Manhunt, LGBT Politics, and John McCain

by: Adam Bink

Thu Aug 28, 2008 at 11:23


Last week there was a big uproar in the LGBT community over Manhunt co-founder Jonathan Crutchley's $2,300 donation to John McCain. For those who don't know, Manhunt is the biggest gay male cruising site, with over 1 million active members and close to 1.5 million worldwide. It's very popular in among gay males, and a huge moneymaker from all the browsing traffic.

Crutchley screwed up, because since his donation history was published by Andy Towle, Manhunt subscribers started canceling their memberships, his founding co-partner Larry Basile publicly trashed his decision, and Crutchley resigned from the board, wrote an apology letter to his employees, and donated the same amount to Obama. Seems like the right thing to do, both for his business, as well as for the community.

Except yesterday, James Kirchick, an assistant editor of the New Republic (big surprise there), wrote an LATimes editorial accusing the gay community of intolerance, comparing John McCain with "Massachusetts Republican" types, and scolding the gay community for not donating more to him. It really is a piece of work.

More on the flip.

Adam Bink :: Manhunt, LGBT Politics, and John McCain
In it, he wrote:

The hue and cry over Crutchley's politics is all too familiar. Why can't gay activists countenance the idea of a "Massachusetts Republican"? Liberal intolerance. In the minds of too many on the left, gay people (like women and ethnic minorities) have to be liberal and support Democratic candidates. To do otherwise -- that is, to have opinions on issues (even issues utterly unrelated to gay rights) that don't follow the left-wing line -- is to be a traitor to the gay "community."

For too long, many gay-rights activists have acted as if throwing temper tantrums will magically bring about their political agenda. But labeling everyone with whom they don't agree a "bigot" does not help the worthy cause of gay equality.

Okay, I don't get this at all. First, Kirchick tries to make it sound as if some NYTimes gay liberal mafia set took action, tsk-tsking over what Crutchley did, and that's what got Crutchley to change his mind. Actually, Manhunt users themselves help start this, and looking around at my friends who use Manhunt, a whole lot of them aren't into politics at all. This was the gay male community standing up and saying that John McCain, one of the most anti-LGBT candidates for President we've ever had, should not be supported by anyone who gives a crap about their equal rights.

Second, gay men can countenance Massachusetts Republicans. But there's a difference between Massachusetts Republican Jonathan Crutchleys, who is a self-described one, and John McCain Republicans. Kirchick is confusing the donor with the candidate. But while we're at it, Massachusetts Republican Jonathan Crutchleys still aren't all the best advocates for LGBT rights, considering his reasoning for donating to Obama, as paraphrased by his co-founder:

"He said, 'If John is too good for my money, I'll give it to (presumptive Democratic nominee) Barack (Obama),' " Basile said yesterday.

Yes, you've really learned your lesson. Or his reasoning for his initial support of McCain:

""I believe McCain will be a better commander-in-chief than Obama, who also opposes gay marriage," Crutchley wrote, defending himself in the Huffington Post. "If we have an experienced, seasoned person defending the country in this dangerous age, we will be able to argue about the gay agenda later."

Those Massachusetts Republicans sure are staunch advocates.

My favorite part from Kirchick, though, is this:

The truth of the matter is that civil rights for gays can't come about without the help of Republicans. And this means that gay people -- and straight supporters of gay equality -- need to stand with, not silence, people like Crutchley who are working to change the GOP from within.

Gays need only look to California, where a state Supreme Court loaded with Republican appointees legalized gay marriage and the Republican governor is one of the most powerful pro-gay publicly elected officials in the country, to understand the importance of making gay rights a bipartisan cause.

You can take two views on this: first, my view, which is that the LGBT community, for legislative reasons, needs to align with the Democratic Party to achieve our goals; or second, and definitely more appropriate here, that John McCain is a bigot. The latter is what caused this uproar. The first reason goes more to candidates for legislative office, which is another debate entirely. But we're talking about President. I can't see Kirchick wagging his finger at us if pro-choice advocates decided, say, Mike Huckabee wasn't exactly their cup of tea, so why exactly would electing John McCain, who is no Massachusetts Republican, advance the interests of the community? "Activists" aren't throwing temper tantrums here, they're actually being, you know, strategic. McCain will veto any kind of progressive LGBT legislation, and that's that.

And Kirchick actually believes electing John McCain will "change the GOP from within"? In which way, exactly? President McCain isn't going to the House GOP Caucus and talking to them about the need for ending Don't Ask Don't Tell. He's not publicly advocating ENDA, ending abstience until marriage policies, supporting hate crimes laws, marriage equality, or same-sex adoption (which is my favorite of his LGBT positions, for both policy and political pandering reasons). He's not using his influence as President to raise money for LGBT civil rights organizations. I'm not even holding my breath for any calls for tolerance in Minneapolis, the most basic thing he could do.

With respect to California, Arnold Schwarzenegger vetoed marriage equality twice, and has hedged on other issues. I wouldn't exactly call him a trailblazing pioneer for marriage equality. And his 2006 opponent, Phil Angelides, was far better on a full range of LGBT issues, in addition to coming out for marriage equality. And in terms of nominees, as Wayne Besen pointed out to me, McCain has already told us he would not have appointed Souter, Stevens, Ginsburg and Breyer, four of the justices who voted the right way in Lawrence v. Texas (the decision that overturned a law banning gay sexual relations).

It doesn't surprise me that Kirchick doesn't get interest group political strategy in general, and is following the usual New Republic wanker line about comity and bipartisanship to achieve anything substantive. But the LGBT community has no reason to believe McCain will move the ball forward in any substantive way whatsoever.


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Idiot (4.00 / 2)
I don't know this guy, but he is just as imprinted by the MsM as anyone.  If he thinks that Repubs will EVER do anything positive for the LGBT peeps, he needs a Brainhunt website too.

McCain a better CnC?  LOL!!!  This is a guy that before the Georgia "incursion" wanted to boot Russia out of the G8.

This is the "enemy" the Repubs need.  Now watch Dems start talking smack about Russia.  Just as Dems bought into and still support the Orwellian "War on Terror", they will buy into the "War on the Neo Czars."


I'm sure he doesn't believe that (4.00 / 2)
He's probably a lot more interested in the tax cuts than any foreign policy agendas.

[ Parent ]
wooptee (0.00 / 0)
What can a Government do 'positive' for a sexual orientation? Homosexuals and so forth would be better served by less state intervention into their lives, not more.

A state that helps an identifiable group logically possess data on that group, and that data can in the future be used against that very same grouping of people.

All that being said - it's really none of our business to whom this private individual supports and donates money to, he is not comitting a crime or violating any election codes.

 


[ Parent ]
Yeah, that's right (0.00 / 0)
gay people don't deserve to collect social security, or any of the other 1,054 rights and benefits that accompany marriage. Rights and benefits that all straight people already enjoy, even if they only marry for less than 24 hours like Republican Brittany Spears. Even if they are adulterers like John McCain.


Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
What you don't understand (0.00 / 0)
gay people don't deserve to collect social security, or any of the other 1,054 rights and benefits that accompany marriage

But those things are state interventions, so really, we're better off without them! The Republicans are doing the gays a favor. Heterosexuals meanwhile will have to labor under the oppression of receiving tax incentives to marry.


[ Parent ]
Sorry, my bad. (4.00 / 1)
Excuse me while I go legally adopt my three children, and pay a buttload of money for the privilege, just like my lesbian friends have to do. Sweet freedom!

Montani semper liberi

[ Parent ]
and it's really none of your business when his customers boycott him for the same (0.00 / 0)
the state always intervenes - the question is the extent and to what end.

[ Parent ]
i should add though (0.00 / 0)
that taking a stand that it should refrain from intervening in particular ways is important.  but that is a kind of state action (not doing something - like nonenforcement of marijuana laws, for example).

[ Parent ]
The Real Argument (4.00 / 3)
is that progressives should not organize effectively.  They are supposed to be objects of ridicule for their political ineptness, and TNR types get very angry when they are not.

Of course the arguments they make make no sense.  They are cut from the same cloth as their arguments for the Iraq War--'let's support Bush's actual Iraq War, because our imaginary Iraq War will give every Iraqi a pony'.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


some how I have the feeling (4.00 / 2)
the LGBT community will make the best decisions for themselves. they ain't exactly political hayseeds.

Michael Bloomberg, prince of corporate welfare

as a member of the lgbt community (0.00 / 0)
i wish i had as much faith as you.  we need to do a lot of work internally, like other disempowered groups whose leadership is very close or in the elite at this point.

[ Parent ]
On the othe hand (4.00 / 2)
McCain is against gay marriage in all its forms.  Clearly, gay marriage would be bad business for a cruising site like Manhunt.

Not at all (0.00 / 0)
The people using ManHunt are not likely the type to get married anyway, or even if they were, they likely wouldn't stop using the site afterward (threesome, anyone?).

[ Parent ]
no, gay marriage won't hurt cruising websites at all (4.00 / 3)
because there are plenty of us who a) don't want to get married and/or b) don't believe that marriage must also be monogamous. i have plenty of queer friends in deeply loving relationships who believe so, a majority, in fact. but perhaps that's just my set.

anyway, there are plenty of stupid, racist, fox-loving gays out there. why shouldn't there be? sexual orientation has nothing to do with political intelligence. so this idiot donating to mcshame is just one more fool who wants all the benefits of being on the inside of the republican franchise but also allowed to be his own, out self. kind of like "libertarian" republicans who want to smoke pot openly.

they're all fools. i ignore them. and don't invite them to my parties. ;-)


I know many such couples (4.00 / 1)
I do find myself wishing I had such a relationship on occasion, but I certainly recognize there are a lot of risks involved as well, both physically and emotionally.

BTW, even if I did, I'd never use a site like ManHunt to meet people.  It's just incredibly impersonal, and why pay for a site like that when I'm perfectly capable of meeting attractive and intelligent people on my own.


[ Parent ]
those on the right (0.00 / 0)
can use all the high sounding reasons (bible,religion,morals etc) they have for disliking different groups, but it all boils down to what those on the right have in common as to their attitude toward anyone who is different then their waspy view of america, bigotry, there are other labels but that explains it in a way even the hate mongering right can understand, maybe.  

The real reason gays vote Republican: (4.00 / 1)
They care more about enriching themselves than about enriching the nation, to the extent that they are even willing to give up their own rights in exchange for a tax cut.  IMHO, they're traitors to the community but especially to themselves.

It's strange (0.00 / 0)
that there is outrage because some guy who runs a raunchy sex site doesn't take the moral or political high road.  

[ Parent ]
what makes it raunchy? (0.00 / 0)
and who are you to define raunch in this context?

[ Parent ]
Kirchick is ... (4.00 / 3)
Marty Peretz's  .. well .. buddy .. I don't understand why anyone take him seriously ... Kirchick is a neo-con .. he's no better a writer than Doughbob Loadpants .. and should be treated as such

And what about California proposition 8? (0.00 / 0)
As the San Jose Mercury News says in an editorial:

John McCain's support for the initiative to ban gay marriage in California - Proposition 8 - was predictable, given his conservative base of support. But Barack Obama's opposition, announced this week, was not a given.

Heck, even Schwarzenegger opposes the proposition, so at least in California the good guys* are doing okay at getting Republicans on board with LGBT rights.  But then maybe this is too "nuanced" for Kirchick.

jon

* in the gender-neutral sense of the word, of course :-)


I Don't Get It (0.00 / 0)
We have to oppose Republican politicians, who do not support our cause, and instead support Democratic politicians, who do not support our cause.

How is it that Obama doesn't support our cause? (0.00 / 0)
Single-issue folks in terms of marriage equality are unstrategic here.

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[ Parent ]
How? (0.00 / 0)
How is Obama progressive on human rights for GLBT? If he is, I've sure missed it.

[ Parent ]
some possible examples: (0.00 / 0)
using the idea of "family" in how he presents himself and his family;
by not being as outspoken an advocate of lgbt rights including, but not limited to marriage as one would like;
by showing no indication that any of this will change;
by invoking faith frequently - though I think the way he does this is not nearly as bad as it could be;
by promoting militarism (without mentioning its accompanying culture of masculinism, the effects of war in creating domestic violence situations, etc.)

That said, I support him - and STRONGLY prefer him to McCain, despite that i vehemently oppose some things about Obama's presentation and what I might expect in terms of policies.  And I'm not under any illusions that he could really do much more on lgbt rights than he does given all else without compromising on something ELSE that i think  is important.   That's actually the point though - that I support him and the Democrats vs. the Republicans doesn't give me the illusion that a single-party electoral approach to movement building is much more useful than a single-issue (and frequently litigative) approach.  in fact, i think all progressives should be challenging the discourse in whatever ways they can - pushing things to the limit and being populists at the same time.

But not every lgbt person is me or with my set of roots and ideas.  In some ways, issues are things we choose,  but in other ways, issues are things that choose us, and I don't think it's fair to say that people who want to can't opt out of emotional allegiance to the two-party system and the level of conservatism that both major parties adhere to even if they have to deal with it as a political reality for now.  which we do.


[ Parent ]
McCain v. Obama (0.00 / 0)
1.  McCain isn't one of the most anti-gay candidates we have had - he is against a Constitutional Amendment banning gay marriage, for example.

2.  Whether McCain, personally, is a bigot is anybody's guess.  

3.  On the issue of gay marriage, there isn't much difference between McCain and Obama.  Both have stated they OPPOSE gay marriage.  McCain would leave the issue to the states, but supports DOMA.  Obama supports civil unions, not marriages, and opposes DOMA.  Repealing DOMA is probably a near-impossible task, although it may ultimately be struck down by some courts.  Even if DOMA is struck down, there are Constitutional Amendments in many states which are a question of state law.  If either of them get their way, the result is an inconsistent patchwork of laws, and we are probably stuck with DOMA, and/or a long state by state legal battle - a mess for the foreseeable future.

4.  On Federal anti-discrimination laws and "don't ask, don't tell" Obama is clearly the better candidate.  Anti-discrimination laws are on the books in about 20 states.  

The Democrats and Obama have done almost nothing to earn the gay vote, and probably will do nothing in the future.  Many Democratic politicians will sit on the sidelines while the states sort these questions out, believing the momentum will continue to favor gay rights, and then pass federal legislation only when the battle is effectively won.  There's little inclination for the Democrats to spend national political capital guaranting civil rights for gays.

It was a Democratic President, Bill Clinton, not the religiously obsessed Bush, who damaged the cause of gay rights by "don't ask don't tell" and DOMA.  Bush paid occasional lip service to "traditional marriage" but didn't spend any political capital on it either.  It is exceedingly unlikely that the religious right will push McCain further than Bush on this issue, particularly considering the legislature will likely remain in Democratic hands.

The only issue that Obama and the Democrats nationally are effectively better on is "don't ask, don't tell."  I don't see why any gay person should owe undying, passionate fealty to the Democrats for that one issue.  


This is bullsh*t! (4.00 / 1)
Point #3
"On the issue of gay marriage, there isn't much difference between McCain and Obama." This is laughable.

Obama supports civil unions. This is state-sponsored registration and recognition of same-sex relationships, treating them as equivalent to marriages in every way that they can by statute. This is a huge advance. Just ask people in California, Vermont, Washington, Oregon, New Jersey and Connecticut. McCain opposes civil unions.

Point #4 "The Democrats and Obama have done almost nothing to earn the gay vote, and probably will do nothing in the future."

Absolute bullsh*t! The Republicans oppose repeal of "don't ask, don't tell," oppose sexual orientation discrimination, oppose allowing gay people in binational relationships to sponsor a foreign partner, oppose fully funding the Ryan White CARE Act on AIDS and mostly oppose Employment Non-Discrimination Act while EVERY SINGLE MAJOR DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE SUPPORTED THESE POSITIONS in the primary.

In August 2007, almost every (Obama, Clinton, Edwards, Richardson, Kucinich, etc) attended an LGBT specific presidential candidate debate in Los Angeles which aired live on the gay cable channel LOGO; the Republicans didn't even RESPOND to the request.

There is simply no comparison between the Republican and Democratic parties when it comes to LGBT equality. So, please STFU.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Mad Professah Lectures


[ Parent ]
Well, point #4 is technically true. :-) (0.00 / 0)
However, doing nothing is so much better than the Republicans' plans for LGBT people that your rebuttal is right on point.

[ Parent ]
Point by point. (0.00 / 0)
You say:

Obama supports civil unions. This is state-sponsored registration and recognition of same-sex relationships, treating them as equivalent to marriages in every way that they can by statute. This is a huge advance. Just ask people in California, Vermont, Washington, Oregon, New Jersey and Connecticut.

To which I observe: state action is all very good.  However, that has absoltely nothing to do with the federal government.  McCain says these matters should be left to the states; so does Obama.  And neither of them are going to spend political capital on this.

You seem to have avoided, or misunderstood, the point here.

You say:  The Republicans oppose repeal of "don't ask, don't tell," oppose sexual orientation discrimination, oppose allowing gay people in binational relationships to sponsor a foreign partner, oppose fully funding the Ryan White CARE Act on AIDS and mostly oppose Employment Non-Discrimination Act while EVERY SINGLE MAJOR DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE SUPPORTED THESE POSITIONS in the primary.

To which I observe: As I mentioned, "don't ask, don't tell" could be remedied by Obama.  It's an important issue, but hardly strong gay rights advocacy.  

Bush signed the reauthorization of the Ryan White CARE Act.  If the President in the pocket of the fundies, signed it, are you really suggesting McCain won't?  

As to ENDA, that is an unknown.  It has been around over ten years, with control of the legislature variously in the hands of either party, and never made it to a President's desk.  I doubt that it will reach Obama's desk, unless the Democrats have a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate.  Based on past history - eg, DOMA, Obama's statement that he OPPOSES gay marriage - I would doubt the Democrats are going to make any progress on this issue at all.  

I think that the Democratic party needs to earn support. I'm sorry if that's offensive to you.


[ Parent ]
you don't know what you're talking about! (4.00 / 1)
A federal Gay rights bill was introduced over 30 years ago, not 10. Because the Republicans controlled both Federal houses from 1994-2006 the bill was reduced to just be the Employment Non-Discrimination Act. In that time, numerous states enacted comprehensive gay rights bills.

There is no question in my mind that the hate crimes bill, ENDA, same-sex binational couple immigration and gay and lesbian integration of the military will be enacted in Obama's first term.

It's a ridiculous statement to say that the Democrats need to earn the support pf LGBT people when the OTHER party is actively hostile to LGBT rights and when the Democratic party IS open to LGBT rights and has already tried to earn our support.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Mad Professah Lectures


[ Parent ]
Weird arguments (0.00 / 0)
You'll notice the difference between "the most" and "one of the most", and the term I used.

It's kind of silly to dismiss what a candidate supports as irrelevant. A whole lot of people think Al Gore's call for having our electricity come from completely renewable sources by 2020 as a pipe dream, but he deserves credit for advocating for it. Obama deserves the same.

MadProfessah makes good points in terms of issues. I would also add that I've heard Obama mention respect and equality for gays and lesbians in his stump speeches more than on one occasion. Even Michelle Obama showing up by surprise at the LGBT delegates' mtg here in Denver is a gesture.

Lastly, in terms of voting, it's a straw man argument to pivot to pointing at the Democratic Party as a whole and arguing that LGBT people shouldn't give Obama his vote because there are some conservative Democrats, or that anti-discrimination laws are on the books in less than half of all states. This post is about Obama and what remains to be done. He will sign hate crimes, ENDA, fight against abstinence until marriage funding, and push for some kind of partnership rights. That alone is a big difference, and a big step.

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[ Parent ]
Credit for meaningless support? (0.00 / 0)
Obama could say he wants to reduce the military budget by 50%.  I would think that is wonderful.  But because I realize it not going to happen, I wouldn't consider it much of a basis to make a decision.  

It isn't a strawman to look at reality.  The Democratic party has a long history of not spending political capital on gay rights.  It's been lip service, again and again.  Do you think our FISA-capitulating candidate will suddenly take up the mantle of civil liberties on behalf of gays?  

Now, putting myself in the position of a self-interested, self-employed owner of a profitable rauchy gay hook-up site, I'd ask myself where I'd put my support: (a) on the Democrat, on the off chance (probably at best 50%) that my buddies will have more job security and a few of them could be out in the military or (b) the Republican, who will let me keep my Bush-era tax breaks? His decision really isn't so shocking, and it's his to make.

I'm not arguing that McCain is better on gay rights.  I'm arguing that neither candidate or party really cares much, except at election time, when there's a flurry of useless activity and rhetoric on both sides.  Gays MAY may some moderately greater progress under an Obama Presidency, but the real action is going to be at the state level no matter who wins, and both parties like it that way.  Faced with that reality, a gay person can find other issues more important than the largely symbolic skirmishes over gay rights at the federal level.


[ Parent ]
You don't get to impose your reality (0.00 / 0)
Faced with that reality, a gay person can ...

You've made a bunch of arbitrary assumptions and selective prioritzations and those help create your reality, which seems very similar to Kirchick's.  Others -- gay, straight, bi, queer -- prefer to live in a reality where change is possible at multiple levels: local, state, national, and within the community.  

In one reality, the huge differences between the parties are meaningful, and self-interested self-employed businesspeople who make decisions like that have to deal with the consequences.  I think that reality's more likely to lead to meaningful change.  Why are you so against it?


[ Parent ]
Howso? (4.00 / 1)
I don't see my assumptions as arbitrary.  They may be correct or incorrect, and that's a point of debate.  Do you think, after all these years of EDNA kicking around going nowhere, the Democrats supporting DOMA, etc., and given Obama's repeated tacking to the right, that there's suddenly going to be a dramatic sea change and the Democrats are going to bring in a new era for gay rights?

I don't live a the reality I "prefer."  That isn't how reality works.  I see the absolute inaction of the Democrats on these issues, and I also see how the right has used them as wedge issues, and I understand that Democrats like Obama will not spend their political capital on them.  

My assumptions could be wrong, certainly.  But I, personally, would demand a much greater level of commitment from a political party before I put myself in a position in which I assumed my sexual identity would determine my political affiliation.


[ Parent ]
Where did recent gay rights advances come from? (0.00 / 0)
A simple question that might address the difference of opinion: there has been some significant progress in gay rights over the last 5 or so years. Where and how did that come about? It seems to me, and I could be wrong, it was changes at state level -- in particular liberal states. If true (i.e., kanzeon's reality is true), I don't think that gay hotshots should hedge their priorities. We still need to do what we believe is the better thing (or at least not do things that we know to be bad) from a principled viewpoint. Or am I unfashionably naive?


[ Parent ]
well if we extend this it's basically the question oItf movements vs. national presidential politics (0.00 / 0)
i always go with the movement, but the two are obviously intertwined (at minimum to keep someone worse out).  This either/or stuff is silly - I dont know how it started, but there's no reason why one can't prefer Obama to McCain as well as say that the Democrats on a national level are not doing nearly enough to support (and in some cases are helping push things backwards) lgbt rights.

The other point is - why are we talking about marriage?  There are divisions within the lgbt community on this point.  Marriage for lgbt people is a bit like assimilationism for immigrants, affirmative action for Black people and Latinos, economic mobility for the working class, etc.  It's not the sole issue, nor is it worthless - but it does reflect some of the power dynamics WITHIN the lgbt community - which is far more diverse than most people give it credit for being.


[ Parent ]
Advances (0.00 / 0)
On day one:

Obama will issue an executive order banning discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation in federal employment.

First two years:

ENDA hasn't been brought up for a vote yet in the Senate, but chances are it will reach 60 votes, and has already passed the House. That doesn't matter anyway- every single Democrat will is a sure-fire lock to be elected to the Senate this November, and most of those who are not, support the current version of ENDA, and Obama will sign it.

Hate crimes passed the House, and is less likely to pass this year, far more likely to pass next year. Udall 1, Udall 2, Warner, Sheehan will all vote for it. If Allen, Merkeley and Franken win, they will support it too. Obama will sign it.

Further, a lot of LGBT issues have been crowded off the table by votes on the war, votes on S-CHIP reauth, etc. It will be crowded by NCLB reauth next year, but that doesn't meant complete inaction.

Your assertions aren't grounded in paying close attention to the current vote totals, positions of candidates, and political dynamics.

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[ Parent ]
Maybe not. (0.00 / 0)
I think we're talking past one another:

1.  I'm not sure who's out of touch on executive orders:

"Executive Order 13087 was signed by U.S. President Bill Clinton on May 28, 1998, amending Executive Order 11478 to prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation in the competitive service of the federal civilian workforce."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E...

"Bush has made no attempt to rescind President Clinton's Executive Order 13087, banning discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation in federal employment."

http://civilliberty.about.com/...

What is it, exactly, that Obama will do with respect to the existing executive order?

2.  Color me a skeptic on ENDA.  It's been sitting around since 1996.  If you count 60 votes, great.  I've browsed the web, and can't get a head count.  Do you have one?

Now, I admit I'm more cynical than many here.  But, FFS, if a bill sits around 12 years, there's some reason to be jaded.   My guess, knowing how the Republicans use gay rights issues, is that a filibuster is more likely than not.  A filibuster proof majority is within the realm of possibility but far from a certainty.

3.  Hate crimes will probably pass.  The question we are discussing is whether the likely achievements of the Democrats justify the vitriol hurled at this gentleman who dared contribute to McCain.  I'm for hate crimes legislation - but I am extremely skeptical that enhancing sentencing in a few cases will do much to reduce bigotry.  In fact, I'm pretty sure it won't.

My assertion is that the Democratic party has given gay people no compelling reason to passionately defend it on the federal level.  Again, this is because the issue that dwarfs all others - gay marriage - will not be handled on the federal level.  Neither party has the stomach for that.  Hence, any progress on the federal level will be marginal.

This is a question of tolerance.  No one has a claim on this man because he was born gay.  It is entirely rational for a gay man to consider other issues - national defense, taxes, whatever - more important than ENDA or don't ask, don't tell.  And it is entirely possible, and in fact likely, that we will not even get those under Obama.


[ Parent ]
Seriously: (0.00 / 0)
What, exactly, are you advocating:

"Activists" aren't throwing temper tantrums here, they're actually being, you know, strategic."

What is actually happening is that some guys are choosing to use another internet cruising site because some private citizen has a controversial opinion.  The end result is that this one individual will be "punished" and those who are bigoted towards gays will have their perceptions that being gay is solely about casual sex reinforced.  This is about one guy, two grand, and a sex site.  How is that strategic?

In the infancy of the interent, back during the Clinton impeachment, I posted a bit on freerepublic.com.  I found the intolerance far more disagreeable than their policy opinions.  The actually believed that liberals, or even moderates, were deviant or untrustworthy because they had different opinions.

I thought that the liberal web would be different.  But, as the primaries wore on, there appeared to be less and less difference between the freepers and the netroots.  They had the same irrational hatred of the Clintons, and in the end, the same irrational and personal hatred of anyone who disagrees with them.  The notion that people are morally objectionable because they disagree, and the insistance that everyone toe the party line or be punished isn't strategic or progressive or smart - it's McCarthyite and backwards.  I thought, for a brief time, that progressives were better than that.  I was wrong.


[ Parent ]
What an astonishing post (0.00 / 0)
kanzeon, I find your argument that the LGBTQ community is better served by leaving DOMA in place ignorant at best.  Terence Heath's The DOMA difference goes into detail about the impact from section 2 of DOMA on citizens of states that do support marriage equality.  You're arguing in favor of having this impact on an increasing number of people.

The only issue that Obama and the Democrats nationally are effectively better on is "don't ask, don't tell."

The Democrats in general support ENDA; Republicans don't.  Obama voted for it; McCain against.  Obama goes further and supports a trans-inclusive ENDA.  Did you know this?  Or don't you see these differences as significant?  In any case you're once again arguing that the differences to rights of millions of people don't "effectively" matter.

And to discount Obama's and McCain's differences in position on California Proposition 8 because it's not a "national" issue strikes me as once again minimizing a huge impact on the rights of millions of people.  

Do you really see your positions and language as consistent with OpenLeft's inclusive mission -- or a successful progressive movement?

jon


[ Parent ]
Results matter, not rhetoric. (0.00 / 0)
Is DOMA going to be repealed during an Obama Presidency?  I'd place the odds at 90-1.

Is ENDA going to be passed during an Obama Presidency?  I'd place that at 50-50 at best.

Don't ask, don't tell quite possibly will be repealed, although, as Bill Clinton found out, it's a tough thing for a new President to do.  Clinton came on as an inexperienced commander-in-chief and trying to liberalize the policy put him immediately at odds with the military brass.  THAT'S WHY we have don't ask, don't tell, and that's why it would be very foolish for Obama to take on the issue early in his Presidency - it would be deferred, perhaps indefinitely.

I can say as a near certainty that the most important issue - gay marriage - will not advance significantly more quickly under Obama and the Democrats than under McCain.  Both are going to make it a state issue.  Neither is going to support full equality.

I fail to see anything about my position or language as "not inclusive."  I just don't think it's very surprising that there are lots of openly gay people who vote Republican.  The Democrats are not going to advance their most significant issues - they never have.  If the Democrats and Obama were seriously going to push for a strong gay rights agenda, so that the average gay person could really expect an improvement in their situation because of actions of the federal government, I would find gay Republicans surprising.

The whole flap is pretty absurd.  A bunch of horny guys are dropping their memberships to go cruise on the number 2 gay hookup site.  Maybe Manhunt will bite the dust.  Another great victory for internet activism.


[ Parent ]
this isn't the point (0.00 / 0)
as with so many other issues (immigration, foreign policy, etc.), Obama as a public personality / policymaker is far from progressive, let alone where I would like to see him.  The difference is that you can ARGUE with democrats to an extent - you can't do that with Republicans as long as a substantial part of their mobilizing is built on anti-gay, anti-women, anti-minority, anti-immigrant, anti-poor, anti-noncitizen sentiments.

But I feel no obligation to support a democrat - i just recognize the difference between long term attempts to push the country in a more lgbt-friendly direction while at the same time understanding there's a difference between the Democrats and Republicans.  So I'm voting for McKinney (or someone) in New York.  Makes sense to me.  And not that complicated.

If you don't feel any particular loyalty to the Democrats, then why be loyal to a 2 party system?  And if you are loyal to the two party system, there is one choice that's CLEARLY better than the other for LGBT people.


[ Parent ]
Launching a campaign to amend all federal and state constitutions... (0.00 / 0)
...to ban political donations by gay Republicans--now that would be "intolerant".

I'm actually a little surprised that this column made it past the Times' opinion editors, considering how ridiculously stupid the argument is.  And of course it pisses me off to see the "intolerant gays" slander in print--a variation on the "selfish gays" slander.

By the way, is there any evidence that John McCain is not a bigot?  Was there some high-minded maverick principle behind his opposition to the MLK holiday, for instance?


Can we wedge them now? (0.00 / 0)
Someone needs to be asking the fundagelicals, "have you seen this Manhunt website? What do you think of the fact that John McCain is taking money from the owner of this site?"

Montani semper liberi

that would make me really uncomfortable (0.00 / 0)
because it would entail using an implicit attack on things that i believe in to attack the other candidate.  it's a little bit like going after mccain for being pro-immigrant (as opposed to going after him for not supporting the mlk holiday) because he sponsored a horrendous immigration bill that people even more horrendous than him opposed for the wrong reasons.

maybe that's not what you meant though - not sure.


[ Parent ]
TNR: worth the thread? (4.00 / 1)
This post has generated more comments than the number of subscribers TNR will have in three years. Along with The Atlantic Monthly, TNR is a now irrelevant self-styled "liberal" outlet that believes that a scolding pose can pass of as intellectual weight. Read them purely for amusement, only, and that if you can get a free copy.


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