DADT (4.00 / 1)

I hadn't realized that was considered "too far left"

I suppose "drive the gays into the sea" was the acceptable centrist policy option?  Slightly less extreme than "burn them at the stake for witchcraft and moral decay" (the center-right choice) and "lock them in prison" (the center-left option)

These people are out of their minds.  And they run the world.

---

by: Daniel De Groot @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 14:22:48 PM CST

Don't ask don't tell (4.00 / 2)

Clinton had run on a promise to let gays serve openly. There was a huge backlash. "Don't ask don't tell" was what we ended up with after Clinton essentially caved on the issue.  

miasmo.com

---

by: miasmo @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 16:35:54 PM CST

[ Parent ]

15 years ago (0.00 / 0)

was a lifetime in public opinion about homosexuality

---

by: yoyoyo @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 18:36:12 PM CST

[ Parent ]

15 years ago (0.00 / 0)

was a lifetime in public opinion about homosexuality

---

by: yoyoyo @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 18:36:13 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Penn is full of crap (4.00 / 1)

I would argue the exact opposite.  A great deal of the problem with Clinton's governance in 1992-1994 was that he wasn't progressive enough to be seen as coming through with his campaign promises.  

---

by: PoliOperative @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 14:34:51 PM CST

Progressive change is always at risk of dying (0.00 / 0)

By its very definition, it requires people to think about doing things differently.  And that is scary, not just to power brokers, but even to the average person.

This kind of change requires constant vigilance.

Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to www.edwardgtalbot.com for a free audio thriller.

---

by: egtalbot @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 14:37:58 PM CST

I actually agree with you today David (0.00 / 0)

entirely.. but would like to wait to discuss fully till after the results tomorrow..  

---

by: sc1962 @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 14:46:44 PM CST

the center wants more corporate responsibility regulation, wants trade reform, and wants investments in our infrastructure (4.00 / 1)

That's pretty centrist.

It's not like Obama is gonna give us universal day care, let alone universal health care. It's not like Obama is gonna give us absolute marriage equality. It's not like Obama is going to withdraw all the troops from Iraq. But America is basically a progressive nation: we basically drop the shit that isn't working, and try to improve equal opportunity for everyone.  

---

by: danthrax @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 14:50:02 PM CST

Right (4.00 / 1)

Our fundamental pragmatism makes us progressive.  But people don't usually think of this as ideological.  There's a disconnect on the analysis/self-description side.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

---

by: Paul Rosenberg @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 17:02:27 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Fear of a Dem Planet (4.00 / 2)

I turned on CNN and MSNBC a couple of hours ago and they were simultaneously running panic-inducing pieces about what could happen if the Dems gains a substantial majority in Congress. Message: Be afraid. Be very afraid.

The corporate media is clearly terrified. They are hoping to scare as many Obama voters as possible into splitting their tickets tomorrow. I hope they fail miserably.  

---

by: Oaktown Girl @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 15:29:05 PM CST

I'm Not a Neocon, but.... (0.00 / 0)

Is it possible for a black, civil rights advocating, pro-gay leftist to share the view that the nation remains center-right, or that it is centrist (unmodified)?  Or is that critique only possible by people who have a hysterical fear of liberalism?

I, a progressive, actually agree with the argument that Obama's election and the Democratic expansion of Congress have less to do with ideology than with a repudiation of Bush's ineptness, his failure fighting the war, and the downturn in the economy (which hardly results from any ideology -- except greed), and the utter ineffectiveness of McCain's campaign.  Historically, voters have repudiated liberal and conservative presidents for the same reasons.  Accordingly, much of the "irrational exuberance"  among Democrats rests on ahistorical or conclusory arguments.  Granted the nation has "changed" since 1994, but has it changed ideologically? What is the basis for such a conclusion? Many polls show that the vast majority of Americans describe themselves as moderate or conservatives.  Liberals are at the bottom of the scale.  This has not shifted much over the last decade.  Even a good chunk of blacks -- the most Democratic-voting demographic in the country -- identify as conservative (and even more support socially conservative policies).

Also, given Obama's own embrace of conservative and moderate positions, why should progressives believe that voting for him represents a monumental or even moderate leftward movement in the electorate? How do you square the fact that McCain led until the banks starting collapsing with the claim that the nation was already left-leaning? If Obama's election represents a new progressive spirit in the country, then why is California -- where he leads by over 20pts -- close to passing an anti-gay constitutional amendment??? Apparently, many Obama voters, even in the blue state of California, remain center-right.

Finally, as someone solidly on the left, I believe that dichotomies (e.g., liberals/Democrats/good vs. Republicans/conservatives/bad; arguing country centrist/fears change vs. saying country liberal/true progressive; praising Obama/good/forward-looking vs. not supporting him/racist/conservative/neocon) do not advance the cause of progressive politics.  Now, more than ever, is the time for reasoned discourse, dissent, and engagement.  If Obama's election means that we bash people who do not share "our" views (which aren't even monolithic), then in many ways, we have simply re-elected Bush!

PS: I have written on this before (here and elsewhere). Enjoy.

 http://dissentingjustice.blogs...

http://dissentingjustice.blogs...

---

by: damitajo1 @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 16:39:48 PM CST

Ignore Penn at your peril (4.00 / 1)

Penn has been right more often than wrong. If he tells you the ice floes are breaking on the river, well you still may find a way to get across, but don't assume it'll be easy.

Clinton ran up against some of his early over-confidence. I imagine Obama may be wary of that (including with Clinton's advice), but it's not like he hasn't made a few missteps.

So yes, we have a fundamentally conservative country. I'm arguing with "progressives" on another blog about whether breaking your marriage vows disqualifies you for office. These folks on the left would strip search you and tear apart your apartment for the "right" reason just like the conservatives would. In 2003, Bush had 80% approval to go to war. In 2006 Democrats barely got a majority with such an amazing amount of Republican corruption, including a pedophile at the Congressional page dorm scandal. So things have widened quite a bit, but that's both because the right doesn't like McCain and finally there's just too much shit to contain. But their tolerance for absurdity will return.

---

by: Desider @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 16:47:38 PM CST

Whuahaha! (4.00 / 2)

Clinton lost BECAUSE of Penn's ridiculous advice that enraged the base against her. Wouldn't be surprised if even the idiotic idea not to apologize for her Iraq vote screwup came from him. No, Penn's dumb centrism was the wrong direction for this election cycle. The time was ripe for a program for serious changes, but Penn didn't have a clue. If John Edwards wouldn't have shown the way, Penn sure would still advocate against universal health care. Pathetic.

Really, strange advice you give here. And your prejudices against progressives makes me wonder why you're posting at this blog. Do you think you may e able to convert anybody here to your kind of hardcore "centrism"? D'oh.

---

by: Gray @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 17:24:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Ha ha ha (0.00 / 0)

Go ahead, call me a Republican or a troll or whatever makes you feel better. As Matt & Chris have pointed out numberous times, Obama is no progressive. Which might clue you in to why his margin looks to be so high. I'm certainly not thrilled about the flip on FISA or the promise of more troops for Afghanistan. But this kind of skip roping seems to be what keeps candidates and politicians alive.

Don't like it? Rouse up the base. But don't think Mark Penn's to blame just for calling it like he sees it.

(And you can put down your lighter for Edwards - he is so over.)

---

by: Desider @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 18:16:27 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Come on, I didn't (0.00 / 0)

I just pointed out that this is the wrong blog to expect much sympathy for centrist opinions. Especially if they are so controverisal as your view of Penn. Even many, if not most, moderates will not agree that Penn is a genius. And from what was reported about the shockingly underperforming Clinton camapign, it really takes a wide stance to argue that Penn had the right ideas. After all, the situation only started to improve when Clinton seemed to move away from Penn's ideas.

And, excuse me pls, but I actually agree that Obama is no dyed in the wool progressive! After all, I supported the much more left wing Edwards at the start. But wtf has Penn to do with this? He has been horribly wrong in the last years, and he is wrong once again by insisting on Obama to follow a center/right direction. A stronger change of direction is necessary now, not something that is so close to the failed republican policies.

"And you can put down your lighter for Edwards - he is so over."
I don't support the idiotic American way of expecting politicians to be saints in their private lifes. I still think Edwards is a great guy, and would be a strong force for the right kind of reforms if he would paly a role in the coming administration. I know that's unlikely, but that doesn't make it less true.

---

by: Gray @ Tue Nov 04, 2008 at 06:44:42 AM CST

[ Parent ]

yes! (0.00 / 0)

I neglected to mention the huge amount of support for the war.  Obama himself voted for the Schiavo act too -- and that was just a few years ago.  He calculated on the nation being conservative. It is. To me, that vote suggests his anti-war stance is a bit exaggerated. If he voted for that ridiculous Schiavo legislation in an effort to appease the middle of the country, I seriously doubt he would have opposed the war with 70% of Congress and most of the nation supporting it.  I have not seen anything about Obama that goes against what the majority of the country wants since he has been in the Senate. That makes Obama himself a centrist.  

---

by: damitajo1 @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 18:19:49 PM CST

[ Parent ]

If there wasn't some truth to the argument (0.00 / 0)

then Barack Obama would not have been afraid to take some of the steps that you have justly criticized him for.  It STILL doesn't pay to let yourself get painted as a leftist.  If there weren't some truth to the argument, Obama doesn't cave on FISA, maybe doesn't support the bailout, etc., doesn't feel compelled to praise John McCain's patriotism every other day.

So it's important to understand this argument before you tear it to shreds.

Now, I happen to think it's way overblown.  Obviously, the potency of attacks on Democrats as leftists is way down.  In previous years these would have carried the day.  Now they may serve only to reduce Obama's totals somewhat.

Most of the talk is from these "Villagers" scared to death about this.  But the death of this center-right orientation is still in the future, not the past.  Hopefully the not-too-distant future.


sTiVo's rule: Just because YOU "wouldn't put it past 'em" doesn't prove that THEY did it.

---

by: sTiVo @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 17:18:14 PM CST

Although (4.00 / 1)

To a certain extent, it doesn't matter what they say--only that it's critical.

They could be saying he's too vertically-oriented, for all the difference it makes. If it's a form of criticism, that's all that matters.  So, if that were the criticism, we'd be forced to spend time pointing the whole walking upright thing, and the crucial role it plays in allowing us to develop our hands for grasping things, then for toolmaking, etc.

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

---

by: Paul Rosenberg @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 17:31:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

A pretty silly theory (0.00 / 0)

Your theory is predicated on the idea that whatever Barack Obama does or doesn't do is a perfect reflection of where the country is and isn't. That's absolutely silly.

There has been ample evidence - overwhelming really - that most politicians are well to the right of mainstream public opinion. And that includes, at times, Obama. So (to put it into Obama language) the notion that Obama's actions are somehow a perfect reflection of the American "center" is really an incredible stretch. Some might say such a notion reeks of pure whatever-Obama-does-is-right cultism.

---

by: David Sirota @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 17:59:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Another silly theory (0.00 / 0)

Another silly theory holds that support for Obama proves that the nation is center-left/left. Obama was marketed by many of his supporters as a leftist progressive, and these same people now point to his electoral success as an indication that the country has repented of its horrible rendevous with conservatism.  I find this proposition specious at best.

Furthermore, I accept your argument, to the extent that you believe a victorious candidate's actions or positions do not necessarily reflect the core values of the nation.  Accordingly, even if I were to concede that Obama is indeed a leftist (which I believe he is not), this does not mean that his likely victory proves the country is center-left.  In other words, your argument provides support Penn and people who agree with his perspective.

Finally, there are progressive reasons to agree with Penn ("we have a lot of work to do") and conservative ones ("Obama is out of touch").  I think that most people on here are offering a progressive critique, and it is important for us to appreciate the significance of this fact.  

---

by: damitajo1 @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 18:32:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

It doesn't matter what Obama really is. (4.00 / 1)

The absolute disaster this country is in requires large changes, or his administration will be an immense failure. The times dictate his course. He doesn't have a blank slate.

---

by: yoyoyo @ Mon Nov 03, 2008 at 18:39:59 PM CST