant.......I really believe that.......I am still waiting for the Clinton on O'Reilly diary and rant, probably won't see it .........
Many in the Obama camp see that as a slight and they know that Edwards was the prefered candidate, which is fine, BUT,...Edwards is out and there is ....in my opinion still anger towards Obama about that.......wierd but true!

[ Parent ]
Spot on (0.00 / 0)
Spot on perfect.
Stoller needs to take this to heart, as long as KOS, Stoller, Jerome, et al behave like children they will treated like children.

[ Parent ]
you just don't get it (0.00 / 0)
I am way more responsive to you than anyone on the Obama campaign.  They. Do. Not. Care. About. You.

If you want to pretend like this is personal, fine.  Just try influencing them in any way.


[ Parent ]
You act like it is personal. (4.00 / 2)
Thety don't care about YOU persoanlly. They DO care about the grassroots. The Obama campaign is one of the most inclusive campaigns I have ever seen. The whole thing is based on grassroots organizing. Ask anyone who actually volunteered for them, their motto "respect, empower, include" is really how they approach this campaign. But as Axelrod said, they decided very early on there arn't going to be any assholes in this campaign. No room for prima donnas. That's why you hardly ever hear the "insiders bickering" stories from the Obama campaing.

He is not courting the so-called leaders of the netroots, boo hoo. Most of the readers/commenters of the blogoshpere are included in the campaign. They don't feel dissed at all and I don't feel left out either. You want respect? Show some respect.


[ Parent ]
show me (0.00 / 0)
They DO care about the grassroots.

Show me one area where Obama has led on something that the grassroots asked for without extreme pressure.  Show me.

He likes his fanboys, for sure.


[ Parent ]
The blogoshpere is just a very small subset of the netroots. (4.00 / 2)
Wchich in turn, is an even smaller subset of the grassroots. You can't equate not paying attention to the blogoshpere with not caring about the grassroots. The whole campaign is based on organizing.

True, they don't give prominence to the blogoshpere. I might add, for very solid reasons. The blogosphere is fickle and completely unreliable. It has obviously different objectives than the campaign. And it doesn't add much value to his organization.

They could take outreach more seriously. We should have a working alliance with the campaign by now. They might just be waiting for the primaries to be over, though. It still doesn't mean they don't care. They probably concluded that the negatives of engaging the blogoshpere outweigh the positives. They have a job to do. They have to win an election. You can debate the merits of that argument. But it is not personal. They HAVE to view this from the perspective of the campaign.  


[ Parent ]
He Leads on Net Neutrality (0.00 / 0)
Extreme pressure hasn't brought the other candidate to his level of leadership on net neutrality.

I like reality based dialogues.

I'm happy to have a friendly discussion with Clinton supporters if there are facts and ideas to discuss.

However, the facts don't seem to be of any interest to you any more.


[ Parent ]
C'mon Matt (4.00 / 3)
You need to chill out, maybe take a break for a couple days or something.  You sound dangerously close to losing the plot.  Your basic points are perfectly reasonable, but it's tough to accept that someone's got a clear head when he keeps yelling at people about how he respects them, berates them for not understanding, and then talks to them like 4 year olds.

People can reasonably disagree about many of these points.  I agree that a lot of the disagreement lately is not "reasonable" but it drives people absolutely up the wall when they are painted with a broad brush and accused of being sheep because they don't happen to agree with you on everything.

It's not like it's your responsibility to track every poster and determine whether they consistently run rings around the truth, but at the same time as one of the site's leaders I do think you need to accept that a lot of people post here and the noise often sounds a lot crazier than the overwhelming majority of posters actually are.

Imagine if the tone of the Fox News front page posts had been: "here are the reasons I think it's a bad idea, and was especially discouraged given the quote from the aide which led me to believe it would be a real fight instead of a cordial interview."  And especially if y'all had admitted that the counter arguments could hold some water.  And especially especially if you could have taken the opportunity to try and persuade people about why the Fox blackout had worked, was necessary, etc. instead of just taking for granted that everyone already knew it to be true.

If that had happened, I would have had no reason to complain at all.  In fact, I imagine that only the folks who genuinely aren't interested in hearing legitimate criticism would argue with that.  But when you consistently bluster, and then get riled up and post again and again without making new arguments, people who believe differently do tend to get angry.  It's not that hard to figure out why.


[ Parent ]
I believe the Obama campaign ... (4.00 / 2)
still includes ABC's people on their calls.

[ Parent ]
Um, I didn't just reflexively believe Facing South. I spoke (4.00 / 2)
on the phone with someone who'd been convinced she needed some kind of packet to vote.
    It made me sick to my stomach, and I don't appreciate being told I shouldn't be seriously upset. We're talking about a historically disenfranchised community here.
     I'm pretty taken aback that Stoller, Chart, and co. can't seem to comprehend the resulting distress.

[ Parent ]
try (1.33 / 6)
Try learning something about voter registration instead of getting upset at something that happens every single cycle.

WVWV can defend themselves, and they obviously made big errors.  The ignorance here about politics is just stunning.  People complain about everything, everything, the point is you have to determine the truth before throwing wild accusations of systematic voter disenfranchisement around.  Or do you actually want 400,000 women to go unregistered?

Idiot.


[ Parent ]
Thanks for that. (4.00 / 2)
This is the respect you show? Maybe it happens every single cycle, but given I talked to someone in a specific state in a specific group that had been targeted, it PISSED ME OFF to hear about those phone calls.

        Sorry if I'm stupid enough to actually CARE about individuals rather than statistics. I'm sure you won't care that you have one less reader to your site, but I think you just violated your OWN site protocols, jerk. You don't care about your own readers; why in hell should you expect anyone else to?
  I'm the idiot here and not the people making these false robocalls? Given NC has the luxury of same day registration, what calibre of fuck up is this?

You don't think this kind of thing makes people cynical about the whole process? I guess that won't be a big, quantifiable number, so it doesn't matter to you.

         


[ Parent ]
P.S. So much for your belief in hraggroots, people-powered (4.00 / 2)
movements. I'm a moron for volunteering my own personal time, because I'm not paid to do so on a massive scale. Self-
important hypocrite!
        You value institutions over people, clearly. and that kinda sucks for someone in your line of work.

[ Parent ]
Your personal attack debased this site (2.00 / 2)
SB has worked with me in NC to register voters.

Barack Obama supporters have led a huge voter registration effort here. We have provided accurate information to voters of all stripes.

SB has happily registered a senior disabled Hillary supporter who voted Republican in previous elections by canvassing disabled housing in the rain.

And you call her an idiot.

You debased yourself in front of all of us.

She used to respect you.

I used to respect you.

No more.

You think you're smart because you went to Harvard and John Kerry's prep school. And you probably are.

But your immaturity diminishes all the work you do.

Grow up.


[ Parent ]
Matt, please! (4.00 / 2)
Idiot.

If you keep this up, you'll have to ban yourself.  Seriously, it really pains me to see you tearing down what you've done so much to build.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


[ Parent ]
It't time someone defended US! (0.00 / 0)
Jesus! If the Rethuglicans ever  did this you wouldn't hear a peep from them! Dam! Damn! Damn! Progressives are always being so righteous and MORAL! Look folks POLITICS isn't a kindergarten playground game everything musn't be fair. Our first reaction sholud always be to DEFEND OUR BASE, now are you ready..... RIGHT or WRONG. You know when your busy attacking and bad mouthing the actions of a particular group because you believe in the importance of being MORAL you may also end up being defensless yourself when you need defenders! I can best explain my point with the Kennedy fixation with getting HOFFA. In the process he also laid the ground work for the dismantling of the entire Union movement. So he got Hoffa allright, then Reagan got the Flight controllers. We all know what's been happening to the unions ever since. So be careful what you wish for! Matt is soooooo right on this one. Defend you base at all times if you don't who will?!

Don't agree with all your points.... (4.00 / 1)
.....but this one's been bothering me for awhile:

And then there are the number of people who take issue with a basic request for competence at the Obama campaign with regards to communications.  People apparently don't want Obama sending out talking points or talking to bloggers, preferring that bloggers stay independent.  Well excuse me, why do you think Obama surrogates suck on TV?  They aren't getting fucking talking points, you idiots.  How do you think this works?

Something is wrong with Obama's communications effort. I see Claire McCaskill out there alot, Kerry occasionally, and that's about it. Doesn't seem like they even have an official spokesperson, except for Axelrod. Don't know what's happening on the blogger side of it but, from what I've read, they never hear from Obama's people while Hillary's people are always on their asses (a mixed blessing, I've heard, because Hillary's people are usually pretty obnoxious).

Anyway, agree with that point wholeheartedly.


Ditto (0.00 / 0)
As an Obama supporter, I was really appalled at the close-mindedness of the many Obama supporters here who reacted to a clear straightforward suggestion of something the campaign could do better by saying "NONONONONONONONO YOU DONT UNDERSTAND CLINTON SUX0RS YOUR A LOSER".



[ Parent ]
thanks for saying it (0.00 / 0)
Agree almost 100% - Webb/McCain, Inouye/Stephens, Obama/Fox.  WVWV being the exception.  The left blogosphere has worked hard, and nearly alone, to keep voter suppression alive as an issue and having one of ours caught on the wrong side of that hurts the cause the same way Obama going on Fox hurts the cause of marginalizing Fox.

But that's a quibble.  You hit the nail pretty squarely on the head.  Serenity now.  Remember, the primary will be over some day.  


Lack of respect (4.00 / 1)
Anecdotally I can support what Matt's saying.  They don't respect us.

Time to cut off the funds to the campaigns.  

Donate instead to Blogpac.  

As a reader not based in DC, it would be great to get a little more transparency on who our allies are.  Often times writers get excited abotu candidates like Webb, but later on its not clear who really takes Markos's or your phone calls.  

For people who aren't based in DC, we don't really know  which politicians think we are a joke.  That would be a great piece of info to have as we decide who to support.  


agreed (4.00 / 2)
As a reader not based in DC, it would be great to get a little more transparency on who our allies are.  Often times writers get excited abotu candidates like Webb, but later on its not clear who really takes Markos's or your phone calls.  

For people who aren't based in DC, we don't really know  which politicians think we are a joke.  That would be a great piece of info to have as we decide who to support.

QFT. I too could use this information. That's what the blogs used to be best at, dishing out information you can't find anywhere else. Now it's more like the same information you get from the main media, only a little bit faster.

It's no coincidence that I've dropped several of the indie blogs I used to read each day like MyDD and replaced them with the likes of Politico and First Read. Guys, tell me more about the next Donna Edwards, Foster/Boswell, and Darcy Burner.

And final thoughts: once Obama clinches the nomination you're going to see a lot of his support turn clear-eyed. Right now too many people are caught up in the urgency of him getting past Clinton, afraid to offer any criticism for fear that it'll hurt him against her, and once that hurdle's been cleared, we won't be so slow to call him on his errors. Which he has been making with frustrating regularity since Wisconsin.


[ Parent ]
and what if something happens and Hillary... (4.00 / 1)
ends up with the nomination?  The hatred for her on the liberal blogs has been so out of proportion to her sins that we (the party) will never be able to recover by November.

[ Parent ]
Agreed (0.00 / 0)
Clinton is not a progressive, and Obama MAY be a progressive who MAY move the country away from its weird 30 year cloud of conservative governance. Given how partisan we are, it only takes that subtle difference to push us to Obama.  

Like I said, once Obama is the nominee i think a different rules of engagement will take form with the Obama camp.  For now, we're irrelevant, but down the road we may not be if we can organize.  


[ Parent ]
Reminder: we are your customers. n/t (0.00 / 0)


bah (4.00 / 2)
I don't know what you're paying to access this site, I get it for free.

[ Parent ]
Thank you (4.00 / 1)
for these comments and for the refreshing bit of sanity.

Everyday for the last few months I've considered giving up completely on the netroots.  But I can't do it.  I've had to stop telling people to come to these web sites (something I used to do all the time -- you'd be amazed at how many people have no idea about the netroots), and I've had to tell friends to please not judge me by what they are reading on the netroots lately, particularly dkos.  I keep thinking that the group of people I've allied with for the last several years, the ones I've known and respected, both in person and online, will be back soon.  Because, frankly, I don't know where they've gone, and I hardly recognize the netroots I once knew.  

Before I found the netroots, I never had a way to feel like I could make a difference.  I really want us to find our way again.  I don't give up on people easily (and that's an understatement).  It takes a lot to really insult and offend me.  But I'm this close now, for a hundred different reasons.

This is still a new medium and we are a new coalition and we are learning a lot of lessons.  Bringing about change and reform will be a lifetime challenge.  We happened to come into this process at a time when big changes were possible, and the netroots has gained influence relatively quickly.  I think we've made incredible inroads in the last few years, but I also think we've lost a lot of ground in the last few months, for a lot of reasons.

I don't know where this is all going, but I'm sticking around, for now.  I'm supporting our nominee to the end, no matter how pissed off I am about things that have happened.  It's too important to let petty things and egos interfere.  There are going to be compromises and nobody is going to get exactly what they want, and we have to seek progress, not perfection.  We have to remember that we've got short term goals and we've got long term goals, and there are two separate jobs to be done.  Our short term goal is to get a democrat into the White House and increase our majorities in Congress.  Our long term goals are many, and we all know what they are.


Yikes (0.00 / 0)
I am so tired of the angry rants. I think I'm done with this blog. MyDD is looking pretty good by comparison right now.

I hope you're being ironic. (4.00 / 1)
Open Left has a long way to go before it turns into the monkey cage that MyDD has become. As far as I know, OL hasn't had to put up multiple front page posts reminding people to keep civil, and purging scores of unruly commenters. Right now, anyway, OL is still part of a rapidly shrinking pool of relatively sane political blogs.

[ Parent ]
A few suggestons (0.00 / 0)
Try TheArtOfThePossible.com or FreedomDemocrats.com. Both are left-libertarian leaning. Both are very well written. Neither one tends to scold its readers the way Matt is here doing.  

[ Parent ]
As Atrios is fond of saying (4.00 / 1)
It's not about you, Matt.  It's not about me either.  Am I disappointed?  Hell yeah I am.  I'm still pissed about the Faux News thing.  But try to have some perspective.

No, Obama doesn't care about you.  Right now, I wouldn't either, because you're being a WATB.

Whenever you have the urge to write something about the elections, I suggest you stop, walk away from the computer, and come back with some awesome policy stuff.

I had some actual points to make beyond this, but it's early and I'm cranky.  So I'm going to take my own advice and go do something else.


this is a tough time for progressives (0.00 / 0)
The prolonged primary process allows the media to pound us, and it's hard for EITHER Hillary or Obama to hit back because it means turning their back to their competitor.

Hillary pushing the Wright stuff isn't good.  The Obama camp doesn't seem to have great morale.  I have my preferences, but I REALLY don't want to get into an Obama vs. Hillary thing right now.

The fact is that when things get tough, it's not uncommon for people to start turning on each other.  I don't mind the debates.  I'm concerned about the level of bitterness directed at each other.

Before taking your next shot, take a deep breath, and think about the fact that your target is likely going to be standing by your side come September.

Full Court Press!  http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


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