It Ain't About 60 Votes

by: Chris Bowers

Wed Oct 15, 2008 at 11:49


As Matt and I have argued for some time, 60 votes in the Senate is not actually a magical goal. Matt has correctly pointed out that virtually all major legislation passes the Senate with far more than 60 votes, and the real target should to be a progressive block of 25-30 Senators without whom nothing can get done in the chamber. I have argued that, in terms of passing actual legislation, the real target is six more seats (for 56 plus Lieberman). Tack on the Employee Free Choice Act, and the target is eight (for 58 plus Lieberman).

Now, some experts are backing up our arguments, pointing out that 60 Democratic Senators is simply not a magic number for an Obama administration:

Experts in both political parties say that a majority in the high 50s would clear the path for a lot of legislation.

"I think that a 58- or 57-vote Democratic majority in the Senate would be able to get cloture in a very large number of instances where the current Senate was not able to, and that's simply because of the 42 or 43 Republican senators that will come back," said Scott Lilly, a senior fellow at the liberal Center for American Progress and a former House Appropriations Committee staff director. "Those are the guys who are going to be under real pressure to show they can cooperate to move an agenda."

"Any Democrat[ic] pick-ups beyond 55 essentially get you to 60 on almost any issue without exception, barring card-check and right to work," a Republican strategist said, referring to two hot-button workplace issues that pit labor against business. "Whether you have replaced a Smith with a Merkley, a Collins with an Allen, or a Smith and a Collins remain, the ability of Reid to add them to his total to be able to invoke cloture, and the challenge for McConnell to keep them with him at 41 to beat cloture, is easy for Reid and increasingly hard for McConnell."

This is essentially the same argument I have been making for some time. A closer look at voting patterns in the Senate reveals that 56 Democrats is a magic number for most legislation already on the table. Beyond that, 58 plus Lieberman and Specter would be enough for one of the four major positive feedback loops: the Employee Free Choice Act. We should be able to pass two other feedback loops, election reform and media reform, with 56 votes. The fourth positive progressive feedback loop, immigration reform, does not appear viable unless we win something like 15 seats. Maybe we can pull that one off in 2011-2012.

Leaving my bean counting tendencies aside for the moment, I want to return to Matt's basic argument. Sixty Democratic votes in the Senate doesn't mean a progressive governing majority has arrived if there is no progressive leadership or voting block in the Senate. Remember, the majority of Senate Democrats voted for the authorization for the use of military force in Iraq, for example. Also, large numbers of Senate Democrats, in some cases a majority, voted for blank check war funding, retroactive immunity for telecoms, and the bailout package. It is important to disabuse ourselves of the notion that only Republicans are blocking a progressive legislative agenda. Sixty votes is not a substitute for progressive leadership, and focuses only on the "more" side of "more and better Democrats." It would be nice, but there is nothing magical about the number.

Chris Bowers :: It Ain't About 60 Votes

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One Caveat (0.00 / 0)
We are talking about Harry Reid here. Harry needs to put every wavering, weak sister, Bluedoggy Senator (Ben Nelson, Bill Nelson, Mark Pryor, Blanche Lincoln, Tim Johnson, Mary Landrieu, etc.) on notice that, if any of them votes against cloture on any major piece of legislation, that there will be severe consequences. They can happily be tools and vote against some of these bills (EFCA) on final passage, but there needs to be a line in the sand drawn on cloture votes.

Mary Landrieu just last year was the deciding vote on filibustering the Dems' energy bill -- she voted with the Republicans against cloture. This cannot be allowed to happen in the 111th.

I do believe you're giving Joe Lieberman too much credit. After he is kicked out of the caucus, he won't be helping us out on anything -- he is a mean, spiteful, little man. Olympia Snowe, on the other hand, probably will help us out now that she sees the writing on the wall.

I still think we'll get 60 (minus Lieberman, so at least 61 total), and we'll have free reign.


If we can take Susan Collins down somehow .. (4.00 / 1)
it is a guarantee that Olympia Snowe will get with the program ... besides .. there will be no down side for her

[ Parent ]
Right (4.00 / 1)
And I believe Snowe is up for re-elect in 2010, so she might feel the need to press her bipartisan bona fides by working with us to maintain her profile. She really is the last moderate Republican in any meaningful way -- Collins is nothing of the sort.

[ Parent ]
oops, you're right (0.00 / 0)
2006 seems so long ago ...  

[ Parent ]
GOP will go full Kristol on us again (4.00 / 3)
60 votes is a minimum to get something passed. I wouldn't expect any cooperation from Republicans not even Specter. They will try to repeat their strategy from the first 2 years of the Clinton administration of utter obstructionism and letting the Democrats fully own any legislation that passes so they can run against it in 2010. Lieberman has become a Republican in practice if not in name. I wouldn't count him to vote for any progressive legislation in the future. Also the Employee Free Choice Act, election reform, and media reform? What happened to health care reform and a comprehensive new energy policy/plan to slow global warming? Those are the two big ticket items that will need to be passed in the next Congress.

Grr! How do I add a Quick Hit? (0.00 / 0)
My button's gone. Would someone add this wonderful bit of business to the Quick Hits? Found it via Kevin Drum.

And, um, sorry for the OT.


What's the history w/r/t Cloture votes? (0.00 / 0)
Senators do sometimes vote for cloture and against legislation.

I get the impression that historically - some - Senators are reluctant to support filibusters except in a few cases. I do not know if that has changed?

What's the record for R Senators doing as such?

If there are Rs who regularly vote for cloture and then against legislation, then we do not need 60 senators.


why do we need 62-66 Democratic Senate votes to pass immigration reform? (0.00 / 0)
Chris, why do we need 62-66 Demcratic Senate votes to pass immigration reform?  Immigration reform is a huge priority for Democrats.  This seems like it deserves its own blog entry.  Also, how many Senate (and House) votes would we need to repeal right-to-work laws in the South (and several other states)?  We need to start unionizing the South.

So, where we stand... (0.00 / 0)
If I'm counting right, MN and OR are 56 and 57. GA and AK are 58 and 59. I guess that makes MS #60? KY, TX and ME are 61-63...

Conduct your own interview of Sarah Palin!

Never Trust A Republican (4.00 / 4)
"Any Democrat[ic] pick-ups beyond 55 essentially get you to 60 on almost any issue without exception, barring card-check and right to work," a Republican strategist said, referring to two hot-button workplace issues that pit labor against business. "Whether you have replaced a Smith with a Merkley, a Collins with an Allen, or a Smith and a Collins remain, the ability of Reid to add them to his total to be able to invoke cloture, and the challenge for McConnell to keep them with him at 41 to beat cloture, is easy for Reid and increasingly hard for McConnell."

First off, the challenge for Mitch McConnell is going to be finding someone to return his phone calls, once he's out on the streets.

Second, never trust a Republican. You can't even trust a good chunk of DC Democrats, for that matter.  You really need, like 65 or so, just be sure you can get 60 every time.

The fact that lots of legislation passes with 80-some votes is a red herring here.  It says nothing about all those voters that never happen because we can't break cloture.

We need to take away even the possibility of cloture abuse.

Sure, we could probably get most things done with 56-58 votes.  But we would also be devoting a lot of time and energy to strategic struggles that shouldn't even be on the radar screen.

So, let's see if we can't get 62.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


I would feel very good with (0.00 / 0)
58 (not counting Lieberman.)

The President makes a difference. (0.00 / 0)
Blue Dogs and the like tend to slavishly follow polls and power. With Obama in the White House the power will be with the progressives. The atmosphere will no longer be scary for them, so they'll go much more with the majority. Where things will get touchy is cases where Obama follows his "centrist" bent on international relations and the progressives try to push him left. On domestic issues, that should happen much less.

The big question, as the diary notes, will be progressive bloc leadership. Seems to me the priority, after getting as many Dems elected as possible, is to figure out how to make progressives the dominant faction among Senate Dems.


Judges? (4.00 / 1)
Wouldn't 60 basically remove any roadblock for any judge that Obama might want to appoint?  I know that wasn't a problem for Bush, but the Senate Democrats are usually a lot less unified than the Senate Republicans.  I imagine that 40 of them could band together to block any Obama appointment they may not like.

More progressives (0.00 / 0)
These days, almost every Democrat is more progressive than the Republican she/he runs against. So the more Democrats who win, the better it is for us. With the momentum for Democrats we have now, I'm hoping Democrats can push just a little harder and pick up 9-12 seats. Every Democrat who is likely to win will be better than the Republican they replace.

So Chris, who is the leader of the progressive bloc? (0.00 / 0)
Is there a progressive bloc, really?  I'm not being sarcastic, it's just that I really don't know.  If Feingold is it, why is he so quiet?  Bernie Sanders seems to raise more hell up there than Feingold.  

Maybe one day, you could do a primer for some of us.    

They're asking for another four years -- in a just world, they'd get 10 to 20. ~~ Dennis Kucinich  


I don't think it has a leader (4.00 / 1)
It's a collection of interested individuals, not a faction in the normal party terminology.

Forgotten Countries - a foreign policy-focused blog

[ Parent ]
Actually, yes there is a bloc (4.00 / 1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...

Bernie Sanders founded it when he was in the House and remains a member even as a Senator.

It's a decent number of people, too.

Karl in Drexel Hill, PA


[ Parent ]
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