Obama and Nukes: Why Is This News?

by: Chris Bowers

Thu Aug 02, 2007 at 15:55


So, Obama says that he won't nuke Afghanistan or Pakistan:

Democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama said Thursday he would not use nuclear weapons "in any circumstance" to fight terrorism in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

"I think it would be a profound mistake for us to use nuclear weapons in any circumstance," Obama said, with a pause, "involving civilians." Then he quickly added, "Let me scratch that. There's been no discussion of nuclear weapons. That's not on the table."

Obama was responding to a question by the Associated Press about whether there was any circumstance where he would be prepared or willing to use nuclear weapons in Afghanistan and Pakistan to defeat terrorism and al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

Um, OK. Do we live in a sick enough country where swearing off the use of nuclear weapons against poor countries from South Asia at which we are not at war (although we are occupying one) is somehow worthy of note?   Is this, for some reason, a radical enough position to be worthy of news? Apparently it is, since there are now over 400 results for "Barack Obama" nuclear on Google News.  The reason, as Jerome explains at MyDD, is because it seems someone in the "mainstream" press corps is leaking things to Drudge, who then quotes Obama out of contest:

It's also telling of a shift in the way that the press is handling Obama now. When a politician says "strike that" it's supposed to mean a 'do-over' that isn't brought out into the public by the reporter. This was dished to Drudge with the lead out of context in order to cause maximum harm.

There is definitely a media feeding frenzy on Obama and foreign policy right now. Partially, it is his own doing, as the campaign has been issuing several missives on the subject lately. Also, partially it is residue from the "spat" with Clinton, as it is being called.
 

This latest, Drudge fueled attack against him, however, is just plain crap and demonstrates three things.  First, despite massive Republican electoral and poll setbacks, right-wing media infrastructure has not gone anywhere.  Second, while the institutions that put Republicans in power are still in place, conservatives have clearly grown extremely tone deaf as to developing a successful, policy-oriented attack.  Does anyone seriously think that Obama will take a hit in the poll because he said he won't nuke Pakistan and Afghanistan?  To state that you would consider nuking Pakistan and Afghanistan is absolutely fucking insane, and I imagine has minimal support nationwide (Seriously--some polling outfit see how nuking other countries polls.)  This actually bring me to my final point: why on Earth is it news that a Democratic presidential candidate would say this?  To rephrase that question: why hasn't every single Democratic candidate for president sworn off using nuclear weapons as a means to "combat terrorism." I cannot emphasize enough how utterly insane the idea of pre-emptively nuking anyone to take out a terrorist cell is.  That it isn't well known that all Democrats are against this idea is stunning.  That some Democrats might even still ponder using nuclear weapons in such a way is even scarier.  That this idea is taken seriously in the American press, instead of being rejected outright as utterly deranged, is incredibly frightening.

Shudder. It should not be news that someone is opposed to pre-emptively nuking a country in order to "fight terrorism." It should be as normal as the sun rising. It should only be news when someone suports, or even considers, that position.

Chris Bowers :: Obama and Nukes: Why Is This News?

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I think that the caveat (0.00 / 0)
is telling:

"involving civilians"

I think that the elephant in Obama's head is that he's trying to leave a door open if he's ever asked whether he would be willing to use tactical nuclear weapons to take out underground installations like those Al Qaeda had at Tora Bora in 2001.

At that time, Rep. Steven Buyer floated a test balloon suggesting that it might be necessary to use tactical nukes against those caves in order to kill Bin Laden during an interview with an Indianapolis TV station.

Since that time the DoD has been working feverishly to create robust nuclear earth penetrating devices, tactical nukes designed to breach what conventional explosives can not.

In the last few year, local opposition in Nevada and Indiana ended the "Divine Strake" tests meant to simulate the effects of an tactical nuke strike against an underground target, but it's clear that the DoD sees a role for tactical nukes against underground targets.

I think the question we need to ask is if Sen. Obama does as well.


i would be interested to know (0.00 / 0)
how long ago obama planned to give the speech he gave yesterday on terrorism. after last monday's CNN/youtube debate was seemingly the first time he got aggressive in the sense of  trying to distance himself from clinton and be his own man. people scored their "spat" the rest of the week differently with some saying he won, others saying clinton. but if obama decided to give yesterday's speech recently, i think it makes clinton look stronger because she essentially forced him to give a hawkish speech because, well, she is a hawk and is the frontrunner.

i agree with you that he has brought this feeding frenzy upon himself but if he keeps a strong face and doesnt back down, i think this attention will only help him. thoughts?


Attention for Obama (0.00 / 0)
His rhetoric has caught my attention. But I don't see how that can help him.
He has had plenty of attention. He has collected plenty of money. What has been lacking is serious critical attention paid to his actions, his legislative record and his statements.

I also would like to have the opportunity to remind these candidates that they should be running a campaign directed against the horrific policies of the last seven years. When they start aiming at each other is when I realize how self-centered and shallow they are.


[ Parent ]
Not good (0.00 / 0)
I'm not getting involving in the Bot Wars.

But it strikes me that, if Bush had done the same thing - promised not to nuke somewhere, then added a proviso, then withdrawn the proviso (but only kinda-sorta)- the lefty sphere would have been all over him!

If the USA Today piece is a fair reflection of what happened, it's a less than stellar performance - and no Clinton Cleavage, either.

We should, I suppose, rejoice that a Dem pol is prepared to identify a country with respect to which nukes are not 'on the table'.

Of course, there's no rule that says that something that's currently not on the table can't be put on said table. Obama says it hasn't been discussed: inarticulate but suggested is a kinda-sorta corrollary that, once it has been discussed, then it could go on the table.

What Obama has given is a non-commitment commitment.


JTA... (0.00 / 0)
On the basic issue, I'm surprised that Chris is surprised.

Ever since Truman lost China, Dem prez candidates (not all but most) have been outdoing themselves on the military macho front - at least, since JFK (I don't think Adlai was much in that line, but I'm open to correction on that). Even Dukakis got in that tank.

And the ones that didn't didn't do so well.

So the competition amongst Dem pols to lick the furthest up the AIPAC rectum and support bringing the world to Democracy at gunpoint has become ever more intense.

Obama's delivery was crappy - but his message on nuking (potentially, any time, anywhere) got through notwithstanding.

Situation normal.

When Chris says

To state that you would consider nuking Pakistan and Afghanistan is absolutely fucking insane, and I imagine has minimal support nationwide

I beg leave to doubt; if the question posited an opportunity to kill Bin Laden in the 'stans only possible through loosing nukes, I'd expect a handsome majority in favor.

[ Parent ]
Civilians (0.00 / 0)
He didn't completely renounce nuclear weapons.  He did say he wouldn't use them against civilians.  The implication is that he would be open to using them against military targets.

Do I think he or any other Democratic candidate is going to nuke anyone?  No.  Not even Bush has done that.  I think the reason it's made the news is the caveat and apparant backtracking.  It fits in with Clinton's main contention that he isn't prepared to be Commander-in-Chief.


Perhaps there is a physicist... (0.00 / 0)
Perhaps there is a physicist who can tell me how a nuclear weapon can be used under any circumstances that will not harm civilians.
Can the effects of a nuclear device even be contained within the boundaries of the country in which it was detonated?

I am what used to be a democrat. I want candidates to talk about banning nuclear weapons - not talking about the circumstances under which they would or would not use them.


[ Parent ]
I'm Glad Obama isn't a Script Reader (4.00 / 3)
This is the best take I've seen on this non-story all day.  Certainly better than hair-trigger posts on some other blogs (coughs) about this issue.

Though I'm still an Edwards supporter, I have a new-found respect for Obama.  His natural instinct is to think the use of nuclear weapons is absurd, but his political gameplay had him back-peddling.  You can tell that political gameplaying does not come naturally to Obama, and that is a GOOD thing.  It shows that he's real, and it shows us his heart.  I think his heart is in a very good place.  Let's hope he doesn't let the political advisors corrupt it.  Burn the damn script.

Rudy is a Tyrant


It'll be interesting to see... (0.00 / 0)
How this story plays out for Obama. I could see this thing going either way for him. The right will obviously go after him for his initial comment, disavowing the use of nukes. I certainly don't think this will hurt him in the primary, for the reasons Chris highlighted in his post (namely, that no democrat worth his or her salt would hold a position other than Obama's position). Indeed, the right's attack could very well increase his progressive street cred as those on the left jump to his defense.
On the other hand, it's possible that some on the left might go after him for his decision to strike and then seemingly weaken his remarks on the use of nukes, saying that he's pandering to the right and/or just playing politics with his answer. This kind of attack would claim Obama isn't genuine and/or is just another politician putting focus-group tested phrasing above what his ideals really are. Given that Obama is running a campaign for change (and given that he's running against Hillary), attacks on his authenticity could be damaging.
I should note that I'm certainly not endorsing this view, just saying that it's one potential outcome here.

Clinton disagrees w/ Obama. Should we be surprised? (0.00 / 0)
"That it isn't well known that all Democrats are against this idea is stunning."
- Chris Bowers

I don't think its stunning at all. Because it isn't true. Clinton disagrees with Obama and you Chris. You give her way too much credit.

http://electioncentr...

"I think that presidents should be very careful at all times in discussing the use or non-use of nuclear weapons. Presidents, since the Cold War, have used nuclear deterrence to keep the peace. And I don't believe that any president should make any blanket statements with respect to the use or non-use of nuclear weapons."
- Senator Clinton


Choosing the right target of opportunity (4.00 / 2)
I'm an Edwards guy, but I think both the Edwards and Clinton camps should quickly declare a "cease fire" and use this business to the party's best advantage.

There are a bunch of Republicans who are saying we should get fast and loose with the nukes.  This is the opportunity that LBJ took against Barry G back in 1964, to great success.

I know that the Clinton people want to cut Obama down to size, but we need to reframe this and take it to Guiliani and Romney, both of whom are going to have a very hard time not saying something suicidally stupid.  Or we can make sure someone asks Tancredo, who lacks the sense not to put his foot so far into his mouth that he can't sit down properly.

Make them defend using nukes in Pakistan.  Create cute flash animations of things with mushroom clouds.  Give people, and the press, something visual enough that even the Serious People will feel foolish.

I know that it goes against Clinton's advisers (and Edwards' advisers as well) to let up on Obama right now, but if they let this become a "reasonable" frame, they will also have to put up with the consequences, possibly even before the nomination.


saying what one actually believes (0.00 / 0)
I said in the war hawk thread that I thought that the speech would help dispel the notion that Obama is all about positioning and tactics like the stereotype of the average democrat. 

Such frank talk will make people think that he actually believes what he is saying.


Nukes (0.00 / 0)
It is naive to believe that any leader of a country that has nukes would ever take the option off the table of using them.  In a perfect world no country would have nukes.

naiveté or just not nuts? (0.00 / 0)
We like to have fun at the expense of the Serious People of the punditry who like to talk about naiveté, and proceed to show they have no damn common sense.

Get past the slogan and think a bit about what it would mean to use a tactical nuke over a village in Pakistan.  Which would be the first use of a nuke in the wild since 1945.  Now close your eyes and imagine what would happen to the government of Pakistan.

naiveté my ass.  The guy is showing common sense, and there's no percentage for any of us in giving the conventional wisdom any respect at all.


[ Parent ]
Realistic (0.00 / 0)
Hopefully, it would never come to something so drastic as nuking Pakistan or any other country, but if a terrorist that was based out of Pakistan was to use nuclear weapons against the US and the president of Pakistan did not give up that terrorist I think that any leader would not take the nuclear option off the table in dealing with Pakistan.

[ Parent ]
Against what target? (0.00 / 0)
On the assumption that we'd use the bomb for some reason other than pure retaliation, what's the target?  And why would an atomic weapon be the right tool for the job?

If you can't answer that question readily, you should ask yourself why threating to use the bomb in that context makes any sense, or would be taken as plausible by anyone.

It's very destructive, but ultimately it is just a weapon.  But what's it good for?


[ Parent ]
Obama's Public Image (0.00 / 0)
That we need a radical change in US politics and government is no news.

Whatever the media on Obama, I'm beginning to get the sense that Obama's image is suffering whether because of unfair attacks or public statement slip ups.

Now Obama is a bit green at this stuff, and mistakes are to be expected. At the same time, all the Progressive stances  on the democratic side were first advanced and presented by Edwards; Edwards set the pace; Clinton and Obama picked up the ball and moved it forward.

Well, I wonder if we might not be better off refocusing on Edwards, as more plausible potential for success than either Clinton or Obama? We can bring Obama in 2016, when he will be better prepared.


Obama - a little green? (0.00 / 0)
When you say that Obama is a little green I get the impression
that you're talking about media savvy.

What seems "green" to me is that he has not given deeply
serious thought to this issue.

I have not seen anything from Obama that I would consider a "progressive
stance".


[ Parent ]
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