The Edwards Benchmark--Winning The Swing

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Jun 15, 2008 at 11:14


In my diary last weekend, "The Democratic Swing & Independent Swing--What The SUSA Polls Can Tell Us", I amplified Chris's point about the magnitude of the Democratic swing being larger than that of the independent swing, by presenting a state-level analysis using the Survey USA polls with different VP candidates generating the ranges used for the "swing" calculations.  I did this for all voters, and for Democrats and Independents.  In this diary, I want to take a look at how Edwards on the ticket changed things.

The point here is not to make the case for Edwards--I think I've already done that quite convincingly.  Whether or not he would reverse himself and accept if called, his presence on the ticket clearly makes a landslide much more possible. So the point of this diary is just to get a little better fix on what his presence accomplishes in regard to the swings Chris was comparing.  Because, one way or another, if Democrats can get to the point that the battlefield looks like it would with Edwards on the ticket, then we are defintely on the road to having ourselves another 1932.

Charts and tables on the flip.

Paul Rosenberg :: The Edwards Benchmark--Winning The Swing
Let's start off with a chart to establish the big picture.  The thick purple line is Obama alone against McCain, the thick light blue line is Obama/Edwards against the average of four McCain VPs, the dark yellow line is the lower bound for Obama, his worst VP matchup vs. McCain's strongest in each state (not the same matchup across them all), and the light yellow line is Obama/Edwards' worst showing against McCain's strongest VP against them.  The two sightly different-colored orange lines (differing only in Nebraska) are the best showings by Obama and Obama Edwards:

Two things are most striking about this chart: First, the lower bound with Obama/Edwards is dramatically higher than the lower bound with Obama alone--and this is true across all states.  Second, the worst Obama/Edwards showing is better than the straight-up Obama v. McCain numbers for the same state for almost every state--a shows of  remarkable consistency for Edwards helping Obama.

For those who love pouring over numbers, here's a table presenting some of the significant data underlying the above chart.  Margins are the thick lines, best are the orange lines, worst are the yellow.  Key things to look at are the swing  percent change and the worst showing gain.  These are the clearest indications of how much Edwards helps Obama, using a comparable measure for all states.  There is a remarkable consistency in both measures. Percent gains range from a low of 57% to a high of 74%, but with more than 2/3rs of them in the 60s, and an average of 64%. Gains in worst showing range from 11% to 20% with an average of 14:

Swing Range Based on VPs-Obama V. McCain
  Obama Alone v. McCain/VPsObama/Edwards v. McCain/VPsSwingsWorst Showing
StatesMarginBestWorstMarginBestWorstObamaO/EChange% ChangeObamaO/EGain
KS-10%-2%-26%-8%-2%-12%24%10%14%58%-26%-12%14%
NE-9%4%-17%-3%2%-6%21%8%13%62%-17%-6%11%
NM0%10%-17%6%10%3%27%7%20%74%-17%3%20%
MO2%11%-13%7%11%3%24%8%16%67%-13%3%16%
MA5%20%-1%14%20%11%21%9%12%57%-1%11%12%
MN5%15%-8%11%15%7%23%8%15%65%-8%7%15%
WI6%15%-5%11%15%8%20%7%13%65%-5%8%13%
VA7%18%-8%13%18%9%26%9%17%65%-8%9%17%
CA8%15%-4%12%15%9%19%6%13%68%-4%9%13%
PA8%17%-5%14%17%10%22%7%15%68%-5%10%15%
OH9%18%-2%14%18%11%20%7%13%65%-2%11%13%
IA9%26%-8%19%26%12%34%14%20%59%-8%12%20%
OR10%17%-2%13%17%10%19%7%12%63%-2%10%12%
NY10%20%-1%16%20%12%21%8%13%62%-1%12%13%
WA16%23%5%20%23%16%18%7%11%61%5%16%11%
Avg5.1%15.1%-7.5%10.5%15.0%6.9%23%8%14%64%-7%7%14%

Next, we take a graphical look at how this is reflected among Democrats.  Note how incredibly narrow the swing is with Edwards from Pennsylvania onwards--and how correspondingly large the gap is between Obama' worst showing without Edwards and his worst showing with him:

And a look at how it is reflected among independents.  Here it's atill clear how strongly and consistently Edwards helps Obama, but it's clear that nothing can match the strength he brings in nailing down the Democratic base vote:

We can summarize the above charts by putting together the swings of all voters, Democrats and independents into one chart, first for Obama alone, and then for Obama/Edwards.

For Obama alone, the swing ranges from around 17% to about 34%, and the Democratic swing is noticably higher in virtually every state:

For Obama/Edwards, the swing is much lower--ranging from around 6% to about 14%, and the independent swing is larger than the Democratic swing in a number of states:

The following two tables present the data underlying the charts above:

Swing Range Based on VPs-Obama V. McCain
  Amount of SwingPercent of Swing*
StateTotalDemsIndsDiffDemsIndsDiff
WA18.0%7.3%6.0%1.3%40.6%33.2%7.4%
CA19.0%10.6%5.0%5.6%55.6%26.3%29.3%
OR19.0%9.6%5.9%3.7%50.5%31.0%19.5%
OH20.0%12.0%6.8%5.1%59.8%34.2%25.6%
WI20.0%7.9%7.5%0.4%39.6%37.7%1.9%
MA21.0%12.2%10.1%2.0%57.9%48.3%9.6%
NY21.0%13.8%5.8%8.0%65.5%27.5%38.0%
NE21.0%8.7%3.2%5.5%41.6%15.4%26.2%
PA22.0%10.5%4.1%6.4%47.5%18.6%28.9%
MN23.0%9.8%6.6%3.2%42.8%28.7%14.1%
MO24.0%11.9%6.4%5.4%49.5%26.8%22.7%
KS24.0%10.8%3.8%7.1%45.0%15.6%29.4%
VA26.0%10.3%8.6%1.7%39.4%33.0%6.4%
NM27.0%14.0%2.6%11.4%52.0%9.8%42.2%
IA34.0%12.6%13.2%-0.6%37.1%38.8%-1.8%
Avg22.6%10.8%6.4%4.4%48.3%28.3%20.0%
* Swings are not strictly additive, as they represent maximums from a range of values, but can safely be directly compared.

Swing Range Based on VPs-Obama/Edwards V. McCain/VPs
  Amount of SwingPercent of Swing*
StateTotalDemsIndsDiffDemsIndsDiff
CA6%1.4%2.0%-0.6%24.0%33.3%-9.3%
NM7%5.2%1.6%3.6%74.3%22.3%52.0%
OH7%2.6%4.1%-1.5%37.1%59.1%-22.0%
PA7%2.8%2.7%0.0%39.3%38.6%0.7%
WA7%1.7%3.9%-2.2%24.6%55.7%-31.1%
WI7%0.7%3.2%-2.5%10.3%45.6%-35.3%
OR7%2.4%2.1%0.3%34.3%29.9%4.4%
MO8%1.3%3.7%-2.4%16.5%46.0%-29.5%
MN8%3.3%2.2%1.1%41.0%27.5%13.5%
NE8%3.4%0.9%2.5%42.8%11.3%31.5%
NY8%7.2%2.4%4.8%89.4%29.8%59.6%
MA9%7.2%4.7%2.5%80.0%52.0%28.0%
VA9%1.2%3.7%-2.5%13.7%41.6%-27.9%
KS10%4.8%1.8%3.0%48.0%18.0%30.0%
IA14%2.7%5.3%-2.6%19.3%37.7%-18.4%
Avg8%3.2%2.9%0.2%39.6%36.5%3.1%
* Swings are not strictly additive, as they represent maximums from a range of values, but can safely be directly compared.

Combined, the figures make it quite clear that Edwards has dramatically reduced the size of the Democratic swing by solidifying the base.  There are still a lot of Democratic base votes in play, due to the sheer size of the Democratic base, and to the strength of the Obama/Edwards ticket among independents.  But Edwards has dramatically reduced the uncertainty among the base that remained at the end of the primary season.

Conclusion

The above analysis was based on the SUSA polls taken in May.  The older of these are now almost a month old, and it is obvious that Obama's campaign has hit the ground running, while McCain is still visibly fumbling.  In all probability, Obama has already gained significantly among the Democratic base since the earliest--if not all--of these polls were taken.

Still, the Republican smear machine has not let up, and we can only expect much more of the same.  A known, familiar, respected quantity like John Edwards is a powerful guarantor against the dramatic ups and downs that this sort of dirty campaign can bring.  Thus, the above figures represent a realistic benchmark, not just for the beginning of the general election race, but also, going forward, for what an Obama team should strive to achieve in narrowing the battlefield significantly in their favor.


Tags: , , , , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
I will note the obvious which has been assiduously avoided here (0.00 / 0)
In other polls it is clear that putting Hillary Clinton on the ticket is even more effective than Edwards.  It is interesting to me that the VP matchups you used did not include her.  

Other than your own personal predilections it has no decent rationale...other than avoiding the obvious that electorally she is far and away the best choice.

Hiding from the facts doesn't make it less true.  You really want to see what would happen in terms of a LARGE WIN none of this talk is valid withut putting her numbers into it.

Find some polls not 2-3 months old, unlike AP just did to create a bogus case.  And the valid way is not to ask people if they want her on the ticket or think it's a good idea...like in the 3 month old poll AP used but to do matchups using her and Obama against McCain.

Then we can begin to have an honest assessment.


"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


What Polls? I'm Not AVOIDING Anything (4.00 / 2)
I've already criticized Survey USA's VP choice repeatedly in the past.  I've said that they should have included Clinton--and probably Richardson, as well. But I'm just using the data available, not intentionally avoiding anything.  We simply don't have the kind of data on an Obama/Clinton ticket that we do on an Obama/Edwards one.

Plus, of course, there's the entire theoretical backdrop to this, which goes all the way back to Chris's 2004 post-mortem.

However, SUSA did include Clinton in one of their state polls--Michigan, which I don't include, because it only used Romney on the GOP side.  Still, what that showed was not that Clinton was stronger than Edwards, but that she was about the same (as was Al Gore), something that would not necessarily be expected in some other places where Edwards is also strong--such as Virginia.

Add this to the fact that (a) she's not a reinforcing VP, (b) she attacked Obama using GOP talking points, so putting her on the ticket would essentially validate those attacks in September and October, (c) she does have strong negatives with a substantial block of votes which Edwards does not, and it's quite clear that she is far from an ideal running mate.

But, like I've said many times, I sure would have liked to have had the data.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Wait a minute... (0.00 / 0)
SUSA polls showed the Obama-Clinton, Obama-Edwards, and Obama-Gore all had the same relative strength and you still think that these polls are a measure of something other than name recognition?

Obama-Clinton, Obama-Edwards, Obama-Gore polling strong. Obama-Sebelius is not. Who would have thought that more people would respond positively to national figures instead of a mostly unknown Kansas governor?


[ Parent ]
That Was In ONE State Against ONE VP Choice--A Favorite Son (4.00 / 1)
If you can't see how limited that data is, in comparison with the set of 15 polls I've analyzed here, then there's really no point in talking further.

But, for the sake of others, I will also repeat once again that Clinton has obvious liabilities for the ticket, discussed in response to another comment here, while Edwards has benefits, going back to Chris's analysis as one of his main conclusions to his post-mortem on the 2004 elections.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
SUSA (4.00 / 1)
didn't include Clinton in the trial heats.

I don't know why.  I personally find it nothing short of bizzare.

But don't blame Paul here.


[ Parent ]
Very interesting (0.00 / 0)
One of the things I am always comparing is state polls to national polls to see if the same trend is present.

In the last 10 days we have seen Obama dramatically solidifying the Democratic Base. I wrote about this about 10 days ago: as I noted Obama was winning about 80% of the Democratic vote.  Since then a few national polls say this number is at 85.  

Many of the these SUSA polls were taken before the swing in the national polls became apparent.  My guess is you would find the VP's effect among Democrats signficantly lower if you took the same polls now.

I was going to write about Obama's performance among Dems in the SUSA polls and make the comparison to the National Polls (I have finished the work).  You have done a lot of work here: I don't want to step on your toes.



I Look Forward To Seeing It (0.00 / 0)
I agree that Obama has probably solidified his position significantly since these polls were done--and, indeed, I said as much.  But (a) he's still a new quantity, and thus what was recently gained may still be loosely held, and (b) we don't know by how much.

What we do know, regardless, is that the Obama/Edwards numbers show what was possible, even before the nominating process was over.  And that's still a useful benchmark for looking forward.

As I said in my subject line, I look forward to seeing what you've found.


"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Please post a link (0.00 / 0)
in this thread to your own analysis, fladem.

I'm sure that Paul & I are only two of many who would like to see your results.


[ Parent ]
Edwards did a nice job on This Week (4.00 / 1)
Defending Obama's policies.  Will post YT later if it is available.  Paul especially will find the interview interesting I think.

Also, I posted a diary about Elizabeth Edwards' appearance on POTUS08 (yeah, I know it's promoting another diary--but it is related to Edwards) as she said something interesting things too about the campaigns.  

http://www.openleft.com/showDi...


I don't want Hillary on the ticket. I has nothing to do with her gender. (4.00 / 1)
It has to do with her agenda. Hillary remains in the pocket of Big Pharma and the Health insurance companies that wrote that awful ineffective for the middle class privatized Medicare prescription drug benefit.

I just did not like when Hillary did nothing to change it or repeal it and put the benefit into part B.

I also didn't like how she crowed that her health care would not get run by the government. I want the health insurance companies to sell life insurance and stop selling health insurance and the government take it over.

I supported Edwards before I supported Obama, as Edwards appeared the least conservative of the group of Democrats according to a 2 dimensional ideology graph I saw in 2007.

Hillary appeared the most conservative of the Democrats and Kucinich appeared the most liberal but the Nazi Republiklan party would skin Kucinich alive with their dirty propaganda.

I doubt if Edwards will run on Obama's ticket. If you ask me, Governor Sebelius will get the offer to run.

Oh, I'm an 8 year Prisoner of W and if McCAIN gets elected, we willremain prisoners of W for another 4 years in a 3rd Hooverite Republiklan party term.


Overinterpreting bad data (0.00 / 0)
I might be missing something, but I figured that comparative Obama/VP polls at this point test nothing more than the name recognition of the named VP. For example, if someone were silly enough to ask about Obama/Gore, I'm sure the response would be very positive... in May! That doesn't give one shred of evidence that Gore would be a good running mate!

I think it's pretty likely that many of the other names being tossed around could do better than Edwards once people really get to know the person that goes with the name.


Name Recognition Is NECESSARY, But Not Sufficient (4.00 / 1)
For whatever reason, SUSA did a much better job on the GOP side, testing Huckabee, Romney, Lieberman and Pawlenty.  The results there showed that Pawlenty--an unknown outside his home state--was consistently at or near the bottom.  But the top showed variation, even though Huckabee usually took the top.  And the middle positions showed considerably jockeying.  Plus the internals showed variation as well.

In short, without name recognition, a VP doesn't help.  But how much they help once there is name recognition begins to depend on other factors.

Finally, Edwards consistently helped Obama better than Huckabee helped McCain.  So, he really did more than just show up.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Not very convinved (0.00 / 0)
he above analysis was based on the SUSA polls taken in May.  The older of these are now almost a month old, and it is obvious that Obama's campaign has hit the ground running, while McCain is still visibly fumbling.  In all probability, Obama has already gained significantly among the Democratic base since the earliest--if not all--of these polls were taken.

I can't be sure, but I suspect Edwards helped the most in solidifying the base.  But those are exactly the same people whom Obama has picked up in his unity bounce.

While you have made a good case for why Edwards would help Obama more than he helped Kerry based on a reinforcement argument, I don't think polls do it.  I suspect Kerry saw similar polls four years ago.

(Yea, I rebutting lots of data with two "I suspects", but I suspect I'm correct nonetheless.)


You're Just Going On Supposition (0.00 / 0)
And bad supposition, at that.  The average total swing under Obama vs. McCain is 22.6%.  With Edwards on the ticket, it's just 8%--a gain of over 14 points.

Obama had a nice unity bounce.  But it wasn't 14 points.

In short, it's a safe bet that Edwards' impact today would be down from what SUSA showed a month ago.  But it's an even safer bet that the impact would still be there.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Bounce vs Swing (0.00 / 0)
I don't think you can compare the bounce VP-less Obama got versus the swing which is based largely on how some VP candidates lowered Obama in the polls.  For example, if they added Obama/Hitler to the poll the swing would have increased dramatically despite the fact nothing changed in the value of adding Edwards.

If you compare the boost Edwards gave Obama to the generic VP-less matchup the numbers are more in line.

I'm not trying to blast the usefulness of your swing analysis; I think it does a good job measuring soft support -- and obviously Hitler ain't on the VP list.  But I don't think swing and bounce can meaningfully be directly compared.

Also, as stated above, it appears Clinton and Gore receive similar results leading to the conclusion that name recognition dominates this survey.  Other factors may be involved, but to a far lessor extent.

But in the real world, when a VP actually gets announced, the name recognition instantly shoots up.  Say my personal favorite General Clark is selected.  Instantly everyone learns about the General Obama choose and polls instantly changed based on that reality, not based on what polls say now.

(I'm not saying polls would jump up with Clark, I'm just saying this doesn't provide that kind of information.)


[ Parent ]
Missing The Big Picture (0.00 / 0)
Silly me!  I thought the case for Edwards had been made enough times, in enough detail that I wouldn't get bogged down in this same old discussion.  I specifically tried to focus on the broader utility of this analysis.

Such a fool!

Let's just step back a moment, forget the name of the candidate, and look at the big picture numbers.  Specifically, let's look at the possibility of losing states--the worst case scenario.  With Obama alone, there is some scenario that had him possibly losing New York state by 1%.  Now, no one seriously expects that to happen.  But is an indicator of general softness that cannot be counted on to go away everywhere without the expenditure of campaign effort.  But with some guy (Zaphod Beeblebrox?) on the ticket, the worst case scenario has Obama winning every state in the 15 surveyed, except for Kansas and Nebraska.

This is the main point here. That, and the fact that it's not a matter of speculation.  It's a matter of hard data.

That's a very high bar for an untested VP candidate to reach.  Do I think that Gore and Clinton, for example, could reach it?  Generally, yes--though I think that Clinton would likely fall short in some places.  But I've already pointed out the problems with a Clinton candidacy.  And Gore has not only ruled himself out, he has a clear reason why he is doing it--a reason as clear as the reason why Edwards should be persuaded to reverse himself.

Beyond that, who else is there?

But I don't think swing and bounce can meaningfully be directly compared.

Why not?  You yourself refuted your Hitler-on-the-ticket argument, such as it was.

The most intuitively obvious way to think about bounce and swing is that swing measures those who already know they are persuadable--and these are the prime targets for being moved by any particular bounce.  If one gets a bounce and it lasts, then that eventually can be considered to reduce the swing.  I am actually being overly generous to my potential critics by saying that Obama's bounce may well have substantially reduced the swing, as it was measured by SUSA in May.

You are actually making the opposite claim--that somehow the bounce of the moment is more substantial and enduring than the pre-existing swing.  This is a deeply counter-intuitive claim--but still it could be true.  We just don't have the date to know.  But then you are saying something even more--which is that this theoretical reduction in swing understates the significance of the bounce.

This is beyond counter-intuitive, and borders on the intellectually incoherent.  I can't for the life of me how one makes a theoretical argument for this, but I'm open to the possibility that one could be made--particularly since I know you're a pretty sober thinker.  I just haven't heard said argument yet.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Reinforcement vs Swing Arguements (0.00 / 0)
First, let me say I found the argements for Edwards as a reinforcing pick fairly convinving, so my arguement here only deals with how to interpret the Obama + VP data.

Second, let me defend the Hitler reference for a moment, as I know internet types tend to roll their eyes the moment the name comes out.  In physics, one often examines an equation or theory by looking at the extreme conditions.  If you set a veriable to 0, infinity or negative infinity, what happens?  If say a probablity goes above 1.0 or below 0.0, you have a problem.  So tossing in the Hitler VP was just a way to examine what the numbers might mean.

Ok, back to your analysis.  I do agree that the swing numbers give a reasonable feel for the size of the soft vote.  But I have three problems taking the results of individual VP candidates too seriously for three reason, all of which has already been brought up.  You've argued against each of these, but I still think they are problems:

1) Timing.  These polls all came pre-unity while a heafty percentage of the Democratic electorate was still mad at Obama and the primary.  The unity is not over yet, but soon we'll have a better idea of how much of the swing vote is really in play.

2) Name recognistion.  Everybody brings this up so no reason to go around on it again.  I don't think you give this enough credit, particularly when compared to...

3) Post VP selection effect.  Actually nominating a VP is very different than asking about a VP over the phone in a servey.  The only way to accurately estimate the effect of a VP choice is to run it by focus groups.

[BTW, this is posted from a friend's PC, so I don't have my Mac's spell checker.  Odds are, everything is mispelled.  Sorry about that.]


[ Parent ]
No Pass (0.00 / 0)
First off, I know all about extreme conditions, so I don't have a problem with that, per se as a theoretical possibility.  But it's just clearly inapplicable in this case, so my problem is that it's a red herring.

Second, the timing argument is valid, but impossible to fully quantify, and it is mitigated by the fact that Obama is such a new face that he's much more vulnerable to continued softness of support.  To the extent that we can quantify, the bounce is far less than the amount that Edwards adds to basic support.

Third, on name recognition--if we had the bench we had in the 1960s, this would be a much different argument.  But people with high name recognition and high approval who've been in the trenches for a while just don't grow on trees anymore.  It's not name recognition alone we are talking about here.  It's name recognition plus, and that plus has not been tested on anyone else but Edwards.

Anyone else is a pig in a poke.  If Edwards were mediocre, or if we knew we had our pick of several other prize porkers, then it would be completely different.

Fourth, nominating a VP doesn't give them an instant history of familiarity with the voters, and it doesn't give them an independent source of credibility and goodwill they can bring to the ticket.  Everything that an unknown might be able to acquire will come at the cost of exposure time that John Edwards could be using to build up Obama, instead of himself.

Fifth, yeah, you mis-spelled "VP" and "PC".

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Good points (0.00 / 0)
Those are all good points.  Still, your poll-based points seem to me to be of the typical Clinton DLC philosophy of polling for popularity.  People claim they like X, Y and Z so lets say we are for X, Y and Z.  I hope we are more sophisticated now and understand that how something polls right now not accurately predict how people will react going forward.  As someone once said, it isn't what you say about the issues, it is what they say about you.

Answering a pollster on the phone is very different than making a real decision.  If it something they already have an opinion on, great.  But if it is something they haven't really thought of before, they react differently.

I don't know this for a fact, but I believe Kerry choose Edwards because he polled well.  But Edwards did nothing to demonstrate why we should vote for Kerry.

Now, to repeat myself, I found you previous arguments on how Edwards supports Obama thematically very convincing.  We do have good reason to believe Edwards can demonstrate why we should vote for Obama.  As supplemental information, this polling data is nice.  If the polling data said the opposite, for example, we'd want to at least think about it more carefully.

Overall I'm not protesting quite as much as it may appear -- the internet tends amplify each thought.  But I still think you are pushing further on this specific post than is reasonable, reading in more than is there.


[ Parent ]
You Forgot To Mention That I Snore (0.00 / 0)
Your arguments are getting harder to refute because they're getting increasingly amorphous.  Have you been hanging out with Republicans this weekend?  Even using personal attacks, comparing me to the DLC!

No, seriously.  You can't have it all four ways.  You can't separate my poll-based arguments from their theoretical foundations.  And if you do try to do that, you can't then attack me for alleged problems that are common to all polls.

Still, your poll-based points seem to me to be of the typical Clinton DLC philosophy of polling for popularity.  People claim they like X, Y and Z so lets say we are for X, Y and Z.

This is the exact opposite of where I'm coming from. My argument is--and always has been--that we move the center toward us, rather than us moving toward the center.  How do we do that?  Chris laid this out back in 2004, when he argued that we needed to wed the existing liberal tradition (including all the recent stuff like gay rights) to a reform agenda.  He argued that the GOP had taken on the mantel of reform in the 1990s, and this provided them with their bare majority, but that it was a much better fit with liberalism than with conservatism and we ought to claim it for ourselves.  In doing so, we would then pull the center toward us.

The key here is that it combines a traditional liberal orientation for empowering those on the bottom with a reformist orientation for empowering those on the outside.  Well, that's what Dean had already begun, and it's what Obama's campaign has done to an even greater extent.  Only it's done it in a somewhat abstract and cerebral manner--in part because if he were more emotional and gut-level passionate he would run the risk of pushing "angry black man" buttons.

There's a downside to this, however, and that's that the Democratic base doesn't fully trust him as much as they should.  And it's Edwards who restores this trust, and restores the balance to the plan for shifting power toward us that Chris laid out 3 1/2 years ago.

All of this is validated by the polls, to be sure.  That's the whole point of doing these data-intensive diaries.  But it's not driven by them.  It's driven by the logic that Chris laid out in the aftermath of the 2004 election.  What the polls do is that they show we're on the right track.

Specifically, they show that Edwards does a significantly better job of locking down the base, (though he also cuts the independent swing in half).  This is what's most needed to make Chris's strategy work in the current environment with Obama as the candidate.

I defy you to find anything in my diary that can be fairly characterized as "People claim they like X, Y and Z so lets say we are for X, Y and Z."  There simply isn't anything like that in my reasoning.  And, BTW, I have more than once cited Lakoff's exlanation of why that approach doesn't work--it's because it doesn't come from a grounding in values.  It's a shopping list approach, treating voters like customers.  This is yet another way of saying the same thing--I'm talking about clarifying our values and basing our politics squarely on them... not about marketing ourselves like a product.

Answering a pollster on the phone is very different than making a real decision.  If it something they already have an opinion on, great.  But if it is something they haven't really thought of before, they react differently.

So?

(1) To the extent this is true, it's true of all polls.

(2) But, again, my fundamental argument is not based on polls, it is confirmed and supported by them.

(3) What people are sure of is their significantly greater support for Obama with Edwards on the ticket.  The people that react differently?  Well, those are the ones who make up the swing!

Like I said, so?

I don't know this for a fact, but I believe Kerry choose Edwards because he polled well.  But Edwards did nothing to demonstrate why we should vote for Kerry.

Edwards did what Kerry told him to do. And Kerry told him to do what Bob Shrum and Joke Line told him to do.  It's just plain ludicrous to blame Edwards for that.  Go watch Edwards' endorsement of Obama on YouTube again, and tell me that there was anything like that in the 2004 campaign.

I still think you are pushing further on this specific post than is reasonable, reading in more than is there.

And I think you are projecting, my friend.  Because all of your arguments hew much more to your gut than to anything out in the real world.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
And Edwards now says he would consider 2nd VP candidacy! (0.00 / 0)
Well, This Changes Everything (0.00 / 0)
Obviously Edwards makes it a much easier race for Obama to win.  And he does all the good stuff that a reinforcing candidate should.

The fact that he would consider, if asked, and the compelling reasons why he should run means that there is now a realistic possibility--not saying how big it is.  But it's there.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Your arguments are fine (0.00 / 0)
The problem is that you have an audience -- ie mydd and talk left, to name two, or Daily Kos, to name another, who aren't all that super progressive. They are Democrats. I am learning the hard way this isn't the same thing. Your problem is breaking the CW that they are trying to create as a narrative, ie, "it must be Clinton because of x,y, z." It must be Sebelius because she's from Kansas (never mind there's not a snowballs chance, and she actually polls bad, even in her own state for the job).

My point is that this is not about cogent arguments. This is about narrative and belief.  Read the following, and tell me this isn't about narrative:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008...

Does it remotely resemble reality in 2008? No. Does it matter? Not really- becuase the point is to sow doubt rather than come up with the best team.

For the record, I find your arguments compelling, but there are others such as Clark who are also strong. I am less into Sebelius (because I have yet to hear a reason for her other than vague CW from people who simply are triangulating even while thinking they aren't), Webb (whom I like but comes with the sexist moniker to his name) and then a pile of conservative Democrats.

I am actually not per se against Clinton, but I do find her online surrogate sites like mydd and talk left so heavy handed in their black mail that it reminds me of why having her on the ticket would be more troulbe than its wroth.


That's Part Of It, I'm Sure (0.00 / 0)
But there's also other elements involved, too, which at least appear to be distinct, but convergent factors, at least from where I stand.  Some of it's just repeating tired old Versailles CW.  Some is simply repeating stuff that sounds smart, or hip, or even snarky.

There is really no end to the number of forms that non-thought can take.

As for the blackmail, yeah, it's like, "Your actions are so loud, I can't hear your words."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Received CW (0.00 / 0)
Yes, I agree with this. It's like when Kos argued well Edwards is bad because the polling data shows he helps, but I believe it's because its name ID. My first thought it- assuming for the sake of argument Kos is correct- so what? How does this hurt Obama? How is this not a good thing to have a VP whom Obama will not need to introduce? How does this not help with branding? How do we know branding of any non-known quantity on the national stage will go so well? What about vetting? How does this hurt that? But, really all people want you to do is go- name ID=bad. Not think- wait but that argument doesn't make logical sense. There are reasons to say  no- but that's not o ne of them.

[ Parent ]
Well, In Fact (0.00 / 0)
I was originally going to do this diary last weekend, and title it, "Kos Is Wrong."  But too much was going on then, and by now it just seemed like a stale argument to make.

Wrong!  Bad ideas don't ever seem to die.  They're like bad bread that's 10% preservatives--an infinite shelf life.

It might be quite different if we had the kind of bench we had in the 1960s.  Then it might be quite feasible to find two or three other candidates who could do as well.  Obama could do private polling using the same sort of head-to-head methodology--he's got the money to burn on testing 15-20 of the most contested states--and then he could make a fully informed decision.

But today?  Who are those potential candidates?  I look around, and aside from George Clooney, Brad Pitt or Bruce Springstein, who could he possibly pick with that kind of name recognition and popularity?  (Unfortunately, Angelina Jolie, at 33, is still too young.)

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Since he likes sports perhaps an analogy from baseball will help (0.00 / 0)
Do you go with the star players or the guy from the farm team when you are trying to win a game? There maybe reasons to go with the farm team, but they had better be damn stronger than "I feel he maybe better" because "he's unknown and so we don't know how that guy will work out on the field yet." Any coach saying that I am sure would be fired with the owner saying " I feel you aren't the right coach to guide a multiple hundred million dollar team." The logic escapes me unless the issue isn't the player, but a separate agenda about how the player views playing the game.  

[ Parent ]
Right (0.00 / 0)
You go with the farm team prospect in spring training. Not the World Series.

Not unless someone breaks a leg.

"To everything, Turn! Turn! Turn! There is a season, Turn! Turn! Turn!"  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
PS (0.00 / 0)
I m not saying Kos is for Clinton as VP. More like for a conservative/centrist Democrat. Ia m learning to cut through the rhectoric, and read between the lines of what people support and whom they support to get an idea of who they really are and why. ie, Kos is concerned with Democrats and only that as he sees it. Idealogical shifts are not his concern. He disliked Edwards the minute Edwards became clearly someone about idealogical shifts. One of the things that wille ventually become an issue for the coalition that is the Democratic party are that some people really aren't trying to change DC. They simply want their people in versus the other crowd. Those are very different goals than what you have in mind here Paul.

Kos Has Been Quite Clear From Early On (0.00 / 0)
He's a former Republican, Latino army dude who's heavily into sports.  And he stated quite clearly a long, long time ago that Kos was not a liberal site, it was a partisan Democratic site.

There was not a lot of difference in the beginning, because at there were relatively few others aside from liberals who were willing to be full-throated partisan Democrats.  But Kos never identified himself as such.

So, really, this is not news to me.  But I realize it is news to many.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yeah I remember and knew all of that (0.00 / 0)
but vast swaths of his audience don't realize this. I remember him talking about the convergence of Democrats with economic libertarians. Others don't realize it because it doesn't fit into their groupthink and emotional needs.

I've gotten used to this realityh, but I do wish people were more critical of what they are being told. I think we sometimes are trading one set of faith based believers for a new set.

It's like when I point out that Obama is more likely to govern as a centrist and am attacked like I am saying something that's not easy to verify through his choice of advisors who listens to (right of center economists) , the way he engages arguments, etc.

Now, I am not saying he's going to be a bad president. I am not saying he's not going to be 100 times better than Mr 100 Years War. But I am saying that if someone thinks Obama=progressive really is selling themselves something that hasn't been shown to be the case so far.

Can he suprises us? Sure. Does his record show a reason to believe we are getting Clinton 2.0 without the baggage of teh 1990s? Yes.

I mean look at what he said with AIPAC to me if that was not a version of the Clinton-SIster Soluja strategy of I am going to prove my moderate / conservative bona fides by going to the right, then i don't know what is. But to say this to someone is to be attacked.  


[ Parent ]
Well, He's Also Less Embedded (0.00 / 0)
and he may be forced in a more progressive direction to a greater degree than we now expect.  So he could certainly turn out to be more progressive than I expect, and I wouldn't be too surprised.

But I really see him as very much a process guy, and not a groundbreaking substance guy.  The groundbreaking substance may come, but it will have to be thrust upon him.  Anyone who things it's going to come from him has just not been paying attention.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
In arguing with someone over at Ezra Klein's site (0.00 / 0)
I believe your argument that people confuse process without substance is what's happening here. It's the politics of lowered expectations. The hype when you get passed it with a lot of them is that they think he will be competent. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for I think he will produce legislation that will help American lives.  

[ Parent ]
The Really Odd Thing (0.00 / 0)
has been the way that people get all hyperbolic about what a dramatic change he can bring.  And then you ask about something like universal health care, or even just withdrawing troops from Iraq, and suddenly it's like you've switched from Masterpiece Theater to the Home Shopping Network, because it's not just the rules that have changed, it's the whole fricken game.

"Oh, no! He could never do that!"

"Well, I thought you said he was transformative?  And a leader?  A transformative leader, right?"

Well, like Mal Reynolds would say on Firefly, "Not so much."

I think the level of expectation is set by a "change your life" TV infomercial.  Whereas, I lean more toward the Lloyd Garrison/Frederick Douglass/WEB DuBois/Soujourner Truth side of things.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Yeah- my friend calls it the Oprahification of discourse (0.00 / 0)
Change is meant in a self help book sort of way rather than political. He's our nominee. i will support him, but I have my doubts about the ability to get anything substantively done. I used to have a teacher say what does it matter why they support you as long as they do. Now, I can answer her it makes a big different with regard to what gets done.

[ Parent ]
ps (0.00 / 0)
competent here means- well, he won't get more of us killed in unnecessary wars, the merican people are just anti- conservative, not progressive, etc. so thi sis the best we can get. competent here is lowered expectations that sounds very much like clinton 1992 retread, but since they have cognitive dissonance they won't admit thats what they are saying and doing.

[ Parent ]
Donate to Open Left








Friends of the Earth thanks the OpenLeft community for the ideas you generate and your contributions to the progressive movement.

As an anti-spam measure, there is a 24-hour waiting period after registering before new users can comment.
blog advertising is good for you
blog advertising is good for you
SEARCH

   

Advanced Search