Don't Think of A Sick Child-Lakoff Connects On Health Care

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sat Oct 20, 2007 at 16:16


First, a powerful piece of framing, brought to you from Rockridge Institute:

[Framing explained here]

As noted in the diary, "Labor & Lakoff: Fighting for Single-Payer" by California Nurses Shum, George Lakoff and the Rockridge Institute have weighed in heavily on the health care debate . An article Lakoff co-authored with Glenn W. Smith (who posts occasionally at OpenLeft) at Salon, "Don't think of a sick child" begins thus:

George W. Bush doesn't want you to think of a sick child. Not Graeme Frost. Not Gemma Frost. Not Bethany Wilkerson. Not any of the real children affected.

He wants you straining your eyes on the fine print of policies, puzzling over the nuances of coverage -- whether you can afford premiums for basic, catastrophic, comprehensive or limited health insurance. Last week on "Real Time With Bill Maher," even Tucker Carlson kind of got it right, saying, "No one child is a metaphor -- he's a kid!" That's the point. They're all kids, each one, one by one. The question is, do you care?

The actuaries don't. And can't. Health insurance companies make their money by denying care. They maximize profit by authorizing as little care as they can get away with. That's what all those administrative costs -- as high as 30 percent -- and all that paperwork are mostly about. It takes a lot of people to justify denying care.

It's the opposite of the way the market is supposed to work: Make more money by delivering more product. The health insurance industry makes more money by delivering less product. It maximizes profits by minimizing care.

The logic here is as simple as it is compelling: by its very nature, for-profit health care cannot solve our national health care problem.  Which, of course, is why the logic must be suppressed. And in a short paper, ""The Logic of the Health Care Debate" [PDF], Lakoff and co-authors Eric Haas, Glenn W. Smith and Scott Parkinson explain precisely how this is done--by the "third way" mechanism of neo-liberalism, sidelining the liberal argument for single-payer, so that it never gets made.

In this paper Lakoff explains the logic of the conservative view-based on a commodity view of health care, and the notion of individual responsibility, the liberal/progressive view, based on "the morality of empathy and responsibility, for oneself and others," and the neo-liberal view, which shares the liberal foundations in terms of proper ends, but is heavily invested in a rationalist approach that accepts the market as a means, and in the process loses sight of the means.  Extended excerpts and discussion on the flip.

Paul Rosenberg :: Don't Think of A Sick Child-Lakoff Connects On Health Care
A Tale of Three Logics

Ever since his work in Moral Politics (1996), Lakoff has been writing in terms of two basic cognitive models of political thought-the conservative Strict Father and the liberal Nurturant Parent.  He has always written in terms of numerous variants within the two, as well as mixtures (people who use one model in some areas of life, and the other model in others), but this paper on health care represents the farthest he has ever gone toward breaking with the two-model approach.  Technically, this paper doesn't break with that approach, in fact it validates a distinction between ends and means that he originally made in Moral Politics.  But for all practical purposes, he presents us with three co-equally coherent models.

First, is the conservative approach to health care, which he introduces thus:

The Conservative Mode of Thought

In the conservative mode of thought, securing health insurance is a matter of individual responsibility. In this view, health care is a commodity that should be bought and sold through insurance policies in the market. If someone wants a commodity, they should work hard to afford it. In a free market economy - given that America is a land of opportunity - they will be able to do so. Anyone without health insurance for himself or his family just isn't working hard enough and doesn't deserve it. It's just like plasma TVs; if you want one, work hard to afford one. Otherwise, you won't get it, because you haven't worked hard enough, and you don't deserve it.9

From the principle of individual responsibility, it follows that employers should never be forced to provide health insurance for their employees. They might choose freely to do so in order to attract talent, but that should be their free choice.

Within the conservative mode of thought, the market is both natural and moral. Natural in that people instinctively seek their own profit and moral in that those who are most disciplined will be most likely to prosper. Market outcomes are therefore always moral and most practical, since the market optimizes the fair and efficient distribution of goods and services. Government interference comprises both the efficiency and morality of market processes.

Lakoff's discussion of the liberal/progressive approach is shorter, and is presented here in full:

The Progressive Mode of Thought

The progressive mode of thought begins with progressive morality - the morality of empathy and responsibility, for oneself and others. Others, because life is interdependent; "no man is an island." Translated into policy, that moral view defines two roles for government: protection and empowerment. Protection includes not only military, police, and fire protection, but also disaster assistance, public health, food safety, social security, and so on. The empowerment function of government makes business possible. It also makes it possible for individuals to pursue fulfilling lives. Government empowerment includes the development and maintenance of public roads and bridges, the internet and satellite communications, public education, the banking system, the stock market, and the courts. No business can thrive without government contributions in these areas.18

Progressive views on health care flow from this understanding of the moral mission of government. Empathy requires taking the viewpoint of the person cared for, the health care recipient as well as their family and community. From a policy perspective, health care is a matter primarily of protection, but also of empowerment. Putting these together, we get progressive requirements for a health care system:


  • Everyone should have access to comprehensive, quality health care (follows from empathy).
  • No one should be denied care for the sake of private profit (follows from empathy and protection).
  • You can choose your own doctor (follows from empathy).
  • Promotion of health and well-being, focusing on preventive care (follows from individual responsibility).
  • Costs should be progressive, that is, readily affordable to everyone, with higher costs borne by those better able to pay (follows from empathy).
  • Access should be extremely easy, with no specific roadblocks (follows from responsibility).
  • Administration should be simple and cheap (follows from empathy and responsibility).
  • Interactions should be minimally bureaucratic and maximally human (follows from empathy and responsibility).
  • Payments should be adequate for doctors, nurses, and other health care workers. Conditions of their employment should be reasonable (follows from empathy).
  • When people are harmed by either the unsafe practices or negligence of health care providers, the redress should be left to the courts - with no arbitrary caps on compensatory payments (follows from protection).

Finally, as indicated above, the neo-liberal approach is a hybrid, but one justified with it's own central logic:

The Neoliberal Mode of Thought

The health care system of the next decades may be determined by a mode of thought that is neither purely progressive nor conservative, but neoliberal. What we term "neoliberal" thought shares progressive values and the ethic of care. At the same time, it has an Enlightenment-based faith in universal rationality as logical, unemotional, and serving human interests. To argue on the basis of care would be emotional and hence irrational and weak. To argue on the basis of interests is seen as rational and strong. The neoliberal strategy is to serve the ethics of care by serving the economic and other material interests of demographic groups.

In neoliberal thought there is the belief that markets can be effectively regulated to serve those interests, which leads to recommendations for technocratic changes to existing markets as one means to achieve progressive ends. Under the domestic version of neoliberal economics, many progressive moral goals can be achieved through private enterprise as an efficient means to moral ends.

Though conservatism sees the market itself as defining moral ends, neoliberalism shares with conservatism the idea that the market can be efficient and serve moral ends. This is why neoliberal thought has no problem with health care solutions that involve profit-maximizing private insurance companies.

The neoliberal emphasis on "systems" often causes a loss of focus upon the progressive morality that lies beneath their political and policy solutions. Specific references to progressive values disappear from their messages. So do references to the government functions of protection and empowerment. Neoliberals may begin with the morality of empathy and responsibility for oneself and others, but their faith and focus soon shifts to the abstract, to complicated systems and intricate public/private solutions. Empathy, the moral force that holds together our democracy and the engine of community, is reduced to sentimentality and shunted aside.

It's worth noting that this rationalist devaluation of empathy in the Western tradition goes much deeper than the Enlightenment, which actually had a very significant strain of thought-dominant in the Scottish Enlightenment-that did not devalue empathy or what it called the "moral sentiments" in general.  The mistaken bifrucation of reason and emotion in the Western tradition is one of the most debilitating myths that is especially pernicious for the advancement of progressive politics.

Lakoff continues, detailing some of the dangers inherent in the neo-liberal approach:

Neoliberal thinking can lead to a dangerous trap. We call it the Surrender-in-Advance Trap. With an exaggerated emphasis on system-based solutions, neoliberal thought may lead one to surrender in advance the moral view that drives an initiative in the first place. Those who pragmatically focus on appeasing what they assume will be unavoidable political opposition to their proposals also run the risk of moral surrender. For instance, assuming strong, possibly insurmountable, conservative resistance to government-based health care solutions, they will embrace profitmaximizing insurance solutions because they believe that 1) political opposition can be muted; and 2) the "free" market, properly regulated, can serve moral purposes, such as providing health care for all Americans. Proponents of these neoliberal solutions often overlook the fact that the very source of the health care crisis is the structure of insurance: the less care they authorize the more profit they make, and profits come first and are maximized.

But people using a neoliberal mode of thought do not view a market-driven, profitmaximizing approach as a surrender of any kind. They deeply believe that progressive moral principles can be served through neoliberal methods and forms of argument. We want to stress, however, that the consequence is dire whatever the motivation. The failure to articulate a clear progressive morality in favor of more technocratic solutions to profit-maximizing markets puts the progressive cause at a disadvantage on health care and other policy issues as well. It doesn't matter whether one is simply trying to avoid conservative and insurance company opposition or whether one truly believes in one's heart that the market will cure us. The progressive moral basis for providing health care for all-empathy and responsibility, protection and empowerment-is not stated. As a result, Americans don't get to hear the progressive moral basis for extending health care to all Americans, and they don't get to decide whether they agree with that moral premise. Americans only hear the conservative moral view. That moves them in a conservative direction, not only on this issue, but on all issues.

There is an additional danger. As a strategy, surrender-in-advance puts  advocates in the weak position of starting negotiations by going half way or more toward what the other sides want. No one would think of taking that approach when bargaining in the marketplace.

The Arguments Summarized

Next Lakoff briefly summarized the three arguments.  First, the conservative argument:

The conservative argument is straightforward, and it is based on the same ideas conservatives have been pounding into the public mind for three to four decades. Government is unreliable, inefficient, and raises your taxes. It can't solve the problem and it costs too much when it tries. It is also immoral because government handouts make people dependent and take away their incentive to work.

Private enterprise is both effective and moral, and strengthening markets generates wealth for the country as a whole. Therefore, there should be private health accounts with private insurance plans and no constraints on the authorization or provision of health care or prescription drugs. Further, there should be caps on lawsuits that might threaten the income of profit-maximizing health care authorizers.

Then, the liberal/progresive argument:

The progressive argument is straightforward and based on progressive views of morality and government: the values of empathy and responsibility, and the view that health care is a matter of fundamental protection - like the army or the police.  Therefore, everyone deserves health care, and it is the moral responsibility of our government to ensure that it is available to all of us, its citizens. Profit should never interfere with the delivery of health care. And since health insurance profits are based on the denial of care, health care should not be a matter of profit-maximizing insurance. This progressive worldview tilts progressives toward single-payer or medicare-for-all plans. The problem for progressives is they have not been getting their moral perspective or their view of health care as government protection out in public effectively - even though polls suggest that a majority of the public seems to already agree with their position.

Then he summarizes how the neo-liberal argument-although agreeing with the liberal/progressive argument on the basics-ends up colluding with the conservative argument:

The sticky part of the health care debate occurs when neoliberals accept certain modified versions of profit-maximizing insurance programs with technocratic fixes of the sort described above, and then fail to announce (and repeat) the progressive moral basis of their goals, even though they implicitly agree with them. In so doing, they avoid addressing the fundamental tension between the progressive view that government has a moral mission to provide for the security, including the health security, of all its people and our current profit-maximizing health care system which works only by denying care to over 100 million Americans. Instead, neoliberals focus on rational arguments: how their plans maximize material interests of the lower and middle classes. In the end, neoliberals and conservatives are roughly in the same framing ballpark - maximizing material interests of some group-with progressives left in the bleachers.

As a result, the American people will not be given any real choice between the progressive and conservative moral positions. We will never know if those polls were right, if Americans indeed prefer a progressive alternative. The surrender in advance by the neoliberals means that any "compromise" will start with a capitulation to fundamental conservative values, and will be tilted even more strongly in a conservative direction as negotiations proceed.

What Is To Be Done

Finally, Lakoff concludes with a section on what we, as progressives can and should do:

The most important lesson for progressives is to keep their fundamental moral view front and center in their politics, in their policy deliberations, and in their hearts. Progressive morality is the morality of empathy and responsibility for oneself and others. These moral premises assign to government two roles: protection and empowerment. In the case at hand, we find that our moral foundations require us to recognize our responsibility to our own health and the health of others. Empathy allows us to recognize this responsibility to work together to protect our health and to act upon it. Democratic government is nothing more than an institution of our own making. It is under our control, an institution we charge with the mission of protection and empowerment. Health care security, from the progressive moral stance, becomes a key function of government.

The best way to proceed is to keep what we care the most about at the center of the discussion of health care security. What we care the most about is the actual health and well-being of flesh-and-blood people. Keeping this care in our hearts does not mean that temporary compromises will not be necessary. It means only that we don't begin with compromise.

Every part of our health care system should serve this purpose-health care security for all Americans-first. It comes before private corporate profits. It comes before the political fates of particular candidates or officeholders. Every plan we might concoct or discuss should be measured against this simple standard: does this improve the health care security of all our fellow citizens in concrete ways? Perhaps the most important word in that sentence is "all." System tinkering-eliminating pre-existing condition exclusions, adding mandatory coverage for this or that ailment, subsidizing (substandard) health care for the poor-will make a difference for many, but not for all. It will leave many more people with the kind of dissatisfaction that those with present health insurance have rightly been complaining about. Tinkering like that is more concerned with saving a system that has already failed than it is with the health of a society, indeed, with saving lives.

Note that there's a great deal of flexibility possible within the bounds of what Lakoff advises.  That's the nature of thinking in terms of fundamental values and the conceptual systems that spring from them.  The more we absorb these fundamental values, attitdudes, and the related conceptual frameworks, the more freely we will be able to improvise as needed without betraying our basic commitments.

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Speaking Of Framing (0.00 / 0)
Given that Pelosi is taking flack around here today perhaps we should remember the fine framing she did the other day when Bush vetoed S-Chip:

"Today the President had an opportunity to sign a bipartisan bill that will bring health care to 10 million children in families struggling to make ends meet.  Instead, President Bush used his cruel veto pen to say 'I forbid 10 million children from getting the health benefits they deserve.'

I think Lakoff would approve of that framing that absolutely takes away Bush's desire for people to not think of sick children.

I especially like the adjectives "cruel" and "forbid" in describing Bush's veto pen. Very effective framing.

She went on to say:

"Despite the President's veto, we will continue to work with a bipartisan majority in Congress and 43 governors from across the country to increase support for SCHIP in the House so we can override the veto and provide 10 million children the health coverage they need and deserve.

"The President chose to block a bill with strong bipartisan consensus-which has so much potential for good-to force Congress to mount a veto override effort.  We remain committed to making SCHIP into law-with or without the President's support."

Not too shabby.

http://www.speaker.g...


I Agree, But... (0.00 / 0)
skeptic06 was correct:

The obvious thing for a leadership to do when one of their guys sounds off like Stark is

  * to draw attention to the policy substance that drives the passion animating his statement; and

  * to affirm the substance of his point in more sober words.

The rest of that comment may be debatable.  The part just quoted, however, simply is not.  That's just what you do. Period. End of paragraph.

John McCain: US economic woes 'psychological'


[ Parent ]
I agree (0.00 / 0)
that those two steps are good ones to address matters like this.

However Stark has a long history of putting other people in a bad position wth his words. As I said in another post he won't win any praise from guys like Lakoff with his lack of forethought for the consequences his words may bring. After a while anyone who has to deal with a loose cannon grows tired of them putting one in a position that they didn't choose.

Consider Pelosi's actual statement which hasn't been posted here I don't thin nor at Digby's whose comments were referenced earlier today:

"Yesterday's debate in the House to override the President's veto of bipartisan legislation to cover 10 million children was heated on both sides.  While Members of Congress are passionate about their views, what Congressman Stark said during the debate was inappropriate and distracted from the seriousness of the subject at hand - providing health care for America's children."

Now that is exactly what skeptic06 suggested but it is close. Pelosi did mention the passion and she did draw attention to the policy substance. The only thing she did not do was more sober words for him about his Iraq comment. Now to her credit she did point out that his comments "distracted from the seriousness of the subject at hand - providing health care for America's children". You can't argue with that because as they did. They gave the gop a way to distract the public from the issue of discussion which was children's healtcare. You can google and see major newspaper editorials negative articles from all over the nation. That's not good.

And remember Stark issued a mea culpa by admitting that he should have stayed on topic. So if he agrees that he may have crossed the line how can you fault Pelosi from doing the same? She didn't really chastise him as is being depicted here today. She acknowledged his passion but said his comment was a distraction from the real debate. It was.

Let's face it - saying publicly that Bush found amusement from our soldiers getting there heads blown off was sadly a Coulteresque type statement. That many posters here can't see that is disturbing to me.


[ Parent ]
sorry for so many typos (0.00 / 0)
I'm watching two football games at the same time as I type this. :)

[ Parent ]
You & Pelosi Are BOTH Singing The Rightwinger's Tune! (4.00 / 1)
Now to her credit she did point out that his comments "distracted from the seriousness of the subject at hand - providing health care for America's children". You can't argue with that because as they did. They gave the gop a way to distract the public from the issue of discussion which was children's healtcare. You can google and see major newspaper editorials negative articles from all over the nation. That's not good.

Stark made a connection between between GOP callous indifference on one issue--SCHIP--and their callous indifference on another issue--the Iraq War.  That was in no way a distraction from the seriousness of the subject at hand.  It was, in fact, a highly germane comparison to make.  In fact, it was precisely because it so germane that the Republicans went ballistic.

As they say down South: "A stuck pig squeals."

Naturally, the rightwing jumped on Stark to distract attention from the truth of what he said.  What else were they going to do?  Ollie North called it scurrilous when he and his gang were accused of their crimes, too.  This is the oldest trick in the GOP playbook.

But that's no reason for you and Nancy Pelosi to buy into their crap.

You're the problem.  And so is Nancy Pelosi.  Not Pete Stark.

Let's face it - saying publicly that Bush found amusement from our soldiers getting there heads blown off was sadly a Coulteresque type statement. That many posters here can't see that is disturbing to me.

Except, of course, that Stark was right, and Coulter is wrong.  We know that Bush is a sadist, who finds humor in the suffering of others.  Most dramatically, of course, we know this (from wikipedia):

Karla Tucker and George W. Bush

Under state law, Texas governors do not have the power to commute death penalty sentences, only to briefly postpone an execution pending further review by the Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles (most members of which are appointed by the governor - including the chairman, who according to the Texas Administrative Code serves "at the pleasure of the governor" (RULE §141.1)). Before Tucker was executed, there were pleas for clemency from Waly Bacre Ndiaye, the United Nations commissioner on summary and arbitrary executions, the World Council of Churches, Pope John Paul II, and Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi, among other world figures. Unusual pleas came from conservative American political figures such as Newt Gingrich and Pat Robertson, interceding on her behalf. Tucker did not ask for a pardon, only commutation of her death sentence to life in prison. Huntsville Prison's warden testified that she was a model prisoner and that, after 14 years on death row, she likely had been reformed. Despite these pleas, Bush signed her death warrant. In 1999, during the 2000 Republican Presidential primary race, conservative commentator Tucker Carlson interviewed Bush for Talk Magazine (September 1999, p. 106). Excerpt from this interview is quoted below:

    In the weeks before the execution, Bush says, a number of protesters came to Austin to demand clemency for Karla Faye Tucker. "Did you meet with any of them?" I ask. Bush whips around and stares at me. "No, I didn't meet with any of them", he snaps, as though I've just asked the dumbest, most offensive question ever posed. "I didn't meet with Larry King either when he came down for it. I watched his interview with Tucker, though. He asked her real difficult questions like, 'What would you say to Governor Bush?'" "What was her answer?" I wonder. "'Please,'" Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, "'don't kill me.'" I must look shocked - ridiculing the pleas of a condemned prisoner who has since been executed seems odd and cruel - because he immediately stops smirking.


John McCain: US economic woes 'psychological'

[ Parent ]
Yeah Right! (0.00 / 0)
I'm the problem!!! LOL.

Sorry Bubu but Stark is the one who made the Coulteresque comment about Bush, not me. Without that comment this would not even be a negative story. Quit making excuses for a dumb and unnecessary remark. He could have connected the disparity of money between S-Chip and Iraq very effectively as others have been doing without that stupid comment. And was up to that point.

If you view the following video of his speech you can see for yourself that the comment added nothing to the speech and by leaving that comment out it would have been a fine speech that made it's point without controversy.

http://www.youtube.c...

I swear every time I read a post that starts out by saying I am buying into righty talking points I know that post is not going to make much of an argument. Suggesting that a fellow progressive is a righty is the action of a desperate person with no real argument IMO.

Your Karla Tucker citation is well known. And it certainly can be talked about some more. But to cite that as justification for what someone says in the chamber in a speech is silly. The chamber is nowhere for a Dem to be saying such things and if you think it is proper then you are the problem not me. I don't want our Reps to act or talk like righty wingnuts. Apparently you and others do. In case you forgot it is that kind of absurd theatrics that helped boot the gop out in 2006. You may want the party to be like Tom De Lay  but most people on our side don't.

Watch the video and then tell me that comment by Stark was necessary. You won't be able to say it was.


[ Parent ]
The need for strong cleanup hitters (0.00 / 0)
I think, to some extent, you're arguing past each other.  I don't think the issue is whether Stark should have phrased a sentence or two differently, or even whether the same applies to the Pelosi statement referenced here.  I don't agree with Paul that progressivesouls "is the problem," though I do agree that, to some extent, Pelosi is.  I think Paul's comment below from a prior thread on this topic gets to the point without pointing fingers at anyone in particular:

Pete Starks isn't the problem.  He's a great lead-off hitter.  The problem is, we don't seem to have anyone who knows how to hit cleanup.

The fact that Stark's comments are followed by a shift in focus from Bush to Stark as "the problem" is itself "the problem."  I think this highlights a mix of deficiencies and dynamics that need to be addressed. 

Paul's comment about the need for strong "cleanup" hitters that can follow Stark's comments speaks to one of the most important requirements for shifting these dynamics.  Without  very strong and focused follow-up to Stark's comments, we end up playing defense and leaving runners on base way too often. It's as if Stark hits a double and our follow-up hitters end up arguing with Republicans, ourselves and the media about whether he should have made it to third.  The overriding focus needs instead to be how to bring the run home and to get more runners on base.  That's when the momentum shifts in a baseball game, and also in the political media game.

The mainstream media is part of the problem, of course, but that only underscores why strong cleanup hitters who keep their eyes on the ball and have strong follow-through are so important.  It may take relatively rare (or maybe not so rare) talent, but it's what's needed to win games.


[ Parent ]
We Shouldn't Need (0.00 / 1)
cleanup hitters. That's the bottomline. Mothers cleanup for their children's mistakes. Pelosi is not Stark's mother. In fact he is older than her and as such should know better.

The effort to shift Stark's mistake onto Pelosi is laughable at best. Quit support the stupidity of Stark's remark. We are not and should not act like the party of Tom DeLay.


[ Parent ]
Stark Didn't Make A Mistake (4.00 / 1)
Since you utterly refuse to rise to level of my discussion, I will sink to the level of yours.

To wit:

Pelosi's original mistake was squashing all talk of impeachment, taking it off the table.

If you start off neutering yourself even before taking office, it's not really a big surprise when you don't win jack shit.

If Pelosi had simply allowed the ongoing continuous hammering of Bush that full-bore, non-stop investigations would have produced, then veto over-rides would have been a snap, and Pete Stark would have never had to say "boo!"

John McCain: US economic woes 'psychological'


[ Parent ]
Thank You (0.00 / 1)
In my first post about this subject I suggested that for many people this was more about Pelosi's past perceived sins. Your post certainly proves that to be the case as you say virtually nothing about my comments on Stark but instead launch into a short semi-tirade that is not related at all about what Stark said or about S-Chip but is solely about your anger with Pelosi. I loath common blog expressions but in this case I can't resist...

Thanks for making my point.

Additionally I want to comment on your remark made to me:

Since you utterly refuse to rise to level of my discussion, I will sink to the level of yours.

What's up with that? You don't know me so why do you feel you are so superior to me? I assure you that you are not. I am the one acting like an adult here and holding another adult, Stark, responsible for his words. You on the other hand are trying to use his indiscretion as a reason to bash someone else. I don't think there is any question who is on the higher level here - seeing how you brought it up.

I have noticed in some of your other posts that you do this same thing to other people. You call them idiots and other names and generally descend into trying to cause a flame war when they disagree with you. even though they are just disagreeing and not making it personal. This is a place for exchanging ideas and opinions and often we don't all always agree. But just because one does not agree with you is no reason to start with the put-downs.


[ Parent ]
You Ignored My Most Important Point (4.00 / 1)
To wit:

Since you utterly refuse to rise to level of my discussion, I will sink to the level of yours.

Over the past several weeks, I've laid out a comprehensive theoretical framework for examining the why Democrats are so good at policy and so horrid at politics, while Republicans are precisely the reverse.  It just so happens that this specific event serves to illustrate some of the main points I have been making, none of which you have responded to.

But you are all about troll-like endless repetition of your demonizing points.  This is an excellent example of how the conservatives manage to dominate political debate, despite having nothing whatsoever to say.

Thanks for making my point.

John McCain: US economic woes 'psychological'


[ Parent ]
Enough Already (0.00 / 1)
I blockedquoted your comment you claim I didn't respond to and you know I responded to it. Your comment was pure name calling.

Go Cheney yourself dude. You are living in some weird fantasy land. I'm done with the subject of Stark/Pelosi. I made my point and you ignore them with a smoke and mirror arguments.

No wonder you like Stark - you are a name-caller and he is your DeLay. Sorry, but you just want to be like the Right. You admire the Coulter's and wish we had some of our own. Well it is my party too and I'll have a say about that.

I'm sure there is more we agree on than disagree on and this just happens to be one of the things we disagree on. But it is no reason to show your dark side by name-calling.

Hate on.


[ Parent ]
So you're not content to be a concern troll (0.00 / 0)
and now just want to be a regular old troll. How disappointing.

And I just love how you go through classic troll "comebacks":

"Go fuck yourself"

"You're living in a fantasy world"

"I'm done with you"

"You're a Republican"

"It's my opinion and I have a right to have one"

"You're just mean"

"Blah blah blah"

Got any more troll cliches? With every line, you're proving Paul's points.

And while Paul--like any dedicated blogger and progressive--does get heated at times (especially when confronted by serial idiocy and cluelessness)--his analyses are always wellthought out and expressed, whether or not one actually agrees with them. But I'm totally with him on this--in politics, you either fight, or die. It might not always be pretty, but I'll take a Pete Stark over 20 Brian Bairds any day.


[ Parent ]
The role of cleanup hitters (4.00 / 2)
I have to admit I haven't been a baseball fan since I was a kid, but my meaning of "cleanup" hitter is to bring the runners that succeeded in getting on base home, NOT cleaning up a mess, as you suggest.

That we are focusing on what you call "Stark's mistake" is the problem, not the few words he said that you and others find offensive.  And, as I said, Pelosi's role in the problem is not so much of function of how she responded to Stark's comments (also a distraction from the key issue in this particularly instance), but her ongoing role as spokesperson and institutional leader in the House.  And my critique is not so much personally with her, but with the overall institutional and communication dynamics, including interactions with the mass media, which is an important part of the political system.

I watched what I think is the offending segment of Stark's comments, where he mentions soldiers getting killed for Bush's amusement, or something like that.  In my opinion this was a poor choice of words, but only marginally so.  But, again, that's not the point.  When we make it the point, Bush gets another free pass, the Dems appear to be (and maybe are) in disarray, the media has its "distraction from substance" issue to obsessively chew on, and the pathology that is today's American politics continues. 

Among other things, what Paul and I are calling "cleanup hitters" are communicators/leaders that have both the intent and skill to successfully keep the communication focused on the real issue, which is Bush's policies and how they conflict with the desires and welfare of the American people. 

From Wikipedia: "Cleanup hitters often have the most power on the team and are typically the team's best all-around hitter; their job is to "clean up the bases"

When I think of this role, I often think of a few interviews with Wes Clark on Fox News, back several years ago.  The interviewers (one was Hannity, as I recall) tried to push Clark into a defensive posture by trying to shift the subject away from reality and substance, as is the practice most notably at Fox and also in cable news in general.  Clark repeatedly held his ground, then eventually had to "talk over" the other person's relentless jabbering, and to do so with force, clarity and an "I'm not going to let you get away with this BS attitude" that was strong but also not condescending or defensive.  Dealing with Fox represents one extreme of what cleanup hitters have to do, of course.  But it does seem to be part of the required skillset.

Considering the issue more broadly, we need a more effective institutional and media infrastructure that can identify, groom, utilize and "back up" strong cleanup hitters.  The netroots and the growth of Internet-based video tools and platforms are important elements of this.  The same is true of the kinds of communication-related insights and strategies provided by folks like Lakoff.

Again, the fact that we, the media and politicians are still arguing about Stark's comments is evidence that we still have a long way to go in building this capability.


[ Parent ]
The Issue here (0.00 / 1)
is Stark's comment about Bush. That is what is plastered all over every major news organization headlines and articles and being talked about on the airwaves. You obviously want to ignore that and how it is distracting from the important and ongoing message that the Democrats and even many republicans are trying to make but can't as long as Stark is the topic.

You can write and write about everything else you want to but none of it changes what is going on in the media well beyond the words you post here.


[ Parent ]
Stop Lying, Troll! (4.00 / 1)
Sorry, but this has gone on too long and gone too far.  There is no longer any way to regard you as anything but a troll.

Troll:

The Issue here

is Stark's comment about Bush. That is what is plastered all over every major news organization headlines and articles and being talked about on the airwaves.

Reality (from Google News Search):

Results 1 - 10 of about 8,779 for SCHIP

Results 1 - 10 of about 235 for SCHIP Stark

All over the media you watch, I daresay.

John McCain: US economic woes 'psychological'


[ Parent ]
Finally, An Honest Response! (4.00 / 1)
I knew you had it in you!

John McCain: US economic woes 'psychological'

[ Parent ]
Do you even know what a cleanup hitter is? (4.00 / 1)
It has nothing to do with cleaning up other's messes. Quite the opposite. Look it up.

[ Parent ]
Wow are you clueless (4.00 / 1)
The proper term being, of course, a concern troll:

The chamber is nowhere for a Dem to be saying such things and if you think it is proper then you are the problem not me. I don't want our Reps to act or talk like righty wingnuts. Apparently you and others do. In case you forgot it is that kind of absurd theatrics that helped boot the gop out in 2006. You may want the party to be like Tom De Lay  but most people on our side don't.

So the real problem with Dems is that they say such awful things in the house every month or two, when Pubs are saying them 10, 20, 30 times a day. But they're not the problem--the occasional Dem who loses his cool is the problem. And I'm not sure which is dumber, comparing Stark to DeLay, or claiming that the GOP lost in '06 due to bad manners.

Let's see, Stark says some mean (but undeniably true) things about Bush (and if you think they're not true then WOW), and DeLay, one of the meanest and most corrupt pols in recent years, breaks the law to get the Texas legislature to gerrymander its districts between censuses to gain yet more Pub seats--same thing! And the GOP runs the most corrupt and inept congress in history and rubber stamps the war and every other horrible Bush policy, but no, they lost the election because they were mean. Yeah, right, uhuh.

Please, whoever you are, take it somewhere else, because you clearly don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. If it was up to you, the mealy-mouthed apologetic politics of Daschle, Durbin, Reid and Pelosi would dominate the party forever, because, of course, in politics the most important thing is to be nice and polite, not win anything or get anything actually done. And we all know what wonders they've done for the party and country.

And what the hell is a "Bubu"? Don't you mean "Bubie"? Or perhaps "Booboo"? Whatever, who cares. I'm much more interested in the "rantings" of fighters and flamethrowers like Stark, Murtha, Ryan, Byrd and, hell, even Hagel when he's talking about the war, than in endlessly apologetic "Dems" who think that being nice is the very height of smart politics (you're clearly not from NYC). Kumbaya doesn't work and never has.


[ Parent ]
Battered Spouse Syndrome (4.00 / 1)
The battered spouse OBVIOUSLY should know better than to set the batterer off. The bruises and broken bones are proof of the battered spouse's sins. When will the battered spouse learn?

Barry


What happened to me? (0.00 / 0)
Hey, Paul, thanks for (as usual) careful and cogent comments.

I'm still searching for a first time to disagree with you about something.

I haven't posted here in a while, but don't forget me. I was after all, a co-author of the pieces you site and the writer of the spot you highlight.

In any case, thanks for your insights and comments. It's the Rockridge work that deservers attention. There will be more to come on this issue.


You're Right! I Apologize! (0.00 / 0)
I should have mentioned you, and I even intended to, but in the midst of multi-tasking I spaced it out.

I would really like to see Rockridge do a whole lot more video spots like this.  This is the kind of thing that others can readily learn from.  It would be fabulous to see two or three hundred House campaigns using variants of this video as heavy-rotation ads next year.

John McCain: US economic woes 'psychological'


[ Parent ]
Thanks,Paul (0.00 / 0)
You are right about the videos. That's exactly why we did it, and why I hope we can do more.

Thanks again for the compliments. Doncha worry about the biline. It's the Rockridge Institute that deserves and needs the credit for all it has done and is doing. I just wanted to needle you a little bit.


[ Parent ]
Well, Let Me Needle You Back (0.00 / 0)
now that I've corrected my text.

How 'bout posting here a little more often?

John McCain: US economic woes 'psychological'


[ Parent ]
Thanks! (0.00 / 0)
Glenn...just a note of thanks to you and Rockridge for the important work you do.

[ Parent ]
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