Defeat Pushes Parties Towards the Victors

by: Daniel De Groot

Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 14:15


A frequent refrain of the 3rd party progressive is this notion that by denying the unsatisfactorily progressive party your vote, they will be punished, and will in future, become more progressive to recapture it.  

This theory makes a certain amount of intuitive sense, but in fact I can find no evidence for it, and plenty that shows the reverse happening.  At this point there is little doubt that being defeated generally causes a party to move toward the party that won, not toward the idealists who refused to support them in protest.  The effects of victory are less consistent, but defeat usually results in moving to where the most votes are, which is the party that won.  

The basic problem is that voting is a very blunt instrument for influencing policy.  You may be sending a message, but it is not heard clearly and usually misinterpreted.  The other problem is that this theory is based on entirely too much reification of parties.  We discuss them sometimes as if they are coherent even monolithic actors, but this just isn't so.  The Democratic party does not have a brain and nervous system that reacts to stimuli like a person might.  

Inside some cases to consider:

Daniel De Groot :: Defeat Pushes Parties Towards the Victors
  • 1952 - After 6 5 consecutive defeats, the Republicans nominate Eisenhower and abandon policy planks to kill Social Security and roll back the New Deal.  Make no mistake, Eisenhower was far too liberal for the Republican base.  

  • 1968 - After the defeats of 1960 and 1964, Republicans nominate another (relative) moderate, Richard Nixon over the conservative pick, Ronald Reagan.  Nixon picks a nationally unknown VP from a liberal state (Maryland) to further placate voters that he is not too far to the right.

  • 1992 - After 3 big defeats, 2 of which entailed running actual liberal candidates, Democrats pick DLC moderate Bill Clinton.

  • 2004 - In 2000, Ralph Nader's vote totals in NH and FL, if given to Gore would have won Gore the electoral college.  Another 5K Gore votes going to Nader in WI would have given that state to Bush too.  Despite this lesson delivered by the 2.4% who voted for Nader I didn't notice the Democratic party turning left in 2004.  In fact it rejected such a candidate in the unapologetically anti-Iraq war Howard Dean and opting for the "electable" John Kerry, who downplays his liberal roots and runs as a pragmatic centrist.  

  • Canada's NDP and Liberals - While they are not in electoral oblivion, the effect of Canada's social democracy party, the NDP is generally not to "pull the Liberal party left" but actually push it to the centre.  When the NDP manage to hold the balance of power in a minority parliament, they can be effective in forcing progressive policies from the Liberals, but electorally, their main effect is to syphon off  progressive voices from the Liberal party and leave the less progressive wings of that party in control of its agenda.

  • UK's Lib Dems and Labour - I haven't studied this, but I'm guessing it isn't that far off what the NDP/Liberals do in Canada.  Judging by the Blair and Brown Premierships, it seems likely.

I bring up those last two not as examples of "defeat pushing a party" specifically but so I can transition into what actually happens.  The main effect of not voting for a party is that your voice is no longer relevant to later policy debates.   You left the table, so the people who showed up will play your turn for you.  

Now, are there any examples where the 3rd party voting tactic has worked?  Even if your goal is to create an American NDP/Liberal Democratic 3rd party analog, I have to say it's not always all that great.  The NDP took down the Paul Martin Liberal government because they figured they would increase their own seat margin and end up as the balance of power in the next minority parliament.  It didn't work, and the Conservative party has been in charge here since 2005, with the NDP ignored even more than they would be under a Liberal government.  They're currently bashing Stephane Dion's gutsy national carbon tax plan in favour of the less effective cap and trade.  Why?

Well my thinking is that the purity of 3rd parties is inversely proportional to their electoral chances.  Once the party gets to the level of having enough electoral power to actually sway outcomes, they have something to lose, and start compromising on positions to achieve  more or keep power.  Or, they explicitly run against the more liberal major party in unprogressive ways.  See here, here, and here.

Post Script:  Often I see people saying "well I live in a safe blue/red state so I can protest vote without risking a Republican victory" - That's probably true, but your vote still matters.  Bill Clinton never got a majority of the vote, and this talking point was frequently used to deny him the mandate he should have rightly been able to claim.  In both victories, he absolutely thrashed his Republican opponents by far greater margins than Bush beat Kerry, yet a 51-48 victory for Bush was sold as "political capital" and a "mandate."  Even in Utah and Massachusetts your Democratic vote matters in this calculus.  


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Nitpick (4.00 / 3)
A very good post overall, except for this:

Bill Clinton never got a majority of the vote, and this talking point was frequently used to deny him the mandate he should have rightly been able to claim.  In both victories, he absolutely thrashed his Republican opponents by far greater margins than Bush beat Kerry, yet a 51-48 victory for Bush was sold as "political capital" and a "mandate."  Even in Utah and Massachusetts your Democratic vote matters in this calculus.

I think this was simply a matter of Versailles' pro-Republican spin, picking and choosing whatever rationale would produce the result they wanted.  After all, Bush was able to push through his tax cuts in early 2001, based on an electoral mandate of losing the popular vote to Gore.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


True (4.00 / 2)
But that is what we are up against.  Unfair as it is, Obama needs both a significant popular vote margin and an absolute majority to qualify for "mandate" status.  Republicans just have to steal the office to get their mandates.


[ Parent ]
Even That Won't Do It (4.00 / 4)
Obama's victory will be credited to gaining the support of conservative independents and Republicans, and he will be counselled to govern accordingly--as a Bush I sort of figure.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
but, don't forget (0.00 / 0)
if he loses, it will be attributed to his race and his legions of young supporters terrifying "middle America" (god, I hated that term, growing up in the Midwest).  Our politics are so Catch-22-y with respect to Progressivism right now, that I'm actually not sure how to actually push the parties to the left.

Note that whenever Ray Moore threatened to run as a third party candidate, the press repeatedly pointed out how the Republicans needed to move to the right and placate their base in order to get the religious theocrats in line, yet this is never the case with third party leftist candidates.  There is an institutional bias toward conservatism that is more fundamental than this third party/primary debate.


[ Parent ]
mandate for what dude? (4.00 / 1)
it's one thing to argue with those of us who oppose how centrist Obama is by arguing that he's FAR better than McCain.  It's another thing to argue that we should give him a "mandate" for the policies he wants to implement when he's shown very little intent of actually pushing the bounds of politics towards a direction that we would believe in.  If he wants a mandate that includes that small percentage of us that believe in something to the left of him and live in red states or blue states, let him do his calculations and decide if he wants to earn it.  That's what I would do if I were in his shoes.

Don't get me started on Bill Clinton...


[ Parent ]
fair question (0.00 / 0)
Whether Obama deserves a mandate, that is.  Maybe I'm too naive in hoping for a sort of 1932 landslide which pulls Obama with it, sort of like FDR did.

But I'm not nearly expert enough on the politics of 1932 or FDR to know if that example is instructive or likely to happen again.  


[ Parent ]
Who gets a mandate?... (0.00 / 0)
If Senator Obama were to get an electoral mandate our whole country would be the winner!

Remember, Æsop's fable, (I'm an old Rocky and Bullwinkle fan), The Four Oxen and the Lion?

A LION used to prowl about a field in which Four Oxen used to dwell. Many a time he tried to attack them; but whenever he came near they turned their tails to one another, so that whichever way he approached them he was met by the horns of one of them. At last, however, they fell a-quarrelling among themselves, and each went off to pasture alone in a separate corner of the field. Then the Lion attacked them one by one and soon made an end of all four.
   "UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL."

Sure, it's a cliché.  

Here's another one, "In bromide there is truth"


[ Parent ]
well suppose he pulls off a landslide (0.00 / 0)
what then?  he's already told you that you should take his votes as his positions.  There's nothing to indicate that he is suddenly going to flip around if he wins and the Democrats win, say 55 votes in the Senate and a majority of the House and try to implement a single-payer health care system.  Circumstances would change that would lead him to do this gradually, but currently, I think the Gail Collins summary is good - that Obama is "anti-dumb", and I think that a mandate for him would be "anti-dumb" i.e. centrist, conventional wisdom (like building bridges and levees is good), a few mods here and there, and not much more.  It's fine - it's the beginning.  It just doesn't deserve a mandate in my mind :)

[ Parent ]
Actually... (4.00 / 1)
...in pre-9/11-2001, I remember the press starting off by saying that Bush didn't have much a mandate, and that because he had lost the popular vote, he would surely have to "govern from the center" and maintain some sort of broad consensus for any major policy moves.  Of course, Bush immediately set about acting as if he had won in a landslide, and the national media did precisely nothing about it.  And in a real sense, there was nothing particularly wrong with Bush doing what he did (at least politically, if not substantively): why should any president voluntarily act out the role that the national media has collectively decided to assign him?  

[ Parent ]
Oopse (0.00 / 0)
# Canada's NDP and Liberals - While they are not in electoral oblivion, the effect of Canada's social democracy party, the NDP is generally not to "pull the Liberal party left" but actually push it to the centre.  When the NDP manage to hold the balance of power in a minority parliament, they can be effective in forcing progressive policies from the Liberals, but electorally, their main effect is to syphon off  progressive voices from the Liberal party and leave the less progressive wings of that party in control of its agenda.

Those voices would be silent in the Liberal party.  That's why the NDP is there.  You should look at the last two election results.  The NDP increased its MPs and the Conservatives have a minority government.  The flaw in this argument as it relates to Canada is that the Conservatives aren't in power because of a rightward shift; they are in power mostly because of issues related to Quebec, and also due to a corruption scandal in the Liberal party.  The NDP refused to support the Liberals in the vote of no confidence, and that caused the election that led to the Harper minority government.  They were told that was stupid, but at the end of the day, they did end up with more MPs as progressive-leaning Canadians voted with them.

UK's Lib Dems and Labour - I haven't studied this, but I'm guessing it isn't that far off what the NDP/Liberals do in Canada.  Judging by the Blair and Brown Premierships, it seems likely.

No.  Blair and Brown were simply reacting to a lack of success, just like in your pattern.  I don't think you can place the LibDems on a simple linear right-left axis with the Tories and Labour, either.

The reality is that our electoral system is what prevents third parties from being effective.  Both of the countries you cite as counter-examples are far more progressive and sensitive to issues raised by the third parties that you list, especially when those votes are needed.

In our system, third parties usually play spoiler for historical and legal/constituional reasons.  But in most other countries, they do not.

How about Israel?

The ultra-Orthodox Shas party, and other earlier Ultra-Orthodox parties become coalition partners of whoever needs the votes as long as they get what they want: which is control over Jewish status questions and a few other things that have nothing to do with right-left issues.

The only place in the US I can think this would matter would be in the Senate, where a group like the Gang of 14 can effectively rule from the center.  In every other body, if you have a majority, you can more or less govern.

Especially since the president is popularly elected and is not a prime minister (and is relatively powerful compared to others) it's a pretty tough slog in the US.

But, please, don't suggest that Canadian NDPers and British LibDems should STFU and vote Liberal and Labour.


NDP (0.00 / 0)
More seats, less power.  Seems like a Pyrrhic victory for progressives to me.  Paul Martin was going to implement a national day care program, and instead families get a taxable $100/month per child from Harper which covers maybe 3 days of day-care instead.


[ Parent ]
Margret Thatcher (0.00 / 0)
never got more than 41% of the popular vote (if you combine the totals of the Conservative MP's).  The Labour/Lib/SDP split can be said to have enabled Thatcher -but the split between Labour and the Libs was very real and it is probably wrong to say that Labour could have won if the alliance did not run.

Any analogy to Canada is dangerous because of the regional splits in the country.  The second province is dominated by the PQ in Quebec(whose origins began on the left, but now I am not so sure), and there are parts of the country where one of the three major parties don't exist.  

Nonetheless, it is absolutely true to say the NDP enabled the current Conservative Government.  

The current analogy to the UK is complicated by the Iraq War and the fact that it was started by a party that has traditionally been on the left and was opposed by the previously more centrist Liberal party.  Where was the anti-war vote supposed to go?  


[ Parent ]
Drawing parallels to the UK and Candada is difficult (4.00 / 1)
they have Parliamentary systems that change the calculus of responding to elections quite tremendously--the marginal value of having a majority versus not having a majority is vastly increased by the fusion of executive and legislative powers.  The UK and Canada are more complicated sorts of beasts, due to the fact that they combine Parliamentary government with single member districts, but at the same time, the mapping is not perfect, especially since third parties there are quite viable, and in several seats/ridings, have completely replaced one of the two major parties.

In other European nations, the third parties have been much larger, and are commonly the deciding votes in a Parliamentary coalition.  One wonders if the greens may have been part of why Schröeder was so unwilling to enter into Iraq, when many of his "third way" compatriots were quite happy to do so.  The fact that Sweeden's socialists have been a minority government for most of the country's history, with communists having a large voice in Parliament, might have something to do with how a socialist economics is so much more firmly entrenched there than in other European countries.  

 Also, in the case of the UK, you could say that the emergence of the SNP certainly has forced the hand of the mainstream parties on the issue of devolution*.  

*though of course, this is a single issue party, not one trying to move politics generally to the 'left.'  One could theorize that the Prohibition party helped push the issue of prohibition into the mainstream political debate, too, though the SNP has far more electoral success than the Prohibition party ever did in the states.


Not to mention that a lot of the instability in postwar Italy (0.00 / 0)
was due to the presence of large post-fascist and communist parties that were distasteful to everyone else, which led to minority governments and unity governments of social democrats and christian democrats.  In the minority government case, the presence of the extreme parties certainly did (or should have, at lest) push the mainstream parties toward the extremes some.  

[ Parent ]
Understandable (0.00 / 0)
Politicians naturally view those who vote third party as the same as those who don't vote.

They assume that those people are largely (dis)satisfied enough with the status quo to not care who gets elected.


The liberal wiki
Send an email to terra@liberalwiki.com


what did the nader vote do? (4.00 / 2)
First, it helped elect Bush, very bad.

Second, a lot of the anger at the DLC, the Blue Dogs, and the Democrats on K Street that Open Left and other progressives rail against resonates with the Naderite critique of the Dems in 2000.  If Nader himself has moved beyond redemption, the drive to clean up the Democratic Party that his campaign spoke to is alive, well, and, most importantly, a lot smarter about the danger of a GOP win.

 


Third parties work when they are reenforcing like Working Families Party in NY (4.00 / 2)
They can coendoerse a major party nominee and occasionally mean the diference beteen victory and defeat.  In order to get the Working Families Party endorsement you need to sign onto their pretty progressive agenda.  Then they work...but in most states and federally, 3rd partiees are not allowed to coendorse; they have to have thier own separate candidates.

They can pull a major party to the left and on th eother side the right.

 

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


You have to be smart about how you coendorse, (0.00 / 0)
Coendorsing Bryan in 1896 pretty much killed the Populist party.

[ Parent ]
I never said it was healthy for the 3rd party (0.00 / 0)
but rather I think it's good for the major party like the Democrats  in terms of making it more progressive

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Weird that you leave out Perot (4.00 / 1)
There are different types of third party movements. (I posted about this above in Chris' third party thread). Perot had a radically different effect than Nader. Ron Paul might have as well, had he run. Lou Dobbs, perhaps, also.

I'd recommend Three's a Crowd, a recent book on the subject, if you're interested. I haven't actually read it yet, but I saw the author speak, and he was extremely interesting.

I support John McCain because children are too healthy anyway.


I Wrote About "Three's A Crowd" (0.00 / 0)
here last September.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Good, but the UK analysis is wrong (4.00 / 2)
The Liberal Democrats are the continuation of the old British Liberal Party that had its heyday in the late 19th century, and was essentially usurped of its role as the party of the left by the then firmly socialist Labour party in the first half of the 20th century. For most of the 20th Century, the Liberals were more of a libertarian party, in US terms, until about the 1970's when they became more moderately centrist between the increasingly more extreme Conservatives under Thatcher and the rise of the left-wing dominance of the Labour party, which helped propel the Liberals from single-digit percentages of the vote to more consistently achieving double digit percentages of the vote.  Soon after the election of Thatcher, some of the Labour party's right wing left Labour to join and alliance with the Liberals that eventually became united under the Liberal Democrats banner. Only during the early part of this decade could the Liberal Democrats seriously be considered to the left of the Labour party due to their firm opposition to the the Iraq war and advocating a more progressive tax system, which incidentally helped them achieve their highest number of seats in recent history.  
However, in very recent years, economically, the Lib Dems have moved to the right, especially among their so-called rising stars, some of whom authored an economic manifesto, the "Orange Book", that is arguably further to the right than even the Conservative party platform.  So it really is difficult to wholly classify the Lib Dems as to being firmly to the left of even the current Labour party.    

Didn't the Lib Dems merge with the Social Dems in the '90s, too? (4.00 / 1)
I think they broke apart later, but I remember there was a temporary fusion/alliance.  That certainly would have pushed the Liberals to the left.

[ Parent ]
The Social Dems were the Labour right-wing offshoot (0.00 / 0)
Their one-time leader, David Owen, was actually rumored to prefer a coalition with the Conservatives over Labour in the case of a hung parliament, as opposed to the Liberal leader, David Steel, who was believed to prefer a coalition with Labour.

[ Parent ]
ok (0.00 / 0)
Thanks.  Got carried away with the pattern I guess.  

[ Parent ]
My understanding (0.00 / 0)
is that since WWII the alliance was more of a middle class party and the Labour was more working class.  This changed as you white when the gang of four left Labour before the '83 election.  

[ Parent ]
For accuracy's sake and not snark it's Five not Six...... (4.00 / 1)
As one of the old guys around here (61), that would be five consecutive defeats of the Republicans before Eisenhower.  1932, 1936, 1940, 1944 (all Roosevelt) and 1948, Truman.  Otherwise, an excellent post.  

ha, caught me (0.00 / 0)
I counted "4 terms of FDR and 2 of Truman" in my head, but yeah, forgot that Truman's first was really FDR's fourth.

Cheers.


[ Parent ]
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