Who Are The Elites?

by: Chris Bowers

Sun May 04, 2008 at 16:30


In light of Paul's discussion on elites earlier today, it is worth noting Hillary Clinton comments on economists disagreeing with her on the gas tax holiday:

Hillary Clinton has just started doing an Indiana town-hall meeting being broadcast on ABC, and George Stephanopoulos asked her a direct question:

Could she name a single economist who agrees with her support for the gas tax holiday?

Hillary sidestepped the question, and tried to use the complete dearth of expert support for the idea to her advantage, pointing to it as proof that she's on the side of ordinary folks against "elite opinion" -- a phrase she used twice.

"I think we've been for the last seven years seeing a tremendous amount of government power and elite opinion behind policies that haven't worked well for hard working Americans," she said.

A bit later she added: "It's really odd to me that arguing to give relief to a vast majority of Americans creates this incredible pushback...Elite opinion is always on the side of doing things that don't benefit" the vast majority of the American people.

Now, it seems to be a truism of politics that "elites" are bad. However, there seems to be significant disagreement on who the "elites" actually are in any given circumstance. In this case, Hillary Clinton casts economists as elites whose opinions always diverge from policies that would benefit "hard working Americans."  The problem with this formulation isn't the use of the term "elite," but rather that by attacking academics it fits the conservative model of elite rather than the progressive model of elite. Here is a crude sketch:

  • Elites for conservatives: Liberals, academics, judges, the entertainment industry, journalists, and the arugula / Belgian endive / wine set.
  • Elites for progressives: Higher-ups in large corporations, most national media pundits, political insiders, and wealthy donors.

Clinton's formulation really rubs me the wrong way because casting economists as the elitists is much closer to the conservative formulation of elites who run the country than it is to the progressive formulation of elites who run the country. Clinton is trying to frame the gas tax holiday as "taking on the oil companies," which is a working class, progressive populist position. However, when it turns into taking on academics, the framing takes a sharp turn to the right where study and science are discounted, even scoffed at. Mimikatz summed this up pretty well last night:

This is also bad morally because it suggests we should all just go on driving as much as we want, completely divorced from the reality of global warming.  It is the opposite of Rooseveltian straight talk.  It not only does not educate on the subject of gasoline usage and global warming, it misinforms.

It has as its premise the notion that taxes are bad, even taxes that pay for highways and bridges.  Talk about right-wing frames!  There is a reason this idea originated with McCain.

Worst of all, it suggests Hillary does not understand global arming and the kinds of things that need to get done, or just doesn't care.  Or, as Steve Benen suggests, rather than admit she made a mistake, she is compounding and amplifying it, making things infinitely worse in an imitation of the current Decider, who also can't admit a mistake, by having her spokesperson say we shouldn't listen to experts, just follow your gut.  We've had quite enough of that.

It fits into a larger pattern where Clinton is using right-wing conceptualizations of elitism to attack Obama. Now, for example, she is sending out direct mail attacking Obama for being an elitist who wants to take away rural people's guns. That is a pretty stark right-wing turn for Clinton in this campaign.

A true nightmare scenario for progressives is when the leader of the Democratic Party participates in, gives credence to, and "closes the triangle" on the centerpiece of conservative ideology over the last forty years: the Great Backlash Narrative against civil rights and "liberal elites.". While Obama has engaged in some right-wing talking points of his own on "Hillarycare," a social security "crisis," and the rather absurd notion that the Clintons are ultra-partisan super lefties, Clinton is stepping into far more dangerous territory here. Her arguments border on holding liberalism and progressivism itself in the same sort of narrative contempt that conservatives have long done through the Great Backlash Narrative. This very much reminds of me when the DLC was dominant in the Democratic Party in the 1990's, and it is not a place to where I long to return.  

Chris Bowers :: Who Are The Elites?

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Who Are The Elites? | 39 comments
I Can't Get At It Now With All My Books Packed Away (0.00 / 0)
(well, 99.94% of them, anyway), but a book I read in the late 1990s discussed how the Catholic Church in the first millenium used to deal with troublesome scholarly types--who could really get in the way of Church dogma, what with their abilities to read original documents and such--by labelling them as a dangerous upstart elite.

I've been meaning to go back and take another look at that discussion, but with Hillary going off on economists, I can't help but wonder if folks who own books won't be next.  Maybe I shouldn't unpack them when my rewiring project is done.  Maybe, I could just put up some posters where the bookcases used to be.  There was a movie of Fahrenheit 451, right?  I could get a poster of that.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


Do you know who she is trashing? .. (0.00 / 0)
with this .. I wonder what Paul Krugman will say about this .. as he's been one of her biggest boosters .. in print anyway ..  he just got thrown under the bus like everyone else that doesn't see things her way

[ Parent ]
Of course it's reminiscent of the DLC (4.00 / 1)
She's still a member of the DLC leadership team.

The photos pretty much say it all:

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ka.cfm...

I've always seen her primary campaign as being more about returning the DLC wing of the party to power in the DNC than anything else.


agree (4.00 / 3)
I just started Arianna Huffington's "Right is Wrong" yesterday and was impressed with her simple, straight forward analysis of how the republican party and MSM have discounted science and fact in order to push forward their own agenda on multiple fronts.

To see Clinton doing this is really hard for me.  In the last 7 yaers we have NOT listened to the experts and scientists in the slightest.  And the conservative bullshit definition of "elitism" being flung at Obama(and his supporters) is heinous.  

My question is why.  Does her campaign see this as their only chance to win - and damn the consequences if they fail?  They have to also realize how damaging these right-wing talking points are to the party.  Do they not care?  Seriously, I am not being sarcastic I just don't understand.    


Attacking the messenger (0.00 / 0)
I simply don't understand why Hillary couldn't have said something to the effect of "I've looked at the numbers, I've looked at the arguments, and I don't agree with some of the other conclusions that are reached."  There is no need for her to A) attack a straw man authority, and B) stretch that out not just economically, but to make a generalized, broad based argument against "elites" of all stripes (which is effectively what she did).  

I haven't seen video of the answer in question, but I can't imagine she went in thinking that just this kind of question wasn't going to come up, given the news coverage it has received.  It seems to me more likely than not that she knew she was going to be asked why she put forward a plan that would be widely criticized, which can only make me think that this answer was pre-conceived.  This wasn't a slip.  This wasn't a malapropism.  This was a deliberate, pre-meditated political decision to use a fundamental conservative frame, against progressivism (only confirmed by the direct mail piece).

She could have come up with a progressive plan.  She didn't.  

She could have disagreed with her critics on their merits.  She didn't.  

She could have propped up a massive, stereotyped straw man, generalizing to the political detriment of a fundamental tenet of progressivism, reinforcing negative conceptions of ALL Democrats (amplified that much more, considering the centrality of the "anti-tax" message, as Mimikatz points out). That's what she did.  

What's even worse is that she then uses "elite opinion" as a scapegoat for the massive failures of the Bush administration (for some of which she is complicit), when in fact it was her disregard of people (presumably "elites") like Eric Shinseki and Scott Ritter that led us into Iraq.

But on the whole, I'd be disgusted (but more so, disappointed) if I was surprised.


Elitism claims are all Hillary has left (0.00 / 0)
And that's why she framed the debate as common folk versus elites, rather than just discuss the actual merits.

I totally agree that it is pretty revolting, but unsurprising, to see her resort to this old, tired canard.  


[ Parent ]
neither worse nor better (0.00 / 0)

While Obama has engaged in some right-wing talking points of his own on "Hillarycare," a social security "crisis," and the rather absurd notion that the Clintons are ultra-partisan super lefties, Clinton is stepping into far more dangerous territory here.

I don't see that Clinton's buying into RW frames is any better or worse than Obama's.

At this point I'm pretty depressed about either candidate.  At this point it looks like 4 years of RW noise machine at full blast, with Obama with the deer-in-the-headlights look or Clinton wondering why it isn't 1996 again.  Then Jeb or Ron Paul in 2012.

Unless they blow it and manage to lose an election that the Republican "elites" are happy to yield to them, given the mess Bush is leaving behind.


I agree with you up to a point (0.00 / 0)
But it seems to me that she's reproduced the Republican frame of eliteness/effeteness in a way that Obama has not.  I don't think he's bought into the hypermasculinity attack that enables people like Clinton and Republicans, who certainly are elites, to claim that they're not.  Given how destructive that's been to this country, his refusal so far to do that is worth something.

[ Parent ]
"I think you're likable enough already, Hillary." (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
What does that have to do with anything? n/t (4.00 / 2)


[ Parent ]
talk about things Obama has been wrong about /nt (0.00 / 0)


Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
She's been much worse (0.00 / 0)
The Social Security issue for Obama was way overblown - I don't have a source off hand to back this up, but I'm almost positive he used the word "crisis" to describe Social Security once, and once only (just as an example).

Hillary's pulled this anti-progressive stunt,

plus another Obama as a "tax and spend liberal" mailer in New Jersey,

plus flag burning (which everyone forgets),

plus bought the Bush line on the war and has been behind it ever since,

plus using Bruce Reed of DLC fame for the "change you can Xerox" debate line,

plus ripping on young people in front of the Chamber of Commerce,

plus attempted to suppress votes in Iowa,

plus exploits the Muslim rumors/Farrakhan connection,

plus employed anti-progressive surrogates,

plus showed McCain plenty of "commander in chief" love.

That's quite a list.

That said, I have no idea what you're talking about with Ron Paul.


[ Parent ]
Method and Madness (4.00 / 2)
Conservatives like Richard Posner argue for a political scheme in which elites contest elites for the allegiance of non-elites. In fact, this premise lies behind the logic of Judge Posner's affirmation of the Indiana voter id law -- just upheld by the Supreme Court. They don't just argue for it -- they believe this is what American democracy is and should be.

So we have this tragic-comic spectacle that's like Mad's Spy Versus Spy. Elite A accusing Elite B of being exactly what Elite I is and vice-versa.

It is this structural game that has to be undone and overcome. If the progressive movement is about anything, it is about returning the people to democracy, to overcoming the pretensions of an elite class.

And what H. Clinton's doing is reinforcing this game.

Obama's "bitterness" misstep was also a reflection of an us-and-them, elite attitude, shrewdly exploited, of course, by Clinton.

There is a method to Clinton's madness, and that method is the enemy.


Richard Pildes Pointed Out Something Similar Re Bush V Gore (4.00 / 1)
Again with the books packed away.  But I reviewed a bunch of books about the 2000 election, mostly legal ones, and in one essay collection, The Vote, Pildes had an essay in which he demonstrated how the judges on both sides were following a sort of meta-precedent.  While the rationales of the majority were transparently dishonest, Pildes looked beyond that to the question of how judges tended to view democracy.

The conservative majority was made up of those who tended to see democracy as a fragile instrument, in need of protection against buffeting from below.  It was, in effect, the possession of the political elites used to bring the rest of the country to heel--though no one ever put it that bluntly, as I recall.  The liberal (moderate, really) minority was made up of those who tended to see democracy as a robust process with the voting public at the center.  Pildes examined several different sorts of issues, such as ballot access for third parties, in coming to these conclusions, generalizing across them, rather than following the more normal practice of studying lines of precedent and their citations.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Not a "democracy" but a "poliarchy" (0.00 / 0)
I heard (and summarized) a good talk on the elite understanding of "democracy" as theater for the proles -- poliarchy -- at an Historians against the War conference a year or so ago. Apparently the scholar of the form is William Robinson.

This seems a useful conceptual frame for understanding our situation -- and a jumping off point for changing it.

Can it happen here?


[ Parent ]
Theatre Of The Absurd, By The Absurd, For The Absurd Shall Not Perish From The Earth (0.00 / 0)
Wind And Fire, Baby!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Fighting the Backlash Narrative (4.00 / 1)
Let's say we find ourselves with a Democratic President in 2009 using those right wing frames either generally or focusing on a certain issue.  

How do we fight back?  Do we flex our muscles in the House, with the Progressive Caucus, or by focusing our fire on the Bush Dogs?  Do we go through the national media?

The basic question is something that we're going to have to think about, regardless.  How will we push a centrist Democratic president to the left throughout the next 4 years?

John McCain thinks we haven't spent enough time in Iraq


Hillary disagrres with economists (0.00 / 0)
Hmmm, I think there is a certain president who never believes what the experts say and follows his own agenda.

This sounds very familiar. I guess she's not in the reality-based community. (0.00 / 0)
The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality-judiciously, as you will-we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors...and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10...


[ Parent ]
You are turning into a pretzel here (0.00 / 0)
This is a perfect example of picking a team and my team right or wrong...no matter the evidence or the plangency of the issue itself.

The 3,  let me say it again,  3 month gas tax holiday is a political petty pander about 1. an issue you don't define corrrectly....because you refuse to admit she plans to tax oil companies windfall profits....and 2. most importantly about an issue whose importance you vastly overstate.

Paul Krugman in his NY Times columnn about Democrats using right wing talking points...

 To be clear, both Democratic candidates have been saying things they shouldn't; Hillary Clinton shouldn't have endorsed the bad idea of a gas tax holiday.

But I think Mr. Obama is doing much more harm to the Democratic cause by echoing Republican attack lines on such issues as insurance mandates and Social Security. And now he's demonstrating his post-partisanship by giving Republicans credit for good ideas they never had

In his blog he added an addenda to his blog post on the gas tax...undercutting the argument you are making

Add: Just to be clear: I don't regard this as a major issue. It's a one-time thing, not a matter of principle, especially because everyone knows the gas-tax holiday isn't actually going to happen. Health care reform, on the other hand, could happen, and is very much a long-term issue - so poisoning the well by in effect running against universality, as Obama has, is a much more serious breach.

http://www.openleft.com/showCo...

Or me ....not as well said as Krugman but in total agreement

Second both those categories you describe are elites...in the traditional sense of being small in number with influence beyond their number.  You are making arbitrary catergories to buttress a hyperbolic argument.  Elites aren't so bad....isn't that what you r Creatice Class is?  Marx and Lenin described it aptly...Elites shape opinion and sometimes they lead.

Mimikatz also makes a spurious argument about taxes and Hillary ....this from a women who voted against the Bush tax cuts, who wants to eliminate them, impose higher capital gains taxes and who husband took a huge political hit for RAISING TAXES.  Heaven help you for including a little history and truth into a argument against Hillary Clinton.

There is nothing worse that Hillary Clinton said in these statements.  You are seeing chimeras.  Go back and read the transcriipt of the Wallace interview of Obama if you want to see DLC opinions on display....That's really where his head is at.....But because you've picked a team you can't see him clearly for what he represents.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


This thread is about her using the right-wing "elitest" frame to describe PEOPLE LIKE KRUGMAN. n/t (4.00 / 1)


End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.

[ Parent ]
Terrific point - right on target. n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
that does not undercut my point (0.00 / 0)
which is that this is a lot of strum and drang over nothing much......because it makes your partisanship "principled" and allows you to bach her for her very petty sin which she doesn't mean.  It lets you Obama people off the hook for the multiple right wing panders that aren't just verbiage but tells you a lot about how he would govern.  And as the most progressive candidate in this race and his wife recognize that Hillary Clinton is the progressive candidate in this race.

Believe me Paul Krugman won't be offended.



"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Who are you talking about? (4.00 / 1)
I suspect it's Edwards, but there's been no official endorsement of any kind by either of them in any wholesale manner, so presumptions of any such manner are disingenuous.

I also encourage you, for the sake of civility here, to not use phrases like "you Obama people" or "Obama borg." Such generalizations are demeaning and don't come close to accurately describing the nature of his support, just as similar such generalizations about Clinton supporters are often demeaning and inaccurate.  There's no need for them, except the sake of insult.  I think we can be a little classier than that.


[ Parent ]
I have commented on blogs for 6 years now. (0.00 / 0)
I do not insult people and have almost never been accused of being insulting.  I have made the point multiple times about the nature of the netroots being absorbed by the Obama movement and made irrelevant.  Sadly Matt and Chris seem to now agree with the earlier point I made.  And I was not under the impression that the word Borg was an insult....it was meant to be descriptive of being absorbed.

I did not intend or try to insult you. If you feel that way I am sorry.

I used the word "you" for emphasis to speak specifically to this post...because to me this post's only real rationale is candidate bashing...not a discussion of principle, issues or even strategy.

Certainly compared to some of the pro Obama blogs Open Left is a haven...  

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
A few points (4.00 / 1)
First, whether with or without a windfall tax on oil companies, prices will rise and oil companies will have greater profits than they did before.  The difference between McCain's plan and Clinton's plan is simply how much more they will profit.

The Social Security line on Obama is way overblown.  He used the word "crisis" once, to the best of my recollection.  It was never nearly so much a part of a full blown assault on progressivism as Hillary has herself engaged.  While I agree that there were some questionable mailers and whatnot on health care, there is a good case to be made for both sides of the mandate argument (I personally waffle back and forth at times, even though I am an ardent supporter of Obama overall).  But to pretend that a plan that lacks a mandate is fundamentally non- or anti-progressive is intellectually dishonest.  

First of all, there's no guarantee either way that everyone will be covered, and that everyone can afford it.  Second, the major problem with health insurance is not that people don't want it, it's that people can't afford it - both sides agree on this matter, just not on the means.  In my view, neither is a particularly progressive solution, because each plan (and certainly Clinton's as well, if not more so, because of the purchasing mandate) empower private insurers as the central pillar of the system.  Until either candidate develops a viable alternative to that system, neither policy will be perfectly progressive, and will remain different in degree rather than different in nature.

I also want to point out that as much as I respect and usually agree with Paul Krugman, his bias is clear when it comes to politics, and so his words need to be taken with a grain of salt.  He is not the be-all and end-all of progressivism - he's simply one prominent voice that deserves consideration, but when he so openly rips on someone who is arguable just as progressive (if not more progressive) than Clinton, dismissing his supporters as members of a cult of personality, his credibility is not paramount.  No matter what he says, it IS a matter of principle.  The idea that simply because something won't pass Congress means people should be free to do whatever the hell they want politically is simply ridiculous.  That's the moment when someone should be free to stand by their principle, to stand for what is right instead of what's worth that extra one point in a poll.  It should be a matter of principle - the moment you make that sacrifice, it quite rightfully opens up that slippery slope, and weakens the trust between the government and the governed.

To pretend that there aren't political connotations to claims of what is "elite" is narrow minded and ignores a generation of political language loaded with conservative manipulations of elites.  Hillary absolutely is using "elite opinion" as a straw man  in order to portray herself as a friend of the "regular guy," the "working joe," or whatever, when in reality she is no such friend.  

To argue that she should be cut slack because she was previously good on a lot of tax issues is ridiculous.  Indeed, if she was so good on tax issues before, why now? Why abandon on a strong stance on creating a regressive tax burden? She is politically and intellectually dishonest on this issue, and the idea that she should be given a free ride because she used to be good on taxes is unsound for politics and on principle.

With regards to Obama and the DLC, Hillary has actually taken debate advice from Bruce Reed and is featured prominently on the DLC website (see mine, and another above comment).  She has consistently made right wing arguments against Obama and has triangulated against the left.  Is he perfect? No.  But she is certainly no better, and quite possibly worse.  This is in contrast to Obama, who openly told off the DLC and asked to be removed from their website when they tried to claim him as one of their own, who stood against the war when few others openly did (and even fewer among those who had direct votes), and who believes in a party built from the ground up rather than the top down.  The idea that he, not Hillary, is the true DLC candidate is preposterous.


[ Parent ]
The frame he used on Social Security allows (0.00 / 0)
the Republicans to start beating the drums on privatization.  Really really bad.

There is no argument on universality and mandates.  Not only is his plan bad on both...but his plan because it's not universal is likely to fail and drag down the Democratic party for a generation or more becasue of its failure.

Obama's political pander was to tell the DLC to take his name off...he's much more with them on policy than she is. She and Bill have a historical and familial relationship with the DLC but she doesn't really have much of a policy relationship with them anymore.

Krugman may indeed like her better...but that is becasue on the issues he cares about she is the better candidate....and I think he has been surprised that was the case.  

And my point on elites is that the elites he cites are both legitimate elites......and the point of the criticism of elites from a Democratic party point of view is not which ones they tout but for whom they try to influence policy outcomes.  Conservatives push to help the wealthy only and Democratic/liberal elites push to help the poor and the middle class (thinking it will help the wealthy as well)

that's a real distinction...and I think a more important one.  And from that perspective is a very insightful post by Lambert at Corrente wire

Here's my picture of the worst case scenario for policy outcomes on global warming: It plays out like de-institutionalization in the 1970s. Remember that? There were two parts to the plan. First, for both good and bad reasons, we shut down institutions that cared for the mentally ill. That saved a good deal of money on buildings, staff, medication, blah, blah, blah. Second, we planned to take care of the mentally ill on an out-patient basis by building local clinics. Well, we did part one, and not part two. And so the mentally were left to fend for themselves and thrown out on the street.

So, I imagine at least two parts to the plan the "creative class" [cough] is going to foist on us dull normals to solve global warming**: Part one will be to increase the price of gas (good, more energy efficient), encourage concentration in cities (good, more energy efficient), and start to discourage sprawl (good, suburbs really do suck). Won't it be great when "we" can all walk to work? Part two will be a massive increase in public transportation infrastructure, so that "we" don't have to use our cars as much (very very good, way more energy efficient). Part two will be expensive - especially out to the burbs - but worth it, a price we as society should pay, blah blah blah.

But watch how it will play out: Cities will become very, very desireable places to live, even more so than now, and so anybody who can escape from the burbs will move to the city. That accomplishes Part One! By that point, housing costs in the city will have risen to the point that the dull normals will not be able to live there, and will be forced out to the burbs. At that point, enter the Big Wienie: Any constituency for Part Two - building out public transportation infrastructure to connect the cities to the burbs - will magically evaporate, and just as happened with deinstitutionalization, we'll abandon Part Two after doing Part One, and the the burbs - finally, some use for all the McMansions - will become a dumping ground for the underclass, which will be much larger than it is today. Just as the streets are the dumping ground for the mentally ill. (We see this process in miniature starting today with broadband connection.)



"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Meh (4.00 / 1)
He called for raising the payroll cap. Sounds like a pretty progressive way to shore up Social Security to me. I agree he shouldn't have said crisis, but he said it once or twice a while back, and hasn't said it since.

Krugman has let his love of health insurance mandates cloud every other issue in the campaign. I still respect the guy, and agree with him that Hillary's plan is marginally better, but Hillary going around spewing and O'Reilly-esque talking points seems to me to be a new low.

What's next?  Is she going to go after "secular progressives?"


[ Parent ]
Lambert vastly overestimates the costs (0.00 / 0)
of living in the city, compared to the costs of what we have now, especially considering significant infrastructure investments.  It truly boggles the mind how Americans spend on gasoline every year. On a daily basis alone, it's almost $2 billion, and on an annual basis - a staggering $500 billion.  That alone is 5% of our annual GDP, and doesn't even factor in diesel consumption, and all the other increased environmental and energy costs associated with suburban and exurban sprawl.  

The fact is that mass transportation is affordable, urban living is affordable, and both are far better for pretty much everyone, economically and environmentally.  The technology exists, the money is there - as in most things, it is simply a matter of political will.  Lambert presents some quasi-Mad Max alternate reality.  

The money is there if the government wills it to be so, and the kind of pandering we're getting out of the Clinton campaign on the gas tax is exactly the reason a better world won't come about - a lack of political will, instead of standing strong for making improvements that could really matter but may not be political winners.


[ Parent ]
Ready on Day 1? (0.00 / 0)
So, how does a dismissal of economists fit with Hillary's claims to be "ready on day one" to clean up after Bush? Is she just going to wing it?

They call me Clem, Clem Guttata. Come visit wild, wonderful West Virginia Blue

Further re energy, environment and green jobs (0.00 / 0)
I have heard Sen. Clinton talk about this issue for years...in terms of the envoronment, the economy, and foregn policy.  she has put forward good progressive positions on this ...and as I said it is of long standing.  It's so good that bascially the Obama campaign just mimics her.

I know you feel frustrated that you can't rail against Obama because you picked your side and the denizens of the netroots punish people severly who crticize him,  so you criticize her harshly.  

As I have said before if Hillary is the nominee the netroots maintains its own identity instead being absorbed into the Obama borg.  

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


Why are you talking about the environment? (0.00 / 0)
This thread is about her use of right-wing frames.

And quite frankly, how is the fact that her and Obama have a nearly identical environmental policy a compelling argument that we should vote for Hillary?

And no, the netroots is split (unfortunately), although many large sites have official endorsed Obama.

End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.


[ Parent ]
The gas tax plan is awful environmentally (0.00 / 0)
Any proposal that endorses the idea of reductions in energy prices (particularly gasoline) through means other than reduction in demand is not environmentally sound.  Indeed, her plan virtually promotes the idea that we should be driving more, not less, and will have exactly that effect.  She clearly has no qualms about negotiation, compromise and outright giveaways on critical environmental policy, so long as she benefits politically.

[ Parent ]
Please read this (0.00 / 0)
You seem like a thoughtful and careful person.  This post by Lambert at Corrente Wire lays out a problem with the idea that people have to pay a price for energy usage.  It's starts out snide,  but still makes some good points about why a gas tax holiday appeals to people....because they need it now...Now they have to decide between, gas and a job or gas and food.  Then he makes an excellent argument, that if you ar old enough to remember the 70's deinstitutionalization disaater,  you will get it completley.  At the time what happened is exactly what I thought would happen....and that's the terrbile dilemna I think he outlines so well here.

But the difficulty you know is that people still need to drive and they still need to heat their homes....and the personal costs can be enormous and insurmountable.  

http://www.correntewire.com/cr...

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
The thing is (0.00 / 0)
Her plan won't reduce gas prices, short term or long term.  It won't  help the environment, short term or long term.  I'm just missing the merits of the plan.

[ Parent ]
Its merit is that it indicates she actually cares about (0.00 / 0)
ordinary people and wants to do things to make things better.  I said it was a petty pander...a feel good pander.  I never said it was salvation...but the hue and cry over its bad qualities in 10 times louder in the blogosphere than the hue and cry that should have erupted over Obama undermining the case for universality.

I really recommend you read the Corrente post  the end is very thought provoking.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Not to rehash this too much, because reasonable people can disagree (4.00 / 2)
But Obama never at any point undermined the case for universality.  Simply because he doesn't advocate a mandate doesn't mean he's undermining.  Undermining the case for universality would mean proposing a plan that purposefully left people out, which Obama's doesn't.  It makes health care affordable, and that's the major problem.  Neither plan is wholly progressive, as neither plan covers everyone, mandates or no mandates.

I read the Corrente post.  I'm just not convinced.  I think a pretty shitty way to show people you care is to do something that is meaningless, and will end up hurting them by making prices higher than they otherwise would have been (which is exactly what is going to happen).  The best solution possible would be to leave the gas tax in place, implement the windfall tax, and use that money to cut a check to everyone with a household income of $25,000 or less.  It makes far more sense economically, it doesn't create an incentive to drive more, it provides assistance to those people who really need it (the people who are making tough choices, and are in dire straits) and we still get to fill the transportation trust fund.  


[ Parent ]
Not to mention (4.00 / 1)
that her gas tax proposal is a complete and utter fraud.

John McCain doesn't care about Vets.



this is the old attack on being smart (0.00 / 0)
and republicans especially have used it over and over to form an alliance with the undereducated of America. oh yes, there are those of the working class who are so insecure that they happily vilify rational thought and education. it is really awful that Hillary has gone this route. until now I did not think her gas tax was an embrace of a right wing frame - I thought it was just a cheap pander. but this dismissal of economists is a reinforcement of how we got to such a bad state on global warming, on the housing market, on the Iraq war (yes there were plenty saying before 2003 that it would create a quagmire). each time the public faces tough issues the special interests go to war on being smart and educated to undermine the discussion, and the stupid of America are all to happy to by it. stupid is as stupid votes. i too look forward to hearing how Krugman deel with this one.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

Who Are The Elites? | 39 comments
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