Patriotism Smackdown: Langston Hughes vs. Barack Obama (Hegemony Is The Enemy Special Report-Pt1)

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 13:22


"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson, April 7, 1775.

"In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first." - Ambrose Bierce, 1911

Obama's sudden lunge to the right has many facets to it.  For one thing, as Arianna Huffington argued, it was supremely stupid politically, going against everything that had previously distinguished him-which only intensified the question of why he did it.  This short diary series is an attempt to answer that question in terms of the larger history of American politics that shaped this political moment-a larger history that has shaped Obama in ways he seems quite ignorant of.

It also draws on concepts of cultural hegemony and culture war as originally conceived by the Italian Marxist Antonio Gramsci, particularly a concept of "culture war" much deeper and more penetrating than is generally connoted by the term..  Although Gramsci was clearly a man of the left, his formulations have been widely embraced.  No less a figure on the right than Rush Limbaugh wrote about him in his 1992 book, See, I Told You So.  And Limbaugh, unlike Obama, actually understood what the term "culture war" means-it is a struggle for control over the cultural institutions whose influence determines what is taken for granted in talking about political reality.

The rightwing control of talk radio is a perfect example of such control, an example that crucially depended on Reagan's FCC overturning the decades-old "Fairness Doctrine."  Using the public airwaves to repeatedly demonize large segments of the American people without opportunity for a reply is the sort of fundamental abuse of the public trust on which conservative power is based.  This single example alone should suffice to show that the idea Obama promulgates, that we can simply put the culture wars behind us by an act of political will, is both enormously appealing and utterly deluded.  

Paul Rosenberg :: Patriotism Smackdown: Langston Hughes vs. Barack Obama (Hegemony Is The Enemy Special Report-Pt1)
While there are many facets of Obama's shift to the right, I want to focus on one that may not seem all that significant, particularly since it is not directly tied to any policy position.  Yet, as we'll see, increasingly as this series advances, it provides a a multi-layer insight into how Obama sees America's political landscape, and his doomed attempt to put the culture wars behind us.

But I want to go beyond the surface stupidity, blindingly obvious though that may be.  I want to probe it's deep structure.  And unlike the surface manifestation, whose illogic Huffington so deftly dissects, that deep structure is actually nothing new.  It's only newly clarified.  And the best example of that comes with Obama's speech on patriotism and his latest attack on Vietnam Era anti-war protesters--one of whom, of course, was the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., the one man who did the most to make it possible for Obama to run for President in the first place.

Obama's repeated 60s-bashing is just as contradictory to his big-change future-oriented message as is his embrace of petty-minded pandering that Huffington lays bare.  But it's roots run much deeper in our history, and our collective dysfunctional psychology that Obama repeatedly fuels, rather than challenging.

Obama's Contorted Patriotism And The Logic of "Balance"

Here's the passage of Obama's speech on patriotism where he casually smears the protesters of the Vietnam War, embracing the logic of "balance", while, quite typically, going overboard in attacking the left :

In other words, the use of patriotism as a political sword or a political shield is as old as the Republic. Still, what is striking about today's patriotism debate is the degree to which it remains rooted in the culture wars of the 1960s - in arguments that go back forty years or more. In the early years of the civil rights movement and opposition to the Vietnam War, defenders of the status quo often accused anybody who questioned the wisdom of government policies of being unpatriotic. Meanwhile, some of those in the so-called counter-culture of the Sixties reacted not merely by criticizing particular government policies, but by attacking the symbols, and in extreme cases, the very idea, of America itself - by burning flags; by blaming America for all that was wrong with the world; and perhaps most tragically, by failing to honor those veterans coming home from Vietnam, something that remains a national shame to this day
.
Most Americans never bought into these simplistic world-views - these caricatures of left and right. Most Americans understood that dissent does not make one unpatriotic, and that there is nothing smart or sophisticated about a cynical disregard for America's traditions and institutions. And yet the anger and turmoil of that period never entirely drained away. All too often our politics still seems trapped in these old, threadbare arguments - a fact most evident during our recent debates about the war in Iraq, when those who opposed administration policy were tagged by some as unpatriotic, and a general providing his best counsel on how to move forward in Iraq was accused of betrayal.

Of course Obama was still being patently vague here, though not entirely so.  He is very clearly echoing rightwing rhetoric in the deceptive guise of evenhanded centrism.  Contrast the narrow time-frame and bland description of:

In the early years of the civil rights movement and opposition to the Vietnam War, defenders of the status quo often accused anybody who questioned the wisdom of government policies of being unpatriotic.

with the vividness and ongoing offense when he speaks of protesters:

attacking the symbols, and in extreme cases, the very idea, of America itself - by burning flags; by blaming America for all that was wrong with the world; and perhaps most tragically, by failing to honor those veterans coming home from Vietnam, something that remains a national shame to this day. [Emphasis added.]

This is a very deeply confused passage, if one tries to analyze it logically.  What exactly is "the very idea, of America itself" that Obama thinks some protesters were attacking?  The "symbols" are clear enough--he's talking about the (actually very small number of) flags that were burned.  But where is "the very idea" of America in the passage above?  It is, quite simply, nowhere to be found.  Implicitly, perhaps, Obama is equating "the very idea" of America with the "veterans coming home from Vietnam".  But this is clearly ludicrous.  Individuals, however nobel, remain individuals.  They are not ideas in any way, shape or form.  

Were the protesters attack "the very idea, of America itself" by "blaming America for all that was wrong with the world"?  This, too, is incoherent.  Such blaming--even in the exaggerated extreme rightwing form that Obama expresses it--is not attacking the idea of America, but rather the veracity of that idea as an accurate description--especially when invoked by those who are doing everything possible to make a mockery of it.  

Enter Langston: Getting Patriotism Right

Indeed, arguably one of the most patriotic poems in American history takes exactly this view.  I am speaking, of course, of "Let America Be America Again"  by Langston Hughes.

That poem begins with two voices, the main one expressing the naive faith in America that sees current troubles as a falling away from an idealized past, and a second voice, bounded by parentheses, that calls that naive faith--but not America itself--into question:

Let America be America again.
Let it be the dream it used to be.
Let it be the pioneer on the plain
Seeking a home where he himself is free.

(America never was America to me.)

In the course of the poem, the sidelined parenthetical voice, seemingly a lone dissenter against the sweeping tide of the main voice, emerges not as a single voice, but as a Whitmanesque multitude:

I am the poor white, fooled and pushed apart,
I am the Negro bearing slavery's scars.
I am the red man driven from the land,
I am the immigrant clutching the hope I seek--
And finding only the same old stupid plan
Of dog eat dog, of mighty crush the weak.

And that multitude questions the very premise--not of America, but of the naive faith that words can substitute for reality:

The free?

Who said the free?  Not me?
Surely not me?  The millions on relief today?
The millions shot down when we strike?
The millions who have nothing for our pay?
For all the dreams we've dreamed
And all the songs we've sung
And all the hopes we've held
And all the flags we've hung,
The millions who have nothing for our pay--
Except the dream that's almost dead today.

Yet, no sooner has Hughes laid out the failings than he immediately shifts to affirmation.  The very next lines read:

O, let America be America again--
The land that never has been yet--
And yet must be--the land where every man is free.

And from there on the poem builds to its conclusion:

O, yes,
I say it plain,
America never was America to me,
And yet I swear this oath--
America will be!

Out of the rack and ruin of our gangster death,
The rape and rot of graft, and stealth, and lies,
We, the people, must redeem
The land, the mines, the plants, the rivers.
The mountains and the endless plain--
All, all the stretch of these great green states--
And make America again!

To be sure, Hughes was a superb poet, and the great mass of those who railed against the Vietnam War as a betrayal of what America should be did not have his eloquence.  But is it fair to say they lacked his motivation?  Particularly when he saw that same motivation in the teeming and diverse masses he identified with?

No, it is not fair.  It is both false and mean-spirited.  And it is, in fact, a rightwing lie.
What Obama moved toward saying in the passage above--but then drew back from--was the full articulation of that lie, the claim that anti-war protesters commonly spat on returning veterans.

I will take up that lie, which Obama implicitly embraces here, in the following diary.  But for now, I will simply close by noting that Obama's speech is, at bottom, an unbalanced reflection of Hughes's poem.  To his credit, Obama does point out the role of dissent as a patriotic act.  He says:

But when our laws, our leaders or our government are out of alignment with our ideals, then the dissent of ordinary Americans may prove to be one of the truest expression of patriotism.

The young preacher from Georgia, Martin Luther King, Jr., who led a movement to help America confront our tragic history of racial injustice and live up to the meaning of our creed - he was a patriot. The young soldier who first spoke about the prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib - he is a patriot. Recognizing a wrong being committed in this country's name; insisting that we deliver on the promise of our Constitution - these are the acts of patriots, men and women who are defending that which is best in America. And we should never forget that - especially when we disagree with them; especially when they make us uncomfortable with their words.

But he also says:

I believe those who attack America's flaws without acknowledging the singular greatness of our ideals, and their proven capacity to inspire a better world, do not truly understand America.

Which is, when you think about it, directly contradictory to what he just said about dissent.  Indeed, it's precisely the sort of thing rightwingers have repeatedly said in order to squealch dissent.

Obama also says:

We must always express our profound gratitude for the service of our men and women in uniform. Period.

So, we must express our profound gratitude for Captain Medina, Lt. Calley and the men who followed their orders in carrying out the My Lai Massacre??  According to Obama, we must.  According to his formulation, they are as worthy of honor as Hugh Thompson, Jr., the helicopter pilot who risked his life to directly intervene and stop the killing, as worthy of honor as the other two members of his crew, Glenn Andreotta and Lawrence Colburn.

Somehow, I don't think so.

Winter Soldier vs. Sunshine Patriot

In fact, to "express our profound gratitude for the service of our men and women in uniform. Period." is not so much to honor those who serve honorably--they need no such blind admiration.  They can stand proudly in the full light of day.  No, what Obama is calling for is to write a blank check to those who would forever disgrace us, by dragging us down into the pit of barbarism.  There is, quite frankly, no aspect of our public life as citizens of a democratic republic, that is immune to public scrutiny and criticism.  For that is the very essence of a democratic republic--that we are accountable to one another for what we do.

Now, of course, it is true that war is a terrible thing, and many otherwise honorable people do things in war of which they are not proud.  And that is precisely one of the most compelling arguments why we should be extremely reluctant to go to war.  For to do so is to subject otherwise honorable people to the almost certain fate of betraying their inmost selves, their most cherished sense of who they are, for the defense of a country that does not even want to hear about it, and thus degrades their sacrifice into something base and squalid that turns their stomach even to think about it.

This is the horror that men face in war--not the horror of death, but the horror of killing, not just another human being, but their own sense of self and the higher cause for which they have sacrificed themselves.

This is what a young and not yet compromised John Kerry meant in 1971, when he reported on the Winter Soldier hearings, where soldiers who witnessed and took part in war crimes offered their testimony as a first step toward hoped-for redemption and transformation, and he said:

Several months ago, in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents, but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis, with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit--the emotions in the room, and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that, at times, they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam, in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the Winter Soldier Investigation. The term "winter soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine's in 1776, when he spoke of the "sunshine patriots," and "summertime soldiers" who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country, we could be quiet, we could hold our silence, we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel, because of what threatens this country, not the reds, but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out....

We are here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently, where are the leaders of our country? Where is the leadership? We're here to ask where are McNamara, Rostow, Bundy, Gilpatrick, and so many others? Where are they now that we, the men they sent off to war, have returned? These are the commanders who have deserted their troops. And there is no more serious crime in the laws of war. The Army says they never leave their wounded. The Marines say they never even leave their dead. These men have left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude. They've left the real stuff of their reputations bleaching behind them in the sun in this country....

We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories of that service as easily as this administration has wiped away their memories of us. But all that they have done, and all that they can do by this denial, is to make more clear than ever our own determination to undertake one last mission: To search out and destroy the last vestige of this barbaric war; to pacify our own hearts; to conquer the hate and fear that have driven this country these last ten years and more. And more. And so, when, thirty years from now, our brothers go down the street without a leg, without an arm, or a face, and small boys ask why, we will be able to say "Vietnam" and not mean a desert, not a filthy obscene memory, but mean instead where America finally turned, and where soldiers like us helped it in the turning.

This is what true patriotism means.  True patriotism.  Not nationalism.  Not jingoism.  But patriotism. True patriotism.

It is not turning a blind eye.  It is not striking a bargain between truth and lies.  It is looking truth squarely in the face, and doing what must be done to set things right.


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great post (4.00 / 4)
Which is, when you think about it, directly contradictory to what he just said about dissent.  Indeed, it's precisely the sort of thing rightwingers have repeatedly said in order to squealch dissent.

I think this is a misreading.  I think he represents an attempt to "include" dissent but provide it limits--limits that are tremendously flawed and in the interests of the powerful, as you point out and I agree with.  This is opposed to an attempt to squelch dissent (i.e. guantanamo, tribunals, deportations, fisa, civil liberties offenses, etc.).  He is, as you say, just better at it - but that has some benefits for us too--notably the space to actually dissent :)

But his approach too presents dangers to people who have some problems with the U.S.  Because he can make you feel like he's being respectful, make you feel like he's being decent, but at the end of the day, if he wins the presidency, he's the person in charge of an enormous killing machine abroad, in charge of a racist and classist justice system, in charge of the system of paying women lower wages and trying to control and commodify their bodies, in charge of the system of depriving non citizens both in the u.s. and outside of life or liberty or freedom of belief or freedom of association--

exactly what you said and Langston Hughes said- in charge of maintaining the idea that we must pretend that America is something that it is not but that we would have wished it were, wished it might be.


I Don't Think We Disagree (0.00 / 0)
We are just stressing different things here.

He is trying to have it both ways, which is directly contradictory.  This is the point we agree on (I think).

I stressed how it basically aligns with conventional attempts to squealch dissent, because I don't think people see that.

But I think it's also good to look at how he differs, which is where you place your focus in this comment.  

The ultimate purpose of a post like this is precisely to generate this sort of discussion that then goes much further to flesh out our thinking.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
I don't think it's contradictory (4.00 / 1)
I think his point is simply that you can't be TOO negative.  You can damn actions, or policies, but that you shouldn't damn America itself, which too often happens on the extreme end of left.

In particular, I think he understands that in order to have your dissent heard and considered, that you must be willing to see the other side of the coin and give it its due.  You can be far more persuasive if the other side thinks you're making a fair, informed, well-reasoned critique.  Basically, if you're going to criticize America, you shouldn't forget about what makes America great -- and if possible, frame your criticism in a way that demonstrates how what you're criticizing runs counter to what makes America great.

It's no more contradictory than "I don't support the war but do support the troops", in my mind.  Which is to say, not contradictory at all.


[ Parent ]
But who ever damned America? .. (4.00 / 1)
I mean seriously .. it's not the concept .. it's the people running the show .. I bet that was what Wright meant .. it's not America the concept .. it's the government officials that are the problem .. Obama should differentiate between the two .. it's always been about the people .. Jesse Helms and people like him

[ Parent ]
? (0.00 / 0)
Basically, if you're going to criticize America, you shouldn't forget about what makes America great -- and if possible, frame your criticism in a way that demonstrates how what you're criticizing runs counter to what makes America great.

Why?  Why can't people just criticize without meeting some demand for an overt expression of nationalism at the same time?  Moreover, how does it undercut their criticism if they don't actually believe that there is anything that "makes America great," whatever you might individually take that to mean.


[ Parent ]
well (0.00 / 0)
Well, you can, of course.  But I think it's much less effective when presented that way, and I think that's Obama's point.

Anyone who honestly doesn't think there's anything that "makes America great" probably won't have much luck convincing Americans to follow their suggestions or take their criticisms to heart.  That's just human nature.


[ Parent ]
The Deck Is Stacked Against Real Americans (0.00 / 0)
So, folks who have an implicit, non-defensive identification with their country are just SOL.

They will always lose out to people whose identity is so insecure that they must constantly affirm their 100% red-blooded Americanism.

Unfortunately, however, America was founded on the right to dissent.* So the later self-styled patriot is the most patently anti-American character one could ever hope to encounter.

I realize that practical necessity means we often have to play this game.  But the reality of the American ideal requires that we never forget that it is a game, and that we not impose this sort of absurdity on ourselves or others as any sort of sacred duty or other BS.

It is a Machiavellian necessity, nothing more, nothing less.  There is nothing the least bit noble about it.

Real Americans don't need flag pins.  

    * Virtually every country has free speech for those who assent.


"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
malcolm x didn't have much of a problem doing it (4.00 / 2)
"I'm not going to sit at your table and watch you eat, with nothing on my plate, and call myself a diner. Sitting at the table doesn't make you a diner, unless you eat some of what's on that plate. Being here in America doesn't make you an American.... No I'm not an American, I'm one of the 22 million black people who are the victims of Americanism. One of the 22 million black people who are the victims of democracy, nothing but disguised hypocrisy.... I'm speaking as a victim of this American system. And I see America through the eyes of a victim. I don't see any American dream; I see an American nightmare."

So it depends who you're talking to and what you're trying to convince them of.  After all, most people in the world are not Americans.


[ Parent ]
i see what you're saying (4.00 / 1)
but "having it both ways" is exactly what thomas frank and the other people at the baffler were talking about when they titled their book "commodify your dissent."  it is precisely how the american politics regulates and controls the limits of dissent today.

so where you see contradiction, i see brilliantly executed machiavellian strategy--as opposed to the dumbed down version of it which asks you to wear a flag pin and wants you to hate teenage immigrant welfare mothers on drugs.  it might literally be contradictory, but the two pieces (allow dissent, allow the people at the top to draw boundaries around what's allowable and what's not) are, in fact, what makes up hegemony, what gives the illusion of diverse political opinion without its substance.

now why people buy it is a totally separate question.

The ultimate purpose of a post like this is precisely to generate this sort of discussion that then goes much further to flesh out our thinking.

which i appreciate the opportunity for.  as i said, great post :)


[ Parent ]
When Is A Contradiction Not A Contradiction? (0.00 / 0)
so where you see contradiction, i see brilliantly executed machiavellian strategy--as opposed to the dumbed down version of it which asks you to wear a flag pin and wants you to hate teenage immigrant welfare mothers on drugs.  it might literally be contradictory, but the two pieces (allow dissent, allow the people at the top to draw boundaries around what's allowable and what's not) are, in fact, what makes up hegemony, what gives the illusion of diverse political opinion without its substance.

Speaking of Baffler, I'm baffled myself.  Are you saying that the smart version evades hegemonic control?  Because the thrust of this series is that the contradiction I'm pointing to is a direct result of absorbing the boundaries of hegemonic discourse as one's own.

This doesn't have to be the case mind you.  This is an empirical argument, so there could well be examples where it does not obtain.  We have to look at the evidence and see what's the case.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
on baffling (0.00 / 0)
Are you saying that the smart version evades hegemonic control?

No.  I'm saying the smart version IS hegemonic control--just better executed. It's the newfangled variety (which is also the old variety), which involves less "you're with us or against us" and more "let's all be friends and buy stuff."  Even smart people and casual dissenters most often go along with it :)

Because the thrust of this series is that the contradiction I'm pointing to is a direct result of absorbing the boundaries of hegemonic discourse as one's own.

We might be saying the same thing - not sure.  I see a difference.  I think the idea you're raising - is that the Republican discourse has become so all-pervasive that it IS the political discourse today. You might be right and I'm just too blind to see it (wouldn't be the first time).

I still see a difference between Republican political discourse and the political discourse itself (Democrats and Republicans), which changes over time and is more tied to the interests of the market than any other individual political force.  And I would call the latter, broader discourse "the hegemony," the range of tolerable political and cultural ideas or the political/cultural component of liberal capitalism--which serves the purpose of ensuring that there's political stability for the market (and helps push demand through consumer capitalism, etc.).  

The rest of the response got too long, so I'm put the whole thing in a diary here.


[ Parent ]
Okay, Then We're Agreed (0.00 / 0)
Though there's a further complication.

For Gramsci, it was all very clear.  He was a Marxist, and he wrote in the context of class struggle.  Hegemony had only one possible meaning--the hegemony of the ruling bourgoise capitalist order.

I'm not like that.  While I do recognize more validity in Marx's outlook than is currently thinkable, my fundamental orientation is that of a Jamesian pluralist, which means I tend to see multiple constructs of hegemony/counter-hegemony.

So, the construct you point to is certainly one of them, and it's important to recognize in order to not be blinded to its limitations.

But my primary focus is a different one, one that is actually more contested.  And that is the hegemonic struggle between authoritarianism and egalitarianism.  This is the struggle that can be spoken of in terms of Social Dominance Theory, for example.

As a Jamesian pluralist, I feel no need at all to deny or argue with your stress on market hegemony.  It's simply that that's not where I choose to put my primary focus.

But also as a Jamesian pluralist, I think it's a good thing that you have a different emphasis.  It will certainly breing things to light--or, at the very least highlight things--that my approach might overlook.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
cool (0.00 / 0)
i can't believe i spent 10 years of thinking and reading to come up with basically the same structure as Social Dominance Theory (as described on wikipedia) - minus the evolutionary stuff.  It makes me feel pretty foolish :)

Thank you for both the comments and the openness - this is really helpful.

I haven't really figured out what the driving forces behind hegemony are - I do agree with Gramsci to a great extent about the driving force of capitalism as a structure but that's partly because I haven't been given a convincing alternative (yet) -- to some extent when I say "market" or "capitalism" it's a vague stand in for "whatever's driving things."  I'm definitely open to the idea that there are multiple driving forces.

Currently, in the U.S., I do think it's largely the market and a desire for global dominance (but where does that come from? :).


[ Parent ]
"Let America Be America Again" always reminds me of another, more famous work. (4.00 / 1)
Woodie Guthrie despised the optimistic and church-y tone of America the Beautiful, and as a response penned this:


This Land is Your Land
This Land is My Land
From California,
to Staten Island
From the Redwood Forests
To the Gulf stream waters
This land was made for you and me

A positive affirming message that gets taught to every schoolchild in the country today.  But if one listens to the whole song, the protagonist goes through the same process that you see in Hughes' poem, in these two rarely quoted verses:

here was a big high wall there that tried to stop me
Sign was painted, it said private property
But on the back side it didn't say nothin'!
That side was made for you and me


In the squares of the city,
In the shadow of a steeple;
By the relief office,
I see my people
And I hear them mumblin'
and I hear them grumblin'
Is this land made for you and me?


Since it's inception, this country has had a tension between what it's promise was and what it is.  Astute observers have aways known this.  Standing up for it is, as you said so eloquently above, what patriotism is.  And the funny thing, in Obama's speech on race, "A More Perfect Union," he seemed to get this, too.  What the hell has happened to him since Clinton dropped out?

You nailed it .. (4.00 / 1)
What the hell has happened to him since Clinton dropped out?

That is when all this clap trap started.  The thing is, the media loves it, so they'll never ask him why the move.  I wonder if anyone at a "Town Hall" event will ask him.


[ Parent ]
He's Only As Good As His Opponents (4.00 / 3)
And because McCain's a dirty rotten scoundrel, watch out!

At least that seems like a good first approximation.

This is something that's come increasingly into focus for me--how much of an outer-directed/other-directed person Obama is.  Some say that all politicians are like that, but that's really not true.  One can be quite inner-directed/self-directed and still be quite sociable, which is what they're really talking about.  It's a question of where your guidance comes from,  And Obama's seems to come from whoever he's interacting with.

Mimikatz said in another diary today that Obama is not a chameleon.  I'd say that's true... but only because a chameleon is not nearly so actively engaged in the act of blending in to whatever's around it.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Can you further explain this? (0.00 / 0)
This is something that's come increasingly into focus for me--how much of an outer-directed/other-directed person Obama is.  Some say that all politicians are like that, but that's really not true.  One can be quite inner-directed/self-directed and still be quite sociable, which is what they're really talking about.  It's a question of where your guidance comes from,  And Obama's seems to come from whoever he's interacting with.

[ Parent ]
Well A Lot of This Goes Back To The Lonely Crowd (4.00 / 1)
Wikipedia has a good overview here.   It starts off thus:

It identifies and analyzes three main personality types: the tradition-directed, the inner-directed, and the other-directed. The work traces the evolution of society from a tradition directed culture, one that moved in a direction defined by generations that preceded it. Values and social order were a function of the forces of age-tested rules and definitions. The tradition-directed obeyed rules established a long time in the past, and rarely succeeded in modern society, with its dynamic changes.

This earliest social type was succeeded by people who were inner-directed. They discovered the potential within themselves to live and act not according to established norms, but based on what they discovered using their own inner gyroscope. Inner-directed people live as adults what they learned in childhood, and tend to be confident, sometimes rigid.

After the Industrial Revolution in America had succeeded in developing a middle-class state, institutions that had flourished within the tradition-directed and the inner-directed social framework became secondary to daily life. Instead of living according to traditions, or conforming to the values of organized religion, the family, or societal codes, the new middle class gradually adopted a malleability in the way people lived with each other. The increasing ability to consume goods and afford material abundance was accompanied by a shift away from tradition or inner-directedness. How to define one's self became a function of the way others lived.

Gradually an outer-direction took hold, that is, the social forces of how others were living what they consumed, what they did with their time, what their views were toward politics, work, play, and so on. Riesman and his researchers found that otherdirected people were flexible and willing to accommodate others to gain approval. Because large organizations preferred this type of personality, it became indispensable to the institutions that thrived with the growth of industry in America.

The book was written in 1950.  And the mentality it described was disucssed in other books of the 50s as well.  This was a good part of what the counter-culture was a rebellion against--though it was also a search for, and that search for was, in a sense, a deeper realization of the old inner-directed ideal.

This would later be described by social scientist Ronald Inglehard as the emergence of "post-materialist" values, and related to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, revolving around issues of self-expression more than survival or belonging needs.

My intuition is that Obama represents a kind of regression to the pre-60s mentality, even as it appears to move forward--being less hung up on issues of identity, for example.  This why he splits protest and dissent into good and bad forms.  The good forms conform to an implicit (and historically innacurate) ideal that is validated by being rooted in tradition (a further regression) while the bad forms are seen as purely destructive.  But this split is entirely arbitrary, and reflects his own inner ambivalence about claiming his own values and purposes.

Seen through this lens, his vaunted ability to "see both sides" is very much related to having nothing substantive in the game.  Whatever works to mediate between others is fine with him.  And those who stand out because they are not willing to yield like this are either idealized (like Martin Luther King, in some fairly stylized and prefunctory references) or demonized "something that remains a national shame to this day."

I'm not sure I've actually answered your question.  But I have dug a little deeper beneath the surface of my thinking, so there's more in the open to discuss.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
Lets see .. (4.00 / 1)
if I can sum up what you are saying .. you think Obama is outer-directed because he wants to gain approval from the "group of the moment"?  Before it was the Democratic base .. and now it is independents and Evangelicals.  Would that be a correct portrayal of your point?

[ Parent ]
Roughly, Yes (4.00 / 2)
But there's also the national press, which is more or less a constant throughout, though different sets of attitudes come out at different times.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
Thanks ... (0.00 / 0)
but that begs a question .. since you just mentioned it .. why would be want the acceptance of the national press?  I could see it if he treated them like McCain does .. but he doesn't .. and as this Iraq comment nonsense goes ... he has to know they are looking to knock him down 3 or 4 pegs .. the TradMed owes a debt to McCain after all

[ Parent ]
That's Just It (4.00 / 1)
He will take shit from them and give it to us.

That's part of the weakness of the outer-directed type.  People well-adapted to the mass industrialization model were always vulnerable to abuse by petty tyrants within the system, for example.

It takes inner direction to stand up for yourself, and say, "Hey, I'm not going to take this!"

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
So Howard Beale was inner-directed? ;-) (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Howard Beale Was All Over The Place (0.00 / 0)
[ Parent ]
I read Obama differently in key respects (4.00 / 1)
You said:

This was a good part of what the counter-culture was a rebellion against--though it was also a search for, and that search for was, in a sense, a deeper realization of the old inner-directed ideal.

Like you, I was around in those days, and experienced it on personal, social and political levels.  One read of Obama's perspective, which strikes me as more likely to be true than any other I've heard, is that, in his comments about the "so-called counterculture" of the 60s, he's trying to emphasize the importance of the "deeper realization of the old inner-directed ideal" and the fact that the "rebellion against" component was insufficient (and, in key respects, counterproductive) for realizing "a more perfect union" based on a fuller manifestation of the principles in the Declaration of Independence.

You describe Obama's "vaunted ability to 'see both sides'" as "very much related to having nothing substantive in the game.  Whatever works to mediate between others is fine with him."

I see it more as a mix of pragmatism and an intuitive sense of "dignitarianism," which I consider a core manifestation of the "deeper realization of the old inner-directed ideal" you refer to.  Put differently, a key element of dignitarianism (as I see it) is to not lose one's dignity in the face of indignities imposed upon you or upon others.  My experience is that the ability to do this is derived from that deeper realization of the inner-directed ideal you refer to.

I do think that Obama, coming from a younger generation, doesn't fully appreciate all the truly dignitarian actions and statements made by "counterculture" critics back then.  Like many Americans who weren't directly involved in enough of those moments, he's probably got somewhat stereotypical images of what was something far richer, more real and more human than the media and even history books can convey. But this shortcoming in his perception does not mean to me that he accepts the distorted and often malicious framing of those we opposed then and still oppose today.

But I also think its fair to say that some amount of what was expressed (in speech and action) by some of us DFHs in those days was mainly a reaction to indignity with reciprocal indignity--or at least had enough of that in the mix to feed further downward cycles of mutual indignity.  I can at least speak with some authority in that regard concerning my own behavior.

In contrast to your interpretation of Obama's view of MLK as somehow tied to "his having nothing substantive in the game", I'd suggest that his "idealizing" references are tied to the fact that MLK was such a strong and clear example of fighting injustice with great courage while retaining one's dignity and creating space for anyone else to step up and reclaim their own dignity, if they chose to.  And also that, in doing so, MLK was ultimately successful in catalyzing powerful progressive change.

What you seem to perceive as a very serious flaw in Obama's character, I (and I suspect others) see as a strength that makes him someone I believe I can work with--and also fight with at times when we disagree about issues that are important to me.  And, importantly, in the fighting and its aftermath, I believe that both of us would be able to treat the other with enough dignity so that, in future rounds of agreement and disagreement, our alliances and fights would be more productive.  And I think part of what Obama has observed and is saying is that today's national politics has, over time, become so bereft of dignity, that just the opposite cycle holds sway, where the primary skill that has developed and drives Beltway/Versaille interactions is the debasement of dignity.

While I could try to parse the various sections of Obama's speech, including the ones you discussed and those you didn't, I don't think that would change anyone's mind regarding this question of Obama's character and motives.  As I noted above, I do agree that his perceptions can be both skewed and limited with regard to the 60s and other issues.  But this doesn't lead me to your conclusion "that Obama represents a kind of regression to the pre-60s mentality, even as it appears to move forward."  I hope I at least gave some indication why in this comment.


[ Parent ]
Thanks For Pressing Me (0.00 / 0)
As this helps to clarify what I'm saying--see especially the end of this comment, where I build to a climax.

But first, the easier stuff.  What's in the post is there for a reason--what's in the comment is more tentative and is not the main line of my argument. I'm tossing it out there as something I ruminating on myself.  So please dont mistake those ruminations for my main conclusion. (Again, see below.)

This:

Like you, I was around in those days, and experienced it on personal, social and political levels.  One read of Obama's perspective, which strikes me as more likely to be true than any other I've heard, is that, in his comments about the "so-called counterculture" of the 60s, he's trying to emphasize the importance of the "deeper realization of the old inner-directed ideal" and the fact that the "rebellion against" component was insufficient (and, in key respects, counterproductive) for realizing "a more perfect union" based on a fuller manifestation of the principles in the Declaration of Independence.

is a whole lot of hopeful reading-into that doesn't go down so well on FISA-sweetalking-betrayal week.

In fact, I could respond to pretty much everything you've written here that it's a plausible theory... until you consider the past few weeks, and how they bring back a whole set of earlier issues and examples that have similar issues in the past.

In short, my problem with Obama is not so much the theory of him (not my first choice, but viable) as the practice (headed for Tony Blairsville, or worse).  And thus, theory-based defenses of him will not do much for me, as they don't really address what I find problematic.

Rather--and here's the part I was referring to above--I would say that it's the assumptional background he brings with him in putting the theory into practice that is most problematic for me.  This background I take to be at least partly a result of unquestioned absorbtion of rightwing hegemonic discourse.  My upcoming posts will address some specific examples of what I'm talking about, in terms of creating this false image of eternally shameful behavior.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
I like that explanation. (4.00 / 3)
It means I can blame the Girl Scouts of America for making me the DFH I am today.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Good work (4.00 / 3)
I enjoyed this one a great deal.

As for his patriotism speech, I tend to agree with all your points, but I also have a sneaky suspicion that he doesn't view it the same way.  While your points about him contradicting himself are spot on, that's undoubtedly his communications team's version of "fair and balanced." Indeed, this speech sounded like it was written by one of our vaunted talking heads, not an intellectual who would know better than to say some of these things... especially tied together in the way they were--which is to say the syntax is pretty dumb at times, but good enough for Teh TeeVee.

So my reaction is more one of, "This is just petty politics dressed up as a 'major statement' for the purpose of disarming those that would villify him in the press as being 'unpatriotic.'"

The way he presents dissent as something that is okay as long as it doesn't offend HIM or His Crowd sounds like Reagan responding to demonstrations by saying, "It's a free country and people can even be Commie Dupes if they want to." That stuck in my craw just as it did yours.

I especially found that quip about people protesting the "very idea" of America rather toxic. Um, the whole point of dissent in a democracy is to preserve "the very idea," not destroy it. It's the reactionaries who are subverting the "very idea" not the other way around.

Still, I'm wondering just how seriously we should be taking this. For all his blather about a New Kind of Politics, he sure is doing things in a pretty traditional manner. So I'm seeing more cynical manipulation of a narcissistic sort than anything else. I'm certainly not seeing Change We Can Believe In!

Still, your deconstruction was not only an enjoyable read, but very worthwhile. We should be taking apart people's rhetoric all the time.

It's just a shame Bierce isn't around to see this, isn't it?

"In our country, the lie has become not just a moral category but a pillar of the State" -- Alexander Solzhenitsyn


The most disturbing aspect, as you pointed out with Obama'spassage, needs to be (4.00 / 2)
looked at again:

In the early years of the civil rights movement and opposition to the Vietnam War, defenders of the status quo often accused anybody who questioned the wisdom of government policies of being unpatriotic. Meanwhile, some of those in the so-called counter-culture of the Sixties reacted not merely by criticizing particular government policies, but by attacking the symbols, and in extreme cases, the very idea, of America itself - by burning flags; by blaming America for all that was wrong with the world; and perhaps most tragically, by failing to honor those veterans coming home from Vietnam, something that remains a national shame to this day.

But as you said the word choices are striking -

describing 'Conservative' side of his argument:

  • in the early years
  • Civil rights movement
  • opposition to the Vietnam War
  • defenders of status quo
  • accused anybody who questioned
  • wisdom of the government policies
  • of being unpatriotic

    Describing the left or liberal side of his argument, or what he calls'counter-culture of the sixties' :

  • Meanwhile,
  • some of those in the so-called counter-culture of the Sixties
  • reacted
  • not merely by criticizing particular government policies
  • but by attacking the symbols,
  • and in extreme cases, the very idea, of America itself -
  • By burningflags
  • by blaming America for all that was wrong with the world;
  • perhaps most tragically, by failing to honor those veterans coming home from Vietnam
  • something that remains a national shame to this day

    the litany of 'sins' is longer, the language is certainly more inflammatory and evocative, and the emphasis is certainly most selective- even the word 'Meanwhile' is an choice which conjures up  something derogative - like a 'side show'

    I have written before - Obama's sense of American history is deeply suspect. He sees things through a historical prism that I don't, but I am convinced that Lynne Cheney finds a lot of common ground with Obama's view of recent American history( last 50 years).  


  • I Agree (0.00 / 0)
    I think there's considerable affinity to Reagan that he's soaked up over the years, and I think that the interview he did in which he praised Reagan was a genuine window into his soul.  Then he got all surprised and defensive when people reacted as they should have, with shock and dismay.

    But part of it is simply that he lacks self-awareness about the depth to which Reagan has influenced him.  (And not just Reagan, of course, using him as a symbol here.)

    I hope to dig deeper into the imaginged history he seems to be drawing on in a way that will shed more light on the assumptions he's working from.  But, of necessity, this is going to be something that people will have to test out for themselves over time, to see if it rings true for them.

    "Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


    [ Parent ]
    It is probably the most important component of a candidate that is not examined enough: (4.00 / 4)
    their sense of American history and what periods of that history that they can draw lessons from.

    I was so impressed when Webb used distant historical references in his response to the SOTU speech - and correctly - about an important topic.

    When Obama mentioned Reagan as he did, I was floored because it was such a  re-inforcement of the "Reagan myth'; it goes directly to his judgement IMO.



    [ Parent ]
    not to get too psychological but (4.00 / 1)
    i think part of his deep-seated commitment to "unity" over other aims (like productive REAL difference of the kind that wright speaks of) is being biracial.  as someone who's only bicultural, i know trying to bring together different pieces of yourselves can be really difficult, particularly when meshed with politics.

    [ Parent ]
    "patriotism" (0.00 / 0)
    This is what true patriotism means.  True patriotism.  Not nationalism.  Not jingoism.  But patriotism. True patriotism.

    I think the problem with this -- and the main point Obama was making -- is that too often on the left this is the only kind of patriotism.

    Now, don't get me wrong, dissent is an important element of patriotism, probably the most important, and often the most difficult.  But there's a reason that the left has a bad reputation for being unpatriotic, and it's because we too often solely criticize, and don't spend enough time being vocal about the things that America does well.


    But That's Not Really True (4.00 / 1)
    Read the poem.  Or, as Valatan suggests, "This Land Is Your Land."

    Or, for that matter, the Pledge of Allegiance, which was written by a leftist--a Christian socialist, in fact.

    The right wing has done an incredible job of re-defining the left to suit it's own purposes, but the difference between the right wing's images and reality is as vast as the Grand Canyon.

    "Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


    [ Parent ]
    historical examples notwithstanding... (4.00 / 1)
    I agree that a large part of it is spin by the GOP, but the fact remains that in the public's eye (and my own as well), we are largely the party of "dissent patriotism".

    It's an important role, and the GOP sure isn't going to fulfill it.  But I think we could do a better job of tempering it with praise for the things America does well.

    To be frank, I think it's a bit counterproductive to nitpick what I thought was a pretty fantastic speech that was totally in accordance with the even-handedness that Obama's been demonstrating from the start.  Does it really matter that Obama's criticism of the extreme left is 20% more specific or 30% longer than his criticism of the extreme right?  Is that really that big a deal?  I've seen this centrist, "I see your side of the story" meme from Obama all along, and it's one of the reasons I find him so appealing as a candidate.  Is it really worth tearing him down for it?

    And as the risk of being too harsh: or is this article just more (ironic) evidence of the culture of negativity that the left too-often tends to embrace?


    [ Parent ]
    With All Due Respect (0.00 / 0)
    You can't solve problems without analyzing them first.

    Don't believe me?  Try debugging some code by randomly rewriting different lines.  Heck, that wasn't even correct word usage, since the very word debugging refers to the process of finding and fixing bugs in the code.

    This is the culture of the left--fixing things that are wrong in the world.  It's deeply intertwined with the ideology of progress.

    Finally, as a former programmer and a current editor, this sort of careful reading is second nature to me.  Why do something half-assed?

    "Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


    [ Parent ]
    There's more to ccarallo's comment (4.00 / 1)
    The thrust of ccarallo's comment, as I read (into) it, isn't that you were overly detailed in your criticism of Obama's speech, but that:

    1) you overemphasized elements he/she considers less important and subject to various interpretations, and underemphasized those that are unambiguously progressive and more important in what they say about Obama;

    2) your interpretation of Obama's underlying motives and nature are substantially incorrect (an opinion I share, as described in my own comment);

    3) your high-visibility critique and others like it may feed right-wing frames with regard to claimed character flaws of Obama, in ways that lead to his failure to get elected or to govern successfully if he is.

    To the extent #3 is a real risk, then would you not be doing to Obama what you and others complain he's doing to the left, DFHs, etc--critiquing him in a ways that, while meant constructively are, in key respects, feeding into right-wing frames designed to destroy him politically?

    Your response to ccarallo doesn't address any of this, though you may have in other comments in this thread.  Analyzing and fixing problems is good, but more important is deciding which problems are worth analyzing and fixing.  I think what ccarallo might be saying here (or at least I am) is that the weaknesses in Obama's speech don't rise to that level of importance and, in addition, that the bottom line conclusion of your analysis regarding Obama's motives and nature is substantially incorrect.


    [ Parent ]
    Please See The Diary ('s Parenthetical) Subtitle (4.00 / 2)
    This is part of a long-time concern of mine, elucidating the hidden impact of a one-sided culture war.

    It's my belief that failure to engage in this culture war against the right is the biggest single failing that progressives and Democrats have fallen prey to over the past four decades.  Given that assessment, I will tend to evaluate the salience, significance and risk factors substantially differently than others may.  After all, what would be the point of a far-reaching analsyis that didn't have any significant, specific near-term consequences?

    So, I hope folks will read the entire series--Part II just went up a couple of minutes ago--and will be willing to hang out with sometimes partial, incomplete and even ambiguous responses along the way.  If these arguments could be answered succinctly in a short comment, there'd be no call for writing a prolonged series.  I'm trying to engage the points that seem most fruitful to engage at any particular time, with some foreknowledge of what I've already written (or at least sketched out) in later installments.

    I realize this can be frustrating to some who may feel their concerns aren't being answered, but I promise to stick with the discussion through the different diaries, so that I'm not permanently hiding from responding to things that don't get answered in earlier diaries.

    So, turning to the specific points you raise:

    1) you overemphasized elements he/she considers less important and subject to various interpretations, and underemphasized those that are unambiguously progressive and more important in what they say about Obama;

    This misunderstands my purpose--as I hope I've made at least somewhat clear above.  What looks less important from one perspective may be much more important from another one.  Obama obviously doesn't think the 4th Amendment is all that important, for example. I do.

    2) your interpretation of Obama's underlying motives and nature are substantially incorrect (an opinion I share, as described in my own comment);

    I have some speculation about motives and nature--which I've spoken of more in comments than in the diary itself, precisely because this is not the main thrust of my argument, or my main concern, and because it is more tentative.  But my main concern is the degree to which Obama's unwitting acceptance of rightwing hegemonic narratives will constrain his chances of success in ways that both he and most Democratic activists do not fully appreaciate.

    3) your high-visibility critique and others like it may feed right-wing frames with regard to claimed character flaws of Obama, in ways that lead to his failure to get elected or to govern successfully if he is.

    David Brooks & Co in need of my input?  Sorry, I don't think so.  It's so much easier to just make shit up.  And those guys always go for the easy stuff.

    I hope this helps.  I don't expect agreement. I'm hoping for a good discussion.

    "Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


    [ Parent ]
    Read the freaking (4.00 / 4)
    Declaration of Independence. Or the Preamble to the Constitution -- two of the most LIBERAL documents ever written.

    In my opinion, between the two of them, they may be the most perfect encapsulation of Liberalism there is.

    The left has a reputation for being unpatriotic because a bunch of pyschotic liars have been calling us unpatriotic since forever.

    Montani semper liberi


    [ Parent ]
    to stretch this further, (0.00 / 0)
    i think "the left" (i.e. communists, socialists, anarchists) have a reputation for being unpatriotic because they actually are not.  American Liberals (progressives, whatever) have a reputation for being unpatriotic because they allowed the systematic destruction of the left as part of the cold war and before, while the same tools were being turned on them.  And to this day, and not by coincidence, there's simply an insufficent commitment by liberals to real ideological diversity on the left.

    [ Parent ]
    And Even Further... (0.00 / 0)
    You make a very good set of points here, which is more direcly relevant than what I'm about to add. I only do add it to further underscore the fact that we often confuse the necessary and the contingent.

    Many on "the left" were patriotic--such as the Christian socialists like Bellamy, who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance--while others were internationalists who could have been patriotic as well (patriotism defined as love of homeland, native or adopted, as opposed to nationalism--hatred of other nations), but for the emergence rabid jingoism in the late 19th Century that effectively closed off that alternative.

    Given that America was, at least compared to where they came from, a potentially fertile land for living out political liberty, and given that it brought together workers from different lands, there was a real potential for an immigrant worker left form of patriotism, as well as the native Christian socialist form.  Of course, nothing remotely like this could flourish in the jingoist atmosphere of the time.

    But if you look at the example of Upton Sinclair getting arrested for reading the First Amendment to a gathering of multi-ethnic longshore workers of the IWW at Liberty Hill in 1923, you can see that that potential continued to persist even through incredibly repressive times.  

    "Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


    [ Parent ]
    persist? it was squelched,,, (0.00 / 0)
    by deportations, arrests, selective immigration policy, etc. over decades

    Emma Goldman,
    Marcus Garvey,
    Operation Wetback

    If you get a chance, check out Aristide Zolberg's Nation By Design.  I haven't read it, but it might be of use.  An excerpt from the website:

    According to the national mythology, the United States has long opened its doors to people from across the globe, providing a port in a storm and opportunity for any who seek it. Yet the history of immigration to the United States is far different. Even before the xenophobic reaction against European and Asian immigrants in the late nineteenth century, social and economic interest groups worked to manipulate immigration policy to serve their needs. In A Nation by Design, Aristide Zolberg explores American immigration policy from the colonial period to the present, discussing how it has been used as a tool of nation building.

    A Nation by Design argues that the engineering of immigration policy has been prevalent since early American history. However, it has gone largely unnoticed since it took place primarily on the local and state levels, owing to constitutional limits on federal power during the slavery era. Zolberg profiles the vacillating currents of opinion on immigration throughout American history, examining separately the roles played by business interests, labor unions, ethnic lobbies, and nativist ideologues in shaping policy. He then examines how three different types of migration--legal migration, illegal migration to fill low-wage jobs, and asylum-seeking--are shaping contemporary arguments over immigration to the United States.



    [ Parent ]
    This passage is revealing (0.00 / 0)
    Obama also says:

    We must always express our profound gratitude for the service of our men and women in uniform. Period.

    So, we must express our profound gratitude for Captain Medina, Lt. Calley and the men who followed their orders in carrying out the My Lai Massacre??  According to Obama, we must.

    So, now Obama honors the soldiers who carried out My Lai.

    Oy vey.

    John McCain doesn't care about Vets.



    Well, He Doesn't INTEND To (4.00 / 2)
    But he simply hasn't thought through what he's saying.

    And that's part of the whole jingoism thing. You don't think.  You turn off your mind.  And you call it "patriotism" to do so.

    And, yes, the end result of that is that you've made an argument for honoring war criminals, on a par with everyone else who served.

    "Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


    [ Parent ]
    Except that no one without an agenda (4.00 / 1)
    would make that extension. No one would equate "always" honoring our soldiers "period" with honoring war criminals. That is not a reasonable construction.

    John McCain doesn't care about Vets.



    [ Parent ]
    But People Use It All the Time (4.00 / 1)
    Pretty much every war criminal who ever lived has invoked that logic.

    It may not be "reasonable," but that didn't stop anyone.

    And, of course, the reality is that (a) war crimes are incredibly commonplace in guerilla wars, and (b) there are even more gray areas than clear-cut war crimes.  So if you reject the logic as I presented it, soon you are questioning very large numbers of troops--and, of course, their commanders.

    In which case, it's simply absurd to claim that you "must always express our profound gratitude for the service of our men and women in uniform. Period," while setting aside 10, 20, 30 percent or more who may have committed war crimes.

    "Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


    [ Parent ]
    No reasonable construction is that literal (4.00 / 1)
    No one (in their right mind, anyway) would say "I honor the service of our men and women in uniform, except for the 10 to 30 percent who have committed war crimes." And, no one would abstain from saying "always" or "period" because to do so might imply they honor war criminals.

    That is not a reasonable construction or inference. There is not one person in one million people who would hear it that way. Unless they have an ax to grind with the speaker and they want to twist innocuous words into something sinister.


    John McCain doesn't care about Vets.



    [ Parent ]
    This Is Ludicrous (4.00 / 2)
    As I said before, this is the exact same sort of logic that's been used to defend war criminals for as long as there have been rules of war.

    To pretend that such defenses have never been used reveals a level of delusional denial that precludes any further rational discussion.

    It is however, most illuminating to see the lengths that people will go to in order to defend this sort jingoistic discourse.

    Why not simply say, "Yeah, I think I know what he wanted to say, but he was so sloppy, he ended up blithering there."

    "Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


    [ Parent ]
    Better yet (4.00 / 2)
    Why not simply admit you are not above putting words in Obama's mouth and then condemning them?

    John McCain doesn't care about Vets.



    [ Parent ]
    THOSE WERE HIS WORDS! (4.00 / 1)
    You're trying to tell us that he didn't mean what he said. If that's what you think, just say so. But a simple reading of his words yields Paul's conclusion. "Period."

    Why, exactly, should we be so desperate to honor soldiers (or sailors, airmen or marines) in any case? There are lots of reasons people go into the military (family tradition, educational benefits, a paycheck), are they all honorable? What about the low-level criminals and gang members the armed services are accepting to fill out their ranks (bereft of honorable people willing to serve in a disgusting invasion/occupation)?

    The only purpose of this un-American idea is to get people to fall into line. You've apparently taken your number, but some of us see the loose screws and shaky wheels and want no part of it.


    [ Parent ]
    But what about the culture war? (4.00 / 2)
    For a (very thought and appreciated) post that starts with the culture wars, there's surprisingly little about the cultural aspect of the culture war.  By this I mean the most exhausting holdover of the '60s: that dissent comes from dirty f'ing hippies and obedience comes from upright normal people.  

    I dwell at one of the leftier universities in the nation, one that makes David Horowitz crap his pants in rage, and this dynamic is alive and well.  And the DHF students and colleagues that I have do attack the 'very idea of America' as part of their basic lifestyle.  There's absolutely zero room not only for using a symbol of patriotism, but also for supporting the 'idea' of America as even possible.  There's basically one protest per week-all for excellent, historically progressive, and truly American causes-and never once have I seen an American flag or heard an invocation of the 'American idea.'  I don't believe this is simply a matter of not being thoughtful about the distinctions between patriotism and nationalism, it really is a lifestyle choice, a stylization.  From my roots in the Midwest, I know the inverse is true for the right.  The 60's made just such a conflation of style and politics possible, and it's so tiring ...

    I know all the reasons to be suspect of the 'idea of America'.  I know the history.  But Obama is right that there just has not be room for the "yes, and ..." aspect of patriotism on the left.  I think it's unfortunate that he picked up so much of the right wing framing and isn't also calling out the right on these matters.  For instance, on the matter of Vietnam vets, I completely agree with Obama that we as a nation failed to honor those vets and let them suffer for our shame on both the right and left.  Despite the complete falsity of the spitting myth, was there ever any chance that the left was going to push for actually taking care of these vets?  No, because DFHs don't organize around square causes like that.  Was there any chance that the right was going to do it?  No, because upstanding citizens can't acknowledge our shame and have to remain focused on the external enemy.  So the vets just got chewed up, often diseased and homeless.

    I'm not happy he slips into the rightwing framing on some of this, but I hope to jeebus that Obama opens up some space to drop this bullshit.  We know what America should look like, and we're right, but I often feel we can't get there unless we can actually invoke the Americaness of that ideal.  Obama is venturing into new territory politically, and I don't feel the need to open up the firing squad when he stumbles.


    This Is Simply False (0.00 / 0)
    Despite the complete falsity of the spitting myth, was there ever any chance that the left was going to push for actually taking care of these vets?  No, because DFHs don't organize around square causes like that.

    Particularly since the GI anti-war movement were DFHs, and were amongst the most active advocates for better treatment for themselves and their comrades.

    "Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


    [ Parent ]
    And look who is behind the new GI Bill? .. (4.00 / 2)
    Certainly not the most noted Republican veterans like McCain and his BFF Mini-me(Graham) .. but Democrats like Webb

    [ Parent ]
    Great Post (4.00 / 1)
    Nice job, Paul, and thanks for the reminder about the Hughes poem.

    Wasn't it you who wrote months ago about the extreme vagueness of (primary) candidate Obama's policy statements and warned progressives who were all gaga over him about projecting their own wishes onto his blank screen?  Maybe it was Chris.  I'm pretty sure I read it here at OL.

    I think what's happened since Clinton admitted defeat is that he's gone from broad, general vagueness to more specific vagueness.  

    Many on the left like to ridicule the (especially, Neocon) right and celebrate superiority to them with terms like "reality based."  And while we certainly spend a great deal more time in the real world in terms of understanding how horrendously 50+ years of basically Republican rule, greed, and lawlessness have broken America, we have a tendency to put on our rose colored glasses when it comes to fixing things.  I'm as susceptible to this as anyone else when I'm not thinking deliberatively.  

    After all, wasn't it having those glasses knocked off by reality (along with the end of the Vietnam War) that ended the progressive fervor for so many of the "hippy" era?  We were so clearly right, and had been so clearly proven right by the unfolding events of Watergate and Nixon's criminality.  Surely a perfect America was just around the corner.

    But nothing changes that quickly or that easily.  Meaningful change comes slowly, and painfully, and only as the result of a whole lot of hard work.  

    Regardless of what one feels about the 2000 "election," the fact remains that approximately half the Americans who voted thought it wise to put GW Bush and his puppet masters in charge of our country.  More amazingly, the same was true in 2004, when you'd think it would be impossible for anybody to look at what was going on and think it was good.  

    What this tells me is that there are, indeed, two Americas.  One America --roughly 1/2 of us-- isn't frightened by the real world (or at least not so frightened that we can't look at it clearly) and, seeing what we see, are ready to roll up our sleeves and do something to fix it.  The other half of us find the world so terrifying that they must live in an alternate reality, their lives ruled and decisions made for them by rigidly authoritarian institutions with zero-tolerance for ambiguity of any sort, helping them feel a little less threatened, but not so much so that they don't need to remain eternally vigilant for any deviation from their semi-comfortable norms.[1]

    Barack Obama, if nothing else, is a pragmatist.  He understands these two halves, and understands that, whether we like it or not, that fear-based half is just as much a part of America as you and I, with the same rights to life, liberty, and respect as the other half -- and, frankly, under normal circumstances the fear-based half is more likely to be conscientious about getting out to vote.

    Lasting, meaningful reform requires consensus.  When it is imposed upon the conquered by the victors, the result is inevitably chaos.  Surely our own country's civil war has taught us that.

    BO's first job is to get elected.  And, because the line between the two halves of America doesn't run along party lines, both to get elected and to have any chance of making lasting changes to our government and our culture, Obama has to assuage the fears of a significant number of those fear-based voters sufficiently for them not only to vote for a Liberal Negro, but also to venture into ambiguity a tiny bit and think about some of the ways their authoritarian masters have failed them.

    So let's not be too surprised if we progressives aren't hearing the words from Obama that we're so hungry for.  Those words would scare the bejeezus out of most of the other half -- and that's no way to build consensus.  

    There are some issues on which I think we've got to demand more of Obama, the Constitution and FISA being the one I see as most important at the moment.  The other stuff ("patriotism" and the like), not so much.[2]

    If anybody can put an arm around the fear-driven and lead them by the hand into being willing to take a tiny peek at the unholy mess we're in, it is Barack Obama.  Let's give him some room to do it.

    * * * * *

    [1] I've long believed that there's a real possibility that America is just too damned big and diverse for such a strong central government.  In a way, an Obama presidency might provide insight into the question behind those thoughts.  Personally, I'd like to see the country broken up.  If nothing else, a looser confederation of autonomous regions or states would be one hell of a lot less likely to go to war at the drop of a hat.  

    [2] Regarding FISA, I can't get nearly as excited about it as a lot of my friends on the left.  The telecom immunity part pisses me off enormously, but the rest of it is clearly unconstitutional, and I'm certain the ACLU will take that question to the SCOTUS, where that will be determined (yes, even this court) in a way that doesn't depend on the ever-changing whims of congress.

    "Ignorance is the most dangerous element in any society." - Emma Goldman


    As a resident of that part of the country (4.00 / 2)
    that once tried to break away from the United States, I can only say, that is an insane idea. The only reason we have anything worthwhile in this country at all -- decent work hours, minimum wages, clean water, and an end to freaking slavery for crying out loud is because of the central government. Do you really want to throw your own countrymen back into a semi-feudal state?

    Montani semper liberi

    [ Parent ]
    I don't believe one necessarily follows the other (0.00 / 0)
    I have more faith in the good part of human nature.

    I firmly believe that there exist maximum geographical and popular sizes within which it's possible for citizens to feel connected to and represented by a central government.  I don't know what those numbers are, but I believe with near certainty that they exist, and are considerably smaller than the current United States.

    I've lived in Europe for most of the last eight years, and have been watching the growing pains of the EU as it searches for its own answers to this whole line of thought.  I was impressed by the number of Europeans who wished their countries could vote again on the question of the most recently proposed Constitution, and who breathed a sigh of relief when the French "came to their senses," and rejected it, causing the whole process revert to the drawing board.

    It's also interesting to watch both how the admission of Poland, the most fear-based, authoritarian country in Europe has influenced peoples' thoughts about the idea of admitting Turkey, and how EU membership is beginning slowly to change Polish attitudes and values toward more openness.  

    (I also suspect that one of the many reasons the Soviet Union failed was the combination of the size/distance thing and the totalitarian nature of the central government.)

    An awful lot of the hatred in the hearts/minds of fear-based Americans toward progressive ideas and institutions and The Government in general comes from little more than resentment at feeling like they're being told what to do, think, and believe by people who are so far away they're not quite real to them. Change is scarier than anything to these folks, and feeling powerless over forced change is better than just about anything else for turning that fear into anger and hatred.

    A breakup, even done with the greatest care (and it would have to be) would be chaotic, to be sure, but I don't imagine one happening in the first place unless the country as a whole was in such a state of chaos that that people were willing to try just about anything.

    - - - - -

    I hesitate to raise the issue of slavery, but I think it's important to address it since you mentioned it in your post.  

    We'll never know what might have happened if the South had won the civil war.  Certainly more years of slavery, but I suspect not that many, and I think there's a cogent argument for the point of view that America might very well be a much better place today if slavery had died a natural death rather than being killed at gunpoint by foreigners (and that is very much what northerners were to the south in those days -- still are in some parts of the south).  

    The economics of slavery were pretty rough.  Housing and feeding and caring for and controlling all those people, no matter how shabbily and harshly was an expensive proposition.  The industrial revolution produced machinery that was both less expensive and more efficient than the slave system.  Plus, world opinion was turning against the institution, and economic boycotts and diplomatic pressure (i.e., that darned real world again) were making it very difficult to continue.

    The Civil War had disastrous results for race relations the effects of which continue to this day.  We'll never know if relations between the races would have been better today if time and practical reality had been allowed to take their course -- there are way too many variables in that what-if to even speculate very well.  But I believe that the spark of basic goodness in human nature is big enough that it couldn't possibly have been worse.

    "Ignorance is the most dangerous element in any society." - Emma Goldman


    [ Parent ]
    If the South had won (4.00 / 1)
    we would still be a third world country today, backwards and corrupt, ruled by strongmen unaccountable to anyone. Kind of like what the Party of the South, the GOP, has been trying to bring to the rest of the country. How do you like it so far?

    Thanks but no thanks. I'll take democracy instead.

    Montani semper liberi


    [ Parent ]
    And ps (4.00 / 1)
    "the Civil War had disasterous results for race relations?"

    Seriously man, what are you smoking and did you bring enough for the whole class?

    Montani semper liberi


    [ Parent ]
    Inner/outer directed -- ENFP (4.00 / 1)
    I'm going to just quickly throw out some random thoughts from the either related to this conversation.

    1) Obama an ENFP?

    If that Slate article is correct, Obama is an ENFP, which would actually make him very inwardly focused, not outwardly.  Now, this could simple be incorrect, the Slate article doesn't really back up many of the claims, but it does resonate with me.  Personally, I'm an INFP and tend to see bits of myself in Obama, even the bits I don't like.

    If correct, Obama would be the probably the first iNtuitive president, ever.

    But does that counter what Paul wrote?  Not necessarily.  NFs often feel like they are acting.  To quote Angela from My So Called Life, "People are always saying you should be yourself, like yourself is this definite thing, like a toaster. Like you know what it is even."  Classic NF.  I too tend to unconsciously become a chameleon, to the point of actually taking on other's accents without realizing it.

    I think I'll save 2) for another post.


    INFP also here. And I very much relate to what you are describing. (4.00 / 2)
    It's an overempathy and feeling-based outlook that in Obama's case leaves him lost  amid to many voices to overempathize with.
     Hence people's disappointment with him- his empathy is quite genuine; it's just untethered and vacillates from here to there.
      But, of course, I would say that, being an overempathetic INFP.

    [ Parent ]
    Too many voices to overempathize with (0.00 / 0)
    That explains it well.

    But while there are negative aspects to this, it isn't a bad thing.  I thought I'd be a horrible manager for all these sorts of reasons, yet I turned out to be really good at it.  We've seen the same from Obama -- his team has worked amazingly well together with basically no backstabbing or major turf wars.  That has all flowed from the top.

    Getting Obama surrounded by the correct people is the most important thing.  He'll drive whatever group he is in to consensus.  As criticism is the best form of error checking, these consensuses will tend to be more correct than one would get from oneself, but the makeup of the group will obviously matter a great deal.

    Interesting how much of this agrees with Paul's inward vs outward observations above, yet have a largely different starting and ending point than what Paul implies.


    [ Parent ]
    Except, Of Course (0.00 / 0)
    The Myers-Briggs introvert/extrovert dichotomy is not the same thing that Reismann and his coauthors were writing about.  They weren't talking about personality types.  They were talking about socializaiton into different sorts of social systems.  It's only natural to suppose that there are affinities that line up between the two, but they are not the same things.

    One can, for example, be an introvert (energized by the internal world of ideas and reflection) whose thinking is conditioned by how to get along with others, or an extrovert (energized by the outer world of action, people and things) whose actions are guided by a strong sense of inner purpose.  It's more natural to match up the other way, of course.  But there's nothing that says all the introverts have to disappear for an outer-directed society to emerge.


    "Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


    [ Parent ]
    Kegan levels 3 and 4 (4.00 / 1)
    (So that's how you double-post, click "Post" while simultaneously hit the Enter key with the the palm of you hand, by mistake.  Sorry about that.)

    The following I posted a few days ago as the very last comment on a now dead thread.  But the more I think of it, the more I believe Obama is at least at Kegan's stage 4 but uses Kegan's stage 3 rhetoric, but always as Object, not as Subject.

    Anyway, here is what I wrote and I think it is relevant to this discussion:

    --------

    All I know about the Kegan stages comes from the google hive-mind, but I think a case can be made that Obama's entire narative, from his books to his speeches on race and patriotism, are about transitioning from stage 3 to stage 4.

    (The following quotes hand-typed from here.)

    At the third order, the self is subject to authority.  Traditions are closely adhered to.  The self is its beliefs, values and roles.  Third-order consciousness is lived by its plot, unaware of the stories by which it is scripted.  At the third order, the self is the ego.  There is no perspective on the simulation, so there is no way the simulation can be seen as simulation.

    That doesn't sound much like Obama, but that perspective is referenced by Obama all the time.  But the following sounds just like the narrative Obama constantly taps into:

    With the fourth order the self is its own author, similar to the way the writer of dramas invents plots and scripts with the materials at hand (albeit culturally and linguistically determined).  The self can be distinct from its story.  The self is reflectively conscious of how it can alter and invent aspects of the simulation.  The self may experience what Kegan called the loss of community or the loss of "gods" as it becomes conscious of its freedom and lack of determination by social conditioning.  Beliefs are taken as objects by an identity as subject no longer owned by social roles and values.

    Obama treats the frames you complain about as objects, not subjects.  That alone implies stage 4.  It is almost as if his goal is to bring America along with him from one stage to the next.

    I know this isn't really answering your question, but it is where my research for the answer led me.  There is probably a good diary in here somewhere, comparing Obama's speeches and books to these stages.

                             


    Here's The Thing (0.00 / 0)
    People can be at Level 4, and still succumb to groupthink that is functionally indistinguishable from Level 3 at a distance.  (There's an unpublished PhD thesis about this that I've seen significant parts of.)

    So you may be right, but it's not making the difference I'm looking for in the problem areas I'm looking at.

    The ways in which different sorts of cognitive factors interact in real life are only beginning to be well understood.

    p.s.  Double-post?  What double-post?  I don't see a double-post! (Heh! Heh! Heh!)

    "Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


    [ Parent ]
    Hegemony (4.00 / 1)
    It also draws on concepts of cultural hegemony and culture war as originally conceived by the Italian Marxist Antonio Gramsci, particularly a concept of "culture war" much deeper and more penetrating than is generally connoted by the term..  Although Gramsci was clearly a man of the left, his formulations have been widely embraced.  No less a figure on the right than Rush Limbaugh wrote about him in his 1992 book, See, I Told You So.  And Limbaugh, unlike Obama, actually understood what the term "culture war" means-it is a struggle for control over the cultural institutions whose influence determines what is taken for granted in talking about political reality.

    I have a problem with comparing a politician to someone on talk radio.  Bush breaks this mold all the time, damaging the right's hegemonic push, as does McCain, Romney, Huckabee, Schwarzenegger and every other Republican of major national recognition.  (Compassionate Conservatism, anyone?  In stark contrast to that nasty, normal kind.)

    The politician is like a river rafter, guiding the raft through the turns, rocks and obstacles of the river.  Cultural hegemony is the river itself.  You will have a much harder time comparing Obama to other politicians.

    And before you try, note that the first instinct will be to through quotes from Obama against the left versus Republican quotes for the right.  But the Obama speech has plenty of pro-left pushes in it as well.  For example:

    That is why, for me, patriotism is always more than just loyalty to a place on a map or a certain kind of people. Instead, it is also loyalty to America's ideals - ideals for which anyone can sacrifice, or defend, or give their last full measure of devotion. I believe it is this loyalty that allows a country teeming with different races and ethnicities, religions and customs, to come together as one. It is the application of these ideals that separate us from Zimbabwe, where the opposition party and their supporters have been silently hunted, tortured or killed; or Burma, where tens of thousands continue to struggle for basic food and shelter in the wake of a monstrous storm because a military junta fears opening up the country to outsiders; or Iraq, where despite the heroic efforts of our military, and the courage of many ordinary Iraqis, even limited cooperation between various factions remains far too elusive.

    or

    Of course, precisely because America isn't perfect, precisely because our ideals constantly demand more from us, patriotism can never be defined as loyalty to any particular leader or government or policy. As Mark Twain, that greatest of American satirists and proud son of Missouri, once wrote, "Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it." We may hope that our leaders and our government stand up for our ideals, and there are many times in our history when that's occurred. But when our laws, our leaders or our government are out of alignment with our ideals, then the dissent of ordinary Americans may prove to be one of the truest expression of patriotism.


    Let Me Be Clear (4.00 / 1)
    I'm writing mostly about the hegemonic narratives and their relationships to reality.  I'm not saying that there's nothing progressive in what Obama said.  I'm saying that it suffers from unconscious acceptance of rightwing hegemeonic narratives, and I'm trying to elucidate how and why that is so. Langston Hughes provides a benchmark counter-hegemonic narrative that may serve to make it more clear how Obama's generically progressive message deviates by inclusion of influences from that hegemonic discourse.

    Now, it seems obvious to me that we have to be able to identify such deviations before we can assess how to weight them.  And we also have to consider how even a casual reflection of rightwing framing can be played up by others, so that merely analyzing the text in isolation should not be taken for granted as the way to go.  I am, in the ned, less interested in Obama per se than I am in how he interacts with others, both taking on influences from others and influencing others in return, with the emphasis on the narratives on their consequences.

    "Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


    [ Parent ]
    A helpful response (0.00 / 0)
    I'll try to more fully digest it and some of your other posts later.

    With regard to your last response (re: David Brooks & Co.), wouldn't the same apply to Obama's alleged use of a right-wing frame with regard to the Vietnam era (or anything else)?....

    David Brooks & Co in need of my input?  Sorry, I don't think so.  It's so much easier to just make shit up.  And those guys always go for the easy stuff.

    How come that applies to you, but not Obama?  Maybe because he's a presidential candidate?  That would make sense to me, since he may soon have the biggest bully pulpit in the country, maybe the world. That gets me back to a comment I think I made in the next thread, which is that I hope Obama reads your "Vietnam-era history lesson."

    The following response does make sense to me, though I'm not sure I share your view of its importance, at least with regard to the current instance being examined:

    [M]y main concern is the degree to which Obama's unwitting acceptance of rightwing hegemonic narratives will constrain his chances of success in ways that both he and most Democratic activists do not fully appreciate.

    One element I see as significant is that, in my view, Obama seems more "teachable" than most politicians (i.e., he has a relatively good chance of "growing into the job" instead of getting lost in and consumed by the bubble).  Most of this is an intuitive read of him, but it is based on watching and listening to him (and reading parts of his book) with a focus on this question.  So I remain hopeful.  At the same time, I'd be happy to see him get a briefing from you every week or two.


    I agree with you to an extent .. (0.00 / 0)
    but his changing positions on FISA doesn't bode well .. at least at this time ... maybe circumstances will force him to become an FDR like figure .. we'll see

    [ Parent ]
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