More Electability: Clinton Coming At Obama From the Partisan Left?

by: Chris Bowers

Sun Aug 19, 2007 at 18:49


It should not come as a surprise to anyone that the electability tit-for-tat between Obama and Clinton last week would continue in today's debate. Electability has almost always played a key role in Democratic presidential nomination contests and, although it does seem to be playing less of a role in 2008 than 2004, until Democrats are viewed by the country as the "natural" governing party again, it will never go away entirely. Currently, it is entirely possible that a significant portion of Clinton's national advantage over Obama is derived from, as I discussed on Thursday, the rank and file's perception that she is more electable than Obama.

In this morning's debate, George Stephanopoulos wasted no time bringing up last week's exchanges on electability, with the question first directed to Obama:

STEPHANOPOULOS: But the Associated Press this week wrote an article. They talked to 40 Democratic activists and officeholders across the country. It led to the series of headlines across the country: "Democrats worry Clinton may weigh down lesser candidates"; "Democrats worry Clinton may hurt the rest of the ticket." Are they right to be worried?

OBAMA: You know, I think Senator Clinton and all the candidates up here are capable. And whoever wins the general election I believe -- whoever wins the primary I believe is going to win the general election.(…)

What I'm suggesting is that we're going to need somebody who can break out of the political patterns that we've been in over the last 20 years. And part of that is the notion that half the country's on one side; the other half's on the other. You maybe have a few people in Iowa or a few people in Ohio and Florida who we're all battling over, and afterwards, we can't govern.

Now, here is what Senator Obama actually said, according to the nifty campaign translation device I just purchased. Everyone here can win the general election, but I can win by the biggest margin and with the longest coattails and thus ensure the strongest governing majority. A narrow, swing-state based victory is not enough, and with her high unfavorables that is probably the best Senator Clinton can do.

At lest to date, polling supports Obama's position on this, although that could change. However, In response, Senator Clinton said the following:

Well, I don't think Karl Rove's going to endorse me. That becomes more and more obvious. But I find it interesting he's so obsessed with me. And I think the reason is because...  (LAUGHTER) ...we know how to win. I mean, you know, I have been fighting against these people for longer than anybody else up here. I've taken them on and we've beaten them.

And I'm very excited about my campaign. I had 18 wonderful years in Arkansas. I'll be there tomorrow, where the governor will be endorsing me. I've had wonderful experiences in upstate New York, where many of the people who voted for me had never voted for a Democrat before. And you know, the idea that you're going to escape the Republican attack machine and not have high negatives by the time they're through with you, I think, is just missing what's been going on in American politics for the last 20 years.

Now, here are Senator Clinton's comments on electability when put through the campaign translation device. Everyone up here says they can win. However, after the Republican Noise Machine gets through with them, who knows? We all thought Kerry could win, too. The difference is that I am a Clinton, and I have already beaten that machine. Thus you know I can win.

Beyond identifying their specific electability arguments, which are fairly predictable and which those of us online have read repeatedly for over six months now, there is another interesting aspect to this electability argument between Clinton and Obama. Specifically, Clinton is actually coming at Obama from a partisan angle, and possibly even from Obama's left. As Jerome notes at MyDD, while Obama's rhetoric is couched in a language of bi-partisan unity, Clinton's is overtly partisan and anti-vast right wing conspiracy:

That's it in a nutshell, on Clinton vs Obama: pragmatic partisanship that wins vs the hope for an idealistic bipartisan politics, isn't it?

I think this is a potentially crushing blow from the Clinton campaign, one that exposes a weakness in Obama's campaign rhetoric thus far. Basically, on electability, Clinton is able to hit Obama from a partisan, left-wing, anti-Republican direction, while Obama is stuck holding the bag of theoretical bi-partisan unity. Clinton's position is clearly a superior one to be in during a Democratic primary campaign, as it helps rile up the base behind her and close off her left flank that earlier in the campaign Edwards and Obama had been able to exploit. The difference in Obama and Clinton's rhetoric has allowed Clinton to shore up her left-wing support through process stories, making further left-ward turns on policy unnecessary in order to maintain her primary advantage. (Of course, that is also helped because neither Obama nor Edwards will go the route of no residual forces, single-payer health care, or carbon tax, three of the key potential left-wing positions for Democrats in this campaign). This is pure genius from the Clinton camp, and not just because that is what I told the Clinton campaign to do back on Wednesday. By taking this partisan route, Clinton is able to rile up the base, and take a centrist (or, at best, center-left) set of policy positions for the general. Even though I have been leaning in his direction more and more these days (I bounce around a lot), I have to admit that this puts Obama in a real bind, one from which no clear escape is apparent.

Chris Bowers :: More Electability: Clinton Coming At Obama From the Partisan Left?

Tags: , , , , , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
Obama's Electability (4.00 / 1)
I think Obama is wearing out his welcome.  He doesn't want to debate because other candidates are going to pick on him.  If he became the president would he say I don't do press conferences because they might ask me an adverserial question. How about meeting with world leaders would Obama need to cancel those out because they won't be nice to him?  GIVE ME A BREAK. Mr. Obama if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.  Wanted a new president -- Adults only need apply.

Electoral Vote Math 2008 (0.00 / 0)
Here's an interesting diary at MyDD regarding electoral votes and the 2008 general election.

The diarist crunched available head-to-head state polls for the general and Clinton beats Giuliani by a larger margin then Obama does.

http://www.mydd.com/...

Personally, I don't think for a moment that Rove is working the "Hillary is fatally-flawed" angle cause he wants the Democrats to put up a "stronger" candidate for the GOP to run against in the general. 

Please!

Since when have Rove and the GOP been the least bit concerned about either a "fair fight" or the "high road"? 

Since when have Rove and the GOP had any interest whatsoever in bi-partisanship, kumbayaing, or any of that crap. 

Personally, I think that Rove is trying to sow seeds of doubt regarding Clinton becuase he's done his homework and has come to the conclusion that she is the strongest Democrat who can win in 2008.

They want to win and will do whatever is necessary to win.  Period.

Rove and the GOP will always play ruthlessly.  We need to be serious about electing a candidate who has a proven track record at beating them!

The Clintons, whatever you may think of them, have that proven track record.


I DIS-AGREE Obama won the debate today. (0.00 / 0)
I think Obama clearly won this devate.

ABC POLL:

Who Do You Think Won the Democratic Debate?

Who do you think won the Democratic debate?

Barack Obama
5,892
Hillary Clinton4,069
Dennis Kucinich3,901
Joe Biden2,729
John Edwards2,325
Nobody won. I'm voting Republican.1,005
Bill Richardson737
Nobody won. I'm waiting for Al Gore to get in the race.669
Mike Gravel623
Chris Dodd156
Total Vote: 22,106
Not a scientific survey.

aol Survey

Obama 35
Clinton 33
Edwards 10

8687 respomdents

Luntz focus group gave it to Obama BY LARGE MARGIN

I think this debate clearly helps him in IA.

Most commentators thought she looked tired and was off of her game today.


[ Parent ]
A proven track record ... (4.00 / 3)
of what, exactly?

I never understand this line of argument.

Bill Clinton never won the popular vote. He annihilated a 40-year Democratic hammerlock on Congress in 2 short years. The legislation he enacted was overwhelmingly Republican legislation; even his hallmark tax increase was undercut, first by slashing the capital gains tax in 1998, before Bush totally eviscerated it.

NAFTA...
welfare reform ...
mandatory minimum sentencing ...
a joke of a "gun control bill" that flopped so spectacularly, the entire party was forced to *choose* to run to the right on guns. ...

And that was Bill Clinton, by the way.

Hillary's only serious political fight in her life was in 2000, in New York. She has no track record of anything, save the single most devastating (to Democrats) comment of any WH official in the run-up to the 1994 elections. ("It's not my fault your business is undercapitalized.")


[ Parent ]
One point (0.00 / 0)
Clinton won the popular vote comfortably, both times he ran. He just didn't win a majority of the popular vote.

But yeah, I generally agree that the strategies that worked for Clinton did not work well for the rest of the party in the 1990's.

[ Parent ]
Check polls after the Dem convention in 1992 (0.00 / 0)
I am doing this from memory, but it's very vivid to me.

At the Democratic convention in 1992, Ross Perot who had been polling in the high teens dropped out of the race.  Clinton/Gore did their famous bus tour.  By the end of the tour their numbers were Clinton/Gore in the high 50's while Pappy Bush stayed at the 39% he had had for a while.  Clinton stayed in that high range throughout the fall. 

The CW in the MSM was that Clinton only won because Ross Perot was in the race.  The actuality was that Perot's reentry took the vast majority of his support from Clinton and what his reentry did was deny Clinton a really big popular vote win.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
That;'s true (0.00 / 0)
I actually had a post at Swing State Project demonstrating that once on a state by state basis, but you can read more concrete numbers here:

Perot and Clinton took votes from each other throughout 1992. They were the change candidates that year. It was only in 1994 that Republicans captured the Perot voters, and captured Congress as a result.


[ Parent ]
I am not convinced (4.00 / 3)
that HRC has that track record.  She got fewer votes than Gore or Spitzer in her NY elections.  Bill Clinton, of course, won convincingly, but in three-way races.  None of this is very convincing evidence either way, and I can't get excited about leading 44-42 in some random states when I don't have confidence that other 7% will go her way. 

I do agree that is the main thrust of her campaign and a plurality of primary voters are buying it.  Let's hope they are right. 

 

New Jersey politics at Blue Jersey.


[ Parent ]
I agree, I don't think Clinton has demonstrated (0.00 / 0)
that SHE can win in a tough race.  In 2004 candidates wanted either Edwards or Obama to come and campaign with them. I don't recall that any outside of Democratic strongholds wanted Hillary to come and campaign with them.

Join other progressives at EENRblog

[ Parent ]
Beat Dogs (4.00 / 3)
Sen. Clinton is taking advantage of the fact that a good portion of the Democratic base is highly cynical and suspicious after 7 years of George W. Bush and more than a decade of Gingrich and DeLay. We've been beat so many times that Obama's outstretched hand to the right is more of a threat than Clinton's clenched fist raised in the direction of the same. Nevermind that Obama is a progressive and Clinton a moderate by any objective reading of their respective records.

Clinton has plenty of strengths but the fact that she's able to sway so many in the liberal base simply by blaming Bush and the GOP is sad. It may be tactically brilliant but it isn't leadership. Obama just may be naive in thinking he can build a progressive govering majority that includes Republicans but it's progressives who are naive if they think Clinton will even try once she's in office. Take a look at the Senate votes for NAFTA and welfare reform from President Clinton's time in office and you'll see exactly the kind of coalition she'll build once in office.

NAFTA -
http://www.senate.go...

Welfare Reform -
http://www.cnn.com/U...

I got a solicitation email from the Clinton campaign the other day saying "Let's keep making ads that George Bush hates". I don't give a crap what George Bush hates. Either have the courage to hold him accountable in this Congress or focus on a better future come '09. "Let's keep making ads that George Bush hates" is the the bloodiest red meat with absolutely no substance. How inspiring.

John McCain


He is much worse than naive (0.00 / 0)
"Obama just may be naive in thinking he can build a progressive govering majority that includes Republicans...."

Sorry but all I can think of are very of negative adjectives like foolish and suicidal.  This Republican party has become one that is ever more right wing than in the decades prior to the 90's.  Nixon's impeachment was only possible because the Republicans of the 70's actually still valued the ideals of good government; this Republican party has absolutely no respect for that and any Democrat who thinks otherwise can only damage his party. 

Frankly that was one of Bill Clinton's flaws as president...he thought too well of  lots of people and Republicans were in that category...and with this 21st Century Republican party that is a disastrous mistake. And it would be Obama's disastrous mistake.

Digby posted this in 2004, a description by the social criticWillaim Hazlitt of rightwingers from 1807...the right and the left temperments don't seem to change.. I reread this regularly.  All Obama partisans should read this and ponder.

"They beat us in courage and in intellect, because we have nothing but the common good to sharpen our faculties or goad our will; they have no less an alternative in view than to be uncontrolled masters of mankind or to be hurled from high---"

"To grinning scorn a sacrifice,
And endless infamy!"

"They do not celebrate the triumphs of their enemies as their own: it is with them a more feeling disputation. They never give an inch of ground that they can keep; they keep all that they can get; they make no concessions that can redound to their own discredit; they assume all that makes for them; if they pause it is to gain time; if they offer terms it is to break them: they keep no faith with enemies: if you relax in your exertions, they persevere the more: if you make new efforts, they redouble theirs. While they give no quarter, you stand upon mere ceremony. While they are cutting your throat, or putting the gag in your mouth, you talk of nothing but liberality, freedom of inquiry, and douce humanité. Their object is to destroy you, your object is to spare them---to treat them according to your own fancied dignity. They have sense and spirit enough to take all advantages that will further their cause: you have pedantry and pusillanimity enough to undertake the defence of yours, in order to defeat it."

I will repeat some lines to highlight them.

In particular remember this.  "if they pause it is to gain time;if they offer terms it is to break them: they keep no faith with enemies:"

But these next lines are Obama's tragic flaw and the flaw of many on our side.

  "While they are cutting your throat, or putting the gag in your mouth, you talk of nothing but liberality, freedom of inquiry, and douce humanité. Their object is to destroy you, your object is to spare them---to treat them according to your own fancied dignity. They have sense and spirit enough to take all advantages that will further their cause: you have pedantry and pusillanimity enough to undertake the defence of yours, in order to defeat it."

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Scary Republicans (0.00 / 0)
Democrats didn't lose a single race nationwide in 2006.

The old  Republican order is decaying. There is a disagreement over whether the best course is to beat the old GOP order to a pulp or build a broader, better governing coalition that the small nativist, racist base of the GOP will have no chance of defeating. Clinton wants to "stand up" to a failing and bloodied GOP machine. Obama wants to move forward. Clinton wants to punch back. I think demographics and the GOP record will be all the reminders voters need to relegate the GOP to minority party status for the near future. Rubbing sand in the GOPs faces may feel good but it's energy that can't be spent doing other things.

There is a difference between being aware of the partisan right and choosing to ignore them (thus denying them the energy from a confrontation with liberals) and not being aware of the problem. Obama is plenty aware of the same right wing machine as Clinton. The right did try to portray him as growing up in a terrorist school, remember? But I don't think the best way to deal with that kind of attack is to talk about it every day. Sen. Clinton thinks it's a badge of honor, I think it's a time wasting trap designed to change the subject from governing to politics. Democrats win  when the topic is what the government should do and it's not an empty victory -- things actually get done to improve our lives.

There will always be ugliness in our country and politics. There are still fascist leaning poltical groups in European that get from 5-15% of the vote, sometimes cleaning themselves up and getting just short of a plurality. But what does standing around and pointing out the flaws of ugly authoritarians do in the way of convincing them? People who live in that space define themselves by hating liberals.

Liberals hating them back just adds fuel to the fire.

John McCain


[ Parent ]
You underestimate their ability to comeback (4.00 / 1)
They haven't decayed to nothingness. In 98 they lost but they came back in 2000.

I don't say we shouldn't have a governing vision, of course we must and we do.  But Hazlitt said it then and it's true now.  "if they pause it is to gain time; if they offer terms it is to break them:" 

I have been around long enough to remember times we thought they were done like after Nixon's resignation, but they paused to lick thier wounds, regroup and return stronger than before.

You're counting your chickens too early . 

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
I agree with some of your points (0.00 / 0)
which is why I think Edwards would be the strongest candidate.  he won against an incumbent Republican senator in a red state.  He has a clearly progressive agenda.  And he campaigns very well on the stump with other candidates.  I still think Obama is stronger than Clinton, but Edwards would be the best.

Join other progressives at EENRblog

[ Parent ]
Obama is not talking about electability (4.00 / 3)
He's talking about governing. I said this on the last post on this topic, too.

But you are right that Hillary is winning this one.

Obama allowed her to turn his positive message about GOVERNING into an elections process story. The traditional media loves those, as we know. She has the blogs to help her out, too.

Maybe it will help her win, but it's not inspiring and does not deserve championing by progressives who are serious about movement building.

Politics is a strong and slow boring of hard boards.


about process? (0.00 / 0)
Jenifer, when you say, "She has the blogs to help her out, too," are you talking about the focus on process?

Join us at the Missouri community blog Show Me Progress!

[ Parent ]
Yeah. (0.00 / 0)
I think it's a terrible thing to be arguing about. It's probably the pain from being in Iowa as Dean slowly tanked. Kerry's people had been making the electability argument there really hard.

Of course we all know how that turned out.

It's a ridiculous argument given that history.

Politics is a strong and slow boring of hard boards.


[ Parent ]
Obama is pushing post-partisanship (4.00 / 1)
Which is not the same as bipartisanship in the current context.  The point has been made here before--he would like a less take-no-prisoners politics because he believes it facilitates better government.  But it is a goal, not something that is possible right now in the current highly polarized situation with the GOP still playing Rovian politics.  His appeal is really for the general, though.  If he gets there.  It may be the wrong moment in time, but I think he felt this was his chance like Kennedy in 1960.

John McCain--He's not who you think he is.

[ Parent ]
I think it is both (4.00 / 1)
It is a governing argument that is tied into electability. Partially, it is about his belief that he can bring people together, which probably comes from his experience as a community organizer. But also, I think, it is an argument about how much he can win by. He's not just talking about pulling people together after an election, ala Bush. He is talking about pulling them together both during an election, and after an election. At least that is how I read it.

[ Parent ]
That was Clinton's argument (4.00 / 1)
Just to be clear. It's a campaign tactic coming from Clinton that you are buying. None of Obama's actual statements infer this. In fact, in every single one he talks about the Democrat winning the general, no matter who they are.

Clinton is firing back quickly because her polarizing nature is, in fact, a problem for her and her very skilled campaign is trying to diffuse it quickly before Obama's argument can get any legs.

Politics is a strong and slow boring of hard boards.


[ Parent ]
I am not buying anything (4.00 / 2)
I'm just describing it. Or, possibly, I'm selling it. Or at least, I should be selling it, since the Clinton campaign seems to have done what I suggested they do after I suggested it.

The late, great Steve Gilliard told me once that he never talked to politicians anymore, or their campaigns, because he wasn't in the habit of handing out free advice. In fact, that is why he didn't come to the Clinton brunch last September. Maybe I should take Steve's advice more often.

[ Parent ]
blogs (4.00 / 2)
They are not helping Clinton.

[ Parent ]
One could argue (0.00 / 0)
That by not picking one of her opponents to support and champion, they are.

Politics is a strong and slow boring of hard boards.

[ Parent ]
Post-partisanship is about moving beyond our racial past (0.00 / 0)
Obama has to try to be "post-partisan" and aim to "pull people together" because otherwise he is just another Black man in America trying to run for President. If he can put across the "post-partisan" stuff, he can erase some lines (per the post below on Dr. Putnam) and maybe get to be President.

I wish him well at the effort -- and I don't know if we are yet a society which can jump that hurdle.

I think his presence in the race helps Clinton because it takes the focus off her gender (improper in a President) -- white women are less generally threatening figures than Black men in our culture.

Can it happen here?


[ Parent ]
please read my post above (0.00 / 0)
I somewhat agree that he's talking about governing, but he also seem s to be talking about campaigning.  However as you can see from the comment to joejoejoe, I also think it's a bad policy toward governing, given the 21st century Republican party.

We have to deal with The Republican we have not the one we might like or imagine could be. 

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
good post (4.00 / 11)
I like the translations. I think you are right.

Let's say this is the angle that Hillary carries into the primary season. The weakness of her position (or the "electability" position in general) is that it sets a clear bar for her performance in the Iowa caucus and early primaries: she has to win, she has to meet expectations.

Ie. If you are selling a red meat fight against Republicans and the impression that you are a "proven winner" then you sure as hell better win big and meet expectations and, critically, be able to do so without disparaging your fellow Democrats.

This last bit is a vulnerability. An early movement or coalescence toward Obama or Edwards that resulted in either candidate exceeding expectations, especially a movement that could be branded as representing something "New and Dynamic in Democratic and national politics" would make a powerful positive argument against the Clinton campaign's tack of relying on her perceived (and currently real) "strength among base Democrats" to carry her through the primaries.

Ie. if Obama were to perform surprisingly well in Iowa, MI and NH..not simply among youth and re-registering crossovers, but generating surprising strength within the base...he could make the case, as you say, that his campaign represents a "Base+" campaign. If Hillary underperforms among the base, her own logic defeats her. She's set the bar on being the frontrunner: she must meet that expectation or face some unappealing strategic realities..ie. attacking Obama/Edwards.

The unspoken reality behind Clinton's strategy is that she can't say that she will be the candidate who will "bring the country together." She won't. She has to go the "anti-Rove" route. In my view, given that, there's not room for her to also attack Obama/Edwards.

Trouble is, if the results in Iowa, MI, NH, NV and SC aren't clear cut...or seem closer than Clinton's comfort level would like in advance polling...she's in the position of having to attack her fellow Democratic AND the big bad GOP. That's a bad position to be in since the Edwards/Obama positive message has an inherent critique of Clinton built into it. eg. Obama can "stay positive" while delivering an inherent critique of Clinton.  Clinton can't. (I think she sounds really weak when she talks about "my opponents.")

It goes without saying that this comes down to who delivers/beats expectations in the early primaries and, whether someone or another of the candidates cuts a deal...and with whom. (Something that's been on my mind lately.)

Bottom line: the problem with setting the expectation that you are a winner and a proven champion of the base is that you sure as heck better deliver that base and do so without alot of inside the party negativity. It creates a fairly inflexible position going into the primaries if you don't deliver, because, in effect, failing to deliver sinks your entire argument.

Don't count Obama or Edwards out.

(Fwiw, Gore would have much the same situation as Clinton, imo.)


Good points (4.00 / 2)
The more a campaign becomes about electability, the more the early states mean, since actually winning elections is a pretty clear test of electability to the general public.

I think that is a good operating thesis, and you are right. This means, I think that the Obama vs. Clinton electability debate is actually very good for Edwards, considering his strength in Iowa. Very interesting indeed...

[ Parent ]
good analysis (4.00 / 3)
This party want change, period, and Clinton has not sealed the deal on that change.  How on earth can she possibly be the change candidate?  That right there is laughable.  That word 'which' has a meaning, can be devistating to Clinton, if the party decides 'enough' we want real change.  And you could tell by the audience, and the one liners she was giving, they did not want it.  That was a tough crowd in Iowa, and she is behind in the poll there.  This is far from over.  And isn't ironic that these national polls state 'one thing' and the early states another.  Clinton has not locked this down by a long shot.

[ Parent ]
"the party" may want change (0.00 / 0)
But Iowans by and large really don't. Or if they do, they want it couched very conservatively.

If there are any other Perfect Stormers reading this, maybe they can chime in, but my impression from watching the caucuses is that being the establishment candidate gives you a truly huge advantage in IA. Huge. Truly. The days of an insurgent sneaking in under the radar and quietly building a ground campaign there are long gone.


[ Parent ]
why can't Hillary be change candidate? (4.00 / 1)
Most people would consider a reversion to Bill Clinton's policies as a huge change from those of George Bush.  Only a "post-partisan" view that sees "Washington" as the problem rather than the Republicans as the problem rules out Hillary as being the change candidate.

[ Parent ]
Never the same river twice (4.00 / 2)
The world has changed since President Clinton was in office from 1992-2000. The tech boom hasn't produced the broad gains in our economy, globalization has caused far worse stagnation among wage earners, and we aren't in a peacetime footing. There are real troubling signs about the economy. You can't snap your fingers and have 1990s Clintonism again.

What will Sen. Clinton do differently to deal with the problems of today?

John McCain


[ Parent ]
Obama can't beat Clinton by staying positive (0.00 / 0)
You say that Clinton would have to go negative to beat Obama/Edwards if the first states are not definitive. But you don't seem to consider that Obama would have to go negative to beat Clinton.  I think you are off the mark assuming that he can beat her by staying positive because his position is inherently critical of her.

Many people in the blogoosphere assume that their negative feelings toward her are shared by the larger baseof the party... so that if one points out that she's not him,  that they too will see her in the same negative lights.  Well they don't now and I don't see how they would later.

If the primaries are unsettled, Obama would be disarming himself by only doing an "inherent critique" rather than a real voiced critiques of the other candidates.  And if he was our nominee  and did that in the general, I wouldn't want to give him a penny.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
partisan left? (4.00 / 2)
It was a very able job of framing the arguments from the Clinton campaign. Unfortunately it is completely belied by 8 years of White house track record. The Bill Clinton White House was very centrist and tried to reach out to the Republicans; for all that it got them...mud slinging, character assasination and general obstructionism from the Repugs. Maybe the Senator has realized this and wants to get elected to go full speed ahead with her original programs before they they were nibbled to death by "policy planners" and "realists" that actually write these presentations for congress. No compromise, full speed ahead...damn the torpedoes. It could be payback time for a whole lot of crap and betrayals that went down during those eight years. I respect her a lot, shes extremely intelligent but I'm still sitting on the fence right now.
At the same time I think that Barack Obama is rather naive or didn't live through the last thirty poltical years of this country. (I didn't since I was working overseas during the 80's and 90's. It did give me a better perspective) Bi partisanship usually means that the Democrat picks up the soap and gets shafted. It hasn't worked in this congress, it didn't work too well during Bill Cliton's years and I don't think it will change in the near future since too many people have been educated at church, at work and on the radio and T.V. by faux noise, a very lax reporting standard and a moral standard that says "we are first before God". If he gets into the presidency they will spit on his outstretched hand. They've been doing it since the beginning of the year to Nancy Pelosi and Senator Reid. I doubt very seriously that he will fair any better.
When you live outside of the U.S. you are either explaining that Bu$h won with a minority, or this is a momentary abberation , or just feeling ashamed. Outside of the U.S. people look up to former President Jimmy Carter and respect him as a real Christian, not like some of the ponticating idiots that we have strolling through the corridors or power these days. It would be wonderful to be able to hold my head up again. Carter may have had his problems but he strove mightily to do right. I think that Edwards would do as well or probably a lot better since he has defined the problem better. I will support who ever is nominated by the party but I also want to win massively with long, long, very long coattails. We need it. The country needs it. 

Why yes, I'm a liberal. Thank you very much!

If true (and I can sort of see it), what you say (4.00 / 3)
here

The difference in Obama and Clinton's rhetoric has allowed Clinton to shore up her left-wing support through process stories, making further left-ward turns on policy unnecessary in order to maintain her primary advantage.

is absolutely sad.

Progressives who get behind Clinton just because she threw them some partisan rhetoric are selling themselves short. I'm not much for voting on rhetoric and election year promises, but surely progressives have enough clout to demand actual left-ward turns in policy. There are still big differences in, to take one example, the Edwards and Obama healthcare plans (both have a path to single payer) and the Clinton plan (I'll get back to you - in my second term).



Hillary waging primary campaign from Al Gore's playbook (4.00 / 3)
Great post.  It made me think of a parallel with 2000:

Hillary is basically running as a DLC Clinton Democrat, and that is what she would govern as.  Likewise, Al Gore ran in 2000 with the same type of legacy.

In 2000, Gore was challenged from the Left by Bill Bradley -- in ways similar to Barack Obama's current challenge to Hillary.  Granted, there are differences but I do think there are parallels here in how they're responding.

As Bradley picked up traction, Gore started attacking Bradley from the Left with a  partisan message of "fighting Reaganomics."  Although Bradley would have been a more progressive President than Gore, like Hillary he was able to challenge him from the Left.

It would be interesting to see who Hillary's consultants are now -- versus who Al Gore's consultatns were in 2000.


Bradley was not more progressive than Gore (4.00 / 4)
There just isn't any evidence of that in how he ran his campaign or his history in the Senate.  What Bradley and Obama have in common is a faith that if you change processes that this will somehow magically result in better policies and outcomes for the American people.  Well I heartily disagree with this position. 

Yo want better policies, then fight for the policies.  Just look at the historical disaster that was one of the biggest Progressive Era process reforms ---iniative and referendum process that has been hijacked by right wing money and spin that keeps screwing up California's ability to govern itself in any coherent, sensible way.

Beware of the process change you wish for.

 

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Yeah, I mean (4.00 / 2)
The DLC approached Bradley to run against Clinton in 1996. I don't think he was a great left wing hero. Of course, Gore has always changed a lot throughout time, too.

[ Parent ]
Compared to Obama, Hillary has always been more partisan (4.00 / 4)
It was something I have thought about her for some time. But many in this community have not noticed this until now. I have said it to many...including people who have worked for her. I said it at the beginning of her campaign and even before that. At the earlier time, it was in terms of discussions around Joe Lieberman and DLC Dems.  I constantly pointed out that unlike Joe, she was proud to be a Democratic partisan, and unlike Joe she never trashed other Democrats or Democratic party principles. She is constantly invoking Eleanor Roosevelt, a foundational person for the Democratic party.

I don't think this is just an election stance for her.  I think she's got more of this "us against them" attitude than Bill. She has more of what St. Exupery called durete. And so I think she would fight the Republicans better than Obama. More than Edwards?... probably not because that has become part of his governing ideology. so if Edwards starts doing well in Iowa and elsewhere I would be much happier than if Obama does.

But if we elect more Democrats and more progressive Democrats in 2008 she will be both forced to govern more progressively and will be enabled to govern more progressively. ...

Francis Fukuyama thought the end of the Cold War marked the end of history, he was wrong.  And winning in 2008 doesn't mean the end of the partisan, vicious Republican party...in that Obama is wrong 

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Ending the GOP isn't necessary or desirable (0.00 / 0)
A slight increase in Democratic power (say 55 votes in the Senate) coupled with less party discipline among the remaining Republicans accomplishes the progressive governing majority Obama espouses. These two factors (a few more seats, a little less GOP discipline) enables Senators like Lugar and Snowe to do whatever they want on policy without running it by Mitch McConnell.

The partisan, vicious Republican party just needs to shrink 10% and have the fiscal moderate wing enabled by Democrats and Independents. Democrats are not ever going to unseat every last rabid Republican from Georgia and South Carolina and replace them with the likes of Paul Wellstone and Russ Feingold - not in half a century at least.

I think Hillary Clinton's rhetoric makes it harder to break up the GOP discipline. It may be that Sen. Clinton sees that as a feature of her rhetoric and not a bug as things like NAFTA and welfare reform passed with near unanimous GOP support and split the Democratic Party during the first go-'round of Clintonism.

John McCain


[ Parent ]
two points (4.00 / 4)
I didn't mean to destroy them totally.  that's not going to happen. However I think initially that the Republican party that emerges will be even more right wing and rigid.  There will be fewer moderates even than now.  If we really are a governing majority for a while then that is when some more moderate Republicans might run and win. 

And to get what's left of the GOP moderates to come over to us, we need both carrots and sticks.  People underestimate the role of strength in creating goodwill.  They agree to work with us because they see that other options are fruitless.

The Pax Romana was created not by nice words alone or the Roman road system, but was long enforced by the strong Roman army.

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Good analysis (4.00 / 6)
I would agree that Clinton's rhetoric is much more suited towards winning the primaries. However, k/o makes a good point above - a Clinton victory is not going to move the country towards the healing that it needs. That doesn't mean working hand-in-hand with the right as it exists today, but it means working towards tomorrow instead of looking back longingly towards yesterday. With Clinton, the main feeling I get is that her presidency will be a retread of the 1990s - a Democratic presidency that is competent but soft on ideology, and a right wing that is going to be insanely difficult to work with in passing real progressive legislation. Obama (and other candidates, such as Edwards) offer a way forward from that - as has been said before, a chance to transcend a political scene shaped by the 'culture wars' of the 1960s and to finally move forward as a country together. It comes to the idea of post-partisanship vs. bipartisanship, which would be an interesting topic to examine.

I would rather beat the Republicans real hard (4.00 / 3)
And then the healing can begin.  Because what will happen if we really beat them badly...probably over time ... is that the psychological middle, the politically indifferent, and and those who abandon the loser to go with the winner will go with us.

That's how the healing will begin. Healing based on being cooperative with people who will stab  you in the back as you reach out your hand to them, is not healing... it is just asking for more hurt.

 

"Incrementalism isn't a different path to the same place, it could be a different path to a different place"
Stoller


[ Parent ]
Some of this stuff is dubious (4.00 / 1)
Oftentimes it seems as if "electability" is a sham, scam, flim-flam label slopped around by beltway gasbags to partly justify their otherwise unsupported opinions of some candidates.  Could be the term is a lot like charisma & pornography: can't define, but know it when ya' see it.

It also seems that some poll analyzers have a few guidelines about "favorables" above the 50 percent mark are indicators of electability & "unfavorables" above the 40 percent mark are nasty & unforgivable--or something.  It appears to me as if there are a lot of US voters who don't want to go have a beer with H. Clinton yet will happily elect her president.

It seems to me that if pollsters ask a few thousand voters about the Democratic party candidates & H. Clinton gets more than 30 percent, Obama gets 20+ percent, Edwards gets in the teens percent & all else get some, the electability question is reasonably answered, at least until those opinions are converted into real votes in primaries.

Except the answers don't suit people who need another version in order to have a horse race & something to blather about in print or on the air.  Whatever, Clinton is doing well in the polls & looking pretty good.


Okay Kid, Chris.... (4.00 / 2)
....you've convinced me. But.

Why doesn't the current leader in IA, that would be Edwards, figure in your comments.

If he wins in IA I would say that would hurt both Hill and Obama. Further, it could change the dynamics of the race quite a bit.

And....

Edwards message is a far more substantive one of hope that Obama's which is, if you look closely, mainly smoke and mirrors.

I've read a lot of Chris's posts on Hillary's support, how deep, how wide etc. and I remain unconvinced that she is going to be the winner. There is still a long way to go and I really don't think people understand yet that she is for staying in Iraq. Period. That she likes the political system just the way it is, thanks. And sees no need for real change.

I believe the people want massive change and that once they realize that she does not represent that they will turn away from her.

So....

I guess we will see.

Peace, Health and Prosperity for Everyone.


Progressive = Post-Partisan (0.00 / 0)
I really think you're missing the point of what Post-Partisanship is.  You talk about the Partisan Left and maybe you're right Partisanship is part of what it is to be Left.  But I hope people can understand that to be Progressive should mean to be Post-Partisan and to move away from the framing that creates a Partsian Left working in a Bi-Partisan way with a Partisan Right.  Clinton is a polarizing figure which means she is  Partisan-izing figure, which is why Rove is hoping she gets the nod.  Yes she will fire up the Partisan Left and she will also fire up the Partisan Right and the only way to govern will be to seek the center and compromise in rather weak and often ineffective bi-Partisanship.

Obama says let's throw away this model and start fresh.  That's why he is the only one really talking change.  Rove knows if Obama is the candidate he can't fire up the Right Wing base along Partisan lines because Obama is not demonizing the Republicans, he's saying let's work on the things which aren't Party issues - like the Environment, Health Care, etc. Most of what he's talking about are what is now considered Democratic issues but he's not framing them that way.  And it  is what allows him to both talk about meeting with every world leader and pushing diplomacy (Democratic property) while at the same time talk about aggressively going after Bin Laden, land that used to belong to the Right. 

It's a radical shift in perception and if we're going to run around with a new word for what we are it should be more than just a word.  Progressive shouldn't be Partisan Left in new clothing.  A Progressive should be for moving forward with people values, not just ideological ones, and realize we can be more than just a Big Tent Party, we can be a Big Tent Government throwing the party in our Tent.


Oh dear God! (4.00 / 2)
Obama says let's throw away this model and start fresh.

It's a nice thought, but it's not his choice to make.

he's saying let's work on the things which aren't Party issues - like the Environment, Health Care, etc.

What do you mean, these things aren't party issues? Which party has consistently fought to gut environmental regulations and block health care reform?

Join us at the Missouri community blog Show Me Progress!


[ Parent ]
I see no reason to think Obama (0.00 / 0)
is to the left of Hillary, so it's perfectly plausible that she would come at him from the left.  Further, Obama takes a risk here because a majority of americans think he lacks experience to become president, so they may not take his argument to seriously.  Also, some polls support his thesis, others do not.  For example, she's decisively beating Giuliani in Florida, he's tied with him.

Arkansas! (4.00 / 1)
Not to mention Michigan and Arkansas.  Friggen Arkansas!

[ Parent ]
hallo (4.00 / 1)
I check a lot of the progressive blogs frequently, but rarely comment, because I usually feel out of my depth discussing certain things, but I was interested in this, so here goes. This is more in reaction to various comments than to the post itself.

I don't know for sure who my candidate is, but at the moment I lean towards Hillary. And none of the criticisms of her, or the high praise of her chief opponents, really ring true for me.

The three frontrunners here are Hillary, Obama, and Edwards. They all seem to have taken different, but clear, paths to the nomination. Hillary is going with experience and yeah, inevitability. Obama, his "let's all be friends" thing which is extrapolated from his unexpectedly successful convention speech in 2004. Edwards, a solidly progressive appeal to the netroots.

I don't doubt that any of these three would make good presidents, and certainly a galaxy of improvement over what we have now. But look, Hillary's vote in 2002 or whatever was for war authorisation wasn't a voice of support for near-unilateral, preemptive war. There were conditions involved, and Bush bullshitted his away around them. Nobody here can seriously think that a President Hillary Clinton would in 2003 have invaded Iraq. Or that a symbolic "no" vote would have changed anything.

You know what? I tend to assume that her vote in 2002 was a somewhat cynical weighing of the political benefits versus practical benefits, and I don't really give a shit. Given the environment at the time, her vote was the right one to take. As much as anyone else here, I know that President Hillary wouldn't have invaded Iraq in 2003, and that a no vote wouldn't have stopped it.

I also know that John Edwards' vote at the time was probably made for similar reasons, and that he wouldn't have invaded Iraq, and that his no vote wouldn't have made a difference either. And that his apology for his vote, no matter how sincere, was a necessary political calculation for the angle he wanted to take in his campaign. Come on, people. If Hillary doesn't apologise, well, she has good reason not to, because she wasn't giving permission for what Bush actually did, and it doesn't fit into her political approach this cycle.

And Obama? How hard is it to oppose war authorisation when you're not in the Senate? Who cares what he had to say? Okay, like Hillary and Edwards, he wouldn't have invaded Iraq in 2003. I see no practical difference.

I see three great frontrunners for the Democratic nomination, all taking very clear, very expected, and very natural paths to the nomination. All the debate about these war votes and other various rhetorical issues are beside the point. In my opinion, Hillary is the most qualified for the office, so she has my vote. I do have a lot of respect for Edwards and his openness with policy positions, but I do see that a lot of what some people in the netroots see in him is campaign rhetoric. And Obama, I'm sure he'd work out well enough as president, but "United we stand" isn't going to cut it for me.

I'm just tired of people pretending that Clinton is some cynical centrist who doesn't give a shit about anything we care about, and that Obama and Edwards are, bereft of ambition, seeking only to do what's best for the country, whether through Obama's "post-partisanship" (good luck with that, Barack), or Edwards' calculated outreach to the progressive netroots.

Again, they'd all be fine presidents, but please try to recognise the politics involved for all candidates, and try to focus on what you honestly think these people would be like in office.


Donate to Open Left








Friends of the Earth thanks the OpenLeft community for the ideas you generate and your contributions to the progressive movement.

As an anti-spam measure, there is a 24-hour waiting period after registering before new users can comment.
blog advertising is good for you
blog advertising is good for you
SEARCH

   

Advanced Search