Technocratic For The People: The Possible Perils of A New, Old-Style Progressivism

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun May 11, 2008 at 19:01





On Wednesday, Matt wrote a diary, "Obama's Consolidation of the Party", that got quite a bit of notice, not just here, but elsewhere across the blogosphere. Mike and Chris both weighed in to compliment Matt and add a few thoughts of their own.  

But I called it "A Rather Strange Post", and the time has come to elaborate further on why I said that--not so much focused on what Matt said, but on what he's describing, and the challenge of making sense of it.

Matt set up his post by saying:

Obama has created a number of significant infrastructure pieces through his campaign, displacing traditional groups the way he promised he would by signaling the end of the old politics of division and partisanship.

He went on to talk about "Voter Registration," "Obama Organizing Fellows," "Money: MyBarackObama.com," "Field: MyBarackObama.com," and "Message and Politics: MyBarackObama.com."  A recurrent them throughout the post was how Obama had managed to centralize power, while largely ignoring and/or marginalizing (other?) progressive groups and constituencies.

I only took on part of my concerns in my comment, the heart of which was questioning Obama's non-partisan schtick:

Like it or not, the aspiration to create a non-partisan politics is at odds with the very structure of our political institutions, from the winner-take-all single-member districts that define most of the legislative bodies in the country, to the electoral college.  Also, like it or not, where one party systems do exist, the result is invariably tyranny.

There are, of course, powerful yearnings to be free of partisan strife.  There are also powerful yearnings to eat so much ice cream that your [sic] burst.

I got deeper into historical specifics in responding to Chris's post when I wrote:

A Return to the Failed Policies of the Early 1900s

As I wrote several months ago--Obama is an early-20th Centrury progressive, not a post-Vietnam one.  The former focused a great deal on process, and trusted that substantive equity would naturally follow.  The downside of this is that these policies have already been shown to fail.

I'm not saying that they didn't do anything good.  But I am saying that they were inadequate to the scope of the problems they faced, which meant that they failed in the long run--if not sooner.

Time to flesh this all out, in hopes of encouraging a more enlightened debate.

Paul Rosenberg :: Technocratic For The People: The Possible Perils of A New, Old-Style Progressivism
Two Types Of "Progressive"

Type 1: Post-Kennedy "Progressives"-- In the late 1960s and early 70s, a number of folks opposed to the Vietnam War began calling themselves "progressives."  Those prosecuting the war had appropriated the term "liberal" for themselves, and while many people would contest this term, folks like me, who considered ourselves radicals of one sort or another, saw the term "progressive" as a big-tent term that could describe a common framework in which we could work with and talk with self-identified liberals who opposed the war.

The term gained a much wider usage in the decades to come, and with the wider usage came a significant dilution as well, primarily because grassroots organizing dried up, national organizing got entrained to the realities of Washington-even as it sought to confront or change them-and organizing in general was largely disfavored in deference to providing services, a losing game a government services were increasingly slashed.

People of Matt and Markos's generation had a tendency to come along, see almost-exculisively single-issue national organizations clinging to a model of bipartisan organizing that was utterly out of date, at least since the 1994 "Gingrich Revolution,"  and identify that model exclusively with post-Vietnam "progressivism."

My view is drastically different.  What they saw was primarily the most prominent remnant of a failure to recognize and respond to a highly organized rightwing Gramscian "culture war," waged to remake or replace the entire range of cultural institutions that in turn define the basic commonsense understanding that defines our society, culture and politics. There were many cultural, economic and historical forces at work in producing this outcome, but the end result was a process of cultural change from the 1970s to the early 2000s in which the public generally changed little on most issues, became more socially liberal on race and gender, and yet the political spectrum moved sharply to the right.

Type 2: Post-Populist "Progressives"-- The progressives of 100 years ago were a very different lot.  In fact, in the 1896 election, even the McKinley Republicans fancied themselves as "progressives"-they were for progress, unlike the backwards-looking populistst!  At least that's what they told themselves.

But, of course, it wasn't the McKinley Republicans who defined  progressivism-it was their inter-regional rivals, who were disproportionately the older civic elites who had been displaced by the get-rich-quick McKinley Republicans.  While the Populists were primarily ordinary folk on the edges of civilization-the priaries of Kansas and Nebraska-the Progressives were old stock leaders striving to reassert lost moral authority.  They were not, however, trying to do that by turning back the clock. Instead, they sought to better managing the future-and take up some of the Populists ideas to do so.

One of the clearests examples of how this relationship worked was the hoped-for role of the initiative, as explained by Richard Ellis in his book Democratic Delusions: The Initiative Process in America. As Ellis explained, the Populists wanted to use the initiative to bypass corporate-dominated state legislatures, and sweep away the old system entirely.  Progressives had a far more limited view-they wanted to use the initiative as a seldom-used safeguard, "the gun behind the door" was a favored phrase at the time.  (As it turned out Ellis wrote, both were disappointed.  Rather than altering politics as usual, initiatives turned out to be largely an extension of politics as usual.)

Thus, the earlier progressives were very much the technocratic social engineering sort, who often tended to think that the populist rabble-or, more properly, their urban counterparts-were as much in need of social engineering as the problems that they complained about.  They did not trust great concentrations of wealth, nor did they trust the impoverished masses fighting against against the great monopoly capitalists. When Sinclair Lewis wrote The Jungle, about the great injustices the capitalists visited on the immigrant masses working in their slaughterhouses, the progressive elites were horrified-by what it meant for them, as consumers of meat prepared under such horrid conditions.  The result was not labor reform, but creation of the Food and Drug Adminstration (FDA).  "I aimed for the public's heart," Lewis famously said, "but I hit its stomach instead."

Progressivism vs. Populism

In a diary last Decemeber, "Populism & Progressivism-Pt1: Obama As Classic Progressive", I drew on an essay by Constitutional Law professor Jack Balkin, "Populism and Progressivism as Constitutional Categories".  It was a long diary, and even a "brief" excerpt from it would be long.  So I'll just cut to the chase: Balkin argues that the two tendencies, historically rooted in successive movements over 100 years ago, reflect two strikingly different views about the nature of democracy.  The populists saw it as a popular enterprise, engaged in sporadically, in which the people as a whole reigned supreme.  The progressives saw it as an ongoing deliberative process that people had to be specially prepared for.  Populists tended to see the progressives' approach as patronizing and paternalistic, progressives tended to see the populists as short-sighted, partisan, ill-informed, even dangerous.

I would make 3 points in light of this discussion:

(1) Obama's primary orientation is that of a classic progressive.  He seeks prolonged deliberation, and seeks to draw people into that process who are not ordinarily engaged.  This is what he did as an organizer, and many people-perhaps including Obama himself-make the mistake of confusing his close contact with those he organized for somehow becoming one with them, rather than a prolonged attempt to make them more like himself.  Of course, some of those he organized may have wanted to be more like him, but it is clearly not the case that most people do.  Populism is a much more common orientation than progressivism.

(2) Obama's antipathy to partisanship is strikingly parallel to the classic progressives' antipathy to populist outrage.  It is sharply at odds with the rationalist deliberative model that the classic progressive cherishes.  Yet, partisan outrage may be exactly what's called for at this point in time.  It was certainly called for when Sinclair Lewis wrote The Jungle, for example.  But the progressives were morally asleep at the time, and it took another two decades for the Great Depression to deliver the opening for the workers Lewis described to get a modicum of the justice they deserved.

(3) Obama's remarks about "bitterness"-although touching on an important truth-legitimately did serve to crystalize his classic progressive attitudes that are experienced as "attempts at managerial purification [that] are paternalistic."  [From Balkin's essay.] Paternalism, in turn is taken to mean that one's concerns are not really taken seriously.

Yet, if the charge of paternalism was true-and I believe it was, however unintended-the second part, about concerns not being taken seriously, does not necessarily follow.   Indeed, from the classic progressive's point of view, managerial purification is necessary in order to get amorphous concerns translated into policy terms as a form of pre-processing before policy deliberation proper can begin.  If one truly cares about people's suffering, and wants to do something actually effective about it, then this is what one does, from the classic progressives' point of view.

Of course, I am not saying that Obama is identical with the progressives of 100 years, but the parallels are strong, indeed.  One thing that is significantly different is the relative numbers involved.  A century ago, the middle class progressive leadership was numerically quite small compared to the working class masses they wished to educate and tame.  Today's middle class-economically imperiled though it may be-is dramatically larger, even moreso as a percentage of the electorate.

Middle vs. Working Class

Reinforcing the progressive/populist dichotomy, though not perfectly identical to it, is a class-based difference that was discussed in great detail by our own educationaction as part of the "Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing" series, in the diary, "Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing: Social Class and Social Action".

It's a very rich diary, and I'm only going to focus on developing one aspect of its main argument. The diary shows that there are incredibly wide-ranging differences between the organizing traditions of middle class activists involved in issues like peace and the environment, and working class activists, as epitomized by unions.  Among the characteristics cited for middle-class activists, in contrast with working class ones is that their activism is voluntaristic, and individualist, involving abstract and theoretical discussions, with goals that are conceived of as interest-free, beneficial to all.  In sharp contrast, working class activism is a product of necessity, carried out in a disciplined, hierarchical environment, with goals that are clearly understood as being interest-based, in conflict with those who have contradictory interests.  

Two points stand out as particularly important for the purposes of this diary-first, that the differences in class backgrounds are so various that it be very challenging for people to work together across class lines, despite the best of intentions.  And second, that the middle-class activists tend to discount the significance of power, struggle, and differences between different interests.  They presume the possibility of universally valid, disiniterested, technical approaches to policymaking that can be univerally acceptable to all-if the policymaking process is done right.  Working class activists, in contrast, see such a vision as hopelessly naive.

Here are two passages that flesh these summaries out a little more:

Because they have different ways of speaking, when people from different classes meet together, they often find that they can't communicate very well, misreading discursive and social cues that seem so natural to one group and so alien to the other. Furthermore, the structure of each context tends to alienate and suppress the participation of people from the other class. For example, the quick repartee of middle-class meetings can make it difficult for working-class people to get a word in edgewise, whereas the formalistic and hierarchical structure of working-class settings can seem, to middle-class members, like a tool for suppressing their individual voices.

Rose summarizes the differences between middle-class professional and working-class organizations in this way:

   The middle class is prone to seeing the working class as rigid, self-interested, narrow, uninformed, parochial, and conflict oriented.  The working class tends to perceive the middle class as moralistic, intellectual, more talk than action, lacking commonsense, and naïve about power.  Each side has a different standard for evaluating information, with the working class trusting experience and the middle class believing in research and systematic study.  The result is a wide gulf in understandings of nature, sustainability, economics, and human conduct.  Worse yet, working-class unions and middle-class environmentalists seek change differently.  The working class seeks to build power to confront external threats, while the middle class hopes to change people's motivations, ideas, and morality.

Finally, the issues tackled by groups like unions and local community groups are usually closely tied to particular community needs. Instead of focusing on universal values (although they may often refer to these), they tend to define their battles in terms of "competing interests," experiencing "their own interests . . . in opposition to the interests of others" (Rose). A problem is rarely seen as the result of a simple misunderstanding that can be rationally dealt with. Instead, power must be wrested from others who will generally not give it up without a fight. Win-win solutions may sometimes be possible, but experience has taught them that conflict generally involves a zero-sum game.

Where We Stand Now

As a classic progressive now, I am not claiming that Obama is just like the classic progressives of 100 years ago.  After all, they were highly influential, but they were a distinct minority, especially in their middle class base.  It was only the welfare state, the New Deal and its follow-ons-the GI Bill and the massive government spending that WWII began and programs like the interstate highway system continued-that made a truly mass middle class possible.  The early 20th Century progressives stood midway between the corporate monopolists and the working masses.  They wanted a more equitable society, but they didn't want to see the masses empowered. They inherently distrusted the masses.  And, indeed, it was not until the masses were empowered in the 1930s by mass mobilizations and sweeping labor law reforms, that the inequities the progressives worried about were finally addressed in a robust manner.

The New Deal involved a good deal of progressive-style reforms as well-vastly improved regulatory measures that did a much better job of protecting the public and opening up acess.  The reform of the mortgage market alone openned up the way for a vast expansion of homeownership, once something only the upper or upper-middle classes could afford, due to the lack of a long-term mortgage market.  By the late 1940s, in sharp contrast, almost any GI returning from war-even a lowly private-could afford to buy a home with a VHA loan, at least if he were white.  Thus, there was no sharp dividing line between the substantive reforms driven by a newly empowered working class, and the regulatory reforms of a new, more confident generation of progressive-style reformers.  In the best of cases, they formed a single seemless garment of new opportunity.

The creation of the welfare state-not just in America, but across Europe, in turn created a profound shift in public attitudes, identified by social scientist Ronald Inglehart as the rise of post-materialist values, resulting from vast increases in the number of people who grew up in conditions free from material scarcity.  Ironically, the new post-materialists were sometimes remarkably disinterested in the very concerns for economic justice that made their positions of relative affluence possible.

The following chart shows how post-materialist values correlated with education came to be increasingly common, though still not majoritarian, even among the poorly educated:

The rising numbers of post-materialists is part of the secret to Obama's success.  But there's a hidden danger here as well, as the foundations of the middle class have been relentlessly weakened by conservative policies over the past 30 years or so.  Indeed, the weakening has taken on dimensions that traditional economists didn't even know how to measure, argues Yale Political Scientists Jacob Hacker, in a book I discussed in a diary earlier this year, as
"The Great Risk Shift--A Substantive Fight That Obama COULD Make His Own":

I want to point out a major substantive initiative that I think Obama could take on quite readily, even though it might at first seem a more natural fit for Edwards. The issue is laid out in a recent book by Jacob S. Hacker, a Yale University political scientist, The Great Risk Shift: The Assault on American Jobs, Families, Health Care, and Retirement--And How You Can Fight Back. In it, Hacker argues that the greatest economic challenge facing Americans today is not economic inequality-though he doesn't seek to downplay that-but rather the shifting burden of economic risk. And that what's most needed in the 21st Century is a new orientation to bringing risk back under reasonable control.

It's not simply a matter of protecting folks at the bottom, Hacker argues--effective dealing with risk is vital for creating an environment in which people feel secure enough to take on the sort of voluntary risk that helps drive the economy forward--what's often called "entrepreneurial risk," but that includes a wide range of choices to invest resources of time, money and effort in future possibilities that by their very nature cannot be certain. These include investments in eduction, training, changing careers, starting a new business, etc. In short, Hacker argues, a security orientation is not the polar opposite to an opportunity orientation--it is a vital aspect of an opportunity orientation. And it's this latter argument that gives Hacker's point about countering the Great Risk Shift a potential bipartisan cross-over appeal that fits perfectly with Obama's articulated intentions.

Thus far, Obama doesn't seem very inclined to move in such a direction-even though doing so could have significantly undercut Clinton's advantage among less-secure, lower-income voters.  Obama remains locked into a middle-class, classic progressive mindset that is, unfortunately, blind to it's own material vulnerability, via the enormous rise in risk that Hacker is talking about-risk that has been shifted onto the very individuals who find Obama's rhetoric so appealing.

This is why I think that Obama is extremely vulnerable politically-not necessarily in the upcoming election, as McCain is an incredibly vulnerable candidate who could easily lose by 10-20 points this November.  Rather, if Obama's cultural blinders disable him from grasping the true nature of the challenge he faces, he could end up drowning in the flood of consequences from 30+ years of conservative failure.

In Matt's diary, mentioned at the beginning of this post, he ticked off the ways in which Obama was centralizing power within the Democratic Party.  What seems clear to me is that Obama is doing this because it's the easy path to power-compared, say, to confronting the power centers beyond the party, and engaging in a Gramascian "war of position"/"culture war" to challenge, take over and transform the institions of cultural power that define the limits of the thinkable.  Various people have suggested that once Obama has consolidated his power as President, he will be able to disarm his opposition and force his agenda through.  Perhaps.

But the ultimate problem with this scenario is the question of whether Obama himself will have an agenda adequate to the magnitude of the problem, or if his technocratic ideology of reasonable compromise will prove inadequate to the task at hand, just as the classical progressives of a centrury ago could not solve the problems of injustice they faced, because they feared the very people who they sought to "save."

The problem is, ultimately, whether it is ever even possible to actually be technocratic for the people.  Or whether that was just a dream. Just a dream.






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Excellent (4.00 / 6)
Thank you for the history lesson (again). As always, those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it (or something like that).

To me this also exposes this silliness of trying to carve out a new demographic in the Democratic Party, the so-called 'creative class'. Is it just me, or does the 'creative class' remind you of the early Progressives as well (or the talented tenth, or the intelligenstia)? Where once again a group is not entirely comfortable with associating itself with the great unwashed masses.

But again, great post. Although I'm a strong Obama supporter, I don't believe we'll enact huge changes in his administration (except possibly climate change legislation) unless we really have a great crisis that opens up the window for drastic reforms.

Your comment on reducing risk is spot on. Edwards actually did get at this (even more-so the first time around) when he talked about families nowadays being thrown off the cliff if they missed one bill payment or one paycheck fell through. Obama would be wise to take that up.  


Thanks! (4.00 / 2)
The earlier, mammothly long version of this was going to have an explicit discussion of the "creative class", but in a rare act of accidental sanity, I scaled the whole thing back, so I could actually post it in time to be read!

And yes, I was going to say much the same thing as you just did--it's the New England progressive leadership class all over again.

The thing is, these are not bad people.  But they fail to realize that they can be just a provincial in their own way as any other social group in America.

Long story short: It really doesn't matter what sort of world music I'm listening to as I think to myself that everyone around me is so narrow-minded.  I really have no idea what they are like unless I get to know them.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
provinciality (0.00 / 0)
"I really have no idea what they are like unless I get to know them."

So very very very true.


[ Parent ]
it would be great to see your discussion of the creative class ... (0.00 / 0)
my understanding of Florida's work is somewhat different than you've sketched here.  it's a very broad notion of "creatives", including hair stylists, techies, etc., and very diverse in a lot of dimensions.  so i have a hard time seeing how it reduces to the old New England progressive leadership.

[ Parent ]
It's An Overlap, Not An Identity (0.00 / 0)
I'm sorry, I was sloppy not to make this clearer.

I had originally planned a much longer post, but I realized it wasn't going to work in the time-frame to get it up in time for people to read and discuss.  I was going to talk at some length about the nature of post-materialist values, and in the course of that I was going to talk about the creative class as well.

While not all of the creative class is directly comparable to the progressive leadership, there is a similar detachment from the blue collar world, away from making stuff, and an orientation toward providing services, enhancing aeshetics, promoting general quality of life, etc.  What these share in common is that they don't, in general, revolve around survivial issues, although, paradoxically, these groups both include health care professionals--so it's a bit more subtle than that. And, in fact, the more that health care professionals revision themselves--as, for example, the CNA has done a couple of times now in its confrontational stance against Arnold Schwarzenneger--the more that I think there's potential for connecting across what is, in effect, a somewhat arteficial divide.

Another dimension of this latter point is that Inglehart contrasts materialist vs. post-materialist, but some other researchers have argued for a more complex relationship in which there's a greater dimensional structure.  I haven't explored this debate yet, but it strikes me as very significant, because it goes to the issue of how political affinities can be developed to reinforce solidarity between creative class and traditional working class constituencies, who I believe need each other far more than they realize.

It's significant that the strongest welfare states in the world--the Scandanavian ones, as well as the Netherlands--have all managed to forge some degree of such solidarity.

So, you see, there's several cans of worms here behind your relatively innocent-seeming question.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
This is really interesting (0.00 / 0)
to me because I am currently looking at the Free Schools movement of the late 60s early 70s.  The Paul Goodman et. al. stuff was extremely post-materialist, essentially assuming that "want" was not a real issue anymore, that it would just go away by itself, and so there was no need to worry much anymore about all of the detailed democratic issues the earlier progressives worried about.  I'm arguing that they are essentially "post-materialist" progressives.  They even go so far at points to argue that they are the most oppressed people becuase they are trapped in middle-class jobs, more oppressed, for example, than poor people in what they imagined to be more "authentic" small villages.  The same post-materialist ideas emerged in the 1920s.  Both eras were times when privileged people could imagine that we were so prosperous that poverty was really just an unnecessary and fading remnant.  

Interestingly, in the 1960s, the counter-culture emerged right after the civil rights movement.  I've actually looked at how the white students who went south for Freedom Summer misunderstood what was happening down there, and created their own non-political educational models partly in response to the political experience they had down there.  A perfect example of miscommunication and inability of post-materialist people to understand the conditions of materialist people.  

I wouldn't say that we are in the same position, today.  Although the "creative" class may be faced with more fear in the current climate than in the last decade or so (but what about the dot-com crash?).  

Is there a place where Inglehart or his collegues talk about this issue of post-materialism increasing the divide between the haves and the have-nots?  I haven't read this stuff but I've been digging around since I finally paid close attention to what you were saying about it.  

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


[ Parent ]
Funny You Should Mention That (0.00 / 0)
My sister went to a free high school, where she was part of a subgroup that spent a good deal of time going to demonstrations in support of the Black Panthers, and trying to figure out how to do more.  So what was happening on the ground, in that case at least, was actually moving back in the other direction--although my sister was internally critical of it, because it did feel more voyeuristic than real.  But there was a very real question of what more could they do.

I have read some references to hyper-materialism as one offshoot of post-materialism, which would be consistent with what you're looking for.  But I have to confess that I'm not really that deeply read in Inglehart's work, so there may well be a good deal more.  I've mostly just raided it for specific purposes, always promising myself that I'd come back later to really do a proper job of educating myself.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
cans of worms indeed ... (0.00 / 0)
thanks for the detailed response, i now see what you're getting at

[ Parent ]
If so... (0.00 / 0)
then one key difference that makes the historical parallel you're drawing hard to draw conclusions from is this: today's Creative Class (as described by Florida) is several times as large as it was a century ago, and is currently in fact larger than the old-school labor & farmer classes put together.  It's hard to call such a set "detached", when your implication is that they're a small group detached from the concerns of the majority.

[ Parent ]
I'm Quite Aware It's Much Larger (0.00 / 0)
In fact, I was going to make a lot more of that fact in the parts that got left out.

But the size of a group really has nothing to do with its degree of detachment or connectedness with other groups.  Indeed, the larger the group, the more likely different individuals and subgroups are likely to become detached from one another.

I find it strange how fixated you've become on this.  I didn't mention the cretive class in my diary as posted, and one of the things I planned to say about it was that it almost certainly symbolizes, more than it accurately delineates the actual demographic that embodies the modern-day equivilent to the progressive's core base.  

But, since your obsessing so, maybe I ought to take a closer look and do a diary just about that at some point,

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Not you (0.00 / 0)
I'm replying to another commenter who brought it up, and made comments that I thought were silly or uninformed.  My comments are a response to that person, not to your article.

[ Parent ]
Ah, Well (0.00 / 0)
Obvious proof that I need a break.

Except that I'm supposed to be working on something else, at this point, and tending to the last few comments on this diary is supposed to be my break.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Back in January, (0.00 / 0)
I asked about Obama, which side is he on? Or does he know there are sides? I think that can be asked of the entire "creative class." It looks to me as if a lot of folks believe themselves to occupy a status that is illusory.

But maybe I'm wrong... In any case, I want to elect this Democrat -- but even more I want to work to organize the formations that can hold any Democratic administration's feet to a popular fire.  

Can it happen here?


[ Parent ]
Creative class (4.00 / 1)
The creative class is not a "new demographic" that anyone is trying to carve out.  Rather, it is a socioeconomic class named and described by Richard Florida, that has existed throughout our history but used to be very small (around 10% of the population) and has grown dramatically in the past few decades (to more than a quarter of the population of the US now).

[ Parent ]
nevertheless (0.00 / 0)
It's pretty similar to descriptions of the Progressives of old.  

[ Parent ]
How so? (0.00 / 0)
I don't see the similarity even slightly.  Perhaps there are some overlapping traits.

[ Parent ]
"The Creative Class": From Jefferson to DuBois, it's about the 'talented tenth" (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
I'm not looking to end the parties (4.00 / 4)
I am looking to end the rightward shift of the parties. This is a different goal. I want the country to be left of center as in the countries of Europe and other social democracies that protect its populations against the extremes of capitalism, take longer views regarding things like environmental and labor laws, and understand the complexities of modern economies. The rightward shift has meant a shift into simplistic jingoism rather than complex economic ideas. Or, to put it short- I don't want the check that is the GOP to go away. I simply want it to be a check on the extremes of the left (should those extremes arise) rather than allowing it to be the main source of idealogical principles in the US.

Our Economic Theories (0.00 / 0)
guiding public policy these days are on a level that makes reading entrails look good.

The thing is, most middle class folks find it all so boring.  Accounting=dullsville.  So they tune out.  

And that's precisely what the right is counting on.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yeah, I know (0.00 / 0)
So they rely on what they think Ma and Pa down on the farm in some Norman Rockwell version of the American dream would do when they barter for goods at the country store.  

[ Parent ]
Thanks Milton Friedman, couldn't have done it without ya! n/t (4.00 / 1)


Former Edwards Supporter, Obama Supporter since January 30, 2008

[ Parent ]
Excellent Essay, as usual, Paul (0.00 / 0)
Just to play Devil's Advocate, though, what do you think of this argument (one which I think could be reasonably argued as a counter to your thesis):

Perhaps Obama's policys can be used to slow the economic downturn of the economy, and thus stop the bleeding of working and middle class families into poverty. These policies should include Universal Health Care (at least more universal than the current form), better funded education (with his call for increased funding and a National Service Program for college students to get money), and the closing of tax loop holes for the rich and the end of tax cuts for these same high earners (as he has also promised).  Then, perhaps, there would also be an increase in the Middle Class, with fewer and fewer people spending money on these things, and the money paying for them coming from high earners, and thus having a more stable and sizable income at after all the expenses are paid, raising the lower classes at the expense of the higher classes. In such an example, the "post-materialist" values you mentioned would increase in population. Knowing this, could it not be assumed that this in turn would allow a victory in the "culture war." If more and more people become Middle Class and adopt these classical Progressive values, and thus being the majority of the population would thus define the culture, why would this not in the long run lead to a victory in this Gramscian war?

Taking off my Devil's advocate hat, I'd also like to ask what effect Iraq will have on this. Assuming Obama manages to fulfill his campaign pledge to bring the vast majority of troops home from the country, and knowing that there will likely be some kind of consequence, what impact will the inevitable conservative propaganda machine, claiming a liberal-induced loss, have on this "culture war." Personally, I think this could be lessened if Obama were to show that their civil war has less to do with international terrorism and more to do with internal religious strife and successfully tie Iraq to economic hardships here at home, thus defeating the main conservative attack and counterattacking as well. Thoughts?

Former Edwards Supporter, Obama Supporter since January 30, 2008


The Devil's In The Details, I Suppose (0.00 / 0)
So I'm sure your DA's argument could be tightened up, but as presented it wouldn't really do the trick, since there's a long lag time between folks growing up and being old enough to cast a vote.

But, to address the argument in it's strongest possible form, I've got to say, "not so much."  And the reason is basically contained in Jacob Hacker's "Great Risk Shift" analysis.  This is really the make-or-break test, as far as I'm concerned, and the only sensible way to make it is to talk about it sensibly and directly. In fact, the whole subprime mortgage crisis ought to be seen in terms of this larger framework.

As for Iraq, the vast majority of Americans know it's already lost.  What Obama needs to do is move attention off of Iraq and onto what we should be doing---like, say, megotiating am Arab-Israeli peace deal, going full-speed ahead on securing loose nukes, developing positive relations with moderate Islamic forces in a manner that doesn't isolate them from those around them, etc.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Thanks Paul, a lot to think about. (4.00 / 1)
I am one of those who think of our crisis as one in which the words for the problem have been removed, not just the words for the solutions.

George Orwell's 1984 described a world in which the language was constantly stripped down, words were removed to prevent 'thoughtcrime'. The political dialog in American media is reduced almost to the point were concepts in use everywhere else in the world are entirely absent.

In 1984 words were eliminated and old simple words jammed together, the point being to remove ideas and make even understanding their situation impossible.

Consider this from the book:

Blackwhite is defined as follows:
" ...this word has two mutually contradictory meanings. Applied to an opponent, it means the habit of impudently claiming that black is white, in contradiction of the plain facts. Applied to a Party member, it means a loyal willingness to say that black is white when Party discipline demands this. But it means also the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that white is black, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary. This demands a continuous alteration of the past, made possible by the system of thought which really embraces all the rest, and which is known in Newspeak as doublethink

And ask yourself if it applies to any 'news' shows or hosts you know.

I am unfamiliar with Paul's formulations and will require more study and thinking to respond. That is a strong compliment, I am eager to start.

On Obama's consolidation of the party, I was gratified by Matt's important article that Obama did not just win, did not just become the nominee, but, as the Clintons did, as FDR did, as all our successful Presidents did, he made the party his own. It is a truism that Presidents become the leader of the party, the head of the Party, after they win. Appointing Deans replacement for example is assumed. Good presidents, strong Presidents actually complete the task. I would say that the estimable admirable Jimmy Carter for example though, did not.

I am more than comfortable with Obama's sensible continued and seemingly continuous organizing and his promotion of citizen involvement in democracy. There is a huge wave of commitment, interest and renewed dedication to citizenship, brought about not just by revulsion with the past 2 decades of Republican rule, but by the call for real change, the call for involvement, the call for dignity that Obama's candidacy calls forth. No other candidate drew this from the public, no other candidate inspires this. I do not think that these efforts are as much a 'usurpation' of the citizens urge to become involved, so much as an attractive avenue to engagement. Senator Obama would be remiss to not offer it.

Im sure its unnecessary to point out that a huge mandate of motivated citizenry, huge coat tails, and a large victory should also be his goal. Our goal. These efforts of Obama's are on point to these goals.

It is our job to continue doing, with more contacts and smarts, more commitment and tools, what we have always done, organize, educate, assist and lead when ever and where ever we can. There is a lot of work to do, a lot of issues to deal with, a lot of messes to clean up and an engaged citizenry to inspire.

I for one find nothing to criticize in a candidate who has done so well, at what we would would do if we could; motivate, inspire, organize and involve. For now, that amazing feat, is enough for me.

If we have a job in line with the cautious nature of this and Matt's articles, it is to insure that the drive for change is deeply embedded in the newly arisen citizens and to ensure that the demand for change isn't tied to a single person, but to all the people.

"Dont be disappointed, be angry and more involved, be calm and resolute," would be the advise if Obama fails to transform the culture of our politics. That this is the main message of Barak Hussein Obama right now keeps me more than hopeful.

Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


You've Hit The Nail On The Head Re Orwell (4.00 / 1)
Removing the words to describe the problem is precisely the heart of the matter.

The GOP got it's hands on 1984 back in 1964, and began using it as an instruction manual. And if there's one thing they're good at, it's following instructions.

As for your take on Obama, well, I obviously have my doubts.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Doubt is the wrong word - "dedicated to moving left" instead? (0.00 / 0)
Obama has done what we want him to do first and foremost, and that is motivated inspired and involved the great amss of the American people, and shown he can wither the storm of an election.

That is why he is the nomineee.

I would rather have a Nominee that creates a massive movement demanding change, demanding democracy, demanding peace, demanding sustainable development, demanding dignity, demanding equality, than a candidate that will pass a few bills, even good ones, and leave people distracted, uninvolved , apathetic and depressed.

There will be no progress in America until everyone realizes that they have power to make the democracy work, that they have choices in their society limited only to their imagination, wake up to their responsibility to govern: their economy for all the people, their foreign policy for peace, security, treaties, and the rule of law internationally, for stopping the climate crisis.

That is our job too, but Obama has done an excellent job so far telling people that. "Change is from the bottom up!"

This is your job America! Run your country! Democracy is yours, seize it.

So doubt is the wrong word, because working to inspire and organize is going to be your job no matter what Obama's policies are.

We have the point of choosing a Nominee, now we have moved to the point of winning the election with a historically huge mandate, I want 64% to 34%. Lets do that by organizing around accessible excellent cheap healthcare for all. Lets organize to win the next election on raising the minimum wage. Lets get our neighbours to vote democratic for peace.

Lets get Obama to say he will listen to the American people on the best way to bring in universal health, so long as it covers everyone. I think this one is actually doable in the short term, and it provides us with an opportunity to support and challenge our choice for president.

I hereby form the Coalition to Expand Obama's HealthCare Options CEOHCO. The sole purpose of which is to have Obama state that he is listening for wisdom of the American people on this subject,  so long as it covers everyone affordably.


Change
"We must break up the banks and never again let them get so big that they distort our politics and take down the economy.


[ Parent ]
I could not agree with you more (4.00 / 1)
A Return to the Failed Policies of the Early 1900s
As I wrote several months ago--Obama is an early-20th Centrury progressive, not a post-Vietnam one.  The former focused a great deal on process, and trusted that substantive equity would naturally follow.  The downside of this is that these policies have already been shown to fail.

I'm not saying that they didn't do anything good.  But I am saying that they were inadequate to the scope of the problems they faced, which meant that they failed in the long run--if not sooner.

I have railed about this for quite some time. And the early 20th century initiative and referenda reforms .... are a perfect embodiment of what is wrong with reforms that only focus on process and not what I called policy but you call substantive equity.... a more descriptive and complete term.  I have had arguments with people on this blog who contend that process is policy.  Indeed the initiative process has been taken over by the right wing.  It has become an agent of money and power not people power.... not a bulwark against them.

And putting Obama into this school is a pretty perfect fit...as were many of the wine track candidates before him.  What he has in addition to the usual educated supporters is that the earlier wine track candidates didn't get 90% of the black community because that community has supported the beer track candidates...because one of the basic reason that dicriminated groups vote for Democrats is that they are interested in improving substantive equity.

This has always been why I have not supported him...because I think the ambitions of this kind of progressivism are very limited and the reforms are easily subject to capture by the forces of the right.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


Limited ambitions (0.00 / 0)
If it is limited ambitions you are worried about, then DLC-types like Senator Clinton are clearly not the answer. They believe that conservatives are basically in control and the only thing we can do is slowly tinker around the edges (while doing everything possible to not alienate big business).

[ Parent ]
Barack Obama is the one with DLC policies (0.00 / 0)
no matter what you call them....and Sen. Clinton is the populist in this race.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
This is the problem with the pro-Clinton, anti-Obama crowd... (4.00 / 2)
You may be right when you make a list of policies and create a tally.  She might tally some tiny percentage difference on a 'populist' index, but not enough to matter in any real sense.  It reminds of the useless 'Progressive Punch' indexes when its used to try and make distinctions amongst those within in a few points of each other.  Obama and Clinton are both more populist than McCain, but to say that Clinton is the populist in this race is ridiculous.

Both candidates are more DLC than populist.  Clinton and Obama are both so far from Edwards, who I think was only weakly populist, to render your distinction useless and patronizing.  I think this is the reason that the post-Super Tuesday Clinton arguments have failed.  She offered too little when compared to Obama to make what distinctions there were really matter, especially when the horridly bad judgment on Iraq and Iran is included.


[ Parent ]
populism (0.00 / 0)
If we take "populism" as a party neutral word then both McCain and Clinton are more populist than Obama, see the gas tax holiday for an example.

A glance at McCain's economic plans shows that most of them have a populist appeal, generally of the "it's your money" variety but he also includes in some anti-corporate bits, especially around the mortgage crisis (John McCain Calls For The Immediate Formation Of A Justice Department Mortgage Abuse Task Force). The devil is in the details, of course, and that is where you can see the difference between Hillary Clinton's and John McCain's populism.

Barack Obama can't pull off populism, except in a coded way among the black community, and he shows no signs of wanting to. He is proud of his "eat your spinach" rhetoric, it is what gives him his straight-talk, Washington outsider reputation. That is why Obama's campaign has largely written off the "old coalition", McCain can out-populist Obama by superficially running against the Republican party's business interests, which enhances McCain's "maverick" reputation and blunts any Democratic effort to win over working class voters. That to me illustrates the political peril of Obama's progressivism, which I think is an expression of the deeper problems Paul points out.


[ Parent ]
Pandering Is NOT The Same As Populist (4.00 / 1)
While it's true that simplicity and directness of message are populist values, when they're used to mislead and take folks for a ride, they are vulnerable to a populist comeback.  And given that most folks saw through this on their own--and that Obama's defiance played well--I think both gained more on the "faux populist" index than anything else.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
One 'populist' idea does not a populist make... (0.00 / 0)
I would add, to be considered a populist you have to have some credible policies (not a policy).  The Republicans are good at the old bait and switch, but their bona fides are lacking when it comes to the bottom line.  'Tax cuts for everyone' sounds populist, but a real populist would probably suggest tax cuts for workers and tax increases on business and wealth to make sure aid programs for the poor, education, health, etc. were funded.  More and more people now realize that 'tax cuts for everyone' means a penny in your pocket and a million in the pockets of the wealthy while the infrastructure rots and the bureaucracy meant to protect you is downsized and outsourced to those they are supposed to be overseeing.  I think  most people read Clinton and McCain's gas taxes in the same light, it sounds good until you take it to the next step and realize what it might cost you.  Even Clinton's windfall tax on the oil companies was quickly identified as shifty double entry accounting since the windfall tax would just be added back into the gas price to cover the industry's loss.

[ Parent ]
a pander according to models (0.00 / 0)
Most populist initiatives can be characterized as pandering, since they generally shift a tax burden from consumers to corporations that will just pass the cost along (in Krugman's terms "In one pocket, out the other"). But I'm a little surprised that you take economist's models at face value. Surely you're aware that the consensus of economic models show that raising the minimum wage decreases employment, empirical evidence be damned. To paraphrase the link, given the anti-regulation ideological bias of the economics profession as a whole, it's not hard to imagine that arguments supporting the efficacy of a tax holiday would be suppressed. Even the in one pocket out the other argument looks weaker when one considers how gas prices are less elastic today than they used to be, refiners and distributors have had to eat some of the rising crude oil costs.

[ Parent ]
You Have A VERY Narrow Conception of Populism (0.00 / 0)
That's #1.

All models are not created equal.

That's #2.

And all situations are not created equal.

That's #3.

Even the in one pocket out the other argument looks weaker when one considers how gas prices are less elastic today than they used to be, refiners and distributors have had to eat some of the rising crude oil costs.

Really?  Link?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
squeezed refiners (0.00 / 0)
WaPo yesterday: Believe it or not, the business of buying crude oil and "cracking" it into gasoline, diesel, jet fuel and heating oil is losing money.

But I heard similar reports weeks ago.

Most populist initiatives involve some kind of income redistribution, so I don't think I'm being overly narrow. And you have to grant that Republicans have their own strand of populism. No, not all models are equal, but the argument from authority (200 economists signed a letter!) is pretty weak.


[ Parent ]
Oh, INDEPENDENT Refiners (0.00 / 0)
Who have no power.

Talk about a red herring argument.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
This is very interesting (0.00 / 0)
And there is a lot to think about. I have a preliminary question, though.

I think I understand the differences between the "progressive" and "populist" approaches you are talking about, but I am just curious whether there is not a problem with an insider taking the populist approach. How exactly does an insider or a politician go about building institutions that are by their very nature situated outside of the political process.

Ronald Reagan killed the fairness doctrine, right? Despite this being a regulatory change that didn't itself change things dramatically, it allowed the rise of one of the Right's most powerful tools of in the Gramscian culture war, Right Wing Radio. Couldn't Obama's progressive, proceedural reforms have similarly dramatic effects in the culture war you are talking about? Preserving the free internet would let the middle class liberals establish more power of the type you're talking aboutn and the Employee Free Choice Act would do the same (with much more dramatic short term results) for the populists. Aren't these the type of legislative fixes that give us space for the institutions we need?

I support John McCain because children are too healthy anyway.


You're Absolutely Right (4.00 / 2)
Both preogressive reforms per se, and insider action in general (pretty much all legislation) can certainly work to enhance as well as undermine populist power--not to mention playing up progressive vs. conservative versions of populism.

One of the simplest examples of this right now would be shifting to the card check system for certifying unions.

The problem I'm focusing on, however, is the mindset that says, while we might do something here and there that boosts one particular form of populist power, our overall approach is to discount and oppose it, except when there's a specific reason not to.  And this is what I think comes with the whole "post-partisan" mindset that Obama is pushing, as well as with most of the self-consciously "creative class"-style politics.

Net Neutrarily, of course, falls into one of those "specific reasons not to," but the amount of struggle involved in this fight is indicative of how hard it is to fight on behalf of a specific, when it's not simply a logical consequence flowing from a broader orientation that's univerally embraced.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Thanks (4.00 / 2)
I definitely see your point. I think it is a very accurate criticism of Obama and post-partisanship. Maybe "creative class" politics too, if by that you mean what educationaction described; middle class people in single interest groups working with those in power on their specific issue. Obviously  that is also a problematic anti-populist approach to politics.

Isn't it weird then, that until Obama came along the net was a bastion for those who wanted a more aggressive and populist political discourse? Who would have thought that if you put a lot of frustrated creative class types online together, they all advocated for populism.

Actually, maybe that is the split that we're seeing now. For whatever reason the early political blogs were mainly populated by aggressive partisans who wanted a more populist approach to politics. As the population has grown though, many more middle class people have joined who might not have that same approach. Perhaps Obama has just tapped into the potential that was already there, given that so many people on the net fit into the middle class demographics that one might expect to oppose real populist action.

I support John McCain because children are too healthy anyway.


[ Parent ]
Slightly disagree (4.00 / 3)
"Who would have thought that if you put a lot of frustrated creative class types online together, they all advocated for populism."

I think they wanted a more partisan approach. They wanted Democrats to fight. But not necessarily be populist (i.e. Kos).

The Sherrod Brown/Paul Hackett (non)-contest in 2006 might be an example of this. The populists (more the social democratic New Deal Democrats types) went for Brown, whereas many more of whom didn't particularly care about economic justice, but more cared about a politican who "was tough" went for Hackett. It was a strange situation though, because Chris obviously likes to call himself part of the creative class, and I'm pretty sure he was a Brown supporter (but again, Chris has much broader experience, such as a union organizer and has a very well developed ideology), and Kos stayed neutral or slightly Brown. So I don't know. Maybe the lesson is to not paint groups with broad brush-strokes.  


[ Parent ]
I Think You're Both Right! (4.00 / 1)
And there's probably a couple of more perspectives that could add to this as well.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Yes, I Definitely Think This Is Part Of What Was Happening (0.00 / 0)
But it's anybody's guess what comes next, I think.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
My guess... (or at least hope) (0.00 / 0)
I like to think that as the more tech savvy generations come into their own the USA (crossing my fingers) enacts a comprehensive national broadband plan, the net will see a whole host of new dynamics develop. I think it is obvious that the feminist and African American blogospheres are developing in innovative ways, but I would imagine that there is a lot that could happen in Spanish language (or is it already and I just don't know about it?) and generally more working class oriented areas. Maybe an expansion of groups along the lines of MoveOn? Color of Change and J Street are both obviously mimicking the model, but I'm sort of surprised more groups haven't tried it. Not that I love the single issue model of activism, but it certainly seems like there's space for that type of group on a whole variety of issues.

Unions have obviously been working hard at reaching out on the net, but I'd imagine that as a much greater percentage of the public becomes comfortable with creating content and networking online we might see a whole lot more happening with user generated content and activism.

As you said though, it is anybody's guess.

I support John McCain because children are too healthy anyway.


[ Parent ]
Process vs. Policy (4.00 / 3)
This is excellent, as usual.  And I agree with basically everything in it.  

But, and maybe I'm missing something, I'm having trouble teasing apart the policy and the process issues, here.

Yes, at least on the surface Obama seems like the kind of progressive you describe, with some caveats I'll get at in a moment.  But as you note with your reference to the labor issue, he still might win on incredibly important policies with key implications for increasing the power of people very much not like him.  If he is able to do this with his approach, then I'm not sure I have much problem with it.  I want someone who can fight for the things we need.  Am I missing something?

A key caveat to seeing Obama as embodying the general progressive vision of wanting the working-class and the upper class to become more like middle class "let's chat the whole thing through" and "we'll agree eventually, it's just a rational disagreement" kind of people is that Obama was and still is clearly someone who thinks from an organizing perspective.  He does know something about mobilizing people, which the early progressives didn't.  In fact, they didn't really want to mobilize the working-class for the reasons you state.  So this seems pretty different.

Another issue is that the organizing perspective falls somewhere between the progressive and populist visions, in a useful way, I think.  The organizing vision looks not to change people in any fundamental, deep way, but instead tries to figure out what the most minimal changes would be required to empower people to work collectively, with some added attention to values more recently.  Did I write about this?  I don't remember.  In any case, the organizing vision is, in fact, deeply non-partisan, at the same time as it is extremely aggressive on particular issues.  

In fact, I would describe the organizing approach as deeply rooted in working-class realities, given that it focuses on the idea that each battle is essentially zero-sum.  

If Obama is speaking in organizing instead of progressive language, what he means is that these are non-partisan issues that we need to fight like hell about, kicking the ass of those people who disagree with "us."  The train is leaving the station.  Get on or get left out.  

It seems like he is speaking in both ways.  He is kind of like an old progressive.  But the old progressives never heard about Alinsky.  This is an issue that you have generally left in the background.  But the fact that he has structured his entire campaign around organizing makes it clear that this perspective is central to his thinking, if not in exactly the same way as traditional organizers.

One final thought that I mean to write about at some point.  What Obama seems to be doing is campaign organizing, not community organizing.  Campaign organizers have generally used community organizing techniques for short-term ends, potentially contaminating them for those who come after them. Community organizing is about long-term relationships between people on the local level.  Campaign organizing is about getting people to the polls and then you go home till next time.  It is not clear to me which of these Obama is pushing.  And I'm sure it is some combination of the two.  But how this combination works out is crucial.  

I hope this is coherent, I'm still mulling over what you are and have been talking about

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


It's Very Coherent, And You Make Some Very Good Points (0.00 / 0)
My intent here was to clearly establish a perspective that captures what concerns me about Obama's approach, and how people respond to it.  You've advanced the discussion by pointing out some ways that Obama is not like the classic progressives, and I agree with most of what you say.

But how I would characterize this agreement is that Obama's perspective is still grounded in the classical progressive outlook. That explains, for example, the willingness to use Alinsky-derived organizing techniques in ways that ultimately fold back toward classical progressive ideals and purposes.  To clarify further--I believe he differs from the classical progressives in having the tools and experience of community organizing, but the aims he currently seems to have in mind are those that flow from a progressive-style POV--as evidenced, for example, in his aversion to confrontation (which I have heard was something that he was faulted for even when he was working as a community organizer).  

This does not mean that I think he is frozen where he is, however.  I think it is possible that if he's properly challenged, he could develop in a more populist-friendly direction.  But that's not very likely unless challenged by people with a clear sense of what's lacking in his approach as it currently stands.

When you say this:

If Obama is speaking in organizing instead of progressive language, what he means is that these are non-partisan issues that we need to fight like hell about, kicking the ass of those people who disagree with "us."  The train is leaving the station.  Get on or get left out.
 

All I can say is "I hope you are right."  But I'm not convinced by anything I've seen so far.

Finally, your concluding paragraph about campaign organizing vs. community organizing, and the lingering uncertainty of precisely where Obama is headed with what he's doing seems to get very close to the heart of the matter for me.  This is precisely the sort of questioning that needs to go on, IMHO.

Finally, I'd like to make an offer, if you're interested--which is simply that if you feel moved to write something longer in the way of a reaction or response, I would be happy to front page it.  I really do want to spur a discussion of these issues and you have a really superior understanding of them, that we all can learn from.

But, of course "mere" comments are good, too.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The Confrontation Issue (4.00 / 1)
is key, of course.  But he seems to have done okay with Hillary.  I'm with you on this worry, but I'm not sure the conservatives in congress will actually let him avoid confrontation.  This may actually play into our favor.  But there's no way to tell.  His preference for non-confrontation could turn his presidency into a total disaster, or, if he is non-confrontational but also doesn't back down, it might be a benefit.  Teflon or tissue-paper?

I'm still not clear about what you mean about aims--and this may result from my not having really examined Obama's policy statements in real detail, to be honest.  

But I would say that a key issue with the progressives was not necessarily their programs--although some of them were not great--but with their process vision.  John R. Commons and his ilk did amazing stuff.  Their vision for democracy was incredibly paternalistic.  The organizing vision for democracy isn't paternalistic in this same way, even though it acknowledges that everybody has stuff to learn.

So is the reason that Obama doesn't sound like Edwards because of his grounding in progressivism?  The early progressives might have loved the kind of "risk" issue you discuss, for example.  

By the way, there is potentially another split, here, in visions of democracy, and this one is internal to the working-class.  I am weak on labor history, although I'm working on it, but Clayton Sinyai's recent Schools of Democracy lays out a conflict between fighting for rights with union power, or fighting for political programs that will serve the working class, but potentially remove control of these programs from them and place them at the whims of the political climate.  The book is an attempt to reclaim Gompers's AFL vision despite its elitism, and seems both convicing and to fit with what other historians have said.  This seems like it may be an even more important split, and related to the technocratic Obama issue.  The technocratic solutions are solutions, but how sustainable are they over the long term?  What kinds of politics do they sustain.  That's why any change in the labor law may be the most important outcome of an Obama administration, even if it's not his focus.

Thanks for the offer, and thanks for front-paging my earlier stuff.  I'm actually working on a different more generic post on organizing right now that I'll get up tomorrow.  I'm planning on writing one on Obama and organizing, but I want to understand better what he's doing before I do, and I'm juggling a bunch of different projects.  I'm not sure exactly how he's structuring his organizing, and the specifics are key to understand before I try to look at it.    Anyway, I'm not sure about what exactly you were thinking I might write about out of this, but I'm not ready to write a front page piece specifically about Obama and his current organizing vision yet.  

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


[ Parent ]
This All Sounds Very Interesting (0.00 / 0)
I'm defintely looking forward to seeing you explore these concerns in greater depth.  There's no rush on anything.  Consider that a standing offer.

So is the reason that Obama doesn't sound like Edwards because of his grounding in progressivism?  The early progressives might have loved the kind of "risk" issue you discuss, for example.
 

Actually, that's one reason that I've pushed it.  It's a wonky sort of idea, but it has enormous significance in terms of benefitting those who are getting squeezed the most.  And, at the same time, it has an appeal that reaches broadly across class lines--particularly since even those over the 80th percentile are at increasing risk of sudden loss of income and security to a degree that was once inconceivable.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Three Different Arguments? (0.00 / 0)
So it seems like there are at least three key issues, here.

First there is progressive elitism around democratic practices.  To be an authentic democratic citizen you need to take on middle-class culture and practices.

Second there is the technocratic issues of progressivism.

And third there is a post-materialist failure to recognize that the middle-class is economically vulnerable.  Which isn't necessarily about progressivism, per se.

I may have had a more sophisticated conception earlier this morning, but it is now lost in the fog.  

I lay this out because of this paragraph in your post:

Thus far, Obama doesn't seem very inclined to move in such a direction-even though doing so could have significantly undercut Clinton's advantage among less-secure, lower-income voters.  Obama remains locked into a middle-class, classic progressive mindset that is, unfortunately, blind to it's own material vulnerability, via the enormous rise in risk that Hacker is talking about-risk that has been shifted onto the very individuals who find Obama's rhetoric so appealing.

Aren't you mixing #2 and #3, above, here?  Not recognizing one's own vulnerability is not necessarily progressive (except in particular moments, e.g., 1920s and counter-culture intellectuals).  And, in fact, many progressive programs were designed to create a safety net and to equalize working conditions and experiences for everyone, even though they were focused on the working-class and the poor.  

Hmm. . . .  Maybe there is a #4, the focus on improving the situations of the most vulnerable in society (albiet through technocratic, top-down, educational and social program approaches).

For me, it is helpful to tease out these different threads, because I think they emerge out of somewhat different sets of historical/economic/cultural threads, especially the post-material one you have mentioned.  I'm not sure I have them teased out in the most useful way, however.

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


[ Parent ]
Diffrent But Linked (0.00 / 0)
I guess I'm more conscious of these arguments being linked.  For example, I think that possession of a particularized skill set is a common thread connecting them all.  The progressives tended to conceive of democracy in terms of a given skill set, and the actions of those who possesed it.  In turn, those possesed of this skill set tend to regard themselves as privileged and protected by it.  This is one way, right of the top, that the three arguments are interconnected.

Obviously there's a lot more here that needs exploring.  But I would suggest maybe a #5 as well, which has to do with giving away the skill set.

At the most basic level it's the old "give a man a fish/teach a man to fish" kind of thing, but it also goes to the question of whether the organizing tools and experience that, for example, Obama is spreading around via his campaign really are going to be more widely diffused and appropriated for doing a much wider range of work.  My sense is that this won't just happen, but that some astute organizers, seeing a more widely dispersed group of people with skills out there, may start to stretgize about how they can be organized to take on some very different sorts of tasks.

This is very much just off the top of my head, so I could re-read this tomorrow, and say, OMG, what was I thinking.  But right now, it seems like at least worth thinking about, particularly as it feeds back to the maintstream of your ongoing cojncerns, as I understand them.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Not to belabor the point (0.00 / 0)
but #3, the refusal to face up to material risk, isn't really a part of the skill set, is it?  Anyway, good points.  I like this idea of the overall skill set.  

I actually just sent an email to the Obama folks asking if they could give me more info about their organizing approach and especially the "fellows" program they are pushing.  I'll be interested to see if they respond.  

Another issue is that organizers create "organizations," not just individuals with some skills, or even loose groups with some sense of strategies of social action.  So I, also, wonder whether this will amount to much if it isn't tied into some real institutional support.  And, of course (as Piven and Cloward pointed out long ago and as I allude to in my latest diary) the very act of institutionalization can be limiting.  But especially with people at the bottom of the economic ladder, without an actual organization to maintain structure, the whole thing can easily fall apart.  

Also, as I've noted before, if Obama has a lot of power to direct the institution, then that may create some real contradictions and tensions moving forward.  Is it really community organizing if the actions are determined from above?  Is this more like a turn to the right wing approach?  But can we build real power if we don't have a centralized vision running things (because we end up like organizing is, today, with a whole bunch of local organizing groups that can't easily be pulled together to fight national campaigns)?  

Should be interesting!

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


[ Parent ]
A Clarification (0.00 / 0)
What I meant re #3 is that possessing the skill set is part of what gives them the illusion of not being at risk, which then contributes to the refusal to face up to the material risk.

And, yes, to all the other stuff, so far as thinking it's important goes.  There would be more plausible answers to the contradictions you indicate, if we had a much more vibrantly democratic organizing culture.

But it's a real problem that even organizers themselves (and certainly "activists") seem to be far too passive in waiting for someone else to define the problem, the challenge, the mission for them.

It's yet another case of needing to "be the change you want" as Ghandi would say.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
and seconding Paul's point ... (4.00 / 1)
i'm also very interested in seeing what you have to say once you're ready!

[ Parent ]
FDR and all that (0.00 / 0)
Fascinating post, as always. I would be interested to hear how the progressive/populist dichotomy applies to FDR and the New Deal. It's a part of history I don't know enough about, but my general impression is that FDR came into office as an eminent pragmatist. I don't know if he was a technocrat for the people, quite, but I do think he had a pretty non-ideological approach to dealing with some very large problems. Given that a lot of the greatest progressive (or populist?) accomplishments of the 20th century occurred on his watch, it would be interesting to think about what his approcah to governing would have looked like, and what one would have expected, from the perspective of 1932.

Incidentally, or not, it would also be interesting in light of the fact that the New Deal coalition dominated government for the next 36 years. And if you're inclined to think 2008 might  be another realigning election, the question becomes even more salient.


Was pretty ideological (0.00 / 0)
Quote from 1936 speech at convention,

"These economic royalists complain that we seek to overthrow the institutions of America. What they really complain of is that we seek to take away their power. Our allegiance to American institutions requires the overthrow of this kind of power. In vain they seek to hide behind the Flag and the Constitution. In their blindness they forget what the Flag and the Constitution stand for. Now, as always, they stand for democracy, not tyranny; for freedom, not subjection; and against a dictatorship by mob rule and the over-privileged alike."

He really believed in the a social democratic state.  


[ Parent ]
1936 Was His Ideological Highpoint (4.00 / 2)
But even then he was more ideological in attitude than in methodology.

He remained a pragmatist at heart, however.  Which is why he shifted attention so resolutely as he became aware of the true nature and depth of the Nazi threat, even while others failed to grasp it.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yes (4.00 / 1)
I agree. But still...compared to what we've heard from the Democratic standard bearers in the last 50 years, that's pretty darn revolutionary.


[ Parent ]
It's Complicated... (4.00 / 1)
I think that FDR was a consumate pragmatist.  He knew that things needed to get done, and he was willing to try whatever might have a chance of working.  But, of course, he was working in a time when there were a lot of other powerful forces at work in the land, both friends and foes.

Just one illustration: There's a common misconception that his administration was following Keynsian economics.  They weren't.  They were thrashing around, doing some things that were compatible with Keyndian theory, but they didn't actually know the theory until after the fact.  And, in fact they did a very un-Keynsian thing by trying to balance the budget in the late 30s, leading to the recession of 1937-38, which is what finally convinced them to abandon their old understanding of the market.

I defintely do see 2008 as another realigning election, but I think it may be more like 1896, where it took some time afterwards to define just what that meant.  Hopefully, we won't be nearly as messy as that.  But I think it's inevitable that we will be more like that than I would like.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
speaking of dooming to repeat ourselves (0.00 / 0)
I do wonder which elections this one is "most like".

You say 1896. How about 1920 in reverse? Champ Clark (Democratic speaker of the house from MO, who lost his seat after 26 years in the 1920 election) spit out one word to describe why the Democrats got slaughtered, "Wilson!".

An unpopular war and a very unpopular president. Discontent at home with rising prices for food (fuel too if they'd had a lot of cars back then). And a general disgust with the way things were going in the country. The republicans swept into power with a promise of return to "normalcy". Again the mirror image of today with the Democrats sweeping to power on "change".


[ Parent ]
It Wasn't A Realigning Election (0.00 / 0)
There really is a value in looking at the larger patterns of American electoral history.

The 1920 election was a disaster for the Democrats.  But it was a stand-alone wave election.  There are lots of stand-alone wave elections.  There are very few back-to-back wave elections.  (The 1922 electiion was a wave election for Democrats--alternative wave elections are more common than back-to-back waves for the same party.)

Now, by historical standards, the 2006 election was a small wave.  But the amplitude of seat-shifts has declined drastically since the 1960s, and in the present era, 2006 clearly qualified as a significant wave election. This year has all the makings of being even larger.  Ergo, this will, in all probability, be a realigning presidential election.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I hope (4.00 / 1)
But I'm not convinced yet. I think the corporate structures are still too strong to make that happen...yet.

That's partly why I mentioned 1920 as well. Temporarily it did look like a re-aligning election. The Democratic Party was relegated to regional status (just the deep South and some urban machines). Now I would hope that republicans would permanently be relegated to the deep south and Utah, but again, not sure it's gonna happen yet.

I just thought it was an interesting comparison (idle comparison more like it) because of the unpopular war, unpopular president, and dramatic shift in government policies from one administration (Wilson/Bush) to the next (Harding/Obama).  


[ Parent ]
That's A Good Point About The Strength Of Corporate Structures (0.00 / 0)
Have you read my Three Waves and a Wall diary series.  It specifically deals with this collision between the forces of change and the those of resistence.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Thanks! (0.00 / 0)
I'll check it out as I continue to procrastinate and not get my work done :)

[ Parent ]
Realigning Elections (4.00 / 2)
Paul, I would agree, 2008 has the potential to be a significant realigning election, similar to 1896 in terms of the identity of the States in the electorial coalition, though in 1896, it was the Republicans who won it.  What's necessary to comprehend is that these periodic realignments are the result of party fractures in weak national party systems, and are accomplished less as changes to a different party, more as the break off of factions of older party coalitions moving into the new electorial coalition.  08 ought to complete, for instance, the movement of the New England Progressive Republicans into the Democratic Orbit, enlarge the mid-west, Mississippi Valley Democratic Electorate, and see the shift in the inter-mountain West come to fruition, and possibly see several old confederate states make the shift into the mid-atlantic region.  Moreover, we should not view the realignments as complete till after 2010, and the census followed by reapportionment. How Democratically Progressive it ultimately turns out to be, I think, has much to do with how organization at the state and local level appreciate what happens, and exploit opportunities.  

I actually don't interpret Obama's references to "working across the aisle" so much as non-partisianship as I see it as building the undergirding for this realignment.  It is a nice non threatening vanilla way of putting the real power shifts.  


[ Parent ]
Agreed (0.00 / 0)
The specific regions you mention are all on my radar, too.  I was even thinking about doing a diary on North Carolina today, but didn't quite have the time to do it right.  But I think North Carolina and Virginia are both ripe to shift more towards a mid-Atlantic framework vs. their traditional Southern framework.  The significance of this will only grow over time, IMHO.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Another incredible post (0.00 / 0)
The perspective of history as well as the revelation of the differences helps me understand my own principles as well as help to formulate ideas to move my campaign to better represent them.

I feel like I'm somewhere in between middle class and working class which I suspect is not all that uncommon. What's important to me is the recognition of that and a vigilance to detect a pull one way or the other.

More important somewhat akin to what happened after reading The Authoritarians is a recognition of the thought patterns of others and that my thoughts and ideas don't constitute a substantive reality.  


Nice thing about unions (0.00 / 0)
Is that they brought the working class into the middle class.

[ Parent ]
I disagree (0.00 / 0)
Also, like it or not, where one party systems do exist, the result is invariably tyranny.

How did you get from Obama's campaign rhetoric to talking about one party tyrannical systems? Gigantic mental leaps like this show me that you've first reached a conclusion, then started looking for evidence to justify it.

They presume the possibility of universally valid, disiniterested, technical approaches to policymaking that can be univerally acceptable to all-if the policymaking process is done right.

I'd take you more seriously if you extensively quoted Obama (both from what he has said plus from his "Blueprint for Change" document). But your diary is strangely devoid of such quotes. Without them, I tend to believe you are making things up to fit a conclusion you've already reached.

There's a difference between post-ideology and post-partisan. Ideologues (like Bill Kristol) keep pushing the same ideas regardless of whether they work or not. Ideologues have no interest in trying to determine whether their policies are working because they just "know" that they will (see abstinence only education). Partisans are about loyalty to a party and loyalty to the more mushy set of overall party goals.

I believe Obama is arguing more against rigid ideology (on both sides) as opposed to partisanship. He is, after all, a member of a party! He has not tried to run as a third party candidate. FDR was not ideological. His administration tried a whole bunch of stuff, some of which was decidedly not progressive. He then tossed out what didn't work and kept what did. That is how I see Obama operating.

It is interesting to me that you would have had tremendous difficulty judging FDR while he ran for office, since he did not explain what he meant by "new deal". If you were writing diaries at that time, I believe you would have seized on his patrician upbringing and style to argue against his nomination.


Let's Be Clear (4.00 / 1)
(1)
I disagree

Also, like it or not, where one party systems do exist, the result is invariably tyranny.

How did you get from Obama's campaign rhetoric to talking about one party tyrannical systems? Gigantic mental leaps like this show me that you've first reached a conclusion, then started looking for evidence to justify it.

Hold on there!  I'm not accusing Obama of wanting to be a dictator, as you seem to be assuming.  I'm simply pointing out the perils in a "be careful what you wish for" kind of way.

We all know, for example, that the Founding Fathers didn't like the notion of parties, which called "factions", and they imagined creating a system free from them.  So obviously, we know that someone can yearn for such a direction without being dictatorial (though in John Adams' case, not so much).

We also know that that didn't work out.

The point is, regardless of what your intentions are, if you do manage to get a one-party system instead of a two- or more-party system, then the result you get is, statistically, overwhelmingly likely to be some sort of dictatorship.  In my mind, that should pretty much cure anyone of the desire for getting rid of partisan conflict.  To paraphrase Winston Churchill, "Partisan conflict is the worst thing in politics, except for the lack of partisan conflict."

(2)

I'd take you more seriously if you extensively quoted Obama (both from what he has said plus from his "Blueprint for Change" document). But your diary is strangely devoid of such quotes. Without them, I tend to believe you are making things up to fit a conclusion you've already reached.

There are many different forms of analysis that have longstanding traditions.  The fact that you would associate the decision not to engage in textual analysis as proof of bad faith says a great deal more about you than it does about me.

(3) Using Bill Kistrol as a stand-in for all ideologues is extremely unfair and misleading.  Being an ideologue doesn't necessarily mean you are rigid or close-minded, although many ideologues are certainly both.  It merely means that one is an advocate of an ideology.  Furthermore, one can be an advocate of an ideology without believing that it's the one true right and only way to solve all the world's problems.  I'm an advocate of all sorts of ideologies--radical feminism, social democracy, social contrast theory, anti-racism, etc.  Some of these ideologies are significantly more specified than others.  But they are all ideologies I advocate, and that makes me an ideologue.

As Yogi Berra would say, "You could look it up."

(4) Finally, for the umpteen millionth time, the attempt to equate Obama with FDR just won't wash.  FDR had none of Obama's Rodney King fantasy.  He was very willing to work with anyone who would work with him.  And he was willing to crack heads, if people weren't. The two men are as different as night and day.

Furthermore, FDR certainly was a non-ideological pragmatist in the sense that no one knew at that time what to do about the economy, because the Great Depression defied understanding in the existing economic frameworks of the time.

But he was clearly ideological in the sense that he knew he wanted to take care of the great mass of people who were suffering, rather than just take care of business interests and hope that everyone else would be okay without lifting a finger for them.  In short, he had an ideology of helping the little guy with an actitivist government, even if he didn't have a blueprint in mind ahead of time of how that had to be done.

So, once again, you are confusing being ideological with being rigid, inflexible or overly-specified vs. one's knowledge base.

Plus, FDR already had a record as Governor of New York, where he had created the largest, most activist social welfare system in the nation.  He absolutely tried to steer clear of tying himself down in advance, because the situation was so incredibly fluid.  That hardly meant that people had no idea what sort of orientation he had. They could just look at what he'd done in New York.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Addams/Dewey Progressives? (0.00 / 0)
Paul,

I think I'm gonna need to come back to this later, because I'm desperately trying to finish off grading and other projects, but I just wanted to throw this out so I'd have a reminder to come back. Without disputing your overall characterizations of early 1900s progressives, how would you characterize those like Jane Addams and John Dewey whose work in settlement houses and education was probably along the reformer-as-organizer path that you ascribe to Obama, but wanted to get the masses more involved in democracy - not just politically, but socially and economically as well? I have a sense that you'd characterize them as "wanting the masses to be more like them," but I'm wondering if that's necessarily a bad thing if "more like them" includes having more tools to participate and exercise real freedom.


I Think That's A Very Tricky Question We Still Struggle With Today (0.00 / 0)
It can both be a noble, uplifting egalitarian sentiment (not to mention, effective, to boot) and a way of perpectuating one's own self-importance (which might not be a bad thing, in all cases).

In short, I think this is one of those areas where more fine-grained empiricism is called for.  But maybe I just haven't encountered the right synthetic analysis yet.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I'm also running out (0.00 / 0)
But just a short note that Addams's vision of "organizing" was extremely "progressive" in the sense Paul is representing this.  She explicitly opposed the kind of "zero-sum" organizing that labor unions engage in, and was trying to get everyone to see that they could work it all out rationally if they had sufficient empathy (although a labor union did work out of Hull House at one point).  

So, no, they are not organizers in a non-progressive sense.  

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)


[ Parent ]
Thanks for the Reply (0.00 / 0)
Like I said, I'm gonna try to come back to this, but the discussion may well have moved on by then. So thanks for the reply. Personality-wise, I think I'm a lot more sympathetic to the Dewey/Addams model than you are, and to the contemporary "deliberative democrats" that (in some ways) have a similar "let's everybody do this the right way" attitude. I recognize the criticism that methods of deliberation can lock some people out of the process or be used as a means to slow down change. But I can't shake a gut feeling that something like the Dewey/Addams approach is what's necessary to get more citizens involved on an ongoing basis - it's the kind of institutional/background preparation that you look at through the culture war prism.

And I have to give double credit for the REM references, to boot. :)


[ Parent ]
Actually, I'm A Big Fan of the Deliberative Democracy Route (0.00 / 0)
What I'm not a fan of is thinking that it's sufficient in itself, and has nothing to learn from other perspectives.  And I think it's very important to highlight the negative consequences and/or implications that fall into the model's blindspots.

The quick-and-dirty way to describe my orientation is "progressive populism" that aims to use the strengths of each to correct the weaknesses of the other.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
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