How the Primary Campaign and General Election are and Should Be Different

by: tremayne

Mon Jun 02, 2008 at 10:34


There have been a lot of comparisons lately between things that happen in a primary campaign and things that happen (sometimes) in a general election. For example, the claim that a candidate who wins an intra-party contest in a state is the most likely one to win that state in the general election. Or this: that it's bad that Al Gore lost the general election in 2000 while winning a lot more votes overall and so it is equally bad that Hillary Clinton could lose the primary campaign after winning more votes.

First, as Chris reexamines below, I don't think Clinton has a legitimate claim to more popular support than Obama. And even if she had more popular support in January (when the non-competitive and partially-attended elections things were conducted in MI/FL) it doesn't mean she has more support now. For example, the latest Gallop numbers show Obama with a large lead over Clinton in national support. And when it comes to popular support, isn't June support more important that January support when it comes to picking the best candidate for November? Which brings me to my second and more important point.

tremayne :: How the Primary Campaign and General Election are and Should Be Different

Let's assume for a moment that Hillary Clinton holds a narrow and legitimate popular vote lead. For example, if the MI/FL debacle never occurred or she won a couple hundred thousands more votes in other states. Would her popular vote argument then be legitimate in a way it is currently not?  I've argued before that the Obama campaign appears to have strictly followed a delegate-winning strategy rather than a popular vote total strategy. And while those two measures of support are strongly correlated they are not the same. His margin of victory in pledged delegates will be wider than his margin in popular votes as a result of the strategy they followed which was predicated on the rules of the party. I'll make a new argument here: that the purpose of the primary campaign is fundamentally different than the purpose of the general election and that the differences make certain claims wrong. How are they different?

1. The general election is a snapshot of public opinion, hopefully a well-informed public after months of campaigning and debate, but a snapshot nonetheless.  This year's snapshot will be on November 4.

The primary campaign is NOT a snapshot of public opinion. The primary campaign is a process. It is designed to take longer. The voting takes place over a period of 5 months. It is intentially front-loaded with a few small states to allow lesser-funded candidates a chance and to encourage a thorough understanding of those candidates by the residents of those lucky states. They get to see the candidates up close.

2. Voters in general elections are choosing between, for the most part, 2 candidates. This year we'll have Nader and Barr and ?? also on the ballot but for most voters it will be a choice between the Republican candidate and the Democratic candidate.

The primary process, on the other hand, involves a winnowing of major candidates from 8 or so down to about 3, then 2 and then 1.  This was most clearly seen this year on the Republican side where Giuliani and McCain were the early frontrunners but then faded while Romney and Huckabee rose up.  McCain made his comeback and eventually won.

If we had a truly national primary, held in, say, November of 2007, then the nominees would be Giuliani and Clinton. And if we had such a "snapshot" primary we could clearly and without fear of contradiction point to the results as say The People Have Spoken. But wouild we have the best candidates for President of the United States? 

(UPDATE. We are trading the popular vote certainty that a national primary would give us for something better. Something that takes longer but allows, hopefully, the strongest candidate to emerge.)

When we look at the popular vote total in the primary, as Chris does below, it is important to remember that we are adding together votes from January, votes from February, votes from May, etc.  In the earlier contests there were multiple candidates, in the latter only 2. Were these contests held all at the end of the process we would have different totals. If they were held at the beginning, we would have different totals. If there were only 2 candidates all along, we would have different totals. Adding these all together and pretending the totals tell us something critically important about who is the legitimate "popular" winner is folly.

The primary system is not perfect but it is specifically designed to be a dynamic process that at least allows for non-establishment candidates to have a shot. This year, with the ludicrously-stacked Super Duper Tuesday, we came as close as ever to a national primary. This stacking of the deck, if not orchestrated by the Clintons, certainly played directly in their favor. If not for the exposure Iowa afforded and for some astute delegate hunting by the Obama campaign, it would certainly have been the end of the campaign. If we had a national primary this year in early January, Clinton would be the likely nominee. As it is, voters got just enough time to learn about and hear Barack Obama to give him a bit more support than Clinton. In the process, we also got to see how Obama and Clinton managed a large complicated operation. That Obama's team beat the experienced Clinton machine, however narrowly, should be taken as evidence of his ability, even by Clinton supporters.


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?? (4.00 / 1)
You're saying that the popular vote total is less significant because the voting takes place over the course of many months, as opposed to a single day?

But that same "logic" could be used to minimize Obama's delegate lead. You say:

It is important to remember that we are adding together votes from January, votes from February, votes from May, etc.  In the earlier contests there were multiple candidates, in the latter only 2. Were these contests held all at the end of the process we would have different totals. If they were held at the beginning, we would have different totals. If there were only 2 candidates all along, we would have different totals. Adding these all together and pretending the totals tell us something critically important about who is the legitimate "popular" winner is folly.

The same could be said about Obama's delegate lead. The fact is, the process is cumulative, and under that process, Clinton may have won more votes--that has moral weight. It would have more moral weight has the elections in Florida and Michigan had been real.

I don't know if Clinton will lead in popular votes by the end of this, or if we'll ever really know what those totals are, or if a popular vote victory gives a candidate a claim to the nomination under this awful system, but it's ugly, the effort by some progressives to downplay the significance of the popular vote total.

I believe that if Clinton had a substantial and indisputable lead in the popular vote, she'd have a strong claim on the nomination--do you disagree?



isn't June support more important that January support (4.00 / 1)
this statement is really wrong headed and the arguments put forth in the story are baffling. as if primary votes early in the process are worth less than primary votes later? that the primary should be determined by poll numbers in June?, why June? why not May? or July? or August? why bother having people vote if we're just going to use poll numbers or if we're going to discount the value of some elections because they happened 6 months ago. and why does this argument only apply to FL and MI; as the parent here suggests, this argument is easily turned on Obama as well in regards to elections and delegates won early vs late.

There is clearly lots of funky math going on. Some of that funkiness is never the less legitimate, because there is no clear way to count the vote total and so people are trying to objectively come to some accurate summary of all votes cast. However some the funkiness disingenuously cheery picks which votes count in an effort to distort and spin the argument. The argument put forward in this story is more of the later type and is not a good way to look at the situation.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
yes (4.00 / 3)

From this post by kos:

 

  • Open Caucuses (Democrats, Republicans and Independents allowed)
  • Modified Caucuses (Democrats and Independents)
  • Closed Caucuses (Democrats only)
  • Open Primaries (Democrats, Republicans, and Independents allowed)
  • Modified Primaries (Democrats and Independents)
  • Closed Primaries (Democrats only)
  • Mixture of open caucuses and open primaries (i.e. Texas)
  • Mail-in ballot primary
  • Weekend primary
  • Weekday primary

These are the different systems used in the various states/territories.  Because participation varies so much in these systems, adding together votes (actually impossible for some caucus states) yields a number that is only an approximation of public support.

The only apple-to-apple comparison is that each state has a system to award pledged delegates. The advantages to using this as the yardstick are:

1. It's the official yardstick of the party

2. Both campaigns knew it was the official yardstick at the start of all this.

 



[ Parent ]
That's a different issue (4.00 / 1)
I acknowledge that it may be impossible to come up with a popular vote total, and I'm not arguing for HC on that basis, or any basis. I voted for Obama.

You said the pop vote total isn't significant because the voting takes place over many months--I found this argument silly, and you've done nothing yet to convince me otherwise.


[ Parent ]
not completely insignificant (0.00 / 0)
The popular vote metric is 1)fuzzy and 2) unofficial. But it may have the power to persuade some superdelegates. My argument is this: should superdelegates be persuaded that in February Californians, who had seen relatively little of Obama, broke heavily for Clinton when today they break heavily for Obama? As a persuasive devise, popular support today is much more important than popular support three months ago.

If, however, adding the popular vote was some sort of "official" metric used to determine the winner, then we'd have no choice but to add the votes together regardless of the way people feel today. But it's not.


[ Parent ]
you are wildly rewriting voter intent (0.00 / 0)
don't you see that you are projecting what voters in California would do based on something other than their vote? For example the same could be done for the Iowa vote arguing they had not seen Rev Wright.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
the pledged delegate totals will not change (0.00 / 0)
We're talking about the appropriateness of superdelegates thinking about popular votes. Although I am not a Hillary Clinton supporter I would agree that superdelegates could be persuaded by a huge display of shifting public sentiment. The flimsy "I have a narrow popular vote lead if you count things a certain way" isn't that.

Now, in your example above, let's say there was a scandal much bigger than Wright and support for Obama plunged in Iowa and everywhere else. And let's say it stayed down. In that case, yes, I think superdelegates (even those from Iowa) could look at that and consider it. Obviously this is one of Hillary's reasons for sticking it out. I don't think that will happen.

I'm also skeptical of the "I beat you in that state and therefore I'll do better against McCain than you." It may be true in some places (WV?) and not others. Now I'm rambling though.


[ Parent ]
you are arguing that supers should consider later votes as worth more (0.00 / 0)
than early votes. What the margins of difference are is not relevant to the validity of that argument.  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
No (0.00 / 0)
That would be bad because our system is geographic.  By chance one candidate may have more support in states that come later. For example, Clinton has been popular in the Appalachian region. Ohio in March, Pennsylvania in April, West Virginia and Kentucky in May. I wouldn't argue that later is better uniformly because these regional differences have been large factors.

But, if I was a superdelegate, particularly an elected superdelegate, I would be concerned about June sentiment in my state/district as much as February. The shift has been particularly  strong in California where, given the calendar, Obama didn't have a lot of time for campaigning/ads.  


[ Parent ]
Don't forget (0.00 / 0)
Edwards was polling well in Oklahoma before he got out ...also .. how many votes did he get in KY and WV? .. a substantial sum considering he hadn't been in the race in 3 months

[ Parent ]
You're conflating two points (0.00 / 0)
There's the question of whether the popular vote total has moral and political weight and the question of whether the popular vote totals accurately assess who has the most support today.

I would say yes (in theory) to the first and no the second, but it's also obvious that cumulative delegate totals don't necessarily accurately assess support today. That was my original point.



[ Parent ]
popular vote (4.00 / 1)
To me, saying anything about the popular vote is silly as long as some states have primaries and some have general elections.

What if NY and CA had had caucuses instead of primaries? Or what if Obama had run up a 200,000 vote lead in MN if they had a primary instead of a caucus? It just makes no sense because someone (i.e. Hillary) can play with the numbers to make the case they want. And in this case, many of the primaries were in states that were favorable, demographics or geography-wise, to her.

I find things to like about both caucuses and primaries. But unless every state is doing one or the other (or both like TX) then I think popular vote counts need to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Which thankfully is what the super-delegates are doing.


[ Parent ]
Oh, I see (4.00 / 1)
You were answering the question I asked. I take it to mean you're saying that an "indisputable lead" is impossible to claim under our system, and I'm inclined to agree. Terrible system.



[ Parent ]
the official yardstick (0.00 / 0)
I completely agree that the delegates are the official yardstick and that the campaigns put their focus on it (until it doesn't work out for them).

This is a very and most compelling argument. but that has nothing to do with when those delegates are won - early, late, in the middle, in caucuses, not in caucuses. in fact the argument that later votes are some how more important than early votes is completely at odds with the argument that the delegate count rules. under the time relative argument early delegates won would be worth less, in which case Hillary should be the nominee, or its a draw if you want to factor in when super delegates gave their support.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
agreed (0.00 / 0)
The cumulative nature of a drawn-out process and the popular vote vs. delegate issue have nothing to do with one another.  With a popular vote model we'd have the same timing issues: we could do it all in one day, but if we don't (and I don't think we should) then it is quite possible that people will change their mind after they've voted.  To "correct" that with polling would be particularly wrong.

[ Parent ]
which gives me an idea how to solve the moving up business (0.00 / 0)
so this is probably an incredibly stupid idea, but its fun. so, to stop all this moving up bs, the party could weight delegates differently by when they are voted in the schedule. Iowa and New Hampshire could stay early but then their delegates would only get a .2 vote weight. states voting in may would get a .6 and South Dakota and Montana would get a full vote. then states could petition to be placed earlier or later in the schedule and things could be rotated if need be. but if you want to go early you're going to pay the price with a lower vote weight at the convention. if you want a full vote, then you don't get to be an early decider.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
This already occurs (0.00 / 0)
Not the exact system you mention but there are some delegate incentives for going later I believe. I think we need some rotation but I think starting with small states is a good idea.

[ Parent ]
you can't have an "indisputable" lead in the popular vote (4.00 / 4)
at least not given the circumstances here.  Nate at FiveThirtyEight.com has a great way to walk through the 972 way to count the popular vote.

972

How can this measure possibly if there are 972 arguable ways to do it.  Subjective statistics are, above all, pointless.

I agree that this process is flawed, but the Clinton team agreed to it at the onset (when they assumed victory) and then started whining when they realized Obama was quite good at campaigning in the confines of this system.  In that light I think the pd count is the closest thing to the 'will of the people' you can hope for in this process.  

pragmatism now, reform for 2012.

I'm glad it's done


[ Parent ]
Rules take into account the dynamic process (0.00 / 0)
That's one of the purposes of superdelegates, who everyone agrees can vote whom they want.  Hillary's people have also argued that pledged delegates can switch, which may be true and would also allow the final delegate total to reflect the dynamic nature of the primary.

I do agree with the last paragraph, and believe that were that the case, thye supers would go with her.  But she doesn't and they are not going to her.  They have been steadily going to Obama since Super Tuesday, giving him his current lead among supers.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
Speaking of the dynamic process (0.00 / 0)
Here is a chart of the polling data on Obama vs Clinton over the past month (basically since IN/NC) and it shows a steady lead for him, now 10 pts.  And click on this graph to see how supers have gone for him since IN/NC.  It was evidently over after those races for the supers.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
You've left out the biggest difference... (4.00 / 1)
which is that the general election is governed by the Constitution and the primary by party rules.  I detest the electoral college, but the way the system for amending the Constitution is set up there's very little chance for it to change.  Whereas the rules for the primary can be changed easily, and have done so frequently, sometimes in an ad hoc way (such as the decision to cut FL and MI out entirely, rather than halve them at the beginning, which is what the rules seemed to say ought to happen).

What we have, therefore, is not a situation in which a majority of Democratic voters (and some others allowed or not according to state) have said that one candidate or the other would be a better president.  Halvsies.  Flip a coin.  Instead, we have a situation in which one campaign has shown itself to be more astute than the other in figuring out how to maximize returns in a situation of complicated and byzantine rules.

No doubt this has something to do with governance.  It is not, however, a victory for democracy.  (Not saying that installing Clinton would be a victory for democracy.  But I am profoundly uncomfortable with the contention that party rules are more important than popular vote.)


I would be (4.00 / 5)
profoundly unhappy if the nomination was a one-day popular national vote. Such a system would, inarguably, be a strong reflection of that day's public sentiment, and yet I would be much happier with the system we have now and would be happier without such a super duper Tuesday.

[ Parent ]
Problem is ... (0.00 / 0)
guys like T-Mac(when he was DNC chair) didn't see a need to change anything .. and even poor Harold Ickes voted in favor of the original stripping of FL/MI ... it is left up to each state how they want to hold their contest .. if popular vote is going to be the metric .. then things will need to change in places like Iowa(and Nevada) .. and I don't know how likely that is to happen

[ Parent ]
that's an advantage (0.00 / 0)
One of the good things about having people pay attention to the popular vote as a metric would be that it would severely disadvantage caucus states.  That's a good thing.

[ Parent ]
I like caucuses (0.00 / 0)
Not for every state, but that's a subject for another post.

[ Parent ]
I do too (0.00 / 0)


Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
In the abstract, I'm stardust (4.00 / 6)
There's one metric, it's the delegate process agreed to by all the DNC rules committee and administered by the DNC. Everything else is bulls!t.

There are so many caveats, logic shifts, apples-to-oranges comparisons required to come up with something resembling a popular vote that you may as well say Hillary Clinton should have been President instead of Teddy Roosevelt because she got more votes. She DID get more votes then Teddy Roosevelt -- but there are a lot of very clear reasons why nobody cares.

Because time travel isn't real.

John McCain


Bingo (4.00 / 1)
All this talk about the popular vote - which, by even the most generous counts, she'll be losing come Wed. morning anyway - is just another bullshit meaningless metric thrown out by the Clinton camp.

[ Parent ]
The Talking Points Will Be the Same, Though (0.00 / 0)
-Experience is no substitute for good judgment
-The opposition will say anything to get elected
-Iraq, Iraq, Iraq
-Carpetbagger who shopped for a state to start a political career
-Needed spouse to get elected

Things You Don't Talk About in Polite Company: Religion, Politics, the Occasional Intersection of Both

January (0.00 / 0)
If my super Tuesday caucus had been 3 weeks earlier, before Sen. Clinton stood up and applauded Bush's statements about the success of his "surge" (aka, the escalation), I might have voted for her, instead of for Obama. That was the event that opened my eyes to the rather significant difference on the Iraq occupation between the two.

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