Vice-President: Biden As A Relief

by: Chris Bowers

Thu Aug 14, 2008 at 16:00


After all this talk about Tim Kaine and Evan Bayh as Obama's Vice-President, I find myself strangely relieved to hear that Joe Biden's stock is rising.

I'm just passing on the latest I'm hearing--that Sen. Joe Biden (D-Del.) is moving up on the list of potential running mates for presumptive Democratic nominee Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.). While Obama's heart may go towards Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine--his head takes him to a more experienced pick, a Sen. Evan Bayh (D-Ind.) or Biden, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Now, Biden is far from a perfect choice. For one thing, there would be an issue with choosing a second-tier contender for the nomination, instead of picking Clinton herself. More problematic, Biden voted for the war six years ago, albeit he also voted for an end date on the authorization of military force. As such, he isn't quite Evan Bayh, who helped ram the resolution through, opposed all amendments, and then co-chaired the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq. Still, any Vice-President who supported the war at first will cause message problems for Obama's campaign, and thus is far from perfect.

However, at least Biden is in the center of the Democratic Party, rather it's right flank. Also, he is seasoned as a national campaigner, and an effective surrogate on national media. He excelled in all of the debates back in 2007, and would do well in the VP debate against anyone McCain selects. Also, given his age, he would not be an heir apparent to the nomination in 2012 or 2016. In short, he is competent, not right-wing, and would not have a stanglehold on the party once Obama is gone. I can live with that.

Biden might be the only non-terrible choice on the short list who also appears convincingly "presidential." (Even though I hate using that word, do people here really believe Sebelius as the President of the United States?) If he ends up as Vice-President, I won't be excited, but I will be relieved. Certainly, it would be a lot better than Evan Bayh.

Remember, if you haven't already done so, join the "100,000 Strong Against Evan Bayh for VP" group on Facebook. The group is at 2,500 members now, and growing!
Chris Bowers :: Vice-President: Biden As A Relief

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Vice-President: Biden As A Relief | 64 comments
There is one thing you don't mention .. (4.00 / 3)
as VP .. Biden wouldn't go by (D-MBNA) anymore.  Since he wouldn't be representing Delaware anymore(if he was chosen), I wonder what he'd be like on economic issues since he was always hamstrung by the credit card/bank companies presence in Delaware
Hard to know... (4.00 / 1)
...just how any of these guys would actually govern. One thing about Biden is he has a BIG ego (even by politician standards), so if he were to become president he would probably be bold, looking for a legacy. The only question is about what, in which direction? At least he'd be representing the entire country, not just the 'Incorporation State'...

"Don't take much, does it, elected Democrats, to get your balls tucked up." Cf.
[ Parent ]
Biden? (0.00 / 0)
He's also a serial plagiarist.
Serial? .. (0.00 / 0)
Who/What else did he plagarize besides Neil Kinnock?
[ Parent ]
Yup, there's more besides Kinnock (4.00 / 1)
"A barrage of subsidiary revelations by the press also contributed to Biden's withdrawal: a serious plagiarism incident involving Biden during his law school years; the senator's boastful exaggerations of his academic record at a New Hampshire campaign event; and the discovery of other quotations in Biden's speeches pilfered from past Democratic politicians."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

[ Parent ]
old news (0.00 / 0)
bringing that up is like bringing up McCain's Keating Five business. Very old news.
[ Parent ]
What? (4.00 / 2)
I brought it up because Calvin asked what other plagiarism incidents Biden had aside from the infamous Kinnock quote.
[ Parent ]
I think Keating Five is very relevant (4.00 / 1)

[ Parent ]
you are purposely misleading (0.00 / 0)
"As a part of this controversy, it was revealed that Biden had been involved in a similar incident during his first year at Syracuse University Law School in 1965. Biden initially received an "F" in an introductory class on legal methodology for writing a paper relying almost exclusively on a single Fordham Law Review article, which he had cited. Biden was allowed to repeat the course and passed with high marks.[4] After ending his Presidential campaign, Biden requested the Board of Professional Responsibility of the Delaware Supreme Court review the issue. The Board concluded on December 21, 1987, after Biden had withdrawn, that the senator had not violated any rules, although Biden did not release this result until May 1989.[5]"

[5]

original article at wikipedia

[ Parent ]
Do you have any facts to offer? (4.00 / 1)
As I understand it, once, 20 years ago, Biden used a Neil Kinnock quote several times, attributing it correctly several times, and then failed to attribute it once.  Is this really a character issue?
[ Parent ]
That's The Versailles Whitewash Version (0.00 / 0)
See rayj's comment above.

Biden tried to shrug it off at the time.  If you believe him, I've got a spare bridge on my hands.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
actually it's the true version (4.00 / 2)
And that was later acknowledged and Dukakis was forced to fire the people responsible for the attack.

[ Parent ]
Why not pick Hillary? (0.00 / 0)
I just don't get it. All along we've heard that Obama won't pick Hillary because of her war vote, her DC insider-ism, her negatives, etc. would mess up the Obama campaign narrative.

And yet, we see that Obama is heavily vetting three people who  were big supporters of the war (Bayh was one of the principle architects and a McCain protege). Biden has been in the Senate his entire life and doesn't help move any electoral votes. Let's not forget about his atrocious case of foot-in-mouth disease.

I'm not saying that Hillary is perfect, because she's not. But at least she has a huge nationwide constituency to tap and she's a very effective campaigner.  

Hillary has many downsides (0.00 / 0)
Bill Clinton has been acting like an ass, he won't allow his library to be vetted, it would be yet another election with a Clinton or Bush on the ticket, Hillary's inner circle is filled with cretins like Mark Penn and Wolfson and Lanny Davis, and Hillary would get the right wing even more fired up than they are now.

Oh, and you don't pick a VP who said McCain is qualified to be CiC but you aren't.

[ Parent ]
Bill is the big problem (0.00 / 0)
His ego, his intrusiveness, his business contacts, his contacts of other kinds.

Hillary has a big ego, but it is possible she and Obama could work ok together.  But Bill is an alpha dog and there can be only one in the WH.  (Hint:  right now there is just one and it isn't Jr.)

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
that's how I feel too (4.00 / 3)
I wanted Edwards before the scandal... Clark or Schweitzer would be solid too. Feingold, if we don't care about political calculus and just want to go on principle.

But once Bayh, Nunn, Kaine, and Lieberman started making their rounds... suddenly a lot of other people looked more appealing. Webb, Biden... I might even be open to Clinton if I didn't think her negatives dragged down our ticket.

oh, forgot Richardson. (4.00 / 2)
He's one of my top choices too. I'd celebrate if it were him.
[ Parent ]
Feingold (4.00 / 2)
after he praised McCain to the stars the other day, I wouldn't accept him as a VP. He'd be like Lieberman in the debate, praising McCain instead of attacking him.
[ Parent ]
Feingold wouldn't work or except. (0.00 / 0)
Feingold seems to have a deep personal dislike of Obama.

[ Parent ]
The Only Reason Cretins Like Bayh Exist Is To Make Biden Look Good (0.00 / 0)
But They Don't Succeed.

I'll never forgive Joe Biden for greasing the skids for Clarence Thomas to get on the Supreme Court.

He has a history of hostility to competent black women--not just the women (plural) who were witnesses against Thomas, but also Lani Guinier, Clinton's nominee for Assistant Attorney General to head the Civil Rights Division.  He turned against her based on drinking the rightwing koolaid that completely misrepresented her writings.  That was probably the tipping point that convinced Clinton to withdraw her nomination.

So, no.  I do not see Joe Biden as someone "acceptable."

You do not dis black women the way he does--smart black women who make him look dumb by comparison, I might add--and get a pass from me.  I despise the little toad.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

Ha (4.00 / 3)
"Obama-Biden because they're better than Clinton-Bayh"

In truth this is one of the rare uninspired pragmatic picks that would actually be effective. He's the rare Dem who speaks with confidence and swagger on foreign policy, he was the best debater in the Democratic field, and as a former buddy of McCain, his attacks on character will have a unique bite. Plus the press loves him, because he's actually unsripted (often to his detriment.) Ezra Klein has a pretty good post on him:

Biden is, arguably, the most effective voice Democrats have on foreign policy. And here's why: Joe Biden is an incredibly arrogant jerk. And that's exactly what Democrats need.

Over the years, Biden has gotten some things right and some things wrong. He's been a mainstream liberal on domestic policy, on foreign policy, on judges, on just about everything. Along with Richard Lugar, he pushed a compromise bill that would've slowed the president's rush to war in Iraq, and maybe derailed it entirely. But if Biden sought to outmaneuver the president, he didn't simply oppose him outright. Since then, however, he's been considerably more outspoken, and has pushed some smartly strategic approaches, including calling for the repeal of the 2002 Iraq War Resolution. "We gave the president that power to destroy Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and, if necessary, to depose Saddam Hussein. The WMD were not there. Saddam Hussein is no longer there. The 2002 authorization is no longer relevant to the situation in Iraq...[We need a resolution that] makes clear what the mission of our troops is."

In the 2008 election, he was the only Democrat who really figured out how to talk about Republicans and foreign policy. All the other candidates on the stage started from the presumption that Republicans were strong on national security, and voters needed to be convinced of their failures and then led to a place of support for a Democratic alternative. Biden dispensed with all that. He started from the position that Republicans had been catastrophic failures on foreign policy, and their ongoing claims to competence and leadership should be laughed at, and even mocked.

When Rudy Giuliani said, simply, "America will be safer with a Republican president," Obama responded with a traditional, more-in-sadness-than-in-anger statement. "Rudy Giuliani today has taken the politics of fear to a new low and I believe Americans are ready to reject those kind of politics. America's mayor should know that when it comes to 9/11 and fighting terrorists, America is united." The release goes on in this way for eight more lines.

Biden, by contrast, laughed at Giuliani. He mocked him. "The irony is, Rudy Giuliani, probably the most underqualified man since George Bush to seek the presidency, is here talking about any of the people here," said Biden at one of the debates. "Rudy Giuliani... I mean, think about it! Rudy Giuliani. There's only three things he mentions in a sentence -- a noun, a verb, and 9/11. There's nothing else!"

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/b...

So I'm with Chris. Although Biden hasn't done anything extraordinary in his 57 years in DC except take gasbaggery to extraordinary heights, I'd be relieved.

Call it the soft bigotry of low expectations


[ Parent ]
Clark Does All That Much Better (4.00 / 1)
With none of the baggage I discussed.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3
[ Parent ]
Sure, but Versailles still stands (4.00 / 1)
The Overton window isn't there for Clark yet and Obama doesn't look to have the political courage.

It'd be nice if Biden weren't an acceptable pick, but we've got to play with the cards we've been dealt before we can unstack the deck.

And that is the reason why Biden might be a tolerable pick.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

[ Parent ]
Well, yeah, true (4.00 / 2)
Although people might forget that Biden also is well-versed on economic issues, and plays on his modest background to speak to people's pain in an effective way. Which is to say he'll be able to attack McCain on the economy as well as foreign policy. The guy's a pro.

I don't want to overstate the case--he's Joe frickin Biden--but if he gets picked, I think we'll all enjoy his hard-hitting one liners and the spectacle of him debating Tim Pawlenty or Mittens about Iraq and Iran and everything else,

In fact, he'd become a hero in the netroots, which, let's face it, prefers pugilism to progressivism.

[ Parent ]
if you say so. (0.00 / 0)
Looking at the clips on you tube the last couple of months suggest otherwise to me.
[ Parent ]
Yeah (0.00 / 0)
And Clark has the same chance of become VP as Mike Gravel does.

For the last time. Wes Clark is NOT going to be VP. He has said he won't even be in the country for the convention.

CLARK IS NOT A VP OPTION!

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power

[ Parent ]
Agree with you on this (0.00 / 0)
That's why I've been thinking lately that Biden would get it, because he is the one who can really, really call McCain out on nat security issues.  The media likes him too.  And I've been wondering if Bayh is being floated precisely because he would make Biden look good.  (Daschle is the other one who I think is really in the running.)  I think Biden would be reassuring to older voters and to people in fopo circles.  That's important with McCain losing his marbles over Georgia and the possible outbreak of a new Cold or maybe even Hot(!!!) War with Russia.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.
[ Parent ]
2 is a history? (0.00 / 0)
Do you have examples of other black women he's dissed, and if not, is a sample size of 2 sufficient to imply he's a racist?  And you call him little, I think he's over 6 feet.  Are you a "sizist", and over 6-5 yourself?

If you cite the 'articulate' comment, my mother once said that (she's 84) and she's no racist.  

[ Parent ]
Plan all along? (4.00 / 3)
Float some real downers, and then pick someone that's not all that exciting, but at least provides relief?
Wow (4.00 / 2)
What a horrible, horrible way to lead a "new political movement."

Yeah, let's demoralize and needlessly provoke my base of supporters with a really horrible VP choice only to turn around and pick a guy that is only 78% as bad as the other guy.

That's a real confidence booster.

[ Parent ]
Didn't say it was good... (0.00 / 0)
But seriously, that's the way this has been going.  There haven't been many popular VP choices on Obama's short list.
[ Parent ]
I think it's been clear for some time (0.00 / 0)
that Obama is just another typical politician.

[ Parent ]
Wow, indeed (0.00 / 0)
You're criticizing Obama for someone's GUESS as to his strategy, for a choice that he hasn't yet made.

Is it any wonder why we lose so often?

[ Parent ]
we lose so often (0.00 / 0)
because we keep nominating terrible candidates.
[ Parent ]
Bull. (4.00 / 1)
there is and was nothing wrong with our candidates. The republican candidates certainly weren't any better. But they an easier message to sell. There is nothing complicated about running a fear based message.
[ Parent ]
No way. (0.00 / 0)
That would both be insulting to Bayh, who Obama will need as soon as he is president as to his own and Bayh's supporters who Obama needs to get elected.

Why would Obama do that?

[ Parent ]
As an aside... (4.00 / 1)
Where the hell are the anti-McCain books, and why aren't they getting nearly as much coverage as this completely debunked garbage of a book?
McCain's An Honorable Man... (4.00 / 3)
... who would never do any of the things those books accuse him of.  I know this because we had a good laugh about it over BBQ last week.  Real Americans don't care about these frivolous accusations against a decorated war hero who was tortured in a POW camp.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go to Karl Rove's cocktail party.  He always has interesting information!

[ Parent ]
There are a couple (4.00 / 1)
The Real McCain by Cliff Schechter and
Free Ride:  John McCain and the Media by David Brock.

Schechter's book has the one about him calling his wife a c*nt and other outbursts of temper.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
I haven't seen anyone mention this in the media, I don't think... (0.00 / 0)
And not only that, I don't remember them hitting #1 on the NYT list... No organization around doing this.  We complain about Republicans buying in "bulk" to get on the list... why don't Democrats do the same rather than just complain about it?
[ Parent ]
So... (4.00 / 4)
Who would be acceptable to all of you? What choice would please the greatest number of people here? Personally I would love to see Sherrod Brown.  
me too (4.00 / 1)
but don't think it's gonna happen.

Clark is about the best I can hope for at this point.  

[ Parent ]
As time has passed (4.00 / 1)
I've turned more and more pro-Biden.  The fact that he isn't as "changy" as Sebelius or Kaine or Richardson doesn't mean much to me. His combination of experience, debate skills, and -- most important -- attack dog skills make him a home run pick in my opinion.

As long as he watches his mouth and saves his fire for McCain and Bush, he'd be a great pick. Bayh, meanwhile, would be another Lieberman, and I don't think Sebelius would win her debate.

Nothing Says "Change" Like... (4.00 / 2)
Joe Biden?

At least he's charismatic, in a slimey lawyer sort of way.

I look forward to him helping deliver Delaware's 3 solid blue electoral votes in the Fall too.  

A Charismatic Newt (0.00 / 0)
At least he's charismatic, in a slimey lawyer sort of way.

We're talking "Gingrich" here.  The salamanders' cousins, OTOH, are absolutely magnetic in comparison to Biden.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
you know, (0.00 / 0)
You might want to consider that your opinion of biden might be a bit warped due to your personal perception of him and not as universal valid.
[ Parent ]
Yes, It's Warped (0.00 / 0)
It's warped by listening intently to the entire Clarence Thomas hearings almost 20 years ago.  And then noting how his subsequent behavior repeatedly underscored the same eggregious character flaws that that hearing revealed.

Paying close attention to something that others are only casually following will often "warp" one's perceptions.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I reluctantly agree (4.00 / 1)
I never thought I would be Biden' my time.

What a revolting development this is.

John McCain doesn't care about Vets.


Someone else entirely... (4.00 / 1)
I think these names that have been floated roughly every week for the last month or so are just misdirection from the Obama camp. Nunn, Dodd, Kaine, Bayh, and Biden have all been en vogue for at least a few days recently and I don't think it's gonna be any of them. They are deliberately directing attention away from their real short list. Hell, my guess is they've already decided. So, rather than look at the names that have been popping up recently, let's look at the people who started as favorites and make real sense, but haven't been a part of the recent conversations. If I had to rank the most likely choices, I'd say:

1) Sebelius
2) Clark
3) Schweitzer
4) Richardson

Richardson is not in contention (0.00 / 0)
He has a problem involving relations with women.  He is not under contention.  He wasn't that good as a campaigner either.

Of people not on the list I'd say Daschle or Corzine.  On the list I'd say Biden.

Just a hunch.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
a surprise pick (0.00 / 0)
If he will go with Daschle, who is terrible re: message skills, why not just go with Bill Bradley?  That would blow people's minds.  Obviously he's bad on the trail/at the game, but he fits some other boxes.
[ Parent ]
Bradley said no (0.00 / 0)
He was another early thought of mine but I read somewhere he said no.  Of course so did Daschle, but since he is in Obama's inner circle, I take that with a grain of salt.  I'm going by what Obama said--someone who he feels comfortable with and who can help him govern, not who I would want him to pick (I no longer have a favorite).

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.
[ Parent ]
Biden is speaking for Obama at the firefighter's union (4.00 / 1)
Biden is addressing their union to accept their endorsement of Obama.  I thought that was curious since Dodd received their endorsement during the primaries and Dodd was one of Obama's earliest primary opponents to endorse him.  

Biden is great at debate and being the attack dog.  With McCain ratcheting up the negative attacks, Biden could go on the offensive while keeping Obama's hands clean. Since Biden held off on endorsing Obama, he wouldn't upset any of the Hillary supporters.  He'd also be great in working with congress.  He knows the system.

The placement of two senators on a ticket could be a negative.  Biden is also pretty polarizing.  Folks either love him or hate him.  He has supported some corporate legislation like the bankruptcy bill.  However, when I looked at his record, he wasn't as bad on corporate regulation as some other potential choices.  He's also known as one of the biggest hawks among Democrats.  That may serve to mute some of the attacks on Obama about his emphasis on diplomacy over the Neocon approach but might hurt him among folks who like the realist approach.

Biden wouldn't be an exciting choice but wouldn't be a deal breaker either.

John McCain wants to put SS in hedge funds.

Eh? (4.00 / 1)
Biden's statements are about as far removed from the Neocon approach as can be this cycle. I can't think of any foreign policy expert that backed and reinforced Obama's approach more.
[ Parent ]
There was article on Democratic hawks at the start of the Iraq war (0.00 / 0)
Biden, Clinton, Edwards, and Richardson were included in that article. Half our primary candidates this cycle were listed.  Biden, in addition to originally vocally supporting the Iraq war, was also probably the biggest proponent of US involvement in Kosovo.  He also has been a big proponent of sending US troops into Darfur.   He, like Richardson and Edwards, quickly shifted their support for the Iraq war after it was clear that it was debacle and they posed no threat. With the exception of Iraq, he has proposed using our troops  to control genocide. I don't believe he's a Neocon. By hawk, I mean that he turns towards a military solution more quickly than most Democrats.  

John McCain wants to put SS in hedge funds.
[ Parent ]
Ah, (0.00 / 0)
being a hawk for me means actively increasing or defending USA interests through military force when it is perceived possible so our definitions slightly differ. But it is true that Biden conforms to your definition.

Personally I can certainly see huge merits in some uses of the military like in Kosovo and Darfur. But Biden has also a good track record of championing soft power and multilateral solutions and looking at diplomatic solutions holistically. So I would certainly qualify him as an interventionist and those are usually more inclined to use the military then average.

As far as I can see the underlying pattern of Obama's foreign policy he actually shares that trait with Biden. But that could just be the pressures of the campaign.

I think simply misread you because we seem to be in agreement.

...

Even on his negatives... :)

[ Parent ]
Sebelius (4.00 / 3)
do people here really believe Sebelius as the President of the United States?

sure. quite easily, really. i don't know if she could get elected, but that's a different thing from being able to do the job. as we have seen to our dismay.

are there reasons not to believe it? not a rhetorical question, i'm wondering what they might be.

not everything worth doing is profitable. not everything profitable is worth doing.

yeah (0.00 / 0)
What was that supposed to mean? That it's hard to imagine her starting a war? That she won't look good standing on a battleship?
[ Parent ]
Biden, dodd, clark ,etcetera (0.00 / 0)
They are all the same.

The liberal wiki
Send an email to terra@liberalwiki.com
Kos is reporting that.... (0.00 / 0)
....Biden, Richardson, and Bayh already have speaking slots at the convention, so they're out.

Hmmmm.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyo...

*Potentially* out, rather...sched could change. But interesting nonetheless. (0.00 / 0)
nm
anecdotally, for the record (0.00 / 0)
In talking to my family (mostly white middle-class Catholics, or in other words, swing voters/"Reagan Democrats"), I've discovered they'd be significantly more enthused about voting/working for Obama if Biden is on the ticket. He's a charismatic guy who talks a great game and seems to have an appeal to the white middle. I agree with the initial post that, despite his flaws, his selection would be a relief considering most of the other names bouncing around.

So Biden would be OK. I'd prefer Clark, and I'd be fine with Clinton as well (and maybe even a little excited). Few of the others do anything for me at all.

I won't jump for joy with Biden (4.00 / 1)
but I'm with you, he's not a bad choice. He's great on TV and will kill the Republican in the VP debates. And frankly he wouldn't be a horrible VP in office. He's got a big ego but he's also one of the smartest senators in Washington and has a fantastic grip of policy. And I think he could emerge to be fairly progressive VP.

Plus at 73 I doubt he'd run for president. And if he did he would be old enough that we could beat him in a primary if needed.  

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power

Joe Biden gives Obama the bounce (0.00 / 0)
Before the DNC Convention
After the DNC Convention- Biden and Obama will give great speeches at the convention.
After the 3 Presidential and 1 Vice Presidential Debates. McCain is a poor debater and Biden is an excellent debater.

Obama is favored to win all of the Gore/Kerry states including MI,PA,IA,NM,and NH. 264 ev.

Biden is acceptable in states like Ohio,Virginia,Nevada,and Colorado,and Montana.

IF Biden is Obama's VP runningmate and Holy Joe Lieberman is McCain's runningmate- Watching the VP debates will be fun to watch. Biden will kill Lieberman or who ever McCain picks in the debates.

Obama can have foreign policy experts Biden,Clark,and Richardson in his administration.
Biden as Vice President.
Clark as Secretary of Defense
Richardson as Secretary of State.


Vice-President: Biden As A Relief | 64 comments
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