Theory of Change: How I Stopped Being a Radical

by: Chris Bowers

Thu Jul 01, 2010 at 13:54


A slow news day has me thinking meta.  Specifically, it has me thinking about how far I have drifted in my politics over the past decade, becoming disillusioned with the radical, agitating left, and growing much more willing to engage politics from the mainstream and institutional inside.

More in the extended entry.

Chris Bowers :: Theory of Change: How I Stopped Being a Radical
In the year 2000, without the foresight of the Bush years and the political aftermath of 9/11, there was a pretty decent, even pragmatic, progressive argument to be made in favor of supporting the Green Party.  The argument went something like this:

  • It was led by someone who had actually delivered on progressive change much of his life, Ralph Nader.  He had built numerous, successful campaigns, and lasting institutions to keep running those campaigns, which over the previous three decades had engineered an entire swath of consumer protection laws.

  • It was allied with a new army of headline grabbing protesters.  Starting with Seattle in December of 1999, lefties were actually taking to the streets, getting media coverage when they did, and altering the political debate on corporate power as a result.  This activist, protester strength was reinforced by the “Super Rallies” in the autumn of 2000, which at the time were quite notable for getting thousands of people to attend a campaign appearance.

  • It was international. An international neoliberal wave required an international populist response, and the Greens were the only political party with an international presence of both protesters and political candidates.

  • It was growing.  Both domestically and internationally, Green parties were increasing their number of supporters, and regularly winning converts.

  • It was creative and self-organizing. Even apart from the new technology used in the anti-globalization protest movements, websites like NaderTrader, VoteSwap and VoteExchange were, collectively, some of the first instances of mass, self-organized online activism.  This combination of creative organizing and strategic thinking demonstrated real promise for the future.  Nothing like it was happening in either major political party.

  • Change and third parties were in vogue. The 1990’s had the strongest electoral showing for non-segregationist third parties at both the Presidential and Congressional level in decades.  In that context, and if the Soviet union could fall, why not the two-party system, too?
If you were a lefty looking for a pragmatic means to achieve change in 2000, supporting Nader and the Green Party seemed neither unreasonable nor impractical.

But it didn’t work.  In fact, it completely backfired, and did so in almost exactly the way that center-left opponents of the Green Party said it would.  Here is what happened after 2000:

  • Public policy under total Republican control of all three branches of government proved to be far more extreme and right-wing than even a mix of Republican and DLC control.  This undercut the notion that change could not happen through the Democratic party, even through the right-wing of that party.

  • The anti-globalization movement promptly, and at the time I thought rather cynically (I had participated in previous anti-globalization protests), transformed itself into an anti-war movement less than three weeks after September 11th. This undercut the notion that protesters were an actual populist movement, and not just protesting for the sake of it.

  • Al Gore came out against the war in Iraq in September of  2002, which really hammered the first and second points on list list home, at least for my part.

  • It wasn’t long before the rallies for Democratic candidates like Howard Dean and John Kerry put anything that the Greens did to shame in terms of pure size.  This was also the case in terms of clover online organizing, which quickly became dominated by pro-Democratic progressives.

  • The Green Party shed over 80% of its supporters, and as a result had to be taken even less seriously by Democrats than it was in 2000.  Further, Democrats like Howard Dean made the party stand up and notice left-wing resentment far, far better than Ralph Nader had ever done.
The last point is perhaps the most important of all–the Greens lost most of their supporters because they failed to convince people they were making a positive difference. Whether they convinced you or not is irrelevant, since ultimately you cannot make a difference unless you are persuading people to join you.  Politics is fundamentally about the mobilization of resources in support of your cause, and if you are losing your supporters (who are the most important resource of all for lefties), then you are abjectly losing your political campaign.

This isn’t to imply that some sort of unquestioning devotion to political candidates with a “D” after their name has proven to be some sort of cure-all for progressive woes.  That is far from my point, and if that is the point that is coming across it is due to my own lack of clarity.  Defeat after defeat on the legislative front has shown us the tremendous limits to purely partisan and electoral organizing as well.

Rather, what this article is meant to imply that any successful left-wing organizing must persuade large numbers of people that it is, and will continue, to make a positive difference.  We can’t win without broad based popular support, even though we often lose with broad-based popular support.  And to get those people behind you, you need to convince them you have a workable theory of change.

Not everyone is going to be convinced by the same theory of change, and we should not expect them to be so. However, what I do hope to convince most people of are the qualities that under-gird any successful theory of change: the need for popular support, the need to demonstrate results, the need to be engaged in the process at every level (including Overton Window agitation, but also including finding more ways for people to become activists, and even to having a Capitol Hill presence), and the willingness to participate in a long slog.  If you can’t meet all of those criteria, you are never going to convince me that you have a successful theory of change.  I hope you won’t convince many others, too.

With vanishingly few exceptions, supporting third parties fails to meet every criteria in this test.  This is not a universal conclusion, but it is nearly so.  I feel a lot better thinking about the concrete victories, however few,  that were won on health care, education, and, if it passes, financial reform, then I do thinking about Al Gore opposing the Iraq war even as I marched in the streets against it.

No matter how many defeats were mixed in with these victories (and there were a lot more defeats in the mix), it is nice to have some victories that will actually help people, rather than just signing a manifesto.  It is why I plan to continue progressive agitation and organizing within existing institutional structures (the Democratic Party, Congress, mass media), rather than outside of those structures.  I know that not everyone lefty reading this will agree with me, and that many who do not have reasonable arguments for why not.  However, I also hope that most of you reading this will agree with me, and that you will join me, and that in so doing will will make enough of a difference for our efforts not to be in vain.

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Self-fulfilling outcome (4.00 / 9)
To slam the Greens and other alternative, non-mainstream parties for losing their supporters, while you, yourself abandoned them, pretty much defines a self-fulfilling situation.

As usual, when the shit hits the fan – 9/11 attacks, rise of the neo-cons and permawar – some folks seek the security of well-established social/political structures. Right at the time that alternatives are most needed.

So sorry that the left let you down.


“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


 
Sure, but that changes (4.00 / 2)
nothing. Self-fulfilling situations are still real situations.  

[ Parent ]  
Just a comment (0.00 / 0)
no slam intended. We are all trying to deal with the political and social realities we perceive.

The Two Party Duopoly is one such reality. Some prefer to deal with that reality by resisting it, rather than joining it.


“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
I hope this doesn't come across as nitpicking, (4.00 / 3)
but how does one resist the two-party duopoly?

I guess I think that refusing to participate in the two-party duopoly actually supports it. And that supporting a third party also, actually, empowers the two-party duopoly. That’s my problem: I’m not sure what comprises a resistance that actually resists.


[ Parent ]  
At this moment (4.00 / 1)
Vote Boycotts and working to reform the electoral system to make alternative parties more viable. Instant runoff, proportional voting, that kind of thing.

It would also be a step in the right direction if those in the mainstream parties would simply stop trying to undercut the alternatives. Say, by not making folks like Nader jump through so many hoops just to get on the ballot, for example. Or maybe by taking responsibility for their own electoral losses and not pointing fingers at the “third party” candidates for “spoiling” the election.  Just a matter of attitude and perspective.

Even if one stays within one of the duopoly parties – what is the long-term goal? To take control of one of the two, or to bring more democracy to the system by opening it up?  

“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
I'm probably asking for a whole diary (4.00 / 5)
about this, instead of just some comments, but how do vote boycotts resist the duopoly? The duopoly loves vote boycotts. And how does one reform the electoral system from outside the duopoly? Through control of the media?

As far as asking people in the mainstream parties to stop undercutting the alternatives, that’s asking the duopoly to resist the duopoly, and I’m not sure what the motivation would be.

Far as your final questions, I’d say ‘both.’


[ Parent ]  
Ineffective or otherwise (4.00 / 1)
sometimes the only way one can keep a sense of integrity is to resist. Vote boycotts are not a strong response, I admit. I practice a form of boycott that is allowed by the Minnesota ballot. We get a blank space for write-in candidates in every race. When a candidate is un-opposed – like an incumbent judge – I write-in “Art Temple” (won’t go into the reasons, right now). Other cases, too. If a race is important, or close – say the last Senate race in MN, for example – then I can vote according to the duopoly dynamic. In 2008 I voted “Art Temple” 38 times on one ballot. No one recognizes the protest – but if a few hundred (1000?) people voted the same way, maybe we’d get some recognition. I was disappointed by the MN recount because my ballot way not one of those displayed on the web!  My vote from Franken was clear, i guess. But imagine if the dude who voted “lizard people” had been prepared for a substantive discussion of the corrupt electoral position, instead of making a simple joke.

I take your comments to heart. The duopoly was designed into the system. Fighting it is like a Cervantes novel at times.


“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
I imagine if the dude who (4.00 / 1)
voted Lizard People had put in something more substantive (Art Temple!), the story would’ve died stillborn. But maybe that’s too cynical of me.

I guess that all makes sense if it’s a method of maintaining a sense of integrity. But this is where I’m coming from: I’m a leftie. I’ve admittedly got what many here would consider a middle-of-the-road sensibility, somewhere in the neighborhood of Chris Bowers and Al Franken, and I live a privileged life, but I’m still a committed leftie. So if people to my left on OL can’t convince me of not only the necessity for but a method of radical reform, I’m just not seeing much real utility in the discussion. I see the utility of the tiny incremental elite-protecting steps toward a more progressive future. They make me insane because they’re so small as to be basically useless–basically, but not entirely–but I see the utility. I just don’t see the utility of a more ‘radical’ approach. I’m willing to be convinced, part of me is eager to be convinced, and it just hasn’t happened.


[ Parent ]  
I guess I'm not so wedded to the "utility" issue (0.00 / 0)
I’m humble enough to accept that I cannot predict which pathway is most efficient, most useful, or the most utilitarian. In reality, however, I did not see much “utility” to the Carter or Clinton administrations – until now the Democratic WHs that I have seen with my own eyes. What positive, social justice-related legacy did they manage to leave behind? Obama gives me little hope that his will be much different, although I’m eager to to be convinced otherwise.

Maybe its two sides of a coin. You seem to need to be convinced to leave the Dems behind, while I’m still waiting for a reason to join up.


“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
Earned Income Tax Credit, (4.00 / 2)
increasing the minimum wage, SCHIP, FMLA.

Obviously, there were big problems in the Clinton years, too. I don’t really think that looking for a positive, social-justice legacy makes much sense; prevention of negative, social-injustice legacy is just as important. Even if I think that the Clinton years were a net negative for progressivism, which is certainly defensible, the question is still: more of a net negative than the Dole administration?

Gore/Lieberman would’ve been a centrist, corporatist, god-awful administration, and I’d be laughed at for defending it in progressive circles, but I think it’s hard to agree that it would’ve have been about a thousand times better for the country than Bush/Cheney.

So that’s my reason for joining up: it’s better than the alternative. I always try to choose the better alternative. Jobs, spouses, purchases, parenting decisions. When given choices, I try to pick the best one available (as far as I can determine, with my limited understanding; I don’t pretend to be able to predict anything perfectly). I do that in politics, too. That’s not reason enough for you?


[ Parent ]  
Apparently not (4.00 / 1)
That’s not reason enough for you?

that’s the rub – NOT joining a M$P is a choice, too.

“Better” is a matter of perspective.

During the cold war, I used to joke: “The US is 100% better than the USSR. We get TWO choices for President.”


“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
The Clinton Administration dramatically increased funding for AIDS (0.00 / 0)
research, prevention, and therapy.  The funding mechanisms that Clinton put in place are keeping several friends of mine alive right now.  Meanwhile, legend has it that neither Reagan nor Bush II ever said the word “gay” in public.  A Dole Administration would not have dedicated resources to an unpopular minority community that was an avowed enemy of its own political base in the way that the Clinton Administration did.  The “small victories” that Democrats typically win nonetheless have very real-world repercussions.  I know at least a dozen people who could never have afforded the drug cocktails on their own, and would be in the ground but for the Clinton Administration.

As deeply flawed as the last round of Health Care legislation was, it will nonetheless keep a lot of mothers and fathers alive who would otherwise have died.  And if there had been 65 Democratic Senators instead of 60, the legislation would have been even better.  The positive results of voting Democratic are never as large as we would like, but they always exist.  This, and the fact that the positive results of voting third party have yet to be compellingly demonstrated, is Chris’ point, I think.


[ Parent ]  
The Lizard People ballot (4.00 / 1)
was an opening. How long it stayed open and to what effect such might be used is another issue. I’m relatively certain I could have spun it into 15 minutes on our local public radio outlet. Time spent talking about how to open up the electoral system, rather than the extra-terrestrial lizard people.


“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
As for "motivation" (0.00 / 0)
That would have to be building a more democratic, open and just political system. If building a political party is more important for some folks, well, that may be why they prefer the concentrated power of the current system. They are motivated by power. I can’t change that.

“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
Fudning a ballot initiative, even in Idaho (0.00 / 0)
would do a trillion times more than just boycotting polls.  

[ Parent ]  
never said "just" (0.00 / 0)
boycott.  

“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
Yes, (4.00 / 1)
But all of the effort seems to go toward ‘screw all of you’ sort of advocacy.  And very little goes into actually doing anything to change the fundamental dynamics.  

the ratio of “All Democrats are rotten bastards and primaries and advocacy directed at them is worthless” to “lets do something to actively change the systemic pressures upon the Democrats” is about 100 to 1.  


[ Parent ]  
I respect those who chose to work within the party structure (4.00 / 5)
They made that choice and they we deal with the consequences. All I ask is the same respect for choosing not to follow them.

If the only way to apply pressure were the primary, then I might agree that such is next to worthless. But party primaries work best when joined by advocacy from outside of the party structure. Not necessarily coordinated (although they could be), but all pushing toward a common goal.  

“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
one supports electoral reform (0.00 / 0)
e.g. fusion voting, proportional representation, etc.
i agree with you though that the problem is not a particular party but the party system’s inability to reflect the interests, let alone act in the well being, of the majority of its citizens.

[ Parent ]  
The party system, in the end, (4.00 / 2)
isn’t the problem.  Its institutional capture.  All the screaming at the sellout progressive caucus will just become screaming at the sellout green party that would vote to support some moderate reform rather than holding out for something stronger.  

There is almost no evidence that having a third party would do anything to help with corruption.  Only removing the bad pols from office will do that.  Electoral reform is critical, as is ballot choice.  But third parties are no panacea.  They won’t even be close to one.  


[ Parent ]  
Its about more choices (0.00 / 0)
More party options. Not just “third” parties. More options means more chance for participation. My target is not “likely voters” – I want to open the system up so the “unlikely voters” feel as though participation is a better option than non-participation.


“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
And don't primaries offer a lot of that chance? (0.00 / 0)
Yet, primaries have a much, much lower turnout than general elections.  

[ Parent ]  
A chance within the party (0.00 / 0)
but, yes, a chance. The caucus system offers a means to bring a group of new people into the party (from the state level down) if they are organized and large enough to threaten/challenge the entrenched power-brokers.

But why only TWO party primaries? Why not promote more chances with more parties? Why not try and create actual choice in the General Election, too?

These are not mutually exclusive ends. Even if the system were opened to make alternative parties more viable – the Democratic and Republican parties would still be the big dogs in the pack. Building the Democratic Party is not necessarily in opposition to working to expand the party system. To see it as such is a choice.

“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
Low primary turnout is an opportunity, not a problem (4.00 / 5)
But you have to take advantage of it by mobilizing your own support, and by and large progressives haven’t.

I have mixed feelings about what Bowers is saying and doing, but one thing he convinced me of is that either there aren’t enough progressives, or else the ones there are aren’t active enough. He’s basically been saying “put up or shut up” to the ones who are talking about taking over the party. The ball’s in our court.

And much more so, the ones who talk about starting a third party, which is a much, much  tougher job.  


[ Parent ]  
This, in fact, is my exact point (4.00 / 2)
phrased more succinctly and accurately than I could have done.  

If we can’t get someone we like to win a House primary then, how the hell are we going to accomplishing the much, much taller order of creating a national third party that is viable on the Presidential level in the next decade?


[ Parent ]  
Also, (0.00 / 0)
what evidence do you have that more ballot choices increases turnout and engagement?  That seems to be a strange argument.  

[ Parent ]  
I'd site Minnesota (4.00 / 1)
Can’t say that the relatively supportive environment for alternative parties and candidates is directly responsible for our routinely high turn-out, but they do correlate at least.

Otherwise, its just logic. Two parties offers a narrower political spectrum of choice than more parties. A larger political spectrum provides more opportunity for those that are not currently engaged with the system to participate.

That assumes, of course, that the new parties would expand the spectrum, rather than trying to be “centrist”. That’s why a “third” party is not enough. More parties means that each citizen stands a greater chance of finding a party that fits their agenda. Ideally, I’d like to see voter turn-out of close to 90% – without making it mandatory, or forced. If that many citizens were willing to engage their political system of their own free will and with the faith that it will have a positive effect in their lives and their communities, we’d have a better country, IMHO.

Opening more doors seems like a good way to start in that direction.

“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
Minnesota's primary system is good (0.00 / 0)
The party organization can’t anoint a candidate, and that’s where most systems are disastrous. Ellison and Wellstone both came up through the grass roots.

On the other hand, Minessota’s third “Independent Party” does as much harm as good. Since Ventura has gone they’ve done nothing much but spread confusion.

Also, Collin Peterson is in pretty good shape.  


[ Parent ]  
I'd say that the "harm" from the Independent Party (0.00 / 0)
is more about trying to be viable in an environment that is hostile to alternatives than their own problems. But, you are correct, the Independents (that party REALLY needs another name!) are not well organized.

Regardless, the effect of the alternative on the campaigns is overall positive. Some might say that Dean Barkley “spoiled” the Franken/Coleman race, but I listened to every debate and Barkley was able to keep those two on topic, rather than it devolving into a partisan trash-talk fest.  It ain’t much, but its what we got.

Primaries and caucuses are good things. But I’d like the choice to extend into the General election, too.


“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
i agree about institutional capture (4.00 / 1)
but the question is whether the party system aids that or not.  So then the question is – how does the party system have to be changed and how do electoral mechanisms have to be changed to make the elected representatives more accountable to ordinary people (And for me the disempowered) rather than to the powers that be and the tools that are used (e.g. corporations, racism, sexism, media hegemony, market fundamentalism, etc.).

In addition to institutional capture is also informed by instgitutional paralysis (.e. if you combine all the ‘checks and balances’ that everyone loves in theory, ultimately, you end up with a fairly ineffectual government and then you get informal ways around that are totally undemocratic like signing statements, supreme court decisions that grossly mangle literal readings of particular phrases, etc.).

The best way to increase turnout and participation is probably by having people see that the Government actually works for them, rather than the current state of affairs. What I was suggesting was to address just a small part of a bigger problem, rather than ignoring it completely and pretending that in 30 years things another Southern Strategy won’t be found or that the construction of the Senate is anti democratic or that retaining Supreme Court Justices for their lifetimes makes the institution inherently backwards looking in terms of how its informed by public sentiment.  


[ Parent ]  
Exactly. (4.00 / 2)
I contend that because MN has a system that supports alternative parties (not perfect, but better than the other states I have called home) we have an electoral system that “works for us”. Note, I said “electoral” system, not government. The alternatives are still too hamstrung by the system to have influenced government. Ventura aside.

Almost every one of our state-wide races has 3 main candidates. That is, they all participate in public debates and such during the campaign. This dynamic, the simple presence of a third alternative, improves the tenor of the debate. Gone are the lame appeals of, “vote for me because I’m not a member of the other party”. This from an alternative candidate that (unless they are Jesse Ventura) will be lucky to get 15% of the vote in the GE. Imagine what might be possible with a VIABLE alternative party!

What is the result? Routinely among the highest voter turn out in the nation, even on special elections and “off-year” campaigns. A conservative GOP governor (and Senator before him) that could not gain traction on the national scene because they have been too pragmatic (in the eyes of their peers). Senator Al Franken. Rep. Keith Ellison. And Collin Peterson on the ropes. Not perfect – there’s Michelle Bachmann, but she is rapidly becoming a laughing stock. Plus, a good environment and everything else that comes from citizens being encouraged to engage in their communities and government.



“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
Burn out on the left is not unusual. (4.00 / 4)
Anyone who has spent time and effort to little effect, knows this. And the opposite drift is occurring now I think in greater numbers: disillusionment with the two corporatist parties, with the execrable Congress, with the duplicitous mass media, and even with the betrayal by the so-called progressive blogosphere has many, many more people rejecting the institutions that exist and trying to understand how to construct new ones that have long-term effect and maximize political leverage. In less demanding times, all is forgivable, and there is little difference in the end. I do not think these are “normal” times; I think we, our government, our political and economic system are in crisis; I do not think the problems are being addressed. If so, Bowers’ “solution” is not a solution at all; it is really counterproductive because with the accelerating crisis those in serious need will be rejecting false answers and those peddling false nostrums. If not, I don’t think Bowers’ solution is particularly helpful, but then it is not actively harmful. Better, do the right things, regardless of the situation for now…we may be in crisis, but clearly we are not at a critical point. Do the right things, support the right answers, do not succumb to the blandishments of short term victories that are not victories at all but simply give the impression (as Bowers has gotten) that you are achieving “something”. I don’t see it.

 
I agree–and we're about to see another round re: climate crisis (4.00 / 4)
We can see the desperation of Senators Kerry, Lieberman, and Reid to pass something–anything–that has a title pretending to address the climate change crisis, even as the most respected scientific experts on the matter indicate that the proposed legislation will actually do far too little to even make a tangible difference.  But, if the Very Serious People in Charge pass legislation, with such a title, they must have achieved “something,” right?  

Perhaps not.  Perhaps the “victories” merely enable the Democratic Party to claim to their donor base that “we solved it,” and “been there, done that” when someone brings up the need for more aggressive legislation in the future.  Meanwhile, health care premiums go up another 20% per annum, the “financial reform” legislation gets watered down to nothing, and the scientifically unacceptable level of 450ppm gets locked in, all because incumbents needed to claim “victory.”

I’m a lifelong Democrat, and cut my teeth politically during the Reagan years, and I will probably grit my teeth and vote Democratic again in 2010 and 2012.  But, I’m not going to engage in the pretense that the mere passage of legislation with a title–coupled with claims of progress from incumbents seeking to preserve their seats–equates to actual progress that achieved something significant.


[ Parent ]  
I agree very much. (0.00 / 0)
Gritting one’s teeth and voting is something inevitable under this system and that holds whether you vote for a candidate you don’t really like but you accept to prevent worse, or you vote for someone better who you know has little chance of being elected. The political system in this country allows dissent and protest (within well-defined limits of course) but is incredibly effective at marginalizing it and neutering it. Again, in non-crisis times this flies under the radar; at times like these where there is an enormous sense of the system’s utter dysfunction in the face of difficult critical problems obstructing our future, the discontent, the anger, the needs, the frustrations will find a way to express themselves and it will NOT take the form of a campaign to slightly modify, slightly improve, in arcane and indiscernible, ultimately meaningless,  ways the legislation that our elites allow.  

[ Parent ]  
What form will it take, then? (0.00 / 0)
Because it seems to me that we’re choosing between a campaign to slightly modify, slightly improve, in arcane and indiscernible ways, the legislation that our elites allow, and a campaign to talk about how we’d like to radically modify, radically improve, in obvious and striking ways, the legislation that our country really needs.

I’m not really seeing a third option.  


[ Parent ]  
me neither. (4.00 / 1)
I think if we see the problems as radical problems, which will not be solved by the strait-jacket solutions our leaders allow in the discourse, it is our role nevertheless to  talk about the changes we need and how to achieve them. If the problems are radical, one can “stop being a radical” yes, but I don’t think one can really make progress on solutions. Being a radical is not something one should adopt because it’s somehow cool to be outside the system; it’s something one adopts because the problems demand it.

[ Parent ]  
Alternative option: "Fuck the elites!" (4.00 / 2)
the legislation that our elites allow,

Who are they to tell me what is allowed? Like when “the elites” took single payer and/or medicare for all off the table before they even began debating reform of the health care system. Try to justify that without reference to supporting the mainstream political parties. It ONLY makes sense when filtered through partisanship.

But, of course, “Fuck the elites!” is no way to win a Democratic primary….

“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
Actually 'fuck the elites!' seems (0.00 / 0)
a better way of winning a Republican primary, oddly enough. As long as you define ‘elites’ in a certain way.

[ Parent ]  
yeah, but republicans are liars (0.00 / 0)
and therefore I do not look to them to define my words.


“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
The outcome of the Obama years (4.00 / 2)
should settle this debate — to the extent that a debate such as this can be settled.

Will Obama’s reforms — health care, energy, education, finance —  improve the country? Will he get solve the unemployment crisis? Will he build the party and create more room for progressivism?  


[ Parent ]  
i agree but i think it can be reframed slightly to: (4.00 / 4)
Will he have done everything that he can do for ordinary people and the disempowered (everywhere not just in the u.s.)?

Will he have done something about the reasons why he wasn’t able to do something where he wasn’t.

So 1) results 2) changing the political climate and circumstances.

Right now I’d give him an F on both, with the understanding that McCain or Palin or Lieberman would have necessitated the creation of grades lower than F.  


[ Parent ]  
Well said, Laszlo (4.00 / 3)
Picking up on what you said, it’s amazing and telling that Bowers thinks that it’s somehow radical to reject-drift away from-question a party that, along with its counterpart, is in bed with Wall Street, and that supports not just war but war crimes.

Who better wears the title radical? The person who countenances a party that supports a never-ending, un-winnable, largely secret war, or the person who doesn’t?


[ Parent ]  
I appreciate you openly (4.00 / 10)
discussing your evolution. It certainly hasn’t gone unnoticed by me and others — which is why almost no one comments in your diaries any more, as opposed to those of Rosenberg, who’s clearly become OL’s most popular blogger. Not even close. That doesn’t mean you’re wrong (though I think you are) and Rosenberg’s right, but it does mean you’re increasingly out of step with a sizable and growing chunk of progressives, who are watching the country continue to fall apart under Democratic leadership.



 
Oh, and would someone please explain this (4.00 / 7)
puzzling paragraph to me:

The anti-globalization movement promptly, and at the time I thought rather cynically (I had participated in previous anti-globalization protests), transformed itself into an anti-war movement less than three weeks after September 11th. This undercut the notion that protesters were an actual populist movement, and not just protesting for the sake of it.

A populist movement shouldn’t be antiwar? How could it not be?


[ Parent ]  
To me it is not "transformation" (4.00 / 2)
Anti-war and anti-globalization are aspects of a social justice agenda. Two heads of the same hydra, perhaps.  

“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
Sorry, David. I pointed out the same thing down the thread, (4.00 / 2)
but should have read your post first. It is only puzzling because it was written by someone who started a blog called “open left.” Its presuppositions and ideology are all too familiar, I’m afraid.

[ Parent ]  
Not Exactly, David (4.00 / 8)
If you look at the traffic, there’s clearly more people reading Chris & other weekday diarists here.  I think I get proportionately more readers to comment, but that’s not the same as having more readers.

I think that disaffection shows up disproportionately at different levels in different ways, and that you’re being too sweeping here.  A lot of the dissatisfaction right now is still largely passive–unfortunately, I would add.

Mike has always been a lot more of a party activist than I ever thought of being.  But he’s never been willfully blind that I can tell, and neither has Chris.  It’s willful blindness that I’m at war with, not honest differences of approach. The important message that Chris has here is that effectiveness matters, and being able to work with folks with different perspectives is part of what it takes to be effective.

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
It is precisely the question of effectiveness (4.00 / 1)
that this whole discussion concerns. Putting a name to it, does NOT address which avenue of political activity is “effective” and to which ends. I do not question Bowers’ sincerity; I question his effectiveness in producing progressive change. If you think he is “effective” at it, you should make that case.

[ Parent ]  
That's humble of you (4.00 / 4)
I’m sure Bowers gets more readers around the blogosphere, because prObama bloggers like Yglesias link to him. But among the OL hardcore, you’re clearly the fave (and not because of your graphs) — deal with it.

Of course if you two were blogging at Daily Kos, he would go to the rec list, and you would often be troll rated (Herbert Hoover bad!). but you’re not, you’re blogging at this little taco stand Bowers and Lux built.  


[ Parent ]  
Ok, but the tone of the diary seems to be "I matured, (4.00 / 4)
and now I’m no longer one of those DFHs that can’t accomplish anything.  And now I’m getting things accomplished, while you radical fringe DFHs just protest and gripe.”

Maybe that’s not the intent of the diary; but, the apparent smugness doesn’t win friends and influence people.  


[ Parent ]  
Yeah (0.00 / 0)
While I praised him for “openly” discussing his evolution, the truth is, we don’t learn much about his evolution, which likely included doubt, self-questioning, etc. This piece is, by contrast, self-justifying.  

[ Parent ]  
The piece is indeed a justification, and it is fundamentally (4.00 / 1)
conservative. I say this about the argument, and not about Chris. He did help start this blog, after all, and I think everyone on this blog has a general agreement about policy. But Chris is using an extremely localized example, the Green Party during Bush, to make claims for a “theory” of change, or how change can occur. The connection is extremely tenuous, and so we must judge the conclusion as self-justifying.

To say that change can only happen in line with the dominant institutions of the present day is conservative. It isn’t “left,” that’s for sure. It’s Edmund Burke.  


[ Parent ]  
To you, maybe (4.00 / 6)
Rosenberg is the most popular blogger.  I read this blog for Chris.  

[ Parent ]  
I like 'em all, even when I (4.00 / 1)
disagree, which apparently isn’t the consensus view.

[ Parent ]  
Yup (0.00 / 0)
Me too.

Tim Wolfe

[ Parent ]  
I read both Bowers and Rosenberg religiously! (4.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]  
I read (4.00 / 4)
open left because of bowers whose diaries — whether right or wrong — are the epitome of reality-based methodology.  He doesn’t start from ideology and find the facts. He starts with the facts and then tries to figure out what to do.  One of the more informative writers on the nets I think.

I rarely comment on his diaries.

Rosenberg, though incredibly intelligent, usually does the opposite.  I feel the need to comment sometime because of this.


[ Parent ]  
That's crap (4.00 / 4)
Both are more or less equally ideological and more or less equally realistic. Chris is more focused on immediate-term goals and Paul (and I) are still trying to figure out some way to redefine and expand the dialogue in a long term way making more favorable outcomes possible. It’s definitely a long shot proposition.

When someone talks the way you do I know right away that they’re a centrist immediate-term ideologue.

Each democratic President since LBJ has partially ratified and partially rolled back the transformations of America of the Republican President preceding him. The net outcome over 42 years has been a large movement to teh right. Paul (and I) have been trying out how to figure out how to change the direction of movement rather than realistically accepting the Republican triumph and working within it.

I have no objection to what Chris is doing because in the immediate term it’s all you can do. But I’d still like to change the direction of movement.

Usually when I have this argument I find that the person I’m talking to either a.) has no idea what’s been lost since 1968 or b.) is happy with the direction of movement during that period. Or c.), both of the above.  


[ Parent ]  
I don't have much (4.00 / 3)
objection to what Chris is doing (although I don’t agree it’s all you can do in the immediate term.)

I do object to his depiction and dismissal of people who are doing things differently.  


[ Parent ]  
I might add (4.00 / 10)
Reagan and George W Bush transformed America, unfortunately. And they didn’t do it by being reality-based, settling for immediate small successes, and practicing the art of the possible. They did it by projecting a powerful vision and by making tranformational (but not necessarily popular) initiatives in the exercise of power.

Don’t fool yourself that Bush was a failure. He got what he was trying to get. Just because we hate his success doesn’t mean that he wasn’t successful. (As far as that goes, for awhile people were saying that he damaged the Republican Party, but I’m not even sure that that was true because the reality-based Democrats have so far failed to capitalize. 60 votes in the Senate led to nothing much, and as of right now it’s expected that they’ll lose most of that.)

The vision Obama projected was weak: an end to discord, mostly. And “change”. Bipartisanship, a weak vision at best,  didn’t work, and he doesn’t seem to have a backup.  


[ Parent ]  
First (0.00 / 0)
you say — in an earlier comment — they are equally reality-based and then you say that change doesn’t come for reality-based methodologies.  On the verge of something like saying whatever you have to in order to make a criticism go away.  Or coming up with reasons for what you want to believe to be true, exactly what I am criticizing.

Also, I find Rosenberg very unconvincing because he regularly says things that seem easily refuted by the facts in the service of presenting a pretty theory.  Things like Obama is horribly incompetent or a conservative.  I do no think this is the best way to create a vision that will promote change in the party, but he is welcome to it.  It’s just not reality-based.


[ Parent ]  
Reality based people (4.00 / 2)
argue the facts. They don’t just make proclamations that others are not fact based, based on nothing more than conclusions. Challenging Rosenberg or anyone else on the facts is healthy and productive.  This is not.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.

[ Parent ]  
Responsible, what your saying is very weak (4.00 / 6)
As far as Obama being horribly incompetent, his bargaining with Olympia Snowe and Chuck Grassley on health healthcare was an utter disaster, gaining him nothing and losing him most of his momentum, and there were a lot of people who knew better than he did.

As far as his being conservative, he has been working with the Pete Peterson anti-Social-Security commission. I call that conservative. Attacking entitlements is something that every conservative is enthusiastic about.  Obama so far has taken something very close to the Bush-Cheney hard line on civil liberties, citizens’ right to know, executive powers, and even torture. His bailout bill was bungled in favor of big business (rescuing the people who caused the problem without saving the economy) and even on the oil spill he seems to be far too helpful to BP at the expense of everyone else.

We can still argue about whether Obama is incompetent and / or conservative, but it’s not something easily refuted by the facts. (Of course, he’s less conservative than Demint.)

As far as the inconsistency in what I said about Rosenberg v. Bowers v. the Republican Party: basically I think that the whole “reality-based” meme is delusionary, and the Democrats smugness about being reality-based has a lot to do with their weakness — why, for example, 40 Republicans can whip 60 Democrats in the Senate. The anti-reality based republicans are right. There’s a big difference between figuring out what might be and making it happen, and figuring out what already is and accepting it. (Ever heard this one: “I dream things that never were and say why not?” That’s from when the Democrats weren’t dedicated to losing.)

As for you, for all your huffing and puffing about facts,in your two posts you didn’t mention a single one —  you just used the word “facts” and repeated the “reality-based” slogan a few times. You really brought nothing to the table.  


[ Parent ]  
You Can't Repeat All The Arguments All The Time (4.00 / 4)
or else you end up never making new ones.

Here in the US, we’re so accustomed to equating “conservative” with “reactionary” that it may sound bizarre to call Obama a conservative.  But if you go back to the actual meaning of terms, things fall into place fairly easily.

I have presented arguments about Obama’s functional conservatism: most basically, about how the Third Way serves to complement and consolidate the “intelligent” conservative project of repurposing the American welfare state for conservative goals, in a rough parallel to Bismark’s creation of the European conservative welfare state model in the 1880s.  This is the larger conceptual backdrop behind the Pete Peterson collaboration that John rightly refers to above, and it explains his monstrosity of corporate-friendly “health care reform” as well.

But of course, there are other lines of argument one could advance as well: his record on civil liberties and the “war on terror”, for example.  Or his rigid ideological embrace of the classic Burkean horror of disruptive change.  One could also cite his contemptuous attitude toward progressives that he has expressed on numerous occasions.

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
Speaking of, (4.00 / 1)
there’s definitely change afoot. I just went over to Daily Kos, where there’s a rec-listed diary about Feingold’s opposition to the finance reform bill. I expected it to be a bash-“Republican Russ” thread but the comments are mostly favorable.  

[ Parent ]  
Evolution? (0.00 / 0)
Not likely!

http://www.correntewire.com/pr…

Bowers just goes with the wind and which side his bread is buttered on.

Kind of like the MSM has done for the past 15 years.

Sad.


[ Parent ]  
Way Ahead Of You??? (4.00 / 5)
I quit the Greens here in California when they switched from being a grassroots movement to becoming a political party, somewhere around 1991 or so.  I did vote for Nader after that, but (a) Nader repeatedly refused to identify as a Green Party member and (b) California was never in play, so it was a costless indication of leftwing displeasure with DLC centrism.

I might not have left the Greens in another state, since I still think that third parties have a viable record of producing change at the state level–as John Emerson has discussed in some of his historical diaries. And I definitely would have stayed involved with the New Party, had the Supreme Court not cut off their national fusion strategy.

I was also involved in anti-globalization activism (all the way back to anti-fast-track anti-NAFTA activism in 1989), and by 2000-2001 was working as a full-time volunteer for the LA Indymedia Center, fruitlessly trying to get the larger mass of sit-around-and-talk types to relax their ideological purity in order to rapidly grow the size of our online community.  But they were more interested in snobbery than effectiveness.  So eventually, I left.

BTW, the most forceful advocate against supporting Nader who showed up in that orbit–at the 2000 DNC “Shadow Convention” convened by Arianna Huffington–was a lifelong Marxist community organizer, Eric Mann, founder the Labor-Community Strategy Center.  So it wasn’t just a “center-left” critique.

All of which is to say that many of the same political experiences have not made me the least bit less radical.  It’s ends, not means that define what folks are about, IMHO. But, then, even if I’ve never been all that comfortable working inside party structures (though I have from time to time), I’ve always worked well with those who do, and I’ve never had an either/or attitude.



“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


 
Unlike Bowers (4.00 / 2)
you’re supportive of dissent from the left.

It’s weird to hinge a critique of third party politics on Nader and the Greens in 2000, since Nader did little to build the party.

I could, after all, cite the various incarnations of the Democratic Party over the last forty years to explain why two-party politics doesn’t work, but that’s not a serious argument.  


[ Parent ]  
No Magic Bullets, I'm Afraid (4.00 / 4)
As long as America remains an empire, we’ve really got our work cut out for us, I’m afraid.

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]  
The Failure of Third Parties (4.00 / 2)
You lost the game; if you want to win, change the rules.

The Green party lost 80% of its members because, rightly or wrongly, because it was branded as a spoiler.

Threaten to be a spoiler, and you can force some changes out of the big boys. But actually become a spoiler, and the electorate realizes that supporting you is a liability. POOF, you’re gone.

That means there are two options for a third-party can proceed. The first is “try not to win”; that’s depressing.

The second is reform the electoral system to completely eliminate spoilers.

The Green party has been pushing IRV, but IRV does not eliminate spoilers!

Let me repeat that: IRV does not eliminate spoilers.

There is however a very simple, and very easy to implement method that does completely eliminate spoilers in three candidate elections: Approval Voting.

Please, you owe it to yourself to look into approval voting (or score voting, which is even better, but slightly more complicated).

http://rangevoting.org
http://leastevil.blogspot.com


 
Coalition governments allow third parties to work (0.00 / 0)
But that still gives some power to the Democrats if we had it. If, ay, we elected 50 Greens to Congress with 190 Democrats and 192 Republicans, Greens would have to cede to Democrats with a promise of committee chairs and some attempts at Green’s agenda. That still means Democratic Speaker, and that still means we would need Democratic (probably Blue Dog) votes.  If not, Republicans would have power over the agenda with just 192 Seats.

Unless we could elect 218 Greens, at which point it stops being a third party.  


[ Parent ]  
Only voting reform (4.00 / 3)
could get us third party blocs in Congress, and that would be awesome… and I think, in a culture that likes to have options, approval voting is very achievable. (Not to mention there would probably soon be many more parties represented in office.)

But politics will always involve coalitions and compromises.  I don’t know how you conceive of politics if you are disappointed that 50 seats, or about 1/7th, is not a majority.

Tim Wolfe


[ Parent ]  
Thanks (0.00 / 0)
An awesome point.  Living in VT, with an active 3rd party on the left, I’ve had occasion to look pretty hard at voting methods.  IRV has even been tried in Burlington and is still much discussed statewide.

But like you, I’ve become a strong supporter of approval voting for the best combination of fairness and practicality.  The voter’s power is no longer constrained to “one person, one vote” — it’s “one candidate, one vote.”  

Because shouldn’t we get to give the thumbs up or down to every candidate running?

Tim Wolfe


[ Parent ]  
harm reduction (4.00 / 2)
this may be a minor point, but:

Public policy under total Republican control of all three branches of government proved to be far more extreme and right-wing than even a mix of Republican and DLC control.  This undercut the notion that change could not happen through the Democratic party, even through the right-wing of that party.

That second sentence doesn’t follow from the first. Unless by change you mean any kind of change. Bad change was always possible, even if some of us didn’t anticipate how quickly and thoroughly it could happen. Whether or not substantial good changes could happen through the Democratic party is another question entirely. (Some of your later points do go to the case that they could.)

I think that the notion it did undercut is that there’s “not a dime’s worth of difference”. Not because Democrats were really better, but because Republicans were worse. And so, our first priority had to be to block the fascists, no matter how bogus the alternative.

I think that’s a real point. I also know that it’s an arguable one. Gore against the war from outside of elective politics is one thing; what President Gore would have done is another (and pure speculation, our favorite thing). Etc.

not everything worth doing is profitable. not everything profitable is worth doing.


 
And perhaps it goes without saying (4.00 / 1)
that Bush did as much damage as he did largely because the sorry-ass Democrats allowed him to. So I’m not sure the horror of 2000-2008 is really a good argument in favor of the Democratic party.  

[ Parent ]  
That's like saying that the Democrats (0.00 / 0)
are doing as much damage as we are largely because the sorry-ass Greens allowed us to.

On one level, yes. Absolutely. I mean, it’s true that if the Greens transformed themselves into a real political force that insisted upon better outcomes, the Democrats wouldn’t be so shitty. And if the Democrats transformed themselves into a real progressive force that insisted upon better outcomes, Bush would’ve have been so shitty. But I’m not really sure what conclusion to draw.  


[ Parent ]  
My point was more mundane (0.00 / 0)
Some Dems voted for Bush’s tax cuts and the war in Iraq and the Patriot Act, etc.  

[ Parent ]  
Ah. I thought by 'the sorry-ass Democrats' (4.00 / 4)
you meant the party as a whole, not ‘some sorry-ass Democrats.’

But I guess that’s the big question: how does one support the non-sorry-ass Democrats while rejecting the sorry-ass ones, without empowering all the sorry-ass Republicans?

If only I had a non-sorry-ass answer!


[ Parent ]  
Well, this <i>response</i> at least is awesome (4.00 / 2)
….But I guess I would suggest, by supporting the individual non-sorry-ass Democrats, and opposing all sorry-asses of any party?  

And isn’t that — via selective ActBlue links, volunteering, direct action, and media attention — what OpenLeft is all about?

Tim Wolfe


[ Parent ]  
Huh. (4.00 / 1)
HTML tags work in the subject line on comment previews, but not once the comment is published.  Who knew?

Tim Wolfe

[ Parent ]  
your theory on Greens 2000 has never worked (4.00 / 7)
At the presidential level, the result is binary, so throwing support to a third party can never make sense. The entire branch of government is decided by one race out of one race.

At the senate level, each race is 1/100. Or more accurately, any given race in a given cycle is around 1/33 of that year’s outcome. Here, it can make sense to throw a race. For example, due to losses being the only practical way to change leadership, a very strong argument can be made that it is in the overall best interests of Democrats to throw 1 of 100 seats and ensure Harry Reid loses so as to get more effective control of the entire body. This is similar thinking to what the unions have concluded about AR-Sen, that it makes sense for Democrats to lose this 1/100th of the senate to make an example out of Lincoln.

At the house level, we’re talking about 1/435. Here, the odds suggest it is almost never the case where you wouldn’t want to make an example of a crappy Dem.

On twitter: @BobBrigham


 
Good catch (4.00 / 1)
An analysis of strategy which involves throwing 1/1 = 100% of a branch of government under the bus is in no way transportable to another branch of government, where one could throw a portion under the bus of as little as 1/435.

There’s probably another tacit assumption, though, of Chris’ blog which you didn’t remark on. And that is the assumption that coherence of a dissident voting bloc must always dissipate (unless, perhaps, it meets with striking success, quickly). Even if a Green Party voting bloc did dissipate around 2000, that is not the only example in history that we can use to draw inferences from.

So, why make such an assumption?

An interesting question is thus: What would be the outcome of a dissident voting bloc of Democrats that targets, say, 5-10 Congress critters, and ‘swears an oath’ not to dissipate between elections, nor to abandon their principles. Yes, even if all of it’s 5-10 candidates lost during the first 1 to 5 election cycles. Is this really impossible, or must any such voting bloc fold like the so-called “progressive bloc” in Congress did, during the healthcare folly debate?

(No voting bloc worthy of the name will dissipate between elections, IMO, even if they go into temporary hibernation.)

If we still had slavery in this country, I don’t think that anybody would be foolish enough to say that joining an anti-slavery voting bloc, which would indeed throw Democrats who support slavery under the bus, is not worth supporting through multiple election cycles. Yes, even if slavery was not immediately abolished, after each of these same election cycles.

If people abort this sort of thought process because of fear of the big bad Republicans, then I’m afraid that their fear-constrained behavior and cogitation will not have much better results than re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic. I remain unimpressed by the progress of the progressives, and would instead call for fresh ideas.

In light of the way things are going, as evidenced by Citizens United vs. FEC, settling for such slim pickings might one day take the form of settling for a poll tax which only excludes 25% of the population, instead of 75%.



435 Dem Primaries 2012
Coffee Party Usa
TheRealNews.Com


[ Parent ]  
51 races, not 1 (4.00 / 1)
There are actually 51 races for President, one in each of the 50 states and one in the District of Columbia.  In most year, few of the 51 races are competitive.  Voting for a third party in a non-competitive race sends a message that the Democratic Party is losing votes from the left when it targets its appeal entirely to the center or worse the center right.

In all the years I have voted in a Presidential election and in all the states I have lived I have never cast a meaningful ballot in either a primary or a general election.  (NJ, 1972; IL primary/MA general, 1976; FL, 1980; FL, 1984; NY, 1988; NY, 1992; NY, 1996; NJ, 2000; NJ, 2004; NJ, 2008.) I suspect that is true for most of the people in the United States.

Some of the House votes I cast were in competitive elections but most were not.  

There are very simple fixes to this problem but they are routinely opposed and never seriously considered.


[ Parent ]  
Wasted Votes (4.00 / 2)
In our system, the vast majority of votes are “wasted” in that they are not used to elect governing elected officials.  This is a direct consequence of our electoral system.

In the California Assembly, for example, leaving aside third parties (which are now out of the general election, thanks to our latest “reform initiative”), it takes only 50%+1 votes in any district to elect an Assemblymember.  So just under 50% of the votes are either cast for losing candidates or are excess votes for winning candidates.  A majority of the Assembly is elected by barely more than 1/4 of the votes in the state: 50%+1 votes in 41 of 80 districts.  Worse yet, however, a 1/3 minority of the Assembly can cripple the majority on budget matters–meaning that just over 1/6 of the votes have vetor power over the vast majority.  In California, 5/6 of the votes are effectively wasted.

Talk about dysfunctional!

Proportional representation is not some exotic idea.  It’s the only way to actually have majority rule of citizens enacted through legislative bodies–though of course one also needs majority rule explicitly for the bodies themselves.  

p.s.  I wrote an op-ed about this for the Christian Science Monitor on the eve of the 1994 elections.

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
And this (4.00 / 1)
is why I find myself reading OL more and more. Good stuff Chris.  

John McCain: Beacuse lobbyists should have more power

 
There are two lefts (4.00 / 3)
The “progressive” left, which is willing to work through the system to achieve change, and the “protesting” left, which believes that merely having the correct analysis is enough to achieve change.

The latter left, which I too was a part of from about 1999 to 2001 (I spent every weekend in the fall of 2000 campaigning for Ralph Nader in Berkeley and Oakland), fails because it has no ability to actually produce change. It rejects its own heritage of organizing and persuading people, and as a result finds itself wandering in circles because they have the correct analysis (and they do indeed have that) but are totally unable to do anything with it.

Our left – the people who call ourselves “progressives” – are much more interested in actually getting things done. That doesn’t mean we shrink from having the correct analysis, or compromise our values. Instead we’re not satisfied to merely be correct. We have to be both correct AND effective.

In my experience, the “protesting” left does not want to do the hard work of organizing. It’s very unfortunate that’s the case, because we need them to do that work. But as long as they’re unwilling to try and seek a genuine theory of change and find ways to mobilize people to action, they will never get anywhere and their potential will be lost.


 
Well (4.00 / 1)
I like to think that belong to what Michael Harrington called “the left-wing of the possible.”

But there’s a balance to be struck.

And for a while I though the progressive netroots (the big blogs) were striking a pretty good balance, and I felt comfortable among the “pragmatic radicals.” But post-Obama I find myself increasingly disillusioned with this “movement,” as the radicalism fades in favor of pragmatism, as more and more netroots progressives accept the unacceptable and champion the dubious.  


[ Parent ]  
The Problem Is, It's Not Very Pragmatic (4.00 / 5)
Passing laws that don’t solve the actual problems, but make things worse instead does not fit my definition of “pragmatism”.  Proposed climate legislation would clearly fit into this category, as did the stimulus. Health care & financial reform clearly did some good things, but left the main problems unaddressed.

I just don’t see how half-assed governance is supposed to be a good thing.

It would be quite different if Obama were a fighter, and he weren’t afraid to say, “This is just a start, there’s a whole lot more that still needs to be done.”  If he talked like that, then at least I could believe he was somewhat honest (and, of course, committed to continuing the fight).  As it is, without even a minimal level of trust, WTF have you got?

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
Pragmatism is necessary (4.00 / 2)
But so too is radicalism. Ideally we build a pragmatic radicalism. I think Harrington is a good example of this. And in fact, the left has a long history of doing the kind of organizing work that needs to be done.

Unfortunately, the “other” left I described has moved beyond this organizing heritage. They don’t really do much organizing work, and that which they do doesn’t have a viable theory of change.

That doesn’t mean the more “pragmatic” progressive movement has a viable theory of change either. I’m not sure I agree with Chris that some of the bills we’re looking at like financial regulation, have a great theory of change either.

I would really like to see these two lefts come together. The “other” left has the correct analysis but no real theory of change or desire to organize and persuade. Our “progressive” left has a better theory of change and is much more willing to organize and persuade, but our analysis isn’t as strong – too many of us expect Obama to do the right thing, when it should now be clear he absolutely will not do it.


[ Parent ]  
aren't you the slightest bit embarrassed using (4.00 / 2)
such a self-serving and self-promoting dichotomy? I am sure such smugness serves you well in the very important hard work that you are doing while the people in that “other” left, (not to be confused with “your serious, correct and effective” left (they are as you put it, not so interested in actually getting things done) are unwilling to even try and unwilling to seek a genuine theory of change, I do not know if we share any common values; judging from your comment I seriously doubt it. When you get a break from all your hard work, do let us all know the great changes you have effected so the rest of us can continue to applaud.

[ Parent ]  
This is precisely the kind of language (4.00 / 1)
that Obama admirers use to describe critics: they don’t organize, don’t work hard, don’t care about getting results.  

[ Parent ]  
Yes, But (4.00 / 3)
Just because one person offers an argument in bad faith doesn’t mean that the argument is always offered in bad faith.

I go back to 1988 as a classic example of this.  That year, a broad coalition of progressives in LA created a two-pronged strategy to try to unify the left as much as possible.  On the one hand, there was a massive march for the protest-oriented.  It was a very good march, but so long ago that I’ve got no memory of how many turned out.  I’m sure it must have been at least 15,000 and probably a good deal more.

The other part was electoral work.  Not for candidates, but for and against a slew of important propositions.  (Candidates could piggy-back, and I did a lot to help Jesse Jackson in that regard.)  We put together a massive precinct organization, targeting occasional progressive voters.  It was an ideal strategy, aimed at precisely the sort of people that the DLC types ignore.

It was very successful, overall, but it only had about 1,000 people participating–far less than 10% of those who marheced, and possibly less than 5%.  Had even just half of the “protest only” crowd been willing to engage in both forms of activism, the impact would have blown the lid off of LA County politics.

This is the sort of thing that I think of when I hear what Robert is saying.  And it has nothing at all to do with Obama’s bad fatih hectoring.  It has to do with real missed opportunities, and it still makes me mad to this day, more than 20 years later.

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
I hear you (4.00 / 3)
but I’m skeptical of any generalization about the commitment or work ethic of
any particular segment of the left, even broadly defined. I’d be shocked if you there weren’t lots of both lazy and committed people across the left.

I’m also skeptical of certitude when it comes to theories of change. I’m not so much pro-third party as I am anti-anti-third party and find the hostility toward third parties in some progressive circles unproductive and self-defeating.

“Progressives” often attack “radicals” for their lack of grip on reality — fair enough — but I don’t hear many progressive articulate comprehensive theories of change that makes sense to me. Keep on doing what we’re doing? Okay. Um, what are we doing again?  


[ Parent ]  
It's Not So Much Work Ethic (4.00 / 3)
I agree, that’s impossible to measure, much less generalize about.

But effectiveness ethic.  That’s what stings me.  The mentality that’s so focused on one’s own purity that anything concerned with building an actual capacity to change things is looked at askance.

I can’t for the life of me understand why folks can’t walk and chew gum at the same time: do your morally pure whatever 95-99% of the time, but spend a few hours every election cycle making sure that folks in your precinct are well-informed so that multi-million dollar special interest initiative campaigns don’t succeed.

BTW, in this model, anyone who participated was free to piggy-back anything they wanted to.  If they wanted to organize a food coop, a community garden, a local PETA chapter, whatever, they were free to pass out literature about it after first going through the common core information about the top initiatives.

So it was a perfectly-designed vehicle for everyone to participate. Yet the vast majority chose not to.

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
I quite firmly believe the dichotomy is there (4.00 / 1)
And if you re-read what I said, I credited the “other” left for having the correct analysis. In my experience, they generally shun organizing to produce change. They believe in protests and in third parties, which don’t really succeed in producing change.

[ Parent ]  
nobody doubts the dichotomy. (2.00 / 2)
its your arrogance, your smugness, your contempt that I was addressing.

[ Parent ]  
Get over it (0.00 / 0)
Seriously. If you are more swayed by tone than by content, that’s your problem.

[ Parent ]  
How Is It Smug (4.00 / 1)
when Robert says (twice!) that the “other” left has the correct analysis?

(I’d only say that some of them do!)

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
how, indeed? (4.00 / 1)
smug  (smg)
adj. smug·ger, smug·gest
Exhibiting or feeling great or offensive satisfaction with oneself or with one’s situation; self-righteously complacent: “the smug look of a toad breakfasting on fat marsh flies” (William Pearson).

http://www.thefreedictionary.c…


[ Parent ]  
Still Not Clear (0.00 / 0)
about how one is “self-righteously complacent” when one says that the “other” left has the correct analysis.


“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]  
Sorry. I guess you have to actually read the entire comment (4.00 / 1)
and not just the two throw away words.

[ Parent ]  
I doubt the dichotomy. "Robert" believes in the dichotomy (4.00 / 1)
without offering evidence. I believe it is a dishonest way to turn political disagreements into accusations. Here is a different way to look at it. If one is committed to environmental protection, and both parties have have the same destructive policies, then one has no choice, and cannot support either party. Someone who doesn’t care so much about the environment can then say that the person who draws the line is overly idealistic or refuses to “produce change.” Everyone has their own commitments.

[ Parent ]  
IF (0.00 / 0)
There were no difference between Barbara Boxer and Carly Fiorina on the environment, then pigs would fly.  Which would not necessarily be good for the environment, but I digress.

Like you said, “without offering evidence”

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
If the argument were about which individual to support, (4.00 / 2)
then things would be easy. But the argument is not about that. It is about working outside the Democratic party, and the Democratic party is subject to its own politics, as a body. I might support the position of an individual Republican, but I would never support the party.


[ Parent ]  
well put. (0.00 / 0)
Hard to understand why there is such a push once the topic is clearly raised to push it aside and pursue some other discussion,

[ Parent ]  
But You're Talking Schematically (0.00 / 0)
And I’m talking actual empirical situations.

That’s my point: you have to look at the actual situation.  You’re proposing a hypothetical & asking me to buy into your reasoning.  I’m proposing something much more radical: Why don’t we look at reality?  Why don’t we look at the actual situation I’m faced with?

If we want to play make-believe, then fine: I vote for the immediate banishment of all evil from the universe!  So there!

You can’t get much more pure than that.

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
And just to be clear here, I voted for Gore (0.00 / 0)
and volunteered for the Obama campaign. I voted Gore because I thought that Bush was an extremist, contrary to his “compassionate conservatism.” And I was right. But you know, Nader was right too. And he was right in the more important sense. Corporate influence is the root of all evils at this point.

I object to Chris’s argument because it is a conservative one. To say that change can occur only with the consent of the dominant institution and to call this a “theory” is a conservative argument. I don’t agree with your characterization of it as just being concerned with effectiveness.

The impulse Chris is giving in to here is the same desire to blame Nader despite the evidence. Whether one voted for Nader has nothing to do with it. It is the impulse to blame Nader that bothers me.  


[ Parent ]  
I Would Echo Robert Here (0.00 / 0)
In that, IMHO, Nader’s analysis of the problem is fine (not perfect, but certainly up there).

But Nader’s analysis of what to do about it is a trainwreck.

So, the question is, do I support a noble trainwreck?  Or try to muddle through to something better?

I’m not a great fan of muddling through, but I’ve seen enough Mike Leigh films to know that it’s often the best one can manage.  So, in that sense, I guess I am a great fan of muddling through.  Compared to the alternative, that is.

And yes.  Nader is to blame for the trainwreck.  Just because others are to blame as well, that doesn’t get him off the hook.

In fact, those with a clearer sense of what’s wrong ought to be better at seeing the way toward solutions, not worse.

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
Nevertheless Chris has given us a crude version of Edmund Burke. (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]  
Why are the choices the two mainstream political parties the only solution? (0.00 / 0)
Is it not possible that organizing outside of the dichotomy within which you have proscribed the situation is also a way forward?


“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
I Never Said They Were The Only Solution (4.00 / 3)
The most important work by far is what takes place outside the electoral arena, defining the content of what lies within.  That’s where I’ve spent most of my life energies.  I have no problem with the fact–as I mentioned earlier–that other progressives in LA might spend 95-99% of their energies in non-electoral work (even though “electoral” in that case was primarily initiative/issue-based).  My problem was simply that they failed to put any energy into the electoral side of things, even though doing so could have been used to directly enhance and expand the very work that they prioritized most.

And that’s roughly the same point I’m making here.  Given the structural & historical limitations of our system (which, by all means we should struggle to change, but in the meantime…) we have to realistically use what power we have within the institutional confines.  Trying to create a national third party is simply a waste of resources that will inevitably benefit Republicans.  Far better to put that sort of energy into creating a broad, independent value and issue-based coalition that can work creatively in coordination or opposition with the Democratic Party as the situation warrants–and support state-level third parties (like the NY Working Families Party) where that makes good strategic sense.

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
National alternative parties are still a noble goal (0.00 / 0)
so I don’t consider support to be a waste. Matter of choice. Local/state levels are a very good place to bring people into contact with the political realms. Not surprisingly, these are where protests are most effective as well.

As much as I respect reality, I know very well that even scientists, those who have made a vocation of using logic, experimentation, and rationality, often cannot agree as to what the “facts” actually mean. It is all done by humans, after all, there is no outside fact-checker. Some facts have been proven by practical example – successful engineering projects, for one. Surgery for another. Others, like global climate change being caused by humans, lack the one, impossible to spin, nail in the coffin, but supply ample staples to hold the lid down. Proof by a 1000 cuts, so to speak. Others are still a bit subject to the whims and wont of those collecting, defining, and interpreting the facts. Sub-atomic particles and stem cells, for example.

All of that makes me wonder about statements as to what is a waste and what is not. The second law of thermodymaics and the indestructibilty of matter and energy make me very suspicious of the whole concept of “waste”. Ditto anything to do with so-called “junk DNA”, but that’s a whole ‘nother diatribe. One trick of successful survival throughout evolution is to make use of the “junk”, if one insists on seeeing the issue from that perspective.


“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
Let's Keep It Simple, Okay? (0.00 / 0)
We have 0 examples of a national progressive third party having a positive impact on national politics absent a much broader social movement undergirding it.  Ergo, I think it makes much more sense to work on building the social movement, rather than the party.

This is nowhere close to the level of scientific proof in the hard sciences.  But it’s plenty good enough for me, even with the very small n involved.

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
Nothing simpler than thermodynamics and evolution 🙂 (0.00 / 0)
Of course, that’s where I make my living and settle my mind, so I’m biased.

Building social movements, now THAT is complex.


“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
Evolution Is Simple??? (0.00 / 0)
I hate to punctuate your equilibrium, but… !!!

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]  
Simpler than economic theory or that cognitive development (0.00 / 0)
scheme you’re always going on about, yeah.

At least to my mind.

Since the impact of molecular phylogy and comparitive genetics – the shape of tree of life is becoming clear. We’re way beyond bones. Mechanistically, too, survival is pretty straight forward. There is little doubt about the outcome. Life or death. What could be simpler?


“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
Practically The Simplest Dynamical System (0.00 / 0)
can produce chaotic outcomes.  So proof is in the pudding, not the ingredients.

No?

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
Chaos (0.00 / 0)
is merely an expansion of entropy. Second law of thermodynamics. Again, very simple to conceive. Shit happens. Life is stochastic.

The insight I got from thermodynamics, more precisely statistical thermodynamics and quantum mechanics, is that reality is a result of probabilities. Possible is one thing, probable is calculated (assuming certain aspects of reality). Everything is possible, a subset probable.

The “struggle” of reality is to remain probable despite all the other possible ways for matter/energy to gel into what beings living on the time scale (relativity, special or otherwise) of humans might be able to manifest. Or, perhaps it is no struggle at all – it could be as simple as water running down a hill.

Chaos is my (our) friend because when systems become chaotic the probabilities are less distinct. Change needs chaos. From a purely energetic perspective. That’s why I’m an anarchist. It maximizes chaos and entropy. Decentralizes power in colloquial terms. I desire alternative probabilities, so I promote chaos.

 

“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
But what change are we producing? If politician A (0.00 / 0)
supports policies that I do not agree with, then why the hell should I support politician A? Because Sarah Palin might be President?


[ Parent ]  
the threat of "it could be worse" is the new black (4.00 / 2)
it’s the justification Germany is using to bring back the Weimar Republic and the reason DNC fanz all over Twitter are berating me for not being excited to have a mandatory $300/month insurance bill

I wonder, if life under Obama has been virtually identical to life under Bush, how on earth COULD it be worse?


[ Parent ]  
It's true (4.00 / 3)
It really could be worse.

That’s a fact we have to deal with.

That does NOT mean that we should just settle for whatever bullshit that Obama and the Congress hand us. But it does mean we have to realize that it is true that things could well be worse – such as if Republicans came back into power – and that truth creates a strong argument for the compromisers.


[ Parent ]  
what would they be doing different? (4.00 / 1)
“reforming” health insurance by forcing private citizens into the arms of private insurers?

forming a committee led by Alan Simpson to dismantle Social Security?

going to the G20 and blindly agreeing to cut deficits on the backs of the poor?

putting David Petraeus in charge of Afghanistan and committing to a drawn out occupation?


[ Parent ]  
Like smug Robert in Monterey (0.00 / 0)
I think things could be worse under the Republicans. By itself this is not a reason to build the “slightly-better” Democratic Party that is his proud achievement. It is a complicated issue. As others have pointed out in this thread, the Democrats in minority are a stronger bastion against the attacks on Social Security that Obama is facilitating; likewise, I think a Republican successor to Bush might have had greater pause in escalating the Afghan war so brazenly…this is certainly arguable but I think a strong case can be made here. Clearly the health care reform (however flawed) and stimulus, stem cell research, less warlike talk with Iran are all better with Obama;  the gulf disaster would have occurred under Republicans but the case against offshore drilling could have been made strongly had not Obama discarded his avowed opposition and behaved generally like a floundering fool. Having siad all this, the issue is not better or worse, it is also a matter of where we are trying to go…supporting the “slightly-better” Dems is not going to produce the change the progressive left (not smug robert’s faux version) wants or this country needs.  

[ Parent ]  
actually (4.00 / 4)
had McCain been elected president, there’s no way that he gets a majority vote to cut SS/Medicaid.  Obama, on the other hand, just might pull it off.

But wait … McCain might keep escalating in Afghanistan, or declare he has the right to kill, extrajudicially, American citizens around the world …

Oh.

I think the differences are on the margins, and in some ways, because Obama was elected, and not a real liberal/progressive, we are worse off.


[ Parent ]  
It could be worse (4.00 / 1)
unless you vote the way you are supposed to.

“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
Elitists often appear smug (4.00 / 1)
to those whom they presume to lecture.


“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
In my experience, (4.00 / 1)
very few people “want to do the hard work of organizing.”

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.

[ Parent ]  
I think you're mixing up two ideas (0.00 / 0)
There’s non electoral vs. electoral work.
And there’s surface level performance vs. effective social protest (e.g. the Gaza flotilla or Thoreau’s civil disobedience or Chomsky’s writing or any number of other actions).

The two questions are not the same thing, and it’s not fair to pretend that they are.


[ Parent ]  
I've sorta become the opposite (0.00 / 0)
I find myself more radical now that I was, even if I don’t show it here.  

 
I feel the same way. The more I know, the less comfortable (0.00 / 0)
I am supporting moderate Dems. Ralph Nader said it best: everything pushes both parties to the right, and nothing seems to be push them to the left. The decision we make as to whether we are comfortable with mainstream partisan politics should be heavily dependent on where we are historically. Chris’s narrative is short-sighted, and only takes into account the years surrounding 9/11. I would argue that this is exactly the WRONG time to go with the flow, since that flow leads to a sewer.  

[ Parent ]  
I think that what you and DTOzone describe is the much more significant change (4.00 / 1)
going on in the body politic. Bowers has evolved from a radical to a more moderate Democratic party-builder. I am even familiar  with  Communists becoming extreme anti-Communists and Fascists become Communists. Such changes are sometimes quite understandable and are not always singular aberrations. But in the present times, I think the move away from the Democratic Party, and the dissatisfaction with it among progressives, is a more significant movement than the change Bowers describes.  

[ Parent ]  
I don't know that I'm "dissatisfied" with Democrats (4.00 / 1)
One of things I’ve done more recently is really stand up for my beliefs and not just stay quiet, but the more I do that, the more I understand why I always stood quiet when right wing friends and coworkers opened their mouths.

And what I’ve come to understand is that I’m way far to the left of most of this country. I know the Democrats I vote for will not see eye to eye with me all the time, because my country and my fellow citizens don’t see eye to eye with me.

I also understand how SCOTUS makes political reality less optimal. As a lawyer, I can see with near certainty that TBTF would be overturn on this SCOTUS…there no way it will hold up. Because of that, I can support a bill that doesn’t include that. Maybe after the next financial crisis, 46% of the country won’t trust Republicans to fix the system.  


[ Parent ]  
I consider myself as radical as I ever was (4.00 / 2)
ok, maybe not, maybe once I had more faith in marxist solutions than I do now, but in terms of understanding the problems, I’m no less radical and maybe more so than I used to be.

Translating that into action – into action that can actually work – and no, seeing Obama defeated and replaced by a Tea Party Republican government is not “working” in my book – that is where my thinking has evolved.  I harbor no illusions about what Barack Obama represents, but I also harbor no illusions about the power of the Netroots or the level of commitment of the masses of people who identify themselves as such.  There are far too many people who identify with the Left today, whose understanding does not go beyond tribalism, who need daily doses of Rachel Maddow or Keith Olberman or someone sneering at the other side, to keep their spirits sufficiently “up” to continue.  How you get to a viable Third Party or even a viable intra-party challenge to Obama now is not in the least bit clear.

Debating among ourselves about who truly is or isn’t a radical under these circumstances, is a waste of time.

Sometimes, lesser of two evils actually does represent the best tactic available at a given time, and the trick, if you have to go there, is to do so with your eyes open and to do it in such a way that you open others’ eyes and don’t drink the KoolAid.

sTiVo’s rule: Just because YOU “wouldn’t put it past ’em” doesn’t prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]  
Here's another perspective to think about (4.00 / 4)
Sometimes, lesser of two evils actually does represent the best tactic available at a given time, and the trick, if you have to go there, is to do so with your eyes open and to do it in such a way that you open others’ eyes and don’t drink the KoolAid.

The lesser of two evils pragmatic tactic is directed toward the two political parties. Unfortunately, the two political parties aren’t really all that different. The voting bases of the two parties, however, are incredibly different. The morale and level of engagement of their political base is where progressives need to focus their attention. When Republicans gain majorities, the Democratic base gets fired up and stops diseased legislation with as much opposition as it can muster. However, when the Democrats gain majorities, the Democratic base goes limp and the same corporate-friendly legislation that would have been protested under a Republican-dominated government simply sails through the legislature. So I ask you? Is it really better to vote for the lesser of two evils, if voting for Democrats with no principles makes it easier for corporate-friendly legislation to pass? I can’t conceive of the privatization of Social Security under a Republican-dominated government, but I sure can under a Democrat-dominated government. If you agree with this assessment, then doesn’t an intelligent attempt toward developing a third party alternative at least make some sense?


[ Parent ]  
sure, but the key word is "intelligent" (4.00 / 1)
You have a point here.

It took Clinton for them to get NAFTA passed.

If they screw Social Security under Obama, still another point.

Nonetheless, I think that eight years of Bush set us even further behind than we would have been.

All this deficit nonsense was aided and abetted by the Bush tax cuts.  Then there are the wars, the GWOT.  And I haven’t even mentioned the gift that keeps on giving – the Supreme Court – Citizens United, continued gun-nuttery decisions, etc.

An intelligent attempt must include an honest look at all sides of the question.  As disappointed and even angry as I am at Obama and the Democrats, we are better off now than we would have been with McCain or will be with a newly reenergized Tea Party Republican.  We are better off discussing the inadequacies of Obama than being out in the total wilderness trying to gin up “hope”.

Show me a place where a progressive third party is making a difference (let alone a positive difference) in a local race and I’ll be willing to listen.

It’s not about us.  It’s about the people we need to move with us.

sTiVo’s rule: Just because YOU “wouldn’t put it past ’em” doesn’t prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]  
Either way you go, there's going to be pain (4.00 / 1)
An intelligent attempt must include an honest look at all sides of the question.  As disappointed and even angry as I am at Obama and the Democrats, we are better off now than we would have been with McCain or will be with a newly reenergized Tea Party Republican.  We are better off discussing the inadequacies of Obama than being out in the total wilderness trying to gin up “hope”.

I’m not sure we are better off with Obama than McCain and there’s really no way to prove it one way or the other. If John McCain were President, the progressive base would be far more engaged in the issues. There would be tougher consequences for Democrats who voted with the GOP. Would there be Kabuki theater and typical Harry Reid deceitfulness? Sure. The difference, however, would be that the liberal base would be far more engaged and Democrats would be mindful of that. Yes, it would be painful if John McCain were dinking around the Oval Office, but we could probably count on gridlock to stop much of his more insane ideas.

The problem with third parties emerging on the Left is that about 50% of liberals are absolutely terrified to break out of the mold and try anything new. So one side on the Left goes to war over a third party attempt. For a third party to have any chance, it needs its base to get behind it, but that can’t happen when half of its base is cowering in fear of Republicans or actively attacking any new party. The reality is, however, with a third party or without a third party bad things will still happen. C’mon, we have a Democratic President advocating the assassination of US citizens without due process. How bad do things have to get before we accept that change will be painful and try something else anyway?  


[ Parent ]  
a chance at what though? (0.00 / 0)
What good is a third party is all it does is play spoiler? It’s not like it does anything. In the end, a Republican or Democrat is still governing.  

[ Parent ]  
What good? (4.00 / 2)
In recent years the number of “moderate” votes up for grabs in a Presidential election has often been less than 10% of the total.  If the Democratic Party determines its candidate almost solely in response to the alleged wishes of the 10%, I am totally ignored.  If the left can’t be taken for granted, then maybe it will be listened to and heeded at least a little.

[ Parent ]  
first ime I agree with VLaszlo, great comment sTiVo (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]  
We are still OK. (0.00 / 0)
My praise was directed at TLynch.

[ Parent ]  
I thought this excellent commentary. (0.00 / 0)
nt

[ Parent ]  
I've read #2 again and again (of the second group), trying to be charitable. (4.00 / 4)
It is quite shocking, and something that could have been written by a Republican. This blog is called Open Left, not DLC Forum. Leftist politics are made up of positions and worldviews. They are not coterminous with the Democratic Party or the Green Party. To my mind, Chris lost the distinction a while ago.


 
Yeah, that bit was extremely jarring (4.00 / 4)
Protesting the war was a bad thing? It’s “cynical” to work against the most pressing evil?

I get the feeling that if they hadn’t protested the war, he would be saying that the DFH’s are more concerned about their abstract economics than issues that actually affect people.


[ Parent ]  
Hippies get punched by everyone (4.00 / 2)
it seems. Who knew that opposing wars of agression based on lies would alienate the Democratic Party and their adherents.


“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
The Problems (0.00 / 0)
Regarding change I think it is important to first look at the obstacles in the way and outline objectives based on them. The primary obstacle to change that I see is that we’re all on deadline. Environmental collapse is, without much evidence to the contrary, the future. So the question is, how long do we have to achieve change? I’d say that the women’s suffrage movement, in its respective states, generally took about 100 years of agitation before a change came about. Is the women’s suffrage movement a useful metric for gauging how long various changes will take if we follow a conventional strategy? I don’t know. Obviously, changes that upset existing power structures take the longest.

Another obstacle might be widespread social unrest. It’s good to talk about change with respect to heading off problems that lead to social unrest, but it is also wise to think about change when widespread dissatisfaction manifests itself. In other words, when low-information voters start taking to the streets in large, angry numbers, what then?  The French Revolution is probably the most useful window we have on how things can play out in a worse case scenario.


 
This isn't the time to be less radical! (4.00 / 2)
Holy shit, we’re so screwed up if people start doing that. We need to radicalize the shit out of people if we want to see the fundamental change that our eco-crisis demands…

How bad is it going to have to get until open left threads start containing the word revolution??  

Agitate.Liberate.Create.


 
"the left shouldn't have objected to the eternal war in which we are now hoplessly mired" (4.00 / 2)
p.s. join Open Left Action

also, howabout those victories on health care, such as

uh


 
And we certainly shouldn't have objected to it less than (4.00 / 3)
three weeks after 9/11. Because you know, that was the time for jingoism, racism, and blind allegiance, regardless of your political views.

[ Parent ]  
It's still the same movement (4.00 / 3)
What happened here in Seattle 10 years ago was that first small pebble that sets off a chain reaction and eventually sends a cascade of rocks in all directions. Nader was the next pebble, Howard Dean was another, and so on and so forth. It takes on different forms as it moves into different parts of American culture, and interacts with, and is periodically hidden by, contemporary events.

It’s now both inside and outside, and I think one aspect of it is the blogosphere. Another is the slow but steady weakening of neoliberalism amongst the intelligentsia, and the broader “Consulting Class”.

None of this has had any impact whatsoever in policy coming out of DC or Brussels. But of course we all hope that is the next step.

Because as the signs at 6th & Union said: “If it doesn’t work for working families, it doesn’t work“.


 
Recommend: Movement Action Plan by Bill Moyer (4.00 / 3)
About 25 years ago, in another incarnation of this debate, Bill Moyer (not Bill Moyers the PBS reporter, but Bill Moyer the civil rights and anti-nuclear Quaker organizer, and now deceased) developed something he called the Movement Action Plan (MAP). MAP described the 8 stages of successful social change movements and four roles (citizen, rebel, change agent, and reformer) that progressive activists often take on — in either a useful or not-so-useful form.

To me, the greatest value of Bill’s work is seeing how the work of all progressives is important and useful (as long as people are actually doing something useful rather than just whining). We need the handful of impractical dreamers to engage in tiny, utopian protests against things that are wrong even when no one else cares, we need good community and issue organizers to educate the public and build grassroots movement organizations, we need bloggers and radio people to broadcast the news, we need electoral workers to get good candidates elected, we need good researchers and lobbyists to develop policies and try to get candidates to adopt them, and we need good political strategists to try to get the best possible legislation passed and implemented despite being outspent 10,000 to 1 and having the media viciously attack every reasonable thing we try to accomplish (and then have the courts overturn it). Every one of these tasks is essential and those who do them are also essential. We need both “pragmatists” and “utopians”. We need those who will slog through the dirty swamp of Democratic politics as well as those who never sully themselves by actually engaging with reality — and everything in between.

I recommend Bill’s analysis. Bill published his work first as a 16-page newspaper and eventually as a book called Doing Democracy available here: New Society Publishers, Amazon, Powells. Some of the material is on the web:
In this 41-page pdf.
In an abstract (in pdf).
Here is the chart of the four roles and how they mesh with the 8 stages.
And here is a 48-minute video of Moyer giving a presentation.


 
Solidarity (4.00 / 7)
I don’t honestly see how changing the country for the better doesn’t require the services of all of the main pagers here — and all of the commenters as well.

The left, however you define it, has to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time, or if you prefer something less colloqiual, I suppose you could say that there are many paths to God.

I don’t think that with as much work as there is to do, it helps much to call each other out on a supposedly faulty methodology. I’m not a big fan of either Nader or the Greens, but I give them full credit for helping us define our issues, and for keeping them in the public eye. However much the sheer tediousness of Congressional maneuvering frustrates me personally, I’m frankly damned glad that Chris, Matt and Mike are doing it for me, and very well, too, thank you very much. Wiithout Paul, John Emerson, jeffbinnc and others, it would be awfully difficult to know how to articulate either where we came from, or why we want what we want to those we are trying to persuade.

The obvious urgency of our situation makes us all a little crazy or short-tempered at times, but the sheer variety of the contributions to our common cause on display here is — for me, at least — something to wonder at. I’m glad to see it, warts and all.        


 
More Solidarity (4.00 / 5)
It is why I plan to continue progressive agitation and organizing within existing institutional structures (the Democratic Party, Congress, mass media), rather than outside of those structures.

It’s funny, I don’t agree with much of the argument here, as most of the claims could easily be turned around to come to the opposite conclusion (for example, Democrats opposed Bush era executive power abuses and then rather cynically – and hypocritically – turned around and supported Obama as he maintained or extended those abuses.)  But ultimately, that is beside the point, at least for me.  

The Democratic Party is a powerful institution (stop snickering.) Congress is a powerful institution. I am not willing to concede that power to our opponents, both within and without the Democratic Party.  And I don’t believe that contesting primaries, or supporting better Democrats necessarily means “supporting” the Democratic Party at large.  It means contesting for control of the party.  

That doesn’t mean I reject third parties out of hand (and it certainly doesn’t mean that one use one presidential campaign to draw conclusions about the utility of third parties in other contexts, including outside of presidential politics.) It doesn’t mean I reject more outside, non-electoral strategies either.

I think the theory of change argument is good to have, and to continue to have. But generally, it often seems that we end up comparing our preferred ways of operating in the abstract (i.e. possibilities) with more realistic / cynical ways of understanding other approaches.  Obviously, this impeded useful analysis. (And while I think Chis may have done it here, it seems common regardless of where people come down on these questions.)

So far, I’m not convinced that anyone really has the better of the argument.

Since I’ve already rambled on quite a bit, one more point can’t hurt. I agree with those above that have said that they value all the of front pagers here, and the commentariat as well.

Politics is the art of the possible, but that means you have to think about changing what is possible, not that you have to accept it in perpetuity.


 
Don't buy it. But questions: (4.00 / 2)
Or rather a point and a set of questions:

1. The important one:

What you are referring to is not radicalism, but impatience and poorly thought out tactics – and good for you for pointing it out, but your alternative is not much better in the long run.

Where I come from, as a radical (by U.S. standards ;), is that the strategies you outline are tactically extremely intelligent in the short and medium run, but the goals that you have are very different from mine in the long run.  You could take a simple utilitarian goal of maximizing the greatest amount of good for the greatest amount of people over the greatest amount of time (and the inverse for the negative) and I doubt it would hold up because you’re not talking about social structure at all, at least with any sense of urgency

For example, what unit of analysis are you using for measuring improvement in people’s lives?  The implied unit is the United States.  How can you defend this in the name of progressivism when something like 0.5% of the world’s population lives in the United States but nearly all of the world’s populations are affected by its policies?  In other words, no taxation (or drone killings) without representation.

2. The questions:

To what extent is the political structure independent of the social structure?

How do you believe social change works outside the electoral realm?

How do you believe the electoral realm can enable or disable social change?

What impedes social change in the electoral structure?

What impedes social change in the social structure?

How are you measuring costs and benefits?  Who are the costs and benefits falling on?  How do you assess their extent?

What is your time frame and what do you want to accomplish in it?  What are you goals in the short, medium, and long runs?  What will allow you to sustain the existence of your goals if your political power has ebbed?

What strategy does consideration of the questions above lead you to?

On the basis of those answers, how do you align your strategy and tactics on a flexible basis to respond to threats from the far right that are still present while acknowledging that the Democratic Party establishment as it is today is currently helping to consolidate the gains of the rich, the financial and insurance sectors, while doing little to facilitate social organising?


 
how I stopped being a radical (0.00 / 0)
Lefties should stop beating themselves up for Nader v. Gore. The fact of the matter is that America is normally a conservative nation. Since Reagan, the conservatives have been growing in numbers and fervor, not to mention in extremism. Until, the schemes and failed policies of conservatism pile up and topple over, lefties will be fighting one long and tough struggle. Isn’t that enough of a challenge?

 
Those early Bush years (4.00 / 1)
I felt relief when “liberals” or “progressives” or whatever started slamming Nader again about 12 months after 9/11. It was the first sign that they wanted to separate themselves from Bush. Because the months from Sept 2001 well into 2002 saw the vast majority of liberals I knew rallying behind the president. It was an ugly, ugly time in American politics.

I’ve made it clear that my cenotaph is to read “He never waivered in his hatred of George Bush.” Most liberals can’t make that claim, as much as they’d like people to think so.  


 
I can make that claim (4.00 / 1)
Whether I’m a liberal may be an open question. But it ain’t just Bush. It is all that seating him in the WH and turning over the military to Cheney and Rumsfeld implies about this nation and the power structures that command it. If some of that disdain splashes on Democrats, so be it.


“It sounds wrong…
     …but its right.”


[ Parent ]  
Vision horizon (4.00 / 1)
Just a brief comment because I’m pretty sure that this post is all worn out for new ideas, but one thing that I am interested in is the concept of time frame for change. When one focuses on short time frames it is easy to support even a “bad” Dem. I believe that most Nader supporters in 2000 would have said Gore was a better choice than Bush. Perhaps the difference between an F and and F- but still ever so slightly better. If you “know” that one of the two of them will win then you are better off going for the F than the F- (or abstaining). The only time it becomes useful to make ANY other choice is if your ultimate goals are removed beyond that immediate race.

In 2000 the progressive Nader voters clearly were thinking long-term. The progressive Gore voters were thinking short term. The argument of the progressive Gore voters was that the realities of the short term were more important (or beneficial) then potential change in the long term. As Chris says, in retrospect it is hard to disagree.

But as long as you are choosing the F over the F- you aren’t going to get an A.  


 
But That's Over-Simplifying (4.00 / 2)
In at least two ways:

First, that so-called “short-term” thinkers will also include folks who actually are thinking long-term, but place greater value in a path that’s substantially more concrete than anything the purported “long-term” thinkers have.

Second, that there’s a considerable difference in who does the bulk of the “short-term” suffering, vs. who gets the luxury of thinking “long-term”.

The second point was the most important made by a Marxist critic of Nader at the 2000 DNC “Shadow Convention” convened by Arianna Huffington (which I referred above).  But the first point figured into the analysis as well.  

I’m not saying you don’t have a point.  It’s just that it’s not really that simple.  There are other points to consider as well.

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
Correct (0.00 / 0)
You’re right…

Nothing is that simple. It is actually the balance of how much short term disappointment are you willing to put up with for how much long term gain (and each of those multiplied by an uncertainty factor or rather a distribution of expected disappointments and gains). Your concept of “disappointment” and “gains” is also colored by your conception of distance between the two parties (or candidates) and their relative position to your idealized party (or candidate).

I also very much appreciate your second point above. I wonder perhaps if that is a difference between leftist third party movements and rightist movements. It seems to me that tea partiers are more able to look toward long term goals because they can more easily tolerate short term failures (that largely don’t affect them).  


[ Parent ]  
Even Moreso (0.00 / 0)
This is certainly both true and significant:

It seems to me that tea partiers are more able to look toward long term goals because they can more easily tolerate short term failures (that largely don’t affect them).

But, in fact, I’d go farther: conservatism is virtually built on failure–which is then blamed on everything except conservatism.

Zombies much?

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
what a delightfull comment thread (0.00 / 0)
A few observations and opinions:

The current situation can’t really be compared to others in the past, because of highly visable and fast approaching unsustainability. Climate change, natural resource depletion, drug resistant pathogens… among others. So our time frame is short.

I also believe the public are more aware of the situation than most here seem to think. And that the “critical mass” necessary for dramatic change is rapidly building on it’s own accord.

As for the question of “lesser evil”/continuing to try to make the existing (two corporate party) mess work; the last 3+ decades of constantly reduced lifestyle, rights, and influence should make this easier to decide.

The logic mentioned upthread about deliberatily letting targeted democratic senetor/s or representative/s lose because they work against us is far superior. If labor had supported Blanch after she lied to them face to face, their influence would have vanished… Like ours has, according to Emanual, and the DNC.

If I am correct, there will be a (probably short) period of time when the angry mob will be coachable. The fascists will be ready with their well thought out and tested propaganda, mountains of money and media control. They still believe they can “hire half the population to kill the other half”.

We need bold, new action set in motion now to have any chance of winning the comming struggle for hearts and minds. This conflict could decide life or death for a substantial portion the population.

Government by organized money is just as dangerous as government by organized mob….. FDR


 
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