More Veep: Sebelius By Process of Elimination

by: Chris Bowers

Mon May 12, 2008 at 13:48


The Obama vice-presidential poll has finished up, with 2,524 total votes. Bill Richardson was the top choice, even if some pro-Sebelius stuffing toward the end made it close. There seem to be four tiers, with Richardson, Sebelius, and Webb in the top tier, Feingold and Clark in the second tier, and everyone else except Pelosi in the third tier, as Pelosi occupies a fourth tier all her own.

Looking through the many discussions of vice-presidential choices that I have seen online, the debate still seems to be dominated by a "bonus" perspective. For most people, the driving criteria in the discussion appears to be figuring out what each potential candidate can add to a ticket with Obama at the helm, specifically framed in terms of shoring up perceived weaknesses Obama currently displays. Potential veeps are discussed in terms of what states they can help add that Obama cannot win on his own, what demographics they can appeal to that Obama cannot win on his own, or what characteristics they can bring to an Obama administration that he would lack on his own. Yet again, I feel the need to emphasize that this is faulty thinking, since choosing a candidate for such a reason will actually do more to point out Obama's current weaknesses than to actually shore them up. Rather than helping Obama win a state, it will instead emphasize that Obama is weak in that state. Rather than helping Obama with a given demographic, it will weaken Obama with that demographic. Rather than give Obama more credibility on a given personality or administrative characteristic, it will emphasize that he is lacking is that characteristic. As I wrote five months ago:

John Edwards was charismatic, populist and southern compared to the stiff, patrician, northeastern Kerry. Joe Lieberman was moralistic and anti-Clinton, supposedly "balancing" Al Gore's ties to Clinton scandals but instead emphasizing the Clinton scandals. Dick Cheney was experienced and accomplished, emphasizing Bush's perceived inexperience and incompetence, a problem Bush still faces. Jack Kemp was, well, I still don't get that one. Quayle was young and attractive, emphasizing Bush Sr.'s age and crust, a problem that helped to eventually undo him against Clinton. Lloyd Benson was southern and conservative, emphasizing the problems Reagan Democrats caused for Dems in the 1980's rather than helping to bridge intra-party gaps. Bush Sr. was viewed as a Republican moderate, emphasizing Reagan's perceived extremism ("voodoo economics," among others), a problem for Reagan that kept Carter in the campaign until the final two weeks. Mondale was a Midwestern populist, again emphasizing something that Carter was not.

Instead of shoring up perceived weakness in the top of the ticket, choosing a Vice-President on the basis of "balance" only seems to exacerbate those weaknesses. It makes more sense for a campaign to choose a Vice-President whose argument to become President is the same one put forth by the top of the ticket. Emphasize your strengths, not your weaknesses. Instead of publicly admitting to major flaws on your part, demonstrate comfort in your own skin, and with your rationale to become President.

More in the extended entry.  

Chris Bowers :: More Veep: Sebelius By Process of Elimination
The more I think about it, the more I keep coming back to the "reinforcement" argument that Obama needs to choose a running mate who strengthens his campaign argument of change, unity and judgment rather than a "balancing" candidate who helps him out on experience, turning out the base, or military hawkish-ness. Any "balance" candidate will only emphasize Obama's personal flaws, rather than shoring up any of his perceived weaknesses. That is simply a bad strategy, even if it is so deeply ingrained in the Democratic psyche that it might be impossible to remove even via a lobotomy at this point.

Now, given this, consider the "judgment" issue Obama has used as a central component of his campaign since the day he announced. The basic argument is that even though Obama has less experience in D.C., he would still make a better commander in chief because he displayed excellent judgment in opposing the Iraq war before it began. In essence, vote for Obama because opposition to the war is the sort of judgment we need from a President. However, if Obama picks a VP who supported the war before it began, why should anyone vote for him, according to his own argument? The simple answer is that he can't, because choosing a VP who supported the war before it began is a direct admission that our next president can have good judgment even if s/he screwed up on Iraq. It would create a contradiction in one of his central arguments to become president, and also throw his won judgment into question. After all, he has made it clear that those who supported the war before it began have bad judgment, and should not be President. Further, it wouldn't just wipe away Obama's advantage on judgment, it would actually create a judgment problem for him, since he just contradicted himself. How can anyone trust Obama's judgment if he changes his mind about what constitutes good judgment in order to try and win an extra state or two in the general election?

It is essential that Obama choose a running mate who opposed the war from the start. This criteria quickly eliminates a wide swath of potential VP candidates, including Bill Richardson, Wesley Clark, Hillary Clinton, Janet Napolitano, Tim Kaine, Joe Biden, Chris Dodd, Claire McCaskill, and Tom Dsachle.  The most commonly mentioned names for Obama's Veep who opposed the war from the start are Kathleen Sebelius, Jim Webb, Russ Feingold, Brian Schweitzer, Sherrod Brown, and Ted Strickland. Looking at each of these in more detail, we can narrow this already short list further:

  • Russ Feingold is basically only mentioned online, and is not someone I have heard much discussion of outside the blogosphere. I would also like to remove his name from consideration, even if there is no one I would rather see as President. The simple truth is that he is more valuable in the Senate, where is regularly, staunch, principled, and effectively progressive opposition to bad legislation is not matched by a single other member of the chamber. I'd take a 100% chance that he will stay in the Senate, with a 5% chance that he will become President, anyday.

  • Ted Strickland is anti-choice, sporting a 30% cote rating from NARAL. After a closely contested primary against a female candidate, for Obama to choose an anti-choice veep would be nightmarish in terms of trying to unify the party. Just a bad idea.

So, pretty quickly we have arrived at a short list of only four people: Brown, Schweitzer, Sebelius, and Webb. Looking a little deeper, there is another criteria that can be used to quickly eliminate both Brown and Schweitzer, at least temporarily: neither of them have endorsed Obama yet. Although the endorsement situation obviously could, and probably will, change, it should go without saying that it would be problematic to offer a VP spot to a person who hasn't actually endorsed you yet. So, until someone actually endorses Obama, that person should not be considered a viable VP option.

Pretty quickly, this has left us with only two candidates: Webb and Sebelius. These two were both in the top three choices in the straw poll, so they each have a lot of support online. Further, both also do a good job of reinforcing Obama's other campaign arguments: unity and change. Both have strong bi-partisan ("unity") records, Webb in working for Reagan, and Sebelius in convincing several high-ranking Kansas Republicans to become Democrats. Both also hit he "change" note pretty well, since Webb has only been a Senator for a couple of years and since Sebelius has been outside of D.C. since 1994. Among the very few other current Senators and Governors who opposed the war from the start and who have already endorsed Obama, such as Ted Kennedy, these two candidates pretty clearly surpass all other options on the "change" and "unity" front.

Now, comparing Webb and Sebelius themselves, as both a progressive and as an electoral strategist I don't think it is much of a contest. Sebelius appears to have a consistently strong progressive record, and a lengthy series of electoral victories that swan against the national and local tide. Webb, by contrast, is something of an electoral neophyte with a narrow primary victory and narrow general election victory under his belt. His Senate record is not particularly progressive (FISA being an egregious example), and I have also heard that he isn't exactly the most energetic or disciplined campaigner. Whatever flaws people may have found in Sebelius's State of the Union rebuttal, the comparison between these two does not feel like much of a comparison at all.

So, until some potentially better options begin endorsing Obama for President, right now, by process of elimination, I think Obama's best choice is definitely Kathleen Sebelius. Should either Sherrod Brown or Patty Murray endorse Obama, I could be persuaded to change my mind on this, since both of them would, I think, be extremely strong Veep choices for Obama. However, Brown remains neutral and Murray is currently backing Clinton. Right now, the only people that Obama should be realistically considering for his running mate are people who have been elected at the statewide level, who opposed the war from the beginning, and who have endorsed him for President. It is a pretty short list, but Sebelius tops it right now.  


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Sebelius is good... (4.00 / 4)
but don't limit it to sitting Senators.
Bob Graham man.
i've mentioned it in each of these threads so far, for many reasons.

But Ex-Governor, Ex-Senator Bob Graham was against the Iraq war from the start and is a reformer by nature... he is into the idea of regional primaries.

One can reinforce as well as shore up.

he sits for one term, then the new standard bearer runs with Obama in 2012.


This guy: (0.00 / 0)

 

 

Really?

(the one in the middle)



[ Parent ]
yes really. (4.00 / 2)
he was a short lister for John Kerry for damn good reason, the guy is a foreign policy powerhouse but part of the reality based community.

It doesn't hurt that he's from florida and popular with the old folks, but he shows reinforcement of Obama's message of "judgement", and is also an advocate of electotal reform.

We could do a hell of a lot worse then Bob Graham.
He reinforces and balances, and really has no negatives other then age... which is why he could just be asked to do one term.


[ Parent ]
I like Graham, too (0.00 / 0)
He ran for president but had a heart attack and was out of the running before he recovered. He's a great campaigner who's known for working alongside an ordinary person for a day. Wasn't he also chair of the Intelligence Committee?

[ Parent ]
Graham was reportedly on Gore's list too (0.00 / 0)
And Gore would be President right now if he had chosen Graham and put Florida out of reach instead of picking that Lieberman schmuck!

But today someone Graham's age would hardly be a "unity" choice for a young change candidate like Obama.

P.S. I'm surprised Chris doesn't mention the most obvious argument for a "unity" ticket: the highly successful "double-Bubba" ticket of young Southerners Clinton and Gore in 1992!

Howard Dean in 2016


[ Parent ]
nope. (0.00 / 0)
My dad is a proud union electrician, but was not Governor of Florida.

i'm just saying he's a good out of the box choice that shouldn't be discounted.

Xavier Becerra and Rush Holt either.


[ Parent ]
I agree entirely and it's exactly why I'm strongly against Webb (4.00 / 5)
Obama already has stronger judgment than McCain on the "commander-in-chief" test. Why would we point out that Obama thinks he's weak on foreign policy when Obama has so clearly insisted that this should be a non-issue? Moreover, why pick somebody who inexcusably screwed up on FISA?

Webb: Navy sexual harassment scandal (0.00 / 0)
I don't buy all the whining of Clinton supporters about sexism and misogyny, but wouldn't this be rubbing salt in the wounds of a lot of the people Obama needs to bring back into the fold?

miasmo.com

[ Parent ]
That's my #1 concern with Webb. (0.00 / 0)
He has said and written some really sexist things that could cause problems with Obama winning over female Clinton supporters. Same reason I am against Gov. Kaine or any other anti-choice VP pick.

[ Parent ]
My gut says.... (4.00 / 1)
There's a 75% chance he picks a woman and I would prefer Sebelius to Clinton. It becomes even more likely if McCain does the same. He should wait on McCain nonetheless. And I am less skeptical of an Obama-Clinton ticket than I was a week ago.

Yeah and plus also (4.00 / 1)
Kathleen Sebelius is totally hot. Not a small consideration.

[ Parent ]
good looks count for extra. (0.00 / 0)
you can't discount that in today's society at all.

[ Parent ]
Brown and Schweitzer will endorse, so let's consider them now (4.00 / 4)
Since they inevitably will endorse Obama, I don't think it's too early to put them in the same category as Webb and Sebelius.

I'm not sure why, but I'm increasingly drawn to Brown.


Maybe (4.00 / 3)
'Cause he's the man?

I support John McCain because children are too healthy anyway.

[ Parent ]
Campaign slogan (4.00 / 5)
"What can Brown do for you?"

[ Parent ]
ha! (4.00 / 4)
Good one. :)

I also like Obama-Brown as a campaign name. It's pretty funny, and reinforcing in a way, too.  


[ Parent ]
That all makes a great deal of sense, except (4.00 / 3)
I see no reason to wait on the endorsements. Obviously, they'll all endorse Obama sooner or later. I mean, why say 'should Brown or Murray endorse Obama ...' instead of '_when_ Brown and Murray endorse Obama ...' and if it's just a matter of time ... why wait?

And I find your reason for excluding Feingold a bit odd. If he weren't such a good Senator, then you'd support him for VP? I guess that makes an odd sorta sense, but I'm not entirely sure.

(And I know nothing about Murray ... help me Google!)


Hm (4.00 / 5)
If Schweitzer endorsed Obama would you consider him over Sebellius? He mysteriously fell off of your list and was replaced by Patty Murray. :)

I think the fact that Brown hasn't endorsed is a pretty good indicator that he likes Obama, since in a state where Clinton is very popular and the extremely popular governor has endorsed her, I can't imagine an incentive not to do so other than generally not wanting her or at least being undecided.

If Schweitzer, Brown and Murray don't endorse until, say, the convention, would that be too late? If they haven't endorsed Clinton yet, I doubt they will so it is really just a matter of time--with the latest possible date being the convention. When would they have to do it by to be reasonably considered as VP? When does the VP process traditionally get started?

I'll also take this as an opportunity to repeat that I think Brown is a great choice. He has experience without being an "experience" pick like Richardson that would make Obama look bad. He is a truly committed progressive who won easily in Ohio. He has strong "change" credentials, appeals to working class whites in the Midwest, opposed the war, and has no disqualifying unorthodoxies. The only downside is that he's a really great Senator to have, especially in a state like Ohio.

I would love to see a draft movement get started.

I support John McCain because children are too healthy anyway.


Schweitzer (4.00 / 2)
Hi Chris,

I second the question about why Schweitzer fell off the list.

I've seen him campaign, and was very impressed by both his energy, and his ability to retain slippery names, facts, and weave current events into off-the-cuff comments - would be an effective surrogate on the campaign trail.  

He's also the strongest on your short list (except perhaps Brown?) on environmental policy and climate change, something which will continue to grow in importance (esp. thinking about 2016).  

I was surprised to see him lower on the VP poll, but I think that's name recognition as much as anything.  

My expectation is that he is waiting for the Montana primary to endorse, and that he will do so immediately afterward (something which Brown didn't do after Ohio - so I think it's much less clear that Brown will endorse soon).  


[ Parent ]
Schweitzer is not great on the environment (4.00 / 4)
His major proposal for energy independence is to burn all the coal in Montana.  This would not be good.

That was an understatement.


[ Parent ]
Yeah (4.00 / 2)
I don't like that either. On the other hand, all indications are that Obama will make climate change a priority. Having someone like Schweitzer, who has real credibility with fish and game types, could be a big asset in building support for such a bill.

Obviously, if he is gonna undercut the Pres on environmental issues that should be an automatic disqualification.

I support John McCain because children are too healthy anyway.


[ Parent ]
Contrast that with (4.00 / 7)
Sebelius who has blocked two coal plants in Kansas despite having to veto bills overturning that 5 times. Once the legislature was 1 vote away from overturning her veto but she worked hard and blocked it. That is the kind of leadership that makes me feel good about her. She has some issues that she is not perfect on but she is surprisingly progressive on a lot of issues that are very important.

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power

[ Parent ]
Sebelius and Schweitzer (0.00 / 0)
Agreed about Sebelius' leadership on coal plants - that was gutsy.  And I'd like to clarify a few thoughts from my earlier comment:

1) By encouraging Matt and ya'll to give Schweitzer another look, I wasn't critiquing Sebelius - I ranked Schweitzer maybe 2 spots above Sebelius on the earlier poll, and I like them both as options!

2) Schweitzer's positions on coal are more nuanced than "burning all the coal in Montana."  The stuff worth critiquing is that he throws meat to the coal liquefaction guys now and then, which is worrisome.  On the other hand, the guy's a certified geologist, and can talk a very sophisticated talk, which in 1-2 speaking events I've been to have even included the magic words "low carbon fuel standard" - this is a way of saying you're for coal liquefaction research, without actually supporting coal since it really won't ever meet that standard.  Good framing.  

3) Most importantly, Schweitzer's environmental positions are a lot more than coal-related!!  What he does that I respect is HE TALKS ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT.  And not "just" global climate change, either - biodiversity loss, wilderness protection, air and water pollution, the whole mess - something not a single one of our other VP prospects seem interested in doing.  So I stand by my support for the guy.  


[ Parent ]
Good point (4.00 / 2)
I voted Richardson over Sebelius but I did not remember what Richardson's position on invading Iraq was in 2002/2003 - I merely remembered his strong opposition to continuing the occupation, during the presidential campaign.  If indeed he supported / did not oppose the initial invasion, I agree that rules him out as a good VP choice, and in that case, I'd vote Feingold #1 (as I did) and then Sebelius #2.

he had the Hillary position (4.00 / 1)
He basically supported the war, but he thought inspections should have been given more time.

Join us at the Missouri community blog Show Me Progress!

[ Parent ]
Of course, (0.00 / 0)
that goes against Obama's judgment on both ends--supported the war initially, and then goes for an aggressive withdrawal plan afterward

[ Parent ]
Wes Clark, meanwhile, opposed the war. (4.00 / 1)
Or so says wikipedia.

I realize I'm piggybacking to get upthread a little bit, but this seems vaguely important.  Wes Clark belongs on the original list of "people who opposed the war and thus reinforce Obama's judgment theme" at least.


[ Parent ]
Schweitzer would be nice, (4.00 / 2)
but i thought convention wisdom was he had "more work to do in Montana" right now, and wouldn't take VP.

I like Tim Kaine from VA.  Great for reinforcement of Obama's ousider, "bipartisanship," and rather than make Obama seem inexperienced as an older "cheney-type" of VP like Webb, would add gravitas to Obama's image.

Kaine would be the bulldog, whippersnapper, stirring up trouble, while Obama would be the cool mountain.  I can see it now . . .  


bulldog (4.00 / 2)
I have yet to see Tim Kaine ever EVER act like a bulldog.

Also he has said he will fill out his term.

Also the Lt. Gov in VA is a republican.


[ Parent ]
Kemp (0.00 / 0)
I believe it's because conservatives thought Dole lacked a killer instinct, and his Senate chief-of-staff (Sheila Burke) was a closet liberal and proved it on health care in 93-94.

Also because Dole was a balanced budget guy who voted against some tax cuts.

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Also (4.00 / 1)
(for a Republican) Kemp was really strong on affirmative action, and supposedly, he'd be able to peel off some African American votes

[ Parent ]
Your reasoning is very solid (4.00 / 3)
I couldn't agree with you more that the running mate should reinforce strengths rather than compensate for perceived weakness.  With cable news being what it is, if Obama were to choose someone like Wes Clark, we would never hear the end of how weak Obama is on defense and national security.

However, I think you are wrong to exclude Russ Feingold for the reasons you state.  There is no doubt that he is valuable in the Senate, so much so that if we could clone him, we probably would.  However, when we consider how manifestly possible it is that an Obama administration could be as disappointing as the Clinton years in terms of actual progressive change, then Feingold's potential value in the White House can perhaps not be understated.

Obama has said that he intends to expand the military, even though the United States spends more on defense than the rest of the world combined.  He is clearly comfortable with coal and nuclear power playing key roles in his energy policy.  His healthcare plan is obviously disappointing to anyone who thinks medical care should not be administered on a for-profit basis.  

I think Obama has the capacity to govern as a progressive, but I have no clear-eyed reason to think that he will.  Feingold's influence as vice-president could be even more valuable than his impact as a U.S. Senator.


Senate influence? (4.00 / 2)
I'm not familiar with all the mundane details of how the senate works, but is there any reason he couldn't be actively involved as president of the senate? VPs these days tend to just go back for tie-breaker votes, but he could still be very valuable if he could take an active leadership role on important legislation. He wouldn't get to vote on most of the bills, but as long as his seat is filled by a solid Democrat I'm not sure it would matter that much.

[ Parent ]
Feingold (0.00 / 0)
Probably should have been more clear there, but I was referring to Chris' comments on the value of keeping Feingold in the senate versus having him in the whitehouse.

[ Parent ]
Good point (4.00 / 3)
I think the argument "we need him in the Senate" can be effectively countered with "we need him more in the White House".

I think this is such a valuable opportunity to reclaim the Democratic party as the party of progressive values that the influence of the vice-president is potentially much more significant than we might ordinarily think.

It is difficult to discern how progressive an Obama administration will be.  While I have misgivings about some of his stated policy positions, he has also been clear to distance himself from the DLC and certain "achievements" of the Clinton years.  It seems to me that he has the capacity to lead a slate of reform legislation the like of which has not been seen since FDR.  The influence of a progressive collaborator such as Russ Feingold could be the difference between such an administration and an otherwise disappointing period of compromise and political appeasement.

Chris, you should only favor Sebelius over Feingold if you think she would have a more progressive influence on the executive branch.


[ Parent ]
Xavier Becerra (4.00 / 2)
Solid progressive, against the war, great ratings from virtually every progressive vote rating organization.  Endorsed Obama in January. While not from a swing state, would be an especially effective advocate for Obama, who he endorsed, in the Hispanic communities of the West and Southwest.  Terrific balance of youth and experience (been in the House since 1993). Much like Obama, represents the changing face of the Democratic Party, and a leading indicator of the future rather than a lagging indicator of the past, and at 58, would be well suited as the party standard bearer in 2016.  

getting to the point (4.00 / 1)
Is Chris arguing against someone as VP who has not endorsed or is he speculating that this wouldn't happen? If it is the latter, that strikes me as a reasonable speculation. If it is the former, then what he is saying doesn't make any sense. What exactly is wrong with Obama picking a non-endorser as a VP? I ask this from the perspective of a voter-as a voter, why should I care? I can speculate why Obama may care. But why should I?

Also, Chris, I'm fairly certain, is mistaken-Webb hasn't endorsed anyone either.

As usual, Chris's posts are not characterized by brevity. The basic argument is correct and can be stated succinctly--Obama should pick someone who improves his electoral changes by "complimenting" his strengths and not by "balancing" his perceived weaknesses. And it shouldn't be someone who would case discord within the party, i.e., an anti-choice candidate like Strickland.

I find speculation about Obama's VP fun. But apart from hoping he picks someone competent who helps him win and who wouldn't' be a total disaster if he/she ascended to the Presidency, I can't say that it really matters much. No doubt the Obama campaign wants to pick someone that helps them win too. But what Chris says makes sense-the way to win is by finding a "bird of a feather," much like Clinton did with Gore in 1992.


Why statewide? (0.00 / 0)
Why does someone have to be elected statewide before they become a viable VP candidate? Sure, it's a larger electorate, but it's not necessarily relevant to how they'll do in the job.

Meanwhile, by having this criterion you cut out some of the best progressives we have in elected office.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


Well (0.00 / 0)
It does show that they can run a large, (typically) tough campaign and have faced the increased scrutiny that comes along with it. It also (typically) shows that they've been able to appeal to broad demographics.  

[ Parent ]
Who in the House? (0.00 / 0)
It's a serious question; I don't know the House that well.

Is there anyone in the House who could be a realistic VP?

By the way, didn't Byron Dorgan vote against the war?  He's a rockstar on trade, immigration, a total prairie populist without selling out on any social issues either.  And he's a pretty good speaker and decent looking too.

Unfortunately, research reveals it was Kent Conrad who voted against the war, and Dorgan who voted for it.  That totally sucks.


[ Parent ]
Amy Klobuchar (4.00 / 1)
How about Amy Klobuchar?

She's in her first term as a U.S. Senator from Minnesota.


gov is a republican (0.00 / 0)
we'd give up her senate seat.

[ Parent ]
Sebelius is both reinforcing and balancing (4.00 / 7)
Sebelius also reinforces Obama's biography (single mom from Kansas, raised in part by his grandparents) in a way that helps shape the narrative of the race that provides natural cover to the UggaBugga! school of GOP negative campaigning.

And there is this, from the Topeka Capital-Journal, 3/6/03:

"Gov. Kathleen Sebelius said Thursday that she was among those who answered a plea from Pope John Paul II, who asked the world's 1 billion Catholics to join him in fasting and praying for peace.

The pope, a staunch opponent of war in Iraq, on Ash Wednesday urged everyone to "assume their responsibilities and make common efforts to spare humanity another dramatic conflict."

Sebelius, who is Catholic, said she obliged.

"I did some fasting, and I always pray for peace," Sebelius said at the end of her weekly news conference when she was asked about the pope's words.

"Wars are incredibly difficult situations. I trust the president will use his power and intelligence as commander-in-chief to make the most careful decision," she said. "Anytime we put people in harm's way, I worry about it. I just pray that people are safe and that if we do engage in combat, it's brief and we get Americans home safe and sound."

http://www.cjonline.com/storie...

I'm a big advocate of Gov. Sebelius for VP.  

John McCain


I could not agree more. n/t (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
elimanated Clark why? (4.00 / 4)
Why is Clark listed as someone who didn't oppose the war from the get go?
I recall Clark was quite vocal in opposing going into Iraq.  I think Kennedy mentioned Clark's testimony to Congress as a key reason he voted against the AUMF.

What has John McCain done for veterans?

FYI (4.00 / 8)
Just for your information, Wes Clark opposed the resolution giving Bush authority to invade Iraq.  He wrote an op/ed in the Post to that effect in the fall of 2002, and he testified before Biden's Foreign Relations Committee in opposition to the resolution.  This came up again last week when Clark was asked whether he participated in the meetings of Military Analyists at the Pentagon, and he answered yes, one meeting, then he published his op/ed, and was never invited back.  

Clark is not my preferred candidate for VP, but I would be delighted to support him.  I assume once HRC concludes her Quest, he will move over and support Obama.  There are many positions in a prospective administration where he would be a good fit -- his talent is really reorganization of failed or failing structures, and good lord we know we have enough of those to deal with in 2009.  

I actually believe there is quite another way to look at the VP choice, it is a question like this...who can both bring something to the ticket in electorial terms, but also can function well as the junior member of the Executive Team, taking responsibility for specific components of realizing the overall vision Obama wishes to accomplish in a four year span?  

In order to answer that question, and internal to the Obama campaign, that vision needs to be broken down and expressed in Functional terms.  We've had two quite successful Vice Presidencies in this mold, first Mondale's during the Carter Administration, and then Gore's in the Clinton terms.  Mondale brought to Carter his working knowledge of the Hill.  He dealt with the needs and requirements of congress -- and with Carter's needs for support on specific issues.  In contrast, Gore did projects -- he chaired several commissions, worked out comprehensive proposals that had difficult details requiring negotiation, and gradually moved to international diplomatic projects -- such as the Kyoto Conference (which Clinton didn't send to the Hill) and the relationship with Russia during Bosnia and Kosovo.  I think Obama -- and the rest of us need to think about how these Vice Presidencies functioned, and then look at the available talent in terms of how Obama wants to organize his Presidential Office.  

If I understand Obama properly -- I think he will want to spend considerable time "leading" his organization, meaning he will not so much "campaign" but indeed he will travel and use events to lead activists to take up large projects.  His message is that people can push change if they are engaged (yes we can) -- and to pull this off, he will have to be quite a visable leader, pointing to both goals and means.  This can come in many forms -- but it is a kind of leadership not easily passed over to a VP or others.  Obama I think, sees himself as the person to bring to the table all relevant stakeholders and interests, and let the conversation flow till it moves toward solutions.  He can't really isolate himself from this process if indeed it is his construct for a Presidency.  In many ways the proper match for this sort of leadership style is a VP who is a detail person -- someone who can figure out how to get things done in pragmatic terms.  

I suspect Obama is going to have significant difficulty with this model, precisely because in all too many ways, the Presidency is also where all the crises land, and require quick response.  It can be international, it can be a flood, earthquake or tornado -- but reaction and response ultimately is the President's.  Perhaps it needs to be deliberative, but in public terms, it needs to be immediate action oriented.  I suspect Obama is going to need VP back-up planning and executing facilitation.  

Another matter: I expect the coming election will deliver big majorities in the House and Senate with considerable interest on the part of Congress to really make a reform record.  The window in which bold things can be accomplished may indeed be rather short -- one 2 year congress such as LBJ had between 65 and 67, or the First Term as FDR had between 33 and 37.  There is, after all, a huge public interest in a major change in direction.  Management of this opportunity, getting as much out of the window as possible, (what with 535 members on the hill who all want their names attached to at least one of the reforms) will be a considerable task.  Stageing and coordinating this will be huge.  How this is organized from the White House will have a good deal to do with whether Obama's administration is successful.  Who should be VP ought to be factored into this huge task.  


Clark (4.00 / 3)
"[Clark] seems to be preoccupied, and I'm quoting now, with building legitimacy, with exhausting all diplomatic remedies...  So I think General Clark simply doesn't want to see us use military force and he has thrown out as many reasons as he can develop to that but the bottom line is he just doesn't want to take action. He wants to wait."

Richard Perle, Iraq war-mongerer, before congress Sept. 26, 2002

I put Clark first and either Sebelius or Richardson second.  Clark would have to be vetted for any remarks he made about Obama while supporting Hillary, but I think he would be a reinforcing choice:

1) Against war from the beginning
2) The other, other internet driven candidate
3) A perceived Washington outsider


[ Parent ]
Clark and hte AUMF (4.00 / 1)
Then I guess he was in favor of the AUMF before he was against it, because while he was cmapaigning for someone in NEw Hampshire back in October 2002, he said he was in favor of it.

I can't find the link off hand which would take quite a bit of googling, but he was in favor of the AUMF in October of 2002.  


[ Parent ]
Where to look (0.00 / 0)
One of the longer quotes in Paul Wellstone's speech on the Senate Floor in opposition to the Iraq Resolution was taken from Clark's testimony before Biden's Foreign Relations Committee Hearing.  You can find the speech at the Wellstone Action page -- last major speech before the tragedy.  

You can read his testimony before the Foreign Relations Committee from October 2002, and you can look up his op/ed in the Washington Post from before the Senate Debate.  

Clark is a quite sophisticated thinker on the question of how you combine diplomatic assets with military strategy -- one of his Master's thesis at the National Defense University is a close reading of the Pentagon Papers, looking at all the errors made in policy development vis a vis SE Asia 1945-69, leading him to a comprehension of how the failure to develop quality diplomatic strategy in parallel with any consideration of military strategy, ultimately leads into very unwise military commitments that are most difficult to disengage from once they fail to achieve goals.  The way I read his objection to the invasion of Iraq is in this light -- he saw virtually no diplomatic strategy existant at the time the Senate was being asked to vote.  (and boy was he right).  He was convinced it would lead to disaster.  He also knew that the job was not done in Afghanistan, and knew the Army at least, did not have resources to properly accomplish what was proposed in Iraq, and what was necessary in Afghanistan.  Clark has a very deep appreciation of the importance of logistics in any military venture, in that respect he is a piece off the rock of General George Marshall, and he told the Senate that in very clear terms.  


[ Parent ]
Clark has waffled on this (4.00 / 5)
Here it is:

Wednesday, October 9, 2002 Retired Gen. Clark supports Swett, raises concerns about Iraq policy  By STEPHEN FROTHINGHAM

Associated Press Writer

MANCHESTER, N.H. (AP) - Retired U.S. Army Gen. Wesley Clark said Wednesday he supports a congressional resolution that would give President Bush authority to use military force against Iraq, although he has reservations about the country's move toward war.

Clark, who led the allied NATO forces in the Kosovo conflict, endorsed Democrat Katrina Swett in the 2nd District race.

He said if she were in Congress this week, he would advise her to vote for the resolution, but only after vigorous debate. The resolution is expected to pass the House overwhelmingly. Swett has said she supports it, as does her opponent, incumbent U.S. Rep. Charles Bass.

The general said he had no doubt Iraq posed a threat, but questioned whether it was immediate and said the debate about a response has been conducted backward.

"Normally in a debate, you start with a problem and consider possible solutions. Instead, the president has presented us with a solution before the problem has been fully articulated," he said.

"As far as the information we have now shows, there are no nuclear warheads on missiles pointed to America," he said. "You can't wait 10 years to act, but there is time on our side."
He said al-Qaida remains the largest terrorist threat against the United States, and the connection between al-Qaida and Iraq is unclear.

Clark met Swett in Europe while her husband, former U.S. Rep. Dick Swett, was serving as ambassador to Denmark. Clark came to New Hampshire as a guest of another Clinton-era ambassador, George Bruno, a Democratic activist and former ambassador to Belize.

He said he shares the concerns he hears from many Americans about whether the country should act against Iraq without United Nations support and about how the United States will deal with Iraq after a successful invasion.

Two days before the vote, Clark said he would have voted yes. Hard to imagine any evidence that could countermand this.  


[ Parent ]
Klobuchar (4.00 / 2)
Amy Klobuchar is a name I haven't heard much of, but the first term senator from MN is on a strong upward trajectory. She is an incredible campaigner. And she's smart as hell.

She's got the common touch without being pandering. She appeals to all sorts: suburbanites, rural folks, city folks.

She totally fits the change metaphor. And she is TOUGH. She won MN by 20 points in what was supposed to be a close race.


Amy is great (4.00 / 3)
and has a bright future ahead of her but not VP this year. She is already growing in her national profile (one of the top people at the DSCC and headlined the SC JJ dinner) and is becoming a popular surrogate for Barack but I can see her more as a VP in 2016. She is still in her 40's. She has time.

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power

[ Parent ]
Keep her in the Senate! (4.00 / 3)
I like Amy Klobuchar - and I like her as my Senator, the Senior Senator - IF we can get rid of Coleman.

Please, our Senate representation has been quite unstable ever since Wellstone died - Klobuchar is a remedy for that instability, don't take her away, now.


"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


[ Parent ]
She won MN by 20 points in what was supposed to be a close race. (4.00 / 1)
Yes and so therefore it would be a shame to have her replaced with a republican (remember Tim Pawlenty?)

[ Parent ]
Aren't rule of law issues important? (0.00 / 0)
Can we agree that we would not want a VP who voted for the Military Commissions Act, one of the key steps in dismantling the rule of law?

This would exclude Sherrod Brown, among others.


Also (0.00 / 0)
it would exclude Webb who voted for FISA.

I agree.

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


[ Parent ]
I was mighty pissed about that vote (0.00 / 0)
But it was a few days before the November election, if I remember correctly... I'm going to go ahead and say that it was a stupid pander.

Obviously, that's not exactly a point in his favor, but he's been good on a host of other issues, including FISA. We'd all like to exclude people who aren't perfect on this issue or that issue, but I think yours makes for an awfully restrictive litmus test. For someone who has been in the legislature and been forced to take a position on almost every issue of national importance,  I think he has a very impressive record.

I support John McCain because children are too healthy anyway.


[ Parent ]
"A stupid pander" (0.00 / 0)
But it was a few days before the November election, if I remember correctly... I'm going to go ahead and say that it was a stupid pander.

Without weighing in on the quality of this specific particular vote, I do want to point out: It seems to me that  one of the heaviest "reinforcing themes" that the Obama campaign needs to have strength on is that politicians shouldn't be committing stupid panders.

You could just as well use the "stupid pander" reasoning to brush off previous support for the Iraq War, or the Gas Tax. At that point you might as well put Richardson or Clinton back on the table...


[ Parent ]
Sure, pandering is bad (0.00 / 0)
But at the same time, there is no candidate who is totally pure. Certainly not one from a conservative State. Ted Kennedy isn't a viable choice for a reason. The thing to look for is someone who is actually committed as an individual to progressive change, and I believe Brown is, even if he occasionally (and it really is very rare) votes badly.

If there is going to be a "line in the sand" though, I think Chris is right that it should be the war in Iraq, not FISA, the Military Commissions Act or any other terrible piece of legislation. Because 1) The war will be a major issue in the fall 2) Of all the terrible things that the Bush administration has done, the war is the worst 3) having a VP who voted for it undermines Obama's best arguments about judgment. None of that is really true of the Military Commissions Act.

While I think the it is a truly odious and unconstitutional (or at least anti-constitutional) piece of legislation, it doesn't compare to the war.

I support John McCain because children are too healthy anyway.


[ Parent ]
"Can we agree?" (0.00 / 0)
No I do not agree to that.

[ Parent ]
Sebelius for VP (4.00 / 7)
Glad you have come around and I think no matter what plays out she is the best choice.

I would think Brown would be eliminated by the same standard as Feingold. The only place I have heard him mentioned is on OpenLeft to be honest and to put himself in serious consideration he would have had to endorse and campaign hard for Obama before Ohio to get himself some spotlight. Another thing that must be taken in consideration is weather or not the VP choice risks losing a Democratic power. Schweitzer is up for re-election and there is not a particularly large bench of Democrats in Montana so I think that eliminates him.

Also I don't see Murray as a strong choice at all. Her 16 years in Washington and generally insider roles with the DSCC and the Appropriations Committee would undercut Obama's message of change.

Sebelius isn't a perfect choice. I wish she was a better communicator and about 10 years younger but we can't change that and of the remaining candidates she is by far the strongest. But insiders will likely push hard for someone else. Clark, Biden and Richardson are the most likely. Richardson is the most acceptable of the three but I feel Sebelius is the strongest choice and the sooner we start pushing her the more likely a choice she will be.

Chris, you have a microphone. Start a Sebelius for VP movement. I will do anything I can to help. It will get support and this is area were we have a real chance to make a difference.

Obama/Sebelius 08

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


Count me in too! (4.00 / 3)
Also, it would be great if someone with some knowledge of her could write a diary about her.  A diary making the case for her on here or DKos.

[ Parent ]
I'm working on it (4.00 / 2)
I'll make sure to post it here and on DailyKos.

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power

[ Parent ]
Make sure you have a counter argument (4.00 / 4)
to the people who are completely ruling her out because "she sucked in her SOTU response".

If we had to find a pol who's never given a lame speech then we're out of luck I think.


[ Parent ]
Seems like that would be pretty easy to refute (0.00 / 0)
Just find video of her giving a good speech, and slap it on Youtube. Any idea what that might be?

It seems like a SOTU response in specific being unimpressive shouldn't be bad by itself-- when was the last time you saw an SOTU response that impressed you, or which you even remembered afterward? Ever? I seem to remember people kinda liked the one Jim Webb gave, but that seemed to be the exception rather than the rule. I expect the reason people are fixating on the SOTU response was that they want to know whether Sebelius has the ability to inspire in public and the SOTU response is the only opportunity most people have had to judge her on that count.  


[ Parent ]
Or don't worry about it as the contrast emphasizes (0.00 / 0)
his strength -- motivational speaking. So what if Sebelius ain't good at public speaking -- that's what we've got Obama for. So what's her strength -- effective governance. Does her effectiveness at governance make his 'inexperience' stand out? Maybe, maybe not but I'd guess it might offset it since she would have a hand in governance.

On this particular issue, the contrast works.


[ Parent ]
Part of what was so great about Webb .. (0.00 / 0)
is that the SOTU responses always sucked ... always!! .. and he comes along and knocks it out of the park ... talking smack to the Decider helped of course ... didn't he just have a child within the past year or so?

[ Parent ]
Obama/Sebelius (4.00 / 4)
I agree: Obama/Sebelius. In addition to the above, there is in her favor the simple fact of her gender. The rift that most threatens the party is along gender lines. I don't think it would be pandering at all to give preference to a woman in this climate. Besides, as a someone with strong administrative experience, Sebelius not only reinforces but provides balance. She is not a one or the other choice. In addition, her not being a sparkling speaker is not against her. In this campaign, it could even be a plus ... in that she makes sense. She does not inspire with high oratory but with solid reasoning. To be honest, I got on the Sebelius bandwagon some time ago. I live in Missouri, right across the river, and she has been, it seems to me, a steady voice of reason. I think that she would not make a big splash at first based on name recongnition, but she would make a huge splash as a woman. And I think that the country will warm to her as the campaign goes on. She is competent, a quality sorely lacking these last seven odd years. Further, do not underestimate the possibilities of a major electoral realignment with a woman who is bright, capable, and principled in a low-key way. Obviously, I am quite high on Sebelius, and I think her upside FAR surpasses those of any other choice.  

[ Parent ]
Also (0.00 / 0)
Her not as inspiring speaking style could draw attention to just how damn good a speaker Obama is.

And it's not like McCain is much of a speaker.

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


[ Parent ]
Eric Reed Boucher (4.00 / 1)
;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J...



"It sounds wrong...
     ...but its right."


the VP field (0.00 / 0)
In general, I wish I felt better about the range of choices Obama has to pick from.

While I think the Iraq vote is an important indicator when it comes to Obama and the rationale for his campaign, a strict adherence to it nonetheless would exclude a lot of potentially good candidates.

Traditionally the VP pick is a "do no harm" decision. The pick isn't likely to help electorally, but could end up doing harm if the VP bumbles a debate or makes an ill-timed misque on the campaign trail, etc.


"bumbles" "miscues" (4.00 / 1)
That's why Richardson is an iffy choice.

[ Parent ]
Sebelius is good on the stump (4.00 / 3)
Gov. Sebelius addressed the '07 DNC cattle call in DC.  The participants included every announced candidate plus Gov. Sebelius and Gen. Clark.

Gov. Sebelius did a great job.  Aside from the Big Three, she and Richardson seemed to get the steadiest, loudest applause.  Granted, she was addressing the choir.  But the arguments that her somewhat tepid response to the SOTU mean that she is an ineffective communicator are tempests in teapots.

Also, and this is interesting, but I think Gov. Sebelius not only helps down-ticket races but improves chances of winning the Electoral College in states near KS (AR, IA, MO).  I see that isn't your point, Chris, but I think this "default" logic might lead to windfalls in those states.


Sebeliubots unite! n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
You're missing something (4.00 / 3)
I agree with you that we shouldn't have a VP nominee who supported the war.  But the war is just one of the many things that are bad about President Bush, right?  So it stands to reason that we shouldn't hve a VP nominee who supported Bush, right?

Well, there's only one person on this list who's ever voted for Bush, and that's Jim Webb.  He not only voted for Bush in 2000, he publicly endorsed him.

If we're going to reject deathbed conversions on the war -- and I think we should -- we most certainly should reject them on President Bush, of all people.  Our VP nominee should not be someone who has ever voted for President Bush.  That leaves Jim Webb right out.

ProgressiveHistorians: History For Our Future


Jim Webb voted for Bush in 2000, and John McCain didn't. (4.00 / 1)
How's that for contrast?

Although it is a perfect inoculation, in the event Webb were chosen.  One exchange between TV surrogates and no Republican would ever bring up that subject ever again.


[ Parent ]
Ying and Yang (0.00 / 0)
Whatever the immediate political calculation that occurs among the candidate and his staff, good VP picks invariably provide a combination of accentuating the positive of candidates and compensating for electoral weaknesses, IMHO.

Clinton's choice of Gore, for example, accentuated Clinton's strength, from an electability perspective, as a new Democrat from the South, while at the same time addressing Clinton's electoral weakness as an outsider (right or wrong, this sort of thing matters to the Village regulars). Carter's choice of Mondale reflected a similar sensibility -- the well known, stoic Minnesota Senator was the perfect counterpoint to the unknown "hick" from Georgia.

It's true on the GOP side as well. Chris can argue that Cheney simply magnified Bush's inexperience and idiocy, but that is not true. He compensated completely for that electoral weakness on Bush's part. The fact that Bush still seems like he is in over his head is accounted for not by the comparison between him and Cheney, but by the fact that he is, indeed, even now in over his head.

Reagan/Bush worked as an electoral combo in part because while Reagan came across as an ideologue, Bush came across as the practical government man. He was clearly compensatory in this regard. But in inarticulateness accentuated Reagan's telegenic and oratorical qualities (although they never did much for me).

But when all VP picks do is try to compensate for weaknesses -- Lloyd Bentsen comes to mind -- I don't know whether Chris' reasoning is right, but it hardly ever works.

In evaluating VP picks, it seems to me the answer is not whether they compensate for some real or perceived electoral deficiency in Obama -- they ought to do that -- but whether they also do something on the other side of the ledger as well and enhance his positive aspects.

I don't know too much about Sebelius, but Webb does fit these characteristics.


While I agree about how getting a FP heavyweight just showcases Obama's non-heavyweight status... (0.00 / 0)
I think that getting someone with even less Washington and FP experience is a bad choice. There are plenty of people with enough to pull their weight in that department that aren't going to make Obama look like a kid. I think Ted Strickland is an obviously good choice for that, or even Dodd, who cut his teeth more in finance than in foreign affairs. That said, he brings nothing to the table geographically. Strickland obviously does.

McCaskill and the War? (4.00 / 1)
McCaskill wasn't in the Senate to vote on the Iraq War. Did she make an opinion known about the War at some point?

Same question about Napolitano, who is not in Congress at all.


I Don't Entirely Agree (0.00 / 0)
I agree that choosing someone to shore up a perceived weakness can be a negative from a media narrative standpoint, and that's why Obama should stay a hundred miles away from folks like Webb and Clark.

However, I disagree that a candidate can't pick up additional benefits from choosing a running mate who brings something extra. In Sebelius' case, it would be an appeal to women voters, particularly Clinton's voters.

In Sherrod Brown's case, his selection would send a very clear message to union leaders and rank-and-file alike that Obama is staunchly pro-union. That's a good thing, and I would almost encourage Obama to go a step further and start openly talking about some of his potential cabinet selections and create an echo chamber on this issue. Let it be know you're going to put someone like John Edwards into the AG job. Let it be known you'll tap a guy like Dick Gephardt for Secretary of Labor. Make it a part of your economic strategy to tell folks that a strong economy and good wages start, in part, with a healthy labor movement. Go after the Wal-Mart economy. This isn't like the national security issue. It doesn't feed into McCain's narrative. No union man is operating under the dillusion that McCain is pro-labor. If they cross over it'll be for cultural issues or because McCain somehow managed to scare people about national security.

I also think that the running mate choice can have some positive benefit in their own home state, if for no other reason than that candidate presumably has campaign infrastructure in place and loyalists on the ground who have already busted their humps to get that candidate elected before. If Obama picks Sherrod Brown, are these loyalists somehow going to be less motivated? Less fired up? Is the average independent Buckeye State voter, who helped Brown to a landslide two years ago, going to wrinkle their nose and say, "I'm not voting for Obama, he picked Brown?" Or are they going to say, "Clearly Obama thinks Ohio is important. How dare he choose a native to try to appeal for my vote?" Nah.

And if someone like Brown in Ohio or McCaskill in Missouri only adds 1 or 2% to Obama's vote margin (which is about what I think they'd give to Obama, roughly 1-2%), in a close election that still could be the difference between winning or losing. And, considering we've lost the last two presidentials by paper thin margins, I'll take that extra 1-2% in a key state if I can get it.

I also think you need to come to grips with the fact, Chris, that there is only one Obama. You're not going to find another qualified Obama clone hiding under the bleachers at the convention. It's not like Bill Clinton, who could choose Al Gore out of a list of any number of qualified, young, Southern, white guys. Whoever Obama picks is going to be somewhat of a contrast. And that's fine, so long as appropriate care is taken to consider what the media narrative will be and that media narrative cannot reinforce McCain's (which is going to be focused on national security and experience, so don't pick a general or foreign policy figure or a Washington gray beard). I think as long as he picks someone whose appeal will be kitchen table economic issues who is young and fresh on the national scene, his selection will work well for him. And if he can send some dogwhistles out to union leaders and households and fire up some loyalists in a swing state in the process, all the better.


I pretty much agree with your point (4.00 / 1)
but not with your cabinet picks.

Dick Gephardt?!? He was great a few years ago but since then he has turned into a mega corporate lobbyist. He shouldn't get anywhere close to any future White House. On the other hand super pro-labor former congressman, Edwards campaign manager and American Rights at Work chairman David Bonior would be a fantastic pick and since he endorsed Obama fairly early I think he would be under strong consideration.

Also John Edwards would be a good pick on antitrust issues and stuff like that but that is only a small part of the DOJ and on the issues Edwards is not only not very qualified he also doesn't really have much of a interest. He would be a better fit as a poverty czar which is the issue he cares about.  

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power


[ Parent ]
Re; Gephardt (0.00 / 0)
Whether he's been a lobbyist since retiring from Congress or not, Gephardt is still one of the most popular pro-labor political figures of our time. In particular, old labor loves Gephardt the way 99% of the population loves puppies and kittens.

If John Edwards wants his political career to continue beyond 2012 or 2016 when he leaves an Obama administration, which I suspect he does, AG is the perfect launching pad for him to stay in the game. And, remember, the rumors are that some labor leaders have told both Obama and Clinton that they want Edwards to be AG, period.


[ Parent ]
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