Obama Leaves Trinity Church

by: Matt Stoller

Sat May 31, 2008 at 20:46


Surprise surprise, mixing religion and politics does not always work out in the most awesome manner.

"We don't want to have to answer for everything that's stated in the church," the Democratic front-runner said. "We also don't want the church subjected to the scrutiny that a presidential campaign legitimately undergoes."

I saw the charismatic Cliff Schechter speak on Friday about his book, The Real John McCain, and he pointed out that McCain has actually changed his religion with limited notice from the media.  Having lived his whole life as an Episcopalian, when campaigning in the South McCain began to claim he's a Baptist.  No one can find any proof of this.
Matt Stoller :: Obama Leaves Trinity Church

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Obama Leaves Trinity Church | 41 comments
The Corner (4.00 / 6)
The people on the Corner are constantly ragging on TUCC so i had to send an email saying "OK. Fair Enough but does McCain even HAVE a church ?"

To which I was answered that he was Methodist or Baptist.

To which I replied "Let me get this straight. The specific church Obama worships at is worthy of hundreds of thousands of words and videos and scrutiny but you don't even know McCain's denomination ? WTF ?"

You Don't Understand, Benjamin (4.00 / 4)
Republicans are God.  They don't need no stinkin' churches!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3
[ Parent ]
Not sure about Republicanas (4.00 / 2)
But McCain sure is hell don't need no stinkin' churches!

McCain prefers lobbyists.

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power

[ Parent ]
McCain's Not A Baptist, He's A Monetarist! (4.00 / 5)
re-affiliated under his wife's name, of course!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3
Uh, gee, wonder why he didn't want to say Episcopalian? (4.00 / 3)
Could the words New Hampshire Bishop Gene Robinson have anything to do with it?
Don't see why (0.00 / 0)
I was raised Church of England, and the worldwide Anglican congregation is a broad church. It encompasses everything from de facto agnostics to gay-bashing zealots who foam at the mouth. Robinson's hardly the central figure, and plenty of members of the American church have no time for him anyway. Nor are his words that controversial - it's who he is that gets him condemned.

Aside from which, how is that better? Changing your denomination to avoid mixing with homosexuals is pretty ridiculous.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

[ Parent ]
It's the American way (4.00 / 1)
Changing your denomination to avoid mixing with homosexuals is pretty ridiculous.

True, but we go in for such behavior here. Without Establishment, religion becomes a matter of consumer choice. :-)

Can it happen here?

[ Parent ]
His wife's a Baptist. (4.00 / 1)
That's why he goes to that church. If in fact he does.

What's funny to me is, I can find no reference to his having been baptized, as an adult, which is the foundational practice of that denomination.

Where oh where is the media on that one?

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
IOKIYAR. (4.00 / 3)
Also: IOKIYAWR (yadda yadda White Republican). Because only Black pastors (and politicians) seem to receive such a high level of scrutiny in matters of religion.
And white Catholic preists, now, apparantly... n/t (0.00 / 0)


REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!
[ Parent ]
Obama set himself up for this (4.00 / 2)
by promoting himself as a guy deeply grounded in the black church.  I mean he played that card hard, that he was deeply religious and all, to the point of lecturing other Democrats on their insufficient public piety, much like his US Senate mentor, torture-loving Joe Lieberman.  Obama's religiosity was supposed to be one of the manifestations of his new and fresh approach to politics, how he was leaving behind the old politics that other Democrats were supposedly mired in.

His vulnerability is precisely because he has run a right-leaning campaign based on trying to sew up Republican-leaning voters.  Now all the Repubs have to do to beat him is show those fence sitters that he ain't really as conservative as he pretends to be.

If Obama had run an honest campaign, one unafraid to try to move the political discussion of the nation to the left, he wouldn't be nearly as vulnerable to this stuff.  But he ain't.  He is a craven centrist who will be stampeded into denouncing somebody new, somebody honestly progressive every week.

How else can you explain stuff like his endorsing continuation of the 46 year old failed embargo of Cuba?

"If you want that good feeling that comes from doing things for other people, then you have to pay for it in abuse and misunderstanding..."
Zora Neale Hurston

No other candidate talked about their faith deeply (0.00 / 0)
I mean bill clinton never mentioned his faith at all?
[ Parent ]
Yes but (0.00 / 0)
Bill Clinton went to a WHITE church! Get with the program!

Montani semper liberi
[ Parent ]
Umm I work toward (0.00 / 0)
reaching out to people of faith for Obama.  I've seen no evidence of this.  In fact Obama is making shocking inroads into under 45 evangelicals.
[ Parent ]
You Have A Valid Point There, But You're WAY Overplaying It (4.00 / 2)
Obama did bring this on himself, and was disingenuous in various ways.  But it's hardly turning into the disaster that you (and portions of the M$M) portray.

And maybe--just maybe--because it has produced consternation, but not disaster, it will eventually lead to a more sober discussion of how to talk more honestly about why John Locke maybe wasn't such a crazy Communist after all.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Love the irony :-) (4.00 / 1)
And maybe--just maybe--because it has produced consternation, but not disaster, it will eventually lead to a more sober discussion of how to talk more honestly about why John Locke maybe wasn't such a crazy Communist after all.

[ Parent ]
This McCain stuff won't work (1.33 / 3)
Obama has to defend himself on his own terms, and right now he looks like a chickenshit politician.  Twenty years of worship, lot of praise for his new pastor, and on a Saturday night he turns tail and runs?  

Obama now has to find a new church and explain his new spirtual underpinnings. There must be something really bad coming down the pike for him to take such drastic action.

This Is Silly (4.00 / 4)
There's certainly a good deal intelligent that could be said in the way of criticizing Obama's "me-too" political religiosity.

But somehow you've managed to say none of it.  Not even close.

And you know, McCain really is in league with certified Armageddon enthusiasts.  The sort who almost make Pat Robertson look sane.

The fact that you can't parse such differences shows that you're about as ignorant on such matters as the M$M, which is really pretty darned bad.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I think its because the Armegeddon enthusiasts are huge supporters of the state of Israel, in the most right-wing way possible. (4.00 / 1)
This of course is not because they like or respect the Jewish people, its because these dangerous people want wars, fire and brimstone to cause the next Armageddon. They want all out nuclear war in the middle east because they believe Jesus will then come back and convert all the Jews, or something like that. I make a point not to pay too much attention to these people.

What surprises and dissipoints me is when Jewish leaders praise and help legitimize these people, these Armageddon beliefs are truly dangerous and these people have their influence going way too close to the Republican presidents.

Its a one-two, he gets to prove his social Christian nutty value system and simultaniously continue his pro-war and Israel Lukid but-kissing.

Meanwhile, more people from the general public generally think that its Obama's church thats crazy.....

End this war. Stop John McCain. Cindy McCain is filthy rich.

[ Parent ]
We need a date for his dunking (4.00 / 6)
Look, not all Protestants are the same.  

If McCain was an Episcopalian, he would have been sprinkled.  If he converted to being a Baptist, he would need to be dunked, because the Baptists do not (look at their name) believe that a sprinkle takes care of matters.  

Now if he had gone the other way -- from a full emersion practice to a pouring or sprinkling one, he probably would not need to repeat, that is unless he converted to Catholicism, whereupon he would get a conditional pouring.  

You know wars have been fought over such details --  

Knowing McCain (4.00 / 3)
in light of the whole Hagee/Parsley/Word of Faith thing, I think it's entirely possible that he just went to Dunkin' Donughts and called it "close enough for religion."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3
[ Parent ]
Good decision (0.00 / 0)
It's the smart move and is well timed in its coincidence with other big news events (although not well timed in that he should have done it earlier, like last year).  I'm sure he'll catch some flack in some quarters for the decision being politically motivated, but that's minor damage in the end.  Nobody will vote for McCain in the fall simply because Obama didn't stick to his guns on Trinity.  But leaving this church, which like it or not is poison for him, may help with some swing voters.  

John McCain: Health insurance for low income children represents an "unfunded liability."
Shame (4.00 / 3)
One can see why Obama's doing it, but I think it's pretty appalling that he has to. Freedom of religion shouldn't be conditional on media approval. Especially since much of the TUCC furore was a cheap attempt to paint Obama as a Manchurian candidate for the Black Panthers. That's why Hagee and Parsley didn't get as much attention - they're a much more establishment hate, with none of the genuine grievances that motivate Wright.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog
Matt, two problems (0.00 / 0)
with your statement on McCain. First of all, he didn't change his religion at all. He's still a Christian. He may have changed denominations, but that's not the same thing.

And actually, he hasn't switched denominations. He's an Episcopalian who attends a Baptist church without having joined it. He rather clumsily tried to play that up to attract some Evangelical votes, but it's all been clear enough for a while now. Cliff ought to know that.

Visit Street Prophets to talk about faith + politics!

Obama Leaves Trinity Church | 41 comments
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