I'd love for Warren to explain this more fully .. (0.00 / 0)

That's why whether or not they found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq is beside the point. Saddam and his sons were raping the country, literally.

Because one could say that is what Bush and his cronies are doing.

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by: Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle @ Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 12:20:32 PM CDT

Yeah, What's The Matter With Warren? (0.00 / 0)

Doesn't he watch Eli Stone?

Good Lord, the level of ignorance!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 12:37:50 PM CDT

Eli Stone! (0.00 / 0)

We have more in common than I'd ever guessed, Paul.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

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by: Mimikatz @ Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 13:55:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well (0.00 / 0)

I usually try to give any sort of speculative fiction a look-see when it first pops up.

Wonderfalls was a great case in point.  What a loss!

In this case, I was very pleasantly surprised when I discovered where it was headed.  Next season looks very promising.

Live Brave!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

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by: Paul Rosenberg @ Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 13:59:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Andrew Sullivan's response (0.00 / 0)

Is here.

Warren is better than the general run of evangelical preachers.  He thinks it is a mistake for a church to become allied with one political party.  He at least seems to understand that the corruption goes both ways, and the Founders wanted as much to protect religion from politics as the reverse.  He also wants to direct his flock to become less self-centered and do something about poverty, illiteracy and AIDS, rather than be hung up on the divisive issues of abortion and gay rights.  But he thinks abortion is a sin and that marriage is between a man and a woman, areas where Obama may disagree at least about imposing choices on others.  OTOH he doesn't like adultery either, and that skewers McCain.  And what about unnecessary wars?  And lying, as McCain is so wont to do these days?

McCain really isn't a believing Christian from what I have gathered, nor does he know much about Christianity; he goes to church for show, to check off a box.   Obama can talk about his journey of faith and presumably mke the point that if you accept Jesus and accept God's grace, it doesn't matter if you once went to mosque with your stepfather (even if you can't really remember it), that who you are now is what counts, in a language these folks may understand.

Of course plenty of other people will be very uncomfortable with this talk about accepting Jesus as your personal savior.  Stephen Carter (Yale Law professor) wrote a very good book called "The Culture of Disbelief" in the early 1990s about the difficulties of being a believer (of any religion) in this society.  He comes out the black church background, absolutely key to the civil rights movement, and he has a different perspective from most liberals.  Apart from evangelical political leaders and a few politicians, most opinion makers in the society are not religious, even find serious adherance to a religion strange and/or delusional.  People of faith are basically told in this society not to take their religion too seriously, but if you really believe, then you are morally obliged to try to live your faith, i.e., take it seriously enough to let it change your life.  

For me the difference is whether you simply try to live your faith or whether you are always trying to proselytize others (the definition of an evangelical).  I found serious religious practice (Buddhism) very difficult.  Eventually (2004) political activism gained the upper hand and I became submerged in the things of this world, but I try to retain the perspective and balance I once had from serious practice.  I have great respect for people who take their philosophy or religion seriously and really try to practice what they preach.  And very little for those who don't.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

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by: Mimikatz @ Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 12:57:35 PM CDT

And I should have added (4.00 / 1)

More respect for those who are agnostic (admit they don't know) and try to be ethical than those who think they know but don't practice what they preach.  How do I define ethical?  Recognizing the common humanity in everyone but respecting individual differences; not doing to others what you do not want done to you; do no less than your duty, take no more than your share; tell no lies, claim no easy victories; try to understand the true way of the universe and put yourself in harmony with it. I look at the results that practicing the philosophy would produce, and whether they are compatible with this view.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

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by: Mimikatz @ Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 13:03:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Exceptions to the Golden Rule (4.00 / 2)

If you have a Judeo-Christian heritage, you have to believe it when God says that evil cannot be compromised with.

Unless of course, you a.) are friendly with the U.S. government, b.) have lots of oil, or c.) are happy to provide basing privileges to the Pentagon in close proximity to b.)

Then you can boil your political opponents alive for all we care.

Now THAT's some Judeo-Christian morality for ya.

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by: Peter Principle @ Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 13:38:03 PM CDT

Well, really... (0.00 / 0)

I mean, you're right of course. And Warren's wrong - the US does many bad things. But I don't think the views he expresses here are anything you couldn't imagine coming from the lips of Brian Williams or Charles Gibson or any other mational media figure. So I'm not inclined to heap special scorn on the man.

That's not to excuse him, or any of those others, for that matter, for their stubborn insistence on American moral exceptionalism. And to prove that a more reasonable assessment of the US in the world is possible, here's  a Christian pastor who makes some sense:

In his six sermons, Mr. Boyd laid out a broad argument that the role of Christians was not to seek "power over" others - by controlling governments, passing legislation or fighting wars. Christians should instead seek to have "power under" others - "winning people's hearts" by sacrificing for those in need, as Jesus did, Mr. Boyd said.

"America wasn't founded as a theocracy," he said. "America was founded by people trying to escape theocracies. Never in history have we had a Christian theocracy where it wasn't bloody and barbaric. That's why our Constitution wisely put in a separation of church and state.

"I am sorry to tell you," he continued, "that America is not the light of the world and the hope of the world. The light of the world and the hope of the world is Jesus Christ."

Couldn't agree more! (Except about that Jesus stuff.)

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by: Chachy @ Sat Aug 16, 2008 at 16:47:22 PM CDT