The Popular Vote Is A Moral Argument

by: Chris Bowers

Wed May 14, 2008 at 20:30


Clinton's enormous victory in West Virginia last night will invariably bring arguments over the "popular vote" in the Democratic nomination campaign back into the discussion. Even before West Virginia, which Clinton won by around 137,500 votes, the Clinton campaign was arguing that it was "in striking distance" of the popular vote lead. In fact, according to counts that do not (fixed) include participants in the delegate selection events in Iowa, Maine, Nevada and Washington, but do include the non-delegate selection events in Florida and Michigan, and also do not include the preferences of the "uncommitted" participants in Michigan, the Clinton campaign is indeed ahead. And so, right on cue, the Clinton campaign is now claiming they lead in the popular vote.

The problem with this popular vote total is that it is a moral argument about the will of the participants in the Democratic nomination campaign, not a legal argument over the definition of the winner of the nomination campaign. Legally, the Democratic nominee is determined by delegates, not by popular vote totals. For a moral argument about the popular vote--a.k.a. the will of the nomination campaign electorate--to carry weight, it needs to be as inclusive as possible in its vote totals. Instead, this vote total pretends that the over 550,000 caucus goers in Washington, Nevada, Maine and Iowa, not to mention the quarter of a million uncommitted voters in Michigan, didn't actually have candidate preferences in the nomination campaign just because those candidate preferences weren't recorded. Excluding those 800,000 participants in the nomination campaign from a popular vote toal, especially when exit polls and turnout numbers make close estimates on those preferences quite simple, renders that popular total pointless. Since popular vote totals are statements of moral value, mass exclusions of this sort drains any popular total of all its moral force.

The popular vote total in the nomination campaign is a moral argument about fairness, intra-party democracy, and legitimacy. It isn't even a moral argument that many people accept, given, among other issues, the variances in voter eligibility from state to state, the various "legitimacy" of the nomination events used in the totals, and the staggered primary calendar itself. Still, as an argument over moral legitimacy to the Democratic presidential nomination, it should not be used lightly and arbitrarily. Certainly, it should not exclude hundreds of thousands of people who tried to participate in the nomination campaign by means  of the only event offered to them. When all of the people who attempted to participate in their state's only delegate selection event (or their state's only potential delegate selection event, as is the case in Florida and Michigan) are included, Barack Obama still leads by just under 260,000 votes even after Clinton's 137,500 vote victory in West Virginia. Barring some pretty shocking results in the remaining five contests, Obama will still hold that lead after all the voting is complete on June 3rd.

Of all the remaining arguments the Clinton campaign will probably make over the next three or four weeks, the popular vote argument will disgust me the most. They will claim the moral high ground by supposedly having the most support from participants in the nomination campaign, when in reality such a claim can only be made by ignoring the 800,000 participants in the nomination campaign whose candidate preferences were not recorded (but whose preferences can be closely estimated). Making a moral argument that involves shutting voters out of the process is very disturbing, and gives me bad memories of the Florida recount. Remember, if there was a review of all statewide ballots in Florida, Gore would have won according to any vote counting standard. Excluding voters from popular vote counts, and then claiming legitimacy based on fraudulent counts, does not have a positive track record in America.  

Chris Bowers :: The Popular Vote Is A Moral Argument

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It's an immoral argument (0.00 / 0)
as they discount the will of the voters in the caucus states and MI to arrive at their number. The supers are certainly aware of the rules of the game and unless she's trying to destroy the party she'll drop this immoral argument asap.  

Viability (0.00 / 0)
Another strike against the popular vote argument is that in caucus states, as opposed to primary states, enough other people have to show up and vote like you in order for your vote to count.

don't think I follow (0.00 / 0)
Since that's true of Clinton too.  Unless you could demonstrate significant disparities in caucus sites where either clinton or obama failed to achieve viability, I doubt this would impact much.

It really just serves to kill off dark horse candidates, forcing their supporters to back one of the top dogs, I suppose in the hope that someone gets >50%.


[ Parent ]
Not math (4.00 / 1)
I'm not making a mathematical argument, but a moral one. It makes no moral sense to appeal to popular vote when the caucus system may or may not count your vote depending on how other people who live near you are voting.

[ Parent ]
I think you left out the word "not" (0.00 / 0)
in: "In fact, according to counts that do (not?) include participants in the delegate selection events in Iowa, Maine, Nevada and Washington, but do include the non-delegate selection events in Florida and Michigan, and also do not include the preferences of the "uncommitted" participants in Michigan, the Clinton campaign is indeed ahead."

Yup, might be good to correct that (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
What's so crazy (0.00 / 0)
is that it's just overtly political.  If Washington and Maine and everywhere else with unrecorded totals had been Clinton states, and would have potentially added to her popular vote total, they would have been searching for every credible way of determining exactly how many net votes they could extract from those states.  Any claim by a campaign that is so overtly self-interested, a campaign that had no problem encouraging voter suppression in Iowa, cannot and hopefully will not be taken seriously.

Thank you (0.00 / 0)
Thank you for clarifying what your entry of the other day had left unclear.

In other news, I don't think HRC plans to win based on that argument. She plans to use it to make her and her followers feel better in the next few months/years. Like them or not, one thing they do well is victimization and the idea that they lost even though 'they won more votes" will be what they need to rationalize their defeat away and hang on to their followers (I dont mean the word in a bad way but you know the type).


In Reality (0.00 / 0)
this is NOT a moral argument because Chris is dealing with some estimates which are subject to scrutiny themselves. A moral argument has to be based on facts - not estimates.

To use the term 'moral' makes for poetic impact but it is not correct.

At best the popular vote is a 'subjective' argument subject to interpretation and of course argument.


[ Parent ]
Is it moral to ask for a rules change mid-contest? (4.00 / 1)
If the agreed upon rules call for a contest to acquire delegates then you apportion your resources and your candidate time accordingly.  You spend time and money in caucus states even though participation will be low due the the time commitment involved in caucusing.

On the other hand, if you know popular vote is the metric then you will spend more time and money in the populous primary states. And you'll run up the vote total in places like Illinois even though the extra delegate or two you might earn is costly.

You can't change the yardsticks when you're a few inches behind. Simple really.


It's Not Changing The Rules (0.00 / 0)
Clinton isn't saying ignore the delegates. What the argument is, is an argument to the Super Delegates and the pledged delegates all who can vote as they wish at the convention.

Clinton is dovetailing the popular vote argument, with the big states argument, with the swing states argument, with the important constituencies argument, with the electoral map argument, with the experience argument, with the better chance to win argument, etc

None of those change the rules - they simply appeal to the delegates - all of who can vote as they wish at the convention.

And because of all those arguments, all of which make sense, her opponents are desperately trying to make here quit.


[ Parent ]
they are not rules, they are yardsticks for judgements (0.00 / 0)
It is perfectly reasonable and expected that those can change and have shanged over time.  Just as any individual has a yardstick to make judgements,,,they may decide over time to change them.  

HILLARY CAN WIN POPULAR VOTE EVEN WITH ESTIMATED CAUCUS NUMBER ADDED.

This is Jay Cost's vote estimator with every vote tallying scenario imaginable.

Look at the scenarios at the bottom and you will see the caucus estimates included, with the Washington primary counted where 700,000 people voted insted of 200,000 in th eestimated caucus....you will that Obama's popular vote margin is negative.  It is actually higher siince she got a 147,500 vote margin in WV, not 137 or 123.

It is more than fair and she can win even with using the caucus estimates... No reason to get nauseous


"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
soory link (0.00 / 0)
Jay Cost

http://www.realclearpolitics.c...

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Legally? (4.00 / 2)
I'm not an expert, but my impression of the couple of court rulings was that the voters and candidates have no legal rights at all.  The entire primary system is nothing more than a big club, with some informal rules set up at the whim of the DNC.  The DNC could decide that Gore, or Chris Bowers, is the nominee.

If today the RNC wanted to run with Huckabee instead of McCain, neither McCain nor his supporters could sue in court and claim a legal right to the nomination.

There aren't any legal rights here.  

If by legally, you mean the strict interpretation of the rules, then you are stuck with a system without legitimacy.  Without Florida and Michigan counted in a fairly contested contest, there is no legitimacy for either candidate.  So, your insistence on legalisms over fairness is disturbing.  That doesn't mean that there is an acceptable solution.  But people who insist on legalisms without consideration of justice don't belong on progressive blogs.  Nor do people who can't deal with the fact that there are two sides to every issue.

Neither candidate has much of a claim to "moral" legitimacy over the other.  Neither candidate has an enforceable right to anything.  Neither candidate has a "moral" right to a superdelegate crowning.  

Normally, progressive folks deal pretty well with ambiguity and conflicting rights.  The popular vote majority is razor thin, and fairly meaningless, and can be counted a number of different ways - and both campaigns will claim it, neither with much legitimacy.  I don't see how either camp is acting in a "disgusting" fashion by spinning the facts their way.

Perhaps you would thrive better in a more authoritarian, legalistic political environment.  


You missed a prefix (0.00 / 0)
> Without Florida and Michigan counted in a fairly
> contested contest, there is no legitimacy for
> either candidate.  

You missed a prefix:  "in my personal opinion".  Plenty of FL and MI people have posted here and elsewhere stating the opposite, and just about every year before this one the media and Democratic Party leadership have driven all but one candidate out of the race before I got a chance to vote - yet those contests were deemed "legitimate".

sPh


[ Parent ]
Fair enough (4.00 / 1)
My larger point is that, without legal rights, there are ONLY moral arguments.  John McCain has a moral argument, just a stronger one that Clinton.

And, yes, IMO, the Fl and MI debacle is a legitimacy problem for both.  Some people agree with me; some disagree.  The whole process is full of ambiguity and opportunity for honest disagreement, which is why the legalistic argument seems so misplaced to me.


[ Parent ]
Credit To Bowers (0.00 / 0)
who in the beginning didn't think Fla or MI shouldn't count but he did change his tune on that thanks in part to some posters good arguments on this blog.

As for other Obama posters - get real! I have yet to read one who said FLA or MI should count. So any 'moral' arguments from them now on the popular vote go by the hypocrisy wayside. You can't argue for morality when for months you have been arguing against it.

As for the caucus system I still say that is the most undemocratic method we have in our party and it is not surprising that the states do not publish how many people didn't participate because it would be embarrassing.

I cannot endorse 'estimates' made up by Obama supporters with any faith. If the state does not publish official numbers then there are no numbers to count period. We can't have a system when any Joe Blow can just make up numbers.

The same hold true for a candidate who willingly does not compete in a state by not having his/her name on a ballot. No name on a ballot then how can you compete? No name - no delegates.


[ Parent ]
Interesting... (0.00 / 0)
You can't argue for morality when for months you have been arguing against it.

How about arguing for months that FL and MI shouldn't count, then arguing they should when you need them?

As for the caucus system I still say that is the most undemocratic method we have in our party

and
If the state does not publish official numbers then there are no numbers to count period.

so... caucus voters (such as myself in WA) should be unfairly discounted (or is that "disenfranchised?") because we are victims of our political leaders decisions (oh, say like those made by MI and FL politicos to move the primaries ahead of the party's schedule)?  Since the states' votes aren't posted they shouldn't be counted?  I assure you I voted (or caucused, anyway).

And finally...

The same hold true for a candidate who willingly does not compete in a state by not having his/her name on a ballot. No name on a ballot then how can you compete? No name - no delegates.

How about you don't follow the party rules- no delegates?  

Ironically, the candidates that took their names off the MI ballet were adhering to the rules and following the party's preference, while the one that left her name on was doing so for personal advantage (no, not because she anticipated needing the delegates for the primary, but that she wanted to curry favor in the state for her inevitable General Election run... oops).

So now she is trying to make a technical argument for their inclusion for her own benefit.


[ Parent ]
How about (4.00 / 1)
she never argued against Fla and her single statement on Michigan was way before the primary. People inflate the entire thing for talking point but the fact don't support their rhetoric.

As for Caucuses you are not unfairly discounted or disenfranchised if you were lucky enough to have the time in the narrow window of time to participate. Who was unfairly discounted or disenfranchised were those he didn't have the time, or were handicapped, or out of state with no option for an absentee ballot.

"How about you don't follow the party rules- no delegates? "

How about it wasn't the voters fault - they should not be penalized. And in the case of Florida it was not even the Dems fault because the Republican dominated legislature are the ones who set the slate for both parties. So should Dem voters suffer for what Republicans decided?

You have no real arguments.


[ Parent ]
Okay, you got me... (0.00 / 0)
It wasn't Clinton that said FL shouldn't count, it was just her campaign manger on her behalf:
http://www.nybooks.com/article...

See Patti Solis Doyle:

We believe Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina play a unique and special role in the nominating process.... We believe the DNC's rules and its calendar provide the necessary structure to respect and honor that role. Thus, we will be signing the pledge to adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar.

As to my being "disenfranchised" because I caucused, I meant that if the popular vote is counted without adding in the caucus states, then that measure is "disenfranchising" me since I did vote, but you're not counting it.

And my point is that voters and their votes are meaningless outside the rules in which the voting occurs.  The party sets the rules, the states follow them or not, but the votes (and more importantly the delegates) are counted within the rules.  

So... whether the state legislature made the decision (regardless of the party in control) is between the voters of the state and their representatives... this still is (perhaps unfortunately) a representative democracy (or Republic) rather than a true democracy... and hence votes are only counted within the rules they are cast in.


[ Parent ]
Well let me get you again (0.00 / 0)
because Doyle didn't say that Fla shouldn't count. She said they would adhere to the DNC approved nominating calendar. And they did. The DNC only said that the candidates not campaign in those two states. They did not say the candidates had to take their name off the ballot, nor could the DNC prevent those states from holding the primaries. So Clinton was well within the rules and the voters came out and she is honoring the voters by wanting them to count. Sure it benefits here - but Obama is not honoring the voters by wanting them to count because not counting them benefits him. So we have two candidates doing what benefits them. the only difference is one is honoring the voters and the other one is ignoring them. In keeping with Chris' theme of what is moral which of the two  candidates is doing the moral thing, the one honoring the voters or the one who is not?

As for disenfranchising I still stand by that if there is no official count then there is not count to count. Chris has made up his own estimate. Blogger 'B' made up his. The guy at the local newspaper made up his own, etc. Whose do you count when they are all made up? The answer is none of them because none of them are official. To count made up estimates is to open a can of worms that would never end. The only answer is to have the state provide an official count which should not be a problem because every person participating is there casting a vote.


[ Parent ]
Well I agree on some of your points (0.00 / 0)
So we have two candidates doing what benefits them

I totally agree here...

But disagree here:

the only difference is one is honoring the voters and the other one is ignoring them

I believe one is honoring the rules (which clearly benefit him) while the other is ignoring them (which would clearly benefit her- although how much isn't absolutely clear).

Your arguments about the uncertainty of caucus states votes are proper and I agree.  But that has been my point, the rules never intended for popular votes to be counted outside the context of determining delegates.  So they should not be considered under any format that doesn't consider delegates.

Therefore the whole argument regarding popular vote aggregates in any context are specious and merely positioning.

And that makes them neither moral or immoral.  Just arguments intended to benefit a particular position.


[ Parent ]
Why even do this? (4.00 / 1)
The popular vote thing is, as you note, a moral argument. But what I wonder about, above and beyond the problems with the argument itself which you outline-- Who is this moral argument being made to? There are only two possible answers as I see it:

1. The superdelegates.

2. The general populace.

(1) doesn't make any sense. The Clinton campaign has lost the superdelegate war; the momentum has turned there and even the Clinton campaign must soon realize it will not turn back. For the month of May Obama will do better on superdelegate acquisitions than he will in actual elections. On top of this, the turnaround required to spend months arguing that superdelegates should support whoever they want and not feel beholden to vote a certain way based on elections-- and then suddenly turn around and insist that superdelegates are morally obligated to vote a certain way based on a popular vote count-- is just too bafflingly pretzely, even for the Clinton campaign.

That leaves (2), and (2) is just weird. Let us imagine, for grins, that Clinton convinced the general public of her moral argument about the popular vote. What would she gain from it? General public sentiment doesn't effect the mechanics of this primary, except through the elections themselves, which are already effectively over (and will be actually over in six days). The effect would seem to be to attempt to convince the public Obama doesn't deserve to win, but doing so only after he's won, in a way that in no way stops him from actually winning. There is no apparent reason to push this moral argument unless the goal is to delegitimize the Obama campaign in the minds of general election voters.


Not a Moral Argument, (4.00 / 2)
but a technical one.

She is trying to find a metric, any metric, by which she can demonstrate viability or a leading indicator for the most important audience: the media.

By trying to convince the media a yard is longer than a meter because it has 3 feet in it- any "three" feet are clearly longer than only "one" meter- she is trying to find that technical argument, no matter how specious, to convince so she can continue.

The media is the audience as it is the key to continuing her tale, or terminating it (i.e. Russet's "It's over!").

And it's a false technical argument as the votes are meaningless in that their sole purpose is to determine delegates, period.  Once done, they are useless and are meaningless aggregated.

She is only trying to pose her argument as a moral one as a technical one is too easy to invalidate.


Agreed (0.00 / 0)
This argument assumes that every person that voted for her in the primaries would not vote for Obama in the general; that he votes she received were not only for the primaries, but for the general election as well.

[ Parent ]
Maybe knock some sense into Jerome Armstrong... (0.00 / 0)
Since he seems to have accepted the Clinton popular vote argument, which is really sad to me.

I also made this point the night of PA (4.00 / 1)
I had the random good fortune to be front-paged at Kos with it, and I obviously agree.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/...

Mine was an open letter to Obama surrogates requesting that they attack this fallacy:

In the spirit of stating your opponents' best argument for them up front, then dismantling it, lay it out this way:

When the Clintons and their surrogates deceptively argue for the popular vote, they appear at first glance to be making a simple, moral, populist argument, that all votes are equal.  Right?  That's the implication, and why it rolls off their tongues so easily.

But where is the inherent morality in open versus closed primaries that arbitrarily limit turnout and whether Republicans and independents get to pick the Democratic nominee in some states but not others?  

Are caucuses inherently immoral?  Many states chose them as their form of selecting a nominee.  

Is it moral to alter the game strategy only after the fact?  

Make the opposing Clinton surrogate make a moral case that Minnesota = 1/4 of Missouri, because their argument insists that it should.  Make them argue from a principle standpoint that Minnesota = 1/4 of Missouri.  Make them argue that.  Put them in that position.  It'll expose this whole can of worms.



estimates carry uncertainty (4.00 / 2)
I don't think there is a "popular vote", not in the sense that we normally mean that word.  Aside from dramatic variances in the methods, eligibility, and timing among the states, there's also the fact that a lot of these numbers are estimates with a much higher margin of error than real vote counts.

Michigan and Florida were elections in which candidates were barred from campaigning and voters were told they didn't count, so how can we take those numbers to presume to represent what would've happened in a free and fair election?  In particular, not campaigning means no field offices and no GOTV.  I volunteered at an Obama office in my neighborhood on Massachusetts primary day and I know I turned out a number of voters (several people I called hadn't even remembered it was primary day).  None of that happened in Michigan and Florida.  And estimating the Obama vote in Michigan based on exit poll results & uncommitted votes is even vaguer - and certainly doesn't count Obama voters who didn't vote because they knew he wouldn't be on the ballot.

What about primaries that didn't count, like Washington?  But if you count them, how do you know you're not double-counting some of the same voters who participated in the caucus?  Why double-count voters in some states and not others?  What does that even mean?  And yet if you don't risk double-counting, then you risk not counting people who voted in the caucus but not the primary.

Or what about Texas, one of the biggest states?  Either you double-count, or you discount a caucus that actually did count?

Not to mention that estimates of "popular vote" for caucus states aren't as accurate as actual vote counts.

Overall, given the uncertainties, the differences in definition of what votes are votes (and which voters get to be counted twice vs. once), and the different circumstances of the different states:

1. We really don't know who's ahead in the popular vote.  We can estimate that it's probably Obama but we don't know.

2. The "popular vote" is too fictitious to have any moral meaning whatsoever, unless it were so lopsided that we'd know beyond doubt that one candidate was far ahead.  But given the way the delegate system works, the only way one candidate could be significantly ahead in the "popular vote" but behind on delegates is if that candidate wins lots of caucus states (with lower turnout) but very few primary states (with higher turnout), which means it's not a moral argument about the "popular vote", but rather just another way of delegitimizing caucus states and saying that even though they count in proportion to their Democratic voter population as far as the rules go, they really shouldn't count that much.  If that's what we want, we ought to change the rules to penalize states for turnout by making their delegate totals vary proportional to turnout (which would penalize caucus states, obviously), but I don't think we'll see Clinton arguing for that.

This "popular vote" thing is stupid, and I'm sad to see so many of the blogs I respect joining in with the press in pretending that it's a meaningful number.


#1 (0.00 / 0)
And that is why posts like this are so important.  The general population does not read Open Left, but the general superdeligate probably does.  It is important for everyone to understand where these bogus numbers come from and what it all means.  Some may disagree, but this needs to be out there.

[ Parent ]
Opinions aren't set in stone (0.00 / 0)
You also have to account for the fact that plenty of people have changed their minds since they voted. What about those who voted for Edwards early, only for him to drop out? What about those who switched from Obama to Clinton (or vice versa)? There's certainly evidence that there has been movement between the two groups, so superdelegates would also have to ask themselves whether they should represent opinion as it was when it was recorded, or opinion as it now stands.

And in the end, there is no definitive answer.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog


[ Parent ]
Thanks, Hillary (0.00 / 0)
for saying that my vote in the WA caucus doesn't count, as opposed to the votes of voters in MI & FL, whose leadership broke the rules. And I didn't even have a latte that day.

What do your good friends Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell think about that?

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything...Mankind are forever destined to be the dupes of bold & cunning imposture" -- Alexander Hamilton


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