We're So Lame

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 09:37


Here's a list of people involved in politics, most of them prominent bloggers, some with other political accomplishments as writers and activists spanning decades, one (Jennifer Nix) a publisher responsible for helping bring two important voices to printed prominence--George Lakoff and Glenn Greenwald.  So what do the following people have in common?
Chris Bowers
Mike Lux
Matt Stoller
Jennifer Nix
Pam Spaulding
Frederick Clarkson
Howie Klein
George Lakoff
Brian Leubitz
  
Vincent Bugliosi
Duncan Black
Amanda Marcotte
Rick Perlstein
  
Answer: They're all lame.

Or at least that's what a number of commentators insisted this week, as their vociferous complaints dominated the discussion in the diary, "100,000 Strong Against Evan Bayh for VP" Off To Good Start--You Can Help".

A few samples:

  • "If Obama wants to win, he's not going to take a facebook page seriously"
  • "Obama is trying to win an election.  You on the other hand are just trying to show off how cool you are."
  • "Giving people the impression that activism comes at the click of a mouse is totally deserving of mockery."
  • "Joining a facebook page is no effort.  And it deserves no respect."

In response, Mark Matson observed :

Time Well Spent

Funny how it is such a waste of time to join a Facebook group, which took me roughly 30 seconds this morning, but apparently well worth the time to write paragraph after paragraph criticizing people for joining the group.

It reminds me of someone watching someone else playing a video game and then, after an hour or so, criticizing the video game player of wasting his time.  Perhaps, sure, but not compared to the guy who didn't even play.

This could just be just another trivial example of the endless foibles of humanity.  But I think there's something a bit more significant in the mix as well.

Paul Rosenberg :: We're So Lame
After a few fruitless go-rounds of arguing at cross-purposes, I reached the conclusion that rational argument was going nowhere.  Whenever this happens, one thing I consider is shifting focus from the reasons given to the motives.  Given the ludicrous contradiction Mark pointed out, why are they doing this?

Of course it's unfair to simply ignore people's arguments and skip directly to questioning motives.  In fact, doing so invariably constitutes some form of fallacious reasoning, and I was immediately accused of this.  It's called "ad hominem"--against the man.  But like virtually all the fallacies, this one derives its power from the fact that it's based on a valid principle that's misapplied.

All other things being equal, the source of arguments is a good heuristic indicator of how seriously they should be taken, and people do have a strong tendency to consistent fall into patterns of making certain kinds of arguments, with characteristic strengths and/or weaknesses.  People who persistent argue in bad faith are an extreme example, and we are well justified in distrusting or even disregarding everything they say as simply a waste of our time and energy.

We err, however, when we turn this valid heuristic principle into an assumed fact with which to dismiss an argument as false without even looking at it.  This is how a valid heuristic principle becomes a fallacious form of argument.  (Note: it is still valid to dismiss an argument as not worth our time, for example.  We don't have to refute every false claim in Corsi's book, or even read someone else's refutation.  This is a valid heuristic for determining what's worth our time and serious attention and what is not.)

There are a number of related fallacies here.  The genetic fallacy simply rejects an argument because of where it comes from, the appeal to authority and appeal to tradition accept it for the same reason, the ad hominem rejects an argument and attacks or criticized the one making it, etc.

I go into this background detail as a way of indicating that I don't take it lightly when I set aside the arguments people are making to shift attention to motive.  Even the worst of motives can still lead to valid arguments, so caution is always called for.

But here we had a case of sustained ridicule out of all proportion for what was being proposed.  No one was arguing that this was the most effective form of activism ever invented.  It was simply, as Mark pointed out, something that need take no more than thirty seconds, and more worth doing something than nothing.  That was all we were arguing.  The venom we encountered--though mild by internet standards--was simply out of all proportion to the proposed action.

Some of it, of course, derived from reflexive defense of Obama whatever he chose to do--a form of authoritarian submission that's no doubt depressing to see, particularly on the left, but hardly new or surprising.  And some, slightly different, derived from a form of authoritarian aggression--attacking those who dare question anything Obama might do.

While both these motives are disturbing, to say the least, I view them primarily as correlates of rightwing authoritarianism (RWA), which is well-documented to exist across the political spectrum, even though it tends to be more common on the right, a tendency that grows increasingly stronger as people beceom more political involved.  There is relatively little one can do about such attitudes in the short run, aside from not giving much power or authority to those who have them.

However, there are two alternative forms of explanation that deserve our attention.  First is the fact that environmental factors can readily overpower individual attitudinal ones.  Put simply, in a threatening environment, even those who are not particularly authoritarian in their basic attitudes may adopt authoritarian positions for a time.  Thus, some of the authoritarian submission we see may well not derive from a basic authoritarian orientation.  It may simply reflect an understandable fear that we could be facing another 4 years of wildly reckless Republican governance.

The second explanation is more a more complicated one, not necessarily wholly separate.  This one focuses on more narrowly on the form of action itself, and the vehement accusations of futility.  It is not so much--or even at all--about the content of the activism, and can be expressed by someone who despises Evan Bayh.  This is what I honed in one myself, when I wrote:

As Someone Who's Walked Precincts, Done GOTV and Gone To Jail

among other forms of activism over the past 40+ years, I'm well aware that this is not a big deal.

But neither is picking up the phone and calling your congressmember. That doesn't mean it has no effect, muich less that it's worthy of mockery. Especially when done by thousands and thousands of people.

It sounds to me like you have serious self-esteem issues.  If you really knew how important what you're doing is, and you felt secure in it, you wouldn't feel any need to denigrate others you don't even know.

Or, maybe you just had a bad day.

Hopefully the latter.

Self-esteem was foremost in my mind at the time, given the intensity of the put-downs being voiced.  Such contempt for others one does not even know--others like Vincent Bugliosi, George Lakoff, Mike Lux and Dunacn Black, whose long-term seriousness of purpose ought to be recognized by all--drew my attention to issues of self-esteem.

But there was something else, broader going on as well, as I pointed out in a later comment:

I think that a lot of people are feeling ineffectual, because, in fact, it's objectively true that individuals are less effectual than they were earlier on.  There are less people out there who are persuadable, it's harder to reach them, and at the same time, the campaign is perceptibly responding more to people that don't support it than it is to its base.  This has to take a psychological toll, particularly if one denies what is going on.  Being conscious is invariably better, as it allows for coping mechanisms.  Lashing out at others as "ineffectual" is clearly indicative of projection, and not being on top of the toll it is taking.

I think this is a very real, very deep problem that tens upon thousands of activists are facing.  And the two-fold root of this problem is quite simple.  One is structural and unavoidable: in any election cycle, early persuasion is always easier, and early activism is always more visibly rewarded for the same sorts of mundane activities that the vast majority of us are engaged in.

But the second factor is particular to this campaign.  Put simply, Obama's great appeal, the reason he is the nominee, is because he is different, because he represents change, because he promises to break the mold and offer new possibilities.  However, ever since he clinched the nomination, his campaign has increasingly been about the exact opposite of all this.  It's not just about "moving to the center," but about moving toward "tried and true" conventional positions.

As Matt noted in his diary, "Democratic National Security is For the Boys",

Here's who is representing the face of the party on national security.
  • Former President Clinton
  • Gov. Bill Richardson, New Mexico
  • Sen. Evan Bayh, Indiana
  • Sen. Joe Biden, Delaware
  • Sen. Jay Rockefeller, West Virginia
  • Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Nevada
  • Sen. Ken Salazar, Colorado
  • House Majority Whip James E. Clyburn, South Carolina
  • Rep. Patrick Murphy, Pennsylvania
  • Iraq war veteran Tammy Duckworth
  • VP Pick
So unless the VP is a woman, the 'Security America's Future' evening features four Senators who voted for the war in Iraq, one ex-President who supported the war in Iraq, one Congressman who voted against the war in Iraq, one Governor who opposed the war in Iraq, one Congressman who served in Iraq and voted for war funding, and one veteran who served in Iraq, ran a divisive primary and got crushed in a general election.  There are no grassroots antiwar progressives on there and there is ONLY one woman.

What exactly did Evan Bayh do to deserve to represent himself as a leader on national security?  And Joe Biden?  And Ken Salazar?  And Rockefeller?  Really?  All of these people got the big decision wrong, but they are tied together by a willingness to preen around as serious boys who like guns.

Moreoever, the one woman on stage that night, Tammy Duckworth, though she represents a laudable and important commitment to veterans, also represents an explicit repudiation of grassroots antiwar progressives.

This lineup--indeed, the very fact that we even have a whole night devoted to "national security" rather then "restoring America's economy" or "clean energy for our children's future" or (God forbid!) "restoring the Constitution"--is an almost total repudiation of the very foundation of Obama's career on the national stage, and all those ordinary American citizen-activists who enabled his rise. Yes, he had consultants, and fundraisers and all the rest, too, but what set him apart was that vast sea of citizen-activists whose hopes are being directly contradicted by the campaign Obama is now running.

What am I suggesting in place of the above line-up, you might ask?  Well, aside from a totally different focus, as noted above (Or how about a night of "Republicans for Obama", if one must "show strength"? They could easily be much more progressive than the lineup presented above), why not feature someone like Andrew Bacevich, the conservative veteran who held forth so powerfully for the entire program on Bill Moyers Journal last night?

I'm not asking for Ron Kovic, because Bacevich looks the part and has the background of a Republican elder, and would say almost the exactly same thing, at bottom, as Kovic would say.

Heck, at this point, Sun Tzu would say the same thing as Kovic would say.

There is simply no denying that the Obama campaign has fundamentally abandoned the basic premise of its original rationale for being.  Whether the governance that follows will continue this trajectory, or turn back towards its origins, we cannot say.  But the sense of individual impotence in the face of such a turnabout is something that simply cannot be denied.  Denying it simply means that you will lash out at others, projecting your own sense of powerless onto them.

The way forward can only lie with acknowledging that sense of impotence, and then resolving to do something about it.  There should be no doubt that however compromised the Obama campaign is, the alternative is infinitely worse.  So the question is not about whether one should continue to support the campaign.  Rather, it is about how to organize against the tendencies that have to dominate it of late.  And this is a question that will be with us for the duration of an Obama presidency--and even afterwards.

It's best to start owning our own sense of powerlessness.  That is the only path that leads, eventually, back to our own true power.


Tags: , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
We're So Lame | 76 comments
well said, as per usual (4.00 / 4)

and now, let pie fight continue.

I'm glad it's done


Is it a waste of time? (0.00 / 0)
Maybe not in the grand scheme of things, but then something that takes 30 seconds to do is also not entitled to all that much weight, and one can never be sure if or to what degree the signatories actually support the stated goal - that is the fundamental weakness of all petition drives.

Also, for those who set up the page, I suggest that next time they consider their messaging a little more - using a number in connection with the petition drive is a bad idea unless they are certain to get that number, because the inability to reach that number is going to be treated as a failure of the movement.  Let's assume that there are 25,000 supporters (which seems unobtainable at the moment).  Instead of someone saying, "hey look, the anti-Bayh drive got 25,000 signatories," the cw would be "the anti-Bayh organizers expected 100,000 supporters, and they only got a quarter of that."  Food for thought.


I want to congraulate you for getting some women on that list (0.00 / 0)
Not quite 22% that Matt Stoller lists on the democratic security is for the boys posting but 15% is better than I expected.

The liberal wiki
Send an email to terra@liberalwiki.com


Still ample room for improvement ... (0.00 / 0)
Spot-checking, the group appears to be somewhere around 25-35% women.   This is relatively low given that women are a majority both within the Democratic party and on Facebook.

Something that's really striking, looking at the how did you find this group?" thread: virtually all of the references came from posts by guys.  (Several people came from digby and Pam's House Blend, both of which are run by women, but the actual posts there were by dday and me respectively -- both guys.)  Maybe this is just an issue that appeals more to guys ... some of the other candidates are certainly worse than Bayh in terms of sexism.  

Still, looking forward, it's something that progressives clearly need to do a better job with.


[ Parent ]
I Just Skimmed Through Looking For Names I Recognized (0.00 / 0)
that I thought others would know.  There was no effort to strike any sorts of demographic balance.  I just wanted some names of folks that people would know aren't lame.  Then I realized that folks might not know who Jennifer Nix is (shame on them!) so I decided I should explain, briefly.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I didn't mean to be critical ... (0.00 / 0)
And I was pretty delighted to be in the same company as the people you listed -- I thought it was a great list!  I was just digging in to try to get an impression of the overall numbers.  

For what it's worth, roughly half the "officers" and 1/3 of the "admins" of the group are women.


[ Parent ]
Oh, I Didn't Mind (0.00 / 0)
Just trying to be transparent is all.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
I've said it already but, (4.00 / 4)
when one of your critics accused you of "distracting people from real, meaningful action," the only real meaningful action I have been distracted from is putting my head in the oven.

And I'm only being half-facetious. Given the choice between despair and action, even a small, seemingly inconsequential action is the better choice. How can it be otherwise?

Nor am I convinced that the facebook action is entirely inconsequential. I am devotee of Gene Sharp, and to me the facebook action looks like nothing so much as a threat to withdraw the sources of political power. If Obama and his staff do not yet understand how that sort of thing works, they are fixing to find out.

Montani semper liberi


Inconsequential action is worse than none at all (0.00 / 0)
Sadie: if inconsequential distraction was better than despair, then heroin addiction would be a logical response to the problems of life. Despair serves a purpose only if it motivates meaningful action, not if it is temporarily assuaged by shiny objects.

Paul: to clarify my original mockery (and my apologies if the tone prevented the meaning from coming through), here is the general argument.
Petitions are a quick feel-good, but sometimes a half-assed action is worse than no action. It's not that it takes very long to join a facebook group, it doesn't. It's the false sense of having "done" something that is counterproductive. But who knows, maybe getting the group covered in the MSM means it actually got noticed, and who am I to say that Obama really wasn't on the fence about Evan Bayh, and this pushed him back from the brink. Kind of hard to imagine, though...don't you think?

Finally, as long as we're doing armchair psychoanalysis: one who accuses those who disagree with him of having an "authoritarian mindset" is one who lacks a sense of irony.


[ Parent ]
Good One! (0.00 / 0)
Me, lacking a sense of irony!  

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!  

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Well (4.00 / 1)
what do you expect from someone who takes their pseudonym from a feminine hygiene product?

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
Good Point! (0.00 / 0)
The irony sweepsteaks is getting so hard to keep track of that actually handicapping it is totally out of the question.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Try again. (4.00 / 1)
The choices are not inconsequential action versus nothing.

The choices are :

1) Click on a button that says "join this group"
2) Stick my head in the oven because the Democrats have once again nominated an empty suit

Now tell me which is better? That is, if the heroine isn't affecting you too badly this morning.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
You still don't get it. (0.00 / 0)
If you really think those are the choices, I feel sorry for you.

Anyway I'm done with this circle jerk. Have fun patting each other on the back when Obama doesn't pick Evan Bayh...which he was never going to anyway.


[ Parent ]
No need to feel sorry for me. (0.00 / 0)
Like I said, I've got a coping mechanism and it works  fine. Action.

How about you, what are you going to do when Obama lets you down? Have you got a plan for that? Because you can only move the goalposts so many times and still look at yourself in the morning.

When that day comes, you know where to find me.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Role of public opinion (4.00 / 1)
Prof Bacevich stressed the importance of an active and involved public. One example he used is America's lack of meaningful support for the troops, not car magnets, not rote verbiage. He wasn't telling Bill Moyers and we the viewers exactly how this is to be done, but individual responsibility was mentioned fairly often.

The role of public opinion is a theme covered in David Zarefsky's book, Lincoln, Douglas and Slavery: In the Crucible of Public Debate, eventually quoting Lincoln's idea that "he who moulds public sentiment goes deeper than he who enacts statutes or pronounces decisions."

The seven Lincoln-Douglas debates, covered by the press as they were, became a vehicle for focusing and forming public opinion on the issue of slavery. Lincoln came to realize that he had a way forward by gaining the public sentiment "that slavery was on the way out," and that that judgment would eventually result in its abolition.

Lincoln could not be elected on a platform of immediate abolition, so he used his wits and asked his listeners to reason logically, morally, and historically, with him.


Yeah, really (4.00 / 4)
As well as the quality of people involved, there's the coverage we've gotten -- getting our side of the story out, and generally framed as "progressives oppose Bayh".  If Bayh isn't nominated, this will go down as a significant success for progressives, flexing our muscles online as we get steadily better at activism on social networks.

How can rational people discount all of that and argue that there's no effect?  It's not just here, of course; there were similar comments on dKos and pretty much everywhere else this story got discussed ... One of the reasons that Deborah Pierce and I decided to write Tales from the Net is that there's so much fear of social networks out there, and this is a great example to look at it in some kind of detail.

One thing I think is going on is a very deep lack of understanding of Facebook.  When I polled people on OpenLeft, two-thirds didn't use Facebook, and almost none of them were willing to experiment with it as part of an activism campaign.  Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of reasons to dislike Facebook; it's Orwellian, privacy-invasive, and creepy in a lot of ways ... however, as people all over the world are discovering, it's also an incredibly powerful tool for activism.  Most people aren't aware of the most successful examples so far: April's strike in Egypt, which has the government so concerned they're considering banning Facebook; the anti-FARC rallies sponsored by Voces Contra Las FARC that went from a Facebook group to millions of people in the streets in a couple of months.  

On top of that, a lot of people bristle because it appears that "it's too easy".  Sure, clicking to join the group is easy, but that by itself doesn't lead to success.  Creating the message and packaging the story so that it's likely to catch on, and then getting the word out by blogging, email, invites, phone calls ... these all take time.  When a campaign's successful, there's a huge amount of overhead that comes with it: with Get FISA Right, various people put their lives on hold for days or weeks.  So once again, this reflects a lack of awareness on the critic's part.

A more rational reaction here would be to say "I don't understand".  Why do Facebook, and other social networks, have this amplifying effect?  What are the situations in which something as easy as joining a Facebook group can be aggregated to have such an impact?  Progressives have the early lead using these technologies, and because of their non-hierarchical and power-redistributive nature they may well favor progressives and libertarians generally; how do we build on these initial successes.

Instead, I see people lashing out, and letting their prejudices about Facebook and other social networks close them off to the possibilities.  It's sad to see people using the same kind of language here that the skeptics used about blogs in 2002-2004.  Oh well.  Their loss.


Precisely. (4.00 / 2)
I look at the facebook thing and I see a simple, straightforward message:

"There are a lot of us, and we move quickly. We talk to each other."

Now that is something that, if a person is running for office, you'd think they would want to know. Good or bad, they should know. If nothing else, the group that mobilizes quickly to oppose Bayh today is also capable of mobilizing quickly to harry recalcitrant Congress members when they get in Obama's way tomorrow.

I can't help but think he is smart enough to know that.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Exactly! (4.00 / 2)

"There are a lot of us, and we move quickly. We talk to each other."

Now that is something that, if a person is running for office, you'd think they would want to know. Good or bad, they should know. If nothing else, the group that mobilizes quickly to oppose Bayh today is also capable of mobilizing quickly to harry recalcitrant Congress members when they get in Obama's way tomorrow.

I can't help but think he is smart enough to know that.

 

The database at myBarackObama doesn't turn into a pumpkin the day after the election.



John McCain thinks we haven't spent enough time in Iraq

[ Parent ]
This Really Is Comical, If It Weren't So Tragic (0.00 / 0)
The depth of misunderstanding seems to be directly proportional to the intensity of hostility.

No, wait, I take that back.  I think it's more likely that the hostility goes up exponentially with the depth of misunderstanding.

Think we can design a quick-and-dirty experiment to find out if the relationship is linear or exponential?

And are there, perhaps other terms in the equation related to age, or rightwing authoritarianism?  Or are the too small to be deteceted above the level of noise?

Gosh, Jon.  Sounds like we've got ourselves a whole little research program, just spun off of one casual remark.

So much to explore. So little time.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Re: This Really Is Comical, If It Weren't So Tragic (0.00 / 0)
Well, I wouldn't say the research program comes just from the one remark ... it's something that Deborah's been working on with the online civil liberties community for two and a half years now -- her first talk on this was at Andrea Matwyshyn's Data Devolution Workshop in January 2006.

Age does have a role in that these technologies are much more innate to people in the 26-and-under range ("Generation Facebook"), and are learned behavior to old folks like me.  Facebook demographics "skew young", with about half the people under 30ish.  Still, looking at the list of group members you highlighted, this clearly isn't a bar to participation.  And again, from a rational perspective, this is a great way to work collaboratively with younger voters and activists -- clearly a huge part of the progressive movement going forward.  

At some level I think it's mostly a reluctance for people to get out of their comfort zone.  Some of it's just the technology; like a lot of people, I've spent years working primarily with email and Word documents and (more recently) blogs and IM, and there's a huge learning curve for this new medium -- it'll be a long time before I get to mastery.  If you don't have the time or energy, or don't like learning new technologies, this can be very off-putting.

On top of that, social networks are typically an even more transparent environment on blogs; many people find themselves very threatening.  When Deborah first started doing social network activism (on tribe.net), one of her colleagues responded "you're so brave!"  When people aren't secure with themselves, or are nervous about interacting with different people, again this leads to barriers.

Again, this isn't to deny that there are good reasons to be wary about social networks.  Facebook has repeatedly violated their users privacy (last week featured a class-action suit about their Beacon targeted advertising); MySpace and everybody else have their own problems.  And they're primarily run by corporations whose primary interest is profits.  [At least for now -- it'll be interesting to see what kind of an impact change.org and Avaaz, social networks more directly focused on activism, have.]  

Still, looking at it in terms of turning the tools of oppression against the system ... these are some damn fine tools.


[ Parent ]
My personal (okay, crackpot) theory (0.00 / 0)
is that facebook, and networks in general, represent the triumph of Eros over Logos, and all that that implies. It's a world in which connection is always possible, which is either heartening, or terrifying, depending on where you're coming from.

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
That Was JOKE, Son (0.00 / 0)
My little "research project" merely referred to the exponential vs. linear nature of the misunderstanding/hostility function and related matters. I'm sure that's just a pimple on the hindquarters of what Deborah's been working on.

But, more generally, I can certainly identify with the whole "comfort zone" thing.  The older I get, the less energy I have for getting into yet another whole new thing, when I still feel like there's so much room to explore in the older domains--which don't really feel all that old to me.

So, I'm just nibbling at edges of Facebook right now.  We'll see about where it goes and how long it takes.

The thing I don't have is innate hostility.  It's fine with me if there are things I'm not into that others are totally engrossed with.  I've just never understood the mentality that says "people all have to like the same things I do."  Even stuff that I think is really dumb, I'm sure has value for someone.

Heck, Alanis Morrisette was a Tiffany-style pop star in Canada before she moved to the states and became who she is.  Who am I to judge her earlier incarnation?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Well said Jon. (4.00 / 2)

Young people, the first time voters of today and the future voters of 2010 and 2012 and the rest of the century are on Facebook and MySpace and other social networks.  Learning how to reach them and get them involved is going to be a big part of making and maintaining our country's progressive future.

Take a quick look at, for example, Healthcare for America Now's website. They're on Facebook, MySpace, YouTube, delicious, flicker, BlackPlanet, and MiGente.

A mere 14 years ago, how many people understood that email could be a part of political movement and action?  Or that cell phones would be used to phonebank or announce VP picks?  

 

 

 



John McCain thinks we haven't spent enough time in Iraq

[ Parent ]
So lame to Google before you criticize. (4.00 / 3)

Google "facebook bayh" and see the news results.  Washington Post, New York Times, LA Times - and those are just the top.  Cost of that media coverage -- absolutely nothing.  



John McCain thinks we haven't spent enough time in Iraq

Facebook is lame...full stop (4.00 / 2)
Facebook has privacy and security problems that the Facebook owners don't give a crap about. You can't credibly speak about privacy issues and then reach for Facebook as your organizing tool of choice because it's convenient. It's not like Facebook has anything close to the monopoly that would restrict your ability to organize using a different platform. Use my.barackobama, set up a quickie website, or start an online petition.

It's great that you are organizing and making individual voices into a chorus of opposition but that doesn't change the fact that Facebook sucks.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...

http://articles.latimes.com/20...

John McCain


Newsflash: The World Is Imperfect! The Mothership Will Be Back In 10,000 Years To Save You! (0.00 / 0)
Have some popcorn while you wait.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
Orville Rosenberg? Paul Redenbacher? (4.00 / 1)
So it's OK to write a hundred posts bemoaning the loss of privacy from the FISA bill and then invite your readers to join Facebook to oppose Evan Bayh for VP? Nice logic. How about walking the walk a little bit instead of taking up pitchforks and torches made by the opposition?

San Francisco Chronicle: "Facebook, the world's largest social networking site, is facing a class action lawsuit charging that its controversial advertising program violated online privacy and computer fraud laws."

The debate over retroactive immunity in the FISA bill involved allowing a class-action privacy suit against the government to go forward yet when you want to use Facebook you just shrug off these concerns.

I didn't attack anybody for organizing the group against Bayh. I just said pick better tools. Still, you immediately respond to me with over-the-top snark dismissing me as a looney. I believe Matt Stoller has written about not using consultants who play both sides of the aisle or tech companies who provide tools to the GOP. How is this different? There's nothing smart about being lazy and inconsistent and that's what privacy advocates who embrace Facebook for political organizing are doing.

John McCain


[ Parent ]
FISA is a matter of the government using the telecoms to spy (4.00 / 2)
on us without reasonable cause, or warrants, then covering it up forever.

Do you have any evidence that facebook was part of this? Because this is the first I've heard of it.

From what I've seen, the suit against facebook is based on their practice of selling people's information to other companies which, at worst results in spam. Selling personal information to the government on the other hand, has potential outcomes much worse than spam.

What facebook has done is annoying, and they deserve to lose the suit, but it is nowhere near what happened with FISA.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
I'm not equating the abuses of Facebook and the goverment (4.00 / 1)
I'm saying that choosing a company that criminally violates your privacy for commercial purposes because it's convenient weakens your standing to argue that privacy is something of high value to be protected.

John McCain

[ Parent ]
No, it doesn't. (4.00 / 2)
FISA is about the Constitution, about limiting the power of government to intrude on the lives of citizens. Nowhere has facebook ever been accused of spying on us on behalf of the government, that I know of.

You're just trying to muddy the water, saying that apples are oranges and that what the "100,000 Against Bayh Group" did (using facebook as a medium) is as bad as what Obama did (sanctioning illegal spying by the government).

It doesn't wash.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
The Words "Purity Trolling" Come To Mind (0.00 / 0)
I don't know where they come from.

They come unbidden as the morning sun doth drop its rays upon the shimmering dew.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
I'm rubber, you are glue...and an insufferable jackass (0.00 / 0)
You find the pragmatic value of using Facebook outweighs any problems with Facebook's behavior. Fine. When I note there are other apps that accomplish the same thing without the privacy compromises you resort to name-calling. I called your organizing against Bayh "great" and you still throw a tantrum because you got one word of criticism on your technology choice. People are going to transfer the trust that OpenLeft has earned to the tools you choose. If you feel that Facebook merits that trust, go ahead and keep on keepin' on. I really don't give a shit anymore. I'm done with your diva act.

For people with an interest beyond name calling and snark here's a decent paper on the topic, 'Trust and privacy concern within social networking sites: A comparison of Facebook and MySpace'.

http://csis.pace.edu/~dwyer/re...

John McCain


[ Parent ]
What's Missing Is The User Base (4.00 / 1)
You find the pragmatic value of using Facebook outweighs any problems with Facebook's behavior. Fine. When I note there are other apps that accomplish the same thing without the privacy compromises you resort to name-calling.

I appreciate you pointing out the problems involved. But other applications don't have the existing user base that Facebook has, which is what makes it so effective to use for rapid organizing.  I never said there was no value in what you're bringing up, it's simply a matter of pragmatic value, like you said.

And since using another app would effectively cripple rapid organizing, what you're insisting on is purity trolling.  It's "true-naming", not "name-calling" if you actually do it, which you have been to this point.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
A very myopic view (0.00 / 0)
Do you also avoid using Google, Microsoft, and the mainstream media?

If so, more power to you -- although I think you'll find it hard to get your message out to the American public.

If not, why apply different standards to Facebook?


[ Parent ]
I try to have limits (0.00 / 0)
Google and Microsoft are ubiquitous in a way that Facebook is not. I signed up to Facebook about a year ago and then canceled my account (which wasn't easy) when I learned about their practices. I've always had a Windows computer (I find Microsoft and Apple to be equivalent corporate actors) but I'm in the market for a new computer and my budget and technical ability should allow me to get a new Linux machine for the first time. I've used Mozilla email and browser products for as long as I've been aware of them. I'd say Google is on balance at least morally neutral in their behavior which is more than I can say for Facebook.

I'm not some kind of goo-goo reformer but privacy isn't an issue like global warming where you can buy 'privacy offsets' to make up for empowering privacy abusing entities. You have to think about things a bit more in advance. Facebook doesn't have a good reputation for privacy and security. That's all I wanted to point out. If the convenience of Facebook overrides those concerns for political organizers, so be it. I simply wanted to point out I think it's a unnecessary compromise.

John McCain


[ Parent ]
I will keep an eye out (4.00 / 1)
for your "100,000 Against Evan Bayh for VP" group when it comes out on smoke signals, or passenger pigeons, or however it is you think you are going to mobilize 3,000 people in two days.

I'll be the first to sign up.

Montani semper liberi


[ Parent ]
Re: I try to have limits (4.00 / 2)
Google and Microsoft are ubiquitous in a way that Facebook is not.

Most privacy advocates I know are at least as concerned about Google as Facebook -- the ubiquity you cite as justification for using Google's makes them more of a threat, as is the sheer amount of the data they store.  All of these companies are "morally neutral" in the sense that their primary value is to their shareholders; Facebook has been able to skate a little more thus far because they're not yet a public company, but class action suits and congressional letters of inquiry have a way of focusing attention.

You have to think about things a bit more in advance.

Why do you leap to the assumption that people haven't?  Check out the session on Designing social networking tools for activism and the other materials from this year's Computers, Freedom, and Privacy Workshop on Activism and Education on Social Networks, Clay Shirky's closing keynote at CFP.

I simply wanted to point out I think it's a unnecessary compromise.

None of the alternatives you listed would have worked here.  my.barackobama.com limits the audience to people who support Obama enough that they want to sign up and give information to his campaign web site, and rules out non-citizens and high-schoolers.  Online petitions and individual web sites are harder for people to sign up for (it's just one click to join a Facebook group), and furthermore numbers get discounted (a couple of recent 30,000+-signature threads have had no visible effect) and they don't tend to get the media attention.  Obviously all of these have their roles -- Get FISA Right's an example of what can be done on my.barackobama.com, and after setting up a Facebook group we then set up our own site -- and in a perfect world it would be easy for any activism campaign would use all of them.  

For the task at hand with Evan Bayh, Facebook and MySpace were the best options: that's where the people are.  



[ Parent ]
Game Not Lame (4.00 / 4)
First: Well said, Paul.

Second: A small note about Facebook. I only recently joined the site, having resisted it for so long because I had some weird sort of Luddite-hold-out reservations against it until a couple of weeks ago. I think I was a bit overwhelmed by technology there for a period. I even eschewed my iPod, gasp. And I think some part of me took pride in thinking that I didn't need some web site to help me connect with people. But, while I don't expect that a web site can or should replace my real-world connections, activities and communications, I am utterly amazed at what the site offers, in terms of time-saving ways to monitor and support friends' personal and professional endeavors. The speed with which I can communicate, share ideas and propose actions in an unobtrusive way, and quickly lend my support to others' ideas and actions that I find worthy, is nothing short of technological miracle. And Facebook is now a welcome tool in my activist box. I do, however, hope that I can get myself down to two check-ins a day. ;-)

Finally, on this Obama/authoritarian followers matter: I've been one of Obama's strongest supporters--even starting the Superdelegate Transparency Project (with Bowers, et. al.) to  shed light into the murky corners of that system and to prevent the establishment from rail-roading democracy. I don't agree with Obama on every last point, but I don't expect to. A friend once said to me, "I'll never have a 100% scorecard with these folks, but I'll work with them where I can." That's my adopted philosophy since getting into this activist game. And it is a game. A very serious game, with very serious consequences. But it's a game that those of us seeking a kind of political utopia sometimes win, and sometimes lose. We make choices every day about how to spend our time and what capital and energy we'll expend to get us closer to the ideals. I will do just about anything these days to defend and promote Obama. But, I also feel compelled to make my voice heard about where he takes his presidency and this nation (whether he listens and agrees, or not).

I am against Bayh because I think he undermines Obama's principled stand against the Iraq War. I think there are far better choices (ahem, Jim Webb, Wes Clark. Hell, even Hagel... there, I said it out loud). Because this war remains the most important issue for me in this election, despite how unfashionable that view may be at the moment). Obama can pay attention, or ignore what I have to say. But it is my right and duty to offer my views, and to put them forth publicly and privately as I see fit.

As for how I chose to make this particular view known, I think one can hardly be serious in thinking that Facebook is not a reasonable way of getting the Obama Campaign's attention. My friend, Scott Goodstein, and others working so hard and fabulously for the campaign, have shown how important these social networking sites--and Facebook in particular--have been in organizing on behalf of the campaign. It only makes sense that, as activists and citizens, we should use this tool to communicate with the campaign, to let them know what their constituents--not just the pundits and DC cocktail set--are thinking about his VP choices. Facebook, for this effort, is very effective. There's just no viable argument against this statement.

On the larger question, I feel that in telling Obama what I think about Bayh, I am performing a civic duty. I don't believe he's the kind of leader who wants to surround himself with Yes Men and Women. I believe he has the capacity to to hear from all of us, to make informed decisions. I believe he has plenty of advisors steering him to the center and establishment choices these days, and I allow that he's smart enough to do what it will take to get elected. But, on his way to being elected, and once he's in offce (should we all be so lucky), he should expect to hear from ALL OF US--using any traditional and progressive means necessary. I'll make cave drawings, paint graffitti, blog, publish books, scream from rooftops--and, yes, join a Facebook group--in order to make my views known.

Obama should expect nothing less of me. And we should all expect nothing less of ourselves. Are you game?


We're So Lame | 76 comments
Donate to Open Left








Friends of the Earth thanks the OpenLeft community for the ideas you generate and your contributions to the progressive movement.

As an anti-spam measure, there is a 24-hour waiting period after registering before new users can comment.
blog advertising is good for you
blog advertising is good for you
SEARCH

   

Advanced Search