Oooops! (Was The Real Economy vs. Wall Street: 1913 To 2006--In One Chart)

by: Paul Rosenberg

Sun Oct 12, 2008 at 19:00



Haste does indeed make waste.  Finding myself with too little time to put together a more ambitious set of comparisons, I blindly grabbed the wrong pair of data sets, one in constant dollars, the other in current ones. So, I'm demoting my original misleading material below the fold and replacing it with this chart showing how the ratio between the Dow Jones Industrial Average and the GDP has changed over time:

While it does show--in comparison to the original chart, now below--is a similar increase in the Dow vs. GDP since 1980, what's striking is that this is part of a quite varied history preceeding it.  The most obvious conclusion that I can draw from this is that it's simply too simple or crude a comparison to get our hands around what's really going on, in part because there are now many other, more exotic markets in which big investors place their money, and in part because volume of funds matters as well as price.

I was, of course, aware of these facts, but it's often the case that added dimensions aren't necessary to get at important facts.  It's downright spooky, for example, that public opinion scholar James Stimson was able to identify underlying cycles that account for the vast majority of coherent cyclic change in American public opinion across dozens of issue areas.  This time, however, not so much.  So the question is: what should I be measuring???

Paul Rosenberg :: Oooops! (Was The Real Economy vs. Wall Street: 1913 To 2006--In One Chart)
A Call For Ideas

So, like I just said, how can I learn from my hasty mistake?  What should I be measuring???

I know, for example, that finance as a percentage of the economy has grown significantly, and that, of course, this feeds back into GDP.  What I want to get at is how much financial investment there is that is largely just speculative and non-productive--or even counterproductive, in the sense of diverting resources from productive purposes.

I know that there's not firm dividing line between productive and non-productive, as a certain amount of speculation must be involved to hedge against droughts, for example, and that such speculation serves a productive function, even though it's not the same as investing in direct improvements.  But I know whatever I do is going to be a rough measure.  I'm just concerned that it have a clear logic to it, and that it be something there's decent public data for.

So, any ideas?


Don't Do This At Home, Kids!

Here's the original, erroneous post, which people have responded to below:

Here's a simple picture of our economy since just before WWI.  Taking 1913=100, here's how the year-end Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) and the annual Gross Domestic Product (GDP) have grown over time.  If it looks like the economy changed radically in the early 1980s, well, that's because it did:

This chart should be both sobering and reassuring.  Sobering in that it tells us that the stock market gains of the past 20+ years really aren't sustainable, and probably weren't such a good thing in the first place.  Reassuring because maintaining the much steadier pace of GDP growth is probably both a more realistic and more important goal.

Of course there is considerable linkage between Wall Street and Main Street.  We're reminded of that 20 times a day of late.  But this chart reminds us of just how elastic that linkage can be.

As late as 1982, the Dow had only grown 13% more since 1913 than the GDP.  But from there on, the growth rates diverged wildly:

    YEAR DJIA GDP DJIA/GDP
    1980 1121 972 115.36
    1981 1173 996 117.76
    1982 1112 977 113.83
    1983 1497 1021 146.6
    1984 1482 1095 135.4
    1985 1671 1140 146.56
    1986 2255 1179 191.18
    1987 2863 1219 234.79
    1988 2592 1270 204.16
    1989 3155 1315 240.05
    1990 3369 1339 251.59
    1991 3684 1337 275.57
    1992 4131 1381 299.02
    1993 4430 1418 312.32
    1994 4771 1475 323.41
    1995 5652 1512 373.73
    1996 7223 1568 460.57
    1997 9359 1639 571.08
    1998 10848 1707 635.45
    1999 13162 1783 738.12
    2000 13501 1848 730.42
    2001 12815 1862 688.12
    2002 11604 1892 613.3
    2003 13147 1940 677.82
    2004 13562 2010 674.67
    2005 13479 2072 650.58
    2006 15675 2131 735.45

And note, the divergence more than doubled under Bill Clinton--from 299.02 in 1992, the year before he took office, to 730.42 the year he left.  Clinton was certainly better for the average American than Reagan or either of the Bushes, but he didn't do anything to alter the fundamental logic of the economy.  He just made things a little nicer on the side.

That era is over now.  Let's hope that Obama realizes that sooner, rather than later, and has both the strength and the wisdom to realize the need to lead in a new direction.

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Let's talk about the Data (w/ Greg Comlish) (0.00 / 0)
I'm skeptical that this data carries the implications you suggest that it carries.  

My major concern is that the DJIA used to be primarily an index of domestic stocks.  Now it's an index of internationals.  Meanwhile, the GDP still only includes domestic growth.  So we would expect to see the DJIA outgrow the GDP over this period of time because we're comparing apples and oranges.  


There May Be Some Added Divergence Because Of That (4.00 / 1)
But the S&P; 500 shows a similar growth pattern, growing an order of magnitude from the early 80s, to now, as you can see by eyeballing the logarithmic chart here.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
not apples and oranges (0.00 / 0)
more like different kinds of apples.  long argument, but basically, u.s. economics more or less can be compared to global finance capital because of the heavy overelap in interests and control.  reasoning: given that the u.s. is the sole global hegemon for this period (yes, including pre soviet collapse, which was a formalization of something that had already happened, imo) and that the corporations are deeply tied into that global system, i think it's reasonable to look at this chart and draw conclusions from it for the u.s. at minimum.

Would a chart of global gdp and the biggest 30 companies globally be more useful?  Probably.  But it would be addressing a different ideological question (fairness on a global level, not an american one).  Most American progressives that I've encountered seem averse to that question, so I think it's fair to use this chart for the purposes that Paul uses it for.  This is the closest you're going to come to that probably (though I suppose you could use S&P; 500 or something else, but would the results really look that different?  Would it avoid the overall problem that you posed?)

I think the conclusion would be the same - that finance capital and the rich (globally but since the rich in the u.s. are among the richest capitalists in the world) decoupled from the real econommy @1980 and have created an enormous disaster for the market as a result.  They have also created an enormous opportunity for the rest of us, should be choose to seize it.


[ Parent ]
no i tak ethat back - sorry (0.00 / 0)
should not hit the post button so quickly after cigarettes and tea :)  i think the point that the u.s. economy and the global economy are not equivalent is a useful one to raise.  I guess, as per the comment I made below, the key question for me is what is the significance of that.  I think it represents something material, and not simply a case of making an inapplicable comparison on the basis of different kinds of data.

[ Parent ]
subject (0.00 / 0)
what does the area between the djia line and the gdp line represent?  Is it the illusion of wealth and the ideological underpinning of neoliberalism? Or is it something more - e.g. the decoupling of finance capitalism from the u.s. economy?

It's Some Of Both (0.00 / 0)
They're sort of different sides of the same coin, I'd say.  Except it's probably not a coin, and it probably has several more sides to display,

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
Apples to Oranges (4.00 / 1)
You are doing GDP in constant dollars but the DJIA is related to the price of stocks which are in current dollars.

Adjust the DJIA for inflation -- that would give you something to compare (and I wouldn't be surprise if it also had a divergence, just not so much)  


Damn, You're Right! (0.00 / 0)
I starterd off trying to do something much more ambitious, but then noticed the clock ticking on my newspaper deadline, so I just grabbed one quick comparison, without thinking about the underlying bases (constant vs. current).

You're right that there's still a divergence since 1980, only not so sharp, but more significantly, the shape of the whole GDP growth history will change.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
And, So, (0.00 / 0)
As the first to point out my mistake, I'd welcome any suggestion about what I should be measuring, in light of what I've written in the revised diary above.

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
Itulip.com (4.00 / 1)
has been saying this for a long time.  See their "real Dow" chart.  I pulled out of the Market in October for a year (at least) because it just seemed too risky.  I lucked out to hit the peak, but even if I hadn't . . .  Too bad I don't have that much $.  Mr "black swan" said much the same thing.    

I still don't get why financial advisors don't tell people to get out of the market for a while when things get uncertain--it wasn't rocket science.  What goes up must come down.  Of course that would create more instability, etc.  But so what?  And yet NPR folks keep saying "stay the course, stay the course" ("keep on target, keep on target, Red Two . . . ")

So I moved from possibly making 10% to making 6% for certain.  4% to protect my principal/earnings, while still putting new money into the market.  Not playing the market, just getting out when the risk is clearly high, given that I don't have any expertise to make any more detailed judgments, for a defined amount of time and not otherwise paying much attention.  This seems just obvious.  Am I missing something?

Anyone?

http://educationaction.org


I believe you are conflatiing (0.00 / 0)
one number that is inflation adjusted with one that is not.

I can make no sense of your GDP numbers.  Nominal GDP was 2.7 Trillion in 1980, in 2006 it was 13.7 Trillion.

Your GDP numbers show a doubling, but in nominal terms (which the right comparison against the Dow) it was up more than 4X.  That is still more than the Dow went up - but either I am missing something (always possible) or you are comparing apples with oranges.  


Yes, I Saw That From TheMadBrewer Above (0.00 / 0)
Went back, and checked, and saw what I said above.  Hmmm. Haste makes waste. Who'd a thunk it.  And, I'm still behind on that print deadline I have.

So, any brilliant ideas on what I should do to correct course with the diary?

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
The topic of corporate profits (0.00 / 0)
is complex.  Much ink has been spilled - I looked at it when I still was under the delusion that I was going to actually complete my PhD in finance.  This is a topic that is easy to get research grants to fund work (for obvious reasons) and the literature can best be described as dense, technical, and an excellent antidote for insomnia.  Try looking at something like the Journal of Financial Economics.  

And yet it is at the very heart of the debate between liberals and conservatives.  You are on the right track - this is a topic that deserves research.  



[ Parent ]
Okay, My Friend (0.00 / 0)
I'm now in the serious business of soliciting advice about what would be a superior metric to get at what I'm concerned with.  Any bright ideas?

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"

[ Parent ]
There are two issues here (4.00 / 1)
1.  Is the Stock Market price supportable?
2.  Has the relationship between capital and labor changed so that capital share is larger than in the past.

The best metric to measure the Dow would be the price/earning ratio.  The PE ratio measures the relationship between corporate profits and the price of a given stock. You can take this measure for the market as a whole to see if something was out of whack - but I don't think it really was before the most recent crash.

To my mind, the better question to ask is raised in my second issue.  I have posted the chart below before here.  It shows how the share of income going to labor is decreasing.  It really is, I believe, the question of out times, and it raises many questions.  One question in this context is whether the growth in corporate profits required to support the stock market (this is the earnings part of the equation I introduced above) is sustainable.  Clearly at one level corporate profits are growing in part because labor is getting screwed.  But what if there are limits on the ability of corporations to extract concessions from labor?  That would imply corporate profits will not grow as fast as anticipated.  



[ Parent ]
These Are Good Points (0.00 / 0)
But not the whole picture I'm trying to capture here, as there's also the issue of how much money is just being made chasing money.

It's no longer just stock prices we're talking about, but the vast, intricate world of derivatives, swaps, hedge funds, etc. that accounts for a great deal more economic activity that's quite far removed from the basic economic world of tangible goods and services.  So do you have any thoughts about expanding on the above to address this as well?  

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
hmm (0.00 / 0)
i'm not sure about this, but i think the p-e ratio would reflect at least some of that.  If the price is inordinately high compared to their profits, that's a reflection of illusory wealth - and what is that wealth built on?  Mass psychological failure by investors.  

But I think the underlying economic results that stem from that are, as you're saying harder to get at- or at least I don't know how to do it in a concise way given minimal training.  What you could do is look at a sectoral breakdown over time of the us. economy if one is available-- I know India does a somewhat crude one and a detailed one, with the strengths and weaknesses that come with both.  Though given the much lesser extent of the real economy the government actually controls/measures, it's a different state of affairs than in the U.S.


[ Parent ]
Lots of problems (4.00 / 1)
Greg points out one problem with this analysis, global rather than strictly domestic profits. But it isn't the biggest.

Certainly the most serious problem is that stock prices are nominal, while the GDP growth shown here is real. (I am assuming this, since the chart shows GDP growing by 20 times since 1913; obviously on a nominal basis the increase is much larger than that.) If you use nominal GDP, then GDP has grown from $39 billion in 1913 to $13 trillion in 2007. (Source) In 1980, GDP was $2.8 trillion (nominal), while the Dow was at around 800. So GDP increased roughly five times (not twice, as shown in the above table) while the Dow rose by around 10 times.

This seems entirely reasonable, given that (1) a larger share of GDP is produced by public corporations than in 1980; (2) US corporations produce global, not just domestic profits; and (3) corporations have successfully crushed the labor movement, allowing a greater share of company productivity gains to flow to capital rather than labor.

Valuations, as measured by P/E ratios, have risen since 1980, but not by much.


And I see... (4.00 / 1)
a whole bunch of people pointed this out while I was typing.

[ Parent ]
Well, On The Plus Side (0.00 / 0)
I sure learned that folks ARE paying attention.

Now, if I could only say as much for myself, in this humiliating instance!

"Senate passes expanded GI bill despite Bush, McCain opposition"


[ Parent ]
a suggestion (0.00 / 0)
it's a bit time consuming but:

look at historical Price to Earnings ratios for DJIA compared to DJIA (or the same for S&P; 500 - I did both recently and the charts are readily available).  You may also want to stick GDP in there (thoguh I would stick to the post WWII period if you're using American GDP - if you're including the whole period, I would use global GDP).  Something in there might get you closer to what you want to look at - the way the stock market is or is not related to "fundamentals").  Or you can do anecdotal stuff by looking at, say, the enormous size of the Yen Carry trade.

I would be surprised, though, if someone hasn't already written  on the disconnect in  the last 25 years between the stock market and the real economy - you can probably piece something together from what others have written.

Keeping in mind that GDP is only the government accounted for economy - many countries don't include the rest of the economy in their accounts (domestic labour, "informal" economy, etc.), which, for most of the people in the world, constitutes a sizeable if not overwhelming percentage of their economic activities.  So ultimately you're looking at the connection between finance capitalism and productive capitalism that is organized and observed (controllable) by governments, not the real economy of the world.

hope this helps!


oops (0.00 / 0)
i'm mainly seconding fladem's useful suggestions :)  carry on!

[ Parent ]
At the risk of making more of a fool of myself (0.00 / 0)
let me acknowledge that I know little or nothing about finance (despite a limited background in economics).  But I still wonder if it isn't possible to do something simple like Paul was saying originally.  And I'm really asking this question--I'd be interested if those out there who know all the details could respond.

The "real Dow" is incredibly simplistic, basically laying a percent increase average line across the Dow over time. Assuming this is correct, what it shows to a total novice like me, is that there is something radically different about the returns on investment in recent years.  

http://www.itulip.com/realdow.htm  

If the returns skyrocket, then one must assume that something fundamental has changed.  If something fundamental has not changed, then regardless of all the other machinations, the return is simply unsupportable.  And given that the past data indicates that something fundamental really hasn't changed much in the past, despite all of the incredible shifts in the economy over that time, it seems unlikely that something fundamental has changed today.  People made the argument before the Dot Com bubble that something fundamental had changed allowing a fundamental alteration in the returns on investment and in the operation of the market, as I dimly understand.  But clearly it hadn't.  

The point is not that this explains anything profound about what is happening specifically today, or predicts where the stock market will stabilize.

Feel free to ignore but I'm interested just as a lay person.

http://educationaction.org


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