Saturday Election Round-up Thread

by: Chris Bowers

Sat Aug 18, 2007 at 15:00


Worthy items for the Saturday election junkie in all of us:
  1. Thompson Derided On First Iowa Visit
    With the Iowa caucuses now, quite possibly, only sixteen weeks away, Fred Thompson is already being derided for finally making his first visit to Iowa. For example, he was ripped by Fox News. Also, CQ politics:

    Too little and too late is what they're saying in Iowa about Fred Thompson's first trip there today as a possible presidential contender.(…)

    Already, his schedule for today in Des Moines is drawing criticism as off the mark. The Des Moines Register notes that Thompson most needs to begin a meaningful dialogue with voters. But after reviewing his planned emphasis on photo-ops and private meetings with GOP leaders, the state's largest newspaper concludes that "he will have hardly begun that task by the time he leaves Iowa this afternoon."

    It is starting to seem very unlikely that Fred Thomspon will be able to seriously compete in Iowa, which in turn makes it less likely that he can compete in New Hampshire, which in turn makes it less likely that he can compete in Michigan, which in turn makes it less likely that he can compete in South Carolina, which in turn make sit less likely that he can compete in Florida, etc.  At this point, he has the resources to make a stand in only one state.  Although for a while the question for Republicans was whether an alternative to "Rudy McRomney" would emerge in the primaries, now the Republican nomination might very well be Romney's to lose. Maybe Gingrich can still be the Republican nominee.

  2. Bloomberg Definitely Out?
    Dan Rather says that Michael Bloomberg told him on august 9th that he was not going to run for President in 2008 under any circumstances:

    Mr. Rather: Michael Bloomberg, mayor of New York, told me that he was not going to run for president. In a direct answer to a direct question, would he run under any circumstances, he danced around a bit and finally said 'No.' Furthermore, he said he wasn't open to even considering running as a vice presidential candidate with anybody, and he wouldn't take a place in anybody's cabinet."

    Darn. I kind of hope Rather is wrong here. A Bloomberg run would make an already favorable Democratic electoral scene in 2008 even more favorable, as every poll with Bloomberg in the race shows he draws more support from Republicans than Democrats. Further, it would have the advantage of potentially exposing the DLC as a third-party splinter group, since much of their leadership is behind a Bloomberg run. I also like the idea of seeing billionaire centrist heroes like Bloomberg get waxed in the general election, thus showing LieberDems they have no real national base.

  3. House Retirement Watch
    Swing State Project looks at this week's rash of Republican House retirements, and compares it to this point in the cycle in 2006.

    At this point in 2005, Republicans were dealing with nine open seats of an eventual total of twenty.  Interestingly, only two of these nine were straight-up retirements, whereas the bulk of these early announcements were made by House members seeking a promotion to a statewide office.  While the rumors and speculation are rampant, only five Republicans have announced retirements this year(…)

    However, of these five, four are "straight-up" retirements, while the fifth (Duncan Hunter) may as well be, too.  Additionally, retirements by Rick Renzi (AZ-01) and Ralph Regula (OH-16) seem all but official, and many are convinced that Dave Hobson (OH-07) will throw in the towel, as well.

    To put it one way, in 2006, House Democrats benefited from Republican electoral hubris. Back then, there were more open seats at this point on the Republican side, but that was because so many House Republicans declared for higher office, which they almost all ended up losing. At this point, there are more "straight-up" retirements, and this is a trend we could see continue as more Republicans decide that being in the minority in the House isn't very fun.

  4. We Don't Want Your Votes
    Paul Waldman discusses how Republican attacks on immigrants, currently fueled by Mitt Romney himself, is quickly moving the GOP to minority status over the long term:

    One of the early spats (and just you wait -- the GOP race hasn't even begun to get nasty, but it absolutely will) found Mitt Romney attacking Rudy Giuliani, saying that when he was mayor, "New York was the poster child for sanctuary cities." Though Romney was technically incorrect (New York never actually declared itself a sanctuary city, though it was, and is, one in all but name), the attack hit its mark.(…)

    [W]hen a party says again and again that you and people like you are the biggest problem facing the country, it's hard to muster up enthusiasm for its candidates. If the GOP keeps this up, Latino Republicans could become like gay Republicans, a tiny, beleaguered group waging a daily battle against cognitive dissonance, scapegoated by their own party and mocked by their friends for associating with people who despise them.

    And it is already happening. In 2004, John Kerry won the Latino vote by 58-40 percent, a healthy 18-point margin. Since he lost the overall popular vote by 3 points, this means that Kerry outperformed his national numbers among Latinos by 21 points. In 2006, however, Latinos voted for Democratic congressional candidates by an overwhelming 69-30 percent, or 39 points. With Democrats winning the overall House vote nationally by 52-46 percent, Democrats outperformed among Latinos by 33 points.

    It is not just Latinos and the LGBT community. Conservative attacks on numerous minorities are quickly making the Republican party a minority itself. For example, Arab-Americans were long a swing vote in the country, but in the wake of anti-Arab rhetoric and policies from conservatives after 9/11, they now favor Democrats by 30 points. Constantly scapegoating minorities might work for a while, but when the majority of the country becomes non-white and or non-Christian, it is electoral suicide. Check out the Open Left demographics archive for more on this.

This is an open thread on elections.

Chris Bowers :: Saturday Election Round-up Thread

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This for 'PigBoy' Rove and his... (0.00 / 0)
...1000 Year Right:

Bwaaaaaaaaaaahhhahhhhaaaaaaaaaahhhhaaaaa.

Doan let the door hit you in your big, fat posterior on the way out Karl.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


There is no LGBT community (0.00 / 0)
This is really minor, but it's a pet peeve of mine, and this seems as good a place as any to voice it.  Could we please stop talking (or writing) about the "LGBT community?"  What on earth do I have in common with a Log Cabin Republican other than the fact that we both are attracted to people of our own genders?  Are John Edwards and George Bush part of a (presumably) straight community?  No.  For the same reason that you didn't talk about a Latino community but Latinos (or, more accurately, Latino/as), there are LGBTs, and African-Americans, and LGBT Latino/as and African-Americans, etc.  The word "community" presumes a monolithicness of interests that I don't think exists among LGBTs (please note that that's different from saying that discrimination based upon sexual orientation doesn't exist).  I admit it's minor, but it's that presumed monolithicness that, for example, leads to stereotypes of all gay men as white and wealthy (I wish!).  It's why I won't call the Bush Dogs, a term I love, "Bush Dog Democrats"; I think there are key Democratic core values to which the Bush Dogs don't fully subscribe.  My point is that the language we use matters, and it's admittedly an old one, but since we're discussing election demographics and will be for quite some time, I thought I'd throw this out.

Except That The LGBT Community Uses "The LGBT Community" All The Time (0.00 / 0)
At least here in Southern California they do, and have done for eons now.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
yes, but... (0.00 / 0)
Oh, I know that a good number of people still use the term, and a good number of people no longer do, for the very reasons I abbreviatedly argued above.  I think the term "gay community," say, made lots of sense when it was used in the '70s, as the whole idea of some kind of unitary identity based upon sexual orientation, never mind a positive identity, was so contested at that time, even more so than today.  Then, of course, "gay community" became "lesbian/gay community," and then it fractured further around bisexual, queer, transgendered, etc.  Which I think is all for the good.  We still use the term "African American community" or "Hispanic community," for example, but less and less because people realize that while there are certain common bonds, there are so many different groups within that it makes more sense to talk about African Americans or Hispanics, just like it makes sense to talk about Jews or Christians or heterosexuals, etc.  I would venture that the majority of LGBTs who use the term "LGBT community" are urban, white, middle class, etc.  Take a survey of African-American LGBTs, for example, and I think you'll find that significantly fewer feel that they're part of an LGBT community even while identifying as LGBT.  To go back to my original point: How am I and a Log Cabin Republican part of the same community?  We share a similar sexual orientation, and therefore presumably have some similar experiences, but the word "community" means a whole lot more than that.

[ Parent ]
What's A Metaphor You? (0.00 / 0)
To begin with, being in the same community as a Log Cabin Republican is not conceptually difficult at all.  The actual physical community I live in contains all sorts of people whose politics differ radically from mine.

Rather, I think that the use of the term "community" in these sorts of contexts has always been fairly ambiguous, whether people realized it or not, and people tend to trip over things that they otherwise wouldn't even notice--and haven't even noticed when other matters were more pressing and important.

Here's a fairly straight-forward ambiguity:  On the one hand it's grounded in the reality of actually existing physical communities--which can be thought of in the aggregate as the African-American (or Latino, or GLBT) community. OTOH, it's also been metaphorical, because the very act of aggregation removes the phsicality--and even the existence--of some, if not all, referents. (Where's the community store in the African-American community?)

But this is only one aspect of the confusion.  You are speaking to another one--the dual meaning of actual community--which is often, if not always, a source of conflict as well as cohesion--and that of virtual community in the "community of interests" sense.

Addiitonally, when you're speaking about blacks and Latinos in the GLBT community, there's a further problem you glide right past:

I think you'll find that significantly fewer feel that they're part of an GLBT community even while identifying as GLBT.

But, of course, GLBT identity historically is a white identity.  Black and Latino cultures have different constructs, and the fact that blacks and Latinos don't identify with the GLBT community cannot be separated from the fact that many of them simply don't identify as GLBT.

In short, I think it's perfectly appropriate to keep talking in terms of a GLBT community, since communities are always already more ambiguous and conflicted than the Halmark Card says, and it's perfectly appropriate to keep talking about the contradictions themselves, and how problematic the term is.

Now the intelligence community, don't get me started on that one!  Every time I hear the term, I want to ask where the intelligence daycare center is.  Know what I mean?

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Well... (0.00 / 0)
To be honest, I'm not sure I'm fully understanding your point here, but if you're saying that there's a difference between a physical community and a nonphysical one (e.g., a virtual community), sure.  But if we're talking about national demographics and interests, clearly we're not talking about small physical spaces, so if we're going to use the term "GLBT community," then we should also be using the term "heterosexual community."  Let's talk about "white community" and "Christian community" too.  Seriously.  Are heterosexuals not a community?  If not, why not?  And then why wouldn't they be, but GLBTs would be?  Same thing for whites and Christians.

And you're right, many blacks and Latinos don't identify as GLBT.  But many do.  But they don't identify as part of the GLBT community.  There's a big difference between the identity and the community, which is exactly why I think to say GLBTs is more accurate.  Because if you want to continue to use the term "GLBT community" to discuss national demographics and interests, then you're leaving out lots of people, not just black and Latino, who identify as GLBT but not as part of the GLBT community.


[ Parent ]
I'm Talking About Language (0.00 / 0)
A lot of people tend to get hung up on language, when the real subject is something else.

Language doesn't work logically so much as it works historically. How we speak today derives from how we spoke yesterday, last week, last year, and so on back to obscure situations that no two people remember exactly the same way.

As a result, language embodies all sorts of tensions, conflicts, convergences, what-have-you, that people put there without even thinking, because it expresseed something that they were in the middle of.  Then folks come along, and start looking at that language, asking what it means and why people use it the way that they do.  All of which is good and fine, until the politics of language starts to become a subsitute for the politics of life its own self. And that's what I was trying to warn against.

I was saying, "It's good to notice this stuff, it's good to be aware of it, but it's complicated and ever-changing, and more important in terms of what it reflects--a flux of relationships--than what it is by itself."

This why this sort of logical, ahistorical argument strikes me as something a Vulcan might say:

But if we're talking about national demographics and interests, clearly we're not talking about small physical spaces, so if we're going to use the term "GLBT community," then we should also be using the term "heterosexual community."

What it ignores is how language works, in at least two important ways.

First, It ignores how language is characterized by mappings (from immediate experience to mediated experience, from concrete to abstract), which the basis of Lakoff's theory of cognitive metaphor, as well as other work that involves more complex mappings.  This is why we talk about national communities in terms of local communities, even though a national community can't have all the attributes of a local community.  It's enough that it has some of those attributes for it to work linguistically.  And, in fact, a local and a national community have far more in common than most source and target domains do.  Which tells me, just in terms of how language works, that it's going to be very difficult indeed to get people to stop talking that way.  It's just a very unnatural demand to be making.

Second, it ignores how language is historical.  "GLBT community" is a phrase that has strong resonance at one time, thus it retains a certain salience because people have grown accustomed to speaking that way.  "Heterosexual community," not so much.  The usages have historicity to them, so that formal similarities today or tomorrow--how politically diverse they may come to be, or whatever--are less important than what sorts of experiences and language uses they are rooted in.

Personally, I don't think that GLBT community was ever particularly homogeneous.  I think the term was always about claiming a hoped-for reality, I think it was always a term of struggle, whether some people realized it or not.  That doesn't mean that other people--such as yourself--shouldn't struggle against it, if that's what you feel you must do.

But I think you've created a mythical past to the extent that you've thought about the past at all.  And I always think it's a better idea to know something of the history of things before you decided which side you should be on (if any side) in any particular struggle.

I think it's a perfectly sensible position for you to use "GLBTs" instead of "GLBT community," if that's the way you want to talk.  But I think that logical reasons about why people shouldn't say "GLBT community" (or "black community," "Latino community," etc.) are most often just silly, based on completely misunderstanding how language works.

Finally, while we're on the topic of logic, there's a logical fallacy in you last paragraph:

And you're right, many blacks and Latinos don't identify as GLBT.  But many do.  But they don't identify as part of the GLBT community.  There's a big difference between the identity and the community, which is exactly why I think to say GLBTs is more accurate.  Because if you want to continue to use the term "GLBT community" to discuss national demographics and interests, then you're leaving out lots of people, not just black and Latino, who identify as GLBT but not as part of the GLBT community.

Just because some people don't themselves identify with the term "GLBT community" that doesn't mean that other people can't use that term to include them.  People use the term "kids," for example, to describe teenagers who bristle at being talked about as if they were in grade school.  That's life.  And that's language.  It's not something that's about to change, because it's a very general fact.

If you want to work up some energy to change something serious in the world, you're much better off chosing something else.  Something that could directly save someone's life, for example.  I understand the good intentions behind what you're trying to do. I'm just saying there's a more productive use for those intentions.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Oh my... (0.00 / 0)
A Vulcan, huh?  Obviously, I don't know my history, so you'll have to refresh my memory.  Are they the ones with the funny ears?  The high foreheads?  Some other identifying feature that I'm sure makes them all part of some mythical, perhaps ahistorical Vulcan community?

You know, for someone making claims about history, you might want to rethink the following statement: "Second, it ignores how language is historical.  'GLBT community' is a phrase that has strong resonance at one time, thus it retains a certain salience because people have grown accustomed to speaking that way."  Lots of phrases (or words) had a strong resonance at one time, but then either go out of fashion or, more importantly, the people being so named start contesting the name, even when, or especially when, "people have grown accustomed to speaking that way."  Are you saying that it's okay to keep using "GLBT community" simply because people are used to it?  That's what your argument seems to boil down to, and while "GLBT community" is not an offensive term, that's an awful slippery slope you might not want to go down.

I think we both know language matters.  Otherwise, why bother having discussions about frames, about Bush Dogs, about hate speech, about all sorts of other things.  And while of course language isn't the be all and end all, continuing to use terms like "GLBT community" perpetuates certain stereotypes, mistaken beliefs, etc. that can, yes, directly affect someone's life.  Why is it that GLBTs are seen as forming a community and straight people aren't?  Why is it that African Americans, for example, are seen as forming a community and white people aren't?  Because language reflects social, political and other factors.  We all know that.  But a language stuck in the past, which it seems to me you're arguing for, doesn't serve much purpose in a very different present.

And just to be clear, I wasn't initially making a big deal about the use of the term, just pointing out why I thought it was, perhaps, at one point useful (your mistaken statement about I've barely thought about the past notwithstanding) but no longer useful.

Now, I have to go watch Star Trek reruns and figure out what I'm supposed to look like and/or for. 


[ Parent ]
No Conversation Here (0.00 / 0)
I was trying to engage in an informative conversation.  But it seems to be pure point-scoring time.

This is the epitome of willful misreading:

Are you saying that it's okay to keep using "GLBT community" simply because people are used to it?  That's what your argument seems to boil down to, and while "GLBT community" is not an offensive term, that's an awful slippery slope you might not want to go down.

Of course, that wasn't what I was saying at all.  I was only part of explaining why assymetrical language usage is not necessarily a sign of anything politically simplistic.  And you've responded with a classic resort to the poltically simplistic.

I withdraw my comparison to the Vulcans.  It was utterly without merit. Your obsession with logical (ahistorical, linguistically naive) analysis has nothing at all to do with logic per se.  It's just a handy weapon for you to use.

Which would make you Klingon.  Except... the way you twist my arguments is without honor.

Maybe one of the species from Babylon 5 would be a better fit.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]
Informative conversation? (0.00 / 0)
You know, if the patronizing tone, name calling and other snide comments you've made throughout this exchange is how you try to engage in an informative conversation, then I really am better watching Star Trek reruns.  Popcorn?

[ Parent ]
Is it any wonder ... (0.00 / 0)
that Faux Noise is trashing Hollywood Fred?  Roger Ailes has already stated he supports Rudy all the way ...  so they are gonna trash Fred at every opportunity

Fortunately . . . (0.00 / 0)
. . . it appears as if all the rethuglican retreads have chosen to ignore Ronnie RayGun's 11th commandment.

What a loverly bunch of kokonutz.  It's GOoPerz all the way down . . . .


How Edwards has been making his money (0.00 / 0)
Did I miss it or has no one commented on the WSJ story from Friday on the hedge fund that Edwards worked for and has $16 million invested in foreclosing on homes with subprime mortgages in New Orleans?  See http://online.wsj.co...

Edwards promised to "help these people," and divest from any Fortress funds that have a stake in the subprime lenders that filed the foreclosures.

The 34 foreclosures is just the number of foreclosures WSJ reporters have identified for New Orleans based on court filings to date.  How many more foreclosures are in the pipeline for New Orleans?  What about foreclosures in other cities?  Fortress is holding billions of subprime mortages nationwide.

Did Edwards have no idea as to how Fortress made money, e.g. by trying to generate a profit out of subprime mortgages that had gone south? Will Edwards burn up his personal fortune trying to bail out every family that Fortress has and will be foreclosing upon in the coming months, or will he stop at the 34 homes in New Orleans? 

This is a significant story and one that isn't going to go away.


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