A few questions about polling the Obama-McCain race

by: desmoinesdem

Mon Aug 25, 2008 at 16:00


I am not a pollster or a statistician, but I have been thinking about some factors that may cause problems with the polling of this year's presidential election.

My questions are after the jump. I welcome input from anyone with expertise in this area.

desmoinesdem :: A few questions about polling the Obama-McCain race
1. Cell-phone only voters.

I gather from this piece in the New York Times caucus blog that several prominent pollsters now routinely include cellphone samples in their surveys in light of the growing number of Americans who use only or mostly cell-phones.

I also know that a Pew Research Center survey taken in July suggested that Americans who use cell-phones are not that different politically from the population at large. To be more precise, people who use cell-phones most of the time are very much like the electorate at large, while people who exclusively use cell-phones are a bit different, but also less likely to vote:

The cell-only and cell-mostly respondents in the Pew poll are different demographically from others. Compared with all respondents reached on a landline, both groups are significantly younger, more likely to be male, and less likely to be white. But the cell-only and cell-mostly also are different from one another on many characteristics. Compared with the cell-only, the cell-mostly group is more affluent, better educated, and more likely to be married, to have children, and to own a home.

We know from many years of polling that married people, people with children and home-owners are all groups more likely to vote Republican than the population at large. The Pew study also found that

In the current poll, cell-only respondents are significantly more likely than either the landline respondents or the cell-mostly respondents to support Barack Obama and Democratic candidates for Congress this fall. They also are substantially less likely to be registered to vote and - among registered voters - somewhat less likely to say they are absolutely certain they will vote. Despite their demographic differences with the landline respondents, the cell-mostly group is not significantly different from the landline respondents politically.

Yet as Pew has found in the past, when data from landline and cell phone samples are combined and weighted to match the U.S. population on key demographic measures, the results are similar to those from the landline survey alone.

I get that the phenomenon of cell-phone-only users is probably not introducing large errors in poll findings.

My question is, does the proportion of cell-phone only Americans differ substantially from state to state, or is it a fairly uniform phenomenon across the country? To put it another way, are certain regions of the country, or states with a higher percentage of urban residents, more likely to have larger than average numbers of people who use cell-phones exclusively?

If any swing states have a particularly large number of cell-phone only residents, that would be interesting to know. It could affect the accuracy of polling in that state (depending on the methodology of the polling firm and whether it includes cell-phone samples).

2. Weekend samples for tracking polls.

I was unable to find the archive of Rasmussen's 2004 presidential tracking poll results, but my memory is that there was a clear pattern whereby Kerry did a little better in the samples taken on weekdays, and Bush gained ground in the samples taken on weekends.

That created the appearance of small movement toward and away from each candidate, with the pattern repeating almost every week in the late summer and fall. I remember reading some speculation that Bush was consistently doing better on the weekends because Democratic-leaning demographic groups are more likely not to be at home on Fridays and Saturdays.

I would like to know whether that is true, and if so whether the major tracking polls (Gallup and Rasmussen) are doing anything to account for this problem.

When we see shifts in tracking polls, we assume voters are reacting to the news of the last few days, but perhaps this is just an illusion created by changes in the pool of people who answer the phone on certain days of the week.

3. Weighting for party ID, race or other factors.

What is considered the best practice in terms of weighting poll results if the sample differs from the demographics of those who voted in the 2004 presidential election?

A Survey USA Virginia poll recently found McCain leading Obama by 48 percent to 47 percent. Commenting on the finding, fladem pointed out that the poll

had 19% of the electorate made up of African Americans.  In 2004 it was 21%.  I have got to believe that African American participation will be higher than 2004.  

I share fladem's belief, not only because Obama is black, but also because Obama has at least 35 field offices in Virginia, a state Kerry wrote off.

UPDATE: In the comments, fladem says the 2004 exit poll may have overstated the proportion of African-American voters in Virginia.

We know that registering new voters in groups likely to favor Obama is a crucial part of his campaign strategy. Speaking to David Broder, campaign manager David Plouffe

said that "turnout is the big variable," and the campaign is devoting an unusually large budget to register scads of new voters and bring them to the polls. "That's how we win the Floridas and Ohios," he said, mentioning two states that went narrowly for George W. Bush. "And that's how we get competitive in the Indianas and Virginias," two of six or seven states that long have been Republican -- but are targets this year.

"That's why I pay more attention to the registration figures than to the polls I see at this time of year," Plouffe said. "The polls will change, but we know we need 200,000 new voters to be competitive in Georgia, and now is when we have to get them."

Should pollsters adjust state poll findings to reflect the Obama campaign's massive ground game and voter registration drives? How would they do that?

If a polling firm routinely weights for race, should the pollsters assume that the racial breakdown of the electorate will be roughly the same in a given state as it was in 2004? If not, what should they assume?

I have a similar question with respect to party ID. We've seen in state after state that the Democratic Party has gained significant ground on the Republican Party in terms of voter registration. In Iowa, there were about 8,000 more Republicans than Democrats in the summer of 2004, but as of June 2008, there were more than 90,000 more Democrats than Republicans. That's a huge shift in a state where about 1.5 people voted in November 2004.

Are pollsters weighting for party ID, and if so, are they accounting for the big gains in Democratic voter registration since the 2004 or 2006 elections?

4. The disparity in the two campaigns' ground games.

I know that different pollsters use different screens to separate likely voters from the rest of the sample. One indicator sometimes used is whether the respondent voted in the last presidential election.

But the Obama campaign turned out incredible numbers of first-time voters during the Democratic caucuses and primaries. I laughed at the Des Moines Register's final pre-caucus poll projecting that 60 percent of caucus-goers would be first-timers, but that turned out to be almost exactly right.

For the general election, the Obama camapign is building a field operation on a scale never seen before.

To further complicate matters, the Obama field operation is enormous in many states where Democrats have not competed in recent presidential races. I mentioned the 35 field offices in Virginia already. Soon there will be 22 field offices open in North Carolina. There are at least 26 Obama offices up and running in Indiana. Even North Dakota has four Obama field offices. Al Gore and John Kerry bypassed all of those states.

Obama's ground game is going to be much bigger than Kerry's ground game was even in the swing states Kerry targeted. Nevertheless, it seems reasonable to assume that the increased turnout of groups that skew toward Obama (e.g. blacks, voters under 30) will affect the demographic composition of the electorate more in states where Democrats had nothing going in 2004.

Should pollsters do anything to account for this factor? Could they take this into account even if they wanted to?

I know that some of my questions are unanswerable, but I appreciate any insight readers can provide. The more I think about polling, the more I realize how many ways a sample can be skewed and how hard it is to figure out what a random sample should look like.

UPDATE: Thanks to the reader who wrote me to say that the factors I mention, while not necessarily reflected in polling, may be reflected in online prediction markets that currently show Obama with a 20 percent greater chance of winning the election than McCain.


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Seeing the polls (0.00 / 0)
I think the party unity problem is real, but not the way it's been presented.

The problem the MSM says is women are holding out because they're upset at Obama's nomination and his "snubbing" of Hillary Clinton.

But Obama is doing very well with women, and not with men, so it seems to be the problem Obama has is white working class Democratic men. I hardly think they're upset about perceived sexism.

If the problem is white working class Democratic men, then there's another problem. One I can't quite point out.  


I think the main problem is with older voters (0.00 / 0)
both men and women. I am hoping Biden will help a bit on that front.

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[ Parent ]
That's not surprising (0.00 / 0)
Obama has been pretty much labeled the "youth" candidate and you'll find many older voters are distrustful and don't much like the youth in this country right now.

Case in point, take a look at my diary on what my brother experienced canvassing for Obama among older voters in Virginia.

Luckilly, they're not all like that. Today I saw the Obama town hall in Iowa on CNN International (you'd be amazed how big of a story this election is over here) and there, front and center, was a sweet older lady telling Obama she will be our next President.

I wish she was my grandma.  


[ Parent ]
not only that (0.00 / 0)
I think people who have worked in a field for 30 or 40 years are more likely to think Obama lacks the experience needed to do this job. That is why I hope having Biden at his side will help. I see the logic of running mates that reinforce a message, but some gaps really do need to be filled.

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[ Parent ]
Yes that's true (0.00 / 0)
I think sometimes some people are so good they preempt the need for experience and that's Obama. Similarly Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt had similar positions; lack of experience but the ability to lead without it. I think that that's a difference from the older crowd as many of them think you need to have a full loaded resume, even if you're not the best person for the job.

I'm just shocked that so many people who complain about our politicians have been in Washington for too many years has rejected a politician that hasn't been in favor of one who has.


[ Parent ]
Breaking the "experienced" meme (4.00 / 1)
Need to break the "McCain is more experienced" by questioning how he has learned and matured as a person and leader based on his experience.  Draw a strong contrast and with Obama's reputation as having learned a lot during his 16 years in public policy-making positions.

[ Parent ]
It's tough (4.00 / 1)
 I don't know how they would weight demographics to predict surges in AA or youth votes. Because we really just don't know. So the safest thing is to go with what happened last time out. I suppose you could weight it according to the difference between the AA % of the electorate in 2004 and 2008. That would pick up disproportionate spikes in AA registration. But we're still talking about the margins really, maybe a point or two in the demographics. Which can make a difference sometimes between a poll showing a 1 point lead or being behind by 1 point. That's why it's so important to look at multiple polls. I also don't know if the pollster are systematically underestimating these groups or if it's random (some are under-sampling, some over, some have it right). In NC for instance, AAs made up 18.6% of the electorate in 2004 but they were 20% of the registered voters. So if some pollsters are using 19% for AA votes, some 20% and some 21% I think they'll probably hit the right amount somewhere in there.  

My take (4.00 / 2)
1. I think the cell-phone claim is overblown. People were saying the same thing in '04 and the polls were pretty much spot on.

2. I'd like to see a real study of it because what I've seen so far is quite minor though I would tend to lean slightly towards the idea that there is a slight bias.

3. I think many of these polls are undersampling both turnout and share of AA voters. I also think people are reading too much into sub-sections of poll crosstabs which have huge margins of error.

4. The polls are probably right not to take a perceived invisible Obama advantage into account. Mainly because we are talking about young voters who historically don't turnout in great numbers. It is one of the reasons I don't like likely voter models because they are a total shot in the dark. At least with registered voters we can extrapolate ourselves what we believe is most likely to happen - I wouldn't be surprised if this year if the usual pattern of the Dem underperforming his RV polling in actual votes is flipped since I think young voters and African Americans will turnout in record numbers.


if memory serves (0.00 / 0)
the main reason Zogby was so off on the California primary was that he projected higher AA turnout than what happened and lower Latino turnout than what happened. Where he got the numbers he used for his projections, I have no idea. Probably was just a shot in the dark, like you say.

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[ Parent ]
The A-A Electorate Numbers (4.00 / 1)
I'd be very skeptical of using the exit polling numbers for black turnout.  Here is black population by state in 2000

http://www.ipoaa.com/us_black_...

Virginia was 19%  I doubt it was actually 21% of Virginia voters.  We all know they were relatively flawed.

However, the real thing that has made me hopeful was that Ann Selzer had Obama up 7 in Michigan unlike many other pollsters.  Selzer remember nailed Iowa, thinking that Obama would actually get his young voters to turn out.  She was out on a limb, but really nailed it.  So, if she is measuring likely voters differently--and possibly correctly--it could be that Obama's turnout operation really will matter.


Obama's turnout operation will matter (0.00 / 0)
If it is successful.

This is the problem for pollsters.  The Gallups and Rasmussens and SUSAs have to be more in line with last time, at least until very much closer to the election.  At this point "likely voters" are almost a chimera.

The registration figures in many states with party id are up for Dems.  Party id is up for Dems. People were registered and voting in large numbers in the primary.  Young people were enthusiastic.  Will these still be true in November?  No one knows.  If they do go to the polls in record numbers, Obama will win, and it will affect polling next time around.  Those who most closely guess what these parts of the electorate actually will do will have the best record.  That's all you can say at this point.  That, and that I'd rather be in Obama's position than McCain's.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.


[ Parent ]
A-A percentage of voters exceeding A-A population percentage (4.00 / 1)
This has frequently been the case in state and local elections in California. I've noted it more than once and come up with some thoughts.

1) Older African Americans have been registered and registered and registered over the years. That doesn't ensure turnout, but it helps.

2) Also, for some older A-A voters, voting is associated with basic freedom and dignity in a way that it is not for most of us, though maybe it historically was for our forebears.

3) But mostly, it means there are other population groups who are not voting in percentages equal to their presence in the VAP, voting age population. That's historically been true for both Latinos and Asian-origin folks in CA.

Can it happen here?


[ Parent ]
The hardest (4.00 / 4)
thing to get right I think will be African American turnout.  I don't think white progressives get what an enourmous event this in the African American community and it is probably impossible to guess what the actual African American turnout will be. In the past heavy African American turnout has usually led whites to come out in bigger numbers.  This was the case when Wilder ran in Virginia (I was living in Alexandria at the time) but may not be the case this time.

I will say this: I was one of the people who thought the Obama people were insane to think turnout in Iowa would exceed 180K.  I will never forget the reaction to the DMR poll that came out before Iowa from some senior Edwards people: they thought the poll was rigged.  Of course DMR was proven right and turnout went well over 220K - something which no one else saw coming.  The Obama changed the rules of the Iowa Caucus - the single most amazing example of understanding the electorate I have ever seen in politics.

This is turn raises the question about the ground game and whether it will have an impact.  One of the surprises in 2004 was how much better the GOP ground game was in Florida than the Democratic ground game.  In terms of visability (eg yard signs) the GOP really had their act together.  Interestingly, in my neighborhood in Tampa there are no McCain yard signs.  None. In 2004 every other house had a Bush sign.  This may be a sign that the intensity gap is real, and the opportunity for a signficant ground advantage may be the difference in some of the battleground states.  

By the way, since I wrote the comment about Virginia a couple of people have sent me e-mail suggesting the 2004 exit poll in both Virginia and North Carolina oversampled African Americans.  Their analysis is based on a precinct review of both states, and was pretty compelling.    

The weekend theory really dates back to 2000 when conservatives discounted some polling on the ground that weekends tended to oversample Democrats.  This didn't turn out to be the case in that election.  

My last point is my most serious:  the electorial analysis being peddled by virtually everyone is largely based on two pollsters: Rasmussen and Gallup.  Rasmussen accounts for HALF of all state polling.  Gallup's record is spotty: their tracking poll in 2000 was laughably bad.  Not as bad, of course, as Rasmussen's in 2000, though.  While Rasmussen was pretty good in 2004 and 2006, their record in the primaries was very ordinary.  

What this means to me is there is the opportunity for polling to be signficantly off in this election.  

 


I didn't think the poll was rigged (0.00 / 0)
I just thought Selzer was completely wrong. It seemed impossible to me that we'd have double the 2004 turnout level, especially since four campaigns worked Iowa precincts very hard in 2003 and 2004.

I also thought Obama's field plan would fail where Dean's had failed before. Conventional wisdom in Iowa is that you never want your caucus strategy to depend on getting people out who never went to a caucus before. But obviously that was the key for him. I think Obama finished second to Edwards among Iowans who had caucused before.

Join the Iowa progressive community at Bleeding Heartland.


[ Parent ]
The ground game (0.00 / 0)
is probably impossible to factor into polling, because merely having field offices open and registering voters doesn't translate into a quantifiable number of votes. Young people in particular have been notorious for not showing up at the voting booth after being touted in the media as "finally involved this cycle." So for a firm that tries to deal in facts and reality to enter into this soothsaying would be suicide.

The good news is that the ground game does favor the Democrats, and the fact that the polling doesn't reflect that also does us a favor. After months of McCain being behind and the press not wanting to kick around an underdog, the fact that the polls have finally pulled even and is a legitimate contender gave the media an reason to really punish McCain on the house gaffe. The more realistic McCain's shot looks in the polls, the better chance he's going to get scrutiny, and McCain is all image and no substance. That's going to hurt him and send his numbers down again. As long as the trendline keeps bouncing due to a cycle of false negative ads by McCain and increased media scrutiny, that's a good thing, because the ground game will put us over the top at the end.


but we had record turnout (0.00 / 0)
in so many state primaries this year, which would seem to indicate that large numbers of people are becoming engaged for the first time.

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[ Parent ]
"large numbers of people are becoming engaged for the first time." (0.00 / 0)
You are so right about that. Don't know if it will be enough, but it certainly will be significant.

[ Parent ]
Youth? (0.00 / 0)
Just curious given all the talk about the "youth" vote.  What age group do pollsters label as youth?  I remember seeing something about the youth turnout here in Iowa and I think they had the age range as 17-29.  Huh?  Lumping 29-year-olds into the "youth" group must skew the numbers somehow, right?  

No rhyme or reason to this comment, just curious...


I don't know if every pollster does this (0.00 / 0)
but voters from age 18-30 are often lumped in the same group.

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[ Parent ]
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