FISA Cloture Vote, 80-15 For Immunity

by: Matt Stoller

Wed Jun 25, 2008 at 19:39


Roll call is here.

And Obama's statement is as follows.

"The bill has changed. So I don't think the security threats have changed, I think the security threats are similar. My view on FISA has always been that the issue of the phone companies per se is not one that overrides the security interests of the American people."
Matt Stoller :: FISA Cloture Vote, 80-15 For Immunity

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FISA Cloture Vote, 80-15 For Immunity | 84 comments
Great. (0.00 / 0)
That's just fucking great.
new boss same as the old boss (4.00 / 2)
fear mongering bullshit. name one terrorist they have caught with FISA ever! name one terrorist they have brought to trial. name one act of terrorism thwarted.

Obama - kiss or your mystique goodbye. the party is over. don't cry to us when you notice unity means nothing when you have no base.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
McCaskill (0.00 / 0)
I thought Claire McCaskill D-MO was on our team, not.  I called her office this morning and the aid said the Senator had no stand yet, and then cheerfully asked me what I thought.  

Well, I told her my views and now I see the real deal.  I will make it my life's work (besides selling affordable custom kitchen cabinets and countertops) to unseat McCaskill, forget Kit Bond, only an act of a God can get him out of office.

Bond's vulnerable (4.00 / 1)
He's a lazy campaigner, and he would have lost had he not faced two extremely weak opponents in Farmer and Nixon.  Primarying McCaskill is perhaps a worthwhile task, though.  Who would you put up, though, Robin Carnahan?
[ Parent ]
McCaskill NOT on the side of "We the People" (0.00 / 0)
I have communicated with Claire's office on multiple occasions, and she is in the tank with current Dem leadership on everything that is important to me.

Dam'n right we will find a way to primary her, and Kit Bond. He is less than you think he is, and he comes up much sooner.

And also, Emmanuel Cleaver, my guy from KC, showed how corrupt he could be. I talked to his office 3 months ago on this, and he was "no retroactive immunity" and now he is taking telecom $$$ and pitching "We the People" over the side.

Primary all of them. The ones who prove themselves not only to be whores, but cheap whores.  Look over the Maplight stuff from yesterday. To sell out on "We the People" for a mere 30 pieces of silver is so much bullshit. I cannot believe how they can be bought so cheaply, but forget to "buy" the votes of "We the People". Votes have consequences.

Never a dime for these backstabbing whores again. No votes, No money, and active participation for their opponents.

[ Parent ]
That's really a vile (4.00 / 8)
statement from Obama, on about five levels.

Too bad the primary wasn't still going on: then we could comfort ourselves by saying, Yeah, but Hillary didn't show up, either.

I guess Biden and Sherrod Brown just hurt their chances at VP by voting the right way.

Meet the New Boss, Same as the Old Boss. (4.00 / 5)

I don't agree with Obama on this BUT (0.00 / 0)
He is NOT the same as the old boss that is a wingnut taling point!
[ Parent ]
old boss = Bill Clinton (4.00 / 2)

[ Parent ]
As in, the democrats haven't changed track, and are still out to pander to the 'center' (4.00 / 1)
or Reagan Democrats or whatever the hell you call them.  Obama comes from the tradition of Clinton, Daschle and Reid.  He's not going to transform the way the party functions at all, beyond replacing the old guard of people loyal to the clintons with a new guard of people loyal to him.
[ Parent ]
Assuming that this is a centrist pander or tack (4.00 / 1)
to help win the election and win over centrist Dems, and not representative of his true beliefs and intentions. I still stand by my support for him because I think that the alternatives were either worse, no better, or would have lost to the GOP candidate. I always knew that he was a politician first and foremore. But I didn't expect him to do this so fast. I mean, it's like "Thanks for the support guys, not kindly fuck off while I go play with my cool new friends".

The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)
[ Parent ]
Well, yeah (4.00 / 2)
he's obviously better than McCain, who would be a disaster.  But he's not a transformative politician who will forever change the way that we look at politics by cutting out the special interests or whatever.  

But this transformation in him was clearly going to happen all along, which is why it was so frustrating hearing the above descriptions of him during the primaries, with the accusation that people on my side just didn't 'get it'.

[ Parent ]
I fully expected him to tack to the center in the general (4.00 / 2)
But not this far, this fast, this across the board. Either he's trying to cover up every possible perceived weakness that he thinks the GOP might try to attack, or else this is the real Obama. If it's the former, then the extent that he's doing this reveals a cynicism, calculation and hypercaution that I never saw in him. And if it's the latter, wow, just wow. Most likely it's somewhere in-between, but where along that spectrum? We might not find out until he's in office, and find ourselves surprised at every turn (whether pleasantly or not).

My fundamental take on him all along still stands--a promising and talented cipher, who was probably our best bet this cycle, to both win the presidency, and do good as president. But not the Democratic "messiah" that some made him out to be. Puhleese.

The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)

[ Parent ]
This Is NOT "Tacking To The Center"--It's LUNGING To The Right (4.00 / 6)
The majority of Americans do not support Telco immunity.  Ergo, this move is substantially to the right of center.

It doesn't get much more clear-cut than that.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
No need to SCREAM, Paul, I get it (0.00 / 0)
As I wrote elsewhere just now (can't remember if it was here, Digby or DKos), he is now, on a whole host of issues, decidedly to the RIGHT of the country's ideological and policy midpoint. He also came out against today's SCOTUS ruling that held that the death penalty was excessive punishment for child rapists. He's more conservative on the death penalty than Anthony Kennedy!

I have no idea what to think right now. Have we just nominated the biggest bullshit artist ever to have a serious shot at becoming president, and if so, who's he most bullshitting, the right, center or left--or the whole freaking country?!? I literally have no idea what to expect from him now if he wins, so much of a cipher is he. It's like we're electing the American Putin.

Is this what post-partisan means? I.e. power without ideology, for its own sake?

Now I understand why Feingold refused to endorse.

Wait till he picks his VP. It might surpise us all (Hagel? Bloomberg?).

The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)

[ Parent ]
Bloomberg (0.00 / 0)
please, don't make me barf. i've 7 years of that nonsense already.

and keep up the screaming, a sell out this deep, this early, with no political advantage is insane.  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
He wasn't bullshitting (0.00 / 0)
he refused to say anything with any substance, which enabled everyone to project whatever they wanted to on top of his happy "hope and change" message.  Bill Clinton did the same thing in 1992, and Jimmy Carter did the same thing in 1976.  And there were people screaming that they'd seen this movie and knew what happens.  

Seriously, you can look at one of those old skits from Saturday Night Live where Dan Aykroyd was making fun of Carter in 1976, and almost map the humor directly to today (once you do something about Ford).

[ Parent ]
Robert Kennedy (0.00 / 0)
I was watching some boring Robert Kennedy campaign trail video on PBS or CSPAN or something the other night. It sounded like Obama had lifted his entire "get past the partisan bickering" and "Washington isn't serving the people" and "bring change to Washington" stump speech directly from RFK. I mean, the real problem here is that we simply don't live long enough to get to relive this bs over and over.

I will say that i do think Obama has plenty of substance on some issues. but its true, running a reform campaign is not very new.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
I will not be crucified... (0.00 / 0)
on a cross of bullshit boilerplate talking points of gold...

Especially when prosperity is right around the corner, along with a chicken in every pot...

The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)

[ Parent ]
Senate is useless (0.00 / 0)
The level of ambition and pander in the Senate is just too high at this moment in history to count on them.  The vote for war in Iraq, after all, was 50-50 anong Senate Democrats but overwhelmingly against in the House.

If that's the case, the key figure is another guy who wants it too much: Steny Hoyer.  He distributes $2 million in corporate cash and somehow it counts more than 10  times the amount from small donors and MoveOn.  Slice him from leadership and all of a sudden, the House does its proper job of standing up for the people.  

[ Parent ]
thanks for the explanation n/t (4.00 / 2)

[ Parent ]
Ugh (3.20 / 5)
What a horribly weak, lame statement on the matter.
Ugh indeed. (4.00 / 2)
Not only was Obama's statement weak and lame, it was pure b-llshit.
Brothers and sisters - our nominee is b-llsh-tting us to our pathetic little faces.
[ Parent ]
So if we primaried all Senate D's who voted for immunity (4.00 / 2)
Some would become Senators. But others would lose to Rethugs. So that would eventually lead us back into the wilderness.

But it is distressing that only 15 Senators, not including our Presidential candidate, really believes in civil liberties.

Sorry, I just have no good answers at the moment.

Six-year cycles... (4.00 / 1)
So that would eventually lead us back into the wilderness.

Not necessarily.  In 2010, only 15 Democratic-held seats will be running for election.  Six of those Democrats voted against cloture.  So, we'd only have to primary nine Democrats in 2010.  Out of those nine, some of them are in safe enough states that we need not fear losing their seats to Republicans.  Our majority will be sizable enough that we can risk sacrificing a couple of the other seats if necessary and still keep 51 votes.  

But if we're successful and primary-out some of these FISA traitors, it's quite possible that the message we send would be potent enough that we wouldn't have to primary out our Democrats in 2012.

I can dream, anyway.

[ Parent ]
Have to have a margin for 2012 (4.00 / 1)
I appreciate the info on 2010, but in 2012, it's going to be hard to hold all 24 D seats in that cycle.

And while we could get to 60 this year, it's supposed to be a lock in 2010. It won't be a lock if we start primarying Senate D's that year.

Without 60 D Senators some time during a prospective Obama Presidency, I don't see much happening in terms of real progressive economic legislation. And I think more "blue dog" D Senators are with us on economic issues.

Finally, I'd estimate that we'd need at least 55 going into 2012 to hold the Senate through a prospective second term for Obama.

[ Parent ]
Wake Up And Smell The Cyanide (4.00 / 2)
Without 60 D Senators some time during a prospective Obama Presidency, I don't see much happening in terms of real progressive economic legislation.

This vote is telling that even with 60 D Senators you aren't going to see jack shit.

You have to make them more afraid of you than anyone else.

Period.


"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
Indeed. (0.00 / 0)
Time to stop putting energy into supporting Obama and start putting all that energy to undermine the Bush Dogs and hopefully primary the Klepto-crats out.

Obama will take care of himself, especially with his new corporate friends to help him out. And yes, I'm sure the company checks are pouring in now.

"In our country, the lie has become not just a moral category but a pillar of the State" -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

[ Parent ]
We'll get more legislation passed with 55 real democrats (4.00 / 2)
than we would with 45 Democrats, 6 LieberDems, and 10 Dixiecrats.

Across the board primary challenges are probably a bad idea, but a few targeted ones can go a long way, and if it means losing the odd seat, then it'll depend on whose seat it is we're losing, and who the replacement might be.

[ Parent ]
Even old Dixiecrats were economic progressives (0.00 / 0)
First, I appreciate the push for the best - possible - Democrat in every seat. But we're not going to have Ted Kennedy liberals - or even Hillary Clinton moderates - in every Senate seat in the country.

But even as the Dixiecrats of the Jim Crow era were worse than awful on basic Civil Rights legislation -

They were still progressives on economic issues. I have hopes that people like Ronnie Musgrove will be an economic progressive if he takes the Mississppi Senate seat. If he were to win this year, primarying him in 2014 would probably be a waste, even though he'd probably be a social dinasour in the Senate.

[ Parent ]
Yes we can't. (4.00 / 4)
:(
Yes the Telecoms Can (4.00 / 1)
And I am a BIG Obama supporter. :(

We won the Battle. Now the Real Fight for Change Begins. Join MoveOn.org and fight for progressive change.  
[ Parent ]
...or... (4.00 / 3)
"Can we hear you now?  Good."
[ Parent ]
Or (4.00 / 1)
The Telecoms have our number now!

We won the Battle. Now the Real Fight for Change Begins. Join MoveOn.org and fight for progressive change.  
[ Parent ]
Anyone want to explain why McCain was unable to vote? (4.00 / 1)
You would think that voting for FISA would help build support among the conservative base and help reinforce his image as being "tough on terrorism".

Was he on the straight talk express or something?  

immunity (0.00 / 1)
did any of you ever think that the reason hrc, mccain & barack all voted present is because they want to be able to do what bush did? while i'm at it 5 people voted present, 4 have been presidential candidates, 1 has been a kleagle for the KKK. not sayin nothin now just askin, just askin. food for thought.
Huh? (4.00 / 2)
I'm pretty sure that Byrd and Kennedy weren't there due to health.
[ Parent ]
Out of line. (4.00 / 1)
That "kleagle" remark is way out of line.  

And you're saying that five senators "voted present"; that's not correct.  Five senators didn't vote, and (could someone verify this?) I believe Senator Kennedy was absent due to his ongoing cancer treatment, so lumping him in with the other four Senators is unfair to him.

[ Parent ]
This should serve as a wake up call (4.00 / 1)
While our short term goals require us to support these motherfuckers in order to stop the bleeding, we cannot take our eye off the only true antidote for our inherently corrupt government: Publicly Financed Elections

http://www.publicampaign.org/

Um... (0.00 / 0)
Obama kind of just killed that alternative. So long as skillful politicians can either round up lots of soft corporate money or charm the masses into contributing lots of small donations, there will be no public finance system. Something's going to have to collapse of its own weight and corruption before things get much better.

Obama just proved that, for whatever reasons he did this, he's an establishmentarian through and through. We can expect competence from him, but not progressivism. Kind of a less authoritarian version of Putin, to replace the incompetent and corrupt Yeltsin (Bush/McCain).

The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)

[ Parent ]
But Obama's take on FISA might just (4.00 / 1)
kill his small supporter dollars. As far as I go, with this stand, he will not get any more dollars from people who now realize he is not the chosen one.

And now that that shit can be easily recognized, many of us do not support his moving to the Republican right, and will make sure many people know about it.

No dollars for DNC, DCCC, or www.barackobama.com. None. Not one thin dime. Let his corporate owners fund him.

I am not sure he will even be better than shrub, if these are the kinds of decisions he makes. His past was there for you all to see, but all I heard was the message of change and "yes we can"

Stuff your hope where the sun don't shine Obama. I can't vote for you.

[ Parent ]
Let's keep a little perspective here (0.00 / 0)
Obama is not Russ Feingold or Paul Wellstone - more to the point, neither of them ever came close to winning the White House. He let us down today, but he still has a great opportunity to advance progressive causes. FDR was far from perfect, yet he still managed to permanently alter the direction of this country to the benefit of middle class working Americans.

Publicly Financed Campaigns on a national level will take a grassroots effort on par with the Civil Rights Movement. The elites who control the government and the media will not go quietly. The key is to keep hammering this concept in a non-partisan manner so that we convince middle class conservatives that they would be better served by (conservative) elected officials who aren't inherently controlled by big businesses.

This is not something we should expect the elites in Washington to help us with. It's on us to make this happen, and we need the all sides of the political non-establishment on our side.

[ Parent ]
Precisely (0.00 / 0)
Best shot in years.  No time to jump ship.  Get to the wheel.
[ Parent ]
At the very least (4.00 / 1)
he will be much more competent and sane than Bush, even if he was ideologically identicaly to him. Which, of course, he's not. That's just silly. This isn't an either/or, great/terrible situation. We're dealing with shades of gray, and Obama is revealing himself to be a lot closer to the other side than we'd hoped, and since he's likely to be our next president (which he'd still be vastly better at than McCain), it's just something that we're going to have to figure out ways of dealing with. Bush was an aberration, a largely failed experiment in pushing things too far to the right, too fast, and implemented incompetently. Obama appears to be a return to pre-Bush politics. I.e. not as bad, but not that good, either. The alternative to Bush isn't going to be the anti-Bush, but a "kinder, gentler" and more competent version of traditional politicians.

Meet the new boss, same as the old-old boss.

The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)

[ Parent ]
Those 15 (4.00 / 2)
I'm glad it wasn't just Feingold and Dodd at least.

Still there are some real disappointments among the 80.  Whitehouse.  Kloubochar, Stabenow, Murray, Akaka, Kohl, Reed, Levin, a few others.  Well, really all 80, but these ones I had expected better.  


Patty Murray for not-VP? (4.00 / 1)
Well, Chris, will this be enough to stop the incipient boom for Senator Patty Murray as the running mate?

I am much more enthusiastic about Sherrod Brown, though; to be amongst the 15 is a good place to be.

[ Parent ]
Weak, dishonest, calculating...or the unthinkable (0.00 / 0)
So, which one of these is Senator Cipher?

And please don't say "I told you so", because I'll still vote for him, seeing as the alternative is even more unthinkable. If we're going to have a weak, dishonest and/or calculating (or worse) president, I'd rather that he be reasonably smart and sane. The real question is here is what variety of backstabbing are we dealing here, the Clinton kind, or even worse?

The liberal soul shall be made fat. He who waters shall be watered also himself. (Proverbs 11:25)

Wow! (4.00 / 1)
What a disappointment.  More senators voted against the Iraq War during a period of time when it was considered treason to do so.... They stood up then, yet, they couldn't muster the "courage" to stand up now when there was absolutely no risk to do the right thing?

Something must be done... I don't know what, but this is a travesty... We managed to win delays, and then we just suddenly get steamrolled?  What have we, the democratic base, done so wrong this time around?

Whatever it is, we have to figure it out and figure it out fast... we can't let these bastards steamroll us again!

REID: Voting against us was never part of our arrangement!
SPECTER: I am altering the deal! Pray I don't alter it any further!
REID: This deal keeps getting worse all the time!

What We've Done Wrong Is Given Them Our Money (4.00 / 3)
We should be building our own independent infrastructure, and only give them money when they do tricks for us.

Tricks like impeaching the President and getting our troops out of Irag.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
lay it out (0.00 / 0)
how would that work and would money be managed. or is it just discipline on not funding the party itself. cherry picking easy pick off targets has always struck me as the wisest. I'm for efforts that demonstrate an intolerance for this sort of thing even in the face of the GOP. I'd rather hand a seat to the GOP to punish a sell out dem then settle for a sell out dem. I'd happily support giving up a few seats even this cycle to punish them.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare
[ Parent ]
The problem is (0.00 / 0)
Having a centrist democratic president is the condition of the possibility of successfully fighting for the kinds of social changes we want.

So you need the first to even start to fight for the second. But if you put all your eggs into the "president" basket without having independent structures to fight for the changes, you are inevitably going to get milquetoast.

--Aaron Schutz (Core Dilemmas of Community Organizing)

[ Parent ]
Or you could have a leftists democratic president (4.00 / 1)
Feingold did come this close to running this time dontchya know?
[ Parent ]
Can you explain further? .. (0.00 / 0)
Did he not run only because Obama was?
[ Parent ]
His stated reason was that he'd be more useful in the Senate. (0.00 / 0)
He put up a post at MyDD sometime around January 2007.  But had he run there would have been someone with both a credible voice and a clearly Progressive record.  Edwards had his conservative past, and Dodd came around too late.

Feingold would have changed that (though he would have had a lot of trouble getting media attention).

[ Parent ]
I know the official reason .. (0.00 / 0)
but I really wonder what the back story was .. was he worried about his faith being held against him? .. his two divorces? .. yeah .. with Obama running .. Feingold would have not gotten a lot of attention .. but what if the two biggest names were Clinton and Edwards(meaning the same group as ran .. just not Obama)?  would he have run then?  it would have been interesting to know
[ Parent ]
Easy pickings (4.00 / 1)
The problem with the American Left is that Obama feels free to make promises in he has no real intention of keeping.

He knows he'll back on his liberal pedestal next week, with Joe Klein now in his pocket.

It's a two-fer.  A real no-brainer.  Welcome to Obamaworld.

Obama accountability movement? (0.00 / 0)
Not so much. Chalk up a not present for mister Hope-n-Change.
Hate to tell you (0.00 / 0)
But your candidate Hillary Clinton also was counted as not-present.

You really can't have it both ways.

[ Parent ]
Dodd (4.00 / 4)
was the only one of the primary candidates showing any leadership on this issue. But I gotta give major props to Joe Biden. I wouldn't have expected him to be in there. Maria Cantwell also a pleasant surprise.
Biggest disappointments, after Obama, Whitehouse and Klobuchar. I thought they were better than that.
[ Parent ]
Whitehouse was a big surprise (4.00 / 3)

[ Parent ]
Yes you can (4.00 / 1)
help Chris Dodd retire his campaign debt

https://salsa.wiredforchange.c...

[ Parent ]
Only NJ & Vermont have two senators (0.00 / 0)
who respect the 4th Amendment.  Good for NJ & Vermont.  Boo to every other state that fielded at least one weasel.  
Twenty-three percent (4.00 / 2)

 That's what George W. Bush is polling. 23%.

 And the Democrats in the Senate couldn't wait to stand in line to kiss his ass one last time.

 To every senator and congressperson who voted for this travesty: May you all suffer horrific physical pain for the rest of your sad, sorry lives.

 

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn

Twenty-three percent (0.00 / 0)

 That's what George W. Bush is polling. 23%.

 And the Democrats in the Senate couldn't wait to stand in line to kiss his ass one last time.

 To every senator and congressperson who voted for this travesty: May you all suffer horrific physical pain for the rest of your sad, sorry lives.

 

"We judge ourselves by our ideals; others by their actions. It is a great convenience." -- Howard Zinn

Change we can believe in? Nah, business as usual (4.00 / 1)
What a lame and disheartening cave from Barack Obama.  The man is a constitutional scholar, yet went ahead and endorsed an evisceration of the 4th Amendment.

What an act of cowardice.

Sure, Change we can believe in! Cause you damn sure can't see it! (4.00 / 1)
Constitutional scholar.

Community activist.

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

"Who are you gonna trust?  Me, or your lyin' eyes?"

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
No surprise (4.00 / 1)
I never thought he was a progressive.  As Harvard Law myself, I know what "Editor in chief of the Harvard Law Review" means - that's about as establishment as it gets.  There are two things I know 1) Obama is to the left of McCain and Hillary Clinton on most issues; 2) Obama is simply not the hater that some of the other major candidates are.  He comes from a different place (I know, I know - so did Stalin).  I also see Obama as an FDR-like politician: not progressive, but willing to experiment when things are obviously not working.  Let's all take a reality break - at the current pace of life events are much more likely to violently push office holders than the converse.  If we can get a president who will simply not be criminally ignorant of what is happening around him that would be an improvement.  More, of course, would be better.  It is still hard for me not to feel like we are coming out of the night.    
No, FDR WAS a Progressive (4.00 / 1)
I've heard this rap so many times, and simply not true.  FDR was certainly not as progressive as his wife, but his record as NY Governor was that of an activist governor doing more to help those in need than anyone else in the country.

It's true that he was experimental, rather than ideological--but that's not the same as not being progressive.

Obama is demonstrably more conservative than FDR, and the sooner folks realize this, the better off we'll all be.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
FDR was a mixed bag (0.00 / 0)
and in any event the question is can we do better in the present environment and the answer is no.  Whatever else Obama is he is now quite plainly the person we must persuade. But I must say that I know enough about FDR to know that he had to be moved on almost every major issue.  He was much more a Thurman Arnold thinker than any kind of thinker that I would characterize as progressive.  (Where was he on Hitler and Mussolini in the mid-1930s, for example?)    
[ Parent ]
FDR Said He "Relished" The Hatred of "Economic Royalists" (0.00 / 0)
That's a million miles beyond anything Obama might even mumble in his sleep.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"
[ Parent ]
Perhaps (0.00 / 0)
...but with whom did FDR sup?  That very heady stuff turned into a very watery New Deal..(NLRA based on "industrial peace" rather than employee rights, for example).  Compromises, compromises...  That is why it has been so easily dismantled, n'est-ce pas?  As for Mr. Obama, he is coming from a lot farther away than the aristocratic Mr. Roosevelt, so, like it or not, this is new and we will have to see.  
[ Parent ]
Yes we can do better in the present environment (0.00 / 0)
but instead, we chose to focus on crying, and historical candidacies and former pastors, and forgot to make the candidates say anything.  

And WOW!  They feel indebted to the people who have actual demands to place upon candidates.

[ Parent ]
A grammatical point (0.00 / 0)
"We chose" and "forgot" are not the "present" environment - that's my point.
[ Parent ]
THINGS ALREADY ARE OBVIOUSLY NOT WORKING (0.00 / 0)
What the hell is it going to take for him to reject Bushism, and start 'experimenting'?  A unilateral nuclear attack on Uzbekistan?  Why does he feel the need to cave in to Bush?
[ Parent ]
I meant once he is elected (0.00 / 0)
He has to make it through the noise machine first.  It is still running things.
[ Parent ]
Give it up for Sherrod Brown (0.00 / 0)
He and Bernie Sanders (and sort of Bob Menendez) are the only freshmen who voted with Dodd, and he has to be the only one up there besides Frank Lautenberg to have any reason to be worrying about re-election.  Good for him.  He's not perfect (cf. climate change), but at least he has some guts.
LMAO, Liberally! (0.00 / 0)
When (if) I ever stop laughing, perhaps I'll be a little more sympathetic to the plight here.

In the meantime, when is it appropriate to say, "I told you so", because right now that's pretty much how I feel. You not only f***** all of US who didn't go along with you, you f***** progressive values because you sold out for this guy!
Yeah.

But, hey. What the hell do we know?

Well, I guess unity works in strange ways sometimes. Now we're all in the same effing boat. How do you like the unity so far?

mabelle55, I am with you on this... (0.00 / 0)

[ Parent ]
FISA Cloture Vote, 80-15 For Immunity | 84 comments
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