On the progressive divide

by: Chris Bowers

Tue Jul 06, 2010 at 19:30


Over at the Huffington Post, Peter Daou has a good article up about the ongoing intra-progressive argument about supporting the Obama administration vs. taking an oppositional stance to the administration.  Here is the intro:

There is a civil war on the left over Barack Obama. The fault lines are jagged, and depending on the issue, porous, but broadly, the split is along two fronts:

  1. Those who believe that critiquing — and occasionally opposing — the president on issues such as gay rights, civil liberties and national security is healthy and necessary and those who believe that Obama’s progressive critics are going too far, reinforcing rightwing attacks and undermining his presidency.

  2. Those who argue that an incremental approach is the best we can hope for and that Obama’s list of accomplishments is impressive and those who say that in the long run, watered-down legislation, half measures and empty ‘bipartisanship’ are worse for America (and the Democratic Party).

I agree with Peter’s premise that this is largely a false choice. There is no reason why you can’t work toward an ideal aim while, in the face of powerful entrenched opposition, accepting whatever victories you can manage along the way.  In fact, as Peter notes, selling the core values that undergird your completed vision for the country is necessary in order to make your incremental victories as large as possible:

Strikingly, this civil war is premised on a false choice: that an incremental legislative approach and a well-articulated grand ideological vision are mutually exclusive. They’re not. Rapid, sweeping changes may not be feasible in the face of entrenched interests and steely GOP obstructionism, and credit should be given to the president for seeking and achieving solid wins. But neither is the White House prohibited from standing up for core Democratic ideals and presenting them powerfully and unflinchingly, explaining to the public in clear terms why Democrats have the better plan for America. Nor does the glacial pace of progress in Washington obviate the need to reverse George Bush’s radical excesses, something the Obama administration has failed (so far) to do.

Perhaps this civil war keeps raging not because people fail to understand that this is a false choice, but instead because there is a third dimension to the argument.  Specifically, the third front would be between

  • Those who believe that the Obama administration achieved as much incremental progress as was possible over the last 18 months, or very close to it;

    versus

  • Those who think significantly more could have been achieved had the Obama administration been more progressive and / or aggressive.
For my part, I am definitely in the second camp.  More could have been achieved with a more aggressive and / or progressive administration. A public option was possible. A bigger stimulus was possible. Stupak was not invulnerable. A whole lot could have changed in our homeland security policies.  We could definitely have passed a stronger Wall Street reform bill.  As someone who was closely involved in a couple of these fights–health care and financial reform-I will simply never accept that we could not have done better (and I was, and still am, in favor of passing both bills).

However, to throw in a wrinkle, I also don’t trust progressives who place no blame on themselves for what was not achieved.  This is not meant to draw equivalence between individual grassroots activists and members of the Democratic leadership, as the latter obviously shoulder more responsibility due to their relatively greater influence.  What I do mean is that there are ways we all could have acted more effectively, even if sometimes those ways were only visible in hindsight.  For example, a Medicare buy-in was probably always a more viable (and perhaps better) idea than a public option, financial reform probably should have been tackled right after the budget fight finished up in April of 2009, and the netroots still have a very limited Capitol Hill presence.

To put it as plainly as I can, I think that the Obama administration could have done better, and that both sides of the intra-progressive debate Peter Daou describes could have been more effective, too.  Further, since I am not in the Obama administration, I am actually more interested in the ways that progressive online organizations can be more effective, since those are the groups and the people who I actually work with.  From my vantage point, that is also a lot more empowering than just sitting around arguing over whether or not President Obama is actually a progressive at heart.

Chris Bowers :: On the progressive divide

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I Agree That The Third Dimension Is More Important In Many Respects (4.00 / 4)
But I also think that a lot of folks are not really all that progressive–including Obama.

My point about creating an American version of the conservative welfare state remains central to this critique (and supported by Jeff’s ongoing coverage of Obama & Duncan’s war on public education).  But it’s backed up by a range of other actions as well.  What’s so progressive about prosecuting whistle-blowers, for example?  Or the ongoing coziness with BP in suppressing news coverage of the oil spill?

I’ll have more on this come the weekend, to be sure.

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


 
There is a difference (0.00 / 0)
between judging people based on the policies they advance (or even on their rhetoric) and judging people on what you imagine their motives to be.  It seems to me you’ve been doing the former.

Support the Youth PROMISE Act

[ Parent ]  
Yes, To Some Extent I Have (4.00 / 4)
When people repeatedly say they want X just like you, but are repeatedly pushing for Y instead, sooner or later you have to start wondering about it.

More than that, I’ve pointed out that the “Third Way” self-explanation vs. the “social democratic left” is demonstrably false.

For exmple, claiming that it’s simply a matter of preferring regulation and the use of private entities to acheive public ends makes no sense at all of the “Third Way” refusal to adequately re-regulate Wall Street to avoid future financial catastrophes.

When grand narrative explanations prove so obviously false, there’s clearly a need to inquire as to what’s really actually going on.

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
Are you introducing a "fourth dimension"? (4.00 / 2)
namely, that we are forced to confront the [sad] truth that Washington culture, on a fundamental level, is not really sympathetic to the progressive world views. Which is an obvious point,  because going truly progressive invariably means that [some] power gets wrestled away from dominant power players. And those who’ve been dominant do not readily relinquish such powers they were able to amass. Obama to me, is entrenched power’s response to potential push back from progressive populism. What can be better than to hide behind a well spoken wanna-be populist, who says the right words – and says them well, sometimes, but in reality will work to preserve privilege? and how can Obama not do so, having been the lucky recipient of privilege’s largess? The bickering in the ranks of the left is a measure of the triumph of real power, because as we argue whether Obama is really a progressive – or not – the real fight gets defocussed and it’s purpose blunted. As epitomized by Tomasky – whom you took to task.

The more disturbing corollary of the ‘fourth dimension” for activism – on any level – is that dominance also means having control over much of the wealth, and as Chris likes to point out, progressives, may make much noise – and even good noise at times – but their effectiveness is blunted by lack of resources – real and perceived. Because if all progressives have to put up against great wealth is masses and voices, well, they have not been able to turn enough of either out to be perceived as a real threat to entrenched special interests and the power base on which they rest.

I think  this may be a good time to dust off and reread some of Judge Brandeis’ takes on why it was so important to defang (or try) the robber barons.  Perhaps we all got too complacent and failed to notice the re-emergence of the new barons. My theory is that a good part of the most effective arsenal progressives have had – including, especially, remedies of law or a truly free press — has been effectively cowed and/or co-opted, due to entangled cross-interests.


[ Parent ]  
There are a lot of issues — (4.00 / 8)
mostly in the “terror war” realm —  on which I wish Obama were making incremental progress, but of course he’s continuing or worsening the Bushian approach, which is saying something. If the choice between incremental and fundamental choice is false, so too is the claim that it’s merely incrementalism that Obama critics are opposing: it’s centrism, corporatism, and conservatism: the very opposite of progressivism.



 
But David! (4.00 / 4)
In eleventy gazillion dimensions, every direction is it’s own opposite!

Or, at the very least, there are too many dimensions to keep track of, so you can never really be sure!

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
That's just one of the ways (4.00 / 9)
that admirers misrepresent the arguments of the critics.

Even the standard, seemingly inoffensive claim that critics think Obama is too quick to compromise isn’t quite right. In a lot of cases — financial reform, for example — the problem wasn’t that Obama settled for less than he wanted but that he wanted less than was possible: that is, he worked to make the bill less progressive.  


[ Parent ]  
Nailed it exactly! (4.00 / 3)
the problem wasn’t that Obama settled for less than he wanted but that he wanted less than was possible



[ Parent ]  
I'm definitely in the first camp (4.00 / 1)
getting better legislation requires changing the minds of people whose minds don’t want to be changed, or getting active people who are too clueless or careless to be active.

This is the best we can do in a society dominated by the irrational and by hatred. I come across them everyday, people who vote Democrat, but speak Republican. People who want progressive policies, but don’t want to pay for them. People who love torture and war.  


 
Obama is better than a President McCain but…. (0.00 / 0)
The President missed an opportunity to hit a lot more out of the park but instead fell into the kool-aid of DC politics.

I’ll vote for him again but focus my effort to get rid of the crappy blue dogs in the house and senate who give him cover to shank balls in the infield.


 
I don't know about the progressive divide (4.00 / 9)
but it seems to me if one continues to support Obama and his blatantly and repulsive Bush-like, Bush-lite policies, it is hard for me to discern why one would even want to be considered progressive. Obama is not “non-progressive”, mostly he is “anti-progressive” and his administration gets a special charge in sticking it to the left. One can go down a long list which covers every aspect of governance in which this axiom holds and most of us are well aware of it. Look at the Bowers dichotomy: either one “believes that the Obama administration achieved as much incremental progress as was possible over the last 18 months, or very close to it”  or one “thinks significantly more could have been achieved had the Obama administration been more progressive and / or aggressive”. Actually if this is the genuine progressive dichotomy I am not sure why it uniquely applies to Obama. I actually felt that significantly more could have been achieved by Bush-Cheney had they been more progressive too.

I am not sure we speak the same language any more. Many progressives, many leftists, have observed that we have a much harder struggle to preserve Social Security and many of the New Deal and War on Poverty programs under Obama than under an opposition government. I had the following realization a few days ago and it really shook me up. There is NO chance we will end the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan under Obama or any Democratic administration. Democrats in general, and Obama in particular do not have the fortitude, the courage, the willingness to take on the Republican charges of surrender. Obama is even more pusillanimous and unprincipled than most Democrats. Look at every major conflict the US has been in since WW II. Korea was started by Truman and ended under Eisenhower; both Ike and JFK had a role in the start of Vietnam, LBJ really got it going, but it was Nixon who ended it, ignominiously…but he ended it; Nixon also changed the entire foreign policy of the US with the opening to China. Obama may say the war in Iraq makes no sense, but he won’t end it. I am certain of it. Every action Obama takes is in deference to established authority established wisdom. As for Afghanistan, it is really his war…he owns it. Steele let the cat out of the bag. In private, everyone in Washington knows the whole fucking escalation is American face-saving; we can’t possibly remake Afghanistan…the government, the country. Obama is blithering away telling bullshit, promising false timelines…as soon as the Republicans and Petraeus say boo he will be in full retreat. Where does Obama’s escalation fit into Bowers’ dichotomy. Maybe one of the “Bowers’ progressives” can take a stab at it: is Afghanistan with its cost of 3.6 billion dollars a month “incremental progress” or is it “not as progressive as possibly could have been if Obama had been a touch more progressive.” It is neither. It is reactionary, a disaster  financially as well as in terms of foreign policy. Like so much this administration has done it is on neither side of the progressive divide; and the attempt to frame it that way is at best seriously mistaken (at worst it is dishonest).


 
I desperately want Mike Lux and Chris Bowers to respond to this (4.00 / 1)
p.s. is it incremental progress to assemble a committee on the budget deficit and pack it with individuals who have openly declared their intention to dismantle the American social safety net?

p.p.s. no tax increases on the wealthy

p.p.p.s. “if you support a primary challenger you are a wasteful fool”


[ Parent ]  
I don't speak for Lux or Bowers (0.00 / 0)
but I genrerally agree with them so I’ll take a stab:

p.s. is it incremental progress to assemble a committee on the budget deficit and pack it with individuals who have openly declared their intention to dismantle the American social safety net?

No, this is not incremental progress, it’s regress.  I doubt that anyone who supports “incremental progress” would use this as an example.

p.p.s. no tax increases on the wealthy

This is not incremental progress either

p.p.p.s. “if you support a primary challenger you are a wasteful fool”

In principle I support primary challengers to backstabbing Democrats and in practice I donate to those I think may be viable, for example, Bill Halter.

sTiVo’s rule: Just because YOU “wouldn’t put it past ’em” doesn’t prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]  
You and what army? (2.00 / 4)
Just because your critiques are basically correct doesn’t mean that constantly reiterating them to a small group of like-minded individuals is an effective political strategy.

I won’t tell you to shut up, because I basically agree with your criticisms, but I would like you to also tell me what you would have us do to help get us to a place that’s better than this one.  

sTiVo’s rule: Just because YOU “wouldn’t put it past ’em” doesn’t prove that THEY did it.


 
Sorry, the above was meant for VLaszlo, not for Chris. (0.00 / 0)


sTiVo’s rule: Just because YOU “wouldn’t put it past ’em” doesn’t prove that THEY did it.

[ Parent ]  
accepting that you have a problem is the first step (4.00 / 1)
more aptly, pretending that you DON’T solves nothing

also, nice uncalled for adversarial tone brah


[ Parent ]  
What makes you think (4.00 / 1)
that I am pretending we don’t have a problem?

It’s obvious that we have a BIG problem and it’s that not easy to see a solution.

I suppose you might say my tone was a bit harsh, however, so is much of the criticism of Bowers (although yours, I must say, was not).  Still, the points he is making are NOT refuted by simply listing all the ways Obama falls short.

And about not seeing problems, ask yourself if you are perhaps not being overly sanguine about what it will be like to live under a Tea Party regime.  I wouldn’t be so sure that the same tactics that ULTIMATELY were effective against Bush (after being ineffective for many years) will be as successful against an Tea Party successor regime.  This, as well as our assessment of Obama, ought to factor into our decisions.

sTiVo’s rule: Just because YOU “wouldn’t put it past ’em” doesn’t prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]  
you're totally buying into the false premise that the Tea Party is a credible threat to overtake the Bushies/Religious Right in the RNC (4.00 / 2)
despite what CNN and ABC may lead you to believe, there’s not that many of them

also this is an awesome example of using “IT COULD BE WORSE” to defend Obama, when in reality there have been very, very few tangible differences between the second half of Bush’s reign and the first 180 (or whatever days) of Obama’s loving tribute to St. Reagan


[ Parent ]  
Not exactly (4.00 / 1)
you’re totally buying into the false premise that the Tea Party is a credible threat to overtake the Bushies/Religious Right in the RNC

No, I’m seeing that there isn’t much difference between the Tea Party and the RNC.  The Tea Party, Limbaugh, Palin are the shock troops.  It’s all, basically, the same.  I don’t want them in power, if I can avoid it.

I’m not trying to defend Obama, who has done a lot to bring this on himself.  But yes, I am trying to play defense on some pretty hostile terrain – not of Obama, but by what’s left of progressive politics.  I’m not happy that it looks like we’re going to have to enter a phase of “lesser of two evils” politics, but that’s where it looks like we’re heading.

You’re damned right it could be worse.  Do you really think it couldn’t?


sTiVo’s rule: Just because YOU “wouldn’t put it past ’em” doesn’t prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]  
Some replies: (4.00 / 2)
“Just because your critiques are basically correct doesn’t mean that constantly reiterating them to a small group of like-minded individuals is an effective political strategy.”

This is not political strategy at all…at least not at the moment. It is intended to be some analysis. Like Bowers post which on the other hand you liked so much. It also is analysis and not political strategy.

“I would like you to also tell me what you would have us do to help get us to a place that’s better than this one.  ”

I keep coming back to what I have said in the past that is building a progressive movement, a movement based on popular needs,  outside of the Democratic Party. This means left-leaning unions, peace movement, and other progressive parties and groups. This means calling them and urging them to disassociate from the Democratic party and work from outside it since working inside the Democratic Party just encourages and enables Obama-style Bushian politics.   It means promoting dissent from harmful policies, war, environment, bank bailout, need for infrastructure, civil rights, human rights. Why don’t you now say what it is you have been doing better “to help get us to a place that’s better than this one”.  


[ Parent ]  
Your behavior is pretty shitty. (4.00 / 1)
You know you have called me out repeatedly and asked what I “would have us do to help get us to a place that’s better than this one.  ”  OK. I  think I have in good faith answered you. I am not thrilled that my answer seems thin gruel but that is how I understand things. At the end of my reply just above I ask you (since you raise this whole line of discussion)
“Why don’t you now say what it is you have been doing better “to help get us to a place that’s better than this one”. ”
and you just ignore it. Aren’t I entitled to the same courtesy you require? or do you rant and rant and when people ask you for details in a reasonable way just ignore them?

[ Parent ]  
Amen, brother (4.00 / 1)
I am actually more interested in the ways that progressive online organizations can be more effective, since those are the groups and the people who I actually work with.  From my vantage point, that is also a lot more empowering than just sitting around arguing over whether or not President Obama is actually a progressive at heart.

Yes, exactly so.

While assessing Obama is necessary and valuable, if that’s the sum total of one’s political activity, it’s hard for me to see where that’s anything more than a “hobby”.

Enough with abstract discussions of whether Obama deserves a primary or third-party challenge.  Bring me a challenger and then we can have a meaningful discussion.  Bring me a movement of the unemployed and we can discuss whether and how to support it.  etc.

In the long run, nobody but those who read this blog cares what we think of Obama.


sTiVo’s rule: Just because YOU “wouldn’t put it past ’em” doesn’t prove that THEY did it.


 
I really don't understand you. (4.00 / 1)
You applaud “I am actually more interested in the ways that progressive online organizations can be more effective, since those are the groups and the people who I actually work with.  From my vantage point, that is also a lot more empowering than just sitting around arguing over whether or not President Obama is actually a progressive at heart. ”

What are these ways? And to what ends? I am told endlessly, repetitively by you and others every time you post how you are tired of these “abstract” discussions and their repetitions to a like minded audience. You say it above with your “you and what army?” comment. Well why don’t you answer similarly: you say you are “finding” methods of being more effective, but what are you effecting positively? Are we closer to a public option? a ban on drilling for oil? an exit from our  wars? insulated from the catfood commission? What have you and “your army” done? accomplished? achieved? that you are so able to dismiss “my army”? Have you built up the progressive movement? Has the trajectory of the country been changed? are we on the right track or getting there? If we do not agree where we are, what the problem is, how to deal with it, how can you talk of the superiority of action? And you go on and on and on about action, but we never really hear more than a few primaries, and contributions to  political campaigns. You seem unwilling to even discuss unemployment…it IS a basic issue. How do you put it? “Bring [you] a movement of the unemployed and we can discuss whether and how to support it.  etc.”
And you apply these standards to all the issues you discuss? I don’t think so.


[ Parent ]  
The question (0.00 / 0)
is where these movements are now.

I’d like them to be forming, everything I know about history says they should be forming.  But I look around and I see nothing forming, not only in the United States, but worldwide.

I am for anything that gains traction in pushing back.  If teachers want to go on strike against Obama-Republican attacks on their unions – or back some third party candidate, I’m with them.

If a third party of the left can find a niche somewhere and capture enough of the disaffection to become a credible threat to win, or at least to force the Dems to defend their left flank – I’m with them.

If groups of the unemployed want to demonstrate in Washington, let me on the bus.

But if none of those things, or anything like them, happen, then, no I’m not ashamed to play defense.  It’s not a comfortable position, it doesn’t make me feel good.  But I’ll make a stand anywhere I can.

sTiVo’s rule: Just because YOU “wouldn’t put it past ’em” doesn’t prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]  
Here's one case, Laszlo, where I applaud you (0.00 / 0)
This Quick Hit and this article you reference there.

The difference, I see?

The article sticks to the facts and seeks to build resistance to the repugnant policies of the Administration.  It’s fresh, it gives support to people who ARE fighting back.  It doesn’t demand that they “break with the Democratic Party” first of all.

I think it is tempting to shorthand everything into “break with Obama”.  It’s a temptation that should be avoided.  It demands that people take the big step before they’ve taken the small step of standing up for themselves.  These people are actually breaking with Obama on an issue of policy that’s important to them – without making Obama the centerpiece of their story.

sTiVo’s rule: Just because YOU “wouldn’t put it past ’em” doesn’t prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]  
I realize that one of the problems we have is a generational issue. (4.00 / 2)
I have been around the left a lot longer than you have. You see things on the basis of a much shorter term outlook; I am trying to see where things are heading longer term. If Obama’s quickfix on the economy, unemployment, TARP are not getting us out of recession, what happens to the economy, what happens to the left? If the Democrats will NEVER get us out of the wars, should we be putting efforts and moneys into the structures that contribute to the problem. I think in the long term, spending an hour and a dollar building a progressive movement outside the Democrats is better than a year and a thousand dollars helping elect some faux reformer who is running to his left and governing from the right. (If we have a few heros of the left in the Democratic party, say a Bernie Sanders, yes I think we should support him…yes I know formally he is an Independent) but not a Joe Sestak, who is upfront about his strong support for the Afghan disaster.  I have used this example repeatedly and you and others refuse to speak directly to it. I am asking you to do it again. Bowers works on the Sestak campaign. That is one of your “effective political strategies”. And I am saying it is NOT. Tell me if you think this is one of your effective political strategies? It gets us deeper in one of the worst Obama abominations and makes it still harder to get out. You know…”even progressive Senator Joe Sestak thinks fighting in Afghanistan forever is a wonderful way to piss away 3.6 billion dollars every month”.

Each of us is different and you say build you a movement or an action and you will consider joining; I say that if we are headed in the direction I suspect we are, then that movement WILL appear, possibly by itself at first, but understanding that, we should prepare structure for when it comes. (If it never comes, neither approach amounts to so very much; but I think my approach is still more valuable in terms of change than the short-term outlook you adopt).


[ Parent ]  
How young do you think I am? (0.00 / 0)
I’m 57.  You may be older than that (how many twenty-somethings would think of a character from Casablanca as their handle – unless your name really IS Victor Laszlo), but I doubt you’re much older.

No, I suspect that whatever differences we have are not entirely due to our ages.

I actually agree with you that a movement may be coming.  There are signs of it for sure.  The article you posted from the teachers’ site is a wonderful example.

I do question the effectiveness of the structure that you seem to want to get prepared.  I think that when this movement does happen, it will look quite a bit different from what either of us suspects.  

One thing I learned long ago in the movement was that beating people over the head with what you know to be right seldom works.  Only extremely rarely does someone tell you that you’ve lifted the scales from their eyes.  Much more common is that you notice someone starting to echo points you made earlier.  You’ve made an impression, even though the other person has never said so.  For that to work you need to be in closer personal relations than is possible on any web site.

As for Sestak, I say, compared to what?  He’s an improvement over Specter and would you rather have Toomey?  Of course not.

I’d love to end the Global War on Terror.  I’d love to see a politician who didn’t kowtow to Israel on every point.  Who really supported working people.  Who didn’t bash teachers’ unions just because that position is supposedly poll-tested.

But I don’t have that choice in the political arena – now.  And no, I don’t know how we get there.  So, it’s one day at a time for me.

sTiVo’s rule: Just because YOU “wouldn’t put it past ’em” doesn’t prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]  
OK thanks for this reply (0.00 / 0)
I thought you were younger than that. Nevertheless you did miss I believe the anti-Vietnam War/Civil Rights battles of the 60’s which actually had a breath of real radical change within them.

While I agree with a lot of what you say here and I have a better idea of where you are coming from, let me just point out that all of your “one day at a time” is fine…at least fine for you…but I don’t remember railing at you about it (as you did with your “you and what army” remark at me). My point is that our power to change is severely circumscribed. But that does not make your choice the better in the long run. I would think with what you have said here you would understand that, and understand as well that just because you see things a certain way does not make the actions you choose an optimal choice. It also doesn’t mean reducing all ideas to “what are your actions”? which trivializes discussion…at least the way you used it. I thought that was the purpose of a blog like this…to hash these things out.


[ Parent ]  
Fair enough (0.00 / 0)
but

1. I was a precocious kid, interested in politics long before I could vote.  I remember listening to the 1964 convention on a radio when I would have been 11.  So I didn’t participate much in the Civil Rights movement directly, although by the time I was in High School, I was participating in anti-war demos.  The movement basically started to die just as I was entering my college years, much to my disappointment.

2. I apologize for unloading on you.  We haven’t discussed much between us before.  I do, though get annoyed by what I perceive to be the almost knee-jerk reactions to anything Chris Bowers says these days, and you are only one of the people who sometimes annoy me in that way.  You were a convenient target, and I shouldn’t have been so harsh.  

My main point is that we can assess Obama 24×7 on this site and it won’t make a bit of difference.  The difference as I see it between those who think like Bowers (and me to some extent) and those who think like you (again – my perceptions) is that it has to translate at some point into action, otherwise it’s meaningless.  That point, it seems to me, is getting closer by the day, yet some folks seem perfectly willing to opine about Obama without ever suggesting anything to do.  I’d much rather discuss whether this or that candidate deserves support/primarying, or whether this or that third-party effort is going to amount to anything than to discuss these in the abstract.  To be fair, you do make some pointed remarks about Sestak.  I don’t agree with you, but that’s at least a point that can be usefully discussed.

sTiVo’s rule: Just because YOU “wouldn’t put it past ’em” doesn’t prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]  
I am glad in the end we are having a discussion (0.00 / 0)
and I am sure like me you feel that for the moment we have both said enough. But you make  clear and explicit the frustration you feel by the likes of me unloading on Obama and his supporters/apologists or those who feel however bad he is, he is the only choice they have. Please keep in mind that frustration cuts two ways. Every unanswered betrayal by Obama and the Democrats certainly raises the question for many of us why any progressive would sweep under the rug what is manifestly wrong and immoral.

I think over my life I have devoted a good part of my life to progressive causes (and my parents before me suffered directly from the McCarthy witchhunts as well for their involvement in fights for social and economic justice and to stop fascism). I don’t think you should assume that just because you don’t agree with what I and others are saying that we are necessarily “not doing useful things”. I do not know where that presumption would even come from.


[ Parent ]  
I find this discussion totally depressing (4.00 / 11)
On many issues Obama seems committed to doing the wrong thing. You really have to cherry pick to find cases when he tried to do the right thing, but was blocked.

What I too often end up thinking about is not which strategy is best, blah blah blah, but whether there’s any hope at all. Anything we do is in the face of the determined opposition of the Democratic Party, to say nothing of the Republican Party.  


 
Just tired of the lies (4.00 / 9)
Paul wrote above:

When people repeatedly say they want X just like you, but are repeatedly pushing for Y instead, sooner or later you have to start wondering about it.

I assume he’s speaking of Obama and his “people” it gets to the crux of lost faith. For a public option while embracing Lieberman’s shaft; For strong financial reform while undermining efforts on derivatives, the Volcker rule, etc.; For closing Guantanamo before they were against it; For rehabilitating the Fourth Amendment while continuing to undermine it; Saying “Yes, we can!” while continually accepting ‘no, we can’t.’ Etc. Etc.

Saying it but not doing it isn’t Change. We Can’t Believe In it. It’s a criminal squandering of their most basic, foundational positioning.

I’m not into shrill absolutism. I can accept non-optimal, half-a-loaf progress that can be built upon. Hell, I can even accept giving some things I oppose if the overall outcome is progress that can be built upon. But I’m just damn tired of being lied to…

RT @Atrios: …people (who) genuinely can’t discern between facts and their opinions really annoy


 
You're not being shrill at all. Just realistic. (4.00 / 3)
We’re way out of idealism territory and have been for years now. In this sense, Daou is also offering a false dichotomy to explain his stated false dichotomies of this debate. And it’s not a “civil war” either, that’s just an emotional plea to stop all the fighting and sing Kumbayaa again. It’s a debate.

Anyway, this isn’t about “idealism” vs “pragmatism.” This is about whether this country’s ruling elites are willing, even for one minute, to grapple with the greatest crises the world has ever seen. Thus far, the answer is a resounding, “NO! Now go away, little people!”

Global Warming. Peak Oil. Financial Crisis. Colonial warfare all over the world. Depression. Mass unemployment. The shittiest “healthcare” in the industrial world, ranking behind the Czech Republic. Rampant contempt for human rights and democracy itself. This government simply is not interested in doing anything that doesn’t make all these things even worse than they are now.

It’s not that progressives aren’t getting everything they want. It’s that we’re all going in the wrong direction, even after handing over two successive electoral cycles, giving Dems the majority.

I’m with you. If we were seeing any progress at all, I wouldn’t be as shrill as I usually am. Instead I see disaster. That’s not a failure of idealism. It’s a failure in governance.


“A person buying ordinary products in a supermarket is in touch with his deepest emotions.” — John Kenneth Galbraith


[ Parent ]  
I think you've lost sight of the electorate we actually have. (4.00 / 1)
basically 45% would vote Democratic no matter what, and 45% would vote Republican, no matter what.

So we’re left with 10% who want convincing.  And in fact, they want “incremental change”–they are afraid of too much change, too fast.

Yet, all they hear is the Right saying “change sucks” and the Left saying “incremental sucks.”  There is no external proponent for incremental change to help them see where their interests lie.

And just as the Right can’t see that all their talk of god, guns, abortion, war, etc. will never get them that 10%, the Left doesn’t see that aggressive progressivism will never get them either.

So, yes, fight for your issues very strongly, but at some point you have to decide that if “incremental” is all you’re going to get, you need to accept it.  AND MORE, as hard as it may be to do so, you need to promote it, not denigrate it, to that 10%–at least if you want to win more elections and get more incremental change in your direction.


 
Hey, Wait A Sec! (4.00 / 7)
Support for the public option was consistently 60% or higher, much more solid than support for the modified 1994 Heritage Foundation package that eventually was passed.

So how does that fit into the picture you paint?

And that doesn’t even begin to address the widespread anger at the Wall Street bailout.

Elite Democratic anti-populism is indeed an extreme minority position.  But don’t pretend it’s a necessary limit on possible progressive legislation.  The limit is one that the Democratic leadeship has chosen for itself.

And that doesn’t even begin to touch on all the things Obama has done that don’t require Congressional approval–such as increasing the level of off-shore leasing under Ken Salazaar.

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
People wanted the public option (0.00 / 0)
even while they opposed the bill that included it (House bill) and opposed any taxes that would create it.

Clean energy is popular too, carbon taxes are not. People like progressive policies, when they’re free and there is no sacrifice for them.

Our problem is that when we seek to establish these progressive policies, we can’t seem to sell the taxes or fees or sacrifices that require them. That’s where we get killed.  


[ Parent ]  
Not Really True (4.00 / 3)
The GSS has a long-standing series of questions about spending priorities, in which it includes the warning that spending is not free, and yet even self-identified extreme conservatives (just ~3% of all respondents) tend to say we’re spending too little, rather than too much on almost all domestic spending items.

Moral: One should not blame the alleged attitudes of citizens on the misbegotten “leadership” of the political classes.

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
Only the willfully blind still think Obama is a "progressive" in any policy sense (4.00 / 6)
Many progressives, including me, so wanted to have “change we can believe in” that we believed Obama actually meant most of the progressive things that he said in the course of the campaign in order to win the support of the Democratic base.

Eighteen months into the Obama Administration, it is clear that he never had any commitment to a single progressive policy position.  Like many politicians, he said whatever was convenient during the course of the campaign to obtain support, all the while hedging his language to allow himself the freedom to maneuver as broadly as possible (e.g., with regard to potential escalation in Afghanistan).

If Obama had wanted “change we [progressives] can believe in,” he would never have selected John Brennan as an intelligence adviser, Lawrence Summers as an economic adviser, Timothy Geitner as Treasury Secretary, or Ken Salazar as Secretary of Interior.  Even during his campaign (e.g., Brennan) he surrounded himself with the architects of failed policies.

If Obama had wanted “change we [progressives] can believe in,” he would never have chosen on Afghanistan to follow the policy advice of a Republican Secretary of Defense (Robert Gates) over the advice of Joe Biden and Ambassador Karl Eikenberry; he would never have have accepted the recommendation of Gates to promote General McChrystal – a betrayer of the public trust whose role in the tragic lies of the Bush administration and the Department of Defense about the death of Pat Tillman should have ended his career rather than been a stepping stone to promotion.

I could go on, but time is short.

The largest tragedy is that the progressive policy alternatives that Obama has ignored would almost certainly have been more popular with the public and perhaps would have made it much harder for the Tea Party to gain traction.


 
I suspect you're arguing with fewer people than you think. (4.00 / 2)
A significant portion of the Obama base vote is not so much willfully blind to Obama’s weaknesses (see John Stewart now vs. John Stewart a year ago) as they are not seeing a way out.  They may persist longer than we would in demanding that he “stay true to his vision”, but they see what’s going on.

Some of them may hold their nose and vote for him anyway, but that is progress, of a sort.

And the point of Bowers that I find of value is that it’s a waste of time trying to figure out what’s in Obama’s heart.  I DON’T CARE what’s in his heart.  I only care about what’s in my heart.  I don’t rule out (in fact, I expect) a tack to the left of some sort prior to the election, probably insincere.  Insincere or not, I will accept it as my due and hope that a sadder but wiser progressive population is less starry-eyed in the battles that come along.

Because I may sometimes hold my fire at Obama, or even throw out some faint praise for whatever good things he may have done, or defend him from absurd Republican attacks, does not mean that I am starry-eyed.  It just means that I am trying to hold onto the patch of political ground they’re trying to throw me off.  If I see a better patch I can jump to, I’m ready in a minute.  But it needs to be real.

sTiVo’s rule: Just because YOU “wouldn’t put it past ’em” doesn’t prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]  
The real divide is between (4.00 / 1)
those who lean left out of ideological conviction (mostly white males) and those who do so out of opposition to white male social power.

Many, like Obama, have no problem whatsoever with the status quo just as long as he has a seat at the table.

Fair enough.

Unfortunately, the status quo is on the verge of a Kondratieff Winter, thus conservatism is suicide.

In any event, let’s remember that when we elected Obama, it was a desperation move, like throwing a bucket of water on a raging house fire:

we knew it wouldn’t accomplish anything, but we did it anyway.


 
God You're An Idiot! (4.00 / 3)
Nothing new there.

But when you mix your idiocy with race, you verge on being a racist idiot.

Only white progressives are sophisticated enough to be ideological???

As usual, not one scintilla of evidence to support your frothing at the mouth.

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
points (0.00 / 0)
I had a lengthy reply where I realized I just argued with myself back and forth.  (I can be such a good liberal that way.)  It wasn’t very readable.

I’ll just recommend both Paul’s posts and leave it at that.


[ Parent ]  
It's True (0.00 / 0)
Liberals make much better conservative arguments than conservatives do.

Neo-liberals, though, are foolish enough to believe them.

How ’bout that self-financing Iraq War of liberation?!!!

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
The dividing line is how you perceive the Republican opposition (0.00 / 0)
is going to influence which “camp” you’re likely to be in.  The incrementalists are likely to believe that the G.O.P. can be reasoned with and are committed to the process, and at the end of the day, believe that politics are a game.

Several years ago, the great Paul Krugman, published a compilation of his early New York Times columns, which was entitled The Great Unraveling.  In the introduction, Krugman labels modern conservatism as a “revolutionary power” bent on nothing less than a radical transformation of American politics and society.  One, if they subscribe to this view of Conservatives, is more likely to be more critical of President Obama’s desire to constantly split the difference between core Democratic principles and the G.O.P. positions.

The choice is up to you


 
I don't think that's it at all (0.00 / 0)
and it may even be the reverse in some way.

I don’t think either side of this debate here is under any illusion that the current crop of Republicans can be reasoned with.  It drives us both crazy that Obama keeps trying for bipartisanship with a GOP that has steadily moved to the right, dragging the middle with it and leaving the Dems is a steady retreat.

The reason why I say it may even be the reverse is that in my experience there are many who are so angry at the betrayals of Obama that they’ve lost interest in going after even the vilest of Republicans.  But to my way of thinking if I can help take down a Ben Nelson, or help take down a Michelle Bachmann, either way I’m doing progressivism a service.

sTiVo’s rule: Just because YOU “wouldn’t put it past ’em” doesn’t prove that THEY did it.


[ Parent ]  
Pluralists vs. Technocrats (0.00 / 0)
Mike Lux had a fantastic post several months back, Pluralists vs. Technocrats.

There is an important divide running through the middle of Democratic policymaking that gets very little attention, but may be as important as the much more well-discussed ideological, generational or regional divides. It is a battle between views I would describe as pluralist versus technocratic. …

Democratic pluralists believe that you can’t just solve problems only with regulations, because industries that are too big and too politically powerful (the two usually go together) will find ways through clever lawyers and sheer market power around those regulations or, most likely, will just chip away at them year by tear through their political strength. That’s why you need to find very significant checks on the power of these big businesses.

Technocrats, on the other hand, believe that they have the ability to write strong enough regulations or clever enough formulas to shift the marketplace away from doing unhealthy things. If you have been following the debates about health care and banking issues, you probably know where I am headed with this.

This was one of those posts that fundamentally changed the way I thought about politics.  Mike pointed out something that was blindly obvious the moment I read it, but had never thought of before that point.

I’m a technocrat by nature, so I’d make that side sound a bit better than Mike does and make the other side sound a bit worse.  Technocrats believe you can solve problems by actually solving them, pluralists believe if you change the power relationships the problems will solve themselves.

I’m still not a pure pluralist, but I agree they’ve got a damn good point.


 
I Don't Think That's Quite Fair (4.00 / 1)
Technocrats believe you can solve problems by actually solving them, pluralists believe if you change the power relationships the problems will solve themselves.

I can’t say I’ve ever met anyone who thinks the problems will solve themselves.  But plenty of folks think the problems will at least becme solvable.

Ironically, this is not some newfangled radical insight.  This is something that liberalism has recognized for hundreds of years.  It’s just that radicals have always had a more realistic sense of how vast the power imbalances are.

But liberalism has always embodied the basic idea that power must be restrained in order for reason to guide us toward the common good.  Hence the need for individual rights, separation of powers, and the principles of open and transparent government that derives its just power from the informed consent of the governed.  

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


[ Parent ]  
Insight (0.00 / 0)
I realize it is not a new insight.  The need for balance and distribution of power is something I’ve always believed as well.  But I never thought of it in quite the terms Mike laid out.

The assumption of many (most?) on this site that power distribution is the overwhelmingly most important goal of progressivism is so strong, I had a hard time understanding many arguments.  Now I get it.  Sometimes I agree and sometimes (like in health care cost reductions) I do not, but at least I understand what y’all are saying.

It is hard to see your own assumptions and even harder to see others’.


[ Parent ]  
Same As It Ever Was (0.00 / 0)
The most important realizations are not new, but newly appreciated.

“You know what they say — those of us who fail history… doomed to repeat it in summer school.” — Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]  
Me: 2nd Camp + Wrinkle (0.00 / 0)
Couldn’t agree with you more, Chris. I was thinking the very same things when I read that article yesterday!

I’m also tired of those amongst us who are active defending themselves when it’s mentioned that we all can and should be doing more; the “not I!” objection. For me, it’s not only about the doing it better part that you’re talking about, but also taking collective responsibility for the political climate we currently live in and doing something to change it.

Primarily, I’m talking about ceasing to perpetuate divisive “us against them” stuff; because what it ultimately comes down to is that it breeds cynicism, apathy, and lack of participation in our democracy. Worse yet, we’re becoming so accustomed to divisiveness that it has been playing itself out on smaller and smaller levels, most recently amongst the Left – and this is a false choice. Personally, I simply consider my critiques of Obama to be even-handed, as I like to hold ALL representatives to the same standard; and I will give credit when due to ANY representative, regardless of party too. The truth is, the “Us vs. Them” is actually “The People’s Interests vs. Special Interests” – but it seems we’re too busy dividing amongst ourselves to see the big picture anymore.    

We the People…participating in our democracy again!


 




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