FISA: A Time To Sit In At Obama's Campaign Offices?

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 11:05


Many activists involved with the struggle to preserve our 4th Amendment rights and oppose the latest revisions to FISA were deeply disappointed by the substance of Obama's response, which contained a whole series of misleading arguments, as Glenn Greenwald documented here.

While some were ecstatic that Obama listened at all, others had a higher standard, and found the disingenuous arguments to be insulting to their intelligence, particularly given how fundamental the issues are, and how clearly Senator Obama had previously stated his intention to filibuster if telco immunity was part of the deal.

Although running to the right after the primary--and losing--is a time-honored tradition in the Democratic Party, many of Obama's supporters were expecting something more from him.  And when he spoke of reaching out and bringing people together, they did not envision the unifying cause to be the embracing of Bush/Cheney/Rove lawlessness.

Which brings up the question, what next?  One possibility is to up the pressure by sitting in at campaign offices this coming Monday.  If people are truly serious about there commitment to the rule of law, this is a logical next step.  Unlike other lawbreaking, civil disobedience upholds the law by willingly embracing the consequences of its actions in order to challenge injustice.

Some would argue that such a move would be highly damaging to Obama's campaign, but others might disagree.  It is still quite early in the general election campaign, and putting a stop now to such wrong-headed triangulation, directly violating his own word, could be doing him an enormous favor.  What's more, truly demonstrating his capacity to listen to the people and be persuaded--after 8 years of Bush/Cheney--could be the most powerful demonstration imagineable that the change talks about is actually real.

Furthermore, Obama himself has tacitly endorsed such a move, in the Presidential Debate sponsored by CNN and the Congressional Black Caucus Institute on January 21, 2008, in response to the last question asked:

Wolf Blitzer:If Dr. Martin Luther King were alive today, unfortunately, he's not, but if he were alive today, why do you think he would or why should he endorse you?

....

BLITZER: Senator?

OBAMA: Well, I don't think Dr. King would endorse any of us. I think what he would call upon the American people to do is to hold us accountable, and this goes to the core differences, I think, in this campaign.

I believe change does not happen from the top down. It happens from the bottom up. Dr. King understood that.

(APPLAUSE)

It was those women who were willing to walk instead of ride the bus, union workers who are willing to take on violence and intimidation to get the right to organize. It was women who decided, "I'm as smart as my husband. I'd better get the right to vote."

OBAMA: them arguing, mobilizing, agitating, and ultimately forcing elected officials to be accountable, I think that's the key.

So that has been a hallmark of my career, transparency and accountability, getting the American people involved. That's how we're going to bring about change. That's why I want to be president of the United States, to respect the power of the American people to bring about change.

Paul Rosenberg :: FISA: A Time To Sit In At Obama's Campaign Offices?
Obviously, the question of civil disobedience in this context is a very serious matter.  But so is passing this bill that constitutes a frontal assault on the rule of law.

I will posting a series of diaries this weekend seeking to gain a deeper understanding of how Obama has absorbed far more Reagan-era rightwing thinking than he--or most of the rest of us--realizes. Yet, he still gives lip-service to memory of Dr. Martin Luther King.  And so it behooves us to ask, in these circumstances, what would Martin do?


Tags: , , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Target McConnell's office (4.00 / 5)
Once upon a time Congressional Republicans would stand up to an out of control Republican President.  Where is the new Goldwater to march in to this new Nixon's office and tell him he's gone too far?  The GOP has largely gotten off scott free in its culpability for the current mess.

Don't you know!! ... (4.00 / 1)
they don't believe in holding a Republican president accountable .. the party has become about lawlessness .. and sucking at the public teet .. hell .. not many Democrats think holding the president is accountable either ... it's only the DFH position to hold people accountable

[ Parent ]
I should add .. (4.00 / 1)
of course come January 20, 2009, the Republicans and the TradMed will find religion re: accountability

[ Parent ]
Of course (0.00 / 0)
I have some thoughts on their upcoming epiphany over here.  And maybe if they started seeing some concrete examples (like protesters at their offices) of what abandoning oversight can lead to...they might have a thought about it before 1/20.

[ Parent ]
That Means We Should Have Done It THEN NOT NOW! (0.00 / 0)
The time for such a campaign was in January, when this issue was still in flux. Right now, everybody has staked out their position, and nobody is going to change their votes, no matter what we do.

The best thing we can do is win the election and begin a campaign in January to demand changes to the FISA bill and lobby President Obama to do it. Sit-ins will have more effect then because there will be a clean slate. It will be 2 years until the next election and no President Bush to attack them in the media for being "weak on 'terra.'"

Obama has said that he will inaugurate an executive review to determine "what changes" might be needed. Fine, then we take him at his word and demand comprehensive changes to the overall intelligence structure.

Even if this FISA bill were dropped the underlying FISA bill was so horrendous that it frankly makes little difference.

We are faced with the entire CONCEPT of data-mining. We have to fairly and squarely face the music. Either we must DEPRIVE our intelligence agencies of a "valued intelligence tool" because we simply don't trust them (with good reason) or we have to accept a total reversal of the 4th amendments' presumption of individualized particularized warrants BEFORE a search.

The entire data-mining approach is to treat EVERY communication as potentially suspect and copy the ENTIRE data-base of every single call, every single e-mail ever sent between 2 Americans anywhere in the world that our agencies can reach, and then using Super-computers to sift all this mountain of chaff for a needle of "terrorist conspirators."

We have to boldly say that we would rather take the risk and rely on ordinary person to person intelligence and prohibit data-mining operations entirely, at least when it comes to the domestic U.S.

In short we will have to reverse the decision after 9-11 that we have to give up more rights to be "safe." There will be a LOT of right-wing opposition to this and many people will fight us. But, if we want to have a bill of rights that means something we have to do it.

This fight is NOT the way to do it. The fight needs to be much broader and we need to start it in January and not in the context of this bill.  


[ Parent ]
why? (4.00 / 3)
Obama has said that he will inaugurate an executive review to determine "what changes" might be needed. Fine, then we take him at his word

He also promised to filibuster FISA. So why should we believe him? Should he become President he will have police state powers. Why should we believe he will just give them up?


[ Parent ]
because they believe, wrongly (imo), that (4.00 / 1)
once he get into office things will be different because they will be able to put pressure on him. It's a fantasy., but then so is so much of this.

[ Parent ]
telco money (0.00 / 0)
of course come January 20, 2009, the Republicans and the TradMed will find religion re: accountability

nayh, come Jan 20, 2009 that telco money will spend just as good.


[ Parent ]
You don't get it .. do you? .. (4.00 / 6)
Come January 20, 2009, the Republicans will be calling for every investigation under the sun .. that's why Obama moving "to the center" is so stupid .. as much as he tries to pander to them .. they'll try and drag him and his presidency through the mud as much as they can

[ Parent ]
Oh, No. They'll Never Do That! (4.00 / 3)
Look at how respectfully they treated Bill Clinton!

Why, they didn't impeach him for six years!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I realize that we should probably 'Move On' (4.00 / 2)
but sometimes if I think about the fact that Clinton got Impeached, actually impeached, over some personal promiscuity and that some 8 years later it's looking more and more like the crime syndicate currently running our country will get away with all of their crimes (so many)...  

It just makes me a little ill.

Should we start a new 'censure and move on' group to prepare for whatever the witch hunt finds in 2014?

seriously, ITMFA.

I'm glad it's done


[ Parent ]
Moving on... (4.00 / 1)
is the last thing we should do.

[ Parent ]
Speaking of Dr. King ... (4.00 / 4)
It seems Obama forgets one of the lessons of the Civil Rights Era .. and that people were spied on with no good reason(other than Hoover decided they were bad influences) .. that all sorts of liberals .. hippies and the like had their phones tapped .. spied on ... you name it .. the other thing is .. while one can wonder if he truly believes his most recent positions ... the longer it goes on and is internalizes them .. the more chance he actually comes to believe them .. which makes me worried

Obama's Multiple Confusions About The 60s (4.00 / 1)
are something I'm writing about in the series I'll start posting in a little while.

He seems to have a strangely bifrucated idea of what the 60s were like.  High nobility on the part of King and depraved hippies spitting on returning vets, or some such thing.  He doesn't seem to realize that the government spied on, and interefered with, everyone they could get their hands on.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
And this gets back to .. (4.00 / 3)
what Mimikatz says in the thread below ... listen to what Obama says .. no one had talked about the Petraeus/MoveOn.org thing in a few months now ... and he pulls that crap out of thin air to make a point .. why? .. and he talked about how veterans weren't respected when they came back from Vietnam .. where did that come from? .. it's all a bunch of bullshit .. I know it is the whole Rambo thing .. but did anyone ever pay attention to that movie? .. the dude was from a small town .. show me any DFH's in that town in the movie ... it's exactly the kind of town that Bush would win now(and that the last Dem that won there was LBJ) .. hell .. the sherriff was just the opposite of a DFH .. and he was the one who hated Rambo the most

[ Parent ]
The question was: (0.00 / 0)
"did anyone ever pay attention to that movie?"

If you're talking about "First Blood," the answer is: no, not until the advent of "Rambo" and video rental stores.  


[ Parent ]
if he had more skepticisim about the role of the government (0.00 / 0)
he probably wouldn't be running for president :)  unless he's really brilliant, which he has revealed himself not to be in the last few weeks :)

[ Parent ]
Obama Is No Longer the Target (4.00 / 5)
We support Obama over McCain, period.  Hurling invective at Obama only feeds the right wing media wolves.  Aim all that protest-energy at Senators and Congress -- those are the votes we need anyway.  Defeat Bush Dogs in primaries -- there's still time to oust Brian Baird in an August primary.  Push ALL Democratic Senators on the Feingold/Dodd and Bingaman Amendments.  

How is it hurting Obama? .. (4.00 / 3)
Do you want him to end up like Bill Clinton?  Passing a bunch of RW garbage(like DOMA)?

[ Parent ]
Why Target the Campaign? (4.00 / 1)
I'd much rather he end up like Bill Clinton than John Kerry.

Besides, Obama is backtracking on FISA in his capacity as a US Senator.  Why sit in at his campaign offices?  Target his Senate office, and target the Senate offices of other Dems who are backing the "compromise."   But lay off the campaign, this isn't a campaign thing, it's a Senate thing.


[ Parent ]
Except no one is covering his Senate office (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
Who Cares? (0.00 / 0)
If there weren't an election year running right now, we could still keep up the pressure.  Why threaten Obama's candidacy when A) his candidacy has nothing to do with his vote on FISA and B) we want his candidacy to succeed.  

[ Parent ]
huh? (4.00 / 3)
his candidacy has nothing to do with his vote on FISA

his votes in the senate have nothing to do with his campaign? huh?


[ Parent ]
It Doesn't (0.00 / 0)
Obama has a long history of backing BS "compromises" on important legislation (2005 Cheney Energy Bill, etc.).  He'd vote for this bill whether or not he were the nominee.  

Obama the Candidate is not proposing to abuse FISA this way, it's Obama the Senator who is backing some horrible "compromise" legislation.  This isn't a campaign issue, its an issue with him as Senator and would be whether or not this were an election year.

Let's target him in the capacity in which he's screwing us over, and that's his capacity as a sitting US Senator, not the Democratic nominee for President.


[ Parent ]
You Seem To Think He's Two Different People (4.00 / 3)
like Bob Arctor, the protagonist in A Scanner Darkly.

And we all know how that turned out.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
He's One Guy We Already Voted For (0.00 / 0)
And we voted for him well aware of his propensity for backing BS compromises on important legislation, his tendency to adopt Reagen-era frames, his his propensity for triangulation.  If we didn't see FISA coming, we were stupid.

But we got him as a candidate now, and I, at least, want to do whatever I can to elect him President, despite all those bad traits listed above.  I'm not going to target and effort I wholeheartedly support.

I will target him as a Senator, which is logical and necessary and which we would/should do whether or not he were the nominee.


[ Parent ]
I like how depending on the argument (4.00 / 5)
what peopel claim Obama is, and what they claim they were voting for shifts.  A few weeks ago, I could count on reading posts daily on here about how Obama is progressive and Clinton is a DLC centrist. Now, "we knew it all a long, and so should you" has become the order of the day. It's all very much Bushisms of 'for us or against' us (ie, the stuff about gettng him elected is the Chenney "mushroom cloud" statement from the 'left'). Look this time you will probably win with ABB (or is it ABM?) but still- I just don't get the underlying fearmongering and why it seems to work.  

[ Parent ]
In one way (4.00 / 1)
I want him to be like Bill Clinton:

I want him to be elected.

People seem to think he has already won.


[ Parent ]
We seem to think if he wins and do Bill Clinton we are (0.00 / 0)
going to just have another Bush after him because strategically that's what he would have  set up. How do you think Bush happened?

[ Parent ]
How Did Bush Happen? (4.00 / 2)
Monica Lewinsky and 5 votes on the Supreme Court.

[ Parent ]
Strategic environment versus tactical analysis (4.00 / 3)
You are describing events, but not strategic environment in which the conditions happened.  Gore lost the race. It shouldn't have even been close enough for the S Ct to matter after a somewhat sucessful economic, social and political environment. I don't begrudge the Clinton Presidency coming at the continued ascendency of Reaganism as it did, but I do question some of the trinagulation. I do now question Obama's desisions which are coming at the  decline of the Republican brand rather than it's ascendency.  It doesn't make strategic sense unless Paul's theory is right that they simply don't want to win a clear cut victory.

Such triangulation can revitalize the present version of the GOP just as the strategic approach lead to the birth of Bush. Remember if triangulaton is pegging one's answers according to being just a bit to the left of the rightward drift, Bush was a smart answer in that it was using that pegging to drift even further right.  It was close because of the underlying strategic environment that the Clinton Presidency had set about "how to do politics" followed by how Gore lose the race because he followed those same set of strategic rules. The strategic environment was triangulation. The same thing being advocated here.

The long term result of this will be be what many of you think- a revitalized party simply because its a premise based on a faulty set of facts about how the GOP will over the long term react to it. Frankly, I am surprised 4 years after 2004, I am still having to point out the definitional flaw in this strategy. Let me give you an example- Obama came out in support of Faith Based Initiatives this week. What happens when as will eventually happen, the GOP wins the Presidency after a President Obama? We saw what the Bush Presidency did with the DOJ , for example, packing it with Liberty University gradudates- what's to prevent this again if we accept the GOP's underlying thought process?

Much of what you say- Lewinsky and S Ct are tactical. They are "inf ront of you face now, and so you react" processes. If you think these things I am discussing are not deeply emotionaly- you would be wrong. The things I am describing are how marketers convince you to buy their products.


[ Parent ]
Gore won Florida popular, Gore won the popular national (4.00 / 2)
Al Gore won. The election was stolen. The loser of the election was inaugurated. There was a coup.

I should acknowledge initially misstating the results of the 2000 Florida election study by a media consortium led by The Miami Herald. Unlike a more definitive study by a larger consortium that included The New York Times, an analysis that showed Al Gore winning all statewide manual recounts, the earlier study showed him winning two out of three.

E-mail: krugman@nytimes.com



[ Parent ]
What part of it shouldn't have been close didn't you read? (4.00 / 2)
More than that, how does what you just wrote address my central thesis of why it was close? Or, for that matter, how will it address what I now am predicting will be a close race this fall, not because it had to be, but because Obama seems determined to run against the brand he built.

[ Parent ]
Of COURSE Obama's The Target (4.00 / 1)
Not the only target, to be sure.  But he's the Democrat's big kahuna, and the Democrats control Congress.

Do the math, as they say in the trade.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
No Need to Target the Campaign (0.00 / 0)
It's Obama the Senator who's screwing the country on FISA, not Obama the Democratic nominee for President.  Target his Senate office, not his campaign offices.

[ Parent ]
Don't Be Silly! (4.00 / 4)
You ALWAYS target the soft underbelly, unless your only purpose is to deceive your followers with a shadow play.

And that's what we're protesting against, remember?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
That's Just Vindictive (4.00 / 1)
There is no logical reason to attack the campaign unless you want to threaten him with the potential loss of support for the Presidency, and why would we want to do that?  We want him to be president.

What we don't want is for him to be a crappy Senator.  Obama has a history of backing crappy "compromises" while in the Senate (see: 2005 Cheney Energy Bill).  We knew that when we voted for him in the primary.  This move isn't about the general election, Obama would have made it as a regular sitting Senator.

Which is why we should target him in his capacity as Senator, to pressure him, as a Senator, to not backtrack on an important issue.  Why should we threaten the "soft underbelly" of his campaign?  His candidacy isn't the issue, and we want that candidacy to succeed, so why "target" it over anything?

This is a Senate issue, we want him to be a better Senator, we should hit him as a Senator.  Anything else is counter-productive vindictiveness.  


[ Parent ]
It's NOT Vindictive, It's EFFECTIVE (4.00 / 2)
I realize that Democrats have a hard time with the whole "effective" concept.  But trust me, it really is your friend.

You can read all about it in histories of the New Deal, for example.

Martin Luther King, Jr., too.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Effective At What? (4.00 / 2)
I want Obama to succeed in his efforts to become president, no matter what his views on FISA.  As such, I'm not going to "target" those efforts.  You don't try to hurt efforts you support.

I don't want Obama to succeed in his efforts at backing a crappy "compromise" on an important Senate bill.  As such, I'm happy to target those efforts.

Targeting something we don't want to hurt just to gain leverage in another battle is stupid and vindictive, essentially on the same level as the bad guys in the Die Hard movies who threaten McClane's family.  We don't want to be those guys.


[ Parent ]
Do you see what you do there? (0.00 / 0)
You set up a premise thatyou never prove. Ie, this will hurt obama's abiloity to win the presidency because someone is actively against him on this issue. and huh? on the last paragraph.

[ Parent ]
Why Target it if We Don't Want to Hurt It? (0.00 / 0)
What's the point of targeting his campaign if not to threaten his candidacy?  How else would targeting his campaign with a coordinated sit-in help us gain leverage were it not for the potentially damaging press that would come from it?

[ Parent ]
Are You Serious? (0.00 / 0)
What is the point of a sit-in?  What is the point of "targeting" his campaign?  Why attack the "soft underbelly"?  Why do it at all if it doesn't pose a threat to his candidacy?

[ Parent ]
To accomplish the goal on FISA (4.00 / 1)
by bringing it to further light. You are the one assuming it will destroy his campaign. That's your fear of what might happened, rather than what the goal of doing this would be. I don't even think a sit in would matter because I don't think it appeals to people, but the idea that because one does a sit in- therefore  one's goal must be to hurt Obama says a lot about the mentality here. Not everything is about Obama. i asked this else where- do you have a line in the sand that you won't cross? I m curious lately because I sense for some of you- the answer is no, there is no line so everything is campaign or personality. For a lot of people this issues isn't just an important one, but goes to the heart of why the Bush administration was evil in their lurch to destroy what makes our democracy our democracy. You can certainly try to minmize that as you do, but don't pretend when people act on their feelings that they are doing it for the reasons that your fear imagines. The for obama or against obama is your emotional frame. I am not even sure it would be the general public. If as you say, this is the "right decision by Obama" then they should applaud that he disagrees with his base. But i suspect that many of you know that people dont' agree with obama here. either way, i say huh? due to your assumption about motivation.

[ Parent ]
That is The Motivation (0.00 / 0)
I assumed the motivation was to threaten his campaign, and the guy proposing this sit-in agreed with me.  That's whole point of the potential sit-in.

I don't think it will "destroy" his campaign, I think it's efforts will be directed at hurting his campaign (as Paul says is the point) in order to gain leverage, and that, I think, is a counterproductive use of our political capital.  We want his campaign to succeed, so let's not actively try to hurt it.

This FISA BS isn't a campaign promise or campaign platform.  If Obama reversed his position of immediate withdrawal on Iraq, then yes, we take it to the campaign.  But this is a Senate issue, and as such we should target him (and the others) as Senators.


[ Parent ]
I can't argue with you (0.00 / 0)
Here's why- pretty much everything you write is justification and excuse without any underlying principles behind it.  

[ Parent ]
Fair Enough (0.00 / 0)
Probably for the best.

[ Parent ]
Because A Little Bit of Strategic Pain Right Now (4.00 / 3)
beats the pants off of a world of hurt tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
So Then We All Agree... (0.00 / 0)
It DOES pose a threat to hurt his campaign.  Let's all agree on that right now.

What I'm saying is it doesn't make sense to try to hurt something you support, especially when we have a very clear battleground (ie Obama's role in the US Senate) on which we can take this fight.  

I don't want to use empty threats against his candidacy to try to gain leverage against his actions as a Senator.


[ Parent ]
I agree you are afraid of that, but not that's the goal (0.00 / 0)
whether your fear is reality or not is another story. you can't seemingly parse teh difference.

[ Parent ]
I Don't Think It Will Hurt Him (0.00 / 0)
I don't fear it will hurt him, I don't actually think it will hurt him.  To be honest, I think it'll just make us look like a bunch of self-righteous SNCC wannabes, thus destroying our credibility in this fight, which is bad for us, not Obama.

But Paul just said above that the GOAL is to cause "strategic pain" because it will lead to good down the road.  I don't think it will lead to that good, and I think it's a complete misuse of our efforts on this issue.


[ Parent ]
Got It! (0.00 / 0)
I don't want to use empty threats against his candidacy to try to gain leverage against his actions as a Senator.

You are arguing about what you want.  So don't do it.

Simple.  Problem solved.

But that carries zero weight in terms of an argument that others should follow.  And the rest of what you're saying really doesn't get much beyond that.  Which is why it's so mind-numbingly repetitive.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The Point of Arguing (4.00 / 1)
Is to encourage people to agree with you.  I think we should all agree it's a misuse of our political capital, a misdirection of where we should be pointing our efforts.

To be clear, I don't think this will work, either in hurting his campaign or in pressuring him to change his vote.  I just think it's stupid to deliberately attempt to bring political "pain" to a campaign we all support.


[ Parent ]
then you really are just making shit up (4.00 / 1)
and I m not sure why someone would give such Orwellian b.s. a 4 but then I don't get much of what passes for critical thinking amongst Obama's more ardent supporters.

[ Parent ]
davisb (4.00 / 1)
I'm pretty much on your side on this but let me express my fear. There is always another political goal, like winning the next election, building a majority, changing public opinion, to excuse a politician's not acting on principle. This is a place where short term political pragmatism chafes at our democratic principles. So I can understand Paul's desire to do something now and stop rolling over.

My larger opinion is really based on the belief that Democrats should have be standing on principle all along, then it might be easier to do the right thing now--with less risk of damage. Obviously Progressives here are not to blame. I just think this requires a long term plan to change the people and culture of the Democratic Party.

That long view may help us not shoot ourselves in the foot right now.


[ Parent ]
You're Doing the Very Thing You Say We're Doing! (4.00 / 1)
Being effective means thinking strategically and about the big picture.  Democrats' history of ineffectiveness is all about fighting battles and losing wars.  In this case, the big picture "war" is winning the presidency.  If we hate the FISA compromise, and we surely do, then smart, effective Democrats will find a way to protest it, or even block it, without harming our chances of Obama's winning the presidency.

That means Obama's campaign headquarters is the last place you'd want to do the sit-in, not the first place.  After he is elected, we'll pressure the White House.  But for the moment, we have 99 better targets on FISA, and their votes count the same as Obama's.  

The right way to do this is to persuade so many other Senators that Obama's vote doesn't matter.  That's providing Obama with the political cover he needs.  Instead, the soft underbelly you are targeting is our own.


[ Parent ]
you make an assumption "losing the presidency" (4.00 / 2)
that's a) factually won as to why we lost the presidencies and b) has nothing to do with the points being made here. Do you think Kerry lost because fo the left?  Seriously? For that matter, do you think Obama's chances are such a house of cards that any dissent will knock it down? If so, he's already lost.

[ Parent ]
No, my assumption is that intent-to-harm may succeed (0.00 / 0)
The point is not that we will take him down, but that it might harm him.  It's a risk, and it's a risk of harm to us.  If there is another way to oppose FISA we should, and of course there is.

[ Parent ]
I see (0.00 / 0)
well, now I am very confused. if we aren't going to prevent him from winning the presidency (the only harm that matters), but instead 'harm' him (what does harm here mean to you ?)  , then what's the argument against doing this? afterall in that sort of construction any of the other things we could do could 'harm' him too.  to me, the harm is that he would have to address FISA in a more let say honest way. that's the kind of harm, that if it's not going to hurt his ability to win, i am okay with. You realy can't have it both ways.

[ Parent ]
I'll take it either way (0.00 / 0)
Whether it costs the presidency, or just diminishes his effectiveness and costs us a few down-ticket seats, we lose either way.  Making Obama the personification of every Congressional fight and attacking him instead of Congress is the wrong road.

[ Parent ]
Effectiveness to do what? (4.00 / 2)
Then you go on to throw out quite a few strawmen. Listen, I am kind of tired of arguing with others people's fears. I got tired of it during the Bush administration, and hve no interest in repeating the debate with people who think (and you only really think, not are) they are progressive or not conservative or whatever. Life is too short. You will spin whatyou are spinning and I accept that, but you can't control the rest of us with your fears. That's what this is about for me. So convince yourself ow ahtever it is you need to convince, and I hope otehrs do take up the fight without regard to those fears and allowing fear to control them.

[ Parent ]
Effectiveness to do what? (4.00 / 2)
Then you go on to throw out quite a few strawmen. Listen, I am kind of tired of arguing with others people's fears. I got tired of it during the Bush administration, and hve no interest in repeating the debate with people who think (and you only really think, not are) they are progressive or not conservative or whatever. Life is too short. You will spin whatyou are spinning and I accept that, but you can't control the rest of us with your fears. That's what this is about for me. So convince yourself ow ahtever it is you need to convince, and I hope otehrs do take up the fight without regard to those fears and allowing fear to control them.

[ Parent ]
That was worth saying twice! n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Not So Much (4.00 / 1)
Democrats' history of ineffectiveness is all about fighting battles and losing wars.

More like "avoiding battles and losing wars."

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
No, We Both Agree to Fight This Battle (0.00 / 0)
The question is who are we fighting against.  If you go after Obama on this, when 99 other Senators are equally implicated, aren't you really holding his presidency hostage?  And whose presidency is that really?

[ Parent ]
his point is that (4.00 / 1)
you made a mistatmenet of fact, and before you can fully move on, you need to realize why you did so.

[ Parent ]
No Then We Just Disagree (0.00 / 0)
I view the Democrats' history of in-fighting as fighting battles and losing wars.  "Avoiding battles" is not the historical problem, although it is the problem with the current congress.

[ Parent ]
You think the Democrats lost due to infigting? (0.00 / 0)
Present concrete recent examples (last 3 decades just to be fair) of how this occured. I am not going to argue with  opinion anymore. You need to concretely demonstrate how your position is indeed based on what factually occured. I willb e honest, you won't be able to make your argument. It's just based on emotions and branding. But, I won't give you a shot at trying.

[ Parent ]
We lost this years ago (0.00 / 0)
Obama's FISA flip-flop has tapped directly into my deep reservoir of cynicism about the Democratic Party. But now we have to live with him and help him to win. I guess. That is, more or less, what he said to us. "I'm doing this for political reasons right now and you have to suck it up and live with it, or let McCain win."

We have already lost this one and many other battles to preserve the Constitution and we lost it years ago. The telecom immunity like so many other issues is a losing proposition because Democrats have not stood up once to unconstitutional behavior over the past 8 years. They have not framed the debate as a question of the rule of law. They have not built a counter narrative to the terror versus the Constitution meme.

So now, it is a losing proposition to stand up and vainly fight against telecom immunity with virtually no chance of winning in the Senate or in the corporate media. Obama has been part of this acquiescent behavior among Democrats. We knew that was true when we voted for him, didn't we? This is a deep-seated cultural problem within the Democratic Party and it will take years to correct, if it is already not too late.

So here we are with no tools in our bag, only the choice to abandon the Constitution and suck it up for Obama, hoping that he will eventually rise above the political exigencies of the moment. Or, do a 'sit in' and deliver a P.R. weapon right into the hands of the Republicans and the media. That's like telling Obama--stand up for the Constitution or we will take you down with us.

Not a penny more to non-progressives including Obama.


passive aggression (4.00 / 3)
there is only so many times he can pull that vote for me or John McCain will kill the kittens stuff. He is floating the idea of keeping Gates, appointing other Republicans, back tracking on reproductive rights, back tracking on trade agreements, moving to the far right, at some point you just stop caring.

[ Parent ]
The way I see it (0.00 / 0)
that tactic expires right about November 5. After that it is totally on.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
After that its totally irrelivant (4.00 / 3)
because this deal is irreversible. further you're going to have zero leverage over Obama after the election; well until 2011 as he prepares for reelection when all the ScareDiDems will again poke their heads out to howl false fears that any criticism will cost him the election.

stop being afraid. leaders embody their constituency, scared week constituents get scared week leaders.  

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
You misunderstand (4.00 / 1)
I am all for holding Obama accountable, now. What I'm saying is, he won't have McCain to threaten us with come November 5.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Fight Now. (4.00 / 1)
He has little reason to listen to you now, and after November 5th, he will have no reason to listen to you.

Fight with your vote. Make him earn it.


[ Parent ]
This Is Silly (0.00 / 0)
It doesn't matter what the Dems have or haven't done.  The public is against this, despite the lack of effective Democratic messaging.

Your despair comes off to me as petulant self-indulgence.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Why then (4.00 / 1)
do you find it necessary to propose a sit in?

[ Parent ]
Huh? (4.00 / 2)
active versus passive action. Passively against, but not necessarily actively acting on it. Get it?

[ Parent ]
To Get Him To ACT On Behalf of the Majority, Obviously (4.00 / 2)
This ain't rocket science.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Sorry but (0.00 / 0)
It won't get him to act on behalf of the majority and that is my point. The majority will believe what ever they are told by the media to believe. The media can change public opinion in a moment. Your 'sit in' will not be portrayed as the people's uprising to save constitutional government in the United States. Not one bit. Obama will piss on your protest because he will have to. It sucks but it's true.

The time to set this up for a win has long since past and now we can only let it play out to see if Obama will restore the constitution--if he can win.  

Don't be naive.

I still love your posts.


[ Parent ]
Your Blanket Cynicism Flies In The Face Of The Facts (4.00 / 2)
I suppose it's supposed to be a refreshing alternative to having authoritarian belief fly in the face of the facts.  But that got old 30-40 years ago by my odometer.

And that was well before the days of the intertubes.

The M$M does not simply switch people's opinions from one state to another automatically.  Yes, there are some times that this works, but much more often the impact is more subtle--they simply don't talk about stuff, so it falls off the radar screen.

Sit-ins at campaign offices can put it right back on the radar screen, front and center.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
The MSM can change opinion fast (0.00 / 0)
when the cultural memes fit so perfectly into their framework. 'Sit it"? This will conjure up every prejudice embedded in conventional public opinion since the '60s. The MSM and the fascists will have a field day with it and Obama will drop 20 points in a month--all the while kicking progressives in the teeth.

That is why I say don't use this threat unless you are prepared to take the whole thing down with you. But, I have to admit I am tempted by the idea.


[ Parent ]
totally agree - like Schiavo (4.00 / 1)
no- wait? uhm- yeah, MSM isn't magical. Therea re limits that even they have with regard to changing fundmental attitudes.  

[ Parent ]
by the way (4.00 / 2)
your comments reinforces in my mind that for many of you- you don't appreciate the emotional impact of what you are saying. like with schiavo, I doubt many americans could be spun about their own rights being taken away. some guys in another country- sure. here, not so much.

[ Parent ]
Geez ... (4.00 / 3)
Dr. King just denouncning segregation from his porch really would have changed things ... right?  he could have sat on his rocking chair and just screamed at any passer by ..  would that have gotten the Civil Rights Bill passed? .. If you aren't willing to fight for what you believe in .. then you got nothin'

[ Parent ]
This is a completely different context (0.00 / 0)
Martin Luther King was not running for president as I recall. Paul is calling for a 'sit in' at Obama's offices. So you have to ask--what is the net result of such an action? I would direct this kind of protest to other fields where they won't damage our slim chance to win a small victory (Obama 08). I'm in favor of a sit in on Capitol Hill.  I'll meet you there.

[ Parent ]
Slim chances? .. (0.00 / 0)
Are you buying into the TradMed's bullshit already?  Do you think the economy is going to get any better in the next 5 months?  Are you willing to violate your core principles to get a win?  That's a pretty damn hollow victory.  Don't you want to be better than Republicans?

[ Parent ]
Calvin (0.00 / 0)
Read my other complaints in this thread. This problem is not as simple as we might wish--that is, if you really want a net positive outcome. I agree, it sucks.

[ Parent ]
Clinton slashed Medicare by $115 billion (0.00 / 0)
I was relieved to finally get Medicare - until I read the fine print. There are still co-pays, doctors who won't take you, monthly payments still taken out of your social security check. So how is this different from any other insurance plan that removes 15% of your paycheck?

Clinton's welfare reform bill, which was signed on Aug. 22, 1996, obliterated the nation's social safety net. It threw 6 million people, many of them single mothers, off the welfare rolls within three years. It dumped them onto the streets without child care, rent subsidies and continued Medicaid coverage. Families were plunged into crisis, struggling to survive on multiple jobs that paid $6 or $7 an hour, or less than $15,000 a year. But these were the lucky ones. In some states, half of those dropped from the welfare rolls could not find work. Clinton slashed Medicare by $115 billion over a five-year period and cut $25 billion in Medicaid funding. h/t Chris Hedges on truthdig, America's Democratic Collapse.
 

May have to break up the US Empire (0.00 / 0)
It may be that this country has gotten to big for the world, and too big for self-governance. If the USA is becoming a failed democracy, my view, one remedy is to break it up into geographic regions. Or into two halves, from the west coast to the mountain west. We're so wealthy and pro-democracy that we don't really need you in the south east and east coast. Obama has been saying that Washington D.C. is broken, but none of his remedies offer a fix, or even describe the problem of the military corporate take-over of the Washington D.C. power structure. He doesn't address the threats to the Constitution as dire. He's now going around talking about abortion and faith based social agency. He may another corporate Democrat like Bill Clinton. [which is what I thought in the beginning and so picked another to support].

It may turn out that we can't elect a progressive president - that the corporate titans who run the country won't allow any but a "safe for CEO's" kind of guy - not since FDR screwed up things for them by empowering a middle class. It may be that this United States should dis-unite, break up into 4 separate countries because the military corporate complex has a death grip on democracy. I like my state and the Pacific Northwest politics. I'd be perfectly happy to separate from the rest of you, keep our wealth and liberal politics right here at home and send ambassadors to your east coast mess.


Don't donate $$ to the Obama Campaign (0.00 / 0)
until he changes his FISA position. That's what should be next.

Cringe (0.00 / 0)
So I need convincing on this idea. I need convincing that we don't do more damage to the resistance movement by doing "sit ins". I'm concerned we're going to look like hippies from the 60s and too easily be labeled "radicals" and "destructive". It wouldn't surprise me to hear critics start dropping comments the likes of "what's next bombing offices?".

I'm for targeting the campaign - but I'm not sold on invading their offices is the best and only method available to us.

I dont have a lot of good ideas, but let me brainstorm for a second.

The campaign must be doing some outreach stuff - maybe hanging things on doors? or have parties? not sure. What about shadowing them on those? The hand out a flyer for Obama, we hand out a flyer against Obama on FISA?

I know time is also of the essence so I can appreciate the effect of a swift and immediately disruptive action like a site in.

I've be tossing out the idea of protesting any pro-FISA candidate fundraisers that Obama attends. How about banner drops at Obama appearances? any Obama rally or public appearance or any govt hearing he may attend?

How about setting up protests outside campaign offices. Hoist banners across their office store fronts?

Lawn signs?

?

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
SHIT! That was a reply to the wrong thing (4.00 / 1)
I was replying to Paul's post!

Withholding campaign donations is totally a good idea. I've personally already told them I'm not donating any more and putting the money into anti-FISA accountability campaigns.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare


[ Parent ]
so maybe this is just me, but what this country is a bit more of the 'radical' (0.00 / 0)
Now, I'm a young person, and I'm fairly certain that I'm predisposed, regardless of hygiene habits, to qualify as a DFH (UCSC class of '04!) But honestly, the last week of Obama's behavior has lead me to believe that we're in for some more center-right governing from the Dems (see:Clinton).  The problem is that the 'center' has moved so far to the 'right' the past few years, that apparently the belief that no one (including corporate persons!) is above the law makes me a radical.  Apparently belief that the 4th amendment was worth keeping makes me a radical.  Apparently belief that Lewis Libby was one too many makes me a radical.

Then you know what, sign me up as a radical.

I don't really have much of a specific suggestion here, this whole topic just gets me into a ranting sort of mood.  This is not helped in the slightest by your propagation of two things that I am loathe to read on a liberal.  Why is it that people are willing confirm this idea that hippies and radicals from the 60s were evil?  The lasting effects (except inspiring the far right into action) were excellent and progressive.  Second, while it is important to be aware of how something will play in media coverage, if your goal is to change the mentality and practice of the Ruling Elite (which Versailles is clearly part of) then realize that media within that elite will not cover you favorably.  Reading all the crap that's being spewed about the current round of teleco immunity just confirms that.

hmm...  This comment is a bit all over and in need of some editing.  Sorry about that, I'm posting it anyway.

I'm glad it's done


[ Parent ]
Use. Your. Vote. (0.00 / 0)
Christian conservatives were an essential party to the election of Bush-Cheney. When they feel slighted, they go to church, they send Pat Robertson on the 700 Club, they call Rush Limbaugh, and the world listens.

They will not vote without support for their key positions.

That vote, or even the promise of that vote, is key to their influence.

Progressive Democrats will not withhold their votes, and that is why Barack Obama does not listen to them.

Actively, vocally, promise to withhold not only money and campaign support, but promise to withhold your votes. That is the only way you will ever get a seat at his table.


[ Parent ]
Agreed (0.00 / 0)
Politics in this country is all about money.

You want someone's attention, you take their wallet away from them.

Sit-ins are for DFHs.  Way to play to the media narrative.


[ Parent ]
I'd like to ask the accountability wing to... (0.00 / 0)
stop replying to the hand wringers when they simply post along the lines of "if you do this Obama will lose to McCain". there is much back and forth on this but there is nothing new in the back and forth. the same arguments are being rehashed over and over. I say let us ignore these comments and that will keep strategy threads cleaner for working out next steps. let the fear mongering die on the vine; in time they will come to see the world is not going to end and that we're all going to be better for this. this is my last word on this. please join me in not entertaining their anxiety.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

I'm With You Will (4.00 / 1)
"We'll all be killed!" is not much of an argument.

So why keep responding as if it were?

If we don't buy it from BushBots, why buy it from Obamaphiles?



"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I just hope you realize (4.00 / 2)
that when you criticize Obama you are making Baby Jesus cry.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Every time you criticize Obama... (4.00 / 2)
God kills a kitten?

I support John McCain because children are too healthy anyway.

[ Parent ]
God is all out of kittens after the things Obama said the past two weeks (4.00 / 1)


Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

[ Parent ]
Okay now THAT (0.00 / 0)
made me laugh out loud.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
If you want to understand just how deeply f'd off you should feel (4.00 / 2)
make sure you read Glenn Greenwalds analysis of the Obama statement and even better his interview with Obama adviser Greg Craig.

reaction to Obama statement
http://utdocuments.blogspot.co...

reaction to Obama adviser Greg Craig comments in NYTimes
http://www.salon.com/opinion/g...

I emailed Craig this morning about his comments (here) and when I received no reply, I called him, left a message, and he called me this afternoon. After I read him his quote, explained that FISA won't expire, and pointed out that his comment in the NYT therefore made no sense, Craig paused for awhile and then said that he meant that the "warrants under FISA would expire in August," and Obama supported the FISA "compromise" to prevent that from happening. When I asked Craig if he was referring to the surveillance orders authorized by the Protect America Act that allow the Government to spy with no individual warrants (which have a one-year duration and do expire in August), Craig said that this is what he meant, and that Obama wanted to avoid having those surveillance orders expire.

While that last version at least generally comports with reality, it makes no sense whatsoever as an explanation for Obama's FISA position. Back in August, when he was seeking the Democratic nomination, Obama voted against the Protect America Act. Therefore, had Obama had his way, there never would have been any PAA in the first place, and therefore, there never would have been any PAA orders possible. Having voted against the PAA last August, how can Obama now claim that he considers it important that the PAA orders not expire? How can he be eager to avoid the expiration of surveillance orders which he opposed authorizing in the first place?

I asked Craig that question several times and received completely incoherent replies, after which he started insisting that he already answered me and had nothing else to add (he then changed the subject to talk about the "improvements" the current bill achieves over the Rockefeller Senate bill). The fact is that there is no answer. In the past, Obama has opposed the type of warrantless eavesdropping which those PAA orders authorize. He's repeatedly said that the FISA court works and there's no need to authorize eavesdropping without individual warrants. None of that can be reconciled with his current claim that he supports this FISA "compromise" because National Security requires that those PAA orders not expire and that there be massive changes to FISA. It's just as simple as that.

It's bad enough that Obama is supporting a new warrantless eavesdropping scheme. They should just candidly admit that he changed his position rather than feeding incoherent and insultingly false rationalizations to the public -- whereby they throw around the terms "National Security" and "balance" enough times and hope that nobody notices or cares that what they're saying makes no sense.



Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

No Fair, Will! (4.00 / 1)
There you go using facts again!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Self Parody (0.00 / 0)
I actually laughed out loud when I saw this.  You stated in a previous comment chain "as a straight white male."  That's what i thought when a read this.  only a straight white male who has never suffered any type of discrimination, would think Fisa paralleled any of the causes sit ins have been used for.

Donate to Open Left








Friends of the Earth thanks the OpenLeft community for the ideas you generate and your contributions to the progressive movement.

As an anti-spam measure, there is a 24-hour waiting period after registering before new users can comment.
blog advertising is good for you
blog advertising is good for you
SEARCH

   

Advanced Search