Is McCain Ahead By More Than Polls Show?

by: Chris Bowers

Tue Sep 09, 2008 at 14:00


Jerome Armstrong thinks that polling right now is even more favorable to McCain than it looks, because there are too many Democrats in the surveys. As evidence, he points out that McCain is well ahead among independents, and so the only way Obama can still be close is if there are more Democrats in the electorate than there have been in recent elections. The rather obvious rebuttal is that there might very well be more Democrats in the electorate than recent elections, especially since most polls indicate there will be more.

I used to bother looking at the partisan make-up of polls. I don't bother anymore. Four years ago, I learned my lesson, and since that time I have decided to stop trying to be more clever than scientific experiments of public opinion. There is only one scientifically valid way to determine the percentage of self-identified Republicans and self-identified Democrats in the electorate: conduct a public opinion survey measuring the number of self-identified Democrats and the number of self-identified Republicans in the electorate. The percentage of self-identified Republicans and self-identified Democrats in a poll cannot be determined by deductive reasoning before surveys. It has to be conducted through inductive data collection by surveys.

If we want accurate information from polls, we cannot impose our assumptions on top of the data. As such, in order to determine the state of the campaign, rather than looking at internals of individual polls, I now try to look at the broad trend across all polls. National polling trends like the one at Pollster.com will almost always be within 2-3% of the actual margin. That is really about as accurate as I feel the need to be, especially since being accurate to less than 2% on a regular basis might not even be possible.

McCain maintains his lead in the Gallup poll today, apparently stabilizing at a 5% lead for now. However, that is the best poll for McCain, with no other outlet showing him up by more than 2%. Three (New Diageo shows McCain +1%) Two polls show a tie, and two even show Obama ahead by 1% (ARG and ABC-WaPo RVs). Given that these polls are all trying to measure the same reality, right now it is likely that reality is somewhere between the two ends of the spectrum. Obama isn't ahead by 1%, but McCain isn't ahead by 5%. It is probably, as Pollster.com posits, McCain by about 1-2% right now. That is both the mean and the median of the nine national polls conducted entirely since the convention (note: I am not including the poll showing Obama up 5%, since it was conducted partially before Palin and McCain spoke). Given that those nine polls utilized about 14,000 interviews, I find it pretty hard to argue with that data. So I won't.  

Chris Bowers :: Is McCain Ahead By More Than Polls Show?

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Good analytical post, Chris. (0.00 / 0)
I think I've been hanging around dkos too long.  I enjoy the substantive content here.  Thanks.

One question.  Back in 2006, I discovered you at MyDD before I even found Daily Kos and I used to read your congressional candidate stuff. Will you be doing that this year?  


Coward! (4.00 / 2)
Given that those nine polls utilized about 14,000 interviews, I find it pretty hard to argue with that data. So I won't.  

Unlike the heroic John McCain, you won't fight for America!  Who cares what the data say???

Polar bear farts cause global warming!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3


Chris (4.00 / 2)
Has never been a POW.

[ Parent ]
John McCain Couldn't Fart For 5 1/2 Years! (4.00 / 1)
He was in prison!

"You know what they say -- those of us who fail history... doomed to repeat it in summer school." -- Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Season 6, Episode 3

[ Parent ]
That helps explain (0.00 / 0)
The sudden current buildup of greenhouse gases....

[ Parent ]
Anyone else notice... (4.00 / 3)
that Jerome at MyDD has slowly become a concern troll? He's always been skeptical of Obama as a GE candidate, which is fine, but his posts have been really Chicken Little of late, with little substance backing up his off-the-cuff remarks on how Palin is the scourge of the world and Obama is really far behind, etc. Could he possibly be bitter that his candidate lost the primary ...

This has been going on... (4.00 / 3)
For months now...

[ Parent ]
Unity (0.00 / 0)
For all the talk of party unity now, I'll never forget the stupid things that Hillary said during the primaries, and the racist attacks that came out of her campaign, and how people like Jerome Armstrong defended them all.

Sure, we're unified now, but that doesn't mean that I forgot who the fucktards are.


[ Parent ]
Jerome A. is the illustration (4.00 / 2)
Progressive bloggers are fond of scoffing at the insularity of the DC elite and punditry and how incestuous it is. In particular, one of our pet peeves was how people proven to be gigantic fucktards in the run-up to the Iraq War are still allowed to write commentary and provide advice and "insight".

Jerome A. is the illustration that people are casting stones in a glass house. The fact that he is still linked to and mentioned as a serious analysts by other serious progressives after the way he behaved in the primaries and some of the utter non-sense he spouted out as analysis at the time (that was proven spectacularly wrong) shows that bloggers are just as incestuous as pundits are.
Yeah, I get it. Kos is a good friend of Jerome A. and tried hard not to get into a fight with him.

But dude's credibility is way gone and we would use our time in a better way if we focused on other people worth our time. People like this should be ignored.


[ Parent ]
I agree (0.00 / 0)
I completely respect Jerome's support of HRC during the primary and I personally believe HRC would ave been a wonderful GE candidate.  I, like 99% of other progressives, would have supported HRC with everything in me if she had won the nomination.  Jerome, on the other hand, is part of the 1% that just can't let go and it is evident that he simply despises Obama.  


[ Parent ]
Look Out For Snipers (0.00 / 0)
Of course. I'd be behind HRC now too if she were the nominee. But I would never, ever excuse the racist things that Bill said on her behalf, or how HRC ignored them, or the entire idiotic sniper episode. I'd admit that they were what they were, incredibly stupid.

[ Parent ]
But We're Supposed to Excuse Obama's Sexism and Racist Undertones? (0.00 / 0)
This is exactly why Obama isn't running away with this thing as he should, given the discrediting of the GOP brand over the past 8 years, specifically the last two. This is also why white women in general according to the new polls are moving to McCain as well. Obviously, you're a jackass who doesn't get it, much like Obama and his crew. "99 Problems (But a Bitch Ain't One)" may have been his theme song during the primaries, but it's going to be his lament come the GE.

After telling Hillary supporters and oldtime Dems they aren't needed, these people have taken the hint and going to someone who does appreciate them, and their dollars as well. I see Obama's fundraising isn't going great guns, but what did he expect? That Hillary supporters should be masochists and financially support someone who doesn't care about their concerns? Get real.

You just keep calling the Clintons racists and see where that gets you and Obama, as there are at least 18 million voters who'd disagree with you who the real racists in this election season have been.


[ Parent ]
Which Undertones Are Those? (0.00 / 0)
Please present examples.

Here's the debunking of your claim about the Jay-Z song. What you're claiming to have happened never actually happened.

So again, please present examples. I dare you to come up with a single one.


[ Parent ]
Possible? Try certainly (0.00 / 0)
Heck, he says that Obama's a far weaker candidate than John Kerry in '04 or Al Gore in '00.

Nothing would make Jerome happier than seeing Obama lose. Who can forget his attacks on Oprah, pro-choice groups, and the war in Afghanistan during the primaries?


[ Parent ]
Slowly? (0.00 / 0)
More like smoothly segued into concern trollery from spittle-flecked Obama hatred. Given his ridiculous behavior during the primaries, I can't believe any reputable Democratic weblog is still taking anything Armstrong says seriously enough to comment on it. The guy has gone around the bend and ain't coming back anytime soon.

[ Parent ]
Patience (0.00 / 0)
Deja 1976 Carter/Ford, still exhausted from Watergate, I wished I could pull a Rip Van Winkle and wake up and have someone tell me who won.  Well, it's 76 all over again.

Except, we haven't had the seminal real (as opposed to staged) events, the three debates and I'll add a fourth, the Palin interview(s).

If these are the numbers on Oct. 15th you bet your butt I'd be upset.  For now, I've got too much time on my hands.

Question for Chris; I just looked at one of the many electoral college polling sites, they have today - O 281, M 230 tied 27.  August 30 they had it O 278, M 247, tied 13 which is pretty close to what you show.  How and why do you see the nationals going one way and the states holding or going towards Obama, or is this a mirage?


Jerome's analysis based on bounce poll. (4.00 / 1)
Do you realize that Jerome's analysis cites to and is based on data from a Gallup Poll on Independents conducted over the 3 days following the RNC.

That Gallup poll is practically meaningless (unless you're really into analyzing ephemeral bounces)in terms of predicting the final outcome among independents.  Yet, Jerome - every so eager to bring down this Democratic ticket - completely fails to mention that.

The Gallup poll, if taken again today, would likely show drastic movement to Obama among independents.  The Gallup poll, if taken a week from today, would show even greater movement to Obama among independents.  

This is easy stuff people.  A poll taken over the 3 days following a convention is meaningless as to final election outcome. Geeeez.


Why would you waste any blog realestate on Jerome's "analysis" (4.00 / 2)
He only comes out from under the bridge when he has "evidence" that supports his narrative.  I don't know any of his history, prior to this election year I never visited these blogs, but since I have diligently been following the writers on KOS, MyDD, and OpenLeft.  Jerome seems to me to be hanging around only in the hope of being able to say "I told you so".  I don't know if Jerome has a crush on Hillary, or his lost pal Alegre, but his despise for Obama is evident in every item Jerome writes; for a so-called progressive it is reprehensible.

Yes, Jerome wants to be proven "right" (0.00 / 0)
about Obama as a GE candidate. And yes, the poll he cites is a "bounce" poll. But ...

Be honest, everyone who panned Hillary's GE potential and thought Obama couldn't lose if he could just get past the primaries:

Wasn't his overwhelming success among Independents supposed to be his strength?

As many of us pointed out at the time, "Independent" is not synonymous with "Moderate". Independents run the gamut from too-liberal-for-the-Dems to too-conservative-for-the-GOP. And Indies that vote in Dem primaries are not the same animal as Indies who vote only in GE's. I'm afraid Obama's strategists made the same bad assumption.


I think everyone agrees that Jerome has an agenda (0.00 / 0)
But on independents I'd much rather see some polling in a week or two when McCain isn't still basking in the glow of his convention bounce. And Chris is correct, much of the conventional wisdom is now being based on Gallup and Gallup alone. Sure, they are they oldest company and deserve respect but it seems clear to me that they are seriously out of whack on this. Unless they have brought Ann Selzer on board.

[ Parent ]
Let me reverse this (0.00 / 0)
It seems clear that this election is going to be won on independents.

Wasn't that her weakness all along ?


[ Parent ]
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